BJ Fogg is an author and social science research associate at Stanford. BJ sits down with the Armchair Expert to discuss his approach to changing behavior, growing up in the Mormon faith and his new book Tiny Habits. Dax commends BJ's approach of habit building by stating "after I blank, I will blank" and BJ talks about overcoming a childhood condition. The two discuss the behavior grid, lowering the bar on aspiration and technology in regards to behavior.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome! Welcome! Welcome armchair expert experts on expert I'm dead. Cupboard joined by miniature madman. I pray you weren't. A cape today wrath yeah we're through pretty it looks kind of like handmaids tale. That's right out using Amish but yeah same world near its great look. Thank you. Today we have the first war, what a great name as be J Fuck, Can you think of a better name? Now needs a doctor. I believe Doktor PDA thought area be given is a social science research associate at Stanford an author? He is the founder and director of the steam for behaviour, design lab. He has a new book a tiny habits, the small changes that change everything. Now this is,
a very useful, pragmatic episode. It is it really can teach you how to trick yourself into doing things you normally would want to do. You know how to achieve your goes. A little by little. I've already started to implement some of their tactics, attaching a behavior to some. You already do yes, really genius. To be honest, he was fascinating, so Peter. If I'm gonna blow your mind, is gonna help you achieve all the things you ve never dreamt of. Also we are live in LOS Angeles on April force. If you wanna come see, armchair expert live. I implore you to go to our website armchair expert pod dot com and follow the link for tickets. Come see us and party hardy on April. Fourth
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I kind of fantasize. I already have you know by almost there's one of the greatest job someone can have, which is used. I say lines in front of this camera and they pay me too much. It couldn't be better, but an initiative even better and more preposterous that there's money associated with it, but I do fantasize about being a professor because it does seem like you can kind of craft your world that alot other occupations don't allow you to do. That is my plan. Is the accurate, maybe maybe I'm a really weird breed? Ok, I'm not full time. Ok! Well, that's how animals only by design I've found a craftsman If I were foot and academics run a research lavish Stamford teats. Frankly whatever I want, whenever anyone have tons of flexibility, yeah and then either foot and industry, and that pays for everything
right we got Havre everything as well, I like to think of it. It didn't forms my research questions and academics are helps Manderson. What's gonna really move the needle in the real world, and so let's bring that in and the things that need to be. Daddy more rigorously academically, I can do it within Stamford and I love tee my god, I am just crazy about the change you do like the huge intro glasses? Are you just do very specific, my ones small yeah? I graduate students tougher wanna get a big mix of students out a wide mix. It students was typically classes. Twelve people among fifty students will apply. A blind man. I want to be in this kind of satellite and then I pick. Oh, I would hate iceberg twelve that I think are the best fit for the class yeah, and I
really distinguishable. They graduate students or not, and I want to balance of that, but The undergraduates can just be rock stars. Maybe more and more as a pattern. Is that a lot of people bell at some point during their undergrad right? There is now a lot of famous cases of entrepreneurs who know don't, even maybe they all may, I think that's been sort of exaggerate. Ok, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. There have been cases, but the few that have been publicize make it look like bigger than it really is. One of my students called me two days. You he's doing a thing in South Africa in turning down there and he called me and he basically said I wanted to buy above a blah and it wasn't about coming back to Stanford and I just said luck, how much still waiting for you at Stanford Comeback. Do the work
done, and then you have your whole life, so this thing it is helping them understand more. What we learn from SAM Harris is that you can virtually just leave Stamford for ten years and then just return and that, if nothing ever happened, they seem to have a very liberal policy on coming and going was one of the great things about Stamford. Is there really about to students from helping the student succeed? Students actually don't know how much power they have. Students want something it can happen It's amazing we'd love, college indefinitely. Really we would have obsessed with come up and virtually everyone gets lecture. When we have further, you got my I would always reverenced hours. We definitely go. We thought it last year we
Both have the fantasy Monica. I have when we retire just taking glasses recreational and is never writing the papers. Just kind of Vienna is learning that's what I did not ass an undergraduate so as it Brigham young the eyes I was raised and warm and family in California ended the Good Mormon boy thing, I'm different him young and I was in no hurry to get through. So I would Every semester open the course catalogues. I like this. This is no, you don't have a career. Jack remind it will I felt really lucky because then I took some time off and travelled literally around the world of the back back, and I just come back to parliament as music class. I want to take this art class in no time equally, I was pre mad English, major, technically but I made so little progress towards the major. I ended up twice the number of units you would need to graduate with no regrets, but also no debt, because the university was so in
so when I was also running my own little business and working on so it worked now stand for. Students can do that does its good work, loves eventually expense, oh yeah yeah. What do we do we look at now? Is it is it? Is it in the eighties, probably some my body, but the Good NEWS, here's a really awesome alot of people don't notice, based, your parents and come- and I dont want to give the exact numbers here, but I'll just make one up. If your parents make less than sixty thousand dollars a year, yeah, but it's something like this then Stanford pays all your tuition and other costs obeyed so you can go to Stamford for free and others and other eighty are higher up it about a hundred hundred ten thousand and there's another tier. So in other words for me, as somebody who I just want to work with them
interesting young people show that just opens the door and a lot of people don't know. This is cheaper for some people to go to Stanford then, like I start the present city college. It is cheaper to go to Stamford, then present setting quality of that deadline. They know that the EU they don't make that are part of a headline harm in it in its heavy cause. I am hearing that increasingly, we just didn't event it you see, lay in a kind of you know, there's a lot of that going on there as well and yeah. I guess it a nice way to color redistribute the opportunity? Well, it stands as I see it, it's all about, let's create the leaders at the future who will solve the big hard problem here, The assumption there is the solutions are between the disciplines and you got Reference has also already banana Gambia. So let's bring people together with all these perspectives and backgrounds to tackle the hardest problems. I like that was looking at your background in, as you just said, you were more menu it to be. While you, you got your undergrad therein, your masters, yeah yeah and
published in some kind of Mormons swaying outlets ride him so when I go to you talk and then just even speaking from the data, not my honour, anecdotal thing Lois. Rate of smoking in you talk right, generally very low levels of obesity compared to national average Lula. Drinking where the national average there seems to be within the Mormon Foundation. A kind of a group go of betterment is, it is fair to say, you're right. Yet. Arts well before the university starts. When you're like this bag, tiny beyond yeah, I've been friends, several Mormons over the years in there is this kind of valued sense of industry and just kind of this self improvement. So the fact, You would have gone into behavioral science and specifically how to create habits that, but let me build another, yeah you're right on your exactly run on. I think, that's why that's built into me now
today am a gay man. I've been targeted for twenty five years. I am obviously not an active practising mormon, but growing up. I grew up in us four faithful, Mormon family in Fresno, California, the most glamorous replacing can truly s and there's a saying it's not in the scripture I dont think, but there's a saying among Mormonism. This doesn't publicized. But here we go here as man is God one was, as God, man may become so from the beginning Europe, instead The sense of you can progress and reach fuck yeah yeah, that's part of it, which has the downside like you, ve got to just keep pursuing better and you ve gotta be Perfect people blazing perfection again. All these things and in some ways tiny habits is a reaction to that you don't have to be perfect B. I did so part of that aside.
Push that aside and you think that notion that, as man is God once was in his God is man can become. My education on the incredible success of the Mormon faith was one that empowered people individually more than the other religions, did that you were you have this right, your average parishioner can receive a message from God which kind of differs from some of the other religions and they credit that, for being one of the reasons it spread in the way that it did, because it was an empowering relationship of God. Maybe you that there is that sense. I think, but also you have the missionary effort in so doing the thing that my ancestors had done and all my role because I want wanted to your mission, I went to prove to the poorest parts of Peru, which even now, I saw value no active prattle. Seeing believing Mormon, but I so value that, to your experience, serving people improve were totally different from me. Sure,
just seeing the world from their perspective and it's not like two weeks. It's two years. One returned home, the culture shock was coming home, not going to Paris Perhaps the arguments just the indulgence and I just could not believe carpet the floor and the size of their homes and whatever? So it really was a wonderful way too broad my arise want to add to that of my Mormon friends who went on mission Conversion rate is horrendous, Will you allow me? I mean you're, knocking on hundreds, doors and being rejected. Yes I'll say on top of it that you probably pick up some grit in that two years, that that's kind of a good character build area yet is in its no accident that a lot of Mormons are great salespeople awe and that they also train you young to get up in front of people in speaking of these little talk, ok and that benefits me now, because I love speak, I love teaching young Vida. Give a key.
At a moment's notice. I give up sixty minutes. Be dig it up. I would love it right on it. I am, I think it comes from that, but also having a passion shit ed- but getting set back of people say no yeah Monica, I'll? Go up or boy, I'm right on your blog was a teacher aid for assistance Philip Zimbabwe, who created the famous Stamford prison experiment, was all ways that accurate. Yes, what a juicy tutelage just remind people, so the Stamford prison experiment famously was they made some students guards and some students inmates in and they just observed them for some above them. Innovation wasn't a true experiment by was an experience
it was an answer. Yes, yes, it became under all kinds of critique and went out and in one of my favorite part of the whole thing that was pointed out at the orchestra, haters of the experiment Tito's an experiment that he's not realising our maybe was real, but he too is a. He is a guard in this experiment. Ultimately, cause he's in here the God of this whole thing is created, so he did probably making decisions, he wouldn't normally Matt and it's in the basement of the psychology department at Stanford and at sea, it's going right quickly so absorbed in it. It took his wife, the girl, really your cried in some detail this. This is not going well until they had to call it off. There is violence reigned. There is like people got physical with each other, a little data, but but people adopted these rules and they played these roles and it just grew and growing an expanded had this dynamic so quickly,
nobody expected young, like I'm, a Micro, a Lord of the flies or from Micro Verdun innocent? What were the big take away? A bat like was it that appear labelled something but come. That thing is that the are gonna be classed as surprising power re over how we behave, and we don't even recognize that here know that the context and ass the rolls were given and the identity the way we think it but are Sol's, then leads to whole bunch papers now, there's an upside to this and in tiny habits in some ways. That's what you do. You unlock your positive pretend by setting identity. But in this case it was quite negative, don't worry. I won't. The dramatic was- was the biggest yeah? I think all of our egos would tell us. You know, I'm me, and I know who I am and you could put me in any situation, and I would I would do as I normally would do. But in fact none of us pretty much would do what we would normally do if the context radically changed or our role radically change in a winning
the changing your behavior there's. Only three we have an epiphany which can design really for yourself, and others too is tiny. It's turning. Changes will talk about that, but three there's the third way is We design your environment or your context in young and that reliably works. Now you need a big, fast change. That's what you got it! but not all of us can go, I'm gonna move. I'm going to change my friends, I'm going to be wearing a suit and a tie and a name badge and you know be a preacher in Peru right yeah. So I watched over fifteen years, tens of thousands of people attempt sobriety and then I've watch certain things result, certain outcomes. Geography
Cochiaro's is what we call it a lot of addicts. What will try a geographical cure, so they just can't break their addiction they're, not ready to admit that they are a powerless over it. But they'll do some radical thing. I'm moving to Texas and I'm going to be a rancher, has a grandiose schemes that are going to shake them out of this pattern, so it sobriety the geographical cure. Rarely bears any free when I was reading about your three ways in the environment. Change you mean one of them. I was thinking of this interest, thing. I read about the London to being shut down and that are all these people that would normally commute to work on it, wherefore to either right bags or walk in that when it resumes service, they lost a ton of passengers, because all these people discovered. Oh, I like walking a work or like biking, and then I stop at this thing. So in that case, It did radically shift people's behaviour. There to and from work a key, redesigning your environment, whether you actually move or just readjust and stay in the same place.
Is to do it in a way that it makes the new behaviors you want to do with the easy more. It's the only you can get it done. I can't write the tube now I have the bike have to walk and the unwanted behaviors, make them harder or impossible. So it's not just a new place. It's you ve, gotta. Have that in mind new behaviors. Do I want to facilitate or make mandatory and the flip side of that right? Is it fear? An adequate and you go somewhere else or still substances in that place, Digital this in the probably the same amount of those scumbags in every city. You shine on may know where she is well and you can do it even in the smallest of ways where you turn off notification, Ryan, more you put water by you in an import. Tiny habits is an inner play with environs, change, because you can do there's a simple thing. Like turn out not advocate, since which is tiny that then it's a big impact, causing you're, not getting interrupted or port,
Wanna put a running. Your work does so part of fine of change. No people, I'm gonna, think change is fun, but it can be used at almost like this puzzle. Are this challenge like how do I redesigned is to make it so easy to do? The things that I want to do here, help me in so just in general, I think most people can relate to wanting to change as new This proves people make resolutions and quite off people pursue a goal and they fell at that goal, and then it lowers their self esteem and everything else. A kind of results and enough not get maybe replacing you started in their so many errors in the way that we pursue goals than you discovered in your lab. You studied help people change you, study, behaviour and the new study habits in. So you have a very different approach. Then the conventional, I'm stopping all calorie and take that you know I'm gonna
got six days we'd all these things that are we can all relate to. You have a much kinder softer approach, which you have proven is more effective. So in behavior design, which is what I describe my because they were designed. Behaviour is defined as a certain type of person doing it. Action in a given context or environment. So it's not just the act, it's the type of person in an environment, doing a specific action this morning. For example, I didn't my usual surfing work out that I'd be doing in my way. Every morning in my go servant as my work out this morning, I did three sets of pushups right and so dp cuz, I know you're. I know you're in your habits steps. Yet after I t a. U have just really invented a minute, so so well done yet so times when I travel, I won't do any work out now. It's not that
I failed in the habit, but it's a different habit habit. I haven't mile use different than the habit. I haven't California, the work on habit and then, when you travel, what's in there, play, different cause, you're in a different context, yeah and so figures that it's not just the action is a certain kind of then, in a context of doing an action, if you change any one of those things, it's a different behaviour right in the ultimate. All is. If I understood everything quickly is to have behaviour, that then becomes habit. The test, Nirvana in tiny habits. Yeah! That's what we're talking about that now there are fifteen ways. Behaviors can change none of those fifteen. One of them is to create and sustain a habit. So I've met doubt there's fifteen ways: behaviors can change, but if you want to boil attempt to be quite simple helpful. It there's a one time something you do one and done. Ok, give an example that kidney replacement
That is why on and if it could be, you sign up to work with a trainer. Ok could be you buy a steamer for vegetables one and done them next haven't forming habits and then the third bucket stopping habits. So those are the most practical wanted people mostly care about your and you break them down into dot, span and path right. That behaviour grid lines the fifteen ways. Behaviors can change and it's a three by five matrix and is kind of like the periodic table of elements, but for behaviors, and so I this out because it didn't exists and rising. We young we work behavior for thousands of years and more rigorously hundred thirty or so, but had been no mapping of here are the different ways: behaviors can change bigger types.
I tried to get a graduate student in Europe today. My mentoring role help them. They didn't do as I did my router and gardens. I'm done right so now there is this: it's called a fog behaviour grid. This fifteen times Each one has a name so like a new behavior, you do. One time is called a green dot behaviour green that its new dot. One time, whereas habits our blue path? Blue, familiar tat means you keep doing it so Each of those drifting types has a name now I used to chair this in keynotes and stuff in the audience would just start snoring. It's not a good model for designing behaviors, it's good for analyzing neighbours, but it's good. We have it working on them. I regret, were in my lab work, two thousand nine. We started writing a guide for each one of the fifteen behaviors, and we finish that in two thousand ten year, then we created this tool called me. If you're wizard, you can still find behaviour was a dog.
Arguments, I could tell us what baby you want to change and here's the guide yeah and it was at that at a time where my lab shifted dramatically away from the previous work. Looking at what we called persuasive technology, it was that exact project like we're not goin back looking at technology, were interested in human behaviors Ryan. These fifteen types in helping people learn how to create any behavior you want, but the Starting point is interesting: what type, because each of those fifteen cells there's a different way to design for each one year now so quitting something's, one thing right, but just looking at a healthy behavior- and I think in your TED talk to you- use this as an example which would just be like overall health right. So is it instead of trying to pursue overall health, which might include. Exercise or weight loss- or I don't know, blood pressure reduction. All these things right.
If you pursue that as a goal. It's nearly impossible, but if you create a swarm of little habits, around this goal that they in turn will lead you to that goal, seeking on almost a scrap that huge top of the Mai, goal in focus more on a little tiny things that would ultimately lead up to that yeah right on it. So the goodness is the way you change behaviour. Does a reliable way to do. If there's a process, there's a system and then tiny habits outline the system, and this is not obvious- it's something we had to discover and test it's like boom now here it is there cept this week, but you do start with first. What's my aspiration right? Some people call it a goal. An aspiration outcome: what is it that I want? The next step is to do what you just said taxes than the water, all the different behaviors that can take me to my aspiration nor outcome where my goal and Europe splore, that in a method that I called magic wandering and it's a fun creative method, we say: ok, if I were
strong relationships with my siblings, then you could come up with a whole bunch of different behaviour. Second, you know you're not committing to any of them. At this point and then later in the process you pick which of those options that you actually want to do where the pick the browsers gonna say so this is really really keep because this technique, requires some honesty with yourself, which I love, which is you say that people aren't going to do behaviors that either a require an incredible amount of sustained motivation, rights, People feel very motivated and December thirty. First, they have gotta gumption on that day out, but over time and workload, nor the stuff you're motivation is gonna, ebb and flow, so yeah exactly so not ideal your Urim and for the bleachers. If you can rely on motivation to create a behavior now, if you're within Europe, military or some way you leave. You go the cross that box
you're, going to be super motivated for that hour, yeah. But human motivation goes up and down yeah and the surprise to me is when you go and look at the academic work studied as this was has not been studied for very long the acknowledgement that motivation fluctuate over I'm just there's not a rich literature on that. In fact, I hadn't been named these shifts, and so one of my book camps and professional training. I was doing we named it. We called it the motivation wave The fact that our motivation goes down doesn't mean were bad, that's human nature, that's how it works. The other think a reality, as your motivation is going down for one it's going up for a different thing and that's how it should be grounded because of your motivated. Do everything all the time that's not bury adapted. So the way circumvent TAT, is design for yourself at the lowest point of motivation, this is why which, like so
They started teaching tiny habits and two thousand eleven. After a year I can my own behaviour and, like all my card, is changed my life I was in a really tough spot. I mean I was somewhat things are going wrong in my life and found this way. What you tweeting your way? Oh my gosh. Remember, but by the way people when you took your way, learn that very sharply area that was really early early twenty days I treaty every day as a potential motivation in hotel fifteen seconds guide completely forgot my surprise that thou, I learn quickly data. If you don't like that yeah, but what everyone you may get on a scale and he would tweet it, and I would assume your your operating theory at that point was This kind of shame myself and using way right or I'll, be accountable to this group of people didn't work. I think this was before I figure things out. This was ignored. Behavior scientist I,
believing all the old stuff worked? Okay, this is before the breakthrough and behavior design a tiny have its it. Okay, if I just do this, if I track it, if I put myself on the hook and public exposure I will then naturally be Shame end to eating deaf related or in the positive spin is that you would have created an artificial motivation yeah Sometimes that works, but something you now that there's just it so hard to create a way to sustain high levels of motivation, so as a behavior scientist studying all the staff and understanding how human nature works in humans work and so on, and then the real breakthrough, I think in my work, not happen in the research laboratory. It was me deciding to teach this Corky thing.
He called tiny habits. Just anybody that wanted to sign up, and I had no idea this would keep going for years and I would add up to be over forty thousand people. What I learned about five thousand people in size a few months in in two thousand Levin. A woman wrote me, and she said, I now see- I've endured a lifetime of self trash doc. Thank you so much bigger, helping me flipped this and embrace. The positive feelings and celebrate we're talking about celebration of those doubts on Wednesday of the five day programme that I was teaching and that I mean I guess I was just so naive or social to happen. I didn't realize that's where everyday people are out where they are defeated discouraged they beat themselves up self trash, talk and so on, and it was that moment that I exactly where I was sitting when I read her email. I refer to her and timing of its color Rhonda, that's not for when they may change the name and
I was just as says a lot about you that you picked Rhonda another to derail you but had interesting is very young. You a came from somewhere and it was just like ok. So this is a Corky little side thing. I was done I to bring this out bigger Russia just keep doing it, doing it in four years. So the fact that it then interactive thanks, the people? Thousands people after that real people in their real lives, with real habits and real struggles. Taught me so much about what really works and what does not work. Then you combine that with their academic rigour, and that is the thing That still so, well, I want to say fortune but also have a huge duty to share jar. Because I have had the opportunity to. I was able to learn these things. Learn this method, that's transformative, and now I'm delighted to shared, but I
of the spy may last year, the snares, what I love about it, and I'm here to help you as a Non Stamford professor, do that is its actually not abstract. So it sounds a little abstract, I think, on the surface, like habits and behaviors and how they differ from resolutions and all the stuff. But what I say is there are actual steps. There are actual concrete action, you take
have a result, stay to farm sure, if you dare. We are supported by square space. Now, what are some things you can do a square space Monica build a web site? That's right! You could turn your cool idea do new website. You could showcase your work, you could blogger, publish content, sell products and services of all kinds, promote your physical or online business or announce an upcoming event or special project. I don't owe wedding up a bar mits VA. Now, as many of you know, we designer pewter full website on square space, its highly functional we sell products on it. We inform our listeners about all the updates they need to know about. We use the beautiful templates that were created by world class designers powerful.
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Have you explained to Monica talk about goal of, or you would say, aspiration of doing more pushups in what you decided to do to create that outcome. Wow eight years ago. I never thought I'd be talking about the great, but so I fifty six. So I was probably getting toward fifty and you know look research to lose muscle mass redundancies, I wanna do strength training every day. Well, what can I do well do pushups and carry out so in tiny habits. What you do is you take whatever? Did you want strength, training and you'd? Make it really really smart, so shops, but not twenty, not ten. By pick two series of retaining the aggregate, that's tiny, then So where does this fit? Naturally, my day went away police this. What can it come after and figured out after a few trying a number of things in it, it's after IP, so really quick. This
key visit, the breakthrough, so he has what's called what can trigger behaviour. So he has this statement. I love this statement and after I blank I will blank so your building on something you already do as opposed to introducing an entirely new way of life. It's like what we already know. The things were gonna do throughout the day, I'm gonna drink, coffee, I'm gonna go p, for, in my case, twenty five plus times a day. I'm gonna go peace. For me, I'm gonna take a couple hundred milligrams and nicotine I'm gonna watch tv, I'm gonna put the kids on what am I know what things I'm predictably gonna do on any yeah. Ok, ok! So so so for me I figured out after I p. I will do to pushups That was it. I got a little bogged down in them, particularly
unlike our you doing them in the bathroom yeah yeah, none of my business. I know it. I know tat. You have been forthcoming on their actions. I am willing to get so I work mostly from home, so half of my body is in the bathroom half of its in the hall prevent my little dog is looking at a right here when I am travelling like an hotel, I'll put towels on the floor when I'm at Stanford. No, I dont do it. I look in the mirror or maybe do squats, but. So mercy and on the mechanics ever do to home now I can do more than two. If I want re almost there all the time I do more than two, but the habit is too and if I do too that's a success and I move on, but next to your early point? This is so important every the you already have real estate, where you can play something after it. So after you start the coffee clockmaker, what new habit would you, after you buckle your seatbelt? What new habit could go there after you walk the door after working, but your back down
add a new habit there, so some you start with the tiny habit. Look around- where does it FED and other times you could just what routines too I have and what new thing can I place just after that, a really good one for that is after I start the shower why do you have it could fit there? It We all do that and we have a few seconds to do something for some people its longer than a few seconds. I have a great to have it that I do about my body some weird aspect of my body? When am I m d hence does Paul ups. He put pull a bar in his about three: does although some people disquiet, but I do have a question because I feel like a lot of people, but are they yours, he too pushups after paying and then you said so when you're at Stanford Year, like no I'm not gonna. Do that right, I feel like a lot of people would just get derailed and sail well
I didn't do it earlier day when I peed at Stanford, and then it was it was all like goes to show. How do you combat The aim in the shower is good cause, you're, always and normally, and why our position that well there's a mindset go and goes against the tradition. So so much of what I am sharing hair is just not what people have heard before part of it is a mindset. There's a mindset to change and part of it is hey when I do intended awesome good for me. Wait a girl keep going and when you don't Would you intended you just let it go then I like nothing about guilt or shame, or I messed up you just let it go move on. He also has he encourages people to celebrate right. I'm awesome yeah. I'm awesome So if you do you pay here and then you pop up to push ups and they got a Moslem, Oh I like, or whatever you name awesome fist pomp little tat. The only thing that
causes a positive emotion than you do that too, we are in the habit- that's what creates there, but the emotion you feel so when your brain associates positive emotion with this behind here the Patriot CUP becomes more automatic, so it's not repetition. It's not number repetitions its the association, and also interesting. I gotta say my knee jerk to all this was like no way I'm cold Turkey guy, I'm extreme, I'm so attic the Unama. No, no! We gotta go ballistic on everything, but then it is its, Ultimately, most those things are completely unsustainable. In my experience, like the nuclear option, can be done for some months for me, but it really can't be done in perpetuity. You now and going, tiny and just in fact, I said in the book- hey people lower the far lower your expectations, which is like Canada upset about were hearing, but the key amendments two key is one- is help here.
Do what you already want to do, and the second is help yourself. Theale successful, feel not me and part of setting yourself up to feel successful is allowing the bar lowering your invitations seated extra costs. I'm a rock star. They must student, but men pretty. Always the last one to their due to push our poor, a glass of water yeah I advise resolved. Some people will go or I'm gonna get you. Let me go to the gym for an hour every other day, whatever Emily. What if you just committed to like ten minutes, just to start there for something to build? It is such a big swing. To like, say, you're gonna do for hours training a week in Europe likely not achieve that and then you'll end up doing nothing. So you know them black and white thinking and under its not very helpful. The affection, like Irae, perfect doing this, and this is why I dont advocate tracking. You know o tracking. If it helps so back to the two. I call the maxim
If it helps you feel successful, do it. But if tat king is gonna, make you feel unsuccessful. What's not right for you, it's not right for you with that particular change accountability. Does it help you a successful or not setting a goal as a lot of people talk about. Does that help you feel successfully? So you can take everything. I think that you ve heard about behaviour behaviour change and those two things. A litmus test is helping. You, What you want to do and as helping you feel successful war Monica Taipei over achieve that's right. What are you kidding? What method lends itself to that personality type this one yet so? Yes, so for sure, where you're energized and you you're used to focusing, I mean, I think, all of us in the room I this right here, but when Innovations high take that entered that you have and focus on. Redesigning your environment now do so
one time behaviour and before that the motivation drops vast in training yourself to do stuff getting the equipment you need. And so on. So then few Good behaviors are super, easy receives build up. You have the equipment. The know how and so on here, and that is the best invest. Many other motivation peak like when the motivation wave goes up, don't go out and run for five hours that doesn't then have arranging and restore the next day right. Take that I'm and put in the work you need to create a sustainable system? Exactly? I think I'll find the exact quotas head on the fact that I think even king had some Tipp about this for reading, as people like I don't have time and at which I died so guilty of He has something about, don't it. Will you have a half hour to read a few of five minutes? Take that five minutes and reading through pages is better than waiting to
red with every hours and then that's how you actually finnish outlook is two pages at over the bar, so in my own life. When someone I wanted to do a lot of reading, all I had to do was opened the box I now and then I had a in their smiley face. That was all happy. That was why the help me you're successful in so opened the book, and I would usually read more. Just a sentence or two, but the habit was just about right. Yeah at one time had a goal or a rule which was just are yet put on your work out gear ledges for now, and then you can lounge about if you want, but most times once a year was on I'm lying on the floor and then I'll get into it now no state this or maybe you do, and I just knew enough research, but, as I was thinking about all this, I cannot but imagine that the Nirvana for all this would be summoned.
Illustrated the greatest example this I wish I could credit them, but they were trying to explain like the subconscious versus the conscious. In that the example they gave was when you're operate a car on the highway miles an hour. It's actually very complicated task? It takes people years to get good at that and often accidents, but you who are in that car and everything, that's happening so conscious, like you're, just your turning the wheel when you need to your accelerating you're breaking your signalling, but you are your conscious brain is thinking about. God knows what, like you know, inventing SAM those wings but your car, His brain is so busy thinking of the things that you are mostly completely unconscious of what you're doing operate the vehicle, and I would imagine that these habits best version of when I would be like you just do them and you're not even aware of them. Now that you have used to describe this cuz, a lot of people said and easy. What are the tiny habits you use to lose weight or be more productive or whatever? And it's like
become so seamless in my life, tat its I could card and pull them out, but they don't feel like things I created, I used to be the present the potter club at Stanford, I just did and knowledge acknowledges that someone your hand building with clay, and you want to add to a pot. You take a peace plan, you, and you rub it in and eventually the seams go away and its indistinguishable from the rest of the vase and that's how it feels when these habitats is so part of your life. We'll get you actually created as a habit. It's just what you do, and so you can do many of these and it doesn't feel like I'm sustaining two hundred habit. It they just become part of your life. What are you ready? I just kind of fades away in the background:
yeah. You changed yours or regulation. He was tweeting his way not ideal went from. I want to say, like one eighty two to one hour at the towers: ISIS the fact that people like it's his twitter if he can analyze where people I meet him only asked her to satirizes davers, I'm not I'm gonna go look that that's it. That's a bad idea. People do not do that, but I know that you ve heard and again you. As you just said you probably they ve been filed into the white noise of your brain. But what are some of the things that you change your approach? You took a tiny habits approach, and now you ve reached the weight that you like doesn't matter. Would anyone else thinks of its one? You, like so Woody what was the swarm of bees that surrounded that a big part of it was dialing in what foods were healthy from me and hesitate to say whether those are expelled and take that as a prescription. I think right ever for different people yeah, but
only monitors bus vessel cookies and came rushing relating signing on that I'll get some that I think are applicable to everybody had to help of filling up water glass and putting it on my work: dusk, not drinking water, just putting it there. And there certain supplements that I think are good for me, I had a habit of putting them on a dish and putting into my worked ass when I travel, I had the habit of packing my travel, cuz I can't rely. What's gonna be the plainer I got in the hotel last night it two in the morning and so there food. Their rang ambering knots and I bring boiled eggs in some vegetables ready to go and so on. So it's just figuring out. I think the foods that work for You have been making it really easy on windows in his habits and to really quick. What is your habit or your routine to prepare your food? Is that happen on the same day every week. Does it happen in preparation for a trip, while the depends both
On a day to day basis my partner loves, cooking and most times will be. I got along to get a partner who will not? Let me in the kitchen very often I did a fixed lunch once a while, but he fixed his breakfast. We died in the breakfast, exactly what it is, and so he fixes the brick as and but the fridge is designed in a way once a week. We call it super fridge where everything in there is on our game pie. There's nothing in the fridge that off limits at any time so anytime. I can open the fridge it whatever I want as much as I want such feeling right and then for a launch. Often I gotta do my homeland, of course, which will be fresh greens sardines. Nor am I roused me, am I find it like sardines? I kind of love em, then, for
important then I'll bring something in like mustard hers, ass, a lantern pesto or something like that, which I knows all my game plan and then there's something I go back and forth on my cheese cheese wasn't than it is in its not yeah. I know it's bad for me. Just my own body, not everyone else's, but for mine ya, get tons of lamb, all kinds of disturbing things from dairy, and then I got Before long enough, that I remember no, I don't think that did me all that stuff and then I go back for a long time yet like they re, learn lessons over and over again that's kind of my hobby, but I think one of the most helpful things people can do in this domain and if the aspiration is lose weight stop and pause that is that really what you're going after all humorist up is clarified? Is it really weight loss or is it more vigour, energy or whatever, and so the first
maybe you're designers, get clearing your aspiration. That might mean revising it. Yes, ok great, so this is the getting honest with yourself partner, so you say that behaviour needs to have impact is to be a behavior. You can do it has to be a behavior. You actually want to yeah. So this is all crazy key, so the exam, I think of all the time as I get in debates with a couple different friends, and who have expressed goals of they want to family him. I will say to them quite often, either you don't really want a family. I mean can't get the apart. Ok. I got right, but Behavior is demonstrating the opposite pursue and I will say to them: should feel no obligation to want a family? It's fine! If you dont want to fail. If just in theory want a family, we have to
figure out like do you really cuz? If you really want one of these behaviors are antithetical to that, so you just got to be honest about one or the other. In my opinion, it's like a you're free to live out. Fuck you want pursue. Would everyone so great with it? But if you're telling me you have, go on. I'm your friend I feel obligated point out these are this actually take to get to that goal- and this is a circular debate that happens quite often, but I dont think people are dry. Fully honest about what they actually want? They want some things in theory, maybe in maintaining habits the way break it down. As wants versus sheds light, I should have a family because my parents want grandkids and dedicated out. Somehow I just should the shirts are very hard to turn into habits and they dont reliably become habit. The watts it's what you focus that's why that first statement help yourself. What you already you want to do, and if it's not that
do the shirts. Now, what about the it's hard, sometimes differentiate, Shouldn? Why, as you think you want that, because you ve been in grain to I like you, share its on this ain't. A continuum is want and need like we are. We mean this is like many want bad, but what about the person it's driving by the way? This? If you about her this it when I was twenty seven in just leaving seven Levin to have my second set of hot dogs that I will get their animals every day hung over and then making plans to get fucked up soon. I would or what, if you don't want anything that is unhealthy, the spectrum or the productive spectrum at them. Some people must be sitting with themselves going, there's nothing. I want that is healthy, well, but there's other domains. So ok tardiness creativity, relationships
Alright, there's other areas in the day even of your party, and will you want relationships? You wanna come a more moderate ask about take music sites like a huge fan, so in tiny habits I only proscribe one habit and everything else is about a system to do any habit you want, if I were pressed to prescribe. Other habits could be like for my to tell me what habits have wander, but if I were pressed I would say, credit habit of playing a musical instrument daily or one. I think that there are so many reasons and what's worked really well for people guitar display three courts on the guitar. That's all some find where that fits in your day play those three chords and if you want to do more, do more men if you dont want to don't I'm set aside celebrate my master might not happen and some why? Why but the one that you think is by the way. Moniker you some Rosa. I am I gonna like airborne right. What are you I know three?
it could be piano. Incubator Killilea can be good at heart. It could be recorded wait. I love and everyone hates, but I love it. You'll be single and pick that no one's living with someone had blown on was. How do I talk about this a brazen, the suppressing yourself fantasy that maybe you'd perform for somebody some day. I there just lots of things. I had a voice, disability growing we did and in the the version of my book, I record, the special proffers, where I talked about that disability, because it was not Aaron TED. I would never at my own book. Ok, I had addition, for it sure, and I tried to negotiate like I'm gonna, be the narrative, went back and forth violent agents in Fiji. The not gonna can't you. Mary with because their investing the book can kind of
but quickly ask it what was it a physiological? Thank you give em a vulgar cord issue worthy of a speech issue. I talk like that this until I was eighteen? Oh no, no! I had no lower register. We call that in academia many miles Idas yet and that's what I went out on a car act was painful. I saw how high school having a vote. Like this? I was fun bullied and so on, and so, as I was narrating the bark and I'm getting getting, The end of it is last day I thought I might write a preface just for this just for this, it doesn't really in print versions, dining out, and so I told the story- and I wrote it up it is, I wrote it up I will now read it to me, and I said: ok, I'm gonna be narrating. This arm recording. But let me read it to you to make sure of works
and ass I started reading, I broke down a sort of crying and, as I call them, I gather myself and three times I couldn't get, and he was also crying and hidden I heard a lot of this year and how hard it was and I wanted to share this because here was the straw. Well. I had that I felt like I had no control over dear control, I can faster puberty and change my voice and all of that, and then how he felt so ashamed and embarrassed and how that baggage carried with me. Even now my voices weird, but then when it came to the opting to narrate my book. Then I wanted even more younger and then it was like. No, you cannot dishes, so it says it in the grim and I can addition, but there's no guarantee so taking all that bag it and all that this is would be a major victory for me. I went into any habits mode and for a year I would go
to a room all by myself of clothes. The door and record and narrate nereids, I used all the stuff. I knew about habits and practice it over the years to get better and better better listen. I did and then the day for the addition fast forward. I got it and I was able to narrate my own book, which now should victory. It's obviously bigger than that to you. I have to imagine your voice, coupled with the fact that you're, probably hiding the fact that you're gay at that age- and I didn't know him in so you try already a ride, signals they you're gay and this masculinity dissuade try yeah, salute and then their these moments. I tell a story in the breakfast, but when I didn't tell so end of the year the girls Club chooses. You know the guy that, like the best they pick me so I got get this award in front of the entire high school. In Fresno no rest now and the football there's like
I gotta get nobody protects, you know you go get their word, you sit down and all combined. You no sword like ok,. I'm trying to be involved in student government. I didn't run for the student body president because I would have to speak every week, so I can't do that around four vice, so it was always there was real limited. Yeah, but I wanted to share than in the preface tell people to like, then, in a spot where I felt helpless and I felt ashamed and I felt person It is for something I had no control over right, and so I get it but then also you can take these challenges, you can use what's in this book to achieve, something that you never thought would be possible here. They can become your superpowers and quite often they do and that
but I do now. I teach and I love speaking still awed voice and it gets weak, but I've embraced it like that's the Corky Problematical. Breaks and where it weighs sounds funny, but it's who I am its distinctive, which is good, and so now I own it rather than feel bad about it, but it was a real problem. But what is so often that the benefit of sharing your quotes for a moment or two things were embarrassed about the benefit of it is you created. Story in nor had that this is the worst thing ever and then so shameful and so embarrassing? In so often, I'm fact, I've never seen a go. The other way. You share that with a group of people, A person in the room don't as always, I oh yeah, I totally I get that too that feels normal. This is the human condition like that, it's so empowering to bring it out into the light. I think- and I think my sense that morning when I woke up was eyes, I just wanted so right now yes, my life is great
out in so many things live, have time in mowing teach when I was born in its great, but people might see that and think. Well, you just super like while I am lucky, but I wanted to share that. Everybody has struggles and everybody has problems nobody's perfect, and I wanted people to understand that part of me yeah. So they don't. You see this perfect picture has often that's all people see they don't see all the failures, all the mistakes, all the twists and turns all the emotional baggage, the best What about you is that you tweeted your weight every morning you gang awake, I mean that's one thing that people go. Oh yeah, that's probably exactly what would happen to me as a human party or store, but also its showing. That lack is tied to behaviour. Now that you don't just get lucky that you're doing things that put you in the position to have opportunity. Luck doesn't just fall. I knew well- and You can make these steps forward a hired you can you can design for this chance?
I'm not in the guesswork way. There's man. It's way easier than people. Think and it's not hard to get started is not hard to maintain. The hard thing is having that leap of I guess I'll, say faith, that this is what the big outcomes of near, doesn't feel pain for nothing. We have this paradigm in their head, whereas like no, no pain, no gaining likened to pushups. After I p, I guess and even worth issue pleasure, I saw your first point. It one thing that you really knew already set up. I just want to really drill into it, for folks is that specificity is everything here, so about ten years ago. I recognise Ivan credible road rage. She like out of the car at stop lights once every couple months unit, just terrible my wife hates it. Everyone feels dangerous, I'm not proud of it. I get an adrenal dom it's it's not healthy, all these things, so I want to see
two new year's eve in a row I set as a gold, no more road, re, tripe and idea, not succeed, those two years and then so the third year I said just one rule- but you cannot get out your car things raymie yell fuck. You knew everything you are no longer allowed to exit the vehicle in and that was achievable right. So I did a year of that and then the next year was no more hand signals to people's anymore flipping people off. No, nothing right, that worked and then the final thing was. I can't use my horn unless literally sums gonna hit me once it. Look it up into all these components that made this one huge characteristic, yes, of road rage within that road users, but nine things I did that I would say, fell into the road rage,
then diagram in in one by one. Once I parts them out, I was able to approach than they weren't so big to your point. Don't make your goals so enormous that they can't be achieved shares what you did exactly right it from the tiny habits, behaviour design perspective. So in the book I draw this. Cloud, which is your aspiration, put it in the cloud you can't designed for this abstracting directly. But then around the cloud you put specific behalf is not normally you do this for creating habits I pray you can also do for untangling. So inside is like stop or reduce road rage, that's an abstraction. What you did exactly writers, you broke it down into specific behaviors and you started angling. It behaviour by behaviour the rather than just obsessing or trying to motivate yourself towards this abstract, tangle yeah, uh behaviour. So many habits. I talk about untangling, unwanted habits, not breaking them you
specified what those tangles were at least in your mind, but there is a graphic away to do it in a step by step process, and then you picked the one that was the easy to do ya the iciest. You got that when done and you into the next one and the next one is exactly right now. My practice on that and I about this work for you or anybody else, but when I get frustrated and a situation or somebody on line, I use it and this technique, it's called a pearl habit. You take something negative to create a positive habit from like a pearl crate beauty from an irritation. So in that case, what we say in my mind I say, everyone is doing the best they can. No one tries to screw up. I say that the hard backward as a hard on so you take something negative in this section in tiny habits and we're can expand on this. Six people really resonated, but the idea of pearl habits get you take thing negative that you cannot control, maybe something you do
who were somebody out and then you Is that a prompt you so that becomes a thing after somebody annoys me. I will say something positive so that negative thing that irritation becomes this beautiful thing. I learned at least for me. It gives me empathy at least a moment of empathy and understanding and a coms me down at least stops yeah, just predators, paws on the escalation of the anger, whenever you're feeling now what happens- and this happens with other habits that you deliberately form it will then, sir happening and other aspects of your life even without you know we're going back to the item. Activity were just autopilot, and when you're going long, something just kind rotating that feeling of empathy will crop up just like the other tiny habit of meditating meditation will pop up
other parts of your life when you need it. This is part of the beauty of tiny gets big because it multiplies it finds other places in your life where pops up, even without you designing for near, but you gotta, start wired in that habit nailed and then it grows like a plant that propagating other so called right, thanks. I love after eyes black eye blank stating for more arm chair, if you dare, we are supported by perfect snacks Monica you and I are directed to these lava
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two wildfires! What's imagine this above cat mom? That's now Jim for food in the newly escape and she goes to ravine in the hills of Sonoma County and finds a mouse bell. Something's gonna happen in her brain to make that more automatic. Now Does she have an emotional added but lest they should get some Sarah toning down brighter than a kind of rewards and only happens in them requires her brain to make that more likely in the future. So it's that feeling of success that then changes the bobcat moms. Have it near and assist, something that works for us when we do a behavior and feel successful man again Thirty days later, your brain has associate that behaviour without feeling up and that's what the Calibration thing in tiny habits is about not somebody who gets goofy. Your in your emotion in order to win the habit, and I think that's why you're
adaptive when you get good at celebrating, you also get good at welcoming positive emotions and I'll give an example from this morning. So this is what you have to look forward to this morning, I'm getting ready to come here and I was excited and and frank. Shall I be the area you ve heard? Some of the others are not usually I dont, where deodorant can am always swimming or amend what I'm in the water twice a day, I'm not a guy that sweats allow whatever so, but I'm coming here like this is big time playing upon the other side, poem idea under it and it crumble, and it falls on the counter. Now. My right, action was just pick a little about put her on, way to go beach. I believe that it could have been my gosh, I packed lousy, low quality, so my the action that moment. Tenure. To go before I started. Tiny habits would have been like one at negativity, but instead of the immediate reaction was
for me. I made at work, let's move on, and that's happened in other parts of my life where that happen or that reaction, the positive reaction, rather than the negative reaction, and that is what the subtitle Lisbon the small changes to change everything. It's that it's not two hundred habits that processing the world. I don T, I dont think in general people give enough credit to this. That your experience on planet earth is so often perception is right, lands you're looking through yet as- and this goes to the one habit that I suggest there's only one that I prescribe in its the Maui habit. I give a TED talk. Why name without? But it's basically is, after my feet I the floor in the morning you're getting out of bad. You say it's going to be a great day, seven words, and it's for that very reason that your talk about taxicab then helps process your morning differently, which means your reacting to set backs, are
opportunities differently. Your trajectory France, and so on till I feel a hundred per cent confident and said doing that want to everybody? Well and I'll say what people also aren't always aware of is that we have an uncanny ability to confirm our own theories right information will ya confirmation by us. If you think the world is against you, you or thousand percent seat to attend, I'm in the day, but that is confirmed it just the nature of us. We want to confirm our belief so If you can really convince yourself today a great day, then The only see proof of that right to justice. Your brain that and you even can be sceptical about down. I mean there are frankly warrants I've done this for eight years now, probably and their mornings Herzog s desk hard, I'm afraid faced, the stair are you're, just not eager, I still say it, but I say it. I say at Austin: it's going to be a great day,
somehow Larry I'm real about it, but that works too. Do we just interviewed Gerard Collins? He even further that, with the help of grant which is, he disaster when the weak rights are for seven days have to end in apposite Anna better than they start and better than they start. I love that yeah yeah and so like again to your point and making it flexible enough that it actually is a system you create that plays on your strengthen. In probably, you know your weaknesses, you dont pursue that that for him He figured out a way that, ultimately, it's a positive experience and that's right. I must go back to the example. Someone who doesn't want to change had the eater exercise or whatever- and I said, relationship steadiness creativity, music file, your strength and the elderly yeah inversely, gas or where you want to change, You want to change, and often it's where your strong,
Mistake is to go to your very weak as point: that's like the middle loved, the not yeah build on those and the guy It's here is habit for me, is a skill at a set of skills. Man. You can learn those skills on any type of habit. So why not learn those on habits that you want and are in your will, those regulars twenty six different skills of habit, formation that I and pack and tiny habits, and it just like if your do learn to play musical instrument, don't start with hard songs. One could habits, don't start with the hardest habit and the pigs. Did you like just pick habits that you like. So if you take what you know about upgrading skills, are then competency and then ship that over two habits, it maps and very very closely. For example, often its helpful to have a coat lying hurting to do probably out act or play musical instrument and same thing with habits in others, tiny habits, coaches or have a guide like a book. Rather
and just guessing you so one of the nice wonderful parallels in and they think it It comes later in the Balkan. I dont think it's quite dawned on people their debts, information, is of skill, and we could set like a merit. Badge system was, I care, the twenty six skills boom boom boom them. You're gonna learn on the skills and in this way, working habits where you're strong. Then you take those skills and apply it where are weaker or we have more emotional baggage ie. Just like you were, like here's, a really hard peace I have to play. Let me work my skills on pieces- I love- and now I'm going play to this reply to this. One yeah, you increase Europe reality and increase your motivation and then, from another perspective, you might call itself advocacy of the way I look at any behaviour, as is motivation ability, prompt those young creature, motivation and you increase mobility than the only thing you're lacking is the prompt, and then
how do you mind yourself so there's it's really nice upward spiral that can happen at start. Where you want to start a me, we have different identities. We were different hats at different times and as an actor, you totally know that by even as everyday people at a certain point, I'm a teacher certain point, I'm a recent slab direct or another point. I'm a brother and so these identities and we shift among the identity is now entirely happy what I saw early in my data is these tiny changes, people would make would have ripple effects and within five days, well over. Eighty percent of people would do other habits and about twenty percent, reporting, they made a big change in their life and as like. What's going on here I understand that result. I just saw weaker a week in my data like really quickly about fifty people are making this big league. And
I added I sort of reading the emails carefully. That's how I catch people's personally through email, and what I saw was a hint. It was identity. So I started asking and identity question. That's like film, the blank I know after tiny habit. I now see I'm the kind of person who I'm the kind of person who, and they could say anything they wide then so that is in quantitative and qualitative. It being this thousands of those? Why I saw was people say I now send the kind of person who can change. I now send the kind of person who can stick to something. I now see that I'm the kind of person who can that So the idea is shifting forms like I'm the kind of person who can't change I'm the kind of person who drops the bar, but my seeing evidence not by one video, a robber they saw evidence had they did start water flushing amount to doing pushups, opening the bark they saw that they were changing, which there,
gave them a new identity or stronger. I didn't do that. They can change by what's a average you everyone should have. Is the ability to change a me know if ever that was a equality to have a good time. On planet earth. It's now so we're doing another. Ten episode podcast about relationships and dating me in this that I heard about them. Tat is exactly that because at the end of each episode we get a challenge, an assignment to complete before the next episode. Linking these habits, basically these bad habits and having, working these patterns, and now we're about half way through and both of us are like well its work. It meant how Lydia shifting of the add this it's from I'm the guy, a person who am I a person who doesn't like people who are there, sir, I'm the kind of person whose work a hologram, the kind of person who chooses this its staff
ring to change based on these like little challenges these behaviors set of ship, it's so fascinating, okay. So this is what I've heard from people for years- and this is what kept propelling me to teach tiny have. I didn't know where this: going. I just note, was helping people here, and it is of course I had to keep going. I mean, even on vacations and family reunions, I'm coaching, but there is this thing that happened yet so many people are sceptical about. How would you explain it? Well, I think it's delete. Today I was getting on the car and I saw someone who was at physically attractive HU, I normally that is shut off, and I'm sort of like been in this pattern of I'm the kind of person who's not attracted to the physical. Only I said a day, and I said
this person and animals like oh he's, attractive, icing on hand ogier he was, but I saw him and I was like oh and I mean this is so weird and to say out loud. But I also said I'm the kind of person people dont like just seeing me on face value, and then today I was like people like oh yeah, yeah yeah, when you only on their use, is a sound using hair. All around you boy will soon embrace the better. It's the behaviour that shifted the mentality. It wasn't just like us talking about it. It was these little challenges. Making yourself break these little had an essential, so surprising, its values. Nice yeah, you wrote the book persuasive technology, using computers to change. What we think in do in Europe Amber where a lot of the people that turned out to be designers about that are hugely addictive. I would say
What I'm wondering is, do you see yourself moving away from that? It sounds like you do it? Can you even stated it earlier you're, like kind of maybe getting away from that and getting more just the human yeah so yeah I wrote the book persuasive. Agenda, two thousand to write. It was based on a series of experiments. I dead as a doctoral, RO, basically to child the chinese influence principles to see if computers could use this as a laboratory experiments and it's like oh yeah, they work. Flattery, works from computers, teammates works from computers and so and personalities, and things like that. So published that and in the book I give a warning like hey people. This is coming, whether we like it or not, we have here is the ethics of it. Here is what we need to do and My dissertation, I give ten pages of here how we can use it in a positive way, and I draw our the story board of a woman named Sue. I was
delighted. My committee, which included some bardo, fills embargo. Terry Winograd Click, NASS, Environed, Reeves, train team. They allowed me to draw him by dissertation. Could I wanted to show here's the future vision and so nothing Palatine plus I helped system that, basically what I hears a device, it would encourage EU virtual characters dedicated to help this person be healthier. So, certainly persuasive technology publishing that I was hoping at the time that people dream and policy makers would start making policy around it. Sure crickets reopening really cared about that book. At that time, yeah there Well, it's interesting because we all want. I should say we are many of us. Are using these apps, their pleasurable our using them so nods really upset with the technology while it's happening to them because it's been designed to be pleasurable. You know
and I was just wondering: do you think that These technologies should have the same morning that cigarettes would have, or some of them the medicine that you get which is like. This is an addictive thing, John absence. Some of them- absolutely we all say, addicted to the mobile phone. I dont like that because it's not the phone experiences we have through this device. Ok greater! This is some of the push back. I've had returned, listen other people like known, don't just call d, the mobile phone, let's get specific as if we can shyness- bought light, a name it accurately. Then we can take steps to deal with it all again. It's kind of an lockstep, a tiny habits which is don't try to sum up. This global fling granular has weaken grain by Greece, probably alter something yeah and and certainly for certain people certain, experiences on the phone with its gaming or some types of social networking is a problem in their lives. And it was then
two thousand sex. Why did a formal testimony to a subcommittee? see saying hey and I couldn't go a decent person, so I recorded as videos awful my head is huge, my pet ashamed and- and I unlikely. At that very moment, I was recording videos teaching the classic Stamford that had my Krieger. The later cofounded wants and Tristan Harris who went on to do in time was spent all there are some things that are recorded. This video link here, policymakers here, the three we should be worried about and do things about, and I got break, it saw the injury areas number one, called persuasion profiling, our guys had coming Sir gathering earlier right now and they're gonna use it to explore our vulnerabilities and this information will be bought and sold. Just like a credit report and I realising since two thousand,
exchanges Tufty election. I watch the video again and I do I say it's gonna be used in elections. I got them they're back next. I talked about video game that assumptions will be built into video games. That will convey a worldview. That's not entirely accurate because you get involved in this world and the way the cause and effect relationship work can be modeled in the video game and people to play at a lot will then take them. Cause and effect relationship into the real world. Some rise very subtle way of not just persuasion, Rewire. Your cause and effect relationship in your brain and then the third way? videos are gonna, be manipulated. That won't be true, but we're gonna not be able to believe right, now we call those deep fakes, but back then there was not a rise of those are the three things I was highlighting and again I thought policy, call me or get in touch, not thing and candid discouraging.
Immediate theory on that is that it is the ego it's that none of us really think were that persuadable. I think we all think like we know true north in we stick to it and we not like to acknowledge that were highly persuadable. I think you're right, as you know, in the way we described in my lab. So we did a lot of work about the ethics of this and what the implications were and and the simple way Are we sitting ducks or are we robust? Are we sitting ducks and completely vulnerable, and that would be a debate, Have my students have and we'll talk about it and there's not a clear answer now there are the thinkers out there? That will have a clear, strong answer on that and the practical implications. Way, I see it from my perspective. I'd summarised in just a few words, which might be too simplistic, but if people believe what they want to right right right, my right hand, if you just you, might resists up adjust,
recognise the reality that everybody in you believe what you want to believe. Your People on the other side of the political spectrum are believing what they want to believe. We all work, but the it also if we look at behavior change it also means that information alone does not change our behaviour and ride out one of the reasons and that one of the things that I highlight and call out in an apartment for blame themselves. If they can't change what they need to understand it. Maybe you saw data and statistics in information, but in for alone does not change behaviour in part because we believe what we want. The bulk of the very best examples I have several friends who read the fountain. Scripts with the Ukraine President, we're looking at the same information, I'm getting one thing, they're, getting the polar opposite thing and they are not lying to me. I recognise their truthful people and hopefully there looking at me going, I'm truthful do so, while
what an impasse to have the same info and have such dramatically different experiences with it. I I it. Well I'm here about right. Now, more than ever, we need an intervention to help. People feel positive and optimistic and deal the fear- and I don't see the word depression, feeling bad and self trash Talkin whatever and my hypothesis, our hope is that through tiny habit some people think they can change. It will build hope, yeah, which will counteract the fear- and I think with I hope this is where I'm going out on a limb. You are then open to more possibilities and looking at the world into four, I think fear shut you down there. You see it unlimited, where I could not agree with the more. I think some of the solutions that get thrown- There are so down river. There so passed us breeding. That document having different conclusions, and they don't start with why any of us have an opinion to begin with. Like yes, I think starting much for
Europe River can have better results, and so my aspiration, I mean the timing of the book. Yet people ask me to bring it out years ago on. The reasons I didn't in here now, but now more than ever. If this can help bring hope to people's lives and then help us opener, my two other perspectives, yes, terrible divide that works, Senor and I'm hoping it can have. Some role in helping people have more empathy, in perspective and understanding and dialogue with each other, the axe hands well doktor, be J for, what a black so much more, leaving your aid and to come talk to us in the attic down the construction site. What a delight and thank you thank you for an unearthing, not about my background, calculating my weight birthday, but us superfine to talk about this in this format, and thank you for giving.
Give me another guess permission to does really share in a detailed volume. What kind of way well look we We said we want to go to college will retire. So if we ve happened, this whole fucking systematically factors are coming to a ringing herself ass. We took tiny, tiny, little steps and tied habits. Another professors are coming here. So thank you so much and I look forward all the work you do in the future. Think some and now my favorite part of the show the fact check, with my soul, made Monica bad men before we start its march to new month. It is and we ve turned over a new page on the calendar of men and it is why mackerel m he's looking very very fit what a specimen march is gonna, be it. Good month closure, your penis gone. I says, since we met last mirror I saw a neurologist right and
He said that if you are an adult and you of more than one seizure, they consider it apple at sea. You didn't, I do your there. I didn't like to hear that which is Iraq, because I've spent so much time feeling like. I am everything and then what He tells me there is something wrong. I really thought that like others, I dont have epilepsy, and I dont think I haven't ta by doesn't matter. If I have to, I don't have it. I have to be treated as if I do here was like eve. Had two's the chances of you having another are pretty high, so you need to take this medication to five years minimally issue. What would the side effects of this medicine other than your kind of dragoons scraggy mess.
Foggy ness, be J found. You know tat. I am extra tired on. I just general, like out of that kind of Kandahar deferred, Ok is but it's getting better. He said there is an adjustment period, so that's probably what's happening and it is slowly getting better. So I am inclined to believe him that that the case. It's kind of a lot the process, I can feel some old anxieties, symptoms sold wings. I'm can feel some of that cropping up right. I haven't found, though, that you ve been em like I've been around you the whole times, and you got back in a day. Ten days on my that agenda, me so very stimulating talk to debate whether here. Thank you. Stan said at the hospital. Maybe your dad
de pays dues animal origin to really funny anyway, the EP. So that's the update, for that and taken this medication now and you hate living in her answers are going up, I'm leaving the house still its grey derived Alai? No, I'm not lying! Ok! You hate that I live there. I love that you live there. We ve been trying to get you to live there for the last three year now. So, when you talk about a seizure, we were sharing. What were you dont know is, and we found out, you were a seizure, cheering really going our filing gonna get her daughter to move home Oh, it's good. I'm starting to feel like I'm wearing out my welcome what what on earth could make you feel that way. I don't know I just do you have such a busy brain part of your superpower with out of my seizure was the other side of the sword, though, is that what on earth
all the signals were sending is were so excited to happen here, you're doing well, then, what do you think? How do you think you're wearing out your while I just there pulling in the house, which makes me so happy? Is not my man, hey I've been wanting to do for a long long time sets the ultimate sign of comfort and relaxation and trust in foundational friendship. Agree, but I am afraid you baby steps just like region fog, tiny habit, tiny habits. I do feel a little bit which I think will go away and I dont actually know if it's because of anything in all of its because the medication or why it, but I kind of feed like a little just. Like mad about life, yeah yeah, yeah waiting.
Didn't depression and anxiety is a symptom of this medications. What happened, sort of monitoring that a little bit but is also so hard telling, of course, am anxious. I just had a seizure yeah your mood use listening compassionate, It can do that there's a part of me. It's like we should be up your exercise to combat that site fact I need to I'm also scared of exercise. You are a little. They say that it was dangerous now, but this Ten city, why doesn't have to be an intense work out? you did run it like five and a half miles an hour you distraught along for a few miles. I shared, I just feel a little bit, best about doing, exerting yourselves yeah, that's fair, but I need do need. Do I didn't it the placing of one thing you're on as it is at present than we needed
yeah work extra hard in the other direction. I would write doubly hard to do right now, giving your feeling of blah listen! I wonder what is worked out when I feel blah that's all you gotta do I mean now but somehow I was the most ok, so be I was incorporating some tiny habit: autonomy. One was after I turn on the shower. Oh I'm gonna do my stretch out. Strive stretch and supposed to do actually abundance both to do one is one that You have shown me about our send my friend his P2P, the one that took me seriously about the paying yeah. She gave me a whole bunch of stretches a long time ago from Baxter.
But one stretch I do. Was it every day. Is you go into a doorway and you put your hands on base where the sides of the door opened the door and put your hands on the side and then you'd, just kind of lean through Ok, see your stretching your pack tor muscle azure and your shrugging his shoulders yeah answer. Suppose you do that every day, nine don't ochre now, but I'm trying to make that a habits or after a turn on the shower. That's a good idea, those ones real, pretty good. Don't you think if I was you, pity how ok your big books care. So I would think that you need to do a lot of back strength, in the actual in general, a heart, a pole. Those shows back as you have this enormous force point them forward. That's part of it. That is part of what I have to do, that same, went when Allison told you do that stretch. Did she tell you why she wants you to that stretch? Did she mentioned your boobs.
All of my other pity friend Gina, who actually told me to know my guy. I actually do of all the professions in the world. I know the most p, tease, that's Intro Eve. I would be even more than act why? Why me that's a close call, but I Do I know so many, but so interesting. None of them are Mds, which obviously I need Well sure, to have a personal doktor topple, I you know when I keep forgetting to our example, my update. He me to Know- and I keep forgetting ok, so I'm very, very tight up in the shoulders and back and all that step in a lot of it. Boobs yeah, very heavy yeah, Chapter. Thirty percent, your body weight is your boobs, probably thirty, Tat seems extreme your boy, seventy pounds in about thirty PA oh boy, that's why so much low back problem so about
thirty pounds. A dog tugging on my hip lectures the very common problem. Version. So I want to do though stretches upper drawn. The shower. Are you gonna do Amy? I need destroyed more to maybe maybe I'll the two, while the return on the shower the problem I will be honest at your house. Thou water goes quick, you better believe it does. You don't have time to do that strike. You gonna, get him a shower immediately. Others, oh time, there's no time for extra anything in there. You, God just clean quickly and I've never washed. My hair, what you mean you wash never shower until recently. Now now Even there are eight days and wash your how I washed it at my house when I went home online, the fur day lost again. When I went I stopped by my house, so I haven't wash my hair at your house because I don't think, there's
only meantime because it gets cold what he meant, it gets cold. It gets cold yeah, I only it should I never get close. It gets a tangle of our water heater endlessly warm its endlessly warm in my shower Gosh! What's going on, I don't know it's been getting called back, but it's kind of perfect, as I tend to linger in the shower. While we go and airline to daily and there would you do just think I just like to like feel the hot water leave her kind of a long long time, and I like it to be put scalding, could somehow to my mother, shake scalding near I can't I can't do it. You can now ok, so I will say one day you as about that, and I did showering your shower because I was wondering if it was gonna stay hot longer, yeah, baby,
you guys have yours set. You have like a knob that sets the temperature separate from the knob. Like turns at odd, you there's a thermostat, well yeah and I was kind of afraid to adjust that oh cause. I figured you had said something you know, and I wish you she cranks a nice idea. That's got to know because it was cold for me all guy. Maybe I will definitely blamed Kristen for that now it is your nerves, my fall loves it. She loves. It ha, I think, is bad for your skin. I love it skin dry. Nobody opens up your words like a steam wow guy guy. We gotta get those ports open as well anyway, I'm really gravely than letting me stay. We of having you it's really nice I hope you will your house, like that you're hope your stay day for a while
How much longer do you think I should stay for real, like magic, please rigging. I guess I owe you stay with us and to move on to your new house personally awry but- when are you out of the woods, were the neurologist. He didn't say the and ask him why he does it? Isn't it I mean I've been having. Obviously on this medicine, you're not gonna, have a seizure. That's what I think. So probably you could stay at home and in time, but I don't want you do so. Don't don't do that? Guy about us wait safer and look up among us. That's boasted drive for a month. That would be the hardest thing for me, issue marm to Accept- and I don't even like driving and is har, because I bet you me driving while having a seizure is still timbers harder than your average driver. How dare tell people what happened? What happened? Although read the front of my car coming to get here
I read your nine foul I now I now are still hard. It's so hard. Sorry, Elsa, big episode the night before with the Lincoln Lasting, work on buses, Maso really excited the Lincoln Idle, normally drive it all the way up there. I felt very cool all day, long and love that car be bore. Complimented me great great gray, driving home go in nineteen, o aflame fuck and break caliber ripped off shredded, though tire broke the ram. I got what a disaster had to take a flat, but I was eggs of speed. Normally, I'm off work, I'm rap for the season. Let's party with our us, like a sea sex, you guys want some Fuckin tv, all caps and, and then I'm sitting at a mobile gas station win for a guy in a flat bedrock for about an hour. Everything I had my negative whereby truck there is a lot to be grateful for, but still inconvenient anyway, then, the next day I scrape the front of my station. I was very bombed, but I just I just I can't I have to have higher standards in let some material object moonlight
sense of well me, you didn't! You did a good job. What is more. This is actually not the car. It's the disappointment that I missed the high. The info, mobility, yeah! That's what is its the identity to you, gotta I make that your LEO Caraway always ok, be J so. First of all, he said q, he a couple days He sent me a spread. She of facts. Oh oh, my God at EU level. Clearly a researcher of Albert I loved you was it about tuition soda Actually, no, but then he so. What else can I help with them? And I asked about that and then he sent the link. It said it so below sixty five thousand Stamford pays for housing, food and maybe more so that's great and so yeah Bain. He said, there's like a tiered stem so that
good. If you angry Stanford gal. I wonder what the hardest, like eagerly figure, will be the hardest bracket, like your parents, made one. Twenty five may mean still fifty you gotta get somehow a real rough spot. Proudly yeah yeah, that's chair, so ya, gotTa Stanford is fact why in fact too His is it. You said the lowest rate is smoking. Is you tar and levels of obesity, You type is lower percentage of smokers. Ten point, six percent cattle for the second lowest eleven point, seven percent. I believe that your mail never seen one smoker yeah man
Hannah is the least obese state in the EU. So no clue him. Nineteen point: six percent of residents qualifying as obese thousand two thousand thirteen bam found any awaited and watches really sit on everyone's likened. The lowest rate of obesity country is twenty percent. Now medically. They say it's like thirty percent body. Furthermore, be city occurs when a person's body mass index is thirty or great there. We go beyond my when you're being eyes higher than thirty previously: Colorado Ok, that might also mountains. Outdoor life as a whole. There just burning off that sure and reducing the p m. I so this stand for prison. Expand
how exciting that he worked with Argo, so good Zahm Bardo, but I guess we gonna brush erect kind of clothes. I I wanted to give people little run down of what was going on stand for prison experiment. S p was a social psychology experiment that attempted to investigate the psychological effects of perceived power, focusing on the struggle between prisoners in prison officers. It was conducted, Stanford on the days of August fourteenth through the twentieth night seventy one for three six seven days, that's a long time a hare by research group led by psychology, ass. Her Philip some Bardo using college students in the study volunteers were assigned to be either guards or prisoners by the flip of a coin and a mock prison with Bardo himself serving as the superintendent several the prisoners, laughed mid experiment and the whole experiment was abandoned after six days. Early reports experimental results claim that students quickly embrace their assigned rules with some guard,
enforcing authoritarian measures and ultimately subjecting some prisoners to psychological torture, while many per whereas passively accepted psychological abuse and by the officers request active harassed. Other prisoners who tried to stop it so interesting, the experiment has described many introductory social psychology textbooks. Others chosen to exclude it because its methodology is sometimes question to you by the What did you say and I think there are some physical abuse? I think there is a people PETE their pants. They were allowed to use the bathroom, there's all kinds of NEA and being able to hold that psychological torture. At the time sitting in your young steamed garments, logistics your prisoner, I'm the guard asked me if you can go potty Kayo pipe please no young yourself.
Ok, ok, then went out with a man. If I was a guard, you would be trying like may catch phrases and still no one legalise eerie around would forget the hawks me relax I'll, just be making jokes. The whole time programme will be in a good mood. Nothing would be learned. I wonder, I wonder if you'd get power hungry up inside, the logical tour. I dont think you need to wander that, because I am in a position to exploit my power in some way and I dont think I do. Yes long to agree on that. Well, just think right pause. About is sometimes I'd. I do feel that you don't abuse your power, but I sometimes think you don't recognize there and then in some ways. It does get push, but not
cause, you're doing it on purpose, but because you're not paying attention to the fact that you have some that's true. I admitted that the other day I was argument. The director rouses arguing the merit of our arguments, rhinos failing to recognise that I did have the power in the situation as far as if someone was gonna get fired. It wouldn't be me in that. Power gap, but yeah will usually thinking about is like having them merit based argument. Yeah. Maybe I do than I do. We all do Probably so the Stephen King quote that Anthony was telling me about reading reading the creative centre of writers life. I take a book with me everywhere I go and find there are all sorts opportunities to dip in the trick is to teach self to read in small sips as well as long swallows, childlike yeah
like a long swaller. I know you're gonna say that when you be bombed, if you can predict predict me well, yeah word I like being able to predict near the whirl, feel safer when they act, unpredictable, predict Borg, scary, that's true so every time I'm unpredictable and repetitive cliche, you should say thank you for making me feel safe. I would again. Thank you anyway, he's so cute many who is very few I really enjoyed. Am I loved everything had to say yeah me too? I felt empowering yeah, I like it, leave it
I believe in change here you're. The best example of that will. Thank you. I want I'll try to stay predictable, see safe, ok, ok! I can tell you the same. Damn voices saying that raises I'll: do it I'll get a loving value.
Transcript generated on 2020-03-06.