« Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

Adam Grant

2019-12-05

Adam Grant is an American psychologist and author who is currently a professor at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania specializing in organizational psychology and the host of the TED podcast WorkLife with Adam Grant. Adam visits the armchair expert to discuss overcoming introversion, being a super taster and the difference between givers and takers. Dax debates Adam on his latest Atlantic article and Adam talks about the importance of criticism. The two talk about growing up in Michigan, the necessity of tenure and how genius is often a result of quantity not quality.

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Well come on global armchair expert experts on expert. I'm your is it an expert Monica Pad Man and an eel air non resident expert tax shepherd. Today we have somebody that we ve talked about so much on the show and we had the deep, deep pleasure to sit down and meet him grant you ve US talk about animal bunch times on. Here is an american psychologists and an author whose currently a professor at the Wharton School of Business, of the universe Pennsylvania specializing, an organizational psychology he so fascinating is such an interesting way that he looks at the world in he's written a couple of books, originals how nonconformists move the world and given take. Why helping others drives our success? Now that's the thing that we really got infected with a lot of things but yeah. We talk about that
bed, Europe taker! You have always opposed to give her, even though you tried approved in one room. It was our shadow. Needless to say that he evaluates are giving and taking status, truly a beautiful guy, so excited that we met him and he's opened the door to all these other interesting people that will love. He has been so great heat, really is a given the gps giver. There is also he's got a new Jones book that I've written multiple times. My kids, it's out legitimately an awesome children's book called the gift inside the box, so please enjoy Adam Grant. We there are supported by Bob's, read now my favorite source of gluten free oatmeal. Every morning I just add that water stir stir stir I e in the car. While I drive Monica and ate it all the time in it so taste in acting like a million bucks after eighty, I have no residual issues. I just feel very fuelled for the day. Here's the best thing about treadmill they are teaming up with.
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it involved at Bob's, red male dot com, slash, no kin hungry he's Adam Grant. Welcome to armed your expert Baker The vigour first inform us, let's geek out for one second, that we're both for Michigan in not far apart either. Where did you grow up, I was brought home from the hospital to Highland Michigan. Then I moved Milford than we move back to. How do we move back to Melfort than I am of the world like then sell field than downtown Detroit, while so elements and junior high in Ireland and Milford, and then Highschool unwarlike in your always Bloomfield. I vow, though Aithra ok, what part of us move you fifteen and I should like, if that helps you. Oh absolute, value my God. Yes, let's see so you into West Bloomfield High School guilty. So your boy
Eighty one? Does that mean you graduated in like no ninety nine? Ninety I'm do you. Love all goes out, of course, Oda bread it's a manager. I wanna go to Michigan just for that suitors island imaging and either drove straight Lafayette, Coney Island or straight to all, Atossa pick your boys, orange cream cooler. Also, oh sure, Montgomery and I make you eat sums knacker, you did. They were really guy. I'm just saying that now, because you know it's important to him. Well, then that is a good thing to be said that they were good. I like, like every Dorcas, I get a model is from Georgia were crystal, is king. You know the little tiny their white castle burgers, but it's called risky. I've ever had, and it never even heard of it now we'll just for the right it really landmark Criswell the locals collar. Explore all like astrology argument. Would you tiny hamburger? Do you think it's a unique michiganders thing that we poor alike
everything I don't know. I actually had. There was the linguistic professor in college. Who would ask you for five questions and then could figure out what State Europe from enjoying Michigan? He only needed one or two questions. Oh really, it was always the. What do you call? This can have cook. Ok pop I afraid that your must then, which direction to drive to get to Canada was Ah, which is the strength is it used? I always thought it was. Then we go south together to get to the winds, the tunnel- I don't know, maybe bail out there I mean I think you're looking at it, gets either south or ease. Now sugar in general, how long's it been since you live there. I laughed and ninety nine and then went back to Michigan for grad School from three to seven. I guess it's been twelve years, twelve years, I wonder, do if you read by chance or the Malcolm Gladwin books have Kirsty. I think rightly seem very up. Your ally is regular. Sparring partner, ok ring so one thing that again
I grew up more and more hillbilly area more more than you did Milford. You said it not me, I'm saying that when you get to that chapter on the culture of pride, I was like, oh being go all the way bingo from where I grew up just like you can't look at a dude in a restaurant without having and walk outside and fight wanting you ass to look away or if you lock in you, commit to it. It could escalate to walk in outside. Once I moved to California I found out that was unique gather, I mean I don't even I didn't get that right. Also, cameras of herbs. There was no culture of honor. I think there is. There is a lot of status competition. Oh my god, yeah have either of you read Metapontines work popular now so Mitch daddy's popularity about mental psychologists. They find that their two paths to being popular one is, ass when you mean cooler than everyone else and the other is being likeable, I think they were revealed- is very much about status, not about like ability.
right now. Your dad was a lawyer and mom was a teacher. You have done your homework. Life has already. Events is job. Does at least twenty people are gonna. Listen I ever obligation in that. We have a real question. Did he say why some our status driven in summer, like ability driven, was our reasoning behind it? I don't think we know. I think that in most for most schools and for most kids, both tufts their options, and I think that, for whatever reason uttered. A status was just more visible ends. We grew up in an area where there are all these symbols. For us it is a lot of suvs, yet car among young Guam six years older than you and it was like Yahoo Mustang, Fiona Mustang, you were pretty much gonna. Take the fast pass up to some level of poppy early. I guess that's the Detroit thing in part. I think solve really thought about it before we even when I was reading. I think you reference that in your article, let's currently in the Atlantic. That is definitely that's true right.
and I went to you and I like, of course, Amigo Centric, and I thought about you and I and I thought you know your popularity stem from liability, yeah right, yes, in my mind, didn't, but that's really find, though the summit does where you popular, I always say no. I was well liked, but I believe it to be the same as a popular was status with one with a lot of cachet and status. I didn't think I had that. I didn't know that you will have been removed. We would use a definition of work. How many of you asked all thousand gives no school who knows Monica admin that you know if twenty percent said I know who she was and then give Turner. They said one yeah. You know your buyer more popular than the question is, will what's. Why? Are you more Pierre? That's true, okay! So now back to Europe, if you there was a lawyer and he didn't lose exclusively pro bono work probably could about you, Jordan, so
there is I e those in the house or some kind of a thought that was frivolous or silly. Why don't you have the good ship? My parents were definitely anti materialistic ya. Think our house with sir. You know where old marathon tee shirts everywhere or triathlon T shirts, then an almost, the question: why were they even once Bloomfield? I don't know actually, because that's where, if you, emerging in your climbing. The latter was Bloomfield the last out before Bloomfield Hills or Birmingham and an that's it you're at the top right yeah. That's right I'm not sure I have no idea. I know they both grew up into tried. I don't know how they end up there ask them: what parts did they grow up in a museum? They were both in Detroit proper or they weren't, yet okay, so they go just move out to this herbs. We found out how splendid area, right, it wasn't say, proximity to work for dad or anything are worded Monti. sometime in the North Arlington schools of Judea, yet another lovely,
area that somewhere mix of what's render Avogadro I'm. So you buckle the fuck up Monica because, where unify elsewhere, neither of us went to an ivy league. Schools were kind of obsessed with the status of it. You went to Harvard out of West Bloomfield High School, which makes me think you must have had like a four point three or some shit and a bunch of extra. I think about a fifth dark lasted right? Here's what I I assumed I was gonna. Go to Michigan Emission state like everyone here, I had a dream in September, my senior year high school that I went to Harvard never thought about it, and I said you know what I mean to apply rules. I started filling out an application didn't really tell anybody in. I was a diver Oh right, you are all american diver. I was fairly good enough that the coach kind I said yes, this guy is not terrible and we would welcome him under the team and said I guess that got stamped
this having achieved something, were you not labelled all american or maybe I do know that means I nine ninety, ninety nine Weena he all gosh you ve, never daughter. I met this guy doesn't very unpleasant side. Argue it feels now the IDA. I made some list of top divers, but I feel that the application- and you start it had to validate, like if you are a musician, somebody would have to prove that you are good at me they can rise, they had a diving coach. Look at my video in, and he said yes, you should visit. Then, a couple months later I got in and was shocked, yeah they. Actually, The thing I remember most clearly was getting in wanting to go, but then thinking I'm not any friends suppose you go to the same college is all your friends yeah, and so I started thing: searches on America online to find people undergoing has now you want to hang out with people put that in there profile than in the harbor search. I found a few and we started a little email list ends
at a time the sir they sprang pre freshmen visit rolled around. We connect about an eighth of the entering class online? Do we an early on mine social network, and then we got two campus. We were all rolling Cambridge now we know each other, we don't need the online socially. Work and we shut it down five years before remarked, started, U S prevented or use, but will you really have a vision anywhere near obviously what Africa? But it is amazing that look back at what was created and what it could have been. I feel like that tells me so much about you. I would have had a hard time making myself vulnerable enough to openly in search of friends. I would have felt like that would have made me a letter or look desperate, I'm not buying this year. The king of vulnerability now now have there have been a life and death illness that required meaning it's over and then learn these tools, but no, I I would have had a very hard time with that and in fact liquids strata. Were you in high school because we have the same paradigm? I would imagine what I guess cause you're an athlete. You you
bang athlete there right, diver too short for basketball, too weak for football too slow for trial that we weren't we were. It was kind of the swim team in the band, we're in the same level of coolness, okay, help me. If you went out of your waited to land at Harvard with a social group. It tells me that you were let you are actively engaged in trying to baby. I think also. I think I did it, though, in part, because I'm an introvert, ok felt like it was easier to reach out to people. And send an email is than it was too. I was really shy at the thought of approaching a stranger was kind of frightening face to face, and you know I can write these notes. I like to write,
and maybe I'll connect with some people, so you Landon Harvard, and you have friends in what did you get your undergraduate degree? As I say psychology, you did why. Why do you think your interest in psychology? I think it haven't for a few reasons. One had taken an interest I class in high school and thought it was just incredibly interesting to get inside the mind and figure out what makes us take yeah. I remember thinking about it that systematically, but looking back, I've had a lot of questions about why people do the things they do you I felt like we scratch the surface it out in this class and wanted to learn more about it. Also discovered, once I told my parents, I was thinking about majoring in psychology that my dad had been aside major old lady, I'm a dentist Ike Minor and neither of them ever told me but it was shorter than the water, so I I grew up as a kid thinking that normal family said things like self fulfilling prophecy arrived. I just thought that as part of the kind of the the bingo yeah, so either
it was in the water quite a bit right in, were you drawn because I took one as well in high school and I was drawn specifically to like the path. Allergies like I want to know about schizophrenia. I want to know about what personnel I want to know about psychopaths one. You know it's gonna drawn to that, but that's not what you were drawn it not as much. I thought it was interesting what really hooked we in psychology was the idea that I was learning things that could improve my life and other people's lives, and so I kind of what it is to say if we all understood our own minds better than we could probably live more productive. more meaningful lives and, let's figure out how to do that. Yeah right cause. You took tall bench a horse class. I do we have on the show that ever say yes and remember, he said then Adam was one of his best student, but he did so. in the area of Mayotte. Four of us.
Yoda borne out by MRS shot. Ok, so having him is it instructor? Was that life changing? Were you on that path already? Did he opened your mind to something now tell had a big impact on me so that the first thing he did was he convinced me to join a research lab and say: look you know you you don't just after the consumer of this knowledge is actually produce it and I thought was really exciting, actually didn't know it, professor stead, when I got to college, that their teachers young and having a lot of people, think that probably the discovery that there is its whole life of creating social science. I felt like okay. This is something I want to be involved in. and the other thing that happened ways towers was you know for meeting him he's extremely interesting no man. I was pretty empowering to see that somebody who is that withdrawn and not traditionally a charismatic person, outgoing tat gives such captivating lectures.
and so I think it he was an early roll out or to say you know that I can probably expand my comfort zone in now, that a discovery. So you meet him under the guise of used, the teacher and he's already in the throes of a lecture and he's probably very charismatic, and all these things did you. Let go visit him on office hours and go away this guys like me, they are actually did it before I even took his class at a first class. I had with him he was their heads yea and then there are a few other ts and I was assigned to somebody else, a section, but it was written up in due course evaluation guy, the towers, the the best of it yet somehow and so actually manufactured a conflict. I don't have one created. What am I schedule? So I couldn't go to the other section and then I was forced to go a tall us. Even those already fall, I remember waiting afterward to talk to him ends just feeling like wow. This is this. Guy is not you know, he's not a big performer he's, not showman yeah. She seems really cerebral and introspective, and I think maybe I could be
someone like that, when yeah, I think a lot of people would be shocked to know actors can often fall. To a similar yeah yeah like you often meet really charismatic act. prison in real life, there quite shy or their introverted or in all those things and so on We can tap into some soup. What I think in the case of many of those actors, they actually are playing a character, and I suspect that so was taught when he is the teacher. I think he probably clicks and do a liquor alternative identity. He has yeah. I think, that's true. I've. I've certainly felt that is well one of the things I do in class every are now is when we do personality. I have my students try to gas whether I'm an introverted, extrovert or amby Vert somewhere in the middle aha and the classes, usually pretty split in a bunch of people. Without ambiguity, just as most people are in the middle of the night. Well, this is this statistically smart
Scots yeah yeah, I'm always excited when they do that. But there are a lot of students who think I'm an extrovert ends. It is a performance rated, it's it's! not an actor, but my version of act where everyone is no right yeah, but I am not a skilled or four hundred Roma reckless declare, but there is an element of saying look. I didn't choose. My personality so you know whether it's the you know the dopamine response that I haven't Mineo cortex. That makes me an interim or some other constellation of factors. That was an up to me, but I did choose my values. and I feel it sometimes. I have to be false, my personality in order to be true to my values. I love sharing knowledge, I'm really passionate about connected with students and trying to help them in the ways that some my teachers did me in. So that just feels like it sort of its become second nature, right. You can reverse engineer at a little bit right. I assume your comfort level now as a professor is much different through just muscle memory, but at job in its
way more comfortable? Now I remember my first year teaching act. I gave out feedback forms, so I could find out what I can prove and one of the most common comments was you're, so nervous your causing us to physically shaken our seats. their mere neurons, but over time that's changed quite a bed and spend enough time and big stages now that it started to feel more comfortable, but at first I would I was pretty obsessive about studying all their backgrounds cause it made them less intimidating. I felt like you. Instead of these super human achievement, robots or in my class there a bunch people with interested overlap with mine- and I can't try to figure out. How would I wanted to teach would relate to them, and that made it a lot more comfortable. Well, you he really emulated in his hero, because he was voted mouse like to teach her out Wharton. Six years and arouse almond, you doesn't alarmed you done something, I think sow the hats. exciting, so that's gonna go now. Is there any kind of data
I mean these conversations, I'm sure you get frustrated with them, as well as where things lie on the continuing between nature and nurture is almost the crux of so many maids, yet ultimately, maybe unknowable right to some precise degree, but do we have a theory that there is a consensus on word that comes from introversion or or extra version. Yes, so it seems like about fifty percent of intervention. Extra virgin is genetic, ok, plus or minus ten percent roughly in that that's true for most of the major personality traits and the best way to We know this. Is you get these studies of models? I gotta twins. They share a hundred per cent of their dna, but then they get separated at birth. We pray for it inside tat. I had read of a big land. So when you look at when their adults, how similar their personalities in average they overlap about fifty percent entreats like introversion lecturers, ah, ok
Then you run or you would think more being you out into well. I think a lot of people are surprise in the opposite direction. They think that is going to be all nurture, and you know if you grow up in an introverted family, you'll learn to be quiet, yet is here, and I think that cause I want to believe. I have some impact on my children death, but I feel like when I've heard about those twin studies It's more attention grabbing to go. Oh, they both Ladys married a time and they both more get thanks right that everywhere, a rubber band on their left, written yeah that that stuff is, is very headlines, got it in insatiable and fond and hasty, and then I guess it doesn't make headlines to save their knowledge cloud over the adding the more interested in some ways. The more interesting test is the reverse, which is you take two kids who urge and ethically unrelated noodles? them into the same family. An emotion is what happens to their personalities on average. They are. No, more similar than if they ve been adopted into different families.
There are no more similar. Ok, so than that says the natures got a lot going on there right lie interpret their recollect. I don't even redoubts, I would tend to look at it. I think you know that their pressures and families that push personality traits together, obviously terms of routines that you learn yeah. There also pressures that push them a partner right, sir. You are familiar with the birth order, research that says we like to do need picking, and you know if the first born is the high achiever than the second born will often rebelled to try to stand out, and so I think it's easy to see why, even though you, you think growing up in the same family, your actually exposed to different environments with different expectations o absolutely, and now that I have kids. I recognise traditionally you just think of the parents leading that charge right. But in fact the conclusion of come up with my younger daughter is she could give a shit about com the coins is. She doesn't care about rules in when I realized was from the moment
She was born, she's, been being rejected by the person whose approval she wants, the very most in the family, which is Earl, so it's just happening literally upwards of three foreigner times a day. She gets rejected by her sister, so she's she's got coping mechanism. She can get over that ensue if we reject her in some capacity or disapproving of something she's like yet. Would this is the four under the ninth time big deal? What do you think of that theory? So I think it depends on its facing a little bit so they're only a couple years apart right right, yet twenty one months so my my reading of the birth of research is almost the necessary I've, seen it social science period. Rather all these conflicting effects, nobody agrees on any being the one thing that I think is pretty robust. Is you see those kinds of reactions if kids are within about five years of each other? Ok and then, if their further apart, there is really no competition, and so all the issues are but all over again and are almost all first born Louisiana mention a war. The older sibling takes on more of a parental role, and then there are the younger sibling feels more support
dead and, sir. I I think that the similarity to aid seems like a big factor there I thought what was funny when learning about you as someone that what is an organizational psychologists would have dared to have three kids, causing my experience to always runes the third two of them always gang up and destroy the life of one of their one of the kid I I just have assessed you're. So I never knew what a third would be like. I think there's something that I also think we were warned a lot about the zone defence problem and how much you harder to two three is the I don't think that's the hardest problem. I think it's math, because when you ll have to kids there's only one, fight that can be happening. Three kids, you ve got three different fights click simultaneously. You have the power, like formulation, diagonally ass, a kid who run out and I'm back. I already have it. Are they all the same? Gender? We have two girls, Nedda boy is the boy. The baby guess I feel like this is the most ideal. If you're gonna go down this road, I feel like did those two gales will nurture that boy?
I'm definitely telling myself that I am optimistic for it's. Ok, so you get out of Harvard and you have a degree. In psychology and you got to study with one of the great teachers that they ve ever had, which is a very fortunate event for you and then you end up. But you event: in an upper monsieur, go there might be the coolest sliver of Michigan yeah Ann Arbor. It's quite a neat little pocket eggs, the best college out on earth did you go to hash bash there. Never! Never! Ok, great this! Where we started you ve never had coffee trip. What the fuck pocketing like you see that the whole world. drink in it. You don't think when they must be under something. I need to try. This caffeine has never had any effect on me, but I can tell oh really add also: protester, whom I guess I have all these activities but my tongue and even the smell of coffee, is discussing chocolate to all each latest spy.
Oh my god. Oh this error. I would rather horribly wrong. You know if you ve ever the choice between eating chocolate at a pile of dirt. I would choose the dirt know. Yet I now that's how bad chocolate, as I wonder what he's smart I am. I am now fear Oh you smelly Nazism and I worked all go about where I had. I wait. How'd you find out you're a super taster. What do you do is our test. Their coupled housing so the survey is you compare the worst tastes you ve ever experienced to the loudest sounder, brightest light and producers are more often more bothered by the worst taste, but under the there's a chemical is called probe. I think it's there's a piece of paper treated with it, but you can Lech and most people can't taste a thing, but to super tasters its foul and I haven't. I haven't Tiberias psychology conference where researcher gave these out five hundred people in the auditorium. Everyone likes the paper. Nobody reacts, the mouth is on fire. Oh, I had a run out of the room and so on.
So about the GMO lazy meat is unique. I was just We did it, hardly not that now we know it's spectacular. I was just really disheartened find out that left in people make up like ten percent of the population. I'm working on it. I thought I was so special and I'm not that's not very big he'll. Are you left handed? no, but that's a good thing without Dax feels more of that state if you dare we are supported by tone or Monica? How does my chassis look right now, folded up wrinkled? now looks nice. Does it look tall? Does it looks felt it does? Do I look strong, bs, look general tricking into me. Our has a car, that's what I'm using.
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Ok, so you when do you of them, and you got your Phd in organizational psychology. What what what led you to that specific trench of the psychology world. So I was, I was really interested in how we could use psychology to make people's lives a little bit better man's. I was working in college at an apple I think company Russia is a traveller company. I was in an advertising role and I thought ok, I've gotta figure out how to do this job. I've had no training burst. I have to sell ads, then the next euros running a team and I had to manage a budget and motivated staff and hire people. I had no idea what I was doing so I went back to the the principles ausonian my psychology classes and started applying them and they worked. I got better at my job, I went from being a horrible sales person
we're doing reasonably well at that job. I ended up doing then a good enough job as a manager that I wanted a word for my management skills and know what I was doing. I was literally just going through my all the psychology studies I had read in and trying to apply the best insights, and so I thought, okay, if I can learn to do this any one, and then I had a minute you're really going over the did your actual sales ability improve or this year your management of a sales team and bow bow yeah so that the first year I went by first week of trying to you I'd say and we had a ninety five percent renewal right now. Let's go travel books on kind and I had zero contracts, so maybe even lost some of their customers at three clients having refunds from the previous year old, I ran it which out of my country and that aid to completely turned this
and ended up selling hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of advertising in a lot of it was just learning to build report asked people questions try to connect with them on a personal level, not just you know in in terms of trying to complete some kind of transaction ride. I was surprised by how useful it was. Did you employ that trick without I've heard of where were you you basically give people? Do pattern of saying yes, we heard this thing yet Riga, like you, ve heard of a great that it is about children, the firewall technic. Oh ok, you know that your name, so we D Monica about exuberantly, be larger, but I loved this and I think people try to employed on dates as well, because tell me creeping it in the city. The general concept is that if you wanna be persuasive, you wanna get people to commit to something and then be consistent around it, and so I might start by let well what would something that either of you struggle to persuade someone to do all. I can say: ok, mom.
Fuck. I have children, certainly virtually anything brush their teeth. That look again. We use that yeah. Ok, so can you play when air kids? Of course, you I'll be how do you know I can? I call you gotta know there are many good anyway what do you say that area gets it? We're! Ok, ok, ok, right where you, yes, okay, tat, great, so Delta tell What is your favorite food, macaroni and cheese? What do you like about macaroni and cheese? It tastes good, taste good. What does it tastes like tea, awesome. Ok, what do you like about eating macaroni? It makes me for ok. Do you like a feeling yeah? Why? Because I'm full if I'm gonna get back in and out of it, I get em fragile one of the village. Where does it feel like when you're not full? I'm angry, ok and you don't like being angry. No, but have you acting happy yeah Mack,
only makes you happy yes, I, what do you need to eat? Macaroni a fork? Ok, what about in your mouth my teeth do you know what you have to do to your teeth so that they keep working crush them? I mean you back them in to be ordered. You weren't, you return something they loved. Something may hey that's. Why and what a bridge he said again, it's gotta firewalls technique le for whilst acne ok. So I interrupted you because I was curious if that was one of the technique, so was that one of the techniques you employed during this add sales, I think so I'm really is so. You were just building report which was building a lotta report. I would start by sharing something about. You know about my background that was relevant to the clients. Aha, but then a big factor was that, with social proof, beside the idea that under uncertainty, people follow the lead of some.
others. So if you, if you're, not you're, ok this case, should I buy an ad or not I'm in a look at what other advertiser too are doing a high and it never dawned on me to say. Ok here is our list of clients who are renewing. Oh shit, they ve all decided to go for it? Is that something that you might be interested in two now? Let's Jean will meet these people that these companies that I respect or I'll advertising, I probably should to re. I trust them ever their profitable we'd like to be like them, but I guess I did that d right when you walked in as I said, hey we're both for Michigan and I wanted you to know like Kate work be now. Sadly, I got it from the same similarities. Yeah. It's weird, though, that I came in and you wanted a bond with me Ah wiser later, I would think as a guest, I'm the one who wants to bond with the host. Now that's and you're the famous one moment We know what do you think this is backward doll? I think it's his job to make you feel comfortable, maybe right that is very middle
stern of you, that's. What I always say I envy about Howard Stern, is that everyone is trying to get his approval. I don't know Will you honor? He is the king of all. Meaning is number one so even of bread it does it show he wants Howard like him. I haven't. I guess I give a shit if I like them so the little bit of a tactical disadvantage that so interesting. I don't know if it's an advantage to have people meal to like you. I don't know if that is. I agree with you if the goal is to them to try to impress you and end up telling a lot about themselves that maybe the otherwise one in our alleged or a practice like none of that organic or good. You right here, we'd have to identify in our study what what what's the girl and there's an aim
what we're doing right now to you, it's called the breaking the fourth. While a technique who tell me I just made a sign that we are having had a conversation, men still goes on in podcasting. It is immensely. Is that what let you on fire for, like others, there's something to organizational psychology in the workplace? Yeah, that was a huge factor what I was doing, my manager job? I took my first organizational site class and the professor Richard Hackmen had this really interesting career where he decided he was gonna, become the world's leading expert on teams because he hated working with other people a hi. This is true for a lot of psychologists right. We stand blind spots. What's it was the one thing, I'm worse, that you're gonna go and study that right, and so Richard One and understand how could anyone ever work with another human being?
and the way that he did it was. He took all the careers that he was interested in and said. Emily live those vicariously by studying them, and so he wanted to be an orchestra conductor. He studied symphony. Orchestra is and how to help them, enjoy their jobs and also play better music dna. So yeah I mean he studied intelligence agents in basketball team an airline, cockpit crews, and I looked at that and said, wait a minute. I have never known what I want to do with my career, but as an organizational psychologist, my job could be to study other people's jobs. That sounds fashion all that so interesting yet like in lieu of your own, like Norstar passion, you could go study, other people's area,
I like that. Can you remember what it was about studying organizations that really? Oh while we could know that there there were so many. What are the ones that jumped out at me at first was trying to think about the idea of personality work, you're working with someone who is sometimes really dominant and authoritarian and other times your kind of submissive and deferring the other people how in the world could that happen and what I thought from setting social psychology was out. Will the situation is very powerful? And so here you end up in a situation where someone has more status than you and you defer you end up in a situation where You know you're the powerful person in you. You kind of stand up, yeah, like code, switching nurse yeah exactly and there's some of that. But what we learned about was,
search on the personality trade of authoritarianism, which is actually your consisted in your inconsistency, is so that an authoritarian are always there always dammit, when their deal with people below them and their always submissive when dealing with people above them and that's a personality trade to say, I believe that hierarchy is really important and leave. When I am in charge, I should have total control and I thought I was so interesting to say show you bring in this personality. Try to an organization and it changes wait. You interact with all of your colleagues depending on who, you think, has more power less power than you. Ok, while we're on this topic as Monica
I went through a kind of remembered all the things we were obsessed within his interview with SAM. We love- and you were talking about that power. Conventionally is thought of as something that corrupts people and it was. It was even hung in a classroom of yours is a child, but that that's not the case in you gave great examples of two folks that perfectly exhibit that. Oh, yes, so ATLAS power can corrupt people, but I think that some people are more corruptible by power than others, and so I love the case of a lawyer, his trying its first case and the judge writes that he doubts that the lawyer has the ethical qualifications to practice law and that lawyers Richard Nixon known, as happened in the nineteen thirty's. If I remember correctly so we could foreshadow a lot of what was to come here, and so I think that makes it actually corrupted power right. It wasn't necessarily power that corrupted him and then
But you can trust that with another lawyer who also ascended to the oval office who, when he was pricing lie, he was asked to take a case to defend somebody who he thought was guilty and he said I can't I think it's rob and he was so upstanding that he can be paid. The article against its values in his beliefs and then, when he made it to the oval office. He held office hours, forty four and a half hours a day to hear that concerns of regular citizens? You might have heard of them. His aim is Abraham, Lincoln VS, and I think that you can see in that contrasts with a lot of the the research in psychology shown, which is that oftentimes power doesn't really corrupt it reveals and that when you gain a position of influence, you feel, like you know it I am now free to show you my true colours. She was interesting about. There is one I was hearing, you talk about it and this becomes a little bit of an overarching issue. I have in general with something people up is that binary doesn't really cover it. A quadrant doesn't cover it there's
Domini color. So in my own life I went from powerless biometrics and then getting famous and then definitely exploiting that miss using their abusing that I'd like to think I'm now at a place where I don't do that, but it was a learning curve for me. So is it also possible that that thing is fluid yeah? I think so. I much more comfortable predicting some this behaviour over a long period of time, ah ha so the shorter the window, the more likely it is that, whatever situation, your aunt is gonna, have a big impact on their behaviour and also the peer group that around you, are, we doing a lot of those same things sure sure, but I think that when we start to see your values play out, is you chose to step up off that path? Right and say? Ok, that's not the person I wanna be yeah. I don't know how I feel afterwards,
So you leave U of M and u go to North Carolina and you work there for a minute and then you end up at the Wharton School of business at PAN or you're still at, and you wrote a book and I think your first job ugly. I imagine some way leads to give and take is up its act or at the very myself. So in that first add fails job. I felt leg what really motivated me was knowing we were a student run organization on a college campus and the more revenue I brought in the more jobs I could create. Four other students were also trying to pay for school. The same way I was, and so without that knowledge I would have been a total pushover and said you know, I don't really need to tell these clients that they should spend their money on our advertisements, spear, but knowing that I had such an important mission and that it might help other people it get me into a different gear, and it made me much more likely than to say. Ok, look, I'm not doing this for me. I'm doing this because I believe in this
organization and yet at the learning opportunities to create for people in the way that it makes it possible for them to afford an education and so seeing how motivated I was by believing that my work benefited other people. I got interested in studying that more systematically, and I actually did my undergrad thesis studying the teams that let's go and found that the best predictor of the performance of the writers and editors who are putting the books together was their belief that their books, we're gonna, have a positive impact on travellers. So you you started looking at givers and takers and then there's also a mix of those two right in new found that in in work forces in cultures of companies, that you have these different groups of people that you ve labelled, givers or takers and others a third one with matters the match yes to tell us about givers in takers cause, I'm really cares. As I was listening, you explain it. I gotta say I have no idea where I fall out. Oh yeah yeah really automatic at first.
Hey solar, explain what to give her a them want to take her as a guy, so for it. First of all. These are styles of interaction that we all mix and match throughout the course of our days and our lives, but when I think about your style, I think about what your default so wooden when you're interacting with most of the people. The time are you asking? What can I do for you just givers orientation? Are you trying to figure out? What can you do for me? It which is more of a taking mindset, or are you saying, oh yeah? Can we can we trade favours and I'll do something for you? If you do something for me in that, that would be being a matter ah ha and yeah. Of course here we all have moments of each, but you also know people who are pretty can Does that way, you're trying to add value versus extract value from their relationships? Yeah! That's what I'm trying to get up, and you are also saying one is not better than the other like you. Obviously we are
Think being a takers, bad I mean I will he was at least so you do things well, but you know, I think more specifically, you approach it from angle that he was open to the notion that it take her, might be better for a business the outcome. I got to study yeah. Does that unites? Obviously, morally, I would prefer that their enemies, acres in the world you set out on that hypothesis, hoping that givers are ultimately beneficial to an organization, but your open to the notion that the data may not support them being right. Now. Here's where I think I might be old above up again, you and in our you a little bit, which is, I am, and some level an rand, I believe and selfishness. I believed there isn't anything, that's not selfishly motivated. So even if I hear someone is a giver or someone as a people, please are, I think, well They're just selfish, but for whatever weird reason, their identity is such that that's where they get their self esteem, but it still we're all in pursuit of the same.
thing? Like being loved connection, and then we ve chosen a path and right or wrong, that's apartment, but we're. Trying to do the same thing in everyone's equally fucking selfish. What do you think about that? Are their levels of selfishness? Of course, see. I just think there's no levels are evil journey over right now. I think actually really interesting debate and I don't think I'm in a land where you think I'm an eleventh hour, but I was just going to say what I'm seeing as people using really terrible strategies to get a thing they want. We had his loving connection, but I dont think that the person whose in the jacked up truck fucking blown diesel exhaust prayers for a visit though, in an affliction, shirt, flippin, someone up, I think weirdly, that guy is just as desperate and wants justice where everyone around him, the like him, look up to him. Whatever respect him he's just not super graded evaluating whether that techniques bearing fruit or now, maybe
or maybe there are big individual differences in how much people care about being liked and accepted and loved to There are many people, you need to be loved by ok, but we have these categories insight You were agreeable or disagreeable, these originality types and there seem to be somewhat universal across the planet. Ok, so even that I still think at the core of agreeable disagreeable. Is the same desire in the same selfish motivation just to drastically different approaches. So when I think about the the continuum of agreeableness, I think about it, we able people as warm friend, made their polite. Nice name. In the great we were and disagreeable people much more critical and sceptical new Yorkers
yeah and more likely than their peers to go to law school or become engineers who right, which is interesting. But I think that when you look at the experiences of agreeable and disagreeable people, there is a great study that Debbie Moskowitz and Stefan Coty dead in Toronto of all places where they would pay Jew or text you. And if this is in the page or days there asked you what your doing right now and then how much joy, Are you feeling an agreeable people of course were happiest when they were feeling loved and connected other people, disagreeable people experience more joy in an argument, then friendly conversation and they were. They were energized by that sense of conflict. Intention. But again, do you think the argue were is at that moment farming, their identity, that what people like about me is that I am very savvy on my feet and I'm nimble in an argument in improving this value, I'm adding to everyone which is I'm very clever and bright. Like don't you think,
More of it. They think that's what's attractive about them. I think for some, but I think, there's also a pretty big subset of disagreeable people who are thinking about the other person's reaction. Designer say hey. This is who I am and I need to tell this idiot that I'm right and by when I'm not this kind of psychologists suffer, every day. As a result I would say mark. Would you agree that taxes pretty agreeable? pose a disagreeable bill. I would remind you that when you are talking about when you're talking about givers guys, I dont know if I'm a giver take her, but when I know agreeable, this group totally disagree. He is what you say is good, I don't buy it at all every time I have listened to your show. I hear
off the charts. Agreeable lie I now at all. While I agree that I do not think you're a take her at all. Ok, I'm not sure, but now I dont think I do not think you are, but I do think your disagreement. I think I'm disagree. I do yeah yeah. Why? Well definitely what you say about getting energy out of a debate here as we both have to but wait a minute. That's only a little different, so intellectual debate, very different from actually genuinely disliking someone? Ok, yes, I I never pay you they almost never dislike. Presentiment of I don't remember you with them and also seem to hate the idea of being disliked too. Of course, yeah yeah yeah, one of the hallmarks of agreeable. Really,
Although I've had to evolve because again, I'm in a position where a lot of people would want my attention and at some point I had to going to live with people not like me. I gotta exist in the world with you, because I dont feel leg. He wants to be like so much that he changes his personality to match or to acquiesce. You don't do that you're. Still you always you just condemned alike. I want you like that were here. Relating herself, which to me, would be more of an agreeable purse and maybe would be like ok, this person needs this, for me is so I'm gonna. be that I don't wanta me, I'm without more that also gets in Evian. threats of monitoring new directives into another trip. I think there's a case to be made. We should pay more attention to it when we talk about the big five personality traits, but has it made it there yet
Some monitoring is about how much you adapter behaviour to fit the environment, and so, if you're, a high self monitor your constantly reading the norms and then saying ok, I've got to adjust and you're you're, actually you're an actor in everyday life whereas Lhasa Monitor would say this is, who I am I'm gonna. Be that way, regardless of visas MRS Green jobs, yeah off it, far down on the low self monitoring under the spectrum. Then totally detaining awry extremely disagree. Now. Is you take her giver? Oh that's a good question. I think it image it depended on who he was interacting with. I think that you see a lot of the tell tale signs of being a take her in the way that he took credit for other people's work, that he demeaned ends
respected other people may think, there's a huge difference between being demanding and being demeaning any across that line Thea consistently. I think, though, that there were moments when he seemed more generous, so there was an award that the MAC team did four years for the person who most courageously challenge Steve jobs. Oh and every year that person got promoted, and so you you saw him risk not only respecting but rewarding people who are willing to stand up to him, the first stage in farms there we are supported by shudder, fly now christen just made the coolest shudderful. I books of our trip to Tirana with five families went took a lot. Pictures yeah viewing those e where you got what you gonna. Do you gonna go on your photos, scroll through our trillion pitchers versus she curated, but all the best memories in photos made it into a book, and now everyone has a physical copy of that experience, and I love
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and exchanges in the. U S say it's a damn good smell in product that is very effective. Now, for twenty percent off your first purchase visit native deodorant dot com and use promo Code Dax during checkup, that's twenty percent off when you go to native deodorant dot com, and use the kodaks. So I think it is incredibly complex, character, yeah, but I'm gonna use him a couple times as go talk about some years that lets yak as he does seemed a pity mise. What we think of, as I can The visuals, the non people bleeding all these things, so that this takes us back a little bit too that question about our people. The hour is their core of selfishness, young and what I think is actually I love this research by David Rand who says: look you know we think that people have these base darwinian instincts to be a selfish as possible in the way that we get a generosity.
Is we build cultures and societies that reward and have rules and norms around how you treat other people, and then you override you're, selfish instincts right? What David shows is often is the opposite that if people in a situation where they have to make a split second decision about, let's say whether they want to donate I need to charity. That's gonna help children her in poverty. In the immediate visceral decision they are more likely to be spontaneously generous when they're, not even thinking about it, because the natural No answer that feeling of empathy or compassion is too how right exactly, even even if it had a real costs to yourself right, whereas if he gives you a little time to think about it, you become more calculated and you get into a slightly greedier, more selfish mode, and so I think it's a mistake to assume that we have
a fundamental nature that selfish and then cut of layer? On top of that is our more evolved kind of criticisms. I think we have both. I think we have some base instincts to try to accomplish our own goals and be a self serving as possible. I think we have some equally powerful instincts to care and show concern, and I think that the ideal state for most people, if they care about their own success or the quality of the relationships, is to get good at present. Both of those goals simultaneously yeah. Well, just thinking about you know we are designed. We have hardware, there's a reason. Babies look the way. They look, there's a reason puppies and kittens look the way they look like. We do have some visuals signals of when we should be more empathetic, sympathetic and helpful right. It's order to feel bad for Swartz Nigger than it is greek well, and we know that Greece did a worn out together. I used about example, say about a horse everywhere he yet he did when our military policy, let us assume a night,
I didn't do it. I guess marked up to his own experiment that there are some further experiments that when you're exposed to cuter cats or a baby's here, then more likely to be helpful and but not just helpful. Also, more careful you feel the need to be vigilant to protect EU somebody who might be suffering or a creature that might be in danger right, and I think we it's easy to see how those instincts evolved and would have been selected for an even Darwin, recognized right. Darwin wrote in one of his classic books that a group where people were unselfish and they were trying to help other people in the tribe would actually outlast other tribes, and that would be a form of group selection. So in this work culture, where you have takers in givers, you have matches the matches, our people that are Hammurabi Code right, like an eye for an eye, its whatever's equal. Yet now explain what monarchy is to me or or explain what you are What does I dont know where I fit and I'm not sure, then I'm so clear and taking or giving in the workplace, so I think about it in
She weighs one is what your goals or motives and then the second is: what are your behaviors when you look at how other people per se The men, one of things at a lot of us run into is we have a hard time. Judging our own styles adds at first we find that a lot of people claim be givers and then other people think they're takers and your leg. Okay, this is so psycho weird version of the movie, the six that's from everybody else knows you take her, but you have no idea young and a lot of people assume that eager in it that we want to see ourselves and in the most positive light yeah by the research on this actually says. It's probably more about information that you actually that the classic work on this is married couples. So you put them in separate rooms and you ask them of the total work that goes into their merit what percent are you responsible for ever and three out of anger for your, possibly at us add up to over out everything somebody's lie
and I think that men generally overestimated more than women dead. I think you're right. I do unsurprisingly, blood what's really interesting about. This is, if you break down, why it's not because you want to think that you're, inherently a better partner than your spouse right is actually you. You want to believe that your spouse is probably the same kind of great partner. That you are is more that you, you were there for every act, of generosity. You did right, you are you are you were present when you turn losses at all, they are exactly you remember every dish and Whatever your heart is there, and you just can't recall that, so I think that makes it hard to judge where we stand, because we didn't know too much about ourselves and we don't have it we don't we don't of good comparison with other evil, but I think that for me one of the easiest is to say: ok when you meet someone new, what is your full first impulse? Are you looking for ways that you might be able to help them? Are you looking for you know a tray? but you could do or are you valuing the person in terms of wicked this person do for me, I,
someone who is known for a long time now, ashen creature, ah Ashton, said that year and one of the most humble givers than you know on the day that the two of you met Y, see well but again, Unless is on the rise on the other it is. I was penniless he gave me my first job in his endeavour is where he is the giver and also held the keys to a lot of opportunity for me. So it was. It was definitely my best. You no interest to be in that role with him. That's probably true, so I just want to check my own benevolence and say he did represent. You know what what is a better? What is a better evaluation of the United is what we are now, which is eight, and I don't mean anything from him anything from me and I like to think yes, I would still be happy to come help a move into his house, yet you know so that so that's a bad task because he visited
position of influencing the better test is at different points in your life for your career. How did you treat people who couldn't? Do you any good? given the time of day. Did you try to exploit them, or did you say? Ok, how can I open a door for this person? So there's like a neutral space. On giver. I came to feel like I'm being honest. I am neither like if more, you might be a mantra bound, I'm deadly not trying to take or figure out what they can do for me. I'm just like. I just do what I do. What Now what you really graduates clarify. One thing is fun. Is it on the acquainted? Level is in on the friendship level. Is it on this giant coworker level? What is it all? Is it just one because I'll say within your friendships, you're trying to help friend send their kids to a pre school they want to go to them
you're gonna, invite your friends and run a house, so they can have a vacation so give these people. I love that seek out a different strata, doubted that I think the definition ever of real relationship is both people are givers. Neither person keep score unless things get worse. at about rise, which happens so is. Is this just within coworkers may be ready that typically studied yeah has, I think it's where there is the most room fur, not knowing how to behave, and then you start to see people's values come out a low that yeah interesting but have also been opportunistic, and I evaluate it when people could help me. I think, as well out of the US a bad thing that Red Europe you're supposed to be ambitious for yourself, just not at the expense of other people rime, and so when I've, when I've studied-
did you ever give eager, but you probably both- and I already with that thing I found when studying engineers and doctors and salespeople and couple other jobs too- that the givers tended to fail a lot more than that takers matters, but they also succeeded a lot more, which is kind of a cool, ok, helping others could think your career or could accelerate at d and the biggest differences between the successful in the failed givers were not about intelligence or talent, or ability. They were really about whether you looked out for your own interests as well as trying to help other people too. Could you give us a concrete example of how a giver critics Sal or or genome end up at the top of this chart? Yes, I went to one of my favorite. Examples is cat call, so she was raised by a single mother who had there were three jobs to feed a family and a food budget of ten dollars a day being and by the time they cat turn fifteen when it was legal. She started working to help support family, so selling clothes, closing them mall and then work in a restaurant, and she was the kind of
who was always looking for ways to pitch in so one day in a restaurant, cooked doesn't show up and cat is the first person to is your hand in volunteer and run back into the kitchen so that meals are served. Now that a measure quits and cat takes it upon herself to start organizing people's shifts in making sure that everyone so has a predictable schedule, and you look at that. You say wow a doormat equity and we see, especially women, are likely to get taken advantage of and stuck with that kind of office, housework or kind of invisible contribution. But in cats case she ends up being invited to open up their companies. First, restaurant in Australia and the reason for that is she's. The only person whose work every job and the rest Oh wow. All that time she spent helping other people solve their problems. She was learning and and building skills to solve the whole company, promoting on to capitalize exactly, and so you know she did her career just takes off from there and by the time she's twenty six years in charge of corporate training by thirty two she's named the press,
and the little company called cinnabar she is now running that and Java juice and anti ends in a bunch of other franchises, and so you can see from her story how clear it is that, helping actually has a it, has a learning advantage, but that was a clearer consideration for her when she helped right. It wasn't, oh, you know- do all these random task that nobody's gonna appreciate having to help in areas that are strategically important to actually getting our work, done and I'm going to do it in places where I can pick up new skills. I would imagine the advice could be. I don't know what your advice is, but like be a giver but have boundaries kind of like the same interpersonal things that we would want. It's like Exactly that's exactly. I would recommend you wanna boundaries around who you help how you up and when you help no people respect boundaries, people actually its counter intuitive you, you think you're, not pleasing them, but actually admire you. They look up to you. They trust you more.
they are. They know you value yourself in and therefore devalue used well, yeah yeah. I think I think that sad that sell him at a lotta givers, don't we buys until much later in their lives. Are careers, though, where a confused early on the idea that I want to be helpful with. I have to say yes to all the people all the time. In another request, you know it's funny, nothing you're, saying it's like boy that really details the difference between my mother and father. So perfectly and my father was a car salesman. And it's fucking kill ye every man for themselves. Take what you can get steal a fucking guy if he turns his back still a customer. You know and from many years he made more money than my mom and my mom was the war started again regime than worked in the tool? Crib? Always volunteering for overtime? She had to support us three kids and accumulated all these bizarre skills. Not unlike the story you just told, and then
My mom ended up making much more than my father. Could she started business and she knew? How do you all these aspects in all much different now is always just so happy. I felt like there was justice in the world when it turned out that way. I think that's the other interesting fighting when you look at the givers who fail versus the ones who succeed is most giver failures in the short term, because in our day to day you are sacrificing some of the time you could be devoting their own work. You are Maybe you know helping other people get things done as opposed to a kind of advancing your own agenda and that that seems like a disadvantage. In the short run, lower, not only or you're learning more girls are building trust, whether you are a take- I give her a matter. You wanna be surrounded by givers and you know people tender. To really value those people over time, and so I found that the giver send arise. Yeah I've always thought You know in business, you you can find people over, but you can only welcome over wants like it. It's got. It better, be a big score
You gotta be a hash out the socket that everyone over, although we have certain examples currently thirdly, regulated using Arabic. Thank you get away with that. That depends non whether there are matters in that system, because matters are the people who hold takers accountable. Terrorism are likely to let them get away with it over and over again on the matters I know my job is to be the karma police, I'm going to wield the sort of justice you are taken is my mission in life to just punish the hell out of here. I have to. I have I suffer from that a bit now. Ok, I gotta go see warmer think back to that selfish thing. I think it's I'm acutely suspicious of it, because I happened to be married to someone who most people would agree, is the most generous help or give her on the plane and truly it. So it's your job to protect Kristen. No, it's that I look at her and she is by all
measures a better person. The me much more generous, much more empathetic always there for somebody, but I am her partner, not wild by her she's, my wife of twelve years- and I know she's just- is fuckin ignominy ankles. I am she just her identity is this. She is supporting her own identity. Neither of us are better. I happened to get identity, Do we always are motorcycles, are rather self esteem? That's not her bag. She gets it added rescuing odds she's, just a human like everyone else in their path to self esteem happens to be that got it. Ok, so is a super interesting. I would take up the things that the first one is The item is anything wrong with getting psychological rewards from helping
no, that's that's part of what fuels people's desire to keep helping yeah yeah. If your constantly stepping in and pitching in for other people and its draining you than then you're gonna, stop doing it soon right. I think we want it to be reinforcing, be silent, fault, anyone fer, you know either getting self esteem or joy, or you know some kind of ego boost right out of being helpful. I think, though, that there is a difference between doing it, because you want that boost and that boost being a by product of the action. So what you see with a lotta givers is yeah. You know at it makes their day when their able to help someone else, and I feel this all the time it as a teacher that one of the best things that happens in my life now, as I work with a lot of different kinds of organizations, is often easy for me to find. If somebody wants a job in their dream,
company is often easy for me to say to a student hey. I actually know the person runs that organisation. Let me see if I can set you up an interview, and that is the highlight of my day no question yeah bring do it, because I wanted to feel good right. I did it because I cared about the student and I thought it would be really meaningful to try to help them achieve their goals and then oh cool, there's this kind of reward. That comes after it, which is a nice surprise. I don't know if this applies as something you see in your marriage, but for a lot of givers? The joy is kind of an afterthought, or and after he acts as opposed to the driving motivation. Thea in she was raised. In an environment where her kindness was unexploited and I was in so I might being
I doubt somebody, but I have a pretty lethal fear that I'll be taken advantage of. So this is this: is there an interesting it? This is setting out and see with with people who have kind of mixed, giving and matching instincts near you wanna help, but you also have been burned a bunch of times right and you ve seen people get taken advantage of, and so there is a strong I wouldn't think about. That is taking its more it's a strong self protective drive and I think that's healthy right. I think we all need to have a speedy sense that singles when somebody's out again yeah. It's funny. Could I came into this thinking. Ok, taken chaired this evidence about how givers can rise, working to motivate allotted takers to become more generous, a home, and that has not. Give and take it out of the impact. That's nothing to affect the effect has been for a lot of givers to say you know what I don't have to give up on this. I was burning myself out her I was getting burned.
destiny, forgive her. I just need a new, more thoughtful about the choices I make a high, and so you know I don't think anyone has to be a give her to be successful, but as a more meaningful way to succeed. Cinematic put me if you can achieve your goals. An elevator, The people along the way, it's kind of exciting will then is funny encounter intuitive that the result the book was actually to de shame. Probably the giver. Yes and it didn't shame the taxpayers in a way that you have gotten a few emails over the last four years from people saying you know: seven people gifted me this book Anna, I thought well, I'm such a giver coming and I realize undertaker. Ok, now that's given take now here's where
you, and I really got excited SAM interview, and I think this is where it all comes from that you then wrote originals how nonconformists move the world? If I'm correct about this, what we took from that is that genius, the thing we put on a pedestal is not the product of quality as much as is the product of quantity. Is that the book where this kind of yes comes from gas, so that the basic idea is curious about ways about how their so many people in the world with creative ideas. I am not just talking about you, know artistic creativity, I'm talking about. You have an idea to improve european environment. So you think the culture of your organization is broken or you ve come up with a product that you think as a slight improvement, and you might want to go on shark take one day right, and I think that the data show very clearly that most of us never do anything about those ideas and a big question is why- and I think I came up- I came upon a few
there's one as we know how to judge our own ideas and figure out if there any good right a man, we don't know how to speak up about them in and get other people on board. And so really wanted to write the sequel to creativity and say once you have an idea, champion it and you make a reality, and so I came in with his big. Is it really clear expectation for me that original thinkers we're just cut from it four cloth, they are daredevil, they love to take risks their extremely passionate. They have total conviction that their ideas are gonna, work out and they're, just biologically wire yeah to say. Ok, I have a out that came up. room with a vision of how we can change the world and I'm gonna go, do it and be a prodigy along the way yeah. I found the opposite of all of those things. I found that this is true for creative scientists, artists,
entrepreneurs? You can see that any domain that they were very consistently the people who generated lots and lots of bad ideas, the more bad ideas you have, the more ideas you haven't, so you have a better shouted something under a good one which was cool. They constantly quest in themselves and doubted themselves. So you have vat Michelangelo fleeing when he is commission, the Sistine Chapel, because the task is just so daunting doesn't think you can pull it off. You have Martin Luther King Jr n. No, I do not want to run the civil rights revolution. I dont want to be in any kind of position of influence in this movement, because I'm trying to focus on my job as a pastor ends. You know these are very consistently people feeling reluctance in and questioning whether they can make it there
a lot of them are really slow to to get into pursuing whatever their their original pathways, and so they had to have their arms twisted. They were often the latest movers and some of them were even big, procrastinators I'd. I just looked at that and said original thinkers or not that different from the rest of us, yet very encouraging and empowering to hear that none of these people were superheroes and that they also procrastinated. I mean that that the classic encouraging examples always like re crock, invented Mcdonald's at while he France
as regards at fifty two and, as I have always said, I'm nervous to get past fifty two cars that are no longer believe someone older. Now you need to go to the physicists you and Nobel Prize in their eighty is threatening us, as I still hope for me, you haven't you, you do a great job of each year, like amateur historian on Edison. Right, like Edison, is someone your obsessed with, as Edison has such an interesting example here, because I always thought of him as one of these creative genius where every idea he had took off yeah and he had what a thousand forty three patents, while only six or seven of them had any lasting impact on the world, and there were so many duds along the way. You look at the talking doll he created. It was so creepy that it scared adults not just get ah well nowhere key try to invent, although maybe out of his time Chuckie
movie biology now, but I would not like it, but he he just. He consistently spun his wheels on things that didn't work, and you look at that as an example of say worth if one of the most prolific inventors you know in history had failed that many times in order to get a few successes, good news for the rest of us yeah? It's very unkind. I love it. You know use tenured at twenty years old, young is obvious. Addison What's your thoughts on tenure you're? Obviously you like that you have it. Yes, I plan to keep tat indeed, think it's good for the protection of spreading of ideas and free thinking and all their uncut it's hard on theirs, experiment going on in Western Europe right now, where you sign professors to five to ten year contracts and the idea is that you give them a long runway so that they can really pursue big ideas. Yeah. I can see that you know allow
for some degree of freedom of speech, but I worry about it more in areas where the work that you do make it politicized right at you, you think again, never gonna get a job again. If I voiced my opinion is I think it's really important for freedom, where it's even more critical in some ways, though, is for attracting motivated. Kind of curious people into the field, because I know what I was looking at a different jobs. One of the draws for me was that I, as somebody who always felt financially and secure the idea that that I don't have a job for life, and I could have you know that sense of security. A convinced me to do that as opposed to pursuing lots of other fields- and I think that's true for a lot of professors, and so I think I worry about the the loss of talent if we abandon an altogether near humming sound
Would you know it's funny? How do you know who tat also is? I don't think so. I could be wrong about this, but if I'm wrong, he then he's the top three. I think he's the most successful at trying cases in the Supreme Court. He got Doma overturned, but he also get citizens United upheld. So he is interesting because he's been on the left and the right and we had the youth, The pleasure of going to dinner with him at one point in he and I got into a little argument about ten year teachers, professors. He thought it was horseshit how I got him was, I said: will you believe in the appointment of the Supreme Court right that there should be a lifelong things, people can go against Pilar MOB mentality and we need, as I would have someone I could. Of course they served it up to him on the right, so others
professor somewhere in the physical sciences that discovers, we are not responsible for global warming that couldn't get out on liberal campuses unless there was tenure like if someone really discovered that they could not publish that they would get fried, if not for ten years. So there are situations where it's like it serves a real purpose. Gatt and the history of science is full. If those examples yes of joy, huge paradigm shift. It seemed that the grand unravel all of society Tourniquets Galileo, Darwin. Yes, you for loved him. Yes, he did ok or another thing. I want you to talk about briefly cause your greater explaining. Is this notion that people humans in the workplace- and I would argue just humans travelling through life should have this is-
annuals humans should come with a manual coworkers. You should publish a manual on how to use you in how helpful that would be tat. So this is a relatively new idea. For me, sir, I hesitate podcast called workload and my original goal was to say. Ok, I spent a lot of time teaching things already know. Two people write what if I could reverse that and take the most interesting people and workplaces around and go in and try to learn from what they do differently a little bit like. If you wanted work out tips, you should go to an Olympic nothing is you're trying to make the Olympics, but because they know more about that thing, yes, and so one of the things they did was a winter consulting firm ban that has a long track record of building amazing teams and what their especially good at is. They bring groups of people together who have never met before and all of a sudden there. They have to produce and analysis of a problem for a client that redirect the strategy of their business or or something to that effect, and so they have to give a teams up to speed very quickly.
not a lot of on board, and so you might get a call from an insurance company in Kansas, saying you know we need to rethink our strategy. We have to pull from all these different people, some of whom are currently working in Ireland. Rico hotel accompany trying to expand? Yes, and so they have to get really good at at teeming and figuring out how strangers can work as if their old friends now and one of the things they did was they had a group of managers who said you know what he's home you buy. A new piece of technology can come with some kind of manual to tell you how to operate at re. You'd, never expected, article, without an odour manual and last time I checked the human mind- is at least as complex as anything you can buy and and probably a lot more complex visa and so would have What have we created a manual fur for how to work effectively with me, and so I have actually done it since then, which was one of the fine outcomes of learning about it. So I wrote my own first say sad. Here's what brings out the best me here's what brings out the worst in me and
Here's how to work most effectively with me and then I went. I ask what were some of those young what you gonna wanna bring out the worst in you, that's easy! Oh, I can guess what Tom it I think, someone that would be loud and aggressive Many variety towards you to motivate you like. If I was a coach- and I was coaching you I dont think yelling at you- would be a good how'd. You know that that's true. I hate that I can just feeling oh you're, so mad. Yeah. I had a whole thing about because you have been so I've never heard. You say that you said that I don't think I've ever admitted it before I can buy yeah now I I think this is part of being agreeable. Is aid I'd like to please other people. I am somebody's mad at me. I want to crawl into a whole year, whereas, if summit is in our seeing my potential
or in a value in my work. I cannot wait to do more to try to make them happy. I also would imagine I won't came at a more from like your clearly a very sensitive nice human being who really wants to make things better around him and eyes. I think that personnel, they type where we grew up, could have been easily subject to like overly masculine alpha energy yeah yeah. I think I think that certainly a target for bullying DA yeah, that's fair. Sir. Are you running out? I used to find a threatening, and now I look Really are you that uncreative that the only way you can motivate meet us to start screaming at me? Yeah, but again you have acquired a lot of capital, be it in electoral degrees, finances security. There's all these things. Now that you can go now, I'm not! play that game. Yeah, like you acquire at, which is nice and yeah
I think that in order for other, I think that I think I started learning it before any of those resources were available, Sir Member, but I was working as a negotiator. People come in and play good cop, bad cop at first it was what do I do? I'm just one person there's this this tough negotiator in front of me who's gonna? U no kind of Boeing me into making a bad deal the and finally, ok. What do I know, as is You know somebody studying psychology about how to deal with these people. But what you do is you label that behaviour very gently, and then you test your understanding, and so the ITA pair of negotiators come in and they launch right into the routine, and I just started smiling, and one of them said: what are you smiling at? I set out looks like you're playing good cop, bad cop at that they don't know what to say, then the routine area it tender, camouflage off of it is the wind is out of the sale yet- and I said, look you know what I am.
they all kinds of games and happy to play good cop, bad cop. In fact, I will gladly give you my best bad cop impression cause, I feel like we don't have enough of those around here personally, rather figure out, if there's anything that you can offer me It will help me meet my goals and, if there's anything I can offer you that will help. You eat your goals and if you want to have that conversation great, if you want to fight tooth and nail to see through the tougher negotiator, is you're not gonna, like that version of me, and it is so easy to have that conversation. Yeah yeah a boy. I've had similar ones. Where I go like look, you got nukes, I got nukes, we It annihilating other do what we can do it. Let's do it. I am happy to do it or let's just get right to the part where we come to our senses sets awesome what's funny when you were saying that people should have a manual, let me just as to what will? How does one get the best out of you? The best out of me. I think comes from.
Few things number one. You should be self starter, so I hate managing people I hate holding other people accountable. I want to work with people who were are intrinsically motivated, he added and so in a reach out to me after you ve. if you dont know, the answer is something you ve shown. You ve done your homework and I'm really excited to say: ok is there something? I know that that could help the? Whereas, if you ask, the question that you gotta go. The answer to you is that waste my time here. I think that that's been a clear theme, the other thing that went in there, because I gave it to a bunch of people who worked with me and sad. Can you answer these questions about me without telling them what I thought I wanna things I learned was. I had no idea what's, however, that this is kind of a best Anna worse, but one of the things that brings out the worst in me is when somebody has a solution,
that they presented me without explaining what the problem is? First, ah, there there's it's like there's a switch thickets flipped as a social sciences threats. They wait a minute. How do we know that the right course of action and deliver randomize, controlled experiment, Java, longitudinal study? I go into this sort of mitigating mode of trying to debunk their solution and if they would just come in to say, hey here's a problem. How would you think about solving it, then, really excited to write my slaves right interesting. So what would go in your user manuals while I'm way better with positive feedback instead of MIKE Negative Fount? Like just tell me what you want, not what I did, but I did wrong. Why is it like if I feel super confident? That's when I do my best? I don't do my best when I'm scared, I'm not making the boy help you, my worse. I get self conscious. I start thinking about the cameras are thinking about my lines I sent you know by the way I hear the agreeableness in there
Again, I really am a person who gives a shit if I'm making the buses have been doing. I'm doing my role I can be pushed to that point, but what is usually after we already Lombard. Always it's on a starting point: got it Mackay Monica. This is your chance to tell Dax how to the best in the ear I became similar, and I like validation. I like getting credit for things, I'm doing, but I'm sure sorry I'll walk. I don't like that about myself. I kind of no want that to be the answer, but it is. I think I think regardless I'm doing the same work. If I'm happy doing it, it's generally be because I know that person realizes what I'm doing here. If I feel like I'm going unseen and I'm still doing a lot of work, which I'm going to still do, I'm in a bad mood, and I have a bad attitude in Miami resentment, Social, her, possibly yes,
I I like feeling seen only to say that I was a dark, a little bit Don't know that I would expect anyone that agreements are now. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. In fact, if we about the team that I want to work with, that those are the most delightful people to motivate, because you know exactly what fires them up. He as opposed to constantly guessing now. What do you think about this? One thing I found that when I was a boss I needed to get, and I find that my mom has as too so I work for my mom for years, and I thought she was incredible bosses in many many ways, but we have the same trigger, which is like, I feel like I'll give people a lot a rope, because I want a lot of a ton of me in ship over what I'm doing so, I'm trying to give other people that same autonomy and ownership, which means
not really taskmaster here and I get fucking pissed when they forced me to be one I can actually it makes me angry at them, like God, damn it now you're gonna make me be the person I don't wanna be, which is again, I think some level of co dependency. It's important to me that they like me and but now you forced me to to do something that I you know yeah. I think that's your discomfort with sometimes having to go into a boss. mode. I dont think you like doing that so, but sometimes you have to you're the boss Rand. So there is a little bit of well shouldn't. You guys just figure this out without me, because I dont want to be the person that has to come.
Step and let sometimes you got you and you're there, the boss man, but I think it is interesting to me that when these kinds of situations crop up were part of the problem, is that you're? Not you specifically? But anybody in this situation billets? I got you come here to vote. First on your own, your own preference, as opposed to saying my job as a leader, is to do whatever is going to get the job done effectively, and so I've got a view it'll, be flexible and adaptable and say sometimes in order to be effective, I have to let go of my identity or my values or I preferred way working and that when push comes to shove, that's what happens Ok, I will, I will be the more demanding boss, because I care about the quality of the work, and I think that for a lot of bosses, if they would realise that a front that it would bother them less, I think
totally right. I think if you just went into a going, I'm gonna have to adjust and I'm gonna have to manage each for themselves like having, as I've been the parent of children. Basically I do. I have to parent my girls differently very differently or its funding, because I think it depends on the job because in this case like in your case, increases they want. Trying to be bosses enables the candidate open the position where they have to be so it's not like they do. They went to business school there trying to be the ceo denying don't go to London. I think that makes a big difference. People who want to leaders and people who accidentally become one. I agree, although I If I were a former doctors in Daniel tossing, who did it day her dissertation on this idea of the reluctance to lead I worthing she found was- reluctant leaders were often the most effective waiters outlined his even think about it. Do
I wanna be managed by somebody who wants to have power over other people. I know you want to be managed by the person who has no interest whatsoever in that role. I think that in some ways that makes people more effective managers is this You know I'm not in this, because I want to be in charge you I'm in this because I have a skill set or I'm able to get people to follow me and we can produce something really great together beer and so have you been brought into work with sports teams. Yes, sir, I've been working with them, some coaches and jams across the major sports. In the? U S eye with copper colleagues, to try to figure out. How do we draft players who are giver?
and also who have the humility and grant to want to keep improving ia, and then how do we also build that either in the team? Russian get a lot of fun. It was interesting as part of the reason I got interests in a lot of these topics was everything I have studied as an organizational psychologists you get to zoom in on it in sports and a sports anemia, and so I would see that there were here. There are certain players who were like shame barrier in basketball of such a great example. Shame is the guy who basically one championships, Michigan Guy, when european ships at every level Duke National Championship team he's? The M Vp, gives the NBA and discovers that he's not as physically talented as most of the people is competing against his accused of being too slow. He can't dribble as oh what a shame to shine, starts a study, basketball statistics and discovers, among other things, that there are certain spots in the court workable.
MRS most of the shots, and so he ends of adding value to the team by say my job as a guard Kogi and a force him to the one point on the court. Where he's gonna break a bunch of of show. How and you see tat, you think, ok, that that is the that's the mark of a giver. I'd say I don't have to be the superstar on the team, I'm going to find the one role I can play to make the team better, and the funny thing is Michael Louis wrote a great article about this. He called the shame the no stats all star, because a huge that's hard to evaluate really high real yeah, don't measure a lot of this contribution yeah, I think in sports a lot, but you see this in all kinds of workplaces. You have people who elevate the team, but there's no
a two track, whether contributing yes, yes, it's not super tangible fishes, frustrating to me, yeah hills, unjust! Now, do you ever get imposture syndrome and door panic with the notion that you being asked to solve a very nearly impossible things saw like you're coming in and they're going. Ok, this person is supposed to know how to make us all work cohesively in that's a very big undertaking that register very daunting task. Do you ever go like boy? Can I catch the check? My ass just wrote epithet. I've never said if that were not quite like that. I think, the way a place out is sometimes argue, contacted by people who have just they recover so much that it's hard for me to imagine that anyone knows anything that they don't write or that
I belong in the same room. Is them even yeah, within which the thing that that occurs to me pretty quickly is to say ok, you're, one of the cool things about organizational psychology is, I know nothing about any particular organisation, but I see the same patterns happen in so many different collaboration media, and I also have this this massive library of evidence that can give me frameworks and data points to say. Oh will have you tried this because we ve we ve tested this and three other organizations and here's what happened? How do you think would this would play out for you there's a set of resources available there that them It easily be helpful, but yeah. I've definitely felt that I think one of the clearest times was was working Google and they said. Ok, I want you to have a talk for a global team and you're gonna speak right after Larry Page, and your question is: if the organizational psychologists ran Google, what should we do differently? I know
to study this two year I ride over would have built Google yeah, but then I think ok, we'll lariat Sergei engineers and they ve never studied organizational behaviour and there's actually a lot that we know that might be relevant to them and so all of a sudden, oh, I do have things to say about this yeah. So is it more like many cases for lack of a better way to say it is easier to identify the negatives than to identify the positives. In that it's easier to see what potential is broken than it is to see what could be infinitely helpful that make any sense yeah. Does anyone know that I've seen a big difference there? So, in the Google case, one of the things that are striking to me was almost every greatly.
Tat they had made was the result of a collaboration. So maybe I think Gmail was invented by a soul engineer, but otherwise it was either a dynamic do out or whole team may came up with their their biggest innovations, and yet they hire individuals. They promote individuals. They fire individuals and add, read all this research on how? If you want to take a team seriously, you might one question that and say what but what if we? Actually, if a team to great work, we promote the whole team. What if we ran a lift out- and we found a successful team from another organisation and instead of hiring the one person, we thought it was a star there. We brought in the whole team, which seem like a good idea, because there's evidence both from Wall Street, analyse and also from cardiac surgeons that if they leave their teams, their performance dropped dramatically, even if their thought
the individual superstars, while the innocent, even those two Larry Insert air whenever they than ourselves, are like a crazy famous team right. They they are much greater than the sum of their party was. That was the thought, and so you know you that new say: will I actually see the kind of the strength and the weakness at the same time, which is you have these moments of greatness but you're, not organizing or company, to unleash them? As often as you could? right as ever talk about how we could do that, and then Google ended up doing a big study of what made their high performing teams different from the rest. And then training all of their managers across the whole company to try to improve the performance of those who are struggling, yeah just super cool. It's very. Are you familiar with the structure of ay ay a little bit, not as familiars you're? Ok, I find aid to have some crazy magic sauce in that It is an organization of sorts right and it's been around, for I don't know seventy eighty years now, there's no leaders,
no one's in charge. No one knows more than anyone else, and yet the thing thrives in has results for some segment of the people that try right I've, often incurious. Why nothing's me? I told after villages? Is anyone in the organizational psychology world interested in the fact that this thing has existed in a pretty peaceful stay in performing a task, but without any, fascinating fascinating. I have not seen anyone ass. I question ok because to me, when I look at religions and stuff doubting, it's almost always the time to kind of figure out whether they are implicitly better or worse off I think you're always seen is the human element in any organization yeah that has empowered and then exploits that, and then you know others system seem to all kind of Iraq.
Your corrode around that empowerment of a member gap. So I can they have to places where we we study things that are similar. What would happen in state strong cultures and how you create an organization where everyone agrees on what the values are and there so passionate about them that they actually enforce them. Neared appear, as opposed to needing some boss to control them right and then the other place we study. This is in self management so actually did a podcast episode where I went to a company that is really going to the extreme on this. I was interested in, can we create a world without bosses ass? I went to this tomato paste company called Morningstar, where they produce something like a quarter of the tomato paste in America. And they make hundreds of millions of dollars a year. They ve been running for thirty years and they have never had a single boss. Does that work? Could that be real and it turns out that one of them
that happens in your arrive. There is your given the job description of the person who did your role before you and then after you do it for a little while you get to rewrite the job description, and all you have to do is explained here. The task I wanna do and here's how they advanced emission. You take that to the five to ten people that you have to work more closely with an they approve it. You just reinvented your own job reengineer. They consistently are evolving that no further promoting themselves innocent it away. Yeah! No, I mean looms last time you saw job description that was actually written for the one person who is doing it at that? rise. There is a great way to let people keep customizing their work and then your reviewed on whether you follow through by your peers and all of your commitments. And how do they re people how to decide who gets they vote as a company based Your contribution Which is remarkable way non hiring and firing they all decide. They all agree on hiring.
It comes to firing, outlines how many employees or their legacy this getting logistically impasse. Ideals are now how many they have right now they grow a lot during the kind of the agencies in how they shrinking off season, but hundreds, if not thousands, ok and one other thing we do for firing is, if I think, you're doing a bad job. I would just say no dax you're not living up to their commitments you made. So I thank you, leave and then you can either Graham live, or you can say it now I disagree and then, if we disagree, we actually would then appoint. We agree on a group of neutral mediators, I'll, come and talk to us and then they'll give us their opinion, but you still have the chance to agree or disagree, and if you still reject eventually the Holcomb we would vote on it and they might bring in the founder to make the final decision all my down, I'm not saying that every organisations work that way, but when I think about this is cut of the closest
yeah how many bottle I could think of and there's the same level of individual ownership. Pride that you did. You said hey. These are the steps that I want to take and then you expect that other people will hold you up. number for that. Yet the only thing there is this book: it's the only ass That's a very as those this book that everyone seems to agree as they should follow, but he had. Is it just fastening? neither the guy who has six hours sobriety is just as much of an authority on that book is a guy with thirty years, yet no higher our response yeah right, which are you choose, yeah, you're, still picking someone who you think has a little bit more experience and sobriety the new year yeah you're, so to find someone who has what you want so that you can give them what they have. I think this needs to be said. aid from an organ, is, I really do I think, there's something into because when I get in fighting with people about their particular religion on like there's gates,
like you, don't why why do some echelon have information that everyone else does it? I dont understand Christians there is it that there is a text. Why would one person understand the text more than another person, wiser guy, with a robe on telling you what that text says it's right there, it's not like hidden, it's not even the poor. Are that you're. You know that I don't understand it and somehow I was on a brain ain't that ok. Lastly, frizzle. Oh, I know the name of a mechanism so work life podcast. How, after that come out. I want people to listen to their. Thank you. That's very kind of you, we Ted episodes ear. Ok, that's manageable! Yes, very Madge! Well, sir, I picked the topics that are most excited to dig into an epic, the people who, I think have mastered them. In their workplaces that are doing them differently and then try to figure out how we can all make work, suck a little bit less convinced fantastic work, life in where you add in your seasons, so we ve done tissue
ends and wherein preparations using three right now. Ok, right! So I will not come on you don't know February. It looks like February. I can't write. Lastly, I read your article in It is now that we ve been talking for two hours. I agree with nearly everything you said, you'd him, a letter that I don't think I know when I read stop trying to raise successful kids, which already I love the title. The air which is in the Atlantic is right. Now, I'm feeling it was yet right yet December issue. Ok, stop trying to re successful kid There were a couple of things in here that I was like. I don't know that I agree with your. I loved the statement which start there, because I think the notion of success we ve had made a really great guy. You teaches at Harvard come in and talk about what is success, and I like challenging the notion of success. I think fulfilment should be in that MAX. I think there's a lot of things that we don't consider when we think of what a successful person so that all right-
I love my wife and I fight about this we're in a current debate. We have made a decision, but we have an ongoing debate for my daughter, though this one loves. The dance she's clearly got some kind of scale for aid and she goes we should get. We should put you in classes and I'm like what does she just likes? The dance group would have that's it. What it does is half have the next stage. Can she just like the dance I dont know if I'm right or wrong word still on the debating phase of it? No decisions have been made, but part amigos. Now, that's the whole thing get her in a class. Then she goes to another level. Then, all of a sudden there's a we value now. This thing that just as joyful thing I don't know so anyways, so the title I really Tell me why you wander right, you're. Obviously, the Father three kids at probably is part of the explanation, yeah, so thousand. I have been trying to figure out in part Hata. We raise kids who are givers. We want our kids to be kind and carrying yeah, and I got an asked about that. A lot after given take like I don't know, I study adults, it
let me think about children- and you don't want to be one of those psychologists who screws up our gets. We eventually we just about. A year ago, we decided we're gonna write. A children's book which was just came out is called the gift inside the box, o grain, and that's all right now, yeah just just out ends. We were just talking a lot about. Ok, neither the process of writing a book for us was about a mysterious gift box. That is kind of grabbed by all these entitled kids more used to Amazon packages arriving at the door. Of course, that's for me here and of eventually the m. The gift box wants to go to the kid who wants to give it to someone Ah sir, we're talking loudly at twilight, zone episode, but could be very welcome. But we're talking a lot about? Ok, how do we take the ideas we are trying to communicate in this book and teach them to our kids and really still them and
I've been reading aloud. The research Allison had been disagreeing with various points in the research and eventually we said you know it. One of the biggest problems is that parents think that, in order to be a high achieving kid you have to be totally self absorbed or self focus, and even parents. You don't think that we just live in a society where you know you, the questions you ask a dinner are about what grades? Did you get? How many goals did you score? I love that part and thank you yeah and we we never really thought to ask. Will who did you help today and who did you who who helped you to show that we care about these values, and so I think that it just seems like a lot of parents. Don't know how to make that a priority. They don't know how to future kids to be kind and concerned about others, and so without our it lets. Let's sit down and see if we can explain what we ve been learning in trying to practice. So what awarded what'd you disagree with ok, so one of the things that I found triggering Ok in summit.
Guaranteeing circles. For example, there is a movement against intervening when preschoolers are selfish in their play. These parents worry that stepping it might prevent kids from learning to stick up for themselves and say that there are less worried about the prospect of raising an adult who doesn't share than one who struggles to say now what I disagree with his your interpretation of why not to intervene, so my kids go to preschool. We d intervene. The whole goal that peaceful conflict resolution do so you come in yell at me. That MIKE's told you share our say: did you tell MIKE the you? Don't want your stuff, so I want to intervene, but now For that reason, I am afraid my kids and I can stick up for himself just cause. I want them to leave with the skill set gas or you're trying to teach self reliance and conduct a resolution. Do yeah, I log, gonna be in a million conflict in if I solve them all.
I come in and go you should have been sharing yet you should intuitively want to share your thing. I feel like that's a little too much to ask of a four year old got it and I also think that's not actually make all my goal is to make forced them to sort this out. Yet if it starts going off the rails and people here- physical of course, I'll get involved. Just shy of that, I'm good with that. I I love it. I would love it ever if every kid got got that opportunity, because I also think it solves the tell tale problem. You'd have to learn to confront each other directly yeah, the movement of that we are reacting. To specifically, is parents saying you shouldn't teach kids to share out, because the event I want to share then their learning to you no kind of assert their own boundaries, William, how about you teach kids that they can stand up for themselves and share the about? You teach kids that not everything in life a zero sum game
and that when you let one of your friends play with the toy, that's not some cosmic loss, for they have just one and gotten a head right. You just you let them exe! the joy of playing with your toilet and then you're gonna get it back, and so we were just reacting to the idea that you know that that sharing is somehow a sign of weakness. Yes, would rank. Is ridiculous, yeah! Ok, I completely agree with that. I gotta give cause. I was. I was harsher my wife about her. Having an ego, I want to say God bless her she's raising our kids, because she does all these weird things were she's like just try once if someone links the toy wing offered to them when they leave and so my kids have got to experience this George, the joy of having given someone joy, which I dont know that I would have had that instinct in so they ve had a bunch of practice now like making people's day now I think we have another problem or like they try to give everything away is pretty damn q says: hey, that's very sweet. I think it is easier to adjust for
that then to say, I raise entitled selfish kid now go to change our values, yeah right. Ok, now we have another one preside They are also I'm always say that or else I wanted me to the fact that I read it like a horoscope Jumpy will read horoscopes it's like the things that they want to be true. They they find and then they just kind of shove away. They are so all this to confirm. My own point of view, I oh I love and those as Canada, jealousies of the eighth graters with the greatest academic achievement, moreover, are not the ones who got the best marks five years. Earlier, though the ones who are rated most helpful by their third grade classmates and teachers. So imagine that is a true statistic. I dont chances statistic. But I do remember, reading an article about creative kids are the hardest on teachers there, the most difficult there challenging the
beyond that your Blaine in front of them and again me as a challenger. I was like wait, a minute of course, of course, kids, who the teachers like more do better in school, because they're gone along with the programme, got it. So I can, I may add, a knee jerk like yeah, so that there is evidence that the most creative kidding class is the least likely to be there disrespect right round of annoy you do in the programme. Stop raising your hands, not it out taking us off schedule. So this effects it has been replicated a few different times, and sometimes it son with pure ratings of helpfulness as well. Ok, so I would think about the creativity. Access is separate from the the helping her kindness access, ok and what we're seeing is that the kids who are helpful either because they have the natural instinct or because they ve been taught to be that way. Who knows a few things are happening number one
and they have a purpose for learning that goes beyond just their own immediate personal goals. They can say: okay, the more I learned, the more I can share with other people and that sort of connects them to a community as opposed to feeling isolated and that's motivating for them a second. This happening is when they spend all this time, helping others there actually improving their own learning. We we all know that the best way to learn something is to teach it, and so these helpful kids are actually doing themselves a favour by explaining staff to their classmates and kind of trying to the gaps in their understanding, yeah, and I didn't you- can do all that and also be the creatively disruptive kit. I liked to be helped.
but I also want to march through the due to my own drama. Hurrah, ok right! Does all this support this kind of notion that there is a approach for kids. There seems to be a little bit of a desire for people to create the perfect kind of person, kid yeah and what I argue sometimes his that now- and this is again a frame it in another way too, as I often you're frustrated with Republicans and Democrats, if they actually think that if the whole country was either democratic or report that that there would be a perfect country, and I argued no- we totally need each other dude since it reach some rational middle ground. So doesn't the world need Steve Jobs and Mother Teresa? Isn't that what this world requires for us to function? Don't we need some asshole selfish, rather fucker, Mega redoubts, ok, telling Lhasa, ok, Steve jobs if he were less of an asshole but even kicked out of his own company.
In the MID ninety days, how much more could apple of done between eighty five and ninety seven? Maybe Steve jobs need to go off and take a different perspective and refreshes thinking. Maybe he needed to evolve and become a little bit more mature and a little bit less nasty actually talk to Walter Isaacson about this. So he You ve interviewed what two hundred people who were closely with jobs knew him well other guy who wrote the Black YA, and he said the most consistent theme was people said Steve jobs could have been kinder than it would have cost.
nothing to show a little bit more respect to other people, and they would have work that much harder for him because they felt like he was giving them credit yeah. They felt like they were valued and loved you, and I think that when people say will you now Steve jobs? Look at all the successes achieved, but he was an asshole, I would say yeah. He achieved a lot of that success, not because he was an asshole, but in spite of his asshole lorry in now insistence dynamics, there's a term equip analogy which is clunky, but it means many routes to the same end, ok and in any complex system. By definition, is ECHO file. I hear you're in Amaze as opposed to a tunnel. Ok, and so, if you think about it, ok, we'll one way to be you know to have extremely high standards, is to be a tyrant yeah, that's not the only one and I think we all have lots of degrees of freedom to say. Ok, what are the different ways that I could achieve this goal, and I wouldn't
love to see more people say I you shouldn't idolize Steve jobs. You should idolized specific value or a specific skill or behaviour that he had adding his. You know if he had a superpower. It was clearly obsess, maybe he's obsessed with perfection. Ah, they had probably the highest standards of anybody in this industry and so great, take that analysis figure out all the different ways that we can make those standards a reality and in our own lives you because it does seem to be this weird equation where it requires one person to go. No it's possible and everyone else was no. It's impossible. There's naturally be friction when you talk about a lot in your first book. There is friction in that, but it does require one person to hold firm and go now it's possible, and I just gotta get you all by India that by Hocker hooker crook. I don't know what the best strategies you do that your profession, but is there room for someone to be going no home, it's possible
must join me and still be kind. It's always hard for me to take specific examples, creating most human these are flawed. Sure, and you know anybody that I say was a great giver. You will find a moment where they probably seemed more like a take her here or there were four had a pervert sexual life yeah, having lots of ways to disqualify some idea and then their cathode and were never hear from them again. I when I would rather do is say: let's look at the evidence, So what are my favorite studies looks at the ears of computer hardware and software companies and forget them raided by their seafarers on wet they put other people's needs above their own, whether they care about own teammates well being as opposed to just profits, or you can also forget indicators of whether their takers lack today have a giant photo themselves in the company's annual report. Do they pay themselves a lot more than anybody else in the company
today. I talk about the company success using words like I and me and you do that. What you see is that the takers, actually there These have more fluctuating volatile performance, so their overconfident, they tend to swing for the fences they take. Huge rests. The you're lucky for a while kit, yeah. Sometimes it has offered in the long run and are making systematic mistakes and they lose their bleed talent, because if you are a star ill and work for a take her forever and soon screw, this I'm gonna go work. For somebody great, whereas the givers have much more sustainable long term performance. They earn loyalty, even when their people leave. They start referring other people. They often boomerang and will return and people feel egg. Ok, king here for not only a mission, I believe in but a person I believe in you, and I looked at Evidence- I say: okay, we see that across hundreds of companies. I don't need one individual role- model booze,
doesn't give her. What I have is kept the experiences of lots and lots of people accumulated, and that tells me it's it's very possible. I think a lot about areas generate dahlias work at Bridgewater now, and radical transparency and idea. Meritocracy is so. I spent a lot of time studying this. Their hedge fund that spin wildly successful. and one of the things they do is they say. Look it's actually a mark of caring about someone to challenge them because it says I believe in your potential and I care about your success as their identity, a pike S upstart there on how to love criticized. I would love to learn how to do that: love credits or at least to crave it. Even if you know, lumberyard, knowing you need it at the beginning I took away from that. Was they had built a whole culture where they said? Look if you say something nasty about a person behind their back you're doing them a disservice, cause there's a potential learning opportunities that your depriving them of, and so, if they catch you back stabbing
then, when they will take you in front of that person and say: please front stabbed him. So they made him, they can find out what the feedback was young and they ve done that with the end your company buying in to say, no one has the right to hold a critical opinion without speaking about it. If we all follow that principle, we can say look, you know what I think you did a really crappy job today and you know here the ways that you could be better and I could hear that and say: that's coming from. Somebody is like a sports coach, they're they're, trying to help me improve yeah. I would love to see more collaboration. Work that way, I guess, if it's happening to everyone knew would be hopefully provide easier, taking a person. It also one of the things you learn did areas you learn to give yourself a second score. So when somebody goes to criticise ear, you say I looked- I have already given me, the de minus catching against suddenly convince them that it deserves and When they might is right. All I can do is I can say I mean to try to get an a plan for how well I took the DE minus
I am actually evaluated to my performance reviews whether I can take critical feedback you had. No, I haven't today eight whatever, whatever problems you have with me, bring it on and I know that my success here- whether I get promoted, whether I get paid to pay and showing that I can take that view that I learned from ETA me. That's a dream and play amazing. Ah I mean what you look more. Could you want in an employed in silence like open to change and yet not gonna shut down In that spirit, I have a rule that whenever I, whether I'm on a stage or whether, working with someone new. I always ask: what's the one thing I can do better, and so you can you tell me now or when you do your fat check later, you can do it and I listened to find out what is now. I'm not blondes Margo. whereas I literally can I now will really have to rack. Are one that's lame too you're not helping me. So your definitely not together
learn up with something we also have. Our own grab can probably come up with some day. I hope it, though, where the big tee the Scarlet T, take her in all seriousness, that I think this is such an important practice, because here I am interactive to people you spent thousands of ours now right listening to lots of different people. Talk, you have a ton of wisdom about what it takes to be interesting and insightful. And if I don't learn something from you, then I have failed in part of my job as somebody who learned for a living amazing, I'm gonna have to decompress, because currently I'm just like this was a great Vulcan interview. I know I know, and will you have a right, we'd, true and their kin, and there are always areas we reward. Think where Jordans
Obviously we have virtually the exact same berlifitzing like you're. Sorry I got no style complains your mice. Ups are fucking gorgeous. I see some vascular at EU and went room everything's. Looking good Will Adam. I'm were so glad to have gotten finally talk about to you, because we ve talked about you so often, and we will continue to do so. Such a treat to be here after listening at adjoining, so many episode, but you were having please check out he and his wives children's book, which is called the gift inside the box, the gift inside the box and then listen to work life bond cas which is exciting and then so get yourself into the warden business schools. He can take a glaring with me. I hope you are in teaching having over there and I hope, everything's going exactly how you would hope, because I'm so excited by your work in its really fun. Have you thank you. enemy here. So I feel pretty lucky. Ok great, please come back talk to us again when you write another article and I'll try to poke holes, and, if tell me
China is a major regret that guy and now my favorite part of the show, the back checked with my soul me a bad man, oh come onto the armature experts, there really bothers you. Let's get real, it were actually bothered you, no, no! No! No, it doesn't. It doesn't blanket Lee. Ok, but sometimes I feel like when you start on these things. There's just no end in sight. Well, it feels very inward, like I'm not here when you're done you're doing with me you're just like on your own right of doing you know I'm actively trying to make you I'm trying to think of words that you would laugh at a sort of early gear, and I said, like get a plane making sense goes naughty stretch. Italiana play right, land is called a structured
So all of it is needed to make you laugh now, but if it does, it feel like that can join in again a server there, any actions a moment you like now. I like it always armies there is. I know I am too ok. So there are act since you lie like it when you do at the end, I makes it does make me laugh, but then I feel like it goes on and on and on its enormous volume of quantity over quality. You know quality, Quality issue at all, be over quantity, little they're just a little bag. I didn't want it to be. I need I do the meter Bernie though I did not get a great job Ella. they can now put that on the shelf: ok, ok, Gregg, animal! I'm in love in love me to join my ranks, air topple yeah. I guess
I'm already emailed him as many times as I've emailed air told you look almost over use. I mean well he's connecting us with so many other experts, and I just want to use what one of em for real dream: the algerian women vocally wanting two year in Panama. He was banned gang. Our key knows every anybody intellectual sphere in the world of work, a baby knows every wine he's very connected. Yet very humble, oh, my god, you're not gonna find the level humility with his with his credentials. Exactly what a humble guy any seems very normal when he comes any, doesn't have an air All who, even though, is from West Bloomfield, were the rich people are four year he didn't trigger any my rich people, stuff email me ice cream. Why male do ice cream noise stretching, however, schedule with it
ah as a thing. My large. We that's crazy because we were I beg you to have him on, but he wants to be under here's. My thing I think of consider things I just I don't have time to execute them here I mean, I think those different minds sets its. I think it's more of a switching of a mindset like he isn't even an option for him. Not to do it he's not thinking like do. I have time is like this is what I do. I want and deserve an assistant. He said, send my ice cream to rob annihilated online to online arouse, get more reason. You can hear what do you think he did? I don't know, I'm not goin awry eyes, symbolic, lower fuckin head some away it at the God the imposed are no. No. I don't think he did do the ambit of most people? and then I don't think you do that. But we do there was
hey here's some other time, management strategy that I could really benefit from. I know, but listen I first by Don T as an assistant cause. He responds all my emails immediately and so humble he's a humble and he is cute as hell to soak you, but it's still like he had the thought of something nicer than he executed. That thought immediately. He didn't put her to do list for something to be learned: hear from him, and I don't know what we should have a back on. Just to ask him how to be considerably thoughtful. Will you really well you ever everyone knows by now? Yes, he is he. He asked us to give. Him could this ism within two. Then we said we would give it to him on the fact you guys requiring its. We have to do it, but isn't it possible that I'm I dont have a criticism of somebody Gabby. He said that's bullshit and it's not fair to him any love that attitude I do too, but, like you can watch I watch beyond ceasing one
thus one on on american idol. I don't have any criticism for that. I mean for up flawless thing, happen or I do they do they do, but he wants it so that he can grow. You can get better and I think that's good and I'm gonna give him one. Ok great yet so mine is that I think, because we ve been in touch through email and he always responds very quickly and very thoughtfully smells like suddenly are thing begin here. This is a good good, but I just hope I hope he's not sacrifice. In his own life in his own time and his own needs for other people's me right. Although he says he is, he says he enjoys it. So I don't know. I mean I, I believe him, but I get nervous when someone is so giving that their sacrificing their,
own staff, and that's just my fear, is morally or run over near mine would just be a suggestion of like make sure your question whether you're narrative has taken over. Like I said this about J Leno, I get the fact that he's a guy who's, never swam and is Poland, doesn't take vacation, but that become something you say to people in the result. Is you don't ever gone? Vacation swimming your poorly rattle? think is advisable better understand, sir, so so Adams premises, givers succeed, so he's gonna walk the walk here, but I would just ask: from the challenge, his own narrative, occasionally yeah, that's our credit that can be done just when you identify yourself or the concept because it doesnt route. leave a lot of room for just change right. Let's keep these two
glared at a young age? I dunno what age he was when he wrote that both policies- thirty six and he declares this- is the way the live, yeah and then what then there's no changer right of evolution, maybe already maybe figured it out at thirty. Second cause sounds like it sounds like you might have. I guess, but energy presentation and the weak communicates in his ideas. I dont have any criticism for that year and then you, the again he walks the walk. He connected us with all this people that we love and we ve had some successful riders since I managed children's books, Lee for now. That's our citizens like favorite book, we rode at the Cannes, and here I would have no more but his personal life. Well, no, I don't think he's asking for criticism on back. Well, I think it isn't it all one thing I think in some way: it's all one thing the gear You know that's true and away. Why I'm sorry, I I liked everything he ceremony,
stick to what we just sat his he means to make sure he's meeting his own needs before meeting others raw, putting his light mask on first, I don't know he's doing that right because it would appear That would be very easy to get codependent with that kind of actually order which, like I need people to think I might give her my knee brief. I want people to, I don't know, but again I know I don't know that he's paying any price and it's probably aroused great, have highly but that's our criticism is email. That of too fast- and we appreciate it- They were grateful, Billy super grateful and we love you wanna talk to you. Do I get my saw the hour? I wish to me that would be the critic summers like oh yeah, I'd, because if he came back and a year now, I'd be cool became at next week It tells me it is. As though tells me, I have no criticism or is it would be at the white to have him back every we re
have him as a member of the podcast? So maybe the criticism is he's too low if a ball and is not a member of our party yeah. That's my criticism is not here and there did it. You think ISM publisher flew about here. I don't know Question cuz, I could be a criticism like. Maybe you should have asked us to pay for his trip or something I would. I would want to reimburse him if he flew out here. This it was an he ain't, we own the money for the ice cream and the books only are we owe him from money so much we honey. That's our criticism. Adam give us a bill. We haven't got your bill. Yet your lay on scenarios, zero or enforcer Yeah- remains to definitely use square up. Early health is voicing their joint square Adam! That's what I'm mad about. Ok, so some facts
poops lie down like a blue, I had a little group sees unlike a drop in the toilet now if you and I have had a little evolution and friendship and in that I'm farting around you more Are you he's gonna? Let me smell them. That's right! I'm have area and are not there. Yet how I feel about that. I feel two things I feel happy. Ok, grain first and then I feel excluded now anonymous. Well, yeah. I feel for actually further goes on the smell. Then I feel happy then I feel like I guess it is. Doesn't really care anymore about. I know you want of old ways. One was like I don't trust you notify running, and then, since I did, is that I don't care what you think about yeah yeah, that's right, formation by all know, it's it's because you don't. Let me smell it there I know it's not that you're so comfortable. Well, now what I
Won't. Even do I wonder this from my family only doing from air weekly he is. I have a very specific reaction when I need a lot of onion rings, which was discover not in seventh grain, on the bus ride to mere junior high and air, and I were in the back of the bus in fucked up the whole body. Oh my god. What is it? What is definitely of my career parts, it was terrible, it was it was you remember it still. It was an act of terrorism. Oh and I I was embarrassed by it and was like that's too much for better visibility. But it was an accident on Europe? Will I didn't nosegay my beast, yeah and weigh very specific, and so I will pretty much. I would only do that front. Karen cause he's a disgusting man. Just like me, I mean he is so disgusting and the way I am discussing so it's gonna like were you know, we're both grows
That one was my mother. Would you know we can have junk food? We just wasn't in the budget on this rare occasion she brought home on those big bags of frozen onion rings, and I just put them all on a baking sheet the more like a couple pounds: yeah loved our lives. Only I couldn't stop myself Brow and, You didn't know that was gonna, be the outcome now. I know I've never eaten them in that quantity. I dont think San hey. Did you notice now when we go some of the has any rings up out of the Angolan for five of them? I won't get my, an order of another year, beer how you were burned. I was by the onion, rang yeah. Well, ok, so he said that he was barely good enough to get
Harvard Diving team, but then we had another guest on. He knows Adam who said that he's a phenomenal diver said who we do not. Even currently you still an exceptional diarrhoea, they he'd dove recently and it was very impressive. Also, you know what I would like to talk to him about, but I do want to make him on camp. Is you know I'm a student of the Olympics I am specifically. I do not like what activity gives you the most rock and barred and, as you know for me for my money that sprinters gap- that's these- an volleyball players and it's the guardian divers. The
Male divers have wheezy good bye. I mean liquids objective but muscular Emily. Yes, it's nice, they almost gymnast bodies which can make sense. I guess the bear the rotating in the air that requires so much abdominal dries is all in the APS yeah, but they also really nice but cheeks. The Olympics are coming up so excited at Tokyo, twenty Twond. I doubt you even have let me small. So my friend Rutledge met the other night here, while he was in town covering some olympic style and he's going to temporary Olympic yeah. You know they do those stories before to get their lives, and I always yeah. So I guess he was in town in one of those an ally, and he said: do you wanna go to Tokyo Olympics? Should we go to the Tokyo Olympics may be all I would love to ok. we should go. Although I kind of like watching year, we would do
watch it in our hotel rooms. We go there and that we just stand that here. We have a couple of events that we were gonna: spectator, ok, but then the ones we thought would play better on tv will decide watch was right. I like this idea to stay at the park hired scene of the lost in translation. Why? What are the sound water for the fund to be a wise, unlike attire? Ok, so he's a super taster and super taster, which we didn't really get into is, if you have more than thirty taste buds and a space the size of a whole punch on your tongue we are super taster seeking tested by cutting out a peaceful time. Counting the hell, you cut out a whole bunch circle, ok, and then he put on your time and then account. If you count the piece of paper, newtonian cow,
but what you want me to see them under the programme under that tv, radio, you you get the outline out there, you either the outline or put the piece of paper on your tongue and then out wine it with a felt pan. No, don't you do that for sharpers. For breakfast there are super tasters average teachers and non tasters. Oh, I see what you specific pension standard notebook hole into a clean piece of plastic or wax paper and put on the funding your tongue. That way, you can see through it in the hope that the Don T care about it in some like it was a pleasurable than you. Think being able to take things better would be, would be nice, but it sounds like a detriment to his life. He doesn't like heartless there's. My critique gives a my taste buds remove yeah, so you can enjoy chocolate and calmly chocolate. I've been wanting to chocolate down at four days through long. Yes,
Ray crock was fifty two tiger you're right about that. Lufthansa people make up ten percent of the population as you said, we were talking about left handed people on our own couple months ago. I won't. We will realise what we saw was left handed people. The percentage of them is varies drastically amongst different country. That was fastened, which I thought was fascinating and I think what they were saying was in some countries its consider bad clearly left hand. So they kind of force these kids at a young age to deal with the programme. Yet to start writing with the right hand, even if that's not what there's mean are naturally got at or my favour. Teachers in college was is a german professor who taught job
couple different cool classes with him and am he's he'd, say the weird stuff to me. I have liked me in some weird way, like we had somewhere connection sex tens or one was. I was allowed to use a word processor to take written tests so that I could spell check, because I was labeled dislike that snake in so I said, I mean extra time slang, spelling running as I I think the opposite is true. which is his way of saying he felt a smart need access to which I like, but one time he just want by Minos. I was writing and he goes when I was a child would hit you hand with a ruler very hard, and you would not ride like this Oh, he was not permitted to write lifting of your last BC, so in maintaining fifties, Germany in Germany the rate of left handedness is nine point. Eight three percent, though hoping as
if you like one in ten people that you meet her left hand- and I don't know where groups of friends only talk about it- I guess Charlie's left handed. I mean people are yes, I, like a four percent in the worse ideas. I hate it won, T be one person, through the hole I wish it was like point: zero one percent. There was something that people gathered around a watch me write a letter. I have my family's lefty. They are my all the mighty sisters in my mom, After all, I should be hanging out with them, but mostly that year, sisters in your mom and I should put on public shows where we write with our left. Here. People stand any junior love, We take suggestions, article eight and then we make an my guy f wow undermine people, women applaud and cheer
oh boy, okay, TED Orson, I'd, I don't think he's the most successful trying cases in a supreme court. I found a bunch of other peoples and then there were some less, but he wasn't. Ah on any of the who was now, but the Oracle figures are there in the modern era. Modern air vulgar, very modernity by I doesn't mean is not is incredibly successful where he is and he you know he worked for George Bush. I would love to interview we should hear he is illustrated. Some points that I just would not have thought of. I don't think the waiters. We should welcome the very convincing person Adam just reminder he's the one that taught us about equity, banality back with reality or new favorite word we're gonna use it excessively and twenty twenty. We used it alot one day and then we forgot to use at ever again, but we'll try to bring it back
You will end up their aquifer now see what we want of theirs. So that's a one of our resolutions. I guess- and twenty twenties use echo finality every day. Yes, with reckless abandon their war, Adam grant us we'd love cures or criticism. We love you too, hearts, our sole phenomena? Free, you tiles to love you in the way we want to live,