Erin Meyer (The Culture Map, No Rules Rules) is an author and professor at the INSEAD Business School, based in Paris. Erin joins the Armchair Expert to discuss how feedback is interpreted differently in various cultures, who the most direct and confrontational culture is, and how to move beyond stereotypes to understand the more complex issues we are unaware are affecting us. Erin teaches us how we need to build empathy and develop strategies when interacting with people from other cultures, the direct to indirect negative feedback scale, and why Americans are seen as superficial and hypocritical in most European cultures. Erin explains how we express disagreement differently in many parts of the world, how every culture is deferring to authority less than their parents did, and that you need to understand the differences in cultures in order to make the right adjustments.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome welcome over an arm chair, expert experts on expert, I'm Dan, Shepherd, I'm joined by monster miles. I loved this episode. Yes, really really fun, because we talk about all these different cultural differences in conducting business around the globe. yeah. It's really fond learn the little idiosyncratic characteristics of all of us. I admire is an author Anna Professor professor at Sea Business School based in Paris, and she has a fascinating book called the culture map that we are going to talk about in depth. She also, Great book called no rules rules, so please enjoy Miss Aaron Meyer. We are supported by top gear America Monica gas last night. I bought the YAP about a whole year. Oh my gosh of motor trend, Bab, yes of the monitoring
so that I could show the girls the show where they loving they loved the memories. So how yea? I love that we watched the first three episodes. The girls were so disappointed when I was They were really funny. They relate dead. Why didn't you finish first year and even in second, was in top gear America stars Rob Cordery, Jethro Bovine, then, and we taken irreverent hands on look at the auto industry. Each week we have tons of fun challenges. We argue about what cars the best and what car we love the most episode. Five, we make hop rods and we raise on a lake bed like the old style, hot rod, movies, which are so fond and then episode six, which will be unfair
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What but they're called home these small, but I actually do not live right in Paris. They live in a suburb, western suburb called know ye. no you search, then I must say: there's this and what are the parisian suburbs, like I've only been to Paris? Proper all of this one that I'm in now it's on the match. Our line of Paris is just like great there. It's just greener than being right in this city. Right is just like there's like parks and trees, the small neighborhood. You feel that even areas has as opposed to Ireland suburbs that our Strip Mall get. We don't have suburbs like that. We do have suburbs, they used to be villages right and now there. suburbs. Suburb is just like. If you're interested
Look, I are historically, the air blows from the west to the east. Highly sewage, Guyana leaves Wes because a mouse bad said blade downriver, our downwind yeah, exactly so everyone like starting the sixteenth, which is the most western, suburban, then I'm just west of the western suburb, though they're all desirable places to live I'll kill grabbed up is results like Northwest Bears no West West, whereas last dammit That's very good air! That's why the reality are there. I will say, though, that the people that live, probably on the Far EAST banks there immune system was prime. stronger yeah, I'm until
Why I'm excited? Oh two, because my french colleague works at Netflix, and she is the one that introduce me to your work and she just said O. Everyone at Netflix was reading this book and it's really good and you can have to read it to work there may not like officially but sort of- and I thought, if that's happening in the work culture of Netflix probably important to circulate or audience summer. Thank you copy. fascinated with the nets flakes corporate culture. To do now. I just have a new book out with red hastiness about their corporate culture. Right. That's over time wanted I know we're talking about cultural, my billions, I gotta know everything under the sun today I like to talk no problem and I am thankful to Kelly that's better than cure is how grown up in Minnesota. You get such a wonder.
A store. I desire to immerse yourself and other cultures like what's the road that leads up to you mean interested, duff, so I was born and raised in Minnesota in a very minor culture of place is as an adult that I started moving other countries. So first there was, the peace corps as a young woman in botswana- and it was during that process that I became really interested in studying national cultures. I saw how my students were motivated in such four ways than children were in the? U S, and when I came back from that, I had two things I wanted to do. I won. to teach, I wanted to continue to teach and I wanted to study cultural differences so that I ended up being a professor out of business. All study. I am writing about cultural differences over me person
I'll tell you so I majored and anthropology him. A very specific reason, which is, I too, was from a pretty monolithic type white, lower middle class kind of huge northern Kentucky, desperate, very unified kind of culture, way of doing things. What was right and wrong, and I felt stifled by that I was always interested in challenging man. I just kept thinking I'm inheriting all these things, and I dont know that I agree with tons of em. I think that's why I ended up. Do an answer, because I owe the myriad of ways humans have lived on, planet earth. There's no way you could say one was better or worse or superior inferior, and I guess I was drawn that cause. I felt may be confined by
where I grew up in Minnesota. I would imagine maybe that is similar. It's mine that I became very interested in understanding how the psychology of the group that you are raised and then impacts the way that you give feedback or the way that you build trust or the way that you make decisions, and what fascinated me, as I started to study cultural differences in the work environment was that I saw that. Actually, there was so much confusion, because in one country they learn how to give feedback one way and another country they learn in another way. So now you have a boss from one country whose managing someone from another country and the message is totally get missed, rider thou became my goal was to develop a framework which I have this culture map framework, which helps people to decode how cultural differences are impacting their effective.
okay, so just right out of the gate, so I'll say that this is now in twenty twenty one, a harder conversation than it would have been for us to have I'd, say in two thousand think there is for such good reason and apprehension about summarizing a culture or a group of people or for lack of a better word stereotyping and so mulatto. Monica nice fights is I'll, say like what most blank do. Blank, and she, of course, has a different perspective. I think we're from a different generation and I'm always frustrating going like sure. Yes, the exception exist, but I'm talking about in general. I think, because it's been so militarized are so weapon eyes that type of thinking that it has prevented us from being able to do some of the productive side of that kind of generalization and I just wonder how you navigate this topic in a way old, where you're not allowed to say most people do anything
Some ways have actually seen the opposite, which is, I think there is greater awareness of at least some cultures. Then there used to be so there used to be. It's kind of idea well like we may look different, but we're all the same and now there is more of an awareness of our well look. I was raised in this kind of background and because I was raised in this kind of background, I have a different value system are different beliefs, and I would be helpful to me if you had trend understand those values, systems and beliefs, so that we can collaborate more effective way. So I would say that if I mean that I do makes people uncomfortable it's that I look at a very macro scale at the world right. So I look at you know the differences between conducting business in France and Germany and Japan and Brazil and the? U s and of course now you know, Americans are saying a lot. Ok, we can't just love is altogether, but they all
Our say we were also say in the: U S way, please understand that I am culturally different than you are. The way I define culture is the culture is the personality of a group, so we could look at generational cultures. How different different generations have different personalities. We can look at gender cultures. How different genders have different personalities. I look at national cultures and I do it. I'm four level, but my framework can be applied also to micro environments and that's a kind of what was going to say is like as much as you can have an idealistic view of the world. If you are actually practicing this within that world and you have actual measurable metric. You are forced to get realistic about that. You, you have to say, ok when you go to Japan now and even give. This is an example which is like it's too broad just say: oh
I do it this way. The french are subtle and the way they talk and that's too broad, but also be very naive, to not know what tools are required to achieve it, somewhere yeah I've been I'll. Just give you a very personal example, so you learned already that I was raised in Minnesota. I've lived in France for the last twenty years. My husband is french. My children have told me that they are french I've learned that from a rash of them in the way we give feedback is very different in the: U S, verses, France, the way we are trained and, of course, there's a range of every culture about what's appropriate, but the range of what's appropriate in the. U S is very different than the range in France. In the? U S, we are trained to give a lot of very strong positive feedback and we preach things like you know: catch people doing things right and three positive with every negative in this is not the case in France, so in France
positive feedback is given a lot more implicitly between the lines and negative feedback more strongly or blood. so I am working with this frenchwoman awhile ago. She has a new american boss. Her boss is telling her tat. Her performance is not accepted Paul, but he's starts by doing at by telling her what he appreciates about her work right ah how confusing for her she thinks wow, that's the best performance review. I've ever received right and by the time he gets to the real message. She isn't even listening anymore. She celebrating then afterwards, he thinks well. She you follow my instructions and she later on when she doesn't get arrays. She thinks well he's a hypocrite because he told me my work was great and then- didn't reward me with the sailor. Things happen to us all the time when or working internationally and often
We don't even recognize that its culture- all we just thank you. Now this person was inappropriate. I was robbed man there, so many great examples to outline how this can work in. so many ways. I assume you read Malcolm Gladwell book tipping point with. A korean airline chapter and they talk about the different fear, basically fear of authority which they give these different countries ratings, and how the pilots, how much that impacts? How a pilot and co pilot operate in the cockpit and that's a total. the girl difference right. It is a cultural difference, but I also loved your worrying use out of fear of authority and I would not have been they wouldn't say: oh gosh, and in Korea we are afraid of photography. What they would say is that we respect the person in charge right. So what that looks at what we call power Justin
so ass a day me about my leading scale on my culture map framework. So we look at a gallop, syrian versus hierarchical cultures, and it looks specifically at how much respect do I showed the person in charge or how much do I defer to authority? and of course this is something that we learn as children right. We learn it in our schools. Am I encouraged to call my teacher, by her first name, and I am encouraged to debate with her open am I encouraged to call my teacher by an honorific title and to show a lot of respect to that person in charge, but there are a lot of benefits to cultures where we have this kind of stronger of respective authority may, like we have a conference in Singapore, very high power distance culture. and I can tell you you know it can be super efficient too our citizens, culture, because I actually with this guy from the Netherlands a while ago, the Netherlands, a soup or a gala, Terry and culture way more egalitarian than the? U S right there
We are like Koreans this dutch guy, he was saying. Ah you know I just love working year, because when I'm late a team in the Netherlands. In every time I try to get people moving in same direction, there contradicting They are challenged me. I take him ideas. Often other directions he's here, you know of I have an idea, and I want to get people start. I just outlined in majors in one like streamline direction. I do think that, of course, there are disadvantages to both systems and that car an airline is clearly an example of the disadvantage of a high powered distance culture. The is in Israel is like the highest. ok. So Israel is the most direct culture when it comes to giving negative feedback in the world. They are the most confrontational culture in the world
They love a good debate. Actually, surprisingly, perhaps they are the fifth most a gala Terran country in the world and more egalitarian than the? U S is very interesting pattern right. What that means is that- and I guess, if you were working for an israeli ass, you may experience him as being very hierarchical, because the way he gave you'd such direct feedback, you would think all he's a dictator, but what you wouldn't recognises that its very appropriate for you to give your boss feedback in exactly the same way. I really this approach to the Israel per year. I think I'm like a very direct who probably too much sometimes any, and I also think I'm egalitarian. I also want everyone to give me shit back and then I want to stop fucking bad at all. on a bed and then, while you know we're gonna get to say, but let's get at it, let's go right at it
But this is the beauty of my culture mapping. The system you can go: I website, where I have my culture mapping tools and you can take your personal profile, you you respond to twenty four. Jones and then you find out where you fall on the scale, and then you can compare that to the various countries. We have sixty two countries and then you'll find if you're living in the right country or not. I want to do a few more tasty fun differences. I thought of a couple personal experience I had my wife and I shot a movie in ITALY and it was the most bizarre experience relative to how it is shooting a movie in the United States. So in the United States the eighty or assistant director is under the director is the dictator right, so tells every department when they got to show up when they can leave blah blah blah. Well, we started shooting in ITALY and we'd, be outdoors nighttime shoot this
beautiful square that we only have four five hours. We'd rehearse and all of a sudden we go lady would go like ok, let's like this up and then over the walkie talkie you'd. Here all electric rap themselves, the electric department which is in charge of lighting when they decided they were done working. They just split in sometimes the transportation department. They start at an hour. They want to start not at the I think can take up so you'd be waiting for your pick up we're like an hour. It was so I found a charming. I think it was really frustrating to the eighty, but I just was shocked that different departments just rat themselves when they felt like they were done, yeah. So this is this. Is my eighth culture dimensions on my framework? It's what I call the scheduling scale, it's what I call a first degree, cultural dimension, which means that it's one of the dimensions you feel. First,
I met some of the other ones you might live in another country for a couple of years before you start recognising this, why me I you might just be on vacation affected and that look sad, structured time versus flexible time, cultures and, of course, the? U S is a rather structured time culture but me give you an example back to get you thinking about this. So, as you learned, I live in France It was working a while ago with a team that was made up of half french and half Americans, and I asked the Americans, you know how is it going working on this french team and they responded a little bit like you just did ITALY right, they said. Ah well, you know their chaotic, their. Alas men at their always changing things in the middle of the media in very challenging a little bit later, a group from India joined the same team, and I ask the Indians how's it going on this team and they said, while Erin, you know what it's like to work with french people right there.
Are you rigid there very in adaptable herself, while on the punctuality and the structure of things that are not able to both flexible as things change around them right. This is what I call cultural relativity and while we can see on the scheduling scale is that, of course, France falls between the- U S and India, which then leads to these opposite perceptions. And, interestingly, the Germans disk. Ably Americans the same way as the Americans described. The French Great, I'm glad you brought the market
was another one. I put on my list of things that I wanted to talk about, because I am so fascinated with german culture in so many ways, just first and foremost that you go there, you walk into the building at three hundred years old and it is cleaner than the house that we just got done building. You know the cleanliness, the scheduling the unkindness talk about like a swiss Watch culture and my wife again similar she was doing press and homburg. We were in Homburg for about a week and a half, and I was really loving. I was like my god this raceworks a man if they say that bus is coming at one thousand. Three hundred and seven, it's fucking dare at one thousand three hundred and seven, some like enamored with it and a man with it and then later we go to Paris as our next stop in at my place is a mess, but my soul's on fire.
Like I see that we are now in the annex to the whole thing. It's like so much structure and you lose a little bit zest for alive and I'm just fascinated by so. Can you just tell us a little bit about the scheduling scale as Italians when they work in the EU. They say: oh my gosh, there's no soul here. Everything is focused on the clock, so they take that is they dont know how to prioritize there so focused on the schedule. but they dont know how to prioritize what's important at every moment. We in ITALY we understand priorities were flexible and those It's been totally lacking flexibility, and same way. You may feel going from Germany or France, but I do want point out, because again, I think that what you are talking about are some of the cultural differences. The people are often aware of, and those ones are interesting, but we
they were aware of them. They are not like that serious, but if we look at Germany, I'm in here is something that you might not be aware of that most german american collaboration aren't, which is that all Oh germans are more hierarchical than Americans. Are Americans know that the Germans complain that Americans are so much more hierarchical than they are, and that's because, Germans are more hierarchical, meaning that there are more focused on using titles and focused on the structure in the organization, but they also more consensual, so they believe in making decisions, slower away over time in getting a lot more people involved in the decisions. So in the U S where we have a system that is both rather egalitarian, we like to use first, aims right away. We don't like to have to ask the boss to meet with the boss.
ah, sir, but we also want a strong decision make her. We want someone to say at the end of the meeting. Okay, we made a decision and then we're all going to follow along, and when the german say are those Americans. They act like they're, so egalitarian, but then, when the boss, Let's go right, they just click their heels and go right at the same time that the Americans are complaining, those Germans are so slow to make. A decision is anything we're gonna happen or sponge cake upper air is another anecdotal experience I have that speaks to that, which is I work for general motors for years. We would have these international car shows where the german division of General Motors would come to the States Opel and the way they treated their technicians versus the way we Yet our technician, so the engineers would go stay at the very nice hotel in the town and the technicians, the guys doing the actual mechanical labour. They would be at a lower wrong hotel, but the Germans, their technician state at them
hotel with them they ate at the same table with them in their wasn't that kind of status, hierarchical thing and it will. You could see it, I loved it. So, interestingly right because they at least when their speaking German, they almost always call each other by their last names right. So that kind of formality gives you the impression they there. Billy top down in their management style. There, actually you see this total dichotomy, at least when it comes to decision making. So that's what I try to do right to get people to like move beyond the stereotype to understand these more complex issues that are often impacting us without us being aware of it, and I imagine that you are broach it like an anthropologist, as where you're not there to say. Oh the french people are right or their Americans are wrong. It's more about understanding. This is, they are, and now how do we cohesively code? This, oh, I never have a right and wrong, and there is no point: there's always benefits to each side, and
The goal is to build empathy and to help people develop strategies. One of my favorite examples. My book, the culture map came out in twenty fourteen, and I remember when I finished writing it. I felt really proud of myself, like I thought I would accomplish something: soon after I had the you know the lesson that you never know everything so I took this trip to Japan While I was in Tokyo, I gave a twenty minute presentation to a group of thirty Japanese and at the end presentation, I asked if there were any questions and no one raise their hands. So I went to sit down my japanese colleague, who was travelling with me from inside the business school I teach at he said, me Erin. I think there are some questions. Can I try so he stood up and under the group penal professor Meyer has just spoken with you. Do you have any questions? No one raise their hands, but this time he said
opt and he's silently observed the group for several long seconds and then he stopped and he gesture to this gentleman who is sitting, From my perspective motion less said all we asked do you have a question, and this guy asked this fascinating question. He did it three more times soon. Afterwards, I said to him: how did you know that those people had questions and he said well, it had to do with how bright their eyes were like this culture. Why agency
That is very challenging for me coming from Minnesota like I do, but then he clarified, he said you know Aaron in Japan we don't make as much direct eye contact as you do in the west. So when you ask the group, if there are any questions, most people are not looking right at you, they're, looking somewhere else that I noticed when you asked if there were quite Since there are a couple of people in the room who were looking right, you and their eyes were bright, which signifies they would like to have you call on them? If you would like to why so the next day I gave another presentation, and again I asked if there were any questions and again no and raise their hands. So this time I thought. Okay, Aaron, you gotta, try, so
I did what he suggested. What he'd done? What I seen him do I not stopped and silently observed the group and, as I looked around the room, I saw immediately that he was right. Ok, most people were not looking right at me. That was obvious now that I thought about it. But as I looked around, I saw that there was one woman in the room who is looking right at me and when I looked at her she although my gaze now were eyes, bright I want to do so. I made a little bit of a little bit of a gesture to her and she nodded her. Had many do you have a question and she's that thank you and she asked this fast
eating question, I wanted to tell you I'm in there was such a critical and unsettled lean learning experience for me, because I didn't see out where I teach. I have these incredibly multi cultural classrooms every day and I just written a book on cultural difference as and when I came back to my school, I started see in all of these bright eyes. In my classes that I had just been entirely missing and not just from the japanese- and I have to tell you that impacted how I facilitate my classes every day, so so these are the really important cultural differences, No, we don't even know it's happening, but there are totally impacting our effective, so those are the ones. I really try to focus on that. The tough Oh, we have something else going on. Is that I think quite challenging for american organizations working with other countries, which is that we are on one of the only countries in the world where we have a participation grade in our classes.
And you know I don't know what you think, but I do believe that in the U s them into there's a tendency that that participation rate is more focused on that you contributed then what you said was actually like of super high quality or the beginning of the dawning Gruber, a fact which is like we're training people to have an opinion whether they have one or not. we're going to reward you for saying anything. We don't give a shit if it's good or bad, that's right. So, of course, what happens then, is that in meetings around the world, Americans tend to talk a lot are there other cultures to let you know you were mentioning your friend at Netflix right who brought up. I called your notebook and I can tell you a man. That's a big thing. That Netflix is that often the american bosses are safe,
in a to their brazilian singaporean. Japanese employees, you not if you wanna, get promoted. If you want to be known, as you have to start contributing to meetings, you know whatever you say it doesn't matter. Just speak, speak up one. That's a very strange message: men even to people in Europe like the idea that I should talk. Even if I don't have anything specific to say- and I would say it's instead revising charisma, more than results like to me. do you want to get ahead in this company? Do something productive and profound, but what were really seeing as you gotta, be charismatic and means, of course, that if you are leading a multicultural team meeting, don't assume Because people don't talk, they don't have anything to say. If you dare we are supported by around these DEC
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listeners in exclusive thousand dollar bonus cash offer towards a new Chrysler, Pacifica or Pacifica Hybrid visit, Pacifica, an dax dot com and sign up to receive this offer updates and more from Chrysler brand. That's Pacifica index come on What happens is that Americans are jumping in so quickly to make a contribution to their voice heard me. Let me give you an example. Here argue I shouldn't do best, but I'll give you a french person mocking Americans. This is from my class the other day. She said. Oh here's, the amount, begins and meetings. Oh, I just want to reiterate what decided, and I just want to say. I really think that that was interesting pointed out. I agree with your Stephanie
The french woman is like. I don't understand why? Did she say God? Oh my god would wear away the time, but we are not in school right. We learn that we need to speak up even if it's just a kind of like reiterate a point or make our voice heard. Let me just say if you are leading a multicultural team, please oh on the non Americans frequently because just because they don't speak, doesn't mean they don't have anything to say. When they haven't found a moment to speak more. You know, and I immediately think of when you're give. That example is: are we the worst in the world? As far as reply? All's on emails, because I also find any time you ve got like twelve people on email, everyone's gotta, say: yeah told We agree, it's like just unless you disagree, shut just leave now, but I guess I agree with you.
you on that, because the males suck by there is an element if your arm, like a team email for work there. If you don't reply on, you don't say yeah. I agree that your boss will think you didn't read it or you're, not as in two as the other people on the team, like part of it, is just showing like I'm paying attention and I'm involved, which is from also from the top down, though, because if you ask the person whose
ending along emails. Gonna get promoted. Do you have to do that, but it is also now well. I will tell you that: no, the? U S, is not the culture where they use reply, all the most all latin. Let's go to assuage out. I was gonna mandarins. Oh now I love this readers culture, but it's the second most consensual culture in the world. After Japan, Japan is the first most consensual culture, and what that means is that a lot of people are involved in the decision making process and the boss is not the decision maker right did bosses the facilitator of the decision. I used to work for a danish company, and I remember also I switch from Sweden to Denmark same thing. Sweden is more consensual than Denmark but same same dynamic. I used to work for a danish company and I remember that my boss, this danish guy, he told me
you know, work please era, nowhere really egalitarian in Denmark and were really consensual, and I thought that sounded grain and I thought I definitely want to work for companies, but that in that started, for example, on he was getting ready for a team meeting. There were maybe ten of us on the team and he said well, we send out an email like what do you think the team meeting should be about and one person responded well, I think, It should be about this reply all right. I think it should be about and someone else. I think it should be about this and from my american perspective as we you're saying earlier. Americans like fast decisions, so I was just like. Could someone just please make a decision so we Ruby boy. Maybe we could have had a meaning by now, but we didn't because no one will decide and then, after about oh, I guess everybody had responded, but me right all of the other nine people. So then,
You made me because I'm seemed uncooperative: right and wrong, and he was like: a higher and we haven't heard from you. You know what's yours, but why, I realized, you know in that environment decisions are made more slowly, but by the time the decision is made. There is deep commitment from everybody and all the details have been worked out right. So does tat to participate and you know in the end everything worked out fine. As long as I was adaptable, you know these systems work there. well in their own cultures. Write em in Sweden. People are super consensual. All decisions take a while everyone's bought it. Works. On the contrary in India, the boss makes a decision for everybody everyone's happy to follow the decision. Works the rhyme as when you have my team, where your made up of half Indians and half swedish people
they don't realize, there's a difference in the way that decisions are made, so they both try to follow their own format, and that ends up with a lot of inefficiency. Right, that's the worst thing we can do so we resist the urge because there would be metrics right to figure out what country is most productive. Our what country has the longest window of bringing an idea into production. There would be ways to measure the efficiency of these cultural approaches, but do we resist that or do we acknowledge it? I think different cultures are best at different name: like even that decision making method like both the Japanese and the Germans are rather consensual than japanese, very and the Germans rather consensual in their decisions, which means they take longer to make the decisions, but then that when the decisions are made they are fixed. They are not changed frequently in comparison in the: U S, we tend to make decisions very quick,
But then we changed them frequently rise and adds a truth. So what happens? Of course, just, and if its not obvious, if you have an american japanese collaboration, is that the Japanese are really frustrated because the american said we had a decision and then their changing their direction. The next day and the Americans are very frustrated. The Japanese are so slow to make that decision, but which is better. It depends on what you're trying to accomplish what are both Germans and Japanese really good ad cars. and if you are going for a perfect product- and you want to make sure that you ve thought through every little possible rest scan it's the end of whatever the fastest. Our on earth than that a third of slow, consensual decision, making work great
but if you are in, let's say the high tech industry and you need to make sure that your product gets out their quickly, then that fast inflexible is much more important. That's true, with all of the different cultural scales that we look, there's a reason that those cultures have those ways of operating, but some of them are better for some things in some four others. I just have this deep curiosity about the russian culture. Let's introduced the culture map and that there's eight scales, and maybe we could talk about Russia as an example of these scales weakened. Let's do it. Ok, so tell us the eight scales. Ok, I'm gonna go through them quickly, and some of them really do need explanation. Ok, so the first one is what I call the commune, Katy scale. It looks at how much we pass messages between the lines verses. How much we belle, everything out and recap in writing, so a great eggs.
All of that is that ok, the? U S is the most. Let's say I use the term explicit the most explicit culture in the world on the framework. It's called low contacts, the most explicit, elsewhere in the world, and that comes because we are a culture originally of immigrants. We don't have thousands of years of share. History and knowledge. We came from different countries, We we learn that messages could easily be passed between the lines are. Confusion was brought really common right, so we were always simplifying things to the lowest common nominated air and then repeating them and putting them in writing on Japan. Ok been speaking automobile, Japan has the highest context or the most implicit culture in the world. There is an expression, Japanese, which is kooky yeoman. I they shortly Kay why it means someone who was unable to read the air well, I guess that makes sense what the eyes yeah sure I mean I was clearly kooky yeoman, I yeah.
situation in France is also a minute much more implicit culture than the? U S is so much more high contacts, passing messages between the lines and there's an expression in French, which is a Susan toned. You and us is only do it means under the herd, so it mean, don't listen to what you heard right. Listen to the message that I passed under what you there's an another word in French, which is to say something at the disease in the UK, which literally means to say something at the second degree. So in French. The first agree. That means take what I said literally, but then, if I say seem at the second degree,
don't listen to what I said. Listen to what I meant right, or even don't listen to what a man's listen to what I really mad. So, for example, the french writer allow Foreign Dan. He wrote at the second degree, so you could read his writing at the first degree at the literal levelling you would see. Oh, this is a child story with a moral, but you could think about that. contacts within which the story was written and you would see. Oh actually, this is a commentary about how Louis the Fourteenth misused his yeah I know there is what I meant and what I really meant, and I assume that you are sophisticated enough to pick up my real message and what we see in business is that, like in France, if you are good at messages between the lines and reading the air you are likely to get promoted in comparison to the EU. Us
whereas if you are good at simplifying things, a lot and putting them really clearly in writing, you are likely to get promoted yes to than the second dimension looks at how we give negative feedback in different parts of the world, whether we give feedback more directly or more indirectly, whether we say it like it is or whether we rap positives around negatives like we do in the U S or whether we really softened the message. So, for example like in Thailand, we might give negative back by saying the good and leaving out the bad right. That would be like I'll give you an example. I was giving a presentation in Thailand and the coordinator asked me to send her to photos and a video so that she could promote the conference and I did and then I called her to see if she had what she needed and she said the photos were excellent
kill a guy. You read the air, so then I said oh, would you like me to send you more video options and she said: oh, yes, thank you. If you have them that way He wonderful! You see that she said the good and left out the bad and then only because I was familiar with the technique. Did I I've been pick up the ball and ask her what she needed now, if I and been aware of that technique. Of course, I would have got enough of the phone and she would have thought. Oh, it's too bad. She doesn't have any other video options. Staircase. Those are or injure our cultures, the? U S is in the middle of the scale of the direct or indirect negative feedback scale where we tend to be quite explicit but, as I said, we wrapped positive feedback around negative feedback, and then we have cultures like Germany, or even more so the Netherlands, or even more so Russia or even more so Israel.
Where we tend to just say it like it is and give you a funny example that I have from my students it for anyone who worked or lived with dutch people. you know their culture is very, let's say honest eyes, so they just say it like it is. I have these dutch guys that we're in my class a while ago- and we were doing this kind of like grew chairing session, where we were in groups of about seven and every one kind of gave their scenario work and then they got help from the group, and I remember one of the guys this guy them this this dutch guy. He talked about all of these problems. He was having working with british people and then this other dutch guy in the group of Peter. He says in front of the grove right he's at them. You know this is
then because you're, a poor communicator and you have elvis- and you have difficulty relating to people- do that look. I'm always interesting was that I saw them. I saw his face, turned red, so I thought okay. This is not a good signal yeah and I also saw the other people at the table. They were looking at their feet right, like they were all from other countries, but they are all staring at their feet like ok, this is not gone well so that evening I went to the dinner and I thought I'm gonna have to clean up that thing. That happened with those Dutch, but I went into the restaurant and these two dutch guys the same guys right. There have been a beer, yeah, they're they're, having a great time so I came up to now I was like I'm surprised to see you to Africa, I remember them right, the guy. You turn red. He looked at me totally surprised, and he said: oh
Well, maybe I looked on consular ball when PETE gave me that feedback, but I saw much appreciate that he would be willing to tell me that about myself I mean that there is clearly a gift, and it makes me feel my two more close to him. Now that he's given me that feedback wow, that culture is really different than my own pheromone visa. To be in on your rail trip. When I was nineteen and in there are three dutch scales and are about our age, my girlfriend ice age. One of them had been on foreign exchange student in Georgia, and I said Did you like it? And she goes? Oh, my god. I hated it down there every How're you doing good to see you she's like icon. In the end, all the fake talk like flowery bologna, you know acting like here from oh you're with somebody she just saw it is so disingenuous. now, like oh wow, we kind of finance charming that wasn't experts.
Talking about yeah yeah yeah right. So I actually, I have a fruit model to explain this So you actually, you asked about Russia, so maybe I can go there are now, so we have what we call a coconut versus peach cultures, so a coconut culture like the Netherlands, but even more so Russia, so cork in our cultures, our cultures, where we don't smile alot of strangers, we don't ask personal questions of people that we don't know. We don't talk about our families with people we not close to write so like the outside of a coconut. We're Howard on the outside, but then, as we do Ella or relationship as we get to know one another, we become more and more friendly and warm and open. We talk more about our families. We asked me about the other family and we start smiling a lot, the. U S is peach culture and, of course,
we want to talk about regional differences? As you know, the southern you asked if she urges all started, so I made a two examples: a peach cultures are the: U S and Brazil so in these calls whereas we smile a lot of strangers. We ask people personal questions that weak thumped into grocery store. We talk about our children with people that we don't even know, but like a peach right, if you think about a peaches is like soft on the outside, but then there the pit you can say we do protect ourselves, of course, in a peach culture its not that we make our hearts available to everybody. So then we get to a part the hard pit where we protect ourselves and we really have to get to know each other well right before we go like inside the pet. Oh, my God I had two that I think what we really do is the immediate from
clarity is the story. It's the bullshit story. There is the lubricant of these social interaction. So it's like. I have a version of my kids I'll. Tell you at the grocery store all she so bright. This one rides a motorcycle and then I'll tell Monica these little bitches there so fucking entitled. You know if I really trust or I'll. Let her know how my kids really are. So I think, like Yasser interest, That's right! You don't even better the grocery store like there's an illusion of openness sought, intimidate yeah, but it's really. The story were telling the world. That's right! That's right and that's how we behave to strangers so what happens then? I'm in so ok, Russia, typical cocoanut culture, Leyden we non smile at strangers. We keep strangers at a distance. This rushing guy eager tells me about his first time taking an airplane to the. U S answer in the south seven hour flight he's sitting next to this American and the American of course, and tells him all about himself
to be a week ago, does in another job interview the next day he shows in pictures of his family and eagerly things wow. You know I'm connected with this guy in a way, I have never connected with anybody so so quickly. He thinks. How could a deep friendship arise in this in the short space of time? So he does something really unusual for him or for in russian culture. He starts talking about his children and his family, and sharing about his life and then the airplane wars- Igor right, number one phone call, the guy the next day s drying out how this job interview you know the American. He stands up and he says it was a pleasure to meet. You haven't a trap door feels he feels
yeah, but he weighed beach trade. He was tricked into thinking that this guy wanted to be his friend and then the guidelines, which is why I'm sorry to announce that so frequently in european cultures, Americans are seen as being superficial and hypocritical John. We offer friendship and then we shall follow forever. So embarrassing area, thereby the american Other, plays an event like gonna grab your hamburgers, I'm gonna go get someone else's approval, invite all of you. you got it could be like. I was treated in an also talk. I opened up on my old thing and he was a narrow path. This friendship but then, on the other hand, I mean: how does the American feel not maybe not in this situation, but the guy who's?
going to Russia to do business or even coming to France. I mean also in France, where so much more co Kennedy than in the? U s. What do we say about french people, their arrogant rain? Why are they arrogant? Well, they don't smile at me on the street. I asked them a question. They act they don't care. I don't trust him about their children and they walk away from me. So we feel I mean that we feel that their hostile that their unfriendly on welcoming- and these are just a me once were aware of the differences we can just start laughing about at and try to be more adaptable, not take it personally right, yeah! Oh, I keep getting so embarrassed about earlier. I now causing makes me want to fly. I wish I could take our russian airline everywhere. I went. Why not only gives zone a brutal and not have to try to get it great? I love it. Ok, how about leading yes deleting scale so the leading scale? We talked a little bit about
Already it's about egalitarian versus hierarchical cultures. It looks at how much we defer to the person in charge, and I'll just give you a fun example. So, on that scale the american culture is rather egalitarian, but not as he galloped areas, for example in Scandinavia or the Netherlands, then, on the other side of the scale we have the latin cultures and then even further, for example, usually asian culture. Right or african cultures, so I was working with with Heineken awhile ago, so a dutch company- and in the Netherlands. You really learn that you know the secretary can easily email, the sea all and give her opinion about something. People are very comfortable working across levels and when I was working with Heineken after they purchase, big this big operation in Monterrey, Mexico and immense.
two common, they tend to defer more do authority more than in the. U S, and certainly more than the netherlands- and I had this mexican guy was working when he said to me on my gosh managing dutch people, absolutely incredible because I come in these meetings and I want to like roll out my strategy and challenging made, are contradictory. Me they're, taking my ideas, often other direction, someone's you just want to get down on my knees and plead with them. Please don't forget that I'm the boss, so I think that's a really important dimension, because it shows that in today's global world it's no longer enough to be able to manage the dutch way mexican Way or American. Why our chinese way, but we really have to start being flexible enough to adapt our leadership style, the countries that were working with in order to get the results that we need- and this is the right track.
Few charted the long arm of all this. Do you find that through globalization, this is getting more homogenous like? Are the differences are diminishing? We do see changing I dont generally see cultures coming together. So, for example, on that scale of solitary invoices hierarchical, are how much we defer do authority every country. In the world is generationally becoming more egalitarian in every country, whether you are from China from Spain or from the? U ass, we defer to authority less than our peril. steady. Children defer to authority less than we do at all. I like that trend, and that's happened. I believe, because of the injured yeah. I think about it, just I'm in a couple of decades ago, like when I was a two fold several decades ago. I was a child and certainly one you know my parents were children, it real. He was the older person who had the information,
you needed information, you had to go just someone who had the experience or who had the knowledge from being on earth. That's an amazing point but today our children can just jump on the internet. You know like we don't trust the doktor anymore, because I looked up on the internet, something it's different than what the doctor told us. So therefore we defer to the doktor less than we used to our kids sado to their teachers, No, no! You don't miss Johnson, it's not true. I looked it up on the internet. I always knew how frustrating and must be to be a doctor these days I mean it just it would be mad mean by a year twelve minutes search. You think trumps. My twelve years of education on this right, so that we see around the world in every country, I dont see that the countries are kind of coming together in a meeting spot. I just see that the whole world is
tend to be more and more egalitarian, with the difference between the countries still there but a clear movement, then, on the direct and indirect negative feedback scale, I dont see a consistent movement. You know in the? U s. I believe that millennials, of course, are less direct with negative feedback and expect more positive, rather than their parents dead, but that's very different than in China or India, where the younger generations tend to be much more direct with negative first, and then we have countries like the Netherlands or Denmark, where I haven't seen much movement generationally, so we
shifting, but we're not becoming one culture among deciding. Then is another one back to our task right here, just deciding we already talked about earlier. So that looks at the difference between consensual decision making and top down decision making will be decisions quickly and we changed them frequently, that's top down or consensual. We make decisions slowly over a long period of time as a group, and then the decision is fixed after we ve made it and then trusting sounds like the fruit metaphor. That's not. thank you for bringing that up, yeah yeah! So that's actually the trusting scale I actually think is the most important of all of the scales. Although it's the most simple, so it looks how we come to trust a business partner, for example, or a colleague in different parts of the world. So if you think about it, there's two kinds of trust: so there is cognitive trust that trust from your brain. That's, like I see you
on time. You do good work here. viable. I trust you and then we have. What we call effective trust. That's my trust from your heart. That's like I feel, emotional bond with you, or I feel I feel personal connection. I feel like I've seen who you are beyond or below your professional persona, because I've seen you you are inside. I trust you now. If I ask you why you, your mother. It doesn't matter where you come from. You'll talk to me about effective trust, but if I ask you why you trust a business partner will see a lot more difference from one culture to another countries like the? U S where we tend to use cognitive trust for work and effective trust for home and in fact, in the U S and when we ve been taught ride unchanging a little better, we ve been taught that it's not safe or smart to get too close to people that we work with right
we're going to negotiate a deal or we're going to manage a team, we don't wanna like open up to my hunch, because there compromises, object, ability right, but then in every emerging market country in the world from. Brazil, to Indonesia, to Nigeria, to China, and there is much more of our cognitive, ineffective trust being all woven together in the workplace, but guess what happens then? What happens is that the american team is bidding for business in China. They take the airplane to Shanghai. They rehearsed their presentation, they get every word just perfect. They have the best presentation past they come in, they give that great presentation and then they come home and then they don't get the work and then they think it's an issue of price they re later that the work went to a group in Malaysia and then they
It was a precious you, but what actually happened is that the Malaysians the malaysian group spent a good deal of time outside of work getting to know their choice. These counterparts, heavy meals gather maybe drinking to gather I'm sharing and opening up so now they have that trust between them and now that makes it much easier for the Chinese to feel like we will work with them, even if they're more expensive, because we know we can trust them. Now So that's a very important dimension, because if we are aware of it, we can, I think, easily adapt our style to build the trust that we need. And if we are not aware of it, we might end up accidently even losing the business entirely yachts. I shall move factor, I'm gonna! U from eyes that as station there
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and then about disagreeing yeah, so that dimension looks at how we express disagreement in different parts of the world, so we have more confrontational cultures, those our cultures. Where we we really like a strong debate. So we really like to get to come into a room together and say you know. I totally disagree with the ill and the more we we have strong open debates, the more we feel that's good for the team and that's good for the business, so this strong ones right or Israel. As we talked about earlier France, so France in Israel, the two must most confrontational cultures in the world by also Germany. They love to have a good debate and Germany in a more factual away, but a good debate then, on the other side of the scale we feel
that open debate or strong disagreement is really really away to ruin the relationship. So we we don't say I disagree with you and those cultures likened the UK, some british people towards the avoid confrontation side of the scale of the british presidency of saying I disagree will almost always say. I totally agree with everything you said. Anne Yeah but we're like talk that in therapy to do that, Like all that's right, active, listen, inveighing ain't! So maybe, give you a personal example: ok, Sir Francis Second most conference no culture in the world after Israel, at the. U S falls to the middle of this scale when I moved to
Hence I told you already. My husband is french. We went to this party, this dinner party with a group of his french friends, and things started out fine part way through the meal. The group got into what I thought was a big fight, so the hostess this woman named Ellen. She started talking about this Gulf tournament that happens in their village and whether it should continue or not. So she said I was just recall- I am against it and then she said all of the reasons that she was against it and then her best friend Daniel said and then to decide pesky to exist. You say that because you are selfish, Andrea had already everybody at the table started. Taking aside, some people were fora, and so we were against it in their waving their arms. Their voices are raised
you know in my called you remember, I'm from Minnesota ready in the U S in general. If this happened at the dinner table with guess over, you know, I would have thought this was a very bad. Sign, I would have expected someone to stand up walk out of the room slam the door. I never come back here so I was wishing I was anywhere, but there and someone looked at me and said well Aaron. What do you think- and I was absolutely no opinion. Others crossed course them in the interesting part was that about ten minutes later the topic change. There were no hard feelings at the table and then and then yeah went into there. The other room arms around each other, best friends, as always, and when I got into the car with my husband that evening, you, my french husband, I said all what a horrible evening- and I remember he looked at me himself. What are you talking about? We had a really fun time tonight and so give you grown.
Words that so now, when you're in that seems a jewish human over twenty years, can you give to the place where you enjoy it personally, opera, you haven't got what I can tell you is that I have different reaction to this in business verses in at my home life rowing in business, I'm in as a professional, yes, let's say, have totally adapted. So what that means is in my classrooms, when my french participants raise their hands, and say no, I totally disagree with what you ve just sad men men. They explain why they disagree. If that happened in the EU, as I would think of this person is not happy with this class. Yes, it has no respect for me. I would think right that they they that I wasn't credible or something like that, but I know when a french person does that that is of the utmost positive sign that this person is totally engaged and they would like to now have a debate with the class about this,
fascinating topic, I no longer have an emotional reaction to that, but I am afraid to tell people that my husband as that. Luckily I eventually get over things or I would not speak to any of his cousins anymore, different dinners that things have been well Montague. I have had this problem in real life, which is my family, will argue and scream at each other at the dinner table and totally fine and am now realizing. You know the patriarch of my family was was a hundred percent french and very french guy, and I Maybe that's where that all comes from. Like this, the yeah I mean, and I feel that I also grow up in a similar arise because of the indian macro, but internet ever resolved. There were lingering feelings after so it's has made me feel. Go too. We enter that.
Type of commerce, yeah yeah polemic authorities can be upset with each other for a couple days. The only thing that's interesting Monica because you MA am, I know, there's this book called the art Canada, India, which is like written in India for Indians right. My indian students have told me about. I actually have a right of it. My Indians are focused. We have happened, That being said, India is rather to the avoid confrontation side of buying a disagreeing scale, what I've seen as that. Indians may be very yeah, like you met it ever in certainly emotionally expressive. Yes, in a family environment or when there are around people who are close to them, but then, when it comes to a work environment, especially if they're working with people from other countries they tend to really not even say no right. They yes and then pass the no between the lines by something like like. If your boss asked you to do so, either
a very common situation and this german guy managing a group in India and he says to his indian staff member. You know, here's what needs to happen Can we do this and the indian Guy kind of it will be difficult He explains why it will be difficult, but then he says we will do our best and the german guy thinks the Indians to work and the indian guy. things he has clearly just explained. There is no way in hell that he has any time to do that. Canada will? There is a high level of respecting authority there. I found your rank re, so bass right comes into play. That totally makes sense, that's whatever my parents in the work environment as much different them. Yet the dinner table matter very, very interesting. I'd like to come to one of your family dinners Yamanaka her
Other nation ring about denouncing Dang year ago is also interesting as I'm american and my dad is from India, but my mom is also american, but grew up. First general, like she moved She was section mooted that denies when she was sick, so there is kind of a bizarre clashing of things happening as well. Probably yeah sure- and I you know this- is what people always want to talk about after I give a presentation, so my book in my speeches, always about business. Afterwards, people This come up to me to talk about my wife, whose, from this culture, my mother, whose from that culture, because of course this is about Interpol. Relationships and if we have multicultural families men like me or I'm american, but my children, born and raised in France right and is so strange to see your children like coming from a different,
culture than you do all the cars are might so. This is this. Is the global world that we're living in, but our global. We become more important. It is to think about these things of you. We ll have to laugh weed really good, we have allowed you to. We have we Joanna Task and persuading ok scheme? darling. We already talked about so just quickly scheduled time right versus flexing time? Austria, tyrolean electricians versus the Ella Electric on, can get you ve got it right. That dimension. Look specifically at let's say in every culture we value structure in business and we value flexibility and business, but that specific dimension tells us how much a culture of values, one in comparison to the other rights
over the other. Ok, then, the last scale well that one is very difficult for me to talk about in a couple of minutes. I think it's one of the most important dimensions, but also most the more the most complicated. So it looks at the difference between what I, when I call application first Verses principle: first, cultures: it's based on the idea of induction, which is application first verses deduction which has principle for us and like in a country like ITALY or Spain or Brazil or France or Germany. They really learn in their school system. This system of first looking at all of the theory and the philosophy before coming to any kind of on conclusion, or
action like a holistic view of the whole thing we're like, we can't do math problem about pie until we ve proven pie so like if your study in math and application first culture like the: U S, look at the? U S is a strong application, first culture. So that means we open up our math book to page one chapter one and we start by getting a sample problem. We get a clear formula and then we take the formula and we apply it to real life situations. So in the american school system we spend a lot of time. Looking out real life situations case studies at practical application to really focused on application first, and we don't like to spend too much time and we learn that in school, but definitely in business.
Don't like to spend too much time like talking about the theory right. We want to get tough action, the area in comparison to especially many other latin cultures, but like Latin America, but also latin european cultures or countries like Germany, where we really feel we can't get to application. So you open up your mouth book page one chapter one: can we wrestle with the theory behind the math and the philosophy behind the math, and only after we can approve and those principles that we then can come to applicants So I got a like that because I can see the value and which is in a weird way it's getting new to buy in like ok. I think this is a noble pursuit. Now, how do we do it? I see some value and that, like deciding almost that, you would want to pursue
this, why? Why would you sure and of course so in the french schooling system, what they teach introduction thesis, Anti thesis synthesize? So that's very deep and the french mind verses in the? U S where we teach get to the point and stick to the point So how that plays out would be that, like, if I american and giving a presentation in Germany. So Germany more principle, first, the? U S more application. First then, I'm than a start on my first by getting right to the point. We waste three billion a year on Rivets this is what we waste, and this is my recommendation for how to move forward. Try this Germany Way way, but you know how many people did you Paul? What questions did you ask? What methodology did you use for analyzing, the down and then the american things there challenging my credibility, or their wasting. My time. Writing, oh and also the German thinks this american woman thinks I'm stupid
I'll just swallow, just give me despite conclusion- and I am not even going to think about it- CS. I really identify with this, I'm so annoying, I'm so disagreeable, my wife. What we do x y know uniting all cable, backup. Why are we doing X, Y and Z? I got to believe in this before I get involved in the planning of it I can really relate and then also of course, what happens on the other side would be. If you have someone from oh Brazil or Mexico or ITALY or France or Germany, was giving a presentation in the U ass, I'm an they often spend quite a bit of time closed from the spanish guy last week in class. He said my american boss said to me last week: Ivy are when you give a presentation, it is not a strip show. You spoke of wine piece of cloth,
before you eventually get to the poor figure, three right on it, and I just thought that was a great description, because in these are more principle for its cultures we really been hot, been my friend. Children have really been taught this system of how to build till you get to the conclusion. Like a structure I got. Oh, that's interesting. Is that also ties back into like time like we want to just get to the point that we wanted to be done same within the scheduling like there's no time for flexibility. We just gotta get it done in this order? So it all kind of at all adds up, and I would imagine the French enjoy process more than we do. You, like my big goal in life, is, do enjoy process, but I'm so you know results oriented that I often miss process, which is where your life exists.
but the French are very, very flexible. Remember that ryo guy, so they are not. I mean nothing like the Germans, so Germans at love, structure and process. The French are more, have a tendency to want a you know, think freely and have like free associations, which I think is one of the reasons that the french cultures, create a frame I mean of the French like what the others fashion and beauty and that's because they're not like tied down with structure. yeah they believe in this kind of our creator of cultural structure, which then leads to innovation. but I do want to kind of wrap up that last dimension. By saying that you know my goal is not just like tell me what the difference our desire and say goodbye.
because actually I'm and I think there are a lot of strategies that you can use like I've learned and we know it's not so difficult to just when I'm giving a presentation in Germany to always start by first explaining you know here is the methodology used the research I dad before I get to the point I ain't and give practical examples in the same way that Javier can learn to have a slight at the beginning. That says these are my conclusion. Perhaps I am doing this structure right. We have to understand the difference in order to make the adjustment is also I love it. Is it just Netflix? You wrote a book with red or just involving reading things here so red, and I read history and I co authored a book which just came out a few months ago, which is called no. Those rules? I'm no rules. Rules, no rules. Rule no rules rules. Maybe you should have put a z.
The end of this, as that would have made it really clear. I've had to explain that, because around a world they haven't understood at because they think it means rules for rule. So that's what I thought when I ran riot has been translated wrong. The title is, which is better run but too late although it is the usual column potatoes, this is never thought of as Ebay, so that broke out. We, while it's a whole another star. Why did you that another day, but our guy, who cares about the crazy corporate culture at Netflix and how this counter into of culture has led to this extreme flexibility and innovation and what other companies or entrepreneurs are team leader
do you want to have more innovation and flexibility what they can do to achieve that, but yeah? I was the reason that I became interested in that flex, and this is only actually the last chapter of the book was because they had this Kristi Coulter. That had one attribute, which was all about candor Surry, contacted me because we're getting ready to international eyes the company rhinos at the end of twenty fifteen, and they were getting ready to roll out into other parts of the world, so I started working with them as they got ready for their international expansion, and I was very concerned. I was very concerned about how this kind of edgy provocative culture that was working in a fabric. a sleigh in the? U s that how that was gonna play out in Japan and and Singapore and Brazil, so all the raiders. They can learn about that on their own. The known these rules, What and you're so interesting in this stuff herself, so fascinating.
He always joining us in the evening over there and in France, my pleasure nights, you talk with five years, A lot of fine take care.
Transcript generated on 2021-03-04.