« Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

EXPERTS ON EXPERT: Erin Lee Carr

2019-05-30

Erin Lee Carr is an American documentary film director, writer, and producer. She sits down with the Armchair Expert to discuss her journey to sobriety, her interest in complicated humans and growing up with parents who are addicts. Dax asks about Erin’s relationship with her father and Erin talks about creating boundaries in her filmmaking. The two talk about process-oriented work, her need to speak for those who are silenced and how AA meetings taught her how to listen.

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome welcome welcomed armchair expert. I'm Dan Shepherd said news. While happy is really meant your mouse is on a little more. Needed on our vacation somewhere in California. Ernie will not quite another location. Europe is near palm springs, but I think that what a change- ok great so somewhere in the palm Springs area, Monica hosting all of her pals from the land Georgian there haven't big blow out, which I'm so excited for about, and of course I was in Michigan Foursome medical things for a friend, but I'm back I'm so I am happy to be in the attic. Our guest today is Aaron Lee Car and she came to I saw a circuitous Lee. I think, that's the word I say through Lena Dunham. She suggested that we have her on an
what a great recommendation and then, as I learned about her, I realized I can't of seen Oliver movies just by coincidence, and I knew her down right now on HBO. She has an incredible documentary about the female olympic molesting scandal called at the heart of gold. That's currently on. You probably also saw her documentary that was incredible and is now a tv show called Mommy dead and dearest about Moon chosen by proxy, which was super fascinating, an even more exciting. She gave also linked to her new document. That's coming out called. I love. You now die the Commonwealth verses, Michel Carter, which is that very famous is everyone on the news about a girl who was texting a boy to kill himself rob? Did you watch the link? I did as its? Ah, some it's two part
and it led to so many juicy debates. I cannot recommended enough look forward on HBO coming soon and then just on top of everything else, airily car, what folk, in the light of a human being so please enjoy guarantee o before we go there still tickets available, we're gonna go quick for Cleveland Detroit in Chicago. If you're, Minneapolis, they're gone and I'm sorry and were all very, excited accompanying the Midwest, so go to our website. Toby Toby, w dot, armchair expert, pod dot com and, following in by some tickets, were Cleveland Detroit or Chicago at the end of June. I love you arm. Chair expert has brought to you by the cash app the number one finance up in the app store cash app is the most power a way to send span and save it's connected to the free cash guard. The only debit card with booths
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when, when please download the cash app today, periphery, please he's loafers divide so fond of me, you we don't know, Dunham and she said I really want you to intervene. My friend, Aaron she's, wonderful eyes had been: let's do it and then I knew that you did at the heart of gold, which I watched. And then I saw ringing in my ears like, oh my goodness, I know all about you because, I read the knight of the gun, because your father, David Car, was friends with Tom Arnold back in Minnesota, Wisconsin or something and so Tom was friends with them recommended. I read that book. I think it's my favorite drug memoirs. I will set the John roots called.
That's one of em yeah yeah recovery, genre, but leg. You know what the really bad stuff that happen. How do we account for some sort of book? Yes in? Do you like those book in general? Absolutely yeah? Your favorites love, I naps bringing a love story. Oh I've never write ass, just this incredibly weird devastating story of a female journalists who was duly ambitious and addicted and like found herself between two relationships like a lot of infidelity and then, like you, know the toxic today of alcohol while being really ambitious as a journalist and she's no longer with us. She died very early on in her life, but the book from the disease or other things merely like very early cancer. Ok, Mercosur wrote a book about loving dogs. They take their dogs. Are this incredible primary relationship and leaving it taught her how to love
about you make me look like Nora Jones Dream boat. We all want to look like. I is absurd. I be kind like her name damages sends the bar, and let me just tell you those photos do not actually do justice to what her presences every matter now I was like, I think, I'm head over heels in love with this person. Just just looking at her aura. Yet was very captain. We will not. When I read that book I was pretty shocked with used to hearing a meaning things like that, but there is. There is a certain safety in that we ve all done really despicable things were ashamed of sulphur. Your father do have put that stuff out into public, particularly the stuff concerning you and your sister were I'd. I mean ideas. Remember thinking.
Do I have that level of bravery? Could I on my mistakes to that degree? What's your answer? I feel like I'm inches towards it on here, but boy I don't know, because I have two daughters. A lot define a lot of my self esteem in my identity, based on how good of a dad I am or am not on any given day so yeah that be a real hard one to cop to cuz in a nutshell, for people haven't read it your dad was a cocaine, addict yeah, crack cocaine. He in your mother and you guys arrived you and your sister. You have twin sister and they we're very active attics. The thing I remember the most was: isn't there a story in there, but I M going to a crack house remained. Is this your dad in leaving you guys the car in the middle of winter? So it's yet the baby the snow suits he. Basically, my mom
was away and he needed to get high and he said he wasn't the sort of dad that would leave us at home alone. So he thought the best thing was to bring us with him in the car. It's this incredible moth, where he like recounts this night, like a story tying audio podcast and he goes into the crack house. He supposed to be there for five minutes. It ends up being what could have been an hour three hours and he goes back to the car and it's like what, if they're dead, you know you checks. If we're breathing in his moment of reckoning, has he knew that you said that God would not forgive that year held how old were you guys the eight months? Oh maybe I was very early on a good who don't bring us yeah. Don't Ferguson associate leave us in the crib manure yeah. Look I've made a decision
is that in the in the cold, harsh light of sobriety make zero logical sense, but at the time they were like bullet proof, o cams razor. This is the simple is best approach to this problem that now defy all logic. So man just just handling eight month old and if you're dead, sober any help would be to leave. You probably wouldn't even choose to involve them in an errand like go pick up a dry cleaning or something, but yet adjusts pop a man. I can imagine garlic, nope, no sweat, Nepal. I will be in there too formatting the grab the shit I'll come back home than everything's golden wow factory. On that now you and I have in common that so my dad also is inadequate. Thank God. He didn't have primarily custody of us. My dad did and he got sober. He died thirty years sober
how many years it was your dad's over probably around three or four years, three or four years boy, man and also there's a point in a book. I just remember being a great of cautionary tale. He had some long term sobriety. Life was going fantastic right, they hosted a dinner party and people had left little bits of alcohol and different classes in decided to combine them all into one glass as he was cleaning up, and then he got to the sink to port down the thinking. This is with some pretty long term, surprising, ears, Fleming, eighteen, fourteen and just said bottoms up and drank the weird fuckin mix of every kind of alcohol that would be served at a party. I just read that, oh god, you had that's enough and for me still like just cleaning up and be unlike Phuket, crazy and it's. What can you do to cushion yourself between you and the facts? You know he just wasn't doing I anymore right. Yeah,
compare it to the tragic success of vaccine part of what they suffer from his how effective they are so people dont, see people polio and then they think I'm who's gonna get Polly. I don't I'd rather not have that chemical and my kid mince like year, because it worked and you don't know what polio looks like. So it's like the better you get. It gets kind of harder to remember. Maybe that you need to do all those things right, gas point six, that's like what what does it mean when we would have come across a modicum of success that we begin and if you ll special or like it, I'm gonna sit in the room with everyone whose mentally Othello, even though every room that were and is probably filled with mental illness, I mean. I just think that, for when I asked him, you know about his relapses, it really was like I just I served to believe I was special and fixed it and that it was a crack problem was an alcohol problem. If you look at whom diagnostics Daphne was an alcohol problem, and but I think that what
need to examine as like real ups is a part of recovery and there's this total weird thing that happens like be relapse. You know you shake your head and you know that you're in the naughty chair for oil, enough to raise your hand, that's a good one. Oh baby, we're gonna drink again, unless we don't yards the most kind of predictable thing. Probably that will do the thing I dont like about this. Oh you know continuous sobriety. Is it this counts? The fact that someone who may be relapse ten times over the course of twenty years but ultimately was sober for nineteen of twenty years. That's a huge win for inadequate, even if their three lapses in there and what not it's still a huge win and a huge victory, and you can only evaluated by how much continuous sobriety there was yet absolutely ok. So you
the fact that I do wonder how many parallels we have cause your day was charismatic. I met him before he was interesting, charismatic, good talker. My dad was a car salesman. He was the ultimate good talker He was universally loved and I, like everybody in a lot people would come to me. I just I can imagine having your dad as a day and I got a little resentful about that. Personally, it was is any baggage that comes with having today add whose like known for having written this book, and then he owned a lot of stuff, but I bet he didn't known some stuff. You would have liked to have to own, or did that not happy? I mean you knew. There was a small amount of narcissism that persisted in his personality, where I was an audience member I was one of somebody that unite would be calling him and it kind of you know he won't to talk about meeting you or you know the story that you and it was just like being his
howdy. It was sort of secondary. I was somebody that could take in and understand and speak his language, but I was listening right and so I think that there is resentment in that's, but I also, if you ever, if you reed, or look at an interview with him, like he's so smart, that I was genuinely learning every conversation we had so that the resentment dissipate when I was like. Oh, this is an education and craft her how to talk to people or how to to the story and sort of like thinking about that. Now that he's not here, I am so proud of being his kid. I want to continue talking about hunger, so proud of him, I'm so proud of the night of the gun, his book, epic and devastating and dramatic, and like there's almost nothing like it grew a hundred page. It's really really well written on top of everything else, like the most brutal honesty of heard mixed with just great writing. Are you aware of tapping into universals that I think that not everybody can really do?
How did you have any periods of estrangement from him, for you always seek? My story was, I was resentful towards him. I then got sober that kind of help does, but I still was carrying a lot of stuff everything I hate about. Myself is what I hated about him and then he got diagnosed with cancer and though we spent a lot of time together at the end, and it was incredibly cathartic healing and wonderful, and I just wondered if you had any of that similar journey here. I think that you're being able to lake see the conflict and see the things in your South Eden like about him, but also for giving him that's right. I think that a lot of people are like they just let the resentment build and there's no forgiveness. I mean I do my dad was my primary parent, and so I don't even like got angry am I didn't always have like a place to stand. Ultimately he did do the work right. He raised you re yeah, so that's the relevant when
reading the book, can you remove yourself when you're reading it at air would feel. I could be so hard as a character and that story, it's so personal. It's mainly about him, though, so it's a you know their their developing it for effects. Bob Kirk and I met about him playing Meda and they're trying to do it and to re, read it after he died and it was kind of just like hearing his voice. His language in the way that he constructs sentences is sort of like dead, would meet Don Quixote. It's a worry its is it's not away that my brain works, unlike I literally just wrote a book, and I wasn't can be nothing like this. This is oh, oh, you know well written, but I don't know like I don't yeah. I guess I don't see myself as the baby in the snow. Soon myself as somebody's listening to my dad, I think it's so cool what parenting does to people like you,
you with your daughter, is unlike you: U chain little by little and all the sun, like you are there for some one else. It will and you start becoming aware and now that I have kids. I can see in their eyes I'm not a human being, which is fine the yet again, Sabena yeah but yeah. I do, I realize like no I'm not like other people for them, I'm supposed to be perfect and nice I shouldn't have. I shouldn't be tired and I shouldn't have any of these things, because I'm actually in a third category which is I'm not human yeah dad dad. I want something from you get it for me now. Just in my exhortation is you'll be perfect, as I wanted expected. My add to be. Ok, you grubber Minnesota and you ultimately went to university was cancelled. Madison any study communication did what kind of romantic the fantasies did you have for your life.
Is your car position unexpected, or is this where you are aiming? I really wanted to be a thumb. Chris I was obsessed with watching movies and thinking about them, and I remembered day I had like all these containment weeklies like papering. My walls, I was obsessed with Buffy. Vampires layer, lady yelling law, just every episode ten times new the dialogue and went to the convention's had the stake really just like sex is that we were given to the conventions are good for you did you for me, like a boy there or agree that your allow one was in LA yeah, imagine, like. I have a famous see that that's where, like people fall in love like you? Finally, we? U like Buffy to like I imagine that, would just be a real shortcut. Yeah yeah, it was great David Orianas was my first saw Aberdeen crash. I mean I have like pick. years of him with his shirt off in my long leg, was leg adequately.
You guys are six months apart by the way I just did to you and how close August eighty seven April, You know I'm going Flynn who she is because of a similar thing. Because her father taught film at college, and then she was kind of obsessed with that stuff to amend became her. She asked for a copy of my We then duress my thumb about lunch housing. While she was, I think, like writing on all sharp object Europe after clear is that flattering is all how deeply yeah as smart and cause that looking at my work in the process of creative discovery, yeah really doesn't get better fast, but it's just Craig, I wanted to be a thumb critic and my dad was like hey there's. Six of those jobs limit ratify a really good writer and their from their men, and he was never discouraging me and a sexist weird way. He thought I could do whatever you know what the real unless he was yeah. I think it really helps
real surround us figuring. That kind of stuff out could, like you know, getting very deep into getting my phd in, Buffy setting at that moment. I dont have a reason here I mean: are you listening and another attic, probably my own. I, like my hair, falling at base man, I'm sorry, you know where it gets crazy, complicated or at least I'm forecasting in the future that is going to get crazy complicated. I want my daughters to dress, however the fact they want, and I want them to party if they want a party, and I want them to do whatever they want to do. I also feel inclined to tell Reed Mozilla crack hours book on re, near be hard pressed to find a sober girl in that situation or sober guy suggests. No, like that, the vat rate the heart of gold. Although girls were sober, there is an element of their dismay. Foam about sex abuse Usa, gymnastics I mean that's a trusted position. There are predators everywhere through that's true tag.
For me it is, and I feel, an obligation to let them know what the reality of the world is, which is so I watched them jump had for once I, but I want to really dig into article because I loved it so much I'm a Minos survivor of of molested it gave me nightmares last night, so bad had nightmares all night long. It's ok in I talk about it all the time and I like to think that I've processed a ton of it. I woke up this morning like now in preparation. To talk in view. Not only did I watch article, but I also decide listen to this american life. Have you heard that episode about the kid who realises he is attracted only to children and he doesn't really know attire, feathered, tired and feathered pray Everson about three? It's incredible and it's really relevant for me to keep in the discussion. When I see something like article, because I want to kill the guy, I want to kill the guy. I want to kill the guy in public. I want to be the day.
you want to kick his ass in the courtroom. That's my nature and then I also have a little voice in my head saying no one went to the store and picked out. You know what I want my sexual preference. To be children. Nobody would pick that also. I don't have to talk myself out of molesting kid, what a fuckin horrendous way to go through life. I just get your document like everyone is a victim of this whole thing, but but people put themselves in positions of power is where they have access to children. That is a choice. Yes, our sexual preference in proclivities, obviously not a choice, but the intense research and the ability of Larry NASCAR to make sure that his life was designed to have access to children all the time. That's what makes him
a seriously unforgivable. I mean one of the most prolific pedophiles of our time. Yes, it's completely unforgivable. I completely agree and then in that turn feathered they give a statistic that is maybe one to three percent of males are pedophiles That's between one and three million people that that's terrifying and again, I feel obligated to let my kids now I'm saying others view million of them. Potentially it's all very tricky and I see let's rewind etc. Wonder review movie. So when you went to university was content, it was that we were actively in pursuit of really specializing in beer or you did at our another common yeah. Now diet is really honest relationship with my mom and I said to her at a certain point, I'm going to drink. I want to be honest with you. I realize
dad's, an alcoholic and sore on my uncle's, but it's an experiment I have to try. I can't leave planet earth did not find out if I am or am not and she's like. I'm really scared for you, but I understand that you need to do it. What was your process of going? I'm going to try this. Despite knowing what I know about my dad the moment I drink alcohol, it felt like magic therein. I drank to a black at every instance. Without any awareness of what came before me, I don't I just like it was like to have access to it turn your brain off like into have alcohol, was so worth it yeah. I didn't care if I had black out to relax the people other people didn't drink like I did. If I got to experience that warm, that would serve to quote your body and it just is it like in the first time did cocaine. I talk about in the book like it felt like my dna had been complete.
And I was in no way it literally has like I was born with my parents, like you know, doing drugs than delivery. Room, like you know, like there's a part of my dna that where drugs and alcohol, which is at such a close contact, so it makes total sense. But why did you when you first started experimenting with it? Did you have any sense that oh I gotta be careful, knowing what my dad or did you did? You never have that kind of thing I mean I don't want to come across as a real dummy, but just like, I think, I'll go in your set. Nineteen, like you do distance yourself from like who your parents are. That's them problem. I am person I mean where my a mother, was deeply addicted. Tube pills, I never took any Pell slake rye was able to not do that. Bona came to our guy. Wasn't able to make that sort of educated decision in Rio
everywhere call. It is to be a special seventeenyearold to say I'm avoiding this. All I got, a bird for senior year and I went all those parties and tried to hit on girls, sober knowledge of, and it was spread, Austin, rude alert, girlhood and boy had an alcohol mix. Yes, as a matter of course, and sell it sort of, despite having generational proclivities that you're gonna gravitate towards it. but also there's like there is a genetic components of the sea, and I think that it take someone like yeah, like I think it so rare to be able to like look at them. Like no doctor, we me and I'll stay away from it, but I also think, like yours, sobriety made who you are today and, like that's a good thing, oh yeah, and I think that, in order to get somewhere, you need to have alcoholism slake. Where is that Oh yeah, I'm ultimately very grateful for the whole experience at this final I dont wish. I had not gone down that road. There are few incidents
wished, didn't occur, but in general I'm glad I did everything I didn't ended up here, DV allowing yeah, thanks sobriety is a superpower, the most prolific people I know are honestly sober because when at night there thinking their present their working there connecting the dot and I'm not saying anything against. Not so, but now it's fine, but like people turn off after seven p, dot m: it's like okay, so you know- and you know, I think that even if people try brief periods of sobriety like ever makes fun of like dry January Blake, you don't see what happens when we put when you put down substances, even if you don't have problems, I think you'll be surprised at what can accomplish yeah Bernay Brown has a good point about that. It it's like. Yes, it does it lops off certain anxieties and things, but it also lapse off the the counter to that as well joy and presents, and all the
these drainage cart. You have just like a fiesta. Ok, so while you were at school, I guess when you went to vice, because when you go to college, you went to vice on an internship and at that time we still imagining that you were going to be your journal, with the written variety nor can I buy, went there looking to be in their video department. Now that you know what they were doing with videos and journalism and telling stories was was but the new ways of doing- and I wanted to be a part of that right and you were a fan of vice I'm sure, yeah, it's very exciting and scary and wonderful and specially two thousand nine Amy you nicer working there in two thousand ten mean they were on the upper later. There is you Oh, there is just this sort of cool factor. They were able to tap into rights without any of this sort of you now now it sort of a little bit seen as more do she Faz now I think it is one of the founders really went. Sideways
is one of the guys away nationalist now so gap. Mcguinness who they cut, ties with pretty early on, as he was espousing, pretty anti semitic believes and, oh yes, he is. The white men have joy. He left out of this to her. The proud boys result grew the proud boys, tourism. No, no, no, the eye. He he's visas, Virgil, wide, manage review the iron, and there are already does that is making big inference. I've seen most all of your work. Just by accident, I love documentaries. I saw a click print gun, the inside story of the three D printed gun movement. You did that, while Europe vice they all right, bread, some guy, figured out how to print plastic gun with three D printer and he felt like everyone should do that. Now
you at that point just being assigned things or you able to kind of pick what you were going to do a documentary about, as always, had a fair amount of agency and be able to pick what I wanted to do, and I think that one of the skill sets I bring is convincing people to. Let me do what I want without any sort of oversight rising, so you're, a good saleswoman too good scale. So your quoted as saying you're interested in the weirdos on the internet. You know I love thinking about morality and story and what is the thing that you were gonna click on like I want to make things, that are interesting, better psychological thrillers, but are not hard to watch. A lot of people been telling me at the heart of gold is really hard to watch. but now my sort of mice, backdrop of what's her to watch his toes good, because I've been making things for so long, thereabout disturbing things, but I don't. I just think that you know read it and twitter and these platforms they guy,
do in what is viral and so documentaries we're having this incredible age, where people want information and documentaries and podcast and tv shows where you it's just so information, but also fun. A lot of my films are psychology, oh renderings of complicated people, because I grew up with a complicated we are not equal to our best or worse to action. So what does that mean as intersects with crime man? So that's like always been driving influence and my dad, who is my mentor and no celebrated near times? Journalists he said, get a beat, get really good at it, and then people will contact you to do that. And so you look at my thumbs. Thought crimes. Should the cannibal cop mommy, then Dear says about Gypsy rose, Michel Carter, that's coming out in a couple months on each Bio, but Michel occur there. Women who take said her boyfriend a kill himself. He asked it creates outright
each zone. I want to show all the elements of the story, one of my proclivities that my wife points out in its disturbs or business, I'm obsessed with Pablo Escobar Putin, I'm obsessed with people whose will is undeniable, like forget, just take aside the the the morals of it, this guy Pablo Escobar, growing up in a fuckin favela, marrying becoming the eighth richest man in the world. I am I'm just intoxicated by that. Like that someone could decide, I don't give a fuck and I'm gonna, I'm gonna capture, power and wealth, and all these things bar through hell or high water. I dont know why I'm so drawn you love a rise and fall, but we all love the rise because its who we see ourselves as being like how can we take notes? What something that set that little boy, apart from the others and like how can we apply that to our lives,
regular rather than making the mistakes of the falling is like he is go well for her ultimately now, but but you can't, Hopefully I welcome you saw the b, I mean it doesn't look at pictures of Putin and it's just fell by I mean we're very similar like how do people bull, assemble power? Yes, stay to air, we are supported by door dash. I gotta tell you when we have kids, we could no longer eat at any of our favorite restaurants, because their unruly and it's just a nightmare to be sit down situation with a four year old six year old, so you just use door dash and grab onto your very favorite me. It's from one of your favorite restaurants. Ordering is so easy. You just get the Doordash app and choose what you want to eat and a dasher will bring it to you anywhere. You are not only is that
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You know unbridled brutality that allowed him to rise to power, as many people are brutal and in sociopath EC and all this, so it there's other stuff going on. Then I find to be honest. I caught a personality, yeah dummy God Status Lake. You know how do you set yourself apart and like some of that is through charm? Well, yeah in also again, but both Pablo end Pablo is five eight and he was pudgy and he was a pot had at least not the american President archetype vote until he, then it's gonna weird face. It draws? U N! I ever an office that I go to where there's a picture of Putin on the wall. Less on horseback, which one is it it's a headshot overhead, but a basically, it looks like he's what Can you at all in my answer? I keep working there. That's great! It's not my office.
To be clear. I feel I have seen the up in my car. I think it's good to have pictures of powerful women surrounding you behind. Just lay great Danes, you now as a woman, and so I am not at all drawing a parallel between women and dogs like it's just that's. What was in front of your assurance that you were staring at a picture of a great deal further lessons, but also their power, these people their power, but they also of control turning now to make clear what you're always seek gangs, and so when you see that unpeopled its attractive or interesting, merrily great observation, you're dead right, like presumably the public, were, had complete control of Israel on these he had fuckin exotic animals. He had off road vehicles, he hit. You know like he had this compound and he had airplanes. He could fly anywhere. It seemed as if he he was even more powerful than a dictator in many ways. Ok, so that Europe Vice for three years- and you did a lot of great stuff- you produce spaced out, which was a look at space in the people who are obsessed with it
There are many instalment of that. Were there no idea? Ok, I want today to have no more. I like it. I like a different life again there and then you did click print gun into doesn't do things six years. So you'd been twenty five, when you did that so fucking impressive in that got a ton of views and impress, and what not, yet twelve million people watch that and ensures that becomes a pretty. Watershed moment for your career, wise, you I mean I was making no money advice and suddenly I had this hit on my hands and it was my vote moreover, I insisted on having my own voice in it and, as I read, how can I ok leverage this and get some money you mommy guises. They went up company that poached me and it is the verge and they were can already hey me like an adult woman. Let's do this and,
due to my alcoholism and probably pressure to run the show my legs, I'm I'm a director and you know the distant within four months. I was cut was fired a home in areas like absolutely not. We are not interested because you had a lot of opinion like too many opinions I broke a camera on on a shoot. You know it was a technology company that was making great beautiful, stylish videos of iphones. You know, and they fired me, and I just didn't know what to do. I wanted to be a part of media, but I couldn't go back to vice because I had just I have left in this fiery sort of fuck you and I am making money. Bitch is thoroughly good luck with that and a guy literally said to me: you are going to fail, I'm in a laugh at you, and I just act like took that in those moment in time where people really attack you. Yet I was vulnerable, but he was right. I was
it within four months inside and really know what to do next for you having at all any fits of muslim mania after making something so successful man leaving in going to the next place, was your ego hard to bridle. At that moment, I thought that it was eager. I was still somebody that was eager to learn from others really well mentor. I do think it was. Alcoholism I just could not control drinking. It and it's really hard to be productive. Member of the team if your brain isn't working at night now it factor into the next day when I be hung over and so actually really like respecting credit the company for letting me pretty quickly at the time. I was so embarrassed like at another if you guys of urban fired, but it feels like oh yeah, even if you don't want the job, it's just the
actual or why are we don't need you? We break up with you minutes its complete rejection, added intersects with your financial security, which inactivates your safety. Like am I gonna, be ok, I'm an abuse, and so I write about this in the book, all the Uli behind which to buy my dad and about figuring stories on things like that, and it was fired. And I was so humiliated and so embarrassed. I m I'm not going to work again and the next day. My dad had a habit of sending me incredible emails and he said we will prove them wrong. That's really, like and he just said: you're gonna be ok and then two months later I was any room with sheep Evans who's, the head of each be oh docks at the time. You know pitching features. So really quick, though we, how did your dad response? You're dead must have smelled that you are struggling with alcohol and what was his approach to that,
I think he could only offer advice if I asked for a right and he you know he could be a Roma regarding sobriety, but you know, I think he believed in the sea. Good society responds like you, can just provide access to meetings it. You know if the person asks, so he really like he. He stopped inviting me to media and no thank you you now, because I, like Winter Gawker Party or them and got slam fist news like this is not an excuse. Reading it drunken embarrass me right lake. What are you doing? Yeah you know, so I thought we had some boundary scared, good foundries. I will add on welcome your drunkenness in my life, but for the most part really took for me finally Lake, having my own moment of reckoning and calling him in saying, I need to stop drinking, and then he did even twelve step name right so soon.
My dad had this very healthy kind of non codependent way of watching me go through it all, and he just I think, was like oh yeah he's on a path, and I no word ends and when it ends, he'll call me and I'll be there and he's seemingly was so peaceful about that? My aspire to that? If my children ever struggle with it cause, that's really if you're not you know like was not he's, not going to say some magic words to you that are going to make. You want sobriety right gaming. He I had got really drunk at a friend's Engagement party and hit on both the groom to be and the right to be given to me, you're invoke was my stuff and I got disinfected from the wedding Adrian Party were born and got the most brutal email in my inbox and ass. For my invite was an act. My dad s, like Sir I'm having a problem. I am you know,
fired and I'm losing friends quickly, but so what's the deal here, do I give up Alcohol for a week of using the money for your light. Let's go: let's go. Let's hurry this website, I'm givin up for weak. He said you know you're gonna, do it for a month and we're gonna see if your life gets better and drop me off at a couple of meetings and introduce me to some women and just says start this and see how it goes and you liked it was incredible. Ok, so short! Thereafter you get fired. You do end up with that with a home in HBO at the most thrilling moment professionally. So I'm your answer like a really deeply proud, freelancer and Sheila Nevins agreed to give me small development deal when I was twenty five, which would end up becoming thought crimes, but it wasn't like win the development deal. The movie was green, let it was now I had to do the thing I had to make the thing,
and so while there was a huge amount of excitement and I've talked it boiling earlier, pinching HBO, like a big breeds. This jealousy and intensity with other people should know that, but I had to perform. I had to do it the rest on their laurels of it, so I spent I made my first feature thought crimes in six months. And could I just I had two I had to the cannibal cop, which is this guy that was convicted of conspiring to kidnap rape, torture and eat young women. He was being held at a federal penitentiary. I would go visit him trying to get a Cameron and then a judge overturn the conviction and he was set free and he was just like you know. All these networks were vying for his exclusive use. Like you know, the prettiest girl, the ball rolling dont forget about God, and so I have this common deal and I knew
We need to get an interview with him and that I had to forbid him from you know from getting from speaking with any other networks, probably going to offer him money. So, ok, how do I do this? A call him- and I say you need to interview you at your mom's house nieces. You know, but I am not able to do that. I really want to consider my options. You know he turns me down to call my dad and he's a governor now go to show up toy show up there with a camera, and I say I'm you, I'm really sorry to do this, but we need to sit down for an interview now and so we get it and that ends up being what turns into the feature really quick. Yet what your anxiety level woken up. The porch. Are you? Are you actually like because it could go? I mean, if necessary, to do this to any person like walk up and say demand something, let alone a scary per
And well- and he was a cop for a long time slowly. The sun is presumably there's weapons. Yeah words, it's like, I think the how I was raised was to move towards fear and I had a no card at my desk and do something that makes you nervous. Every day, Baja, and so this was a. This was a prime example, but this is what separates you know the boys from the men and so going up there, like us, wrenched in sweat,. But I knew it was. It was going to get me to where I needed to go and make the movie, and so I just sort of like it just it just did it and the interview, and then you have to get someone sign, Hoddan Exclusivity agreement, and so he did this really weird thing where he said. I will do it if you watch a movie with man near monocles, making it an hour by big red fly. So I was like. What's so, you wanted to watch
each beheld documentary film and on us, and I just like I'm as honest as possible in these moments, because I did watch a movie with him cuz I was like okay, like he's not going to touch me, it's going to be fine. I don't know why I'm talking with isn't there isn't really weird thing when you are trying to be a journalist and get a story and seems like a normal wine, but talking to you guys about it, it's almost half the night. You felt like it wasn't a normal ask when he asked. I knew that I needed like here assign the x. It was not a pay for play like I was in office, offering any re you'd over those like ok, look. He there's a theirs genuine like he wants a watch. Nijio film I making HBO film we're gonna talk about it, but as a left that small place in queens- and he listen to everything I do so like he'll- be very mad. Like girl, you know you did this like don't
don't lie about all flogging ill. He thought we were gonna be together now, Let me ask you that was so bad, it's hard! You imagine talking about this. Knowing the person might listen, I recognise that there are clear. Let me ask you something. while you are making the documentary you're, you must have been cognisant on some level that he did think that, and that is obviously great leverage to have in then. Is there any kind of ethical dilemma? Cost there'd be none for me, but I wonder if there would be free who you know that we have. We reached a point of it where it was they uncomfortable merited coitus got up you and me and have built that make me think, allude that you know he. He basically saw my camera. I leave the room and win over into
rubbing my shoulders and there's a girl you're not allowed to do that and he said, don't worry touch my dog like the entire. I immediately left and called my dad, and I said this is what happen he said. Okay, I'm begging you on the phone couple of journalists and we're gonna talk about like source relationships and how to manage it at this unique pressure point because you think I'm six foot, I've, never and intimidated by a source like I don't know how to really guy doing this moment. I want you to be successful, but I want you to have boundaries, and so he put me on a foreigner with someone from the times and then actually encourage Iraqi who is making a low. Jane Jane. You talk about doing lorry relationship, yeah, oh la and so you're just came the greater rights here. Ok, because you want one night when I this story, my mind goes to counter espionage like people that in the CIA, during the old warrior mail
female like they fucked people. There was like a greater objective on the table. The Americans in the Americans and the Russians The water, but that's what my Ngos, as you know, there is only a handful of jobs where this would be you no kind of relevant relevant. How can you say what he told you that advice was basically don't answer his phone calls after nine. You know we have people around you when you guys are filming and be of from with him about what the film is gonna be like right and, ultimately, the film I think is incurred Lee true to the story and representative of you, Gill, as a complicated figure that I dont he should be in jail, but I do think he is boundary problem they mean he was. You know he was hugging, a beheading, his wife and link. Heavens, we fuck the corpse. I mean this was my leg, your normal stuff, I always bring. This kind of stuff is passed them in. So he does was
you know you need to figure out where the boundaries are and have like his parole have like have the numbers in your phone. If you need to use them right, and so you don't kill, ended up eating the movie always hated it with a fiery passion. Fellow trade urine like really sort of lake with tax me very stirring things, has a dude you just gotta jail like yeah. Let's be careful about the text and let you know and f where I was ferrety you, unlike, namely one incorrect thing. That was that's some yeah, so I think that it was a really weird. For re into making features about complicated people, unlike you'll notice, I've never made a film about a man sense. I only deal with women because, like I find women to be really rational and link can deal with the complicated nature of their solves in a way that I think you know Dax not included like
men. Have this weird allowed many Lincoln's like tartar is it is it is now, do you think about any level on you need to employ what say? Actors do like of an act or to play a cereal are they they can approach it like I'm playing a monster, it'll be one dimensional so that they have to find a way to love. Empathize sympathise care about the character there playing is every person does care about themselves right. So it's weird mental gymnastics. I guess, and when you're making a movie d, is there any part of you that has to force yourself to be extra compassionate, maybe in a way that you wouldn't be as just an observer of the story to great question you? I think that every foam and every subject
guides me and how to behave like during the process. Like you know, interacting with sex abuse survivors in such an intense way, it was really giving the power over to them and say: look what do you want to talk about? You know how can we, how can we talk about this in a way that they are not retributory victimized? I'm so sensitivity, lots of eye contact, keeping that the crew they small either is just very targeted decisions and so and working with, like mommy didn't dearest like I want there to be playfulness with that, because we're talking about someone who had their mom murdered, but there is also this element of fantasy with Gypsy arose and, like I wanted the movie, I have learned clients, and you know you just meet this recast of characters who are real life. People and, unlike gypsies, Grandpa came up to me kiss me on the mouth. I would like you to think they talked about leg, deities, ashes, being flush down the toilet,
and I was a kid: don't laugh, dollar or just like sitting in this room, so I think that every film has been almost like a split personality like I'm a different when I started and when I ended and one of the lessons that I can bring to the next films in terms of radical empathy bug, you know playfulness yeah documentaries, I turned the like. A lot are the ones that are open enough to allow that to come in words like while I'm laughing at the murder. Now I am horrified by the murder of other James was brilliant in that way that I said we all are
together. Monica increasingly, I was like you know. You definitely killed all those people. There is no question there and I would certainly have him as a house guess next week. I dont know why I love him. I want to protect him. He reminds me a hermit the frog like, and I would I would lock his door as he stayed in our house like theirs is for me, that's like a big with that. I would like recognise the persons a monster yet have these complicated feelings about the person as if they were apparent or a sibling or something Debbie you're, responding to tunnel switches. I think that there is this weird thing that happened. If your, what a financial crimes dock at all investigated, you know or you're watching crime, and it's like a doll sadness, and this makes it a low wrong, and I think that the directors that you and I both really like it like you're playing with that capturing the Friedman, indirect, all feature easy master class in push pull did, did he didn't he mentioned. I think that it was for me, you never know.
I would encourage iraqi thought, and so you for four years think about how he felt about that family to everyone and every culinary is like you know. How do you feel about chips? he rose and, like you just had a whole movie. You hear what I thought. I'd like I'm not answering, I don't have to answer because I just put it on the movie right. It's like playing with the audience in a good way, but also like there's just like this total in your way of storytelling aid is easy, and I think that we can be created that, like don't think that lack right are there. Things about your life said of help to approach it without the singular goal of judging, and is that a useful skill for a document, Erin yeah? I think that when critics Review may work, they really see the
human and end it. Basically, I'm on a run now I've seen as non judgmental fomenting that's great all can exist in their imperfections in a way that it doesn't feel like I'm making fun of them, and so I think that there is a genuine real tie in a secret society because, like you know, dad is what it's about, but it's really, I think, and not to give him too much credit Billig relieving in such those contact with my father, who was a master in journalism in interviewing, but also lake investigating in searching but identity in like knowing that your past does not predict Europe. President naming met growing up the way there dead really like lead me to this moment. I'm super impressed with your willingness to give so much credit to your dad, because, especially when I was in my twenties and in certainly even at thirty one or thirty one now
we like you know I did it's a very impressive that you can acknowledge what role he played. Did you think so Monica yeah, I do less so than me. Well, maybe again I don't know yeah I it is it is. You do want to take credit for your accomplishments and it's good to be able to see the whole picture, but everything me I'm a director and I get credit for anything and people like Terry Gross, like for the question on nepotism. Unlike what are your feelings about? You know you in relation to him. Did you get here because of hand right, and I think that link now that he's not here? I don't have to be embarrassed about it. Like you know. Yes, he he got in the room, but it's up to me to see how long I can stay in the room, but then people again what you got in the room, that's the whole barrier to entry issue will bid here's the thing that people actually don't like to talk about with nepotism is a multi
layered situation. Self. Let's say one of my two daughters ends of pursuing acting, certainly they'll have an advantage in that they'll probably be able to meet with an agent earlier than a someone who they don't recognize their last name, that's for sure, and that's unfair, but my daughter at six is already been to twenty five sat she's, actually seen how the camera department work. She seen how the script supervisor, what that person does like she's, actually getting this master class education for free, so that's nepotism, but at the same time that's not achieve that. That's aren't you haven't education. The same way, I had an education on how to do press events for General Motors new vehicle launches. No one wants that nobody soon, but I I got a first ten master class and how to throw a fuckin car show. So it's easy to discount the whole thing, but there is actually a ton of education that that's the real gift of nepotism. It's not actually the footmen Dorcas. As to your point, you keep sure it'll get you
bite into one of the parties, but you know your give famous parents- and you know, then you like it's like how to use for the package then do something with it. I think that, like work, ethic is really what we need to teach be borne. Your kids are seeing how hard you guys both work and also like when you worker, you been kind to people, yes and I, my wife and certain in me. Most of the time, in fact that up that's right, naturally, I'd say both of you most of the time: she's not perfect, either for back it's true, most Bergmann, more nicer, more often, ok, so Gypsy rose what a fucking document or how we like counted on the days so that came here. We watch that together, devoured. It yeah and talked about it for six hours after something you as uncomplicated, I have her drivers list,
Upham fridge. Didi. Do you deal away from us? I please stop doing is as much as I loved it. Actually dont remember what help. What was the outcome of a totally forgotten, so Gypsy rose, hop to second degree murder in exchange for ten years on, a state prison charge which means needs you, seventy five percent of it Nicholas but John. You know he never even open my letter requesting an interview he for ever was true and you get a trial. He finally got one and he was sentenced to life in prison. Ah, what people don't understand- and I dont know if it's telegraphed enough in the film ease mentally ill merrily- inform sentences. You look at his police interrogation tapes. Unlike you know, Brian Bessie now rendered ran yes, it is sad to say that from a mean shaken him, it's, like you know, there's so much weird like sex talk between him and the detective,
is lured into this sort of false sense of like oh here telling a story about his girlfriend and, like you know, he was protecting her and like. I don't think he had any awareness that he was like convicting himself through his confession. Like you know, don't talk to cops talk to continental lawyer, I'm sorry leg. You know enjoy law enforcement, I'm glad that their there, but like don't ever talk to a cop without a lawyer. No they don't have that knowledge. Let's be apart. Let's be over in writing running the AL. I tried. I can't help you thought officer, but that's my nature as well. To have that exact same take away. Out of you ever saw the confessions that front line was the most heartbreaking one about the sailors re. Has they convinced nine of these guys to confess to suddenly never did they just kept thrown people imprisonment, horrific most of them mentally disabled in some capacity, but again, at the same time, I forced myself to go fuck others along
murders out there there's a lot of people that need to be taken off the street. There's a lot, that's a hard judicial system. It's completely loaded with too many cases, the everyone's backs against the wall. It's an imperfect system, blah blah also they need to get murderers to confess for our safety and we ve test them with that job. I think, like so many issues in this country and in life, both sides suck am sympathetic to both sides. I am sympathetic to the many people who are not mentally fit to have that interrogation experience You have to be so alpha. Two fucking go through twelve hours with two grown men yelling in your face and not break like almost no person can do that. So it's it's a system designed to create fast confetti, they heavy specific tactics. In order to hear I met with a police officer, former police officer was out. He was known as the ape all who like got people to confess and, like you know, he he was honoured throughout his
tire police, career in New York, for always getting people to confess- and I believed in what was later reported, as they were false confess, send put them in positions, are like pressure points and you know would get them to say things be they wanted to leave its kinda like the central park. Five, and you know, I think that there is a universal, that we think that innocent people do not confess Ryan and is still not her, and he asked it is declared its proven. Its happens all the time you Tom breaking Hey so currently, and it came out what I guess a week or two ago, at the heart of gold inside the USA, gymnastic scandal its recently released right get yeah, so people aren't hip to what this is about. There was for how many years, eighteen years or something twenty
for twenty years there was a trainer slash doctor who worked both that Michigan State University with the gymnastics programme. He worked with dancers around Michigan. He was the: U S, gymnastics team trainer. Minimally. A hundred and fifty six people spoke at the sentencing hearing. That's all that's who spoke didn't. Is there a number on how many victims hundreds and hundreds and hundreds hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, so this guy, first of all, very charismatic, very likeable very, cinnabar. These women, young girls, women, were in this situation where their coaches are, I mean borderline psychotic there as tough as they can be. There's no sympathy for pain, there's no, nothing it's soldier on and then they would go for treatments with this guy. Who was super kind
would cheat Abed? Would let them use their phones or would lead him to all these little tactics to be the good cop? In the scenario- and he would give these quote treatments and all the treatments involved him pudding, fingers in the region was hell, VIC, something right, pelvic adjustments or something and- and I don't even know where to begin- where do you think is best to begin with this? So basically the thumb really talks about grooming behaviors and I think that you we as a culture, have an image of Larry Nasser. As this look don't be weird broken man? That's an orange jumpsuit insults really hard for us to recognise why people would have been fooled by sky and so that the fund was really about lake. You know he was the good guy. He was the nice guy, that's who he presented, as you know, always working in autism circles. His daughter had autism in your hand,
we married always worm wedding ring, see genuinely non threatening like he was a friend of yours and then would participate in this virginal treatment to help you- and you know, I think so. There is just so many layers to that because, like you know, adolescent sexuality, how do I tell somebody might because we don't talk to her parents about sex because it seen as gross rise like wind, someone violates like how are we supposed to talk about that and so Leary NASCAR as a doctor and as a family friend was one of you know. He was genius at setting up his life to get access to people input like really really disturbingly. There is about seventeen instances of lake reporting, two Emma's you where people it is this normal. Is it not normal a key escaped capture so many times
there were so many things. I was thinking about doing it. Of course, one of the more provocative things I'll probably say about it is it's so weird to see. I was such a lack of control over his own behaviour, yet these crazy boundaries, where he I dont know I mean he did manage to do this to happen and on his girls and he didn't alkaloid. It carries out an unlikely calculated purse. He didn't pose penis out and try to have sex with them. He didn't you know like that. Will now granite. There were some cases at his house with the six role which is her, so he did do that, but it doesn't seem at least in the documentary in the treatments quote. He had these kind of rigid boundary. You didn't break, it's like you, don't really see someone out of control, yet that in control that was fascinating to me stay to share their.
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yeah like he wanted to keep the ruse up, and so he was able to stop himself. But here you know not to be too graphic, but, like his other sort of ulterior life that nobody talks about his, he was a collector of help on coffee, and so there was this whole layer of victimizing children through his digital life, where I'm sure you there is no stopping. Have I mean he was found with thirty seven thousand immigrants and say how about when his fucking attorneys is thirty? Six thousand isn't really alive. Jim bears a man sitting may end up being in that room with her. I d sooner like shovelling in the shit of that statement I mean Every single photos, the victimization of a child and someone you know she reached out. She thought the documentary was really smart and nuance and showed like the real journey of its. Like props to her for sitting and so on,
so there, but like it's a reason why it's in the movie, because its ludicrous and it's not appropriate, we cannot lose our way she's. That was so many cases running pedophiles like in in her life that none recital a lot in our lives. One is not like yeah thirty, seven thousand to her was now. It was a challenging documentary to watch in the best way, because I had to constantly check my emotions, because I would go so far. Do you hate that woman and then I would go? No, I do believe in the legal system. People are entitled to a defense, no matter what, in for the system, to work that there has to be a person that takes that case to defend that guy. So I constantly was like fighting. Am I had noticed right? Why didn't tell you about his background at until you got his family life and until you where he grew up, because it was a choice like this is Larry Nassau movie? He doesn't get to have his on movie on each be. Oh, you know who gets to have the move.
Is the women that survived him yeah? What a great and were you worried if you had shown his childhood that he would start becoming more sympathetic? You know that I knew women, we're gonna watch it and I did not want you know. We took a risk and including his instructional videos, which has like his taped sessions with young girls and including his voice, but like that was the extent of because we can talk about the abuse without humanizing. The abuse are, to a certain extent right did now. Did you request an interview with him? Yes, you did in he's obviously said no, nor has it as a general rule of thumb, journalistic Lee. You reach out to everybody and dig it to say now and to be honest, like a lot of people at the jump said no, you know. I think that it's just it's just even for use an audience, murmured so painful to get through select for people to relive and for me to ask them to do that. It's just a choice of you haven't
come on it's it's a genuine inquiry for people of mommy, deadened duress and gymnastics. I own, I don't know it. I think I'm just an put on earth to try to give voice to the voiceless and that something out there resonate with me. It's like like being a kid and being unsure, unlike how to regain your voice, but on experience sexual trauma, and that way, why do you think that film is so difficult to want? I really have been getting that feedback from almost everyone, and I really try to limit the time span. Like it's an eighty minute film. I wanted you to exist in there, but if to feel empowered, why is it so painful and difficult? Well, the fact that the victims in this movie are both young girls, that seems to be were empathy is strongest. That's what makes the cover of the New York Times a day.
Some element, I think another thing is this- is documented by Hall Bloom. I think that it's it's a double tragedy when you ve availed yourself with vulnerability to some pre eminence, is exploited for some reason. Getting tackled in an alley is less troubling to us than us participating in being vulnerable. With someone that's trusted, I e a matter professional. He calls it. The trail bias betray us. very waited, and the examples is doctored was faking. People having cancer was treating them and killed many of them in the for some reason that sets much higher. On the you know the pissed off meter, because we acknowledge that you're exposing yourself to somebody in these girls case for sure relying on a table, and they have just their surrendering kind of a trusted person. Yes
I think that an owner in pain and so he's helping with their pain to a certain extent, so like really confusing them Tyrker psychologically, like Elizabeth Hutchinson, the film is a generous. She should have been made me wonder what pain really. What's, who yeah? I also think it's probably really hard for people to watch because they feel like that really could have been me or that work Molly could be my daughter at any moment like it's easy for that to happen to be in that's not the same thing with Gypsy rose so far away from our concept of lake of Mother enough, like loudly, that's interesting, a man I think yet another layer is. There is no way that you can write the victims off. These are people who have dedicated their lives to make America farewell the Olympics there already sacrificing them's there. You know you can't possibly paint them in
but the more dismissive year, paintbrush one could say like us. Simone Byles, like whatever, deserve anything bad like as a girl whose brought glory to our country and in international. Treasure, yeah through great great pain to her own body like we. We see that we're like of anyone, doesn't deserve this. It's these girls, I think that's part of it, but the thing about abuses. Like like. No one does no one now that's a great story, but because you can't paint anything on as you have just take it in as this is happening and its abuse regardless, but abuse it is it's it's a! U and phenomena. Do you keep thinking, it can't be worse and then yeah it keeps getting worse, but at the same time you could acknowledge its all equally terrible, but we do have these lawyers or work Oh that's, even allow our ability to make it
and very soon I would even yes. Well it's such a good documentary. Ok couple things I thought of one: I was watching it one of the things that really complex in it and that led to a good health the debate between Christian I last night was she had zero sympathy for the people who are friends with Larry who it was brought to their attention that he was abusing the girls and they covered it up for him, and I think it's horrific that they did who's the one woman in particular Cathy Keg, ass, Craig S, clay, guess, who seem particularly offensive in her denial. So this gale. Finally, yet at em ass, you goes to her and says, he's doing something that he shouldn't be doing. She says: that's crazy, not said she brings in all these older gymnast tell her she's, crazy tat. She says
I'll file, the report, but everyone's going to get in trouble and you want everyone to get in trouble and then she finally says no don't file the report. She she talks her out of it right and it's horrendous. It's so horrendous in yet I forced myself imagine that they come to me and say: Monica has been blasting kids, it's complicated because I'm now in possession of info Asian, that's gonna ruin someone's life that I love now, of course, from answer yes, there life deserves to be ruined, but the one thing I was a little sympathetic was is Larry's the piece of shit, and now everyone around Larry is infected by his piece of shit. Ism Cathy might have been a beautiful person outside of that situation. I dont know I ve never met her, but will we could at least is pretty it's possible that she would otherwise is what a great life and now because he's such a viable.
It's a shit she's now in this crazy, unique situation where she is a moral conundrum that she has to choose right or wrong, and she trolls wrong in it's just gee too, is a victim of this ass. All she did the wrong thing, but she's also of victim of this asshole yeah, I mean that's it please elevated way of thinking about it, because it's like putting yourself in the position of you. What do we do when someone confides in us and cause adults protect other adults, and I think that there's always this tendency with young girls. We know with cat Cathy and we're talking about s voice, the generous who came to her and that your confused he's he's helping he's, never done that, and let us like it's happening to my body, I'm telling you and so institutions and individuals will protect people in their community and so that's why it
ass to be handed over as mandatory reporters two investigators yeah. So one of the issues that I find with that argument to you know took to poke Cosmo argument is like now. There was investigating two thousand four in two thousand fourteen, like you know he, he consistently met with police officers about his behaviour and he was able to talk his way out of our Monica. The tapes of these. interviews bodily if a lad and like it will get now. Here we go so now we're back to kind of the point I was making like. I would love the alpha bull dog, mother fucker, to be interrogating that piece of shit. Now I want it now. I want him to go bull shit week where you putting your fingers. That's not a fucking treatment and care of you see lectured on it at something. you know like I wanted somebody called bullshit. I wanted there to be a really strong, convicted investigate to go you're, fulla shit. So that's
all this is so complicated. It's like I did want that person at that more than human beings. Do you and be actively trying to get a false confession. He's he'd be getting a real one? Yes, but I do think it's tricky, those people. I don't know that. I subscribe to the notion that many of those guys know that they're getting a false conviction. I think they they drink. There can lay down clear idea. I think I'll die it out. It's it's by get a confession by any means necessary you as a person who is watch the integrity of the NASCAR tapes media you he is deeply comfortable. He is making jokes even if he were but the alpha guy leg he wouldn't Getting the same guilty signals that he does from typical defendants. Nasser was able to pull the wool over most people because he believed in the lie so deeply. He is a medical professional. This is what he does. He needs to follow procedure, but, like he made every
be around him sure to believe and emboldened the lie- and that's you know, that's that's what made him sort of so beloved cuz. He was charismatic and able to do it and also like that. You just didn't suspect him like here the gymnast that I spoke to him. It was like dancers and other people. They came to his defence, it at the jump because they really he couldn't have done this to night. He told me This is for me helping people. One of the most real moments of my life was, when I was sitting across from Tournay guns are whose a survivor a gymnast in you realize in real time that she had silenced other Jim S, aim to her about the procedure, the yes and, if so, how breaking that. There's the first wave of guilt and trauma from being a victim of his and then a second wave of guilt watches, maybe even surpasses
at that she had silence. So many people and prevented this person from being found out mean. I would encourage everybody to one watch the movie, but to wash gone tsars victim impact statement in its entirety and its on Youtube, and the only one were NASCAR completely law since mine and broke down emotionally because he almost like he wouldn't denies the young woman who came up to do the victim impact statement today. He knew, but she told him I've known you for thirty one and thirty, seven years we loved you like family, because we thought you loved us back. the whole time. I'm waiting to see him admit to himself he's done this, and that was the only moment that I thought, oh god, she got him to failure, leave denial for a minute that is really what's key here.
Or a minute, yeah yeah note in his apology in you know. You know I've spoken to Jacqueline's like when he revert back to his former self of. Like you know, this is Victims ring opportunistic and you know I really was trained to help them. Yes, I mean it's, so he asked the other very you crazy moment, Monica because all these people over the course of four days honour fifty six people say into a microphone. How is actions have impact of their life and for the most part he's in another place I mean he's. In fact I was obsessed with wondering like where does someone go during I get is what does I hated him? I couldn't help, but imagine being him like what, if I was sitting there for four days hearing about hundreds of lives, I ruined? How could what is that expire? it's like? Where do you go mentally to survive? You know it's the hallway
go now and he's in solitary I mean they go to the same place sets its absence of nothing. It's it's. The memories of my life used to be like you are at the end of that he gets too Are you something and it starts off? You think he's kind of copying to it insane sorry and then you start realizing he's doing it in front of you all over again. These three grooming, all the women rain. I always like looking at them, he's turns away from the judge and he starts employing his fuckin superpower scale real time, and I don't even know that he is aware of it so who he is its freaky. Ok, it was our too violated in this. The hardest elements of it for many of the athletes in dealing with it is they
have been demonstrating since they were five or six that their incredibly strong. It's their identity, tat air indomitable, they dont feel pain they can march through anything in so that dissonance between in being a victim and being your identity. As someone who is strong is so powerful and as such it another layer of mine fuck to it. I think it's like they do quality of identity, and my stronger am I victim. How can these two polar opposite? Things exist in one person it in myself and there's just what's it called survivor's complex survivors are going to work out like it's like he did. He did it works for somebody I'll send like you know, I'm so here, and I am you know, I'm you know that didn't happen to me and then girl. It did happen to me and I just whistling in blocking out emotionally
the shame and remorse that I would come into close contact with like interacting with as women, and I really want to be a person in their life. That's like you did nothing wrong, you're thing, yes, but here's. So this is a thing that has come up like three times on here and I haven't refined it enough to make a brilliant about it. But in my own experience I have been dealing with it for, however many years thirty years. In just terms of it's not my fault, that person was a predator, it wasn't giving me relief, no matter how many times someone says: it's not your fault, it wasn't giving me relief and I didn't know why, and it wasn't till I did that four step and ay ay, whereas like what, if I applied that lends to this scenario in which happen for me was going. Oh, I didn't want to be there. I knew I didn't want to be there. My spidey senses were saying this is not right, but I was
read something from that person in that person had leverage over, but I wanted something. That's why I was in the situation once I that to myself I at least isolated white wasn't going away because it doesn't matter how many times people say to me: it's not your fault. I needed to first go like what am I actually feeling guilty about? Oh, I know I'm feeling guilty about cause. I wanted something from the person and I and I wasn't listening to my insights now. I'm at least on that, and then I can forgive myself because I was fuckin, seven years old and seven year olds. Do they make bad decisions, and I made about decision in it's ok like, but I'm gonna jump to that work. Just I was solely a victim like I've, never sought treatment for this in and hopefully the people that guide people through this experience isolate that part. But I just wonder if that's an element, that's missing the. I happened to be lucky The cross streams on like knowledge is power. You activating that understanding like why the shaman
and going away as is deeply a powerful, because it's not white, but most people do is what they push it all down until it doesn't exist but like, but his prayers inside of a scene again, I would be projecting unjust imagining, but if I'm in this militant terrible scenario and then a meeting with somebody who's being kind and loving to me and then there is one part of it, gotta ignore because I do like that kindness and I need it, and I neither is healing he's doing like actual work on nor the body. And so what was scary is like girls would tell me like they felt better after the appointment, yes, and so it was just like I feel better, but so I was a will. Participants, yeah, what's happened, and I think rightly be, which is not your fault, but but if you're that person, I think you have to it's. Ok, to first acknowledged that, like yeah, that that's part of it in that's what so complicated about it, that's what's complicated about never
and it's like they loved him that you know it's not illegal terrible than an alley yeah! That's it that's what they read the director. I mean he groom them in like that. That Michael view them as partners and treated them as equals and like how to be equal with a dummy god like you, how did you ever see noted that reality is everyone's like? But why did you keep going back to the ranch yeah? How could you not all I hate people the same like? Oh, they want money. They will. They defended him at one time. It's like! Yes, they did it wants this tied to their identity. No, no amount of money is worth that. No, no, it's horseshoe, ok, another, I would say the most heart broken. I was during your documentary and, of course its because I'm a dad, I think, is there's one case Monica where the girl her her name is cows, students, Kyle Stevens. She went to her parents and said he's doing this and they were friends with him in May said. No is now
your line stop lying. They cause this rift between her and her dad. He every time they get in a fight. He'd bring up, you need to go, say sorry to Larry than it eventually came out and the dad killed them. And so there is a shot in the thumb and it's the courts in mid hunger for Nick Loud who Kyle Stevens is talking but she's talking about denial of her parents and that they did not believe her and so that the camera slow. Please shift towards the man and so like in your when you're in doings victim impacts him and you can have a support system and you have a person next to you and the grief and trauma that is on her mothers face like I did not believe her, and now my family has been decimated and, like she AEGIS where's it on her face, don't never exists as a family again because they picked Larry NASCAR over their kid.
That's yet another element of the movie that makes it hard to watch. Is that as a parent, you could you could fail at your job of protecting them once you have kids, it's it's. You could fucking rate me for the next eight hours every day for the rest of my life to spare my kid having one thing happened in also in market that the parents were in the room many times while he was doing this sets a part of this. That's very confusing. Is people like Sir, that's part of the procedure like why wouldn't maybe there's a lot of weird stuff in pursuing new eyes and freedom for a doctor to have an ungloved hand inside Europe, the Supreme yeah vagina leg in he he would put a towel over. I mean what I as a person whose heavily research shit. I really thought
of it as an escalation like you're. Talking about that, Larry Nasser was able to exist in this sort of like coated space of boundaries, but I personally think that, like the behaviour served to ramp up, he, it was less about picking the person that was quiet and more about that. He couldn't. He had to pick everybody I mean you're. Talking about these addicting grew like in all directions. One of the girls interviewed the mind fuck of lying on the table. Feeling him enter her vagina in going I dont this. Should it be happening than came up mom their moms, fine so this must not be fine. Yeah, that's at deep, Ard yards horrible. It do you think the mom is awaiting the situation? Or is she thinking it's fine? I think that the parents were us groomed, as the kids were here, and I think that
if you are a gymnastics parent, your train, that these are people in positions of authority there trying to get yet in the right spot, and so it creates and fostering a culture of silence and that I don't get to have a voice in the care of my child. I mean at the curly ranch where a lot of it I Shan T members trained parents were not allowed in than Jim. I mean gymnastics, has a culture that represent our society in that legs, its ambition, its its intent, the it's the american dream it succeeding. You won't break down your body to get where you wanna go to get that one of five spot in the Olympic Games. Output, cotton, yeah. There is a much broader question on the table, while you're watching it, which isn't really explicitly asked, which is, they show an x ray of girls, tibia that have broken their ignoring it, and it just keeps working its way deeper.
Two in splitting it like aren't like a railroad, spite going piece of wood, and you look at that and you go what the fuck is this all about. I mean like ok, there's actual abuse, but there's most certainly by any rational definition there just straight up physical abuse. That is accepted even do the thing, and then I this girl. What is this all about? So someone can say that the best in the world that something is missing anyway. It is their inherent value in that order. That just ego is it is we want to see it as a country that kid's one is eight the parents want to Saint like they see the pure pursuit from the kids point of view and there's something kind of on solely debate that but everyone around that's participating, no one's going, wait. What the Fucker Toby there's a calmed as every four years, and these kids have two fucking.
Moreover, their lives in their bodies permanently. All these things to say: I'm number one I just something about it, doesn't feel I utterly self actualized, even as a pursuit in general, you know as a deeply and fishes person like I got it understood, like you think, you're the lottery ticket winner. Ah you this american exceptionalism that we sort of participate in that it's like you know, all the sweat equity of the last couple years will pay off in this moment and lake. You know in in we know that has to be her delusions, but when you are a part of a community that you know is just incredibly silos, you believe in it, and I think that yeah. I mean. I love that you're having this like what the fuck because like. Why does this matter? Blake as somebody who like like
is desired. Something like that. I got it. I felt a part of it, a part of the rationale rye year within it to foundational e its story, but I'm that's really what were it's fuckin, the Iliad it's it's its greatness, it's the hero, it's that you know the victor. It's all these things like it's all and all that young women don't always get to play. You know. I think that its sewing Annabelle. That gymnastics is like the premier. Sporting mousing was right and you know I think that it is always the dude in the Iliad look were always looking at who is homer, and so I think that it is felt really good for women to be in control of their bodies and be powerful and can do things that nobody else could do. I also said the citadel whinnying feels amazing. Does oh really does psychologically feel incredible new chasing? If, especially, if you
of the operators earn Attic Julie, Le Loup where's that nobody was lover moment Tuesday, champion time is to ensure later furred cheerleading. It sounds as it gets a little lesson press alt one day I was really fun and I at the state championship the second year I had torn my hamstring, and I suppose I know I'm doing it, I'm obviously doing it. I worked so hard this whole time for this last day. I can push through. I guess I do it. I just I wish there was a version where all the self esteem just came from. You should be proud of working hard, pushing through many challenges. But America that's a reward that day, but it was just going to the championship. We don't talk about everyday. She worked. We talk about her getting to the chain. The ancient right and one is a team. I mean drastic so little different, but there's still a team ass backed the your letting everybody down there.
All these he blew worked really hard to get the thing like you there's a lot of pressure yeah. I guess I'm just projecting and everybody in my life what I've gotten the gold medal. It doesn't feel anything up for me. It does for a couple hours or maybe two weeks, bug it being something structural and myself esteem adjust. It hasn't work that way for me improbably. It does work that way for some people say people probably when a gold medal, and they feel markedly better for the rest of your life. That just one be me, I think, there's a validation too your effort more like that. You need that most people, not all people like you, know, writing a book about my father and being able just to actually write it like. When I turned in the fifth and final draft, I said I have no control over how the cells have no control, how its received, in combination with the beautiful book, the knight of the gun, but like this simple act,
finishing an incredible and I was like I need to remind myself examined, get so looped into you know. What's gonna happen like whenever make something inside our people in a watch it up in the air ticket trouble these things. There is all yeah, my favorite, eighth cliche, as were in the shop and work business, not the results, business and if I can keep my are now, I'm I'm generally happy. But if I needed result to validate MA am fact because then I met the Whimsie of the universe, but I feel like that exact. They were. I m now ass. I sit here lake, you just you want the things to pay off. You want the hard work to pay off now. Now. I think
It's a good pursued. If the reason you wanted to work out is to allow you to do it more than, I think, that's a like a noble, intrinsic pursuit weirdly, even though its got an end extrinsic goal, but if, if it just to allow you to keep doing the thing, you love in allowing you to get things green, let that feels like a good motivation, but to be the toast of this town in the Fuckin win an award to me that to seem feels untenable. His far's self esteem goes. The aegis can't be the toes of the town every year. Until though you die you I mean I, you know like many in this room like a deep work, a hologram. I measure my success against what I did last year and I want to get better brighter faster, stronger, but at a certain point like I've, been hospitals twice in the last couple years. I have a chronic, loving conditions like warm. I had crypto genetic org
as pneumonia, which was actually interstitial lung disease dislike I'm not gonna leg in a cool attic with a toilet near me and like some clean about my lung condition, because I worked you must. I understand how that sounds. But Are you a toilet like I just you know, I don't know like I'm interested in other pupils perspectives on it like alcohol ism is so reward end, but it doesn't create a deep sense of fulfilment like we thought it was going to the lives and what are you nuts? the point I making into how do we do? What do we do it? How do we do the work put in the time feel good about it in copy so goal oriented more again, I think in a dream world the process is the resolve like that's what you're after is the engagement you have, while making a movie the connection you have with the people on your crew, the discovery of the story, all that stuff is beautiful and wonderful. All the other stuff
he's just follow reward. If listen, there's no substance to the reward, the sub. This is in the making it that's all on your desk in the heart is a painful. Would that I think I think the goal of most creative people should be like. How do I create the process in a way that I will love it that I'm not killing myself for the result? For me personally, that feels like the healthy approaches like if I can learn to craft this mouse trap in a way that I'm in joint every step, that then of one and not be so fearful about losing, like I watched a video with you like off camera and all about you when we have something her immediate impulses to fear losing an end like now that I have a career as a documentary director Ali that is losing its just like you don't like. I keep adding, gets adding
eggs and like it consumes scarcity complex, I feel like. I won't be hired again right and laying that's just that's an idiot island, the population of war yeah. It's a your book. All that you leave behind a memoir is out currently at the heart of gold inside the USA. Gymnastic scandal is plain, currently HBO and then your next movie. What's that entitled I live, do you know die of you now have the romantic wait to see your take on it, but we watched some shorter, exposing Anna and might even been dateline, and I'm Chris and I were on opposite sides of the argument as like you're allowed to say whatever you want. I'm sorry peoples their own suicides, their responsibility, but maybe I'll have a different take away after watching your ITALY for Wednesday,
why? I designed it in a way, so the first episode is the prosecution and risk, The second episode is the defence and so Mitchell Carter did not get a trial. She opted for a bench trial, which means a judge defy decided her face, and so I want us to serve as her jury. And so it it's just like this lake varies like in the trilogy of the stuff I've made for each Bialik the push Paul the innocent, and you know we have ten thousand of her text messages. So it's a uniquely twenty first century crime because you would go to her aid of mind like win the Sufis happening in real time and is just wild stuff. Well, the thing I saw I would conclude she is a vomited piece of shit like that. There's that's my verdict on her. She is vital,
but I have enough libertarian in me. That's like tough shit. No one can tell you to kill yourself. That's on you at some point. You have their personal responsibility for killing yourself, even if someone's of while piece of shit in your ear but I'll be open to being wrong and, having my opinion, changed on what date, I'll be in July, some lime, wire, re writing mice. My twin sister works in the mental health field and fur birthday. Like we lake, we like, I want to show you like the finnish copy of the project and she got like twenty minutes and she's like you. I can. This is my first thing. I just can't what that's like as a mental health, professional she's like I can that this goes against every in I have in my crafts lake. It is another sort of polemic Davis I dont, know how to talk about my own work, but, like my attitudes towards Michel Carter, really shifted. I learned more about this- is like there's a lot in there. I believe that people, don't
Oh all, right go a lot of my sober friends. Listen to your punkahs scientist was like, and I really want you. Why do you like listing in this and they said like it feels like I'm the one asking the questions like if muse, and so I think that, like as I study other people's styles like it's just like, how do you get people to open, often feel safe? But to me it's a meeting or having a meaning, you and I happen to know how that goes, but other people that come of never men in a meaning and then that this is the first, meaning you like more feeble she's. Gotta means. Yes, I do realise overhead unless you and others in a military meetings. You now also there's open meetings like their labelled in a directory. What are open and one are closed, and many of them are open to say could go any room. for an hour any you don't get to talk I think anybody, especially in like media. It's like no one cares what you have to say the next hour yeah, it's really and lastly, it was ninety minutes. I went to one of my good wishes.
Rapid told him forever. Taiwan has gone up being you know existing and other pupils story. I think, is really help me things and I urge everyone to go to open meetings and like exist in someone else's story, because, like we have a tendency to just you know, just sit inside her own head. Unlike what an uninteresting place to be, you know we're typically destroying yourselves the same thing: you're gonna millionth repetitive, I was listen. The best of episodes are all them agree. Obviously, and I was getting Those sectors, whatever known as interesting, is enabling that Vienna PATH, the madness we can, we can just be what we can be the right one. Erin Esben been so to you ass. I was so delighted when I started connecting all the other dots having met your father and love that Balkan worried about. He was a little baby in a story and now you're here safe on my couch, I feel very relieved.
I love you please come back, I'm sure you'll make aid more movies before were now at this. I wish you luck in Godspeed. Thank you.