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437- Science Vs Snakes

2021-03-30 | 🔗

More than 100,000 people die every year from snake bites. Snake venom can have up to 200 different toxins inside it and each toxin has a different horrible effect to your body. Some attack your muscles, while others attack your nerves. And sometimes two different toxins can work together to form an even more sinister combination. Part of the reason people are dying is because they're not getting antivenom - the medicine required to fight these horrible toxins - fast enough. The system we have to create snake antivenom is a time-consuming and inefficient process that basically hasn't changed for more than 100 years.

This is a collaboration with the great podcast Science Vs from Gimlet

Science Vs Snakes

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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ruining your career and how to handle conflict at work. Check out work life without em grant. Wherever you get your broadcasts. This is ninety nine percent, invisible, I'm roman, Mars people is it conservationist and why a job. Title doesn't sound, exciting he's. sickly gee, I Joe, but for nature, Easter, whalers and the Pacific Ocean. He rescued a dolphin held captive. The indonesian resort and he's been stabbed twice. That's those signs verses when these are common, who pretty sure has only been stopped once and recently piecework brought him too. Costa Rica and that's where his luck almost ran out. This was just before Christmas. Pete was deep in the rain forest
same, and they were looking for evidence of illegal logging and hunting picture it. It's a lush forest, the canopy very highly, but it often bear up and build up their real street he's got the most ferocious ends, What are you a poisonous spies day online at present, one of the trees, every spiky prank solemn? So it would be really keep working. That's paint a mile. He was walking very carefully through the rain forest. Something got him countless buying in the back of my leg, and my first thought was somebody hit me like it felt like someone had had a big stick, they wouldn't and where the back, unlike half, look down and then horror? I see the snakes or recoiling a wife for me with its with a suitor heat, and it was sticking about two feet off the ground. There is also a bad luck. I knew was a fool ass, the first plants or spearhead, is the most deadly snake
in Central America right away in paid colleague grabbed his cell phone. He had one bar of reception and called up emergency services. They didn't make it here, you need to get their God or hospital as quickly as possible. Lorry is gonna, die PETE had made six hours to get to a hospital and to get there. He had to dodge all the spy. and spiders and other snakes in the rain forest. They had two options: he could go up on the ridge of the mountain which would use up his six hours or he could go down through money. Creeks they'll be harder, but also Foster and he might get to the hospital in time or maybe looking at my back on my phone and thinking, You know the only option here we need to go down one of these great bids, so The crawling on my ass, Cooling, down these little waterfalls, escarpments banks but as we going down on getting weaker and weaker and destroying their
smoothed all the way up to my growing area and eventually get sustains. You I just want to sleep, but I did think I'm not gonna. Might this. My number was up after trudging his way through waterfalls and Mud PETE arrived at the edge of the rainforest and onto a bait. When he saw the coastguard below me down on the ground in Romania, just closing moisten, forgive you hang on a little bit. More hang on a little bit more. He arrived at the hospital around three now, of hours after he was beaten. His house, racing and he passed out when he came to he started talking doing everything that was going on good afternoon, we are in the world of the Gaza Uptight onward. What's happened over the last few days by the time he got it a hospice, the snake venom had begun to destroy his muscles and blood vessels. Pete's leg had ballooned to double its size and add something else. It happened. A warning were about to talk about
metals, Lloyd, go brilliant black! it is not an uncommon thing that happens with snake got victims that doesn't make it stop crying should a member from Moscow, and that is what this is normal. I seek a moment you kind of maybe to turn things around. The doctors had injected PETE with snake anti venom it race to his body, fighting back against the toxins and quickly it was clear it worked, PETE was going to be ok, a day eleven he was up and about failing and I started walk around for Vista my walked, and if you didn't get on tv What would have happened if I didn't get any being a mother died. No christian souldiers, pretty lucky. well. That is a dramatic story Wendy, but
Are you telling us about it? If I were, I really want to move into the pot of this story where he gets that treatment that stuff that saved his life. That's the intake. that neutralizes adoptions, exactly the anti venom super got it and he survived, but many people around the world. They answer lucky. Some hundred thousand people die every year from snake bites a hundred thousand and you can bear to shocks they kill. The about six people globally every year and so out of the reason that people are dying from snake bites is because they are not getting anti venom fast enough, and this is for a bunch of reasons, but the one I want to zoom in on is the way that we make anti venom, because the system we have now is this complicated time consuming inefficient process that in many ways, hasn't changed for more than a hundred years.
Oh yes, and why is it so hard to make Antipater? It all boils down to the thing that we're battling against its this stuff that we're trying to save ourselves from the venom. It turns out that snake venom is truly nefarious and I spoke to Christine as again accrue study snake venom at the University of Queensland in Australia about this, and she gonna told me all the horrible. ways that snake venom can kill. You psych you're, almost skidding digested alive said, is that the votes on the bottom of the wages of the beginning since Thursday that can have up to two hundred different toxins inside it, and each of those toxins have so slightly different tasks. So some sad attacking your muscles.
This attack your nerves and sometimes two different toxins can work together to really messes up. You ve got one talk, then that's pretty bad on its own and another, while that's pretty bad on its own, but will you put them together and they like tag team against you, oh yeah. exactly the same Indeed, I mean, like that's from a scientist weighed up against visit. This is why she's talking about this is how the state better be saying suck eggs you could have we talks it that is going through your body and making it difficult for your blood to Claude
and then at the same time, another talks in that is kind of making. You bleed out, like its punching holes in your blood vessels. You ve got a whole caused by the toxins. That's now open and here's your spewing out red blood cells and plasma and platelets, but all of a sudden you can't stop the bleeding. In that area. Corzine says that sometimes people can bleed from all over the body yeah debt. So, like your your guns from your eyes, sometimes your ears or or Europe your sphincter, your butt hall and an even. If it's really bad, there was a type can bite in Austria where guy was it seemed like he was sweating blood from his back, oh and so, with your bodies, inability to Claude and prevent this internal bleeding little bit by little bit really becomes a serious problem, pretty quick
so basically what this means is to make. It anti riot against snake venom, we need to have something that can battle against that soup of toxins and the thing is you actually need different anti venom for different snakes. So what saved peeps life with the fertilizer anti venom that wouldn't have worked if gotten bit by an old, a black man by snake, and if you are PETE who can recognize affordable you can be a real trouble there I mean you actually could and paint took a photo of the snake. He knew it was a fat landscapes he's bade his J, AI joy, they took a vital and showed it to the doctors at the hospital. So what If you take the wrong and over it, probably wouldn't work like a wouldn't do anything, but a mine didn't have the Federalist Anti venom for paid. Then he D probably would have died now to be clear if you take correct, anti venom it works and in this can save lives
You know the snake and there's an intervention for great, but you mentioned that making this ain't, a venom, is complicated all process. What he's out another? Let me you're a little janni of how we make anti venom today. It all starts with a kind of snake. whisperer, hello Wendy, so my name is good evening, Corrales Cravens work which makes for about a decade and he loves them, but they snakes doubt always love him several years ago, a Sri lankan Green pit Viper bit his pinky finger. When you look, your finger now. What does it look? I actually. Lots of little middle part of my finger, slag wasn similar less than it used to be. Oh I love it's. Nice were crouching you. I gotta have this attitude. If you do what graven does he work?
I've been Costa Rica called the clutter, Miro Picasso Institute and they make the anti venom that saved PETE flies Inside Cravens workplace. There arose of boxes filled with snakes, so we have about five hundred. This makes their we're. Ok, cook up anti venom. First up, we need venom from a snake so to make that stuff a pay graven had to go to a box with a fairyland in it. We know before we open the box, it's gonna fight because they are very explosive. These tried many times graven and his colleagues carefully. Take this rising angry snake out of the box using wooden Paul's. Then they sedate the snake by putting it in the basket with carbon dioxide gas. When it goes under when its sedated. How long do you have before wakes up generally arrive or minutes? Five minutes?
so what's going through your mind as you're doing this, I know it sounds kind of crazy book nothing like in these momentum. I have to be very focus. you're holding not just a snake, but your partners, life in tat moment. You can feel now fear you have to be fearless and then Graven picks up the snakes had all his colleagues holds. The snakes body and then graven. Looks the snake. What is what is making the snake entail? I'm so glad you asked. Let me get this fight. I fly ok, oh my goodness. Ok holdings egg and does a metal object? Prying, the mouth open and the fangs or popped out and their bring
the snakes head to a jar to collect the venom. Yes, this is graven in the picture. You can see that he's index finger is kind of over the top of the snakes ed? What he's gonna be squishing down on is the venom gland of the snake, which is like this pouch. Basically, that's filled with venom, so we have do a little massage mean guys like a massage year, s eyes gravity drive. tell me what this feels like as someone who's, never motor snake and- and he was like it's you just couldn't tell you say it's nothing. You ve ever felt for the closest thing he got always used like it's a bit like. If you imagine a slice of overt our age under snakes Dead and your kind of like squishing, the orange and
The juice comes out of the snake fangs. As I was a little talk, it's not like squishy. It had some resistance for you personally, back the head and pushes out a little bit of venom. Yes, well yeah an graven says that he can get around a teaspoon of venom from one fairyland snake, Ok! So now he's muscle under the venom out of the snake into ajar. What happens to the venom then again, is where it gets caught a ridiculous because it ours will only needed for it to get ridiculous, look We need a second group of animals, oh goodness, and we're going to call it the cavalry we literally data files of horses, woe! Okay! This is a turn
the sub loves to use shape, but basically we need a large edible for reasons that will become clear later, but at this centre, where page eighty venom was made, there is about a hundred and twenty horses, and there is also this guy crisis. Maria Gutierrez were really fantastic animals. They have names. They have names like they were it was one horse went they may with my name. So I was very proud of their crazy Maria is a professor at the global media, Dakota Institute or actor they using all these horses, because the anti, venom is actually gonna, be created inside the horses body and he's how so crazy Maria's tame will take that venom that graven cooks doubted the snake, and then you jerk liberal amounts of them into horse and when, when,
the horses first injected with say a tiny amount of venom. How did they react to the available Now? What do you think it would be like it like a mosquito bite? I feel be a little more than that, because we are rejecting a toxic substance. Suitors is hurt the whole Well, we'd. Never shock is the horse doesn't or human speak, but What we can tell there's a little butter swelling around where they do the injection nothing to serious there and they just injecting tiny, tiny amounts and what's gonna happen. Next, is that the horse is gonna, be injected with venom every two weeks or so, and what they doing is actually waiting for the horses immune system to stop building up antibodies against the venom. That's what we're here to harness that is actually the anti venom another way to think about it is that you kind of vaccinating the horses against the wind
and then, after several of these injections, usually a couple of months. For instance, at that point the horses are bled they take around six liters of blood, which sounds like a lot, but I say Maria says it's kind of the horse equivalent of donating a bag of blood at a blood bath Ok, it's not so bad! You get a cookie! You get someone to do right by today, and this is actually why we need horses because buildings, big animals that can do a lot of blood. So after all this, we get the very thing that we ve been waiting for this miraculous drug that can fend off that super complicated cocktail of venom. The horse antibodies. Their purified, then freeze dried and put into a vile, and that is the staff that gets injected into people like pay so recently borders. This horse borders would get into the bloodstream, they find the taxes and then they block the action of the toxic and so, and so, even though we say anti,
but he's as if it's like one thing within that vile of anti venom, there could be fifty different anti bodies that go after fifty different toxins in the blue. Exactly, I truly is a mixture of anti bodies and their antibodies against each of the talks, and we need horses bidding. Because that is big animals and making donate a lot of blood and all actually have a similar enough immune system to us, so their anti bodies work for humans, crazy Maria reckons that each bag of horse. I guess you enough anti venom to treat around fifteen people. It's it's supercool process and fascinating, but it also seem just. Eighty complicated yeah and then just to add a tiny bit more complexity here is to make anti venom for all the venom mistake. In the world. You actually need to inject horses with this specific venom, although snakes in the world and as a means of Scotland
Z in Indonesia, in India, in Egypt, in South Africa, in Australia, but it just piled high with horses all getting injected with venom, and the thing is, We basically made anti venom the same way since the late eighteen hundreds were Really, nothing has changed in the timber. Does that the personnel and the horses, but does the same process. There have been some improvements like in some cases. For example, the horses were going through this whole process at instead of just being injected with one kind of venom they'll be injected with three different kinds of venom said I mean they'll make all these anti body for then three different kinds of venom through took a little bit more efficient than the process is still basically the same age ass. I think that sir, yes, Sir I guess the obvious question is it You know we ve been doing this for a hundred plus years.
Why are we so doing this way like? Why haven't we come up with a better way to do? This is a great question and I think the dream for a lot of the people who work on this problem is to create a universal anti venom. So is something that you could make in a lab and that could be used for heaps of different kinds of thanks for black members for federal ads for rattlesnakes in you wouldn't need to go through this Whole process so many times in so many different countries, soon supervising why don't we just do that? Isn't it's not. easy. It takes a lot of time at innovative, big, add the big thing is money and for a long time no one was
Billy putting a lot of money into this space and that's for all kinds of complicated raisins, but if we had to boil down to a word, I would say that word was capitalism, sir, as as we talked about state by its kill around a hundred thousand people every year. This is a serious problem but most of those debts are happening in rural areas in Africa and Asia. For people who cannot afford a lot of money. For me education and drug companies haven't put a lot of funding. Into this to try and make things better. Basically, but since twenty seventeen things have started to change,
what happened in twenty seven day, while the World Health Organization gave snake bites this special designation, they listed them as the most important kind of neglected tropical diseases. Besides terribly nerdy em in the weeds, but basically or a means for disease, is that it's it's catlike winning an Oscar. You get extra attention, you get extra, money that is basically what's happened. We ve seen this real change in. What's going on, you know, you see more research in this space and after more than a hundred years of making anti venom with the horses and the snakes, now there's all these new ideas on the horizon and cursing Maria says that this has all been huge. Things have really changed worldly generally Spain, much more attention to this disease, It's really excited so now that snake bites have gotten.
the amount of attention they deserve, where our with the universal and we started. See some really exciting things in the science, so one of them is that, at the same time as snake might have gotten all this extra attention Science has also develop these better tools to be able to look inside venom and analyze those toxins away where realizing is that, even though there are thousands toxins doing slightly different things. You can actually group them together into families of toxins and then try and tackle those families, and it's a much easier target. You can even think about it like this your basketball fan not especially Bush much continue on actual huge runs. Google, and in the voting rights it is this kind of AL. I've been thinking about the way that the attack leg this universal eighty, better problem,
if say you're in the NBA, and you ve gotta play against hundreds of players in the leg. One way to do that would be to try like figure out the defence of all the individual players. You know you carry, Braun had even all the middle level players and the ones on the bench like even born. You ve got to work out, what's going on with him work of course I mean, I think, about bovine all the time, but I guess continually I'm to assume that bovine is is not exist, we'll abroad or a curry, but he's doing his best. Exactly are you gonna work at each get to play is individual, tricks. Instead, what we're doing now is way just looking at what the big dangerous play is doing and grouping them together and then working out a defence against them so just focusing on staff curry and all the current copycats out their own government. And so if you know that the talks in your hits alive. three pointers: your basically like making
A medicine to deal with that particular attack, it's the Anti three pointer medicine. Exactly exactly. and so has this approach been working so far has been going well. So, for example, there's this big family of enzymes, that a swimming inside venom and what they do is damage blood vessels and they call metallic protein ices and they found in vipers. All around the world, and so scientists have now been searching for a way to basically stop Mattel approach. Noises from working this is one of those scientists Gawain introduce yourself. So I'm Laura Glasgow. I work at the Liverpool School of Tropical medicine and scientists like Laura, I trying to figure out how to protect us against that big family of nasty enzymes and to do that. She's been thinking well, do the enzymes need to survive and they discovered that one of the things these enzymes need is sink and Laura,
Is this actually already a drug on the market? The message would think so: Lorna Tame took this drug and then combined with another drug and then enlisted some heroic little white mice, checked them with some snake venom from some of the most dangerous eggs in the world, we are looking at vipers from a guy from India from Central America. They waited a bit to let the venom set in then gave them the concoction the two drugs. Now, if this didn't work most likely, these mice would all die within a four hour window, but instead the team so something different them started moving around sniffing. They seem to be recovery these Mozart still alive and and look Halsey. Now you see, I was feeling great. I didn't expect it to work so well against.
That are so different from each other, yet you work for vigilance from Central America. And then an Asian did he had so scaled viper. Is that in their while those of anti venom this it is amazing, it's really great, really important. They have it. After a hundred years of needing to inject horses with all these different kinds of venom, Laura's drug has worked, we did at Roman, but we do not do it doesn't huh signs works is one clinical tests doesn't do it now and actually one of them. I stayed Eighteen hours later Fahd, but robot. This tactic is actually showing so much promise that there's already a clinical trial in humans underway. That's folks on another drug that messes with zinc. That's great- and this is a completely
from approach a mean using drugs rather than using antibodies from another animals like his camp. novel Happily, I mean it's it's novel in the world of snake buyers, but it's what we do for basically every other disease out there and any nor the anti venom that we have now it does work when you can get it and so scientists to thinking that. Maybe in the short term, we might have these new HU an exciting treatments, the kind of work, alongside the anti venom from the horses. It's funny because, like You know we spent a year with coal nineteen, and We saw a series of vaccines go from designed a trial to approval in under a year, and that's it how science normally works ever usually It's a process where you try things illogical, his die? And after years of experiments, we maybe we have a small breakthrough. Yeah I mean I think there Nineteen story, it could tell us two things and Tom will tell I perhaps this virus
was actually surprisingly easy to make a vaccine for, and we will have a lucky and dead nasty virus. Could it come around that we couldn't have had a vaccine for, but maybe the other, less here is that if scientists get loads of money and basically, you encourage nerds from all around the world to tackle a problem that they could solve it very quickly. A Manhattan project or ill, sending a person to the moon in just like you. but our money and will bind it. You can make it happen exactly exactly ends maybe that will happen with snake anti venom too. If enough scientists in there's enough excitement around this area, please more question before we go like what haven't PETE. He got bit by the snake. He nearly died, Is he still trips nor around? As this concept? China's Diego? Yes there's no change impact whatsoever
He's still in Costa Rica, he's gonna be patrolling the jug pursued at his ease. Eddies is leg, is due to arrive. In the meantime, he actually still held a little place in his heart for the snake that got him. guy still alive and up their value damp, how the grudge against US don't hold a grudge against Snyder. Yours was just doing snipe things indeed as a good attitude. Thank you. Wendy thanks very much. strange, fascinating snake content with Wendy Superman. After this, yeah.
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so I'm back with Wendy Document from Science versus Wendy. Let us talk more about snakes. Yes, phase, Research is episode. I realise there were all these things about snakes that I had never thought about before, like they quite beautiful, they have all these different colours of the scales, and I also realise how little science knows about some. What I would have thought were pretty basic snake things like, for example, of bike scientist still Aunt Shaw. If snakes can hear the queue at all This is a doctor. Christine is identical. We we heard from in the first half of the show is she's, like you know, we Oh snakes can feel vibrations. That's what we're taught at an accident of utopia
in every stallion lies the city's snake. You gotta like stamp. Cafe, I'd really like to try and get them to do so. We knows things can feel vibrations, but we didn't know what they could. He is sounds through the air home and a big reason for that is that they dont have extent IE, is her which ever since she told me that I just constable magic extent. We that is the only way we really know is if they have big Ogier super Mcmanus on either hand. It's because I had this eat overload tabs upside just like we just, I think they can hear and then Christina heard. This kind of evasive I for one of her colleagues. Damien can do so, and I want to tell you it's only been so ways. It's like I caught imaginable stereotypical australian story. So I learned this is a precondition,
Timor, Americans body, but you're in a safe space here, Thankee Baking, so this guy ye sometimes makes the sound effects homes and noticed that while he was working on what he called low end frequencies, so think bombs exploding. You know that, like an enlightened earthquakes way he'd those tremors. Cinema and while he was killed, getting those sounds. You would notice that brown snakes would start slithering next to his house seemingly nowhere hidden Why it could have been a coincidence? It could have been that they were feeling vibrations all, maybe because they really could hear the sound waves through the air. So he ends up telling the story to Christina and Christine was I can't you know there are a few studies suggesting like maybe snakes can hear you are still. This
this debate, and so just this year they teamed up and decided to test it. We ve gotta shown for through, and we ve got nineteen catch of snake. What our team does, as they take the snake out of its holding, contain I'm out, essentially like a rubbish bin with holes in the lead revenue snake. With a hook, with his hand when it safe, men. They put the snake into this. Sound proof were gonna hafta. True, just secured the door for for security carcinogen. If I do it's literally fancier than the gimlet studio, is definitely more secure and then they give the snake some time to settle so then they Play some sounds through These very special set up. They have that's basically designed so that the sounds come through the air and they d
Make vibrations on the floor and then she's, basically recording the snakes behaviour just started: sound dropped. A lower jaw is quite interesting and defence impose she's thinking a tiny slightly moving around raised off the ground hearing into the distance, still thinking that time, not making any large movements. So what are they? Fine to do snakes actually hear the sound I get. She still analyzing the data, but he is what she told me about it. very interesting behaviors. I think it will be clear least with some of the individuals that their absolutely going to be aware of the sound. What I think is pretty. cool with what Christina is starting to say is that the
behaviors? She saying is really dependent on the individual snake right, and so he is he's what she said about how they respond. I think it seems to be based on individual personality or whether there are type of a timid snake or whether there sort of more Offensive and willing to give more defensive, behaviors and and by that new snake would be dropping their lower jaw to show their fangs or hissing, and you thought about snakes as having personality is: yes, We see it all the time tat my husband and I we have twenty four snakes as pets, and so we see it on a very intimate level. Once Nick doesn't like to be touched, another one could care less one. Basically, like falls asleep in your hands. You like this old man. He is literally twenty one years old, like in a two point, to meet a coastal type here, like the very sort of predictable in their personalities, and so,
You take this back to the experiment. So in the tape where we were hearing about the experiment, casinos describing the snake, the tea seeing and getting a pc at the sound, that's a coastal type ban, but it's not this sleepy guy that she's talking about that sleepy guy was also we make, merriment and she said that he basically fell asleep when he heard the sound of a perfect example of how she said these different reactions of by the way, just to get a sense of how big that sleepy stake is. She said, two point, two billion It's about the same height is born. The girl comes back to perform its intense. Take rang, did you ever think of snakes and having personal I mean I had a snake and I didn't have a lot of exposure that one seem to have. A personality was named to back. I was corn snake but like I Didn'T- have a lot of other states to comparative. So it had personality.
I didn't realize out may be different. It was from other accord snakes, but you know to use was a great snake and witnessed on occasion and then show up of four days later like right? Next to the fore, the cage oh wow, like a cat, like cats, do exactly It doesn't surprise me that they have some personality divide that one would you get really exercised upon I'm watching a Chris for no one movie and other one would be completely nonplussed by a group is new to me, though, that's fantastic, I need a science ethics alike it. Thank you thanks. A version of this
Zog can be heard on the wonderful podcast science verses production of Gimblet Spotify company. I'm a huge signs versus Van I've been a fan since the very first episode that I heard when they were just a little australian show and now they're this big global phenomenon, I'm so excited. We had the chance to work with them special. this week to when these are common and the whole team at signs versus including blights around rose, Rambler Merrill Horn, Dell rose Michel Dang and tailor white as a special thanks to Maxwell, Simeon Gimlet No m presentable whisperings this week by crisper, ruby music by our director of Sound Sean Rio Sound MAX. Bryce Barnes fact checking my Erika Chico Howard procedure There is the Lamy Hawker course there is. The digital directorate thrusting includes Emmett Fitzgerald, Joe Rosenberg Vivian lay Christopher Johnson Abbe, Madonna, Katy mingle. We're Glasgow and me roman Mars, whereby
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Radio do he there we ve got an update from another radio Tokyo show your hustle is back the seven seas and returned with a chicken and three unforgettable characters from past episodes of next stories about Jews and don't of prison, visiting rooms and how incarcerated people indulge in a little retail therapy, plus catch a kite returns with more answers. Solicitors, questions about life during and after incarceration and there's some good news from San Quentin to covet cases are down and incarcerated people and prison staff are starting to get vaccinated. That's all coming up this season on air hustle.
Transcript generated on 2021-03-31.