Esther Perel is a Belgian author and psychotherapist. Esther sits down with the Armchair Expert to discuss the true definition of eroticism, the unrealistic expectations we put on our partners and how the status of a couple affects the whole family. She finds the current lack of sex education unacceptable and Dax wonders if Esther’s husband is intimidated by her. Esther delineates the complexities of infidelity, she insists we break societal labels and she talks about the residual effect of growing up with parents who survived the Nazi concentration camps.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome welcome welcomed armchair expert, I'm down rather's, I'm joined by modest mouse parallel. I dont think are experts in aid me its introduction. She really does that. However, while people lover over I'm in that list, Esther Pepperrell Astir per all man. She is a psychotherapists by training, yeah she's a couple, a very popular New York Times by selling books, the state of affairs and making in captivity other guests of arts of talked about her she's, an expert and relationships and sexual aren t we, like both those topics. She also has a very exciting podcast called. Where should we begin where she actually does therapy with a couple yeah and you get to hear it and it's been discussed, I bid is almost like a crime episode of podcast such I really like yeah she's incredible. Please enjoy a stir peril
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unique way in my opinion and I'm an attic. So we talk about addiction a lot in here, but at best maybe addictions gonna affect I don't. You know twenty percent the population maybe or we'll talk about, eating disorders me with it. I don't know what that's gonna effect, but affairs cheating wow, that's probably the topic will talk about that will affect the very most amount of people that we really talked about other than maybe certain health disorders. But I don't even think those though this is you put it really well in your TED talk, you said, are infidelity is banned, universally honey say condemned, firstly, condemned and universally practice. First and foremost, euro psychotherapist, you variant in story. You are raised by polish Holocaust survivors in Antwerp, the other invention in Belgium and
in a community of others, holocaust survivors is that right, yes, the anti jewish community in Antwerp, where survivors and refugees from the Nazi Holocaust Louis small light was fifteen thousand people community. It wasn't a big committed. Belgium said come here, oh no! No! No! No! Then there was a presence of Jews in Antwerp for quite a while, because of its being a diamond centre and those actually, many of them were dutch Jews who had come to Belgium. When the situation in HOLLAND became more complicated. Norma parents were accepted as refugees in Belgium for three months all and then they were meant to leave and they had a list of a few other countries that would take them, but they decided to stay so after being in the world for five years they were another five years illegal refugees.
Benjamin really, yes, and so I would imagine in ways during your childhood. I wouldn't know if you would remember at five years old, but at them there obviously kind of is conscious of whose watching so this is before I'm doin. Ok is I came later, but yes, the stories where that can only four. If in, if a policeman came into the shop, is they had a store They run off one time they couldn't even grab me while they would. Really hides until everything seemed clear and they would come back out. So, yes, it was the it it's every Can you hear about today? could be asked your papers at any moment. So you constantly feel watched live a certain kind of life, under the grid? Well, and I would imagine you will develop a justified paranoia like to live with that threat at all times I would have to imagine, would change your worldview and ways I want
say it's behind. I would say that you develop an astute, acute sense of safety in danger, of whose whole and of at you get a very, very sharp sense of people by these answered. Yes, who contrast. We can rely on who you don't, but I think they had already developed those skills in the war in the camps, and my mother also was hidden in the woods for a year and that's where she really developed her animistic threat detector, our heart. You know, you have a statement that is, you observed there that basically, there were two types of people that the people that didn't die and then the people that were reborn yes, but I will give you context it's so we can, we can go to my childhood or we can go to how that also fits. What I can to do later. I wanna go everywhere you're willing to, but when I was writing meeting in captivity, which is a book about relationships, modern love, in which I want
to understand the nature of erotic design and the way that we need to strengthen all our relationships, a dual need for stability and reliability and consistency with our need for change and novelty and growth and adventure. And we do that from the moment we are born. We have to struggle these two fundamental sets of human needs, and in that I want to understand what is the degradation of desire inevitable, what sustains it? What is it and what is its meaning today in modern relationships, because we ve never spoken that much about desire before. And desired also meant owning the wanting, and in that sense, how do you meant in wanting, which is a sense of a likeness meaning hope wishes, claims prerogatives? You know, in the best sense of the word,
a healthy entitlement on your on your living and from there. I thought I'm actually writing a book about sexuality, but it's not a book about sexuality, it's much much bigger than that and its if at all about a rota system and iraqi system, not just in the narrow sexual sense of the word, but in really life force a lifeless, vitality, variant, so stimulation of any kind or its does it involves travel, it's more insistent than that gives you a feeling of liveliness. What's the difference between not being dead and being alive, but the difference between a couple that survives and a couple that drives more a relationship that survives interrelation. That's right what is driving mean, and I thought what better way than to go and ask people who have survived right so and the most literal sense in the most literal sense, and I also went and talked to Jack, my husband and my partner and who works in
Romania sit when you work with victims of torture and political violence, and you see the people are able to come back to life. What is it? What what are the signs that a person is not just not dying and not under constant threat and not vigilant, but that it once again an open to open their shoulder to given receive to welcome people close to them in sight of them to form connections and note of that, and we began to talk about. You know what it means when people are, able to venture out meaning to take risks to play to explore like a child, then you can only do that if you feel a basic sense of safety, then you can go and deal with the unknown, so it is a paradox in a way right. Is there a little bit opposed to each other? Yet one requires the other, so you have to feel safe and secure to be able to venture out and play its about
electric because it to look for the listeners, your removing close already, I thought maybe at the sixty minute marker we would start doing that. But here we are is a hot, but then I went to Antwerp. I went back to my child and I just begin. I said to him. You know when I grew. I remember the and the homes of the people were just filled morbid. They were depressed homes for good reasons. They were places where people did not do air to laugh out loud because when you laugh out loud you are free and and self conscious and you cannot be free and I'm self conscious. If you fear, dread, issuing a state of fear and anxiety. You can translate that directly into sexuality. You cannot from a state of contraction, experience, leisure and fear, is contraction, dredges, contraction and then a lawyer. That's how you mean and tightening the haunting innocent in my computer
did they were. I noticed that there was two different responses to what people had experienced some of the people who did not die and who lived in a state of contraction. They didn't trust, didn't experience much joy, they couldn't really lead. Oh and re entered the world, but did not answer. My question: do you that was motivated out of that it would have been disrespectful for them to be living some boisterous out loud life that they would not be appropriately morning or something is it that or was it but have been irresponsible to let your guard die. It's both. I think it right down for some people, it was survivor, guilt we shouldn't be here celebrating? Why me? Why me why all the others- and they were better than me- and none of the other people of my family, made it a note of that yeah I mean my parents, it's interesting. You know they both where the only survivors of there family and where the young, my mother, was eighteen. When the war started in my father, twenty five, they could have said. Why am I
the only one member came from a family of nine and my father from a family of seven? It's nearly incomprehensible like when you say that to be one, nine family members that survive and has no, but you know that it's it's the big on occasion. I stopped to actually take it in an either. You say why me or you come out, and you say because me I have to make the best of it. I will live life at its fullest because I am here to live all the lives that others didn't live and that is our can a message that is passed on to the children. To you I mean I bet irony is the most respectful way to live that life, but you got when no one else would be to be as joy failed as possible, even if it feels counter intuitive the true way to respect.
Being the one that live would be to have the most joy filled like yes imaginable, it's when you turn tragedy into victory, it's what I do a lot in the work with people who have gone through trauma or sexual abuse is no better vengeance. On the person who hurt you, then to be able to enjoy again yes well, and we have so I'm, as I said, sober also. Sexual abuse survivor a lot of things, but we have this great saying in a way which is in resentments and anger towards people is like drinking poison, hoping your enemy dies. You know, I love that you're losing now twice over this thing. So now the people that were able to flourish and in play it was rooted in eroticism is what you observed. I call it a rat race,
I mean, what's with clearly defined it, so we now because I had an erotic, I think, of arm sex sex. That's very very recent definition of their Acheson Irredentism errors is the most little definition. Is life force its there was the God of love, but it also Riddick means a force of life and in the mystical sense of the word. Its spirit has a spirit
will dimension in which you touch on account of an essence on a sense of alliances, vital with identity, vibrancy, radiance, yeah, ok, the twentieth century narrowed it down to something that is much more a purely sex, because this is what people also experience insects. I would define iraqi system as the antidote to death in its you, because you can have sex and feel nothing near. Women have done that for centuries, you're in Accra, and you can feel erotic and do nothing and feel completely blissfully fulfilled but erotic in. What's the difference between Saxon iraqi system, animals have sex, it's the people,
its nature, it's the instinct, it's the raw material, but its finite iraqi system is infinite. Its is never ending its really sexuality, that is transformed by the human imagination and we, the only ones who can have a full experience, blissful, people orgasm, whatever you want and never touch anybody just because we can imagine it writes that erotic, mind is what gives the politics to six year. Who did you quote? That said, we have imagination, you have a great quote from somewhere the post or yeah. It's one of these is the imagination that is responsible for love, not the other person, That's our fault, leave it to him. Yeah! Ok! So you Grubbin Antwerp is a very unique scenario to grow up in and I'm sure that came with all kinds of pros and cons, and you
who were you immediately drawn to psychology, so I grub up above the shop and I basically sword clothes from the day. I could talk. Ok, it was like a family businesses, they'll store and you all participated in the shop, and the only thing I remember thinking is. I would like to have a profession that I can carry on my back. I don't want a physical thing that you have done your all the time behold into, because I press would talk about the store all the time and we couldn't leave. The store did was this the shop? I think I became interested in psychology because I wanted to for two reasons, it was very good at being the coffee. Dont have a lot of people. I understand, will trust that you and I got it. I didn't I can. If I could connect the dots- and I understood at what you see is always what it is you siblings, even older brother was twelve years. Better than me I'll carried him, I'm very close and who in and I think I became incidents
but did you because I was a troubled teenager as in troubled inside, like I just wanted to understand, feel better about life in about myself and have less was rather melancholic as a teenager. Ok- and I I just you know, began reading in the first things I would read was stuff about education. I was in a very harsh school system is ok. Then we had dinner. I study
six years of latin in lorries of Greek and another tree like to emphasis, and you had no, you know the derivatives around us is unknown attire out of their own. As my my greek at him, you know, but I I was like there must be a better way to go to school. I hated it. How can I read stuff about alternative education? There was the seventys and that's how I began like identity of indication began to tell you that it's not always the material that matters, but that the child actually matters. A child has a psychology. A child has been ever like what are these and from there I began to just read, you know all kinds of things and I met people every time
three days reduce with his, I dont think I was thinking I would become a psychologist, but I was interested in psychology and by the way, at a time when you went to school, it wasn't because you already knew what you wanted to be right. Roger you discover that scan of how I came to the states. I came to Boston to graduate school and nobody had ever come to America to sputter two studies. I got this thing were in Boston. as the college Forest, and then I went to work at the mass mental health, which was a psychiatric hospital of the Harvard Medical system. Ok, as you know, and I could have been a journalist, I could have been a translator they thought I speak many languages. I should be able to be a translator. Yes, but I thought it no. I wanted to be self employed. There had the sense that that matter,
now. Let me ask you a silly question: do you think you're better position to study sexuality as a European in this country, as I find that we are so puritanical miss this huge fear of sexuality, of young people, sexuality of what sex does to people all these things. I feel like we're very, very fear, based in this country, its manifested. If you go to the beach everyone's covered up. You know, there's just all these. I remember going to Germany as a kid there's naked people in the heart, and I thought well. This is much different than on tv. There's nudity right, yet I dont see a bunch. fatherless children running around the none of the things we would fear are happening, Meda. I started quickly realizing o this. This boogeyman sexuality is just that it's a bogeyman, so it doesn't. I wonder if you are positions uniquely too
Do you work here? Come he saw him another I'll. Do it to you in two in two ways? First of all non, not by definition, because I'm european cause. If I take my parents polish background, that was not a very enlightened background. When it comes to sexuality at all, it was actually complete ignorance, but I lived invention right and I lived, and I lived in from the flemish part of Belgium, but I was also francophone and servers very much influence by a french view of relationships of sexuality, of love of gender, all of them that I bring. But I think that that is,
I would say, I typically have always had an outsider point of view. Wherever I am right, I was outside or in Antwerp. I was outside her when I went to study in Israel. I was outside or in person, and I have always because of my parents- background looked for you. No, I dont takes the given narrative as given. Yes, because I think TAT, the general I can see power and I can see systems and I can see truths or or or versions that proliferate as truths, and I think that's more me is that wherever there is a certain way of thinking, There must be something else they must be yet another way. Now, besides that you have a country here, that is, you know, you're the United States often treat surety. It's either titillation and smart, or sanctimonious
very little in the middle, does very little of thoughtful, respectful approach to the broadening of sexuality of human sexuality that isn't falling into one of these two ports, and that is much more, I think, of the pressure we put on young women in this country that they had better choose perfectly to lose their virginity. The person has to be a perfect choice. They have to be in love, it has to happen in a romantic way like ever. The stakes are so high that responsibility for the woman is too to make sure that experience. As you know, the stats are telling us that, Sir, that for more than forty percent of people's first experience here is bad.
That bad by what is a negative. If it's a negative experience, how ok right period, it's not a pleasurable experience rights, and that is very, very high when you compare it to the Europeans. That's ok! No! There! It in Ireland, for example, which is one of the big imperatives that often takes place. You can probably have ten fifteen percent of young people who would say that their first experiences negative and that comes because You have massive ignorance, you have zero sex education. At this moment it is the lowest rate of sex education that United States has had in twenty years, which is crew and whatever there is, is based and abstinence yeah. I know it's. It doesnt work in the sense that the abstinence focus has created a response which, actually you have more Stds them all of the EU and Turkey
developing countries combined. You have honoured pregnant, unwanted pregnancies and two years earlier onset of sexual activity than the liberal. Does that ironic? And it's not done from a place of exploration of connection of relationship of pleasure, of you know it. So it becomes this. You know one thing that you just keep for the one. You love yes and I do think in the absence of education, when people are forced to fill in the blanks themselves. That is where you get a for lack of a better word perverse, earth understanding of something worth gorgeous if no one's explaining it to you in your left, to figure it out on your own, the skies, the limit for what someone could fill in the blanks some eighty cents way that most in points and procedures, sex education at this moment for many young people is porn run, which is not very emblematical witches zirks eyes to see on occasion, but it's a lousy sex said the and the next
thing is that the Americans talk about sex ed rather than talking about sexuality and relationship. Education is what most european countries do really started for in Europe. the Northern Europe, mostly what we started each for we have in school. We could call the week of love, ok and its programme for the four year olds in a programme for the nine year olds in a programme for thirteen seventeen, its developmental and it doesn't talk about disease dysfunction and dangers. It talks about the house. Sometimes you, certain people and you suddenly feel like you want to hold their hand and you enjoy when you spend time with them, and it is an integrated story between where sexuality and relationships are integrated into one narrative. It is it just a bunch of anatomy classes: Ryan slumming. Yes, I often think, like you know too graduating
country, you're gonna, have to take an economics class you're? Gonna? U Empting, all these classes that are not getting pertain to maybe ten percent of the population yet, a hundred percent of us we're gonna, have sex or ninety some percent before we die in. There is little to no education on that also just the interplay of relation. How do you state your needs? How do you frame a message to a partner? How do you communicate? How do you, a valley but your own motives all these things. That should be Europe should leave high school with some sense of how to communicate with one another in a relationship which are inevitably going to find themselves in. There is no you just figured out, have a bunch of partners and they'll go wrong and a bunch of different ways, and hopefully you often paper figure. It out tell me, but of the waste at their most common, to put them to figure it out as they get thank ok so that they don't know what you're doing here has accepted
They don't have to deal with their inhibitions right and then they do something, and then they wake up the next morning and they don't remember what they ve done right and then you ask them Tell me something when you go hiking a when you go to listen to a better when you do whatever do you try to not remember it the next day stuff you like, or do you actually want to? Remember it right so so this is the anxiety people bring yes, it's so dissociated sake. They nothing their bodies there not connected none other than other, where you can t just get through it began. the precious says you have to do it. It's a right of passage. It becomes a marker in your. U growing, not bright, yes and that's the motivation, sometimes, oh, my god, I should have done it by now. I may add in thy my name, friends have done it remained a past. If you had sex. U S, dignity is now. If you dont have sex resting methods, the others, no winning, but the tyrannies always there, yes, obviously, first and foremost, you point out this incredible evolution. That's happened.
Then. The last hundred years, which are marriages, were financial arrangements for most of our history. And so and still are in most parts of the world right. The traditional it's a financial arrangement, the men wasn't, whereas someone found passion. The affair was where someone found passion. Yes, that adultery was the space for love, her love. When marriage was about companionship, family life, economic support and social status, no love belonged somewhere else. We broad love to marriage right now. The primary goal of marriages love or that's in theory, why people are you
he married now, right, not out of some kind of financial arrangements are to bring to properties together in so now, when we have affairs, what are we in search of infidelity has always existed. The interesting thing is this: it has always existed regardless of the model of marriage, but the meaning of it in the way we experience it and the consequences of it have always changed. So let me go back a step you, how I got two infidelity. Once I had written meeting, which was like looking at the dilemmas of desire inside relationships, I thought what happens if this there goes looking elsewhere. I want to continue to track desire. I'm gonna be dissolute detective of design and I'm going to see where what happens when it leaves the house yeah and at ok. I want to write another take of this modern relationships and infidelity is the perfect human drama
because it encompasses everything. It has lies: secrecy, passion, duplicity, deception, possessiveness, passion, jealousy, vengeance, you name, it has just about the entire human drama in one story and if I can capture some of that, then infidelity will be the perfect window to look at all the tensions and the and the aspirations of romantic relationships. At this moment, that's kind of way I picked infidelity, it's not like. I was for a person the interested in in a white people cheek right tat. Why people cheat gives you access to so many important parts of modern relationships, and then I thought it also gives your story of the social structure and a power structure of gender, because this has never been a gender equal proposition. Men have had the licence to cheat practically all over the world with very few consequences, and
because of that people have come in and given all kinds of theories to justify weights in their nature to do so as if it's not in the nature of women. Rhino men are fundamentally different. Some women in that way, and we have no idea because women have really done what they were they ve always done what issued and what was making them feel safe and protected. So we are gonna, be to see what women really want. Only now reigns, and then I thought you know that gives us access to all the states tabs about not only why men she did my women sheet and how they are so different in their motives, but also the nature of a nature or what is male sexuality versus where these females sexuality, a bunch of myth. A lotta myth goes in their love, thoughts that really not found that just get mean so much to say when some one is ok. Men have testosterone that is fuel for love of sexuality and of testosterone till, but that therefore may sexuality.
Is biologically driven. It is uncomplicated unprompted there always up for it always interested always looking for an outlet in but your motion women's a little bit rooted in evolutionary biology in that right, a woman can only happen at best give birth to recognising the record. We had We had an evolutionary biologist sixty something, but you know a man. A man could have two thousand children if he's had, acts as many women. So that's that's kind of the underpinning. Of of that right do that's one loans. stay too, if you dare we, our support. Good bye on running on was born the Swiss Alps in two thousand and ten. They had a radical ideas, zero gravity running, they are so comfortable. It'll, give you the sensation of running on cloud
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point in order the cash card to start saving today, and, of course, when you download cash app and enter the referral code armchair, one word: you'll receive five hours in the cash apples and five dollars to CASA Colombia, Gorge and Non profit organization. My sweet, dear mother, works for trains and sports volunteers, make a difference in the lives of children, Oscar carrots, a true and win. Please download the cash app today. Pretty police yeah sought I just want to get that out there now to add another lens issues I think evolutionary biology is, as is, is essential in as another attribution of what we think about things, but it's not where I focus right. I know when I dont like is when you see men creatures of nature and women are creatures of cycle e mail, sexuality, simple female sexuality, complex male sexuality, always in
who stood, women need conditions. Just right. May sexuality. The unrelated female sexuality into opened on the lattice of emotion filled with seriously this is there any truth. Any of that there is no truth to. I think that is that. Polarized lacking a wide and thereby in here utterly lacks nuance. It's not true right. Let me put it this way in my thinking. Are you sometimes afraid of rejection me always are getting fear of rejection is not psychological or relational assured, and I you sometimes worried about performance now examine like clydesdale start that the animals are man made penis for you know, you're responding to your set to your wishes performance. You know that is released oh. You know, I think, a lot of guys who doesn't go talked about very much, but
a woman can rarely fail to perform a guy. Has a high probability of either not getting erection coming too quickly, others numerous things right that can go wrong. There is a lot of pressure on young now, of course, but I'm saying even something else. What I'm saying is that when we think about performance, we think of it as a physical thing right. I say that the fear of performance is a really should. I think so. Tat made the notion that mail sexuality is not relational. I think that there is a real investment in making men simple and in depriving them actually of a sick of psychology, and of connecting at with their sexuality, and this is a system that we men have set up. So the question where I immediately go do is what wire how're we benefiting from that there must be a benefit. Are you might might? Well, let's just think about it. If we're so simple, I guess it's like when I watch certain husbands play dumb as attack as attack.
I don't understand. I do that. I dont really gets them out of their having to be troubled by anything said, excuse an excuse year, peoples who have worked so simple in a way. It isn't in attempting to get rid of responses, Eighty four actions I mean I'm just wondering what the benefit for men commended craft this system, why? Why did they preferred to have seen so simplistically? I don't think it's only non that have crafted assistant, ok idea, because it has mothers are mothers are the ones that raise most boys in most parts of the world Rice
but also, I think that you know the gender structures that we have and sexism as it is, is it isn't, is an ordeal for everybody, not just for women right. It keeps men very, very constrained and very limited and constantly battling their identity. You know it's, it's actually a daunting there is that much gain in it. That's what so interesting right, you know, but let me go back as in my work is about challenging, received notions that I actually daunting at this assembly that true more that exclusively through or useful, and I do it with infidelity and I do it with masculinity and I do it with sexuality, because I think that we need better ways to think about these things, so that people can
he helped more, that's kind of where it comes down to cause. I work with people, I don't just work with ideas, rights and I try to help them with their conundrums and with their despair. What immediately struck me by watching your TED talk was oh, yes, this is, and this is a great perspective in its a great point of view, because it's from someone that's on either side of the equation, because, generally, when we think about infidelity, we are either evaluating how we would feel if we were unfaithful. Or were evaluating how it view of our partner was unfaithful now neither of those positions are that objective there, both very emotional there very emotional evaluations, rikers, where were we were putting ourselves in one of to facilitate you, also reducing the story to two people thing. Ok, let me ask you this. I view the way you are child of a parent who was
unfaithful or who fell in love with someone else who left are used. Parents got divorced and towards the anything they both had affair, sucking they can be a possibility. You are the child of an illicit love, our how they can be you being the friend That's somebody's been confidingly, knew for weeks so or somebody's weeping on your shoulders. Yes, and then they can be you as one person in the triangle, and you may have been in every role in your life, you may have been the person who was having an affair or cheated the person who has been deceived or the third person in the story, and when you put it together like that, actually have. Ninety percent of the people in most of my origins, is raising their hand. Then one way or another, they ve been affected by an affair, and then you realize that you not talking about a story of two people. Infidelity is family.
Stories, its intergenerational legacies, its secrets that carry across and its societal. It's not just the story of a cheater and pressed and betrayed It's really not a useful frame rights and from then than you start to then that then I can be much more open of You know it's no longer like I'm trying to decide who is good one in who's, the bad one you know who's the victim and whose the perpetrator I look at what happens when there are breaches of trust violations, love stories that emerge in all of this. science ass young people's lives. Men, then you are in touch with humanity you're not just looking for who can you punish now currently in our current culture is still just as frowned upon infidelity manure. It's more so
tell me why? Because you know when men did it in the past, women were very sad, but that's what men do rosebud your same theory of Meda sexuality. Well, you have famously, like you know the Prime minister's funeral in France memoranda we ever in his is his is mistresses with the wife there, both crime, its on tv, everything's, cool right. Definitely, that's not a matter for scandal. No right now, there's something bigger going on the president just die. So what happens? I think today ways worse. Is this it tonight, it's no longer seen as part of a social system. Marriages are not meant to be for that. Of course, this may happen. Men do it more simply because they have less consequences when they do it. Women have less of an opportunity to do it that the risks are much higher did
I don't have divorce those that protect him. They may become ostracised destitute. They may lose their children. It took until the slate seventies for women to even have any of these rights, so infidelity you have to put it. We didn't make an economic and social structure and then why? Today, because today, love. and finding the love and finding the one for a warm up. Many more years, I'm not meeting you at eighteen and twenty eight and thirty, two and thirty five, and I made my soul mate and that saw made is the person with whom I am going to put everything else aside and I can delete my apps and I finally have found you and I'm everything for you and your everything for me because that word everything means very different. When I've had fifteen years of nomads somewhere, I've been sampling around yes was the museum
When it out monogamy used to mean one partner here and now means one partner at a time which is new, yes, but that so that holds that goes in it. So if, if that's the case that exclusivity- is something very different if I don't have to marry in order to have sex for the first time said, I Mary, and I stop having sex with others right or I love you and with the gum committed relation doesn't have to involve. Marriage exclusivity mean something very different when you ve had fifteen years of many partners when you are the first and last, the same word completely different life, so wise it worse today, because it's not meant to happen, because if I found the one, then it's not meant to happen, it's no longer can did it as something that can happen in a relationship and therefore a few betray me future.
Tell me if you lie to me: it's a crisis of identity. It's not just do know it hurts it's. Who am I it wasn't to be both supposed to be my life? That's not what I can't. I didn't wait for ten years to get that I didn't give up on all these other people. For you to do that. To me. You know that humans of outrage about it, the sense of its the ultimate betrayal, and it's the first time in history that people divorce. Because of infidelity. That was never the case. It is the ultimate betrayal. There is no other thing you can do to me, for which I tell you at every minute, get the fuck out get out leave. Now you can be mistreated by somebody who doesn't show up for weeks on end. You can, if somebody who drinks nonstop, nobody says just like that leaf. Well, ok, great! So any new pointed this out, which is we had a transition worthy the most shameful thing that could happen to you in the forties is that you would have gotten divorce step in nowadays. The most shameful thing
do stay with a partner whose cheated on you. It's not in the forties. It seventys the divorce laws. The no for divorce is, is in there. I forgot the exact date number it's late, sixties early. Seventy! Ok! So that that's a big flip, not that that's a radical change that occurred in the past. Marriage was for family. So, if you cheated on me, I was upset, but the family came first right today, the survival of the family depends on one
thing only in the west and that's the happiness of the couple up. Another happy the family. That's priority mainly, I think that's wrong or right. I think it is just as I dont use an anthropologist at her. I can say the same data just it is something I think the relationships that what we look for in our relationships has completely changed. We ve never expected more from our relations than we do now and there's something beautiful about that and when you have it it's a very differently and in the past till death do you apart and if you were miserable he was stuck. It had nowhere to go here, so I dont answer is this good news is that it is an evolution and then it comes with a lot of things. I think the idea that people could actually get out of a marriage is a revolution. It's got settlers built in nine countries. Still, if you
or a female, whose unfaithful you could be looking at jail, timer right, general, yes, turned a burnt, stoned or burned in nine countries. Still yeah, that's pretty severe. Let's go back that identity is. I just want people to recognise the power of identity. That is a thing we will fight most passionately for their things. That could make you mad and a partner in a relationship there inconveniences. He doesn't do this. He does that blah blah blah, but now once we we threaten our own personal identity. This thing we ve created what, if something jeopardizes that you'll see a new level of panic right right, because you know in the past year, identity was something it was assigned to you who you are was defined by where you were born, whose child you were, what milieu Urim and what trade Europe
you didn't you inherited. Yes, it was assigned to you, your community told you who you are it give you your sense of belonging. It gave you the calendar by which you were going to leave the rituals, but which would be the born and die in, and you you'd all the big definitions and all the big decisions were made for you today. You have to fit all of that out on your own in our western secularized world. The burdens of the self are such that we have the freedom and the burden of having to define and to make up our own identity. Is that good? It is it's. This is what I'm saying. As is an anthropologist. It is it so there is something wonderful in being able to have the freedom to define who I am to decide my values to choose my affiliations, my religious homes, all of that, but it comes with a tremendous burn, soaring, Mario around renewal of exile,
giving right you have to constantly note. I make the right decision and at least, if someone else give you the decision, you can only feel so guilty. That's right. You'll have plenty of certainty and no freedom. Now you have massive amount of freedom and massive amount of uncertainty and self that, as we ve gotten more anxious about what our identity is, because we have all this freedom were now kind of spending, another human being to help us to find that may be more than ever before. That's right, that's exactly it acknowledged relationships as religion. Ah, yes, it's because religion used to give you these things before now. It's your partner did find you. When you are in a relationship. Do you lose touch with your friends? I don't know, but
you know that met some people in the area. Ok, never have we expected more from this one relationship and never has there been called a romantic relation and never has that religion should be more isolated. Yeah tell people what were expecting from our partner because it's a great list I would start with. First, we expect what we always expected. So what we wanted was a companion and some economic support and some one to have a family with our children, wit and social status, because you were definitely different. If you were in a family or not in a family right, that's what we want now. We still want all of that, and on top of it I definitely need you to be my best friend, and I need you to be my trusted coffee doubts.
I need you to be my passionate lover dear and I need you to be my intellectual equal and I need you to be my coherent and I need you to be my soul, mate and I need you to help me become the best version of myself settled all order out through the guardian to yeah yeah, mind you, the other person's barely get their own shit together and there are going to somehow at all this very you do. Your life has still need all those things job, but I would argue that the nine side job my own personal taken, the way I say it is we ask one person to give us what once an intact village, and example, ETA community yeah relationship is essential, but it is one relationship, random model of other, very important signal in relation to show you could aggravate those other things. That's up to everyone to agree upon. It can't be
one person to say I'm going to outsource these things. I need your partner has to get on board with that, because if you say ok, I don't need this person be my intellectual equal, so John is gonna, be my intellectual equals. I'm gonna spend some time with John, because he's giving me this that partner needs to be o K. Tat. I owe much jealousy. I welcome that. The hell anyhow yeah. Even I think you have to be confident because we see that you're just outlined the mother. What does it mean I'm jealous about that re? It means that the minute you need to anything elsewhere, it means I'm. But enough to exert exert comes a measure. That's your identity question It becomes a measure of my sufficiency of my of my adequacy, and so it is. It becomes a crisis identity because you want to see yourself as indispensable. Anyone
take any replaceable and everything is the only way you'll feel safe, but I would argue valued or value are valued worthy, the identity model of relationship. If it's one person for everything. The moment you not everything you have a crisis of identity, that's the logic of this model, but I feel a good model that has to change a person going right, but I also do think une you're in charge of those things the individual has to be giving themselves a lot of those things you you can't be asking someone else to give you those feelings were you need? Some of it is partnership, some of its partnership. I agree, but my and self esteem has to be good enough that I'm not reliant on you to provide me with myself steam. I do, I think, that's cancerous you're gonna hear a lot of its birth and funding. Ok, you don't know who you are outside of your relationship
with others. What about when you ve been single for a long period of time? You still want relations in relation to be a human relationships where social animals- you you don't know, will you worse that who you are is about and it's what you are, would you self and who you are with others? That's what I'm saying is I personally want to strive for all these things. You're talking about my social standing, I would strive to handle that I sell now you don't it's a both and you don't want to depend entirely on one person to reflect back to your sense of self worth because its way to vulnerable, but you also dont, have a way of saying I will address my own sense of self suffered by myself, because self worth is a relational expense hence its not just at the thing would yourself. I agree both yes. So in my case I know my laundry list of things that give me self esteem by being observers. Life is only one of those three you there's up there.
A wandering now yet sitting here, talking to you and yet being vulnerable in owning stuff. Publicly is a source of self esteem for me. So you understand, if I was relying on Christian to give me all that that doesn't seem very fair to Christian she's is who would have time to fill someone's entire glass up every day. It's not a realistic expectation awaited with doing it would render relationship a relationship of a child and a mother. Yes- and you know I have a theory on this another. I have little kids, I'm now watching these little girls, I've foreign six year old girls, and I am endlessly at service? I have had this. Were I'm caring for them, and I say to myself: oh this is part. The problem this is so misleading. These girls will grow up in expect that they will find a partner who's. Gonna, do all this stuff unconditionally have no expectations or return, and that's what we're all looking for we're all weirdly
wanting a mom or a dad who just unconditionally loves, as we can be little fucking brats when we want to. We can do all the stuff in yet the arms will always be open, but that's not a realistic expectation in a relationship. Your partner isn't a parent, but I think we all a little bit are looking for. That we're looking for just born and open unconditional. You can do anything in your still
welcome in my lap when that's not Hawaii relationship between two autonomous adult works. That's a fund to see that people have sometimes, but what people really want is that when they do something that it be noticed her that the reality of what people want in relationships from their parents- and we have asked of good many to answer two questions. You know what is something that you would have wanted more often in your family or something that you had wished for an it's. It's not, but I wanted to be. I've never actually heard people talk about. They wanted to be unconditional, of that is on the fantasy eleven in the reality of their life, but they really wanted was to be noticed, was to be seen. Was that if they did do something that it would be appreciated was not to be endlessly criticise or told that it wasn't good enough or that
They could do better all the time. In reality, people actually know that what they want is a very important thing that actually they deserve to get the four year old is a different story, but older, but people missed in their experiences in our was eager attention. Looked most draw my childhood. You could kind of put on a continuum of attention. They either got too little docketed. I wanted to give you a concrete example. Yes, I updated girls with no father, and I updated girls with the perfect father and I dont think either one was that beneficial or eat. They were equally fraught with issues because, because the
one, with no parent with any approval was enough approval in the seeking approval and all that that I don't think that's healthy. On the other hand, so I was raised as a princess who, no matter what she did, that still loved and she could be an asshole indeed never gave her any consequence. I keep being a relation that person, like I'm sorry when european year. This note- yes, I don't like being with you as much. I hate to break it. To my love is condition of my affection, for you is conditional. You have to behave in a certain way and in a relationship I dont want to be it. So it's it's a false unceasing. That's a little bit of a white lie that this unconditional love. It is conditional as it should be. We should have boundaries. We should have expectations. We should have to meet people's needs. We should just flowed through and get unconditional what we should have to earn it in in right. I'm with you I mean I I don't usually go into worth. Conditional acting love is relational and therefore it means that you have to think about the other. It's not just the other farming
over you right in and blowing up your ego. Yes, you know shipping at the altar of you said. That's one thing: it's too much attention too little attention right in being apparent, it's really hard to find that sweet spot words like I'm, giving this child confidence and in a feeling of safety, and yet I am also letting them know you're, not that you used to be a certain way. Nor do we want to be around your truck. That's a hard tightrope to walk to be presumptuous, to think that you'd be interested, but I do think my own past my interest, you a little bit, which is had a very serious girlfriend, a high school we're together for five years three of the years I lived here and she looked back in Detroit and we got
realistic what I'd say, realistic as we both have needs. We both want to cut all people we want to kiss. We were so we I had my first open relationship at twenty years old, maybe even younger. My conclusion, at the end of that relationship, was she loved me every bit as much post her having been with other guy does she did before? I saw no impact on how much she loved me or I loved her. My next relationship, twenty one. She was nineteen, and I said here is my history: I'm bad at this I'd rather not have that expectation, because I, like you and I'd like to be with you, we decided if I dont know what happens. I dont care that was kind of the parameters we were together for nine years and it was an wonderful amazing relationship? The one thing I can own that it was destructive. Was it so maintain a sexual relationship in in a relationship? I think that requires the most work,
the most vulnerable work in all of our fears, are on the table and when you don't have to do that, work to be satiated you well, so I do think it. It definitely destroyed our sex life, but the partnership in the friendship and all that was still wonderful, I'm a hard core attic by nature, and I realized shortly before meeting my wife that I, was using sex adaptively and for the exact same reason I use cocaine or alcohol. I just used to regulate my emotions in I wanted to be monogamous for me. I can't open the door and do at once and they never do it again. I will do it again in six months and I'll do it for months and a month and then I'll do it every single day and then out I'll be a fanatic with it. Just like anything else, because
that's been my experience in relationships, I have a view of monogamy. That's I'm a little critical of it. I think it's trusting that, that's the number one priority in a relationship. When I think of what I want from my wife, I list ten things. That's number two. I would weigh rather have her head oral sex in land, and I didn't know about it and is still present with me and gives me while the time in all my needs are met, I'm just, I think it's a little. I waited in our culture, which is not to say I'm not pro affair, I'm not pro polygamy and pro anything. I just, I think it's it's. It occupies a much bigger. I think you're, just a lot of very insightful thinks you're saying so I was saying before it has become the ultimate betrayal and the question is: why look for for all of these three people didn't go elsewhere. Big women didn't go elsewhere, primarily because they would be punished
so the boundaries were set externally today, you're dealing with the vagaries of the heart. You know, monogamy is no longer an imposition on women. Primarily it's a conviction. It's become part of the romantic ideal and an end. Its monogamy defined primarily a sexual exclusively. It's not defined at the view can define monogamy in many other ways than just this one criteria, and but because it has become a part of our fundamental freedom. I choose you because I'm attracted to you, because we have sex before we ever got together. Even when we are together mean that the order of events has completely turned upside down, so it has become the marker. You know of of who we are you know we used to have sex for reproduction in relationships and we used to have sex. It was a woman's marital duty who cared if she wanted right and he did go get ready,
but if she was into it you know she she did it for him. She did it because it was part of her marital duty, her job, and by the way I still meet young young women in America today. Would that was their religious education and that's what sex is and it just get it over with and make sure that he's got what he needs. He needs it. He needs to get it and you need to give it and it's that entire set of verbs that defines this transaction here and you like it, you don't like it. Nobody cares, then we brought desire into sex and now it's about pleasure and connection. we only need to kids, three kids baby and in the western. That's that's. The only reason to continue is because we like it because it makes us feel good because we enjoy being together, because
Britain has any sense of goods that can connection of intimacy a fund of pleasure of sensuality. All of that now that takes a whole different programme and the house that you, how you stay with that and how you deal with the fact that you may have all kinds of roaming desires. Anything people in the past had less desires, but when you were afraid that you could get pregnant instantly, you're, just in gaol, yardsticks for two weeks were very different needs. Another human nature is fundamentally shifted in annually ostracised permanently from your community. Perhaps you know all of that, you of that They too, if you dare, we are supported by me a medium medium medium me, young dazed, Monica two types of deeds in the world, those that go through the gate and those that go over the fence.
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It's become a real, essential measure of my value of my narcissistic value. You know, am I everything young and am I enough, and if I M, if you do this, it's a sign that I am not an it's too bad, because it makes a lot of people question themselves and go into all kinds of crisis about their own Soforth rather than You know what's going on here, what's going on in this relationship? What's going on, you know your wife and you you're in a different stage. You have kids you. She was different from you, you, if you're in a different state in your men and sex men, certain things for you that it doesn't mean in the same way for other people. I think that's the friend of another thing that we need to ask people is what the six mean for you we're not what do you do and are you getting laid by the six mean for you never means validation, ok, yeah, ok,
is very great like I can. I have friends. I have friends who have gonna prostitutes, and I got that doesn't work, for me is really all I'm looking for is the validation, so the exchange with a prostitute just doesn't work for me that or a strict clubbed isn't whatever makes that's, not I'm not desiring just the physical thing I want. The approval it's interesting. I have lots of friends that they don't that's not what their letter or that's there looking to have a physical experience solely which is interesting, but and as a range of things. That's where did, and once you start to ask that question that it becomes a very it's an endless, an endlessly fascinating conversation. You know: what's the currency, what's the transaction, I mean, I repeat this all the time I dont think sex is just something you do it's a place. You go mentally mentally physically inside yourself with another or others where you go and what you say is where you go is indeed validation. I am
the more the I'm scene. I am liked. I am good I'm desired, I'm I'm attracted people want me to seek my presence here. That's a whole set of things that come through this one channel, yeah, yeah channel. You know no people what they ask you. What what percentage of people she wrote, a new point out, which is greatest, that's almost impossible to get a number on, because what is Cheating is it sex is an oral sex. Is it an emotional affair? Is it sixteen? Is it watching pornography so that? Because of that, we can't really say the numbers are very high, Denham have not necessarily changed as much for men. They have doubled for women. Gap between men and women is very small. It's over those men having sex with that's exactly what I say what you like was it one, woman was servicing five guys. It's the only way the man works out, but you know men don't always go to women.
And organise ought always go to men. We should not forget the. How can grow Gunnar that to you live? We does not necessarily always just who you are attracted to that's true or who you want to have sex with, so it's either does the pool is bigger. But the interesting thing is this: in the past, you didn't have to define what is infidelity. It was kind of clear there was a baby that came out few months a bit earlier. Any didn't resemble you know, but now that we have contraception and Have this whole new shift at the borders where people draw the lines is actually a conversation. It's not like. I can answer this right. It's really people having to this talk about the stuff with each other, and those are
sexual conversations that partners need to her. I had a conversation last night with a group of women, of the kind that you rarely have. I mean really people talk that the level of of of openness. That was remarkable. What one of the things that was interesting is that the vast majority of them had never had this conversations with their partner men. They ve been link for ten and more years with the same person. They have actually never had a conversation about their sexual relationship with each yeah. It's astounding thing there's a few reasons why that's tricky ages, the apex of vulnerability. I think it's a topic that you have learned to be silent about the rest of your life here, yeah it's. So it is there's a couple things I think, there's like there's your earlier this year. The fears we want brings into it, but then I also think there's like for a male in this conventional male way. There's this very thin line between vulnerability in neediness. The balance, the
weird little balance in a sexual relationship is so oh tenuous. That's too bad. I was to write your tract of to one another. You dont, you know like to know. Why tell me, because it's the distinction between an adult relationship in a parental relationship. If you need, then it's more difficult to want. If you need you illicit, caretaking, fewer licit, caretaking, you illicit, muttering right over there, anything anti sexual it, you don't want sex industry really know. Yet is it's not meant to be taking place there now, so that the fine line is to maintain a relationship of adults? Is that people, of course to have needs, but it's a kind of need. The nurse of child, like that elicits a form of caretaking and caretaking, is very loving, but it's not particularly sexy primitive you're different example. Sometimes a man would ask
how was it over her and mostly women, though, if the question is, how was it for you here versus? How was I it when he asks? How was I is asking for reassurance? Ah, that's very different of that's a good one boy you wanted it did. I look cool on my bike. It Kennedy I can be ass, a lady bone Caille hates ear. The first is: how are you re, I'm interested in you. And saw the issue is all about confidence right. Invoking have needs, you know, but it's it's very subtle decision. But every woman knows when she has entered caretaking role, every men, those when he's taken getting an unless it is fetish sized and then people can experience the sex
wherein diaper, but otherwise people just this are two separate relational tracks right there, two different paradigm, we're baroque, because when you bought up your opener do do you have an opinion on open relationships, whether their bided active and may I start by saying I have never thought about these things in terms of open and closed. They might lose like the door. You know it's like it's either a closed door and it's not the way relationships operates. You know and that's where began, to talk about the fact that the whole meaning of monogamy has until massive transformations. You know you're, not monogamous in your memory, ray you're, not monogamous in your this is my fear only monogamous in a portion of your life here and now a people need to negotiate boundaries periods
Dave and share their fantasies with each other to they share their past with each other. That's all part of open and close, so in the end, for me, open is about the openness of the conversation with how honest people with each other. How much are they able to really bring each other into one of the most intimate places that they can and that's you know what we like to quote the ante chamber of their erotic mines, it's a place. That is where more intimate that entering orifices right. You know you, and to those- and there is absolutely nothing happening between these two people on an emotional level. So that's the conversation. People need to have vital
you know the notion of having relationships that are not section exclusive, that I'm monogamous on an emotional level on a commitment of the primacy of the relation, but it doesn't it's a relational contract. It's not just about sexual exclusivity makes a lot of sense, and it's not for everybody at all. Any demands massive again, Darien isn't meet, needs to people who are sovereign people who can decide for themselves and not one person imposing the sun another one right. You have to greatly answers at you. You said in your TED talk, which is treating happens and open relationship. What I'm saying first of all is that people crossing the boundaries has nothing to do with the boundaries they will cross the boundaries of dick and be open loaded moved on this other on that site. Right, transgression isn't, but some seems to be part of relationships period. I do not think that consumption none monogamy is just as a matter of protecting oneself against infidelity. It's not a protection device. It's a philosophy. It's a way of thinking.
About: the meaning of sexuality, demeaning, a freedom inside relationships, the set to produce the centrally of the individual within a relationship of people. That's the concern here. You know if this is not an important, despite of your life than the debts, another negotiation that matters right and it is progressive in the sense that it says there cannot be a one size fits all. That's the more important peace here we need multiple mother's, not if This is the right modern versus that one is that there is a sense to do that relationship. A self determined are determined by the people who are in it since they are no longer prescribed by the social structure. Then you need to think consciously about what that means. What are the implications for you and at what stage of life are you, and maybe this is something that you find very attractive at twenty two,
and not at forty two and then again at sixty two. These things are not static, we're not people who are either this or that you know, and once we create a different ecology for this whole thing than we can have many conversations about the fact that today, since people are free to meet others before they are together, some people also want to experience the we desire or the right to be free inside the relationship and for many people. That makes a lot of sense. They want to create a partnership, and that partnership is not just defined by the sexual exclusivity. It's a much bigger story. Even amazing quote. I wrote it down. I liked it so much he said
There is always someone turning away from their partner towards some one else, but toward a different side of themselves, away from who they ve become I'll. Let you elaborate, I think it was really one of the great discoveries when I wrote the state of affairs in a way tat. I spent ten years about exploring tat work. I mean this is thousands of couples here and abroad, and the one word that people would tell me when I would talk with people who had been unfit for who had strayed and they would say I felt alive. He didn't talk about sex, particularly didn't I filled alive. I feel like a had re connected with. First of all, my will, because, by definition when you straight, you are acting selfishly in for you in for nobody else. You know, and I am not justifying a thing, but I understood what they were trying to tell me it. The power of the transgression of having brought
outside of their own rules, and then, of course, you ask why why? Because many of these people had been fitful for decades, these are not chronic flanders. Why would you risk losing everything for what? What made you do this and why now and that's when they began to hear this line that kept coming back? It's not that I wanted to leave my partner, I'm action. Quite happy in my relationship cannot there's lots of infidelities that have to do with the discontent of a marriage short period, but there's a whole other group of people that community I love my life. I love my partner. We have a great family tat at either end, and then you know it's not that I wanted to leave the person that I am with its that I wanted to leave. Who I had become. I was looking for parts of me that I just had lost and didn't know where they had gone. It was years since I had felt this that wherever it was the specific I had been a mother for all these years, a father, a caregiver, have taken
care of my parents. Have I just felt like I was trapped or like I was lifeless, that's what I mean by the erotic as an antidote to deadness yeah. That's it. That's definition here. This is what they were. Highlighting your mind goes a meeting. Led to my partner, wanted that person They wanted that person more than they wanted me. Knowing that in some cases or maybe often know that your partner wanted a part of them, you know their debts. This thing is valid point because then you know what you need to do when you want to help people phase one if this happens is that I have to acknowledge that I heard you the period they haven't. I regret all. Yes, it's about the remorse and the guilt for hurting the other person. You ve got to acknowledge that face too. If you ask me what was
this about and that's what I understood, that the meaning of the affair is what is at stake and not the details and the sordid facts, because then, of course, it will hurt me still, but its very different, because if you tell me that I can sometimes say I too have had that feeling. I just didn't. Do it right, I didn't give myself the permission or it would never have crossed my mind to hurt you in this way, but the thought that the experience itself of longing of yearning affairs are above betrayal and violation of cost, and they are also about longing and loss and yearning and longing and Lawson yearning for what for intensity, for youth, for a sense of freedom for reconnecting with possibility for four inability to finally step out of one's own choking and all of that and that much better for people to understand about their partner
and suggesting you wanted somebody else, but me yet again on many people littered the going through this right now won't have access to a great there. these are the means by which to pay for that. So I just want to. I really want to double back on it. So asking your partner wide, where you attracted to her. How good was the sacks? Was she better than me? Was he better than me? Did he ever bigger dick all these things? Those are. Do not go down that path now, because it keeps you awake the whole night and you will upset. And you will see miserable anyone help you actually understand. What am I gonna do now in my relations. Are great questions are. Why did this happen? What are you looking for? It is something that you felt there that you just sing not could not bring home. Why do feel that we could not tat? You could not tell me those things. What was it about? You know being with someone who was black, that person that allows you to death? Did you think about us
How did you feel when you came home? You know, because the assumption is, of course, that people are just having a great time. Not often people are having a lot of come complex, contradictory feelings, they feel guilty, they feel ashamed and they feel like it having a divine intervention all at the same time. You know it's it's a bit of a mind. Fuck this whole thing: it's not a simple plot, no yeah, but when I heard you say you're turning towards a difference, I'd have yourself a kind of put into words, something I experience, which was I've seen. Many time said this on here before, but I've seen a lot of people in a we're having a hard time getting any sobriety. Think or when my kid arrives, my wife pregnant. When my kid arrives, I will stay. I will stop goes out there be some more important than me and almost without fail. It actually leads to more drug use, and I never understood that from the
outside. So much until we had kids and I started feeling like. Oh my god, my whole day is about everyone else, and I started feeling I fucking deserve something I Edith Sliver of my life? That's just for me. I found myself having these kind of design to be high again, and I that I hadn't had in ten years- and I was like. Oh I get it. You just feel like you need something for yourself too, tired to send some, never right, because yet what you say is one of the most important things people get when I M not talking about any kind of sex outside of relations were talking more about affairs. Now is attention here at TED. You know what I am interested in, what you say. You know patients, curiosity about you, not just management, ink kind of conversations, interaction
who are you? What are you the stuff that couples neglect their relationships yeah because they become little companies? It that's why I often say it's like: if people took ten percent of the creative energy that they bring into their affairs and they brought them home, their marriages would be doing a lot better yeah, because they can do it, but they don't know anymore how to do it at home. Obviously, the next day go to bed. You know at eight o clock at night the next morning there wake up and they go and they are able to give all of this. They have a motivation, and the question is: why is that division seeped out of your relationship? Why can you put such attention there? You can get all backed up. Forget you, you know an and yet you come home and you like a shell. Well, here's what we're fine to be so heartbreaking,
stop divorce. I now have enough friends that are age that have gotten divorced and I now look at what their life shit, what shape it takes on. So in many of these cases of my friends, you know the dad has the kids half the week and then the mom has the other half the week and I'll look at that and I'll go. Isn't it heartbreaking that they had to separate so that each person could get three and a half days of their own life back in that they couldn't have just said we got to figure out they get a day or two of our life back within this like now that it takes splitting having get their back in that's heartbreaking in that that's what you're up a gets like you have to prioritize it or you'll, get it, but it'll be waking up in the house without your kids half the time. I think it's very interesting observation
now they can give that time to some one else. Each of those people can give three and a half days of their weak to some other person that didn't build all that with them and that person receive that yet the poor partner. That was never an option in its it's, because I think in many of these cases had those people had three days to themselves. The could have carried all right, but what it points out for me is there is enormous conventionality conformity or many people's marital relations. a desert? It's an amazing thing in the age of entrepreneurship and people, rethinking and disrupting everything. This is one organisation, one institution where there is not enough creativity and every such pressure on not changing anything men. If you try to do anything a little bit different it people were instantly wanted defined, it is well, it's like your question
openness is, if you know what category are you and you know when you? Where did you position uses as if, as if these things are so said, will not win allowing people to explore of take a month and do three yesterday's and see what happens you All right, you hit family vacations, who says you have to go further on vacation, withdrew screaming, gets in the back of a fire. You know a good friend of mine said that's vacation, its parenting and a different setting in it's funny, because you feel a little bit like you're being a bad pair. If you were to carve out that time, but I would argue the option is divorce, then. Is that a better parenting? It's an issue of the current Zeit gazed around parenting and by the way it never was called parenting. It was called parenthood. It wasn't identity, not a verb.
You were apparent, you didn't do parenting, so here's the thing that I used to say about sexuality, but I think it's true on a broad sense. If you need a happy couple to have an intact family, then what does the copper need to do? It really needs to redirect some of the energy away from family and children to themselves had to do it without massive amounts of guilt to do it, because they actually know that the survival of the family will depend on their ability to redirect what I called the erratic energy to the relationship. Where does the erratic energy, the kids, get all kinds of new activities? They're the same old, the kids get to where all kinds of new clothes, the adult symbols, the kids, get the
It is to play dates, and you know the adults. Gonna dates for their own averse render birthdays new games generates new. I really machination curiosity, playfulness novelty exploration, discovery all the stuff that fuels the erotic. That makes you feel alive and energized is all deflected to the children and if you don't bring some of that back, the couple become just an organization unit that spends ninety percent of its time. Talking about management, yes, and then they look at each other, and they just say you know with that that connected we're, not intimate. We never talk, you know who are you and they talk with their friends when they finally go out. They talk with their friends and a fascinating people, and then they go into the car and they talk about who speaking up Johnny tomorrow morning
and they become bored with each other and descent on on reset sin, and then you are completely predisposed to the kindness of strangers. It just is one step of things that go. You can literally seat on, for you know you don't want to have sex, have it for your kids, like that, if you think you know on the long list of what they need, you should ask couple time should feature of one of the things that your children need. Well, I, like the analogy of when you're on the airplane. They tell you put your mouse gone before you put your kids mask on, so I think in that way, you're doing your kids a favour by making your relationship as good as possible like in in a again, it's like sir. Pray sobriety, giving number one it's gotta be above family, because without writing there is no Pham Correct,
feels counter intuitive, but without sobriety. First, there's nothing else! For us. This is a very interesting thing. At this moment, you have never seen a generation of parents that fears more guilty when it takes time for itself can't find babysitters, because nobody is good enough doesn't leave. The house has taken two years before they ever had a night away. Men, it is really the hierarchy has changed it to the child, is an unprecedented charts and transitory. That has reached an ape so fully and it is really crippling to the couples. Yours oh I refer is. I think this the judgment on parents from other parent, it's the new steps of the church. I could not agree more, there's so much shaming going on in there's this again like religion, this
spurious or erroneous idea that there's perfection to be attained, which there's not they're just aversion. You know you can try to be good as you can be, but there's no perfect you. Unless there is, this combination between people have never had so many aspirations and then so often feel so bad about themselves. Right. today. There are also doing a sling much more out loud now. Grace My family vacation is there for you to judge its on Instagram. It's on twitter and all this stuff, so people foreseen sections of your life that they wouldn't have normally seen. It's not true. What could I see? The steps of the church is because there has always been the central glare of any village. Anyway, you go in Europe, there is a central square and in that central square you saw everybody and you knew exactly what was going on in every neighbour's house are, so its people were always judged. They were held accountable. You know you, you
here, every syllable, fight in the neighbor's house right. So I think, actually you have more of an ability these days, while you have more of an ability to hide, and while you, your friends, can give arming of your friends divorced and you didn't even seed coming now sure sure of her views. What what yeah, ok, yeah that was and impossible. You know that is incredible. That people could live so ice. They did that. You don't even know that that your friends are on the brink. That is completely new the same time because you can be so isolated. People are pouring out everything into the public square yeah. I've had not everything. Only the goods, curated version says reacted version. I have never seen a perfect marriage therapies for thirty five years are working with couples. I have never seen a perfect marriage and I would like that we separate these.
That's my friend, Terry Real, caused the cycle of harmony and disharmony and repair. That's what relationships are right. You connect your disconnect. You reconnect, he ain't gonna be patient during that, doesn't Lange is doing they, hopefully, with the good sense of humour it it's a. It will be very interesting to see where this is taking the future of relationships. The a big paradigm shift. To be honest, I think, there's gonna be be a re evaluating your scene, the numbers in New York, women get married. You don't have the rate they were getting married in the sixties. You know people choosing to marry for the reasons you stated earlier, like that's all that stuff is going to create a bunch of change, that'll be pretty fascinating. Now I went up really quick. Your ear podcast, where shall we begin, is really me in that you're doing therapy you're doing couples therapy in your record, it in
there's something some curious about a that's so neat that were allowed to experience that without having genome being able to book a session with you, that's really interesting. How does come about how to how does a couple agree to be on the podcast? They are not my patience. I do not mix the metaphor. Stays are people who applied to Amazon, audible and day requested to be under broadcast. They come and they have a trio recession with me in my office, like I do all my first initial consultations, Yasser three hours or, and then I as if I was doing a training tape actually for other therapy stay explain why I do what I do what I was thinking process of the two that there are fewer process? If you are, then it is exactly how I would do it if it was preparing a tape for clinical conference, where I would
teach my work, so I wonder when you, when you reflecting back on it, how much of it is just like there was some intuitive stuff some stuff once lots? Ok, because I, where I work with an approach much more than with the method, ok- and I have a way of thinking- I have a way of connecting the dots and I have a certain with going. I'm linear. When I try to understand what is going on here. There is, of course, many decades of train and the reason and understandings that our inside, but I'm not following a protocol, I'm a little bit like a tailor, and I do fittings. No two sessions are the same. Are nowhere inviting you to enter into the couples therapy. I have another couple in a way that you never have you ve met. This is everything that you never heard about this couple of friends of yours. I didn't tell you for years, yet you would actually be hearing. I would imagine
that's so comforting to hear that other people are struggling in the way we all struggle its papers. They, on the one hand it they ve, never never been there. They ve never gone into backstage of another couple. They ve never seen what happens behind closed doors, and here they are, and at the same time sometimes I feel like it's almost uncomfortably like during somebody else. What's been described is more like a crime show investigation which is really fascinating, but you're right, the only glimpses we get our it, hopefully a very well written movie that feels real amounts about as good a glimpse as we get and other people's relationship That's that's exactly what it is you listening so close to the details of another relationship, and you actually see that you are in front of your own mirror yours, it's called. Where should we begin ass? We have three seasons, pleasantries coming out very soon. Look. I have always thought that if I could find a way to let people
here. What happens in this room? I could teach in reach. So many more people, and now we ve reached millions of them worldwide and it that this dream come true. No one's teaching, you anything the second. You further teach me something about me. I get defensive, but if I can just observe you grow, I now and see the similarities, and I can try things that are working for you and I'm not really on trial. There there's some comfort in that it that's one of the more beautiful things he said, even when they listen to episode that nothing to do with things that have gone on in their life this in every episode. There is something that I could take for myself, even when the circumstances were completely different. The auditing that has really for me phenomenon is that we know glad thanks to her or genetic said, more than forty percent of the listeners, our men, all those wonderful that is fantastic. I can't get any man, the wheelers
this is all I lament it's. Ok, so not my have less lest you questions in there just curiosities, since you do individual therapy, have you ever fallen in love with a patient and you can't lying now. I've actually never fallen in love. We decline by not mean like did something just found yourself going like, while I think I'm in love with no. No, no I've never had that explicit, so intimate. But the experience I have is an circle. I'm glad we found when another right for you, and I know you have changed me as much as you may think. I have you are it's in that way. I felt very honor, but you ve never been confused by their female.
oh, no, no, no! No it's it's very! You know I feel you know when there's a fit, which is the most important thing for good therapy. I really needs to be a fit between the client in the dervish and you oh, that it's a good fit, it becomes artful. And then you know that when you ve changed somebody's life and you ve really made a difference but the the same way. You know that the change yours fingers they trusted you because they open themselves up to you because they shared with you things. They allowed you in it. It's the mutually tee. The depth of that reciprocity is really very moving. It's like a creative partnership yeah, and do you ever feel the deep responsible,
because I've had this experience, while sponsoring guys getting sober, I'm in party on to them this information and as I'm doing it, I'm also telling myself, like you, got to walk the walk like you're you're you're, asking this person who trust you to try this thing you had better be doing it in your life it. It's help me totally agenda that experience that I have all the time as a ten percent, as in other sectors too mean I go home and I say: you'd feel fraudulent of hearing rising someone to communicate with their partner and then you go home and you just deciding whether now get right. Then I said to my fire said: you know SEC. Where are we yeah sure? So? Yes, it's a beautiful way of actually creating accountability. No doubt you are no doubt, but I will tell you something though it's it's an interesting question, because I would say that some of my best work days,
Indeed, when I felt completely down, then why are you wearing? That is I mean I have made. You run merrily touch with the suffering, our moral tunnel, the essence of life and those the year, and I am less guarded myself and I have the guards, and that is not always when I am actually holding myself by the standards that I tried who acquire your way to others, it so Sundays when actually feel like. I have nothing to give you, and you know I have just had a big fight myself, for you. Don't have just had a spot with a kid at them like you know, and I'm thinking or what you know what they say about agreement. You know when I don't feel like an end. Yet those are the days when sometimes I feel like I'm the most able to offer myself to others Ah so that my last one question which you just kind of touch, I was: is it intimidating? God bless Jack it intimidating to marry Esther peril. Anyway, I've been to get a thirty five year. Thirty, five!
year after year. Oh wow, that's quite a number! No, but I'm a stubborn was several from you know when she was twenty two and then when she was thirty, so it divorce. You know I'm a regular person, it said I know, but I could see it. Let's say you're on the single scene. Yes, for whatever reason Jack he's had enough splits, you're on the single scene. We me your attractive you're funny, and then I find you're, a relationship that I have to say that I will be like that. We have a friend whose mother teaches tantric sex and I said to her. You know I might keep that quite for a while just doing you as the guy. If I met a beautiful, beautiful woman and she said by the way in my mom teaches tendering sex, I really am to intimidated. I dont know how to have tantric sex. I'm sure your expectations are very high into something that comes out later in the relations that this is where you come from.
Here's wondered like yeah if it would disappear an intimidating thing that our man, this persons, a relationship therapist, I'm gonna, have to be like perfect or she'll know when I'm not being perfect or they'll, be an expectation that I too will have to. You know really walk the walk, but it sounds like checked him. He didn't have that fear or you weren't so regarded at the time thirty five years ago, not definitely eminence guarded. No, I was I was a young girl not done square. Yet. I think that this is a question that would be very good to ask even to my son's it's like when you asked when they are asked that good
for them. This is my mother, yes, and he would say you know she's. My wife is my partner, and that implies when I do this, but I do, but he sees the fruit that the three sixty, so you don't at, but if you're on the street or if it I mean and people come to tell me- you know they recommend you change. You know you help me, I you would really there at an important moment. Men. All you feel is, thankfully sake. It's so gratifying here to do something for which you know that I didn't sell Coca COLA cigarette size. I sell you know you as I sometimes for for life, and you tell me that this was helpful and I feel like I'm relevant and feeling relevant is a wonderful feeling doing something that has social value that his purpose. I didn't I'm I'm it's not something that I was looking for, but it is part of my
profession and it is one of the great things about my profession. I dont have to introduce purpose. It's just part and parcel of it yeah. You know you. Therefore you can do this until your mind checks out yeah. Why? I love you, I think you're fantastic, really absorb happy. You came. I can't I want you to just tell us your last line of your TED talk as I thought that it hit. We watched it in bed, lesson about my wife and I in she went as the last line. I waited it's a line that I once came up with when one of the magazines asked me about my relationship, which I talk very little about because it involves another person who has not done
I need to talk about things. I remember very clearly where I see no second line. When you see no exactly the place you were when you said it offers an. I just said: look today in the west, most of us are gonna have to a tree marriages or adult relationships in our lifetime, and some of us are gonna. Do it with the same person, I probably have been jack in three different ways, and it just felt very clear, and that line then became such a hopeful line when people would come to me, particularly in the aftermath of the crisis of an affair, where I would say your first marriage. Maybe over, would you like to have a second one with each other? I like it so sweet, it's also subversive. We provide
Let go of trying to get back the thing you had an let's create something new, because there is really no going back to what you had. All we got is correct. We got a more that we do not accept that and now we can go forward and some other direction as well. Thank you might supplies what a pleasure oh- and I also just want to say that you have a online workshop called red kindling desire it's a stair peril that come and what weakening desire is, is basically me taking the particularly meeting in captivity and saying: ok, you read it now. Let me take you and tell you what you can do action action can listen to it alone or would you partner and I take you to a whole series of exercises, and so you can put it into practice and we all want to keep to this the flame going one way or another, and this is one way that Ireland tribute to help you in a cheap, the flame. Let's
great, thank you so much. I sure we get to talk again, maybe Chris and I will come on with code names and to your podcasting. You analyze us that would be fantastic by default. Thank you, and now my favorite part of the show the fact check, with my soul maiden Monica bad men the year of the facts daily. Didn't. I just learn that Song Bonnet No, the song the year of the care still down, I'm so impressed that that gentleman tackled the song entitled the year that import off. It's almost impossible. Well, why gorgeous? Let's workshop this? we're friends, hey Monica, what's up been working on a new song, I think you're gonna love. Oh, how long is this going to take him?
then all of laundry. Oh, I just want to drop title of our. I it's called it's called the year of the rat. Oh ok, sounds cool know about rats are a little bit off, putting the well up to suggestions made. Maybe the year the dog that's a little, please Shea August of another door the year the rabbit now that sums to haunt the year the cat you know what's funny is out of all those. That's the title. I like the lease yet occasion yet way other here song about the year, the dog, but not the year, of the let no, although I don't like rats of no, we don't like about their life's, seem very interesting to me. I know what the life of a dog and cat is like. I don't know what a rat's doing this you do. Rather too we hold their cooking.
May I read tattooing? Yes, also anyways. I was about to tell you that I invented something: ok, ok, I fancy myself an inventor. I've, never really brought anything to market or even a prototype, but I still like to offer my one than I thought was a billion our idea. I've told you about a toothbrush that has your birth control pill built into the house, that wake as people always remember, to bring their toothbrush places run. Then you have to hold your toothbrush in the morning a room brush their teeth in the morning and then you would just remember to click one out, yeah yeah, I feel you know. Our idea is pretty good. I dont know that everyone remembers to bring their toothbrush everywhere. Ok, we'll just forget about that, but you do user toothbrush every morning right, I've that yeah, of course yeah. So I keep mine in my purse. You're burning at all. Ok, so that If, for some reason, I happened to stay the night out or something unplanned, I have it with me. If it wasn't my tooth brush, I I wouldn't have it with me:
at my house, in my tooth for alternatives. So great, so I'm glad we're doing a little priority. Also about this, you, my invention, will come to toothbrushes, one you keeping your purse and when you keep it, you know with your your sink. You have two sets of birth control. You can't because insurance will not cover that you can only get one pack a month. Well, I wouldn't ever them stuff to work out, but ok, that's and even my invention. That's a very old invent all that's about twenty five years old I should have been a billion are, may sit, have come to me twenty five years ago. Ok, market research, that's what I was looking for locate. So I clear my through In the morning when I'm really doing is I monk, I'm Clary my lungs outright, and I have found that there is a certain frequency that helps me. Do that you ve probably heard me: do it around the house right now and I I got my. I have now added that fact.
Right in there's a certain frequency that it'll just little jostle everything loose. So I e my invention now is a little arm chair packing put on that would have vibrations. Of course we have to monkey with a lot of different frequencies, a figure what rattles loose ah mucus in your lungs carrying there is an all out. It would just be a sonic vibration. You put on your lungs while you have a cold and it would use break it off. Think about. Ok, that's better than taken a pill right! You don't wrestle with a lotta chest congestion. So it's not as important. That was my how many people do. We think this fact. I think a lot millions of people yeah, and so you just put on this little chess thing
I am in the morning and it just has a few different frequencies to tackle different types of mucus on your Sylvia and then you're completely cleared out. How does it get inside and break it out of the sound waves penetrate just like us? A saw us on a grand would all we just need a week of like trying different frequencies and we can even tested on me I'll go like oh yeah everything some wide open now tat I like to get a doctor and war broke out. What will interview a few? Do you wanna be warm rate, Torbert, helpful and ordered or Sancho he may be, could help me selvas think we had a deal. We will see an honor something here, something fun, so my mother in law ex me this morning to say that she worked with doktor topple when you install pacemakers and he was a cardiologist at you and that's crazy- what a tiny little worldwide than any other pester around
she's was so fascinating. So well we got around here. Don't you try, mile to when she would give the real fold smile like, if she'd actually be laughing sincerely just an adorable smile. Tat too, is wonderful. Ok, so you said addiction affects maybe twenty percent of people. Nineteen point: seven million american adult each twelve, an older battle, the substance use disorder into them. in seventeen directive ass man? Would you say how many twenty twelve nineteen point? Seven? So twenty million dollar thirty million be like seven percent, but I just read a different statistic: our I don't think, as I had a Airbus out, I believe you. I believe that the site said it. I believe you read it. I also owe independently saw something couple days ago from somewhere reputable that had that rate at like eighteen per cent for addiction and certainly a very hard thing for them to determine
PS for sure about thirty, eight percent of adults and two thousand seventeen battled in illicit drug use disorder. Although of those Alex Leah, if its yeah that's true yeah, so we can Polly assume that the majority of the rest is outlaw for exercise addiction. I wonder if they are, including no substance used account. I think that's low far as people who do you think people with alcohol issues percent. Will I assume these are people who have sought treatment, not people who are just addicted, with
no way to know that I guess that's privateers swing the two numbers you and I read that: how could that year person I've ever known that but people they could take a group of Pew Research, could do a group of ten thousand people and actually interview them and asked them they're all call consumption than they could determine whether they thought that was addicted. Verna yeah, but it does not necessarily true. One person's amount. Is not the same as another person's amount for whether or not their abuse saying right right yeah, so it seems impossible to get a real number. I guess I think you could get a sense of how many people are overcome. You mean you're asking like how many drinks are weak, do you drink and they say if a night and then on the weakens twelve, that's probably an unhealthy yeah. You know level of drinking beer but far out. Another person
maybe has two drinks a night but needs to have two drinks a night. That's still addictive and probably negative, and I don't know I just don't know. She said that you can't normally experience pleasure if you are in a state of fear to be interesting and may be untrue, because I feel like people get like titillated by air, some people young. Will these people who love horror movies? Obviously that's trail. I think there is there when people have affairs, I think there's some thing about the fact that its solidarity, that is part of the attraction,
ah ha people like that, like a little bit of danger, the heightened stakes of it. All yeah yeah sure owner she meant something different. Maybe I wonder is people of rape fantasies you now bear and I guess, if they coordinated with their partners kind of like I'm, going to walk down the at this exact time in you pretend to be an assailant. Obviously, that's gonna be mixing, fear and pleasure. Definitely yeah I mean I didn't. She probably means that not in a fetish way, exemptions that aren't they manage. Yes, she produced means, if your fear for your safety right but I guess that's what I mean like I don't mean and like a fetish way, I think. Well, maybe it's still a fetish if in in affairs, to have that heightened thing and like it, I don't know, I just think that's kind of com,
the affair thing those so, yes, there would be fear associated with your partner, catching you but woot who, if you were with the person you're having an affair with you, wouldn't be afraid that that person was goin to do anything. Negative harmful, would your fear be just about some other extraneous outside person and not the actual person you're. Join the pleasure with here is that the did the dilemma asian? Maybe it would make me, maybe I don't know I don't know. I've been sweating a lot of notice lately from my butt ex wisely, like I've been, you know, I wake up in the middle of the night. The peace. Often them noticed that I'm my boxers shorts, which I sleep in I'm sweaty. Are you sure you didn't see? I'm positive. It's definitely perspiration
from my butt cheeks and I'm just wondering what's going on, what's gotten hot you, but I have the IRAN in. There is really no reason for it and it feels knew less six. Months is a new chapter of how they are having a hormonal shift. Maybe I'm had, like behalf flashes menopause, Well, just any kind of shift can cause that, like I get night sweats before my period, yeah all the new swept through your garments. Why not all the way through not soaked when I wake up well, I'm sweaty yeah. I don't normally have I'm not soaked either in. Let me just tell you the level of water. That's involved. Can what so when I walked to the bathroom, and I returned there was enough moisture in the box or Panny to make them cool now, but they're. Not
went to the touch after that walk, that's the level but they're, not you couldn't bring them out they if he touched it was wept. Don't know that I described as well. No no noise visit sticky, that's a great way to think about. The other is a little adhesion from the perspiration and then again by the time of peat and walked back that adhesions gone, and now the box repair has dropped SK considerably in temperature. Ok, I think that here about to stay a period, the poor man's cause swear darker K. Let me know few p vulgar casino Abe you have. If you paid, I found out thanks to rumours. Owners are wonderful harm, cherry that I could have spinal tumors yeah attention, all armchairs, please don't suggest Monica.
Can a medical condition she do not do so, because I need to know things what, if that person saved my life or another person saved my life you'll be happy about that. Maybe of forests are so she's a that it's the lowest rate of sex. Add that the? U S has had in twenty years. At present, only twenty states require that sex and HIV education be quote medically, factually or technically accurate, oh boy, I'm now what the hell. Meanwhile, the definition of, what's quote medically accurate, can vary by state dwell. Some safe may require approval of the curriculum by the Department of Health. Other states allow materials to be distributed that are based on information from public sources that are feared by the medical industry. The lack of a streamlined process can lead to the distribution of incorrect information, health line and sexuality
information and education. Council of the United States and organisations dedicated to promoting sexual education conducted a server that looked at the state of sexual help in the U S in our survey, which pulled more than a thousand Americans, only twelve percent of respondents sixty years old and older, receive some form of sexual education. Meanwhile, only thirty three percent of people between eighteen and twenty nine years old have reported having any. Today thirty five states and the district Colombia also allow for parents to opt out of having their children participate in sex ed. So it's not a great data. There is now no thanks. Now I guess I personally donors to everyone's crazy fear about talking to children about sex. You can watch and animal show with them. They see two lions fucking. They have no problem with it. They get it. It's no big deal
just because us humans are walking by people. It's an issue. Ira stem everyone's embarrassment or timidity. They did their dissent arrested and shamed and embarrassed to talk about maybe they're afraid that the kids will start a trying it if they know. I think people stop. I think people scapegoat there. I just think they personally are nervous and feel awkward to talk about it with their kids. Maybe you can barely get adult talk about sex to each other blessing. I want to talk to us. you're all about it. I guess I don't know I mean I don't feel like people are talking about, So do not we have friends or like he talked about known. They should never seen adults penis other than dad's. Now that's a good idea. We should do that near by you can say that your kid at any age, yeah, Racine Adults, penis other than doubts air be doing.
Tell mom and dad about it. You need to leave the room. You know. Oh yeah, that's that's, for some reason, a very hard conversation for people to have well, I think than I do think. It'll most people just aren't thinking about that. It's not that their actively, not saying! I just think it's not. I think every parent has a fear of their kid been whilst it I'm sure. Yes, if you have a healthy fear of your kid me, molested in the EU should be a me from day one explaining what that means. I agree with you. I just mean I don't think it's at the forefront of people's minds may be as much as it is. Yours cause you experience that that's possible. I don't think it's that I think it's either there they feel awkward, bringing it more be they think. Oh no. I don't want to tell them about, though I want I want to protect them from the world. Like I don't know, They know that we live in a world where adults sometimes prey on kids chair. I think that's a big element of it. What it did to you
they introduce them to that reality here that, I am sure that's part of the EU, but I would argue, is reality choose not to introduce them to it, but you're does opening them up to be a victim of the railways. The reality in it's! Ok, it's ok, explained some papers. There's a lot of us on this point and saw Miss her second in some of them abuse other people, yeah yeah. I think that's good, I guess yeah. I do think people don't want to because just like they don't wanna show them scary movies like that, and though then there is a fear, your sort of imparting that affects you, because they don't can't sleep and then there arguing about their worry. That makes a lot more sense. To me, first of all, its fake, the movie is fake. It's been constructed to elicit fear in you, so reality at all, nor as a kid everyone find themselves in horror movie. They find themselves in Rio. They are all day every day I just mean I think there
worried about mooning fear into their kids brought. That will then affect them away. I am, I think, you're right, I think you ever. The kids need now as early on as possible yeah, but like one I was little, I was afraid of kidnappers and robbers that was afraid of real life, things that were happening. I mean they won't really happening. All men were percentage of children normal. I stood in the United States. Yes, so here we go. I'm centre for Disease Control, one in six boys and one in four girls are sexually abused before the age of eighteen. So if you had a twenty five percent chance of your kid getting kidnapped, you would talk to your kid about that and what's funny is parents will talk to their kids about getting kidnapped? Don't talk to a stranger, don't ever get new a card, don't accept candy their odds of getting kidnapped or one in
a million. Yet their ads are getting molested are, but one in four. So if you're gonna prioritize what you gonna tell your kid about price start with molesting, that's an infinitely higher percentage that that could happen to them. Yeah yeah, that's true! You said a hundred percent of us are going to have sex or ninety something per se before we die poured into the cdc. The average American who ends up having penis invaluable intercourse does so for the first time around the age of seventeen. This age has something to do with house able your family is peer pressure, her personality and according to a recent study, your genes, but between twelve to fourteen percent of adults aged twenty to twenty four have never had sex. The number drops to around five percent for adults aged twenty five to twenty nine and by age. Forty four only around two point: three percent of adults report: never having happened
of sex. They could end in somebody getting pregnant. Also, some ninety nine point: seven percent of people end up having sound yeah that's incurred in an interview in the. U S is said by contrast in two thousand ten twenty five percent of unmarried japanese men over the age of thirty reported being virgins, the trend is so prevalent theirs. I would term for late in life. Male virgins yarrow me so we're doing a lot of japanese word. We are learning a lot of cap and ease, but was one that someone like her rose from a thorough. She now were you here we were, you die. Suddenly, the ever more use working. The ammo ever care just yesterday, we already for God this is. If we all agree on this day, I married to an asian lady should know this Hiroshi carouse ye around she. Yet so yeah most people got most Americans anywhere.
Americans, yeah sure overlay, Apple pie, baseball and coitus, sir. I I bet more people have sex in the. U S than ever Try apple pie, probably area more drivers, Chevy or play based, definitely drive more than drive a shabby. Very many people well meant until now, broil older people driving order, because it's one of the big three in American was largely dominated by domestic cars in the in the eighties you'd, like a thirty percent chance proudly of driving a chevy beforehand, and people try different turns out they do. I feel like most people when they find one they like the one or two they like they kind of sticking your also from an end. family and they love toilet cameras, do what they like twitter
as he himself general camera is for sure, yeah yeah, yeah, really hot as they like, japanese car, the other very dependable. There is really no arguing that obtaining think have. I ever I've only had Japanese, since only a Japanese. When I met you drove a hand to see our view, and then you switch to a previous, genuine Honda, Toyota, and I had a player before that at a camera. Ok, great ended ever when you were in that car. Did you hear the son? I think I'm turning Japanese. I think I'm turning Japanese. I really think so. I dont really once in either shop. You ve heard that song, I sure, have ok, I wonder if the author of the song, what was gathered assemblies, five year old. What was the gate had plague? Will? What was the capitalism of him feeling like? He was turning Japanese, I think it is something I mean and back
you do, yeah what you do. That's how you feel go on go on noise It's just such a glass half empty point of view. Here. It's a minority point of view. Yeah it is. I get it though I get that that's pine at the most optimistic waiter. Look! Ok, but we ve forgotten facts. We forgot how many kids that lady had the lady who had the most man a kid. and it was sixteen I remember, because there were sixteen pairs. A twin Levin set a Triplets four sets of quadruplex. Now we were trying to figure out that math for two yeah and I'm dead ashamed of myself. That I would forget the number sixty now. That's true I mean, if any number, even worse
Meanwhile, he created a combination for our teacher cannon, smart enough to make it zero zero six nine. So I would remember here, although I can tell you something about that woman, she did not do much. Sixty nine needed straight coitus. It sounds like these nuclear bomb. We don't know how much for play. They had worn them. It said like she was property of him, Burma how outdated the there was all dela. Her name was like gal of mark or something right right. Even so it was poor. Lady yeah, it was handmaids tail. The Isle of Man, yes or no cause in capturing referred to us. if EV and his wife right is. I think passengers are going by Christian of Dax. Ok to her. The next likelihood overwhelm me go get some interaction.
Maybe you should go by Dax of Kristen she'll go by Christian, backed up by backs of Christian. Can quid pro quo. Ok, so I dont know how factual this is. I don't think we know, but the emperor gang is kind of you the staff had the most me. I said we have had as many as three thousand wives and will never know. exactly how many children he Father, but its estimated to be somewhere between one thousand and two thousand. I believe that you, don't you think, that's a view. Three thousand white minimally have three: does he have had three thousand? Why this no problem, o Manfredi you're awake for sixteen hours a day you ve got three thousand Ives. There is three hundred sixty five days in the year by year,
You see nine wives a day, so no problem every hour in forty five minutes. You visit when your wife's and have sex, but that should be three thousand bay. these that year, nine times a day or having sex you. I don't think he could even during the great game, this car? Maybe that sounds like a meaningful. Are you did I know now coming? The challenge is not one. Do it share. Lets you consider that a child, ok, she couldn't remembered the date of the note fault, divorce laws and my aunt is a divorce attorney. So I asked her. She said the first no fault divorce law was introduced in California and nineteen. Seventy
California last signed by then Governor Ronald Reagan, was followed by similar laws in many states in the nineteen seventies and early eighties. Today, all states accept New York offer some form of no fault. Divorce saw yogurt, grew so that some thing mail does your. Is she tiring of all your factual requests or she liking that this is an opportunity to check in the lot with you like said, the latter have been asked anything in a why there was every time she Polly get annoyed by that. Understandably, so yeah, it's just enough. Well, I don't think you could ask me too many questions. Thank you. I wouldn't get annoyed over you, ve gotta talk not pony today. Well, just half of its new, if not at all, is observing when my boys got really went well, that's cause I worked out, and so my
head is kind of sweaty Ivan showered about it feels like my boxers in the middle and oh, maybe like mine, where but damp, there's some dampness Ok Now- and I bet now that you ve arm on spool the it's gonna drop in temperature quickly, like my boxer, pants Ill Polly, make me feel EL. Without your refreshing. Now my head felt cool right now. I would love it, but it's not like in a damp way right. That's nice! That's not good! No one wants that what are you gonna do about Europe, sweat. You see what happens. I guess we now, I'm heals all wounds. I can't imagine when I'm like eighty years old, I of paper thin skin and stuff that I'll still be swept through my boxers. Now, air formats pathway level out by one road start putting a mat down underwear, my butt cheeks.
I want to sleep so that I dont soil, my sheets in bath the are they don't want to rely on a number of or your breath, linens diaper you're wearing? No, if I had a diver, I wouldn't probably would decide sob up all that might show when you feel at another reason to wear a diver, oh boy, unknown on their put my money where my mouth is on this impact on a trip Triarii trying, maybe I'll make it two thousand twenties resolution great. I think I'll wait all his travels over share. I imagine my diapers would take up a bunch of my carryin. That's trail! That's, although I could get him in the city. I land in one of my talking about a load if up from buying depends all around the country right out in public. Maybe it'll be a story: in some gas mag about me that I put my pants or something so am. I do have to watch my peace and q yeah. She said and nine countries, if you're a female whose and faithfully they get stoner burned.
so I ran actual fifteen countries. Also, India's top court has ruled adultery is no longer a crime, striking Donna fifty eight year old colonial era, law which it said treated women as male property. That's great news for my mother lands. Ok, look I succumb to stereotypes just like anyone else, and it's funny can sometimes like. I have this now pushing of what India is and what the folks there are, and occasionally their stuff that just totally incongruous with what I think about India in Indians. Ok, like that brutal raping of the girl and the Buzz buzz like that, does not feel like India or Indian into here that they were property up until
a minute ago. That doesn't feel like them either remains positive. What I'm saying I have a really high opinion of India and the Indians, so don't like when you hear stuff like that, I'm running late now that, like a long time ago, husbands, goodbye wives, near yeah, that's true, because they were technically property. At that point, if you paid a clear Hauser something for somebody, yeah generation iron, three, which Robert Mccartney was talking about with me, we both love the series. It's a documentary series about body builders and this one really took a global view of the sport and there was a man from India that was going to compete for the first time an them. He didn't place very well he's enormous, but he didn't have the level of definition that their requiring right to take a trophy. Then it was pointed out afterwards the guy's, a vegetarian rye. That's not me, just don't think about.
Do you think about an indian competing on the world stage for body building and can't eat NEA. It's a huge part of those body. Builders diets need like those those thinking, half the deck mentors watching these guys eat food. It's crazy belly, like nine chicken breastwork for breakfast. Oh there eating, you know since a trick chicken broth. Today la that's crazy here. What's he eating like, when I shall know lead in but when I'm watching it do you. I won't do it. Thinking like, why could never be that's like I can't work out that hard or that much lift that book, fuck that when I watch it I go, I couldn't you eat. Like Fani, I quitted force myself to ie seven hundred grams approaching. I would die yeah. That seems to be the hardest part of the whole. The whole thing davers awful yet really funny. You know I used to think that
What were the reason I watch these was because of the muscles that I just love looking at muscles, which is certainly a part of it, but really make inclusion after this third one was now I'm interest in the sub culture and help you need, we raised or bizarre banana pejorative way here. What a bizarre and unique lifestyle choice. It is it's one of the most out their lifestyle choices. How anyone on the planet's making yeah? That's! Actually what I'm interests do we think its control? Oh yeah, I had I been array. Imagine yeah! I think that's the only explanation that it really is people who knew eat a sense of control in the most controlled endeavour. Now talk about measuring your food yeah. What time you work out, what supplement? What time it takes about all that stuff racy, we're all controls
I just think we all are even the people that think they aren't. They are seeking control in some way and getting, and we would like to be able to control the world around its it's scary, lot of variables in the world. So, anyhow, it back to this legal. Our duty with adultery right adultery is can, city illegal in twenty one american states still including New York? Although surveys show that while most Americans disapprove of adultery, they do not think of it as a crime. The criminal statutes remain forest for largely symbolic reasons, and there isn't enough enforcement risk for anyone to incur the political costs of repealing them will lose. The soup fascinating episode of more perfect the Supreme Court Series than that who puts it out of a radio radio, LAO yeah more perfect. Its awesome podcast series about the Supreme Court, in landmark cases in one of them, was down in Texas.
These two guys got arrested for sodomy gap and it really went through what's going out with was like this so on in all these states, where they might have like an anti adultery law right to get that off. The bookstall state legislator would have to take it out so that there would have to be a representative that that would that would that would be his or her cause and they would take it onto the floor them legislative body and in a mandate there is so little incentive for someone to take on a cause like let's get rid of this autumn Lara. Let's get rid of this. So what happens they just stay? There is no one's gonna. Let you take me back laws and then the young man, the unwritten agreement, is or unsaid agreement as they don't enforce it now, and then what what some of these like? Acl you groups or other groups are are hoping for is that someone actually gets tried with this crime. So that was the case.
This fascinating sodomy Kazan because they in fact were not committing sodomy, but they had the kind of go along with it in pretend they were just so that it could go the Supreme Court naked banners, sodomy laws altogether, re on the judicial side, bright, yeah yeah, it's such a dead pod cast all the episodes are so that two seasons, I believe, yeah, maybe three, maybe three but check it. How we love it yeah! Ok, so you said pull times that parenting is thank less it is it thank less I mean it in the most literal sense lay don't ever turn around and say. Thank you for giving me a bath. Thank rifle brushing my teeth. Thank you for making me dinner harangue. It is in the muzzle literal way be. I goes completely unappreciated. Yeah yeah, when in New York or getting married at half the rate they were in the sixties, half the world as well
you said in New York City s way. We're getting married at half the rate they were in the sixty. All governments to higher sums were well. I don't know I mean I looked it up and I didn't really find specific New York, but the great American marriage decline is a drop from seventy two percent of the: U S: adults, being widened: nineteen sixty two half in two thousand fourteen so in the whole country, yes, or why Albania, or could be even more fear the closure and was just about New York. But while it says a lot yeah, it says it's usually tucked up to gain in women's rights and the normalization of divorce, but this article is saying it also has to do with men, while the men ever want to get married, they just knew they had to if they wanted. Here. I don't know, though the the
I say that I feel like is all about truth. I feel it is generally, though, on a woman's waiting for the new task near you now I have yet to hear a dude they re like just wish, should ask now reopening well, let me that's the whole, the woman's not supposed to ass, both stealer harm in old times me day: autonomy on that was weirdly a question. The last I was on Ellen when I did the asked after that was where women's. Unlike I'm waiting. What should I beauty and am I state, needs- ask him Mary, you yeah, you don't want you nothing, there's a deal burger than finds own was yeah, I don't wait for someone else to give. This is for her, that's a big thing, the brain and do it. You suggested tat complaint. We talk up on this so a lot about infidelity ends. People might not like this word, but over reaction to it-
and it reminded me of Paul bloom he's a psychologist. I heard him and SAM Harris he's been on SAM Harris a few times, but he talks about betrayal bias and how, when people are feeling betrayed. There is a skewed sense of reaction to back down are going on in the context he was talking about, wasn't about the difference between dying from a traffic accident verses, a doctor who purposely misdiagnose suit. Give you a treat me yeah. He was talking about ways that have died yet specifically that a case where one doktor was purposefully region. People go to keep two chemo. Yes, exactly mammal dog and healthcare die aid, but the his point was if they die cancer there, not no one's man
roads, but the fact that someone's hand was behind that then there's a person to you now, it's simple was most ridiculous example. Mrs my opinion look at the amount of money we put towards terrorism over the Lass nine eleven eighteen years. Yeah, then the five trillion dollar range yeah verses. How much the government spent on cans? That's a very easy way to go. Oh there's something emotional going on because one thing killed a three thousand people over the last twenty years and the other thing I killed sixty Lillian right. We put all of our resources into the thing that killed three thousand set a sixty million.
Well, there's some bonkers Gunderson dissonance there in for someone who is lost to people from cancer, I'd say get over our emotional attachment and fuck and attack the things that kill the most of us here. I agree that in the doktor case we trust doctors, inherently they're supposed to protect, does them their job. We can walk in there feeling, like they're gonna, do everything they can for us. So then, when they don't, it feels extra painful clay, thinkers and people feel like they got God. Why? My dear young man is its already so hard for humans to be vulnerable are vulnerable. With a doctor, yeah you go to a surgeon, you go. I trust you yeah opened my body up and take care of me and soon your vulnerability is betrayed.
Yeah, it's a double whammy, anything! That's what happens. A relationships is your vulnerable with somebody out anything like that. Person now has to walk a line now because they have your vulnerability in their pocket air so that we just practice mean way more vulnerable to everybody. The stakes of that one person, senior vulnerability would go down. I would hope true there will. I liked her and I, like her message alike, were you at all thinking the whole time as this is my dirty mind like her. She cheat on her husband, o interesting because he has such a clinical. This impassioned enlightened the view of the whole thing yeah. No, I didn't think that I think she's just seen a lot of couples, a law, a lot of people have come out with problems and she knows she can't demon. I am cause. She knows them, yeah it's hard to demonize, a human
there in front of you and there a person wants specifically a psychologist, mean promises. They're, not gonna, see mega judgment. I write their yeah, but I don't mean that I was thinking she did or didn't she didn't. I just got acts a curious ass if she had ever yeah that's interesting now am I didn't think about that? I assume she does what she said, which is not put all her eggs and her husband's basket. She probably does do that and I'm sure he does that if there are on the same page, you now so I'm sure makes their marriage better be optional. Expecting him to be every single person more, like your I'd like to talk to her again need to spring a bat. Should you and I go into her shirt- show for therapies. Share them! Love! You I'll see you at asters.