Jerry Buting (Making A Murderer) is an American criminal defense attorney and author. He sits down with the Armchair Expert to discuss the mechanics of the justice system, his perpetual desire to root for the underdog and his recent book- Illusion of Justice. Dax asks Jerry about stereotypes in jury selection and Jerry breaks down the necessity of burden of proof. The two talk about the secret skills of an attorney, ethics in justice, false confessions and how the Steven Avery case catapulted him to dreamboat status.
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viewed in Jerry beating. You will remember him from making a murder- and this is so timely, because when we recorded Jerry we didn't know there is a making murderer. Part two yeah Megan murmur is awesome. It's on network
We love that we devoured and links wheat, sweet, candy, bars, yeah, that's sweet in tanks, variant!
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we are now were sad thinking about, it was very heavy, but it's,
really well done. It's such a good shall ever juicy very juicy him
and Jerry was one of the two council them
Vendean Stephen Avery and he's just an incredibly smarts articulate
wonderful man with a very important message to spread about jurisprudence in this country. We could do a little bit. Better is his theory and I
I found a very compelling. We gotta go
it is now, but I think it would be better if they can be better and if you like,
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meeting, welcomed, armchair expert you're our first law expert, which is a tasty export to have because love crimes,
deal data yeah
we we consume allotted date lines my fate
movie genre. If you could call that, is the court room drama, I just love them, so I am deeply interested in jurisprudence get. So this is a relief
gas for us to have so you're in town you're, promoting a book right.
illusion of justice, which I started. Reading last night. Forgive me, I didn't consume the whole book in one night, but right at the gates. I can tell you that it is very well written
have you had you done a lot of writing throughout your life, or this is my first book at as a lawyer. You write a lot and I do trials and appeals and on appeals. It's all writing. Almost all writing and briefly put out. Eleven thousand word briefs all the time and I fear a case of what what's a book hundred thousand words or something like that that disliked and brief sure I can do that yeah, the very different kind of writing now yet. Well, that's what I'm going to ask. What is the kind of form
four briefs, or any of these things that you have to adhere to it as a teach you like economy of words, or does it give you good writing habits, it does teach you economy words because you ve got a fit within their word limit Hon. So it taught me how to edit pretty well my own written words to be able to fit them within us.
the train avoid legal easy, even though your writing for lawyers judges, you want to avoid as much legally as possible, make a clear, more interesting and these appellate courts in other go home, and I have ten brief south forget that an f, if you don't catch them early, you gotta, hooker, morally dislike any ass, then the eternal offer they don't pay attention so yeah. I think it helped me in that regard, will like a script riding it you're. If your first three pages aren't dynamite, no one's ever get and beyond that you know you learn that quickly, Sir there's so much of your jobs. I was thinking about your job last night and Monica both went back and visited, making a murder which is
on Netflix and tremendous tempered documentary about the trial of Stephen Avery in Brendan Dashi, its phenomenal. If you haven't seen it just stop listening to this podcast earlier on and his yes he's one of two lawyers that defend its deep and maybe there are more but at any rate as I was watching it, I started really thinking about how encompassing the job is. It certainly not just now.
in the law. I was thinking specifically how you have two probably manage the personality of the judge, there's almost dating involved or some down on exactly what,
but there is another human being that ultimately has a ton of control over how this thing goes. You're trying to make them exert your will in some way there's gotta be a lotta psychology behind it and a lot of interpersonal relations that
you crazy right you now. I learned
exactly. I learn that early on as a brand new lawyer, where I had this case for the facts were perfect. The law was passed,
breaker. May my argument was an illegal stop. I think, and I lost as well
committee. How can I lose there's? This was so obvious, but it's more than just that
You have to engage the judge personally, it helps to know the judge, but even before you get to a judge, you have to have inner relations and personal relationships with pride
secures oh yeah. I didn't even think of that because a lot of times before case ever gets to court or before it gets into a serious part of the court. The prosecutor can make a break. Your case depends
on whether their reasonable, unreasonable, whether you can convince them that
The charge is wrong or the clients completely innocent
lotta that you can do before you get to the data more court. Is that because they,
they are also always actively evaluating whether they can try this case successfully.
so try deal you? Yes, they should be. The courts are really overworked by unlike most certainly urban areas are very of work, and so prosecutors often don't have time to really dig into their case and look at it until its it get to the point.
They really have to do a lot of work, rent for the trial, beginning or maybe right before a big motion to suppress yeah
and then suddenly they opened their file, look and realise this. Isn't this clear cut as we thought and
then there are two very just pointed out that does not gods. Gonna get ditch they're gonna, throw that out, probably exactly so that a large part of your job is being sales.
As that accurate there's a lot of that. There is also a lot of social work. Psychology
What I learned early on is it's not just the legal issues that you ve got a rage. You gotta bring humanity into the court room and that is very difficult when you ve got courts that are so clog that they are just like machine smear grinding people out motion, poor people, yeah, yes, bedside manner becomes one here, probably
Deadliest quill can be right in any. I just can't imagine that's what you think when you start law school, so rare the gates, you're you're from Indiana, is that correct
were neighbouring state. Michigan right and I said to tassel corn in Indiana Schedule quite familiar with the your lamb but you're in
bit of rural Northwest Minneapolis area. Yes, we have had a cornfield right across the street, which is great to be able to play an in built forts and all that yeah, but it really wasn't very far out from this Zack fifty six street, so not that far out from the downtown area. What did your parents do? Both my parents met at Purdue, they were studying organic chemistry,
Other got a masters degree. My father got a phd. He then went to work for Eli Lilies in Indianapolis World Headquarters, what it, what is it
will Eli lilies, it's always pharmaceuticals, ok, and so we got our drugs for free, that's great,
that's it has the dream, but then, after he had five children
like seven years over eight years ago, I, my god, he wasn't gonna, be able to make it on a chemists salary, and so his boss said why don't you want to try to law school and be a patent attorney? We use a patent attorney, and so he went to night school for five years. Cheese
somehow managed to have another child during that time, he is all morning your father and more unlucky wanted to see me. I only insects six times in his life, so they are very Catholics who know right sure, but anyway way they ended up having seven children. He became a patent attorney.
And my mother was now stay home MA am working raising seven children and that's how we go up. We will we live just walking distance to the Catholic school. Now he attended then went to high school eddic, another Catholic School Jesuit all boys. We ve got a few gas that are products of Jesuit education and in most of those guess, I've had a really favourable view of that experience.
I do to you. Do you write that it can be a real defining moment in your character? So to me it sounds like my worst nightmare like authority, we all these things, but it can yield pretty great result there very good on academics. No, I grew up in high school in the seventies, and things were the Jesuits tend to be in the more liberal wing of the catholic church anyway, but despite that kind of of bringing it was after right, after my my time in a Jesuit school that I am more of us, left the church knobbed attending for about ten more years, you know to college law, school
that part of it was an important and we have ended up going back a hazards eventually, but to battle your drug problem, no quick, such a bummer that a chemist can afford having
yeah like this. We making the most amount of money that anyone makes in those countries it so hard to do to get there
yeah and soon necessary, yeah we're right in and they were in and devising drugs that were saving lives, extending eyes by animals,
Aunt Rachel had down, stop doing that, become a lawyer too pretty bonkers so, but I would imagine with a mother with a masters degree, in a father with both a lot agree and a phd. I have to assume that educate
it was really valued and in the home it was, which is why we went to Jesuits cause. You know it was a financial strain.
seven children and the other they put virtually every die me that my father made into their children and primarily education,
oh by the time we get to college, we're on our own I'd work. My way through college they'd help some, but it was wet. When I
the dollar's right now. It doesn't seem like that much for tuition, but a doubled in my four years at NED in high school
did you at a young age. You have this great forward. It's one of my favorite forwards. I've ever read, it tells us.
so much about you in this simple. As little kind of metaphor, which is that you love the long distance running, you were not competitive by nature, so you started on the Cross country team, but then quickly you laughed value cap with running you enjoy,
I did I enjoyed that you know when you can't get in that zone in your. Your breathing is at a perfect pace in Uganda. It's almost like a high charges,
yeah in your exerting a control over something right like there's a lot for me at least the things like that that appealed to me worse, I could enter this zone that I was kind of in control of, and that was raised for forming. But so when did you did develop an interest in law? Was it something like? Oh dad did this I'm gonna do this or had you Siena up
you now, pay May said Aramis and has to think you were pulling out for me. It's been a while, since I saw a wireless router, but we don't even know who railways and probably not, but he never saw you can still see pay Mason on, oh, my God
There's watching him I'll answer, but you know
I always find it interesting. I don't know I. I think it really wasn't my father
as role models. The wanted me to become a liar because he was a patent attorney
I was really not interested in corporate law or-
the law. Are anything of amnesia. I'd like the idea of representing people helping people right
who were the underdogs right in goods. Because that's my question: did you feel like an underdog growing out? Did you feel like you could have benefited a you know? I did, I think yeah I was the worst athlete of
family knocker. Unquestionably, you know- and I went to a growth spurt and puberty were suddenly he. I grew so fast that that you, your ganglion awkward
So that may be even worse when, as particularly basketball, which was the chosen that the national support in basketball, God country in having best the ratio, ranking
Oh, I think that that kind of made me feel a little bit more of an hundred. I because you know up my friends were better athletes and we did a lot of
sort of schoolyard games and non baseball games where religious get the neighboring kids together me,
play: basketball whatever in and they were all
better than me and you I gave me a certain him, since it humility, perhaps yeah will also, if you're, the beneficiary of a
unfair system- you don't even notice it may like life's
awesome. I was born six foreign to twenty. I've got blonde hair on the quarterback of the football team, this system warheads, but if you're kind of on the outside of the system right, you do at least personally developed this overweighted sense of justice. What is that this is
Just there, some unjust things in unity I became, I feel like particularly aware of things that were unjust. You feel like you're,
like Terminator. Looking around the landscape, a guy like that fair fares, that kind of your nature yeah, I think, that's probably true-
now I don't want to oversell it. I mean it when I look back on it and compared to a lot of people, I know I had a privileged life. I had YO two loving parents,
and here we were middle class yeah, but wouldn't go hung
we had a lot of privileges and yet, but does that matter?
has anyone now we can look back and be very wherever privilege and it's great to acknowledge it.
But when you're in the moment it doesn't really matter
you that you are higher on the social status ladder than thirteen other people you're. Just looking at the fourteen that are above you like it's very hard to have perspective as a human being that you're doing better than a lie
right, and I also grew up in a late sixties since early seventies, a very politically turbulent.
I'm, and so there was a lot of injustice everywhere. You looked the out of people fighting to it to change that injustice, and I really got interested in that
rather, Vietnam protests the civil rights stuff, the loudest of water?
yeah all of that corruption, and that really help motivate me in and ultimately pushed me into the law. Because, like a lot of people, my age, you, my generation, we regret it-
change the world right, yeah, we were idealistic and who better could do that. Then lawyers at least that was the thinking at that time, rime, and when I decided to go into criminal law, which was a big step when I got to college initially. I sign up as in astronomy, major leaving.
of course. You're, which I enjoy is of Kepler and studies on your dorm room around a kiss and my brother was.
Billy, good amateur astronomer. He was able to find all the messier objects
hundred and ten or something like that. We're all these objects that this famous scientists had picked out. The night sky
He was able to find them all himself. I was never that good, but when I got to that other within the first week or two of of college was pretty obvious to me that this was not my
career. You know I would sit in these room the classroom and end there.
very, socially awkward, all the other students they couldn't carryin small talk, and I was like you guys, but
on a mountain, let alone alumina, Wilson Observatory Attic. I decided this would be a good hobby, better hobby for me, then a career, and what did you switch to switch to angler forensic studies which well criminal justice based? Ok cause are the three main feeders for law.
More generally english major his secretary avert increasingly outside you weirdly. It's all about the reading load. I heard just any liberal arts what would do a, but they they ve tried
broaden I mean they have I had when I was in law school. One of my roommates was from MIT no kidding, so a lot of different skills can be useful as a lawyer, but a lot of it is reading the question. I've had always had an interest in science, even though I thought I wasn't good enough to be.
To make that a career right, and so what am I niches in my career nowadays is forensic science and and challenge and experts, and yes, so
of the many that I have a like handful of global topics I wanna get into with you in one of them is that is the kind of and see I s culture. We live in this kind of blind faith in the lot of these forensic technologies that are now kind of a lot of them being revealed to be right, utter bullshit,
and you lived at the height of that right, you are practising law. When DNA came about right,
yes, new magic weapon. You have also seen like probably
in writing an Alice's that was utter bull shit. So yet is can you can you help us understand like what has happened in the last twenty thirty years of forensics in maybe you're an estimation of how accurate is
much it should be trust sure. I think DNA was sort of the the watershed moment for forensic studies, because for its experience to that point, there's all kinds of food to science of which is still used in the core rooms that was all subjective. The analysed would look like a give. You an example: hair comparison, microscopic hair comparison, the most bogus friends Ec Science ever in my opinion, although
It marks is right up there, but they would take. In other words, they would put a hair from the suspects head. They would compare it to the hair found at the crime scene through this microscope. They would try and look. There was no
specific number of points of similarity than they do. You had in fact, right here
yet no criteria was all subjective and they would say this looks consistent with or sometimes similar to, and then the prosecutors would take that one
Furthermore, I would try and argue that it was a match. You know right and after DNA came.
We realise that that wasn't even when they had said that these hairs were consistent. In fact, DNA excluded the defended in the case after sometimes after decades and imprisoned.
So that will even proves like a canine here that the oil it well and people
going back and looking at that they found it easier to. Experts may have a completely different opinion,
you could find hairs on the same head.
Or dissimilar enough that they would say they would. They were not even consists
right, and so that was one and I think, the first time that people will start to look away. The second one is this: science yeah we have. You ever read the book on. I think it's called killing shepherds. No, it's about this french serial killer at the end of eighteen, hundreds and basically the birth of forensic science by this French.
Scientists it very fascinating, though handwriting was one of the early ones too. You mentioned that there came about in the twenties authorities and J Edgar Hoover was modernizing. The FBI are the precursor to the FBI,
who created the FBI. Laboratory in handwriting was one of them talk about this in my book, how this guy claimed that he could determine with an almost to exclude everybody that this was the source of this handwriting based upon the way you looped your wise and cross your t's and that's her
much as all bogus, of course better, but people bought it for many years and in people were wrongly convicted for many years decades, and so in two thousand and ten pretty
recently the National Academy science came out with this study, the first
a review of all of the forensic science field, so ballistics fingerprints bite marks, hair arson, all of those things Lud span,
recent public spare. They looked at all this stuff and I said well what what are the real basis scientific basis for any of these, and they found that that would accept
of DNA. None of them were ever scientifically validated, not even fingerprints, even fingerprints. There was no one set of criteria,
of how many points of similarity there must be and how many
of dissimilarity. There could be and yet still find a cordon quote match yeah and
and so they recommended that all of these fields, which others sociology of arson experts and all these individual fields, have their own law association. They recommended that they go back
and try and do we'll scientific validity studies that can be replica bull scientifically valid yeah and very few of them have done that,
in the last twenty years. Now, yes, so where we are now like. What does that mean that this stuff is getting thrown out, or it's probably still beam
gas water courtrooms beam? It's not even in backfire courtrooms and what what's happened is to some extent the labs that used to rely on them. No longer do so, for instance, hair comparison, the FBI
just a few years ago, decided that there were no longer going to use that and they went back and they looked at. This was just in two thousand fifteen. They they looked at like two hundred sixty eight of their cases of their experts. Who presumably, should it be the shall be the best in the in the country, the FBI lab, and they studied to one and sixty eight cases and discovered by reading the transcripts that ninety five,
scent of the time their own experts had either misleadingly or falsely represented the results. Thirty two of those people were on death row, for
you know them executed. Oh my god! Now I started
data there wasn't some other evidence our case, but but still no isn't there.
isn't there, in a name flaw in having considering that, there are basically two sides to any court case which is the prosecution in the
fence to have either side being the one evaluating their information is just probably inherently a bit flawed yeah. Well, I talk about independence.
the elders and yet the notion that the FBI is doing analysis already world. There are part of the prosecution side of this equation at all times,
cisely, and that is a serious problem when it comes to crime labs in his country, because
I a large. They are organised under law enforcement. Right there either an actual part of a police department or the State Bureau of investigation. Whatever might be so so they don't have the independence from law enforcement
This should come into cordon professed themselves as scientific experts who should be unbiased.
The other thing they don't do, though, is buying testing, so
in other oughta, have samples brought his ambition
not know which sample is the suspect and watches the and which is the crime scene in which is just a reference. Sampled are trying to exclude, they should just tested. Does it matter
does it not the way the audition concert musicians now behind a screen, so you can't have the male female by us exactly an it's. It's ay eh
cognitive bias. And it's a U human trade. We all have it yeah and Emma Jane. You need
take steps to try and minimize that in one of those would be blind testing by crime lives, but they ve,
resistant to that and there was another topic that I really want to hear. You educate asylum, which is confirmation by
as or any of these biases we have as humans. We were recently robbed. We got ourselves to a hundred percent certainty. Who was I mean? One hundred percent would have bet my kids life's on the fact that
He knew who it was. I then embarrassingly confronted the parents absolutely are to apply. This person wasn't even in within two hundred miles, just
got out of my mind how fuckin wrong I was, and then I was reminded like this is why we dont permit vigilante ism because we're we're not good humans, arduous innately, bad,
this and we need really ironclad systems in place to counteract how our brain just work right.
That's right and an that's why we have all the trappings of due process, including the burden of proof that the prosecution must make and the presumption of innocence, because it's very difficult to prove you didn't do something. If somebody wants to accuse you of something, they should be the one that would it would prove that right. We ve lost sight of that. Unfortunately, in this country into many people jump to conclusions,
don't give anybody the benefit of the doubt or the presumption of innocence. It can also be not malicious Rau. Absolutely it's just the are flawed human brains that
once we lock onto something. We only see things that confirmed that that's exactly right, confirmatory by they also call it
tunnel vision and police officers often fall prey to this. Although you can train people to be aware of it, but what it does is you know he is a tendency to look like looking down a tunnel only at evidence. That confirms your belief in what happened, and you kind of ignore everything is often
besides that doesn't support your theory yeah and again, maybe not even because you're like oh, I want to exclude anything contradictory. It's just how your brain naturally function so bright. The fingerprint analysis to your point: if you're looking for fourteen points on the on the sample
match and you find them you likely were looking for the thirty five that don't match.
Right, you almost can't be doing both things at once, mentally a better exam
full of actually is, but the call to mark firearm and to mark evidence which otherwise let people know as ballistics, ah where they they look at a test, fired bullet or shall we say bullets that as they go through the right,
they have. Certain marks stray premises that every rifle is unique in its right, and that is not true verse lol,
I have always bumped against that, unlike their mass producing some of these guns, a million a year re untie me they're, not least a thousand
I'm bored identically. They are, and in fact this forensic feel developed back when they use to hand bore
rifle in there and in their worst slight microscopic differences, but as they ve gone to the point of mass production there, all the only differences you will find or with age. Perhaps
little damages and things like grass wear and tear, but they then they'll look under a microscope, though compare test fired with the bullet
besides the scene or in the body and they'll try line up these marks, but in this field they can call something a match, if only something like forty percent thirty five to forty percent of the line,
even match, while meaning the majority view not or yes, sir I had they saw laid, nor does the dissimilarity is say while their dissimilar, but we don't have to consider those yes and then, let's wide now, even a bit of luck. Let's start from this place that maybe I should have started with, which is it not least my understanding of our are our criminal court system? Is we by design? I see that you really like Johnny
yes, yes to that in any person by design, we have opted to happy criminal justice system that prefers that a guilty person go free to an innocent person being convicted, but we have prioritized that right. Other other legal systems have not right, or the burden of proof is on the defendant or one not right is that accurate, Yad Emmi, the John Adams.
I quote him in the book. Just paraphrase it exciting really understands crow. To be honest with you when I read it hurt like four times and like I don't think I'm getting the message. You know it's interesting because I initially used a more modernized version of it and decided at our people on the internet and in terrorism
You say that's not really what he said, but really what's the point was that they know it's better.
in our system? We believe it's better, that ten guilty people go free than one innocent person can only convicted. Why? Because
There are so many different ways in which people are guilty of all kinds of different offences that you can never catch everybody. You can ever prosecute everybody right, but if you start convicting the innocent, then people will think
Why should I obey the law? If even being, if events
obeying the law and being innocent. Isn't enough to protect me, then,
I should I ever that such an interesting counter intuitive.
It is your right and in his father I could go to jail,
or do in Zaire or not. I, my old elements is pointless. If, if such an idea is that should take hold in our society, they were really in trouble. Yeah, that's fascinating, and I don't want to get sidetracked by this. Nor do I want to create a trap for you to step that you'll regret. Is it at all troubling just to derail little bit that are public court room is almost predicated on the exact opposite. Currently. Do you feel, like there's, been a little bit of shift in the way we we administer our social justice? That is almost the opposite there. It is troubling and its
It's accelerated, I think, on social media. Yes, where you are convicted, you lose your job first he's at and then, if you're lucky, there's an investigation right and that's if you're, lucky generally don't or even
It's not a job. Your reputation is is gone. The answer that accusations made on social media in the iron academic and that happens to you, you're not getting hired at another university. That's a rap on your thirty year. That's right, yeah, a short war story. Here we had a case that went to trial. It was really my case, my wife, Cathy Stilling, whose also criminal defence training. We worked together, ultimately tied the case, and it was.
a substitute teacher who you know a kind of respect they get from students, and I know I know how much I respect the ass to this poor guy he's in class and he's got a work to school initiative adult there as well on outside person
and he says what we're gonna do a little study on what it was like for manufacturing process and so get your desk in circles and animal star
you color this under paper impasse it to the next guy. Anyone be efficient and fast and and saw there
innocent circles and and kids are in high school. Kids are goofing off shore there
I'm penises, prowling scribbling answer this one girl was scribbling in getting this marker all over the desk and the teacher comes over reaches points his arm over her shoulder says: you're gonna have to stay after and clean that up the girl. Next to her says: oh did he touch her boob, oh boy, and she says I don't know
the girls as well, I do he touched your Boop and then this rumour starts going around and at an end up at the principal's office, he is accused of a sexual assault. The case at goes all the way to trial. Oh, my goodness,
police never interviewed the three boys who were in the others side of the circle of this these death, looking directly at who said? No, he didn't touch or businesses
and ultimately he was found not guilty in five minutes and the jury came out and shook his head and said we hope you continue your teaching career marriage, but on, of course, will not happen because, once you are accused of something like that, it ended his career, and I was so sad because one thing ever really want to do is
a teacher both of his parents or teachers. Oh my god. So could you just lie at this point right now and say, but good news. He invented E Bay
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so you're edges. It's really interesting
now and in the other thing on again, so that such is kind of like the conceit of our legal system right benefiting people need to know about. I dont know that it's it's common knowledge. That is why and how we practise law in this country that it is time to prevent the one innocent from going and at the expense of maybe ten guilty people so also waters through the ethics just a little, because my wife and I will give him these wonderful icon debates for the sake of this, but their arguments when we're watching a show, let's say like we watch the OJ documentary which was fascinating and she very much objected
different moves. The defence council made what say by bringing the jury to his house, and they re Hung pitchers ass well, ass. It appeared that was gone tomorrow or black friends than he may be had rife in so, and she was, she felt like that was sullen. Ethical in in should be illegal, and then I said, ok, but now switch it to its,
Steven Avery, who you want me to cuz we'd, already watch out right now. Imagine that they're going to do. They have an opportunity to give Steven Avery the best possible defense, and it involves that, and it is so depending on whether using the person is guilty or not about whether you think the thing is ethical or not, but I'm always of the position that your greatest ethical command is that you have to give them. The very
as defence humanly possible right right. It will explain why that is ethical because it can seem from the outside. Like oh you're, let's assume the person thinks the worse, that you're representing someone guilty of murder, their monster and you're doing all these tricks to get this person off. Explain why it is your ethical obligation to do that. Well, because my role first of all is not to judge people whether their guilty or not, and I talk about a little story in the book where I, because of the pressures when I was a public defender you I started taking shortcut.
making assumptions about that when I was wrong and proven wrong, and so the vast majority, it's not like you see in tv, were the sky comes in and pop down his money and says I'm guilt,
we're gonna get me off right, an ally in court. I mean the other our limits on what you can do that or that are actually part of the ethical code. You cannot, for instance, ethically put on perjured testimony, but you can put the state to its
burden of proof right, and there are some cases where, if a prosecutor is just being to unreasonable in the the the way that they are recommending resolving the case that you have to say, I write well, then you're gonna have to go to trial, improve it, and- and I can challenge that and point out where there are problems and weaknesses in the in their case and oftentimes is not a question of a complete, you know not guilty or guilty verdict. It's it's. It may be guilty of a lesser. Ah private. The prosecutor was unwilling to give as a plea
cargan. But I think that is the part that some people miss is that you have an obligation in this system to keep the prosecution is honest, is humanly possible to protect the actual system right right. So it's not just about your client. Your also say
regarding the system you are, and you have to be careful, though sometimes because sometimes what me?
be in particular when it comes.
human relations and that you have with a prosecutor, a judge. You may think it would be better for my future cases. My future relations with these people, if I'm not aggressive in this particular case, and yet you
after focused on the client is before you more and on legal issues you may choose, you may think a boy if I'm. If I appeal this legal issue, I could make really bad law, meaning I could lose and then it would apply to everybody, it would become a it would be. It would be a bad move. Yet for that individual client, if it's in that person's interest, you do have to make that appeal in advance that legal argument and try your best, even if you do fail, and so there
others more of those kinds of ethical things. I think that that you face more commonly inured long career. I have to imagine you have had clients you ve come to hey is that happened?
say: hey. No, I've had some clients, I didn't think, were the very pleasant
People are high, but I bet I
to try and find a good and people. Let me that's weird:
you know. This is what actors do you hear them all the time and in interviews same even if they're playing a serial killer, you can't play a serial killer from a place of this? Is a monster cause they're will be one dimensional. You have to actually buy into the fact that you're that person inept corset
no one thinks they are a monster. So it's just kind of mental hurdle. You have to go through night to play with any kind of death and not that you're willingly taking that monsters. But but you do, of course, if you have any expectation
juries going to see this human being one way you have to a minimally see them that way yourself, don't you write an end?
I find with people is that virtue in others are very
very thin sliver of our society that are a sociopath supper, psychopaths, very, very, very small. The vast majority of people, even who have committed a crime, there's all kinds of circumstances. It's like a snapshot of them at a particular time in their life or particular day when they used bad judgment, often
fuelled by alcohol or drugs, and it doesn't necessarily just like you may not wish to be portrayed on your worst moment- oh god and me,
me too, and so often times it's a matter of trying to convey that to a judge or to a prosecutor before that date,
This is a human being who made mistakes here. He can use punishment being held accountable, but you don't need to throw away this life forever. Yes, and so so I try and folks
what what caused this behavior? What is it in your life? It's that they turned this person down there, a long time that people who don't have the kinds of privileges? I grew up with pressure, and that was a challenge for me. When I first started practising law, I was a public defender, meaning I was in court representing very, very poor people.
many people of color. I had not grown up around a lot of of that kind of
already in your eye, mercy and diversity, and all of that and I still had to somehow relate to them in a way that I could then represent them. Those as well as, if I did know all of those problems ahead, experienced all those problems, so you you do sometimes have to immerse yourself and that in your
by its life. I do get kind of emotionally involved with some of my clients most of
even though you often advised not too sure you're. How much I could doctor who
surgeon. You know you can't you lose a peasant eightam, you shouldn't data.
You shouldn't, I get so motion involve Europe cancer doktor, I mean think how many patients should lose, but I dont see my practice thy way. I do try to get personal with my clients and to understand them. I think I did have to understand that.
to be able to to represent the best side of them. So you were at the front line with what is in his eye,
Right now are being discussed, and, thank God, is this kind of disproportionate conviction of African Americans lies a tonic dad on it. Now right, yes, and if two people get tried of the exact same crime, ones, white ones, black is a staggering difference right.
Conviction right. A conviction and incarceration rate is really the sentence. Eve assented. Yes, you got to see that first hand, I assume, as a public defender. Quite often I did, and you know it my career, which started in eighteen. Eighty, one as a lawyer I mean I've. I've seen that was a really difficult time in our justice system.
That was during the the cocaine. The crack right at night, in the disparity that somehow war on draw is that people in the eighties believed that crack with so much more addictive that, therefore we were gonna, punish it a hundred times more than powder. Basically, yes, and it was also much cheaper, and so it became the drug of poor people, many people of color and they were disproportionately punished as
ultimate? That's, I think, where the billions blah very obvious about it, they they penalize the version of the drug. The black folks were using and may be minimal
reality decriminalize version the white people used rife yeah in it
oh? How? When you were in the die of that storm, you must have been so tempted to just go you guys. This is just fuckin race,
some like can't you see that has to be said for someone who's dedicated to pointing out injustice, and I just such a huge injustice. What was it?
I got to be emotionally going through that so regularly and losing people too, that you know it. It was a challenge, snow question. What I think it was it was more difficult to deal with that in the courtroom on a case by case basis, particularly when this other pernicious development of mandatory minimum
whose popped up, what taking away any discretion that a judge had two to avoid prison for somebody, who's who had x amount of drugs, quantity
and so what I started doing. Actually, I became more in invested in the policy sides of of my career,
Working to essentially leaders
it is later, is national association. Crumb of defence lawyers I got very active in them- was on the board and, through those kinds of advocacy groups tried to try to influence policy change because, ultimately, that's where was happening was in the legislatures, but I can't say that I feel like I was very successful
Finally, I think people are starting to the pendulum is starting to swing back and people are starting to realise that we need to be small,
you're on crime than just tough on crime, the air we we wasted a whole generation or two in the meantime, because of these is jerk
in policies we haven't at least historically been terribly interested in rehabilitation right. We seem to be very interested in punishment right as compared to at least a lotta european systems. Norway YA, the downturn, if you saw that Michael more documentary who to invade knacks but
He had a great the others guys hanging by alike who are killers, but then there are received a visit rate is my sort way lower in theirs dad on it? So it's not even like you know
It's an opinion, there's just tonnes adapted to support this. So, yes, TAT is
something that is frustrating to you. It is for us to
being an you know that there was a period.
I'm in the sixtys, when we we focus more on rehabilitation, but then politicians frankly used it to scare people they found. There was a good way to get votes prosecutors
judges would have these clanging jail cell doors ass and in all this I get tough on crime stuff, whereas other countries, Norway, is the best example I can think of that they take. They start from the premise that these people are going to be out at some
most of them right and do we want them? We now
have them under our control for a period of time. We are going to try and change whatever it is that brought them here in the first place and make it so that they can succeed in society again when they get out not just toss them out the door in and have some parole. Agent is very punitive and re. The lock him up at every moment, because people do they need,
helping be when you get up the arm and also America would now we do have a mass incarceration me, two million people, two million people in our imprison. Right now,
and then there are many many more who on parole, probation supervision of all these restricted rights and then there's all collateral consequences once you're convicted Fallon your doors close to you,
that would otherwise have been available in most in the majority. Those are drug related, aren't they. The majority are drug related,
There are. There is also a lot of low level, the domestic violence and things of that nature, where people are held in custody for periods of time. But when it comes to the prisons, the majority are: isn't the majorities, not violent crime. I guess
the big point where it's interesting, I again politicians will play tricks with the numbers, saw them
we'll say I'm in Wisconsin there's debate going on in my home state right now about in the governors race. You know the Democrats who want to drastically reduce the prison pop population which has tripled in the state in the last couple decades, and the current governor will
argue well that something like sixty or seventy percent of these people are violent well, but violent and in what sense,
not even a solely for what they're they're imprisoned for the maybe a drug offence, but because they had the same domestic abuse case against them in the past
They can. They may be labelled as a violent, rather
I must also be included violence. Yet money had right and you know it,
So if I am a very conservative in my hearing this, I would probably be inclined to go like oh Lahti, dog physiologist, let everyone now we have to deal with crime and today,
and I would say we absolutely do. The question just is what is the most effective way to actually reduce crime in its problem
the counter intuitive and a lot of ways like you know, was its thirty
and a year in some states to keep someone behind or more yes are bars rights and not even fiscally of your conservative. This is probably a terrible use of resources.
allocating thirty Grand a year when you could probably send someone a treatment for x amount. You could also try given sober living situation. There's all these different things that would actually save money and probably reduce our recidivism boy. That's award! That's a tough one,
Well, I know you mentioned conservatives I mean that's. That may be the tipping point of of why people are suddenly realizing that we need to get smarter, because it was constant, for instance, for the last five years, or so we ve been spending more on our prison system than all of the university campuses throughout this date. Come
I'd, which is insane yeah. I'm Texas found themselves in the same situation about five or ten years ago. Texas, red say that you can get.
As systematically reduced their prison population, while improving the safety of their citizens in smart ways with diversion courts and treat
The courts in and more realistic sentences, so
there are ways to do it that can satisfy so called conservatives are people who are you know in the past, may have been locked up and throw away the key yeah three strikes your arm in arm sentencing all those things right. So let's talk about another kind of unavoidable.
The fact of our situation in this country, which is I'm assuming that there has to be just as tremendous incentive to play out cases because I have to a man
they're just theirs. It nearly enough courts to be processing Nero nearly the amount of people who are arrested daily right. It is a huge flow. Is she wasn't there? There is an plea: bargain is really that the oil that keeps things like the courts from totally collapsing. Everybody has a right to a trial. If everybody demanded that right to a trial, the system would grind to a halt rights, but not everybody. Frankly. Why
trial now most people who are guilty admit their guilty mozzarella. Oh yes, most of them have already admitted before they ever come to me.
Dave admitted to the police, most people who are guilty. It's like yeah, I I screwed up, but what kind of punishment is just right, and so what prosecutors sometimes will do, there's a game where they'll overcharge, but the more serious offence, immense plea bargain and say: if, if
you'll give up your right to a trial plead guilty. We will recommend acts as a punishment of her
and if you want to go to trial, is something called the trial penalty that there has been some focus on recently, which is that, if you choose to go to trial would say
because you really are innocent and then you lose. The stakes are high. Like disdain poker match, you know you might
be convicted of a much more serious offence, get much more time than if you had just taken. This plea bargain and am particularly with misdemeanours where people men in states that have cash bail requirements, which is still most people, can sit in jail for months at a time sometimes approaching the maximum
sentence that they would get you a lot of people get off on time, served rider that the death sentence ends up being time. Sir, and many people who are not guilty plead guilty because it's their chance to get out if
want to trial. You can have to sit even longer
or if you plead guilty to this offence, you'll get out today or very soon
Yes, so we just had a debate about this and I love your opinion on. We are watching the staircase and it was getting to the point in nine on all the ladder up zones where they base.
legally tell him. You can do time, served just admit that you did it, and I
the opinion look at the frail d of the human ego,
like it. When you really evaluating. Am I going to spend time with my kids my last ten years, or am I gonna? Have the quote integrity of having never admitted to them
to me in a utilitarian viewpoint that just your ego fucking with you, but I would
Imagine you might think, that's an erosion of something. So imagine you are in that situation. I forget his name from the staircase Michael Petersen, Michael Petersen, and really the choice is between being with your family in just having to live with. The fact that you admitted to something now granite,
I also think he might have done, but that's neither here nor there, let's, let's assume he didn't, do it. What are your thoughts about bath? I don't even have to put myself in his position, because I've had many clients that have been in that position.
great I'll. Give you one example: a guy who always maintained his innocence, who the innocents project worked on and got him his conviction reversed. Because of these these flaws and
trial and then I was appointed to take over and defend him at trial. Well by that time he had spent five and a half years in prison or jail and on the verge of his trial, which was for a first to intentional homicide. Life sentence. The prosecutor offered to reduce the charge down to a negligent kind of offence, homicide offence that had a maximum penalty of five years for ease.
So you can walk out that day or he can continue to maintain his innocence and he thought look. I put my faith in the justice system once I was wrongly convicted.
Frankly, I have a better lawyer now, but I could still beacon
again. Thanks are due so high stakes are in, you know, and I thought we had a good case I
we could. When the trial I was, I was fired up as paranoid.
Ago, but I absolutely understood his decision at that point that the people that matter to him, yes knew he wasn't guilty, no matter what he did.
Try and get me solve this case, and I was kind of my point is like you're actually trying to your you're you're overvalued strangers opinion of you verse. The people in your actual circle can be won your actual circle. They long either thought your innocent or guilty. So do you not using? That word only has the effect of making strangers. Thank you write something badly and even if you go to trial and where
and found not guilty. There are many people who will still think you're guilty and got off shore OJ exactly the hard to find a lot of people,
for example, and so that you know so why? Why risk that, for that smaller benefit,
but is that an erosion like I guess?
There is a similar analogy between like
No union work like you could make
a scenario where he feel like you should break out of this union thing use an example. Just in our business. Like I go direct this like p S,
aid us support this thing, but I'll be kind of breaking my union commitment. I feel like it's worth it, but am I walking them backwards of what they fought for like these? These can ethical things when someone does,
aid to the system to the threat? Are they in bold name that that side? There is definitely that concern, and I think this is particularly true with with people who were sitting in jail on misdemeanor cases, who often those cases are very weak. First, there's: no, not a lot of time and investigation put into them because they are only misdemeanours, quorum quote, but people who can't afford their cash bail are willing to just take these play, deals and end. So what what I would you happen?
it does almost encourage more of the same because the prosecutors and works works, and they know that they can resolve the case and they don't have to spend a whole lot of time on the case, but it's a win for them. It's it's not like it's a complete dismissal,
yeah. So I would imagine there is a huge socio economic inequality and how the experience in court is right. There there has to be a poor people, lose poor. People lose all the time that Stephen ovaries quote in making a murderer and there's the certain rather truth in that, but one of the things I think this interesting in the staircase as a comparison to making a murderer is that there you see
a very wealthy defended right who, without the spoiler alert MA, am who did not win despite his his wealth and expert witnesses and excellent council one all that's all
It's not like anybody has enough money to go up against the jug or not of the government. Let's say the kind of resources that the government can bring to bear in most instances is going to be more than any private citizen can do. But when you are poor and you can't even afford a lawyer- and you have no choice on the quality of lawyer, you get and you may end up with somebody like Brendan Dashi got then you're stuck, and you know I don't blame people from feeling like the system is stacked against them and they will have a chance because they don't
money? Is there a practical solution to this and equity? Well, there is no other state. Last study, I saw said that approximately ten times the resources go to prosecution as compared to the defence, and some of it is money you can him
prove the situation. If you bout, I am aware a system designed on we're an adversary system. That means that what you do is you put advocates on both sides adverse to each other and that that, in theory, if their relatively equal advocates on both sides presenting it to a neutral,
act, finer judge, jury. The truth will come out, but when the scales or so tipped that d, the prosecution has much more research, no longer a balanced adversary system anymore. It's
say it's a route. You know if there's never a chance to get started, half the time. So some of it is resources, if you put more money into defending people who are too poor to be able to find their own laws. That would improve the system dramatically, but you also have to couple that with training
those those advocates. So that's that's risk paying the more. They have to be better quality. They have to be trained, have to understand how
a bit of chicken in the egg thing right goes to a trade as a good attorneys. You have to pay them more. That's right, yeah, right! So, like the teacher Zan crisis with the teachers. Yes, it is very much
and you know, and there there's the debate, the Antietam Unions and and merit pay, verses, Longe Empty and all that but see you do have to have certain standards in place so that the people who are getting paid to defend poor people are at least minimally key
couple of doing it, and we have this idea in law called ineffective assistance of council. So you have a right to council. You have a right to effective council on your behalf. If you, if your lawyer powerful word right there of effective, that's how it is with what the devil is in the details, we need time to fine. What's considered effective and what's ineffective here, and so what the Supreme Court has said. Is it you dont second guess, Monday morning, quarterback what a lawyers decision making is if they make in hindsight, looks like a bad judgment, but it was a strategy or tactic that they considered
in investigated and advanced, then its protected from any kind of than in the client frankly is calculated risk that drought in him bearing fruit will tough shit right, but it's gotten water down to such an extent that their cases that have held that a lawyer who falls asleep.
The middle of the trial was not an effective, because all that was in a very important part of the trial. I mean it's insane. You know
may we could talk all day about the flaws in the justice system and where we need to improve them, but but starting with good counsel on
tides. Your prosecutors are to the whole justice system. Is really well that that
so my wife and I remain a bed last night talking about the fact that I was gonna talk to you and be no. I tend to point this out because she's, a very optimistic liberal and I'm occasionally the voice going like well yeah in a perfect world, we'd be doing all these,
things better, that that's from police scene to prosecuting defending to our borders scenario, liquors innumerable
issues is country ass to confront, but we do not have unlimited resources. We don't have you know so, as at a certain point. Sometimes you have to go like well, it's not perfect, but it also might be going as well.
it can go considering. We don't have unlimited resources and if you go to other countries, you go well that a lot more satisfying cracks there. So it is trick
You evaluate what's a realistic expectation of how well any
a number of these municipalities whatever these government systems can function right and it's a good point, an it's. It's a constant challenge of it's one of the reasons, frankly, that the indigent defence system in America has fallen and such was innocent. Indigent defence me
people who are too poor all right, ok to afford a lawyer. They are indigent and they have a constitutional right to an effective attorney so that they must be provided at taxpayers, expense and there's different models, whether its salaried public defenders, the that work on cases are whether their lawyers who are appointed an hourly rate, which is red, ridiculously low Wisconsin now is it? Is it forty hours and hours the lowest in the country from I keep my cry and sincere
like I pay the house cleaner, that you're sure you can get a plumber to come to Europe for our House charge in and out of that they're supposed to pay their their staff if they have any other the rent, their insurance are all then before they get paid paid a dime themselves. The average less study I saw is over that of overhead. Maybe forty five dollars an hour.
Our state, six sixty dollars now or nationally, so, but one reason that it so low and it's been that way. For so long is people charged with crimes? Don't have the constituency in the legislature to lobby for money for us when there are people who want to put money for education or parks or police, yeah or courts, you know, and so it's it's difficult for people to four legislative policy makers to be of a step back and say this is an important value that
We care about in art and our society, our democratic society, the court and justice, and were willing to invest more money in that. Even if it doesn't look like this, you know the immediate return that you would get by having a park right or a swimming pool or whatever it's a tough sell, because probably the assumption of your average citizen, myself included as an all the
es majority. Those people are guilty right, but lay out that we don't assume that just the unit ton of innocent people are getting drawn drug in the core. We would assume that's the anomaly I thank
Well, I, but you would be surprised how many what what point do we accept that the reverse of what John Adam said, which is we or it's ok to two convicts a medicine people, because we want to really get the guilty one. So there's been various estimates of how many people in prison today are truly innocent, actually innocent
and it really ranges from as low as one percent to as high as I think I've scenes, six or eight percent, which is look at the lower end. There's two million people in prison. If all if one percent of them are innocent, that's twenty thousand wrongly convey,
The people. Did you see that quick, Math Monica said Fanny now he could really made a mail order. I love ass master yeah. That's that's very hard to swallow either quickly, yeah, I'm quick, wash click West,
do you feel like most humans are cape?
bore a really really understand.
thing and then really doing burden of proof like are they executing burden of proof like I sat on a jury and in
experience when we were deliberating, I was like this is: what happens when these are the people making the decisions, because a lot of people were not able to do that and not able to remove their own personal histories, ideas and all these things which I know
human, it's hard to do but good question, and it's it's a real challenge because you're after making them
came out, I had the opportunity to speak with people from all over the world with all kinds of different justice systems and juries howdy. It's crazy people sober
How do you do that? And we would rather have a judge like we have here, but you know we have
tradition in our common law, history going back to the british system of relying on a jury of peers, and I frankly we know very rarely wave a jury trial in favour of a judge, even if the people aren't real educated, it's better collectively. I
to have twelve mines, picking something apart than one whom, who, as a judge, who sees things all the time, might become jaded for our eye.
He starts playing the percentages or she starts playing. The percent right
and in one of the problems I think we have with jurors, who don't understand it is true,
the presumption of innocence and the burden of proof, it are not the sort of things that you use in your daily life, so an presence and other one I'll. Take a defendants right not to
justify the tags soul. What happens if your parent and your kid comes up? Their kids are fighting in his eye. He started no, no she's
and back and forth. You know you wanna, hear both sides.
And then you weigh them against each other and decide which one you kids like a new problem.
I probably more often the case somewhere lamentable, but in court you're not supposed to do that. You have this artificial.
Scale, where you're supposed to look at the states, evidence and see? Does that convince you be unreasonable
rather than weighing it against, and so that is different to what you normally do in life. But I think it can be done if you have a judge who cares enough about the the system that can instruct them in a way that people understand and it starts with- jury selects theirs? It there's a judge who is now in retired or senior status, federal judge in Iowa. He started off his his jury selection in this. In this manner, he would get up off of his bench: walk down to the defence costs
table shake, say nothing, shake hands with the defendant turn and look at the jury and say, ladies and gentlemen, members of the jury. I just shook hands with an innocent man.
That will allow yeah now, if, if anything,
you hear pant apply that same principle, then dont be ashamed.
raise your hand right now, and this may not be the right jury for you, and then he goes. I he you. You need to convey these principles in a in a way that people can understand yeah.
Yeah Qana connects more on an emotional to witness. The did. The boss of the courtroom shake the hand of the accuses way more powerful than prowl your explanation of
it is, and I also think that it should be mandatory viewing for every you're other waiting to be picked towards twelve angry man,
ah ha which our future seen as even the fifth with Henry Fond and the others to see the dynamics of of how things go on in a jury room
you need to respect individuals, opinions when you're in that dreary room and one of the most difficult things that is, for, I think in my whole practice is jury selection, because it's it's so complex. Your first of all you're, not picky
Where is your you're picking ones? You dont one right here, trying to diesel and doubting but you're trying to balance that against all of these other cycle dynamics of social interactions, who's gonna be the strong one
our two or three who are going to influence and make these others change their reminding because when you get told people together in a room in particular when they originally strangers yeah, it's very very difficult to predict that there is another ethical pitfall potentially endure de selection right, we listen.
this great, more perfectly legitimate podcast. No, I said that you were right and allow that yes, the history of this dream court, like very profound decisions that changed everything cases here.
and I want homes jurists election, which is, if you are a good attorney, you're, going to be using racial stereotypes. You're gonna be
you're gonna be doing things that in real life would be unethical, yet are almost required of you to provide a great defence sphere say I would disagree with that. Ok, please help me. Ok, because I think that is enough
studies now that have said that when you try and use stereotypes to pick juries or did these lectures, it just doesn't work because
there may be certain cases where that might be true, particularly if you want to use a racial stay or type would say in any one people of color in the air, for whatever reason I'll pick that person
over or I'll. Keep that one rather than another mean an origin
he's try, I'm, U story! Every white person off, I can from the lawyer well, when
we have a case. Where were the the
to really, as you want people to be able to understand, to be really peers. The out of your client understand what they go through and understand the distrustful of police and store Clee the way that they have in our use race against people like you,
client. That might be somewhat worthwhile, but on the other hand, you know you you find like those take. A sexual assault case, for instance, is a little bit counter intuitive but in fact middle aged women. Mothers are the best jurors in those kinds of cases for the process.
You should either for the defence that is very count and the worst are middle aged men who were fathers.
I'm talking about to say you have a teenage NEA fourteen fifteen year old girl, making these accusations and for various reasons, you think, she's fabricated, edges and travel she's, trying to make you get out of trouble and blame someone else,
ever may be the men tender holder,
her daughter up on a pedestal and whereas the mothers who have seen
Their own daughters lie in them and have seen all the peer pressures and things that make teenage girls.
they things mean girls. Here. If I would very much more discerning and sceptical
and so there is an example where the stereotyped doesn't work rime and it takes a little while and experience to be elected in your career to be able to get to that point YAP so ledges. I want to talk about one of the two me them. The most heartbreaking aspect of making a murderer. Witches is Brendan, Bassi I'll, just that was almost too much.
Even consume, because yet again I dont know did you ever happened to see the confessions on frontline? Yes, oh my god.
another one, and I guess you could have cried for two hours. In a nutshell: they think they found this guy who they think murdered his neighbor. He is a very docile sheep. They, after nine hours and interrogation room. He admits something he didn't do. They then
test. Is blood find out? It's not him. So they go back to and they say well, we know someone else was there who was a neighbour?
Durham for eight hours and then he implies another guy. That guy too is a helpless lamb and then they end up putting one,
five or six guys in prison than they finally find the real killer in the need, is so it all together all through these confessions in
the prior to me, saying that I would have said will know and confess something they didn't do, because I wouldn't do that
I also em an empowered six too
dude who you know like there's all these things that I would not have thought of it.
I think there is anything more heartbreaking than this interrogation scenario that happens around the country. Right
in an independent in an Brendan Daisies case, see me
they some mental impairment, to which I would just imagine rioting
it is no way you can unleash while its fairly commonplace.
People say how unusual is, unfortunately, Brenda and ass. His experience is utterly commonplace and problem brought something similar to what happens almost every day in this country. The whole idea that how many parents I have had come to me and say they took my kid.
class and brought him down the principal's office in these and the other place her there. They interrogate them in it. No one calls me and that's not legal, is it well? Yes, I know it's it's, it's not
mean. The case goes away. You can argue it in court and try and I try and convince the court that there was a course of confession. But
the beat the tip of the iceberg. But then, when you M employees, we have this technique that America is really like. The last English speaking part of the world that even uses this technique is called the red technique. Arria Idee, named after a guy who develop these psychologically course of techniques. Only after the, U S Supreme Court, believer not it took him until nineteen. Thirty six,
to rule that you couldn't beat confessions out of people once they finally ruled that then
on our now. Not a word again. Do how do we get conventions on a big hurry? The answer we will have- and so they came up with these techniques and its base- are all these flawed sort of pop social science. It's all been debunked the theory that the first since the police officers are better human, lady, textures and ordinary people,
when it has been proven, not be the case, and so I thought I would almost imagine their work as they get lied to more than most people, so there actually more expecting of July, the more suspicious so at what they do is when they
kept her mind and in that the person there talking too is lying is us is the suspect. Then it becomes this interrogation technique where their taught not to accept denials. They are taught that they can lie
right, that's the part, then that's troubling. They can lie about the evidence they can say Dax
clean your line. No, as we know, you're guilty, we got a fingerprint on it.
as you regulators of they have a video of you that they dont have right. They can say anything they want that. They think will convince you to tell the truth. Now someone says they are.
Video of me doing something I haven't done. An eye
say what I know I haven't done it, but they fucking have a video that at least convince them is certainly going to convince a jury. I'm gonna go down for the
regardless of here's, the thinking you know you're Europe, particularly if you're a poor person, person of color recent immigrant status or something of that nature, and you thinking- oh my god.
They say they got my dna or I got my fingerprint who are they gonna? Believe this guy or
the marginalize Minero inside exactly and then this copy say look you know nor go too bad for you. You can make it look. However, you want, which is what
happened with Brendan. We know you're, not really, you know he may
Did you do this? He forced you to all this and we know what happened. You just need to tell us in an ultimately people, then confess, falsely until dna. Most people believe just like you, that why would anybody confessed to something they didn't? Do
right, and then studies well enough. People are exonerated, they start looking. You know how many of those people confessed or about twenty five percent of them had falsely confessed, and we know when you took a subset of juveniles. It was about forty three percent
falsely confess, and in so then you start looking more. Why why
it's going on in those room most of
interrogations aren't recorded like the war with Brendan. That was new right, that that law had just sat long, Wisconsin just change six months before that. I talk about that in my book. The how that came about that was a real battle. I fought for four years, but still in this country, about half of the states do not require the the police to and to record their interrogations, and so all of these things happen outside of the jury's you they don't really understand and frankly,
Sad pardon brandons cases you, the viewers, are making a murderer, saw more of his interrogation, more parts of his interrogation that were important than his own jury. Did that
oh yeah, his own jury never saw his mother come into the room and say they got to my head and start me Canton immediately yeah, so it's so heart breaking. It seems to be the most malicious of all these different things. Echo
happiness to it is, and I don't think anyone also even takes into account the new.
None of us have ever sat in a room for eight hours. Where's would have gone
I just can't really probably even imagine what the mental strain of being bullied for eight hours in what you do. You just want out of that fucking room at some point. Like your immediate goal, probably supersede your long term goal. That's right, an end, particularly what they found as a sort of a consequence of the techniques being psychologically course of tricky and the subject being vulnerable and somewhere another, whether its youth or mental capability.
or sometimes, in fact, very often, both as independence case, where in a very marginal I status in general in society, I M sure has the right and in no lack of experience with the police say if you ve never been in a few years, soda street tough in you been in front of police before its yeah, you're, smarter, to say: I'm not talking. First of all, our alone
here, but but you know there is hope. I don't wanna ready to take the abandoned ass experience in and think that there's there's no hope, because that scenario can be changed if people want to be changed, and so in California, and in Illinois they have thou, pass laws that prohibit interrogation of youth under certain age or maybe in certain types of cases like an Illinois, any sex or homicide case
fifteen or under you have to have a lawyer present from the idea from the deck and similar in California, Jerry Brown signs of a law recently it its advocates Satan think it should be higher. Seventeen or eighteen, but, as you know, were making baby steps, thou its fifteen or or younger are sixteen. Whatever might be. You know you can't you just need to protect people, because the thing to keep in mind, as in most instance, says when
somebody's wrongly convicted. That means that if there was a crime at all, the real perpetrator got off new yeah. That's another thing. People blow right past right when I think about that- and the Stephen EVA case was a perfect example of that, because in his first wrongful conviction, when he spent eighteen years in prison, voters
a rape, the real perpetrator, who should have been deaf writer again right, did rape again and was a suspect in a homicide and North Carolina. That was never proven, but who knows, however, many crimes and he did and
you multiply that by twenty thousand around the car is a lot of people's lives, who are ruined and perpetrators are getting off in committing additional crimes beyond tell me about
Gore, but tell me about why you wrote it in what what did it was that you were hoping to to get across our help, move that the pendulum in one direction or another well,
I feel, like I've been lucky enough to have an amazing career with all kinds of interesting cases and experiences.
And I always wanted to write a memoir of some sort have
making a murderer came out at sea like this was the right time is about a little
interesting to see the appetite that Moroccans have for this topic. Like we ve had a lot of successful now, yes, doc, you Dramas of Vienna involving very much end.
There was a little bit surprising to me was that Michael Council Dean Strang and I became these heroes were high. That's my
This question will talk about that and when we were just doing our job and has lots of other people like that, and partly what I hope to do with his book is it's it's a little bit of make the making of a criminal offence lawyer what what I went through. So I talk, certainly about making a murderer
but I also use other cases. I've had where there are similar flaws of our justice system too, and I use that all straight what's going on and why and in the end I have suggestions at the end of ways we can try and individually and collectively
prove our system, but I also really wanted people to understand that the criminal offence Turnkeys can be ethical, honest people of integrity that have an important role in our justice system, because that's not the way. Hollywood. Frankly,
portrayed criminal offence journeys for a long, long time, really almost sense, Perry Mason days and there's been some interest in doing a television series based upon my book, there's been a pilot written in based upon a husband and wife
at all events tree, you and Christian could be undesirable and you know that
idea that then it would, it would portray a criminal offence tourney, as somebody who is important for all of these reasons, and in holding up not just the individual that their defending, but the
Our system of justice or you're gonna say I think, that's the poor people mess that it's not actually solely self. Serving to that client is again. You are the co pilot of the legal system, your our collective representative, that we always do have a presumption of innocence and that those burdens approve our Matt and that's to protect all of us. If we should ever find yourself in a crisis situation at I mean to borrow the phrase of one
so she hastened. I belong to wear liberties last champion in many ways, and here we are, they are defending the individual against the government and we have some strange bedfellows these days with libertarians sure who believe government is encroaching too much. Antonyms Khalifa, one of the most conservative Supreme Court justices. Believe it or not, is probably one of the best fourth criminal defence field of my lifetime as he he believed it. He really strengthened the right council how important it was the right to confront year accusers in court and went back to what the founders believed. So what I'm trying to do in this book, as I think, change the mindset of people about our criminal justice system and the role of a criminal offence tourney in and in one of the things that that's been most rewarding to me from this whole issue,
variants of the the notoriety of making a murderer? Is the young people who have written to me and said I am really interested in the law now now and particularly criminal law me, because I'm I'm an appointed my career were I'm seeing a horizon at the end point shower, and I look back and I see all this under funded, it's it's not as a sexy position that people want to a career. That's gonna be interesting if the other gonna work hard, not gonna, make a lot of money, and so you it's like you look at
like an baseball. You know you look at your farm system, minutes kind of thin, yeah yeah. You need to restock it yeah. Well, there was a great great documentary called hot coffee. Did you happen to see the end? It was largely about civil law suits and how successfully corporations have ban at convincing all of us
All these lawsuits are frivolous, so I am familiar with internal reform and all these things a pass. The Mcdonalds
yeah. Well it s total bullshit. The story that I have been told you know this woman has spilled. Coffee on herself walked away with three million hours
That is what I carried around for twenty five years, and that was not the story in any shape, but they successfully convinced us of that. In the point,
They made him that document, which is one that you're making now I think people need to be really mindful of is that we have three branches of government in the city.
Sin has nearly zero sway over at the other to you, you're not going to get up a bill pass through the house, don't care how many times you call your representative, but there is this last play specially with civil,
suits where you can challenge General motors. You can make them meet you in court in if they ve done something that is unethical or dangerous,
you can still manner we monitor with these mega less be them go.
Many agencies or huge corporations. It is the last place in our system. Were a citizen, can challenge injustice right and they try to a road that
corporations try to a road that actively- and so do you know all kinds of entities I n n
I use this as an example in my book of where people can make a difference is not just as a litigant against some big corporation, but is it you're? You know the people
hate that jury summons. When how do I get out of this right? We're doesn't pay any money, it's boring and around all waited long awaited him, but ass the one chance as a citizen that you can directly impact one of our most important that the judicial branch, you know your actively involved in your voice is heard, and people will
listen to what you had to say, and so I really wish people wouldn't look at it like it's the rude canal,
have I'm sure
only in that category, I'd rather shovel your drive.
For a whole winter, but that's a great that's a great thing to remember and something I can certainly do better on a game. Alas, my last question: freeing up had you for a long time. I pray
were you shocked at all by Dean's, huge sex appeal today?
MRS Ries, to you, my wife. Your way,
in love with him all where he is
she also makes you let your more in the category I met you- and I are stuck in this category indeed, really is at the forefront of her heard the Oliver Carnal desires. Well, the echo your wife is responsible and in large part for this enormous
internet heartthrob sensation from it, because a sea
Someone did this tweet, this meme of they took a picture of us. I see it at a very depressing part of the trial was at the verdict press conference and
they put hearts around in girl, cries and see, retreated it with a quote like I'm gonna get a locker and two thousand sixteen just so I can put this up on it.
Got retreated, mines attire and the other is that it was really surreal. Those efforts
if those glamour buzz feats up something where they are, but but
as he has been a mailing others. There are these poles, like you know, are you? Are you a dean Jerry? I Jerry team at areas and was that fund reopened? It irritate your wife Dean Strang in this sheets, Jerry Beating.
ST arouses even saw like there's a whole there's a whole like style revolution based on you guys,
come like norm core and there's, even where obsessed with how you dress in their mimicking. Oh you dress. I mean it, I can't imagine or surreal, but the happened somebody
Railways, lawyer to a lawyer
The act of a case and northern Wisconsin Ameer Ali even digest all that
strange. I made a lot of it was very funny. I mean people heads some a lot of fun with it and I try to be good natured about it and indeed
was that's hard to do, is like two to one in favour of. Emu is excellent, but I I had my followers to your right. This is a pole. They did no magazine people. Seventy two percent said now, so I've been there with you with a cat. So but as my the point I made his twenty eight percent want to date,
that's pretty darn high, that's exactly right. Yes, at all a matter of your perspective, lotta do that's a lot of bodies to have all these young bureau.
All women like unsolicited was I: where were you all when I was young groupies, it would hang out like we were rock stars coming out. They on our shows was amazing and ice,
stood quite understand why you know what we want
I do there. Is it there's a chivalry too there's a there's, a valiant nature to defend it
as well as their there
the varying superheroes. Do you don't like what nights are supposed to do? If there are now living by the code, I can definitely see were like. Protecting me. Downtrodden is very attractive.
Nope did you watch your wife able to emigrate since you were about to get good natured about vaguer natures, I saw them in you long before
He did so. He hasn't my wife says get line.
actually you guys aren't we agree on the ground floor now. I guess
she was. She was good natured about it. Now that the group is didn't bother her seat, she went with me and some other speaking
doors limit, Australia, New Zealand. There is one really cute couple of girls it that hung out for an hour after the show to wait for us,
and they agreed as where these these homemade t shirts.
You know where they had both of the recent called justice warriors.
Extra dean, and I
so that was fun yeah. I hope that you are able to enjoy that, because I do think you you, I can't imagine you get paid for this even every case. In now capacity railway did we were paid. We actually were paid out of the settlement that he got from a civil rights cow cap, and that was that was passed.
Meanwhile, you signed on right. They could have been an expectation of getting to know what happened was that he settled his thirty six million dollar lawsuit for four hundred thousand boy and then his civil rights lawyers took their expenses and there was a total of two hundred and forty left. There was split between dean and I I had a hundred thousand. He did a hundred,
Twenty million tonnes of insects? Symbol stands angrily you and we had to go to monitor it with his sex appeal. He also took on the risk of other expenses, his law firm, as it was more capable of doing that, but but when we think about the hours dean figured it out and there was something like nine dollars an hour. That's pretty good,
somebody's living. But it wasn't the money that we took the case for an in o thou Netflix paid us a penny either you wasn't there
and part of that too. I am so happy to see that there was some kind of downstream reward that was unforeseen in its rare. That simply does then get rewarded in some capacity for having
the right thing. It's kind of wildlife, affirming and encouraging it is it s been very encouraging, like
set, especially when young people are interested in my career as a career choice. Yes,
Well, as I said, I began reading it last night, illusion of justice in truly its of very fond ree, like its, which is very well written. I told you that before we even sat down that I was shocked to see or such a unnatural writer, but you it's it's it's really great ice.
We actually wrote it. Yes, there are you can't. I had a very. I had a very good editor, the tea that Idiot Usher yeah and that helped shape a lot of the structure and organisation,
and did you enjoy? Will you write more books? I hope so in this. Wasn't it
seemed I was I was. It was crazy time in my life, where I was flying all over the world doing these talks and
I did a lot of the writing on aeroplanes in hotels. Frankly, all of this,
source material was on line in this case, because everybody put all the transcripts and documents most of them anyway, I had some that the did make it
the court process, but it was easy enough to be able to travel and right, but it is. It is hard when you're also practicing lawyer, which I am we're real cases
I'm going to say I'm in our work on my own personal book. Now, instead of my clients case right, it's off it's it's a
islands. So maybe I will do some more more writing I hope to, but I can't juggle both. I can't gentle both. I would need to do less of la practice in order to write more of a button
bucks right. Well, I wish you a ton of luck and I'm really glad they're folks, like you that are so smart and so willing to come to the aid of people who need your voice and I hope to talk to you again
Thank you. I appreciated thank here and now my favorite part of the show the black jack, but my soul made Monica Batman
another matter of fact jack. They may do love
down jeez. So we crazy death row is a labour that pays may unfavourable. So please don't try to phase me back with the facts at hand. Monica
checking that my man she's understand him. I don't I
off the rails at the end, the boy my favorite
that song of talked about on Twitter a couple times my favorite part of that song. If so, interesting
basically in the song, make they kill a bunch of people and amazed
it's their minds back into freak mode like right after
in the song thereabout to make some bodies turn called of, but then they switch there
I'm back in the freak mode, and then they go to a hotel with some gales, and I just thought that was a very quick transition from murder to love me ain t yet RARE Harry quick, kill, em Nana,
a fan of murder, followed by lovemaking you're, so traditional thicken, the man. Ok,
yes! So making your murderer season two is on right now on Netflix relieve it, I'm really poem for us to start the may do so. You talk about the birth of forensics in there is a book you said about a new set of cod killing shepherds, it's called the killer of little shepherds, a true crime story and the birth of forensic science by Douglas STAR.
This kind of a terrible title considering well and when you are ready to aim well
but there's an agent there right now, but if you're just saying that's true, killing of little taxes or if that was the working time,
maybe this is it's a gruesome rate, if I mean you, ve gotta get gruesome like that, but real aid is horrific. What you could get away with back them before there, telephones and police departments departments spoke to one another,
We look at it as do anything you wanna, murdering spree here and those Venus and then go to silver like the next day, and no one would not know now TAT S. One thing I wanted to say is after
talking to Jerry, but also after having been on a trial.
He has adjure as a lid again or a defendant or prosecutor, cracked hasn't a Jarrod. You
you can learn Iraq. Will we really good you're? Now it's a very funny apart in thirty rock, where there are trying to say they wrote some, they wrote a script
the rural jerk
sure it is so betcha. So
really really was powerful pound job for job so got anyway,
set on a jury, and I walked away from that experience thanking all of my friend
and who are busy it with their jobs and get the salmon?
and thrown in the trash or ignore it are not my friends any more Jesus had I don't like them k cause
It's so important,
I know I know I am not in the year. I know you are needed
everyone, my mom, I think everyone knows that you're talking to me, I'm talking to a lot of people, not just yoga
I know it says in the constitution that were entitled to it a jury of our peers swam, but I actually think there should be professional
yours, a relieving about this before and I agree with you in theory. In practice, I don't think it's possible that all its there's too there's too
much. I have to imagine the expenditure of mailing all those notices enforcing all that thing. Having other people come in telling him to leave, tell no comeback thrown him. I think I can imagine that that would be more efficient than having allays got a hundred full time. Jurors rules not like there's nobody. There
cases all I mean the joy so big right. This company,
Four rooms are in those out like a bunch of Florence, maybe a billion as a billion.
Or is it then that there is a billion wrote a million
that does her.
Oh there's a la that's, why all these, as we most of these cases in general, get like please now of course, you're like there's not enough for you
sources, the even get what we have now, even ten percent of the cases brought, could never be try and so that the problem with professional drivers and also have to pay so much that people would choose that as their job
but I think it should also. We have an abundance of fuckin lawyers in this country and people going to law school and, I think part of their education. Like you do a residency as a doctor. I think they should have to. I think, based that should be the poor people that have to go sit on juries Pappy they can neither class has further crimes.
Is he gonna be jury? So you may know the law right, but that is still that is not even close to the amount of people that way would require.
It's just a numbers issue. I think a diary, it's great, as you do know that can't be outfoxed. Sorry, a Mack truck discretion allows
there's another forward. Oh yeah yeah yeah, but you know what it is guys it. I want to make our Magyar on again and comfortable, but I've had a kink in my neck. Do you know about this
me. Oh there we go much more fluid of air
I've been gotten by that trick before, where seven hides a water bottle in there and in the near, like Digby, keep like the friends of my men have succeeded in tricky me
masters, because they act like their next morning for like fifty minutes before this slow lotta foundation, they lay not attract they like, and then they did. They get that water bottle behind them neck meagre and they crack. I've had a full fledged panic attack more than once thoughts.
Rock their own neck right in front of me as exciting as either had this folded the side. You know it's a very exciting, like I don't think
I would even notice
You know, it's interesting is the you. You yeah you and I we ve found, are so different in that when we watch things, I immediately pinpoint different things about the person's anatomy, yeah and
What it in you don't even see it somehow thing is that when you're pointing it out, it takes a lot appointing before you recognize agenda,
I want to deal with my mommy thirty crews in town is where I got it from, because you can't watch really afraid of anything without her gun.
That guy weren't eyeliner, what's goin out the tone of his forehead,
What's it like, she is all over, what's happening with people's faces, Trysdale, yeah, yeah and Anna. My pants don't do that. Ah, ah,
What is all white people on tv? Maybe they just they there soon they look they just can't see.
When they're watching friends, they realise that there are six different people on the show. Now, ok,
Don't even do that in life is actually I love that about you.
proud of that of yours, and I really want I mean I don't know I'm proud of it of myself, because ITALY
still. We earn something, I'm just not observant like it would not know few actually, cracked, her neck Ryan or something or my headphones
sideways to my feelings. I hate me six,
oh yeah, and some interesting invited, but I like that I grew up in an environment with like people were not picked on ever in a way it was not like they are against
king. I did like they're not seeing it so there never pointing it out, and there never doing that. I really like that. You're having those grow, but you,
also- and that's where you know always argue in appointing the step up his be me
no, sir, I'm just like being observed by all the guys ear loads are seven inches long nets. Yes,
dressed aiming gets me because the barometer as if they were sitting Marin you set it, wouldn't hurt their feelings, an ominous a ninety percent of the time. Yes, you can
Watch tv that way or your everyone at times, even in your living room, I levy tv. Now,
Ok, so you're saying I give you turn a news channel. We know which one anything is preposterous. What they're saying here that you should have that opinion because of their in front of you, you would not want to say that to me now there in front of me, and they were saying that I would totally say whatever I wait around to the wood. I just made about point terrible now urging one point: one born AGA love, love, fifteen Monica we just learned about ten to thirty years ago. So anyway, just just please go server. Jury, yeah, K, issue, Terry Duty, it sucks, but it's also sort of interesting Wi Fi actually found it very interesting, and I just might smart people
juries, yeah they're, making all the decisions and its kits scary job some real person's life is
How do you make a blank cheque, asylum, core dramas, so the conviction and incarceration rates for white versus black people, a two thousand and fourteen university in Michigan LAW, school study, really quick, great universe and I'm gonna believe the studied great morality, rousing fourteen soap for years out, but still found that all other
factors being equal black offenders, where seventy five percent more likely to face a charge, carrying a mandatory minimum sentence than a white offender who committed the same cry: seventy five angels twice ass, likely the United States currently houses the world's largest prison population within incarceration rate of roughly six hundred and sixty six inmates per a hundred thousand people among whites. The rate is four hundred and fifty and maids per hundred thousand people. The incarceration rate for black people is over five times higher at two thousand three hundred and six.
And made her a hundred or simply five times higher hereafter? So the only other thing about this, I think it some sometimes in. I don't agree with this opinion of her people dismiss these is going all will by people are committee more crimes at their. They deduce that from it, but results
but on a data, maybe have some on the on the burner. Right now, which is even when they get tried for the same crime, would same evidence that the conviction rages traumatic.
We hire that's what that was the first part yeah. If I were you listening more or yeah worry seventy five percent more likely to base a charge
Well. That was for a minimum sentencing, but even of two guys get tried with me
jaywalking ones, white ones, black the odds are the black eye getting found guilty of that crisis, the White guy, but this is higher stakes, the minimum sentences, which we just watch it documentary about that. That was said the same.
hence there are minimum minimum sentences. Dicey, yeah Jerry said two million people are incarcerated right now in two thousand. Sixteen the present policy initiative estimated that in the united,
It's about two million two hundred and ninety eight thousand three hundred people were incarcerated, almost one
hundred chose one percent of our population ass behind bar hear ye
you said: is thirty thousand dollars you to kill someone behind bars? According to the Very Institute of Justice, incarceration costs an average of more than thirty one thousand per inmate per year. Nation wide in sums
eight it as much as sixty thousand arriving in California in New York, its higher really expensive here, and we taught the bow the percentage of violent crime, verses, drug offences, and I did pull a
regional aid for an onion from prison policy, dot, org and say prisons. Violent crime is more which was entered,
Personally I was ok. Was the majority of people incarcerated have committed a violent crime dinner? What percentage? Well, we could do a symbolic man,
Good luck to you on our absolutely came state presents one
million three hundred and sixteen thousand, that's it
poor one million three hundred and sixteen thousand one point: three million shot. Yes, ok, violent crimes are seven hundred and eighteen thousand of those ok sets about sixty five percent. While I was bath dear, oh, really feel some. I compliment with that. Ok estimation. I can't check you,
without pulling out my phone and doing that so sure draw really quenches for funds. It takes one second, so it was seven hundred and eighteen, seven hundred and eighteen thousand her ok divided by
one point: three million fifty five percent: ok, ok I'll buy ten points out the robbery
when I'm terribly know those guys and then drug offences are two hundred thousand. So that's about eighteen percent, so that was interesting
because we had said violent crime was not, and it s also state press your frederick,
Scott got way more, it's definitely more unending convicted category for federal prisons. Drugs are eighty two thousand and violent is thirteen.
Ok area is a big gap, a guy anyway, so yeah interest in rhyme. There are five times as many drug offenders in federal prison them on the crime.
and again people were policy like well. There's more people doing bad drugs like they will see a problem with that they would just say
Like yeah, there's rubbing drug problem here, young people need to be imprisoned right. That's Porsche Rail deal. The drug problem exists
yeah you're, the old medical issues by incarcerating people yeah, I agree speaking of that the seer cereal season, three is so
good season. Three s, town, that's a town.
You sound bang, cereals,
in three came out, maybe a month month and a half ago. Each episode is about some element of the Cleveland. I want to say FUCK, Cleveland Court system.
so like one first episode was about a case and then the second of the episodes are one of the judges in that system really good Zog, more perfect.
My favorite surfing the air and a little bit in its belt as e r. I am. I am Agus allowed people on Twitter,
I looked for cereal as we tolerate lie cereal ized yet well the yet what we're recommendation
for cereals yeah, the other versions, breakfast cereal
because your derive show how silly loved applied cast about breakfast cereal
it's just cereals round in general. Really you could
there is a great movie about Kellogg in Battle Cry,
Michigan, where most of the breakfast here is our are made yeah. He had some weird health retreat back then, and he was obsessed with the consistency of your poop
animal movement. That's why you like? Yes, all of his medical prescriptions
bald evaluating your stool and then try to get it to be a certain consistency, Matthew,
Eric was entities with cereal. It was answer Anthony Hopkins in in Matthew, broader issues pretty interesting movie. So it makes me think you could you actually could do want. I, let's do I, on dialogue, does a murder to, and at any time you ve got like a family empire of others. A murderer always always Jerry set tunnel, really powerful anecdote during this apis said I not burden of proof a case. The judge came down
at the beginning of the trial. One shook the defendants hand remember those sad when eyes yeah. He said, ladies and gentlemen, I just shook hands with an innocent man of so called so good, but should be required.
now again, if you're the family member of a murder victim, I now I'm sure you ve otherwise, and I- and I too would feel that way, but we as a collective have to make better decisions, and that is the system works best everyone's presumed innocent yeah
also Norm corps was not invented after Jerry indeed
it was now. That's. Obama landed, ah love the thing tat. They start
fashion. Rumour you wanted. You basically said that day dammit I got this all be a factor.
nor I still really like sat when you do that you have a real war. Listen! I can see that you're right but itself. One thinking those two cutie pie started a fashion movement,
now it sometimes famines fairytales, I believe, a fairytale. You know you can catch and because this is this is it you know indicative of a larger problem in the world that happens or people want to believe things, even though they here, if they hear the truth, but they don't want to believe that true,
I'm formation bias. Our North Korea is not invented by the hungarian deem, although they do fit. That mould very nicely very nicely. Maybe,
This tells me to best examples of norm core, while most people say sign found is the best example
that might bring me find out when he was not entirely true, because in context he wasn't he
actually dressing semi hip back then yeah about that
It wasn't like you noticed. Was this guy doing, whereas
with cheering dean you're like a look at me, you are really aware of that. They were a norm core well
oh, I see I totally disagree. I think it's exactly is in there just wearing clothes that are completely average
yeah and I'm not sticking out violence
I'd love both those guys and I loved how they dress, and I thought it was like that. I looked out like that's what a person should think. Like
fly exact, covering my genitalia. Let's just get out the important business saving me Andy's, with the exception of me on these new categories, pampering yourself with that's that
that went out on the Norm core wait. A second
I'll tell everyone I'll be honest about it, that there was a fact in thereabout ballistics and only thirty or forty percent have to match, and I just couldn't find that statistic. I asked my aunt whose a lawyer and she didn't respond on my email:
So there is no way for me now and how that sounds. Unlike her
laws and their shareholders, you just like, I can't be an endless source, maybe she's sick of it. What if every time she saw commercial on tv, she'd text, you have just watching this commercial for pizza,
what about commercials? Do you think they were at a pizza hotter? That was a sat now
but this is part of my job.
I also believe we saw your other commercial. I we're on our Lubbers retreat. We saw
your IBM, commercial, railway, squealed with joy early days, you is, it starts. The commercial and you're gonna put your best foot forward, which in this case for semantic, appeared-
nine years gray, and it was on the world series- really
Keep ending up in all these big big play off games, as you are in your and much of football games to hang girl Terrio shop for some norm core. Nor are they hoping that put your fingers as a backup engineer,
really. What do you mean? Where does a girl you take the? Can you put it between your fingers in a tap on the top of a cannon drives dip into the corner? The can those nice and dance when you put up put with a pinch between your cheek and gum? Oh so you can do without the can practices would
herds. Do like me when I was young. I was a cool thing. You could do yeah rise
I love you.