Jonathan Haidt is an author, moral psychologist and Professor of Ethical Leadership at New York University's Stern School of Business. He sits down with the Armchair Expert to discuss moral panic on college campuses, the benefits of independence in childhood and the inherent difference in moral attitudes between the political left and right. The two talk about the failure of American systems, the ways in which we are breeding a generation of anxiety/depression and Monica and Dax pontificate on whether incest is immoral in the fact check.
Jonathan Haidt is the author of The Righteous Mind, The Happiness Hypothesis and The Coddling of The American Mind. Subscribe to Experts on Expert: http://bit.ly/exponexp
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hey, hey whole Riley
how to make it a little more
no like scratchy
Riley yeah, that's great! So what doing there? If you didn't put
when do together is it's the holiday season. We got a little,
in a class ho ho ho and then, of course, we went right back to O'Reilly's, where we like to end up at all times. Today we
a very, very interesting Gaston
I fell in love with his verbiage on SAM Harris Podcast, so did Monica Jonathan Height, which is really the first time we. We say that about cereal, too
we really bonded over his episode of SAM Harris well in in fact,
he- was our introduction to SAM Harris yeah. That was the very first episode of waking up that I listened to per Jedediah Jenkins suggestion yeah! Well, you guys are going to meet Jedediah Jenkins. Very special friend of ours will need to tease that yeah, no, not
just not bad. This is generally in here, yeah he's a very interesting guy and he he seems to have his finger on the pulse of all things, intellectually, stimulating a lot of things I found my way to have come
through Jedediah twenty he steered as to Jonathan Height and SAM Harris. Are
ostensibly, and it was a very fascinating debate. We both kind of fell in love.
Jonathan, so is very exciting for us to have him on the podcast
Jonathan is an american moral psychologist and professor of ethical leadership at New York, university, stern school of business is a smarty pants.
and he gets into it. Jonathans written several books flourishing, the positive psychology and the life well lived, he's also written
happiness. Hypothesis, the right-
it's mine and he is here currently promoting. The book
the coddling of the american mind
please enjoy Jonathan Height experts is brought,
by cash app
You already know cash app is the number one finance app on the app store, but you might not know is that you can also put cash in your wallet with the cash card. It's the only debit card that offers instant rewards and comes packed,
premium features, not even a credit card can offer like boosts, save up to ten percent whole foods. Chipotle shake.
check an more of your favorite spots or even one dollar off coffee. Every time you swipe your cash card at coffee shops across the country, the cash card puts you in control of your money, with extra in a safety features that let you pause your card with a touch. Unlike a credit card, there are no fees ever in a credit check, isn't required to get one
we're not using the other cards anymore. Download cash app now get your cash card for free visit,
app store or Google play market now and, of course, when you download the cash and enter the referral code
arm chair. One word: you receive five dollars in the cash:
apples and five dollars across the Columbia Gorge. A nonprofit organization that my sweet, sweet, mom works for up there in Oregon helps kids in foster care. It's a true win, win so download the cash app and get your cash card. Now he's not
I use your name. Often does a shock you or hopefully flatter you, but I am quoting you pretty regularly a dinner parties and stuff, and every time I get to your last name, just panic sets in
All I'm not full of hatred, its height height, I'm a dyslexic, and it's it's. It's scary everything so Jonathan Height is here and I just want to say,
by saying Mon
can kind who talk a lot about SAM Harris's podcast
the reason I even discovered his podcast. With someone told me you have to listen to this episode and it was your first appear
You guys attempt to bury a hatchet or figure out what is seated yeah, I shouldn't say attempt, but it was such a thrilling conversation I recommend
everybody listen to that? It is it got. There were moments where I was driving. I thought I'll. Just hang on keep up keep up, keep up, because
you guys kind of start arguing about whether or not there's
rose that would apply intergalactic away yeah and whether some an animal would pro create a sexually. What that would do to individualism all these things. It was meant to
candy times, ten, just what a delicious interview
wasn't. It turned me on to SAM the more approach like nuts like white candy. I don't want to be can't. I want it to be cold.
In our normal, healthy yeah, you're right- yes, yes, it was a very local carbohydrate
high protein shake butt butt butt plant based. So of course he protein, it was the protein of debates, but I have been since senior TED talk. I've read
much of righteous mind. You've written also the happiness hypothesis right, just made it under the New York Times bestseller list you have a phd in psychology and
you are currently a professor in ethical leadership at Nyu, stern, school of business, and you just have the most incredible take on so many things we care about on the show, and it comes up a lot. So you have written a new book,
call the coddling of the american mind and you read it with Greg. Look Jana off another scary name for me. Tell me quickly what it was about this topic that drew you to it. So I taught for seventeen years at the University of Virginia. I love
teaching students were great. I moved to Nyu in
eleven to the business school. I didn't know
business at the time. I was really just studying moral and political psychology, but I I had the the great
mission to land a one year temporary position at Nyu Stern. When my last,
when the righteous mind was coming out and I and I loved it there. They offered me a job, and while I was teaching just some weird stuff started happening in my teaching students taking offense to things that seemed completely inoffensive and at the same time we started hearing the first. This is to to
two thousand and fourteen the first article started coming out about trigger warnings and safe spaces,
terms. I mean we all heard of safe spaces like in Srebrenica in you know in Bosnia in the nineties, but the idea that a classroom should be a safe space. Safe from critique of criticism is when you, when strange ideas and Greg looking on off, who is the president of the
foundation for individual rights and entertaining I got here. I even house right here. In fact, we got you already foundation for individual rights in education. I'd met him through a mutual friend at a party, and he invite
the lunch to share an idea that he had here. He was for about four feet of for fourteen years, he'd been fighting for free speech rights on campus. That mostly meant pushing back against administrators who kept trying to restrict students, free
speech rights in order to protect themselves at the university from lawsuits from bad publicity
students generally want free speech. The students don't want to be told what they can and can't say, but suddenly in two thousand and thirteen, two thousand and fourteen Greg started noticing that students were asking for a tech
shin from words they were saying: hey, you know. If the speaker comes to campus it'll be traumatizing leaves somebody has to walk this speak. We can't have this go forward and his two three asking for trigger warnings apply to certain books. We can't you can't just teach
week. Myths, you know it is there. Is there a missed, involve rape, you can't. You can't tell a story about rape in a classroom. What? If, what, if this dramatizes someone to re traumatize is them, and so this was brand new and grants idea was that students were using the exact cognitive distortions that he had learned not to do in learning
going to behavioral therapy, so Greg is prone to depression and he had a suicidal, a horrible depression in two thousand and seven and he credits Learning CVT,
next year, with saving his life and in cbt for those
you don't know it's a technique of cleaning up your thinking, because we all do this stupid stuff. We all do could
if I sing you know no, I'm late for the interview. I know now that they're going to hate me and they're not getting the job and then I'm going to type or in a lot. You know we all do catastrophizing discounting the positives like there's, good and bad things, but
focus on the bad mind. Reading labeling, we do all these distortions. Some people do them a lot. Most of us do
usually it's in an often just biochemically, driven right, you, you, you you're lacking enough serotonin or dopamine to keep you focused on the gratitude list. Well, I would never say that some of that some psychological thing is John,
explained by a biological imbalance. But what I would say is it is clear
that when the mind is in a depressed state, when the
and is more focused on threats, and it's
energy and all the symptoms and feelings of being depressed. Then it's much more prone to do this disordered thinking and the amazing discovery that Erin back made he's the found one of the founders of cognitive therapy at the University of Pennsylvania in the nineteen sixties. The amazing discoveries he made is that, while depressed people think this all the time, think this way all the time. If you can even briefly get them to stop doing that. If you can briefly get them to question their catastrophizing assumptions, they get a moment of relief and maybe just for a few minutes, but suddenly things feel less gloomy, more hopeful and in those few minutes, then you can talk about other things and so best discovery was that it's a two way street between the depressed state and it is sort
thinking. If you clean the thinking, you cure the depression. That was the amazing discovery, and this was back in the heyday of freudianism. So in the 1960s, everyone thought well, if someone is depressed, it must
because they you know they wanted to sleep with their mother and killed her father, whatever something unresolved, oedipal conflict. And what that showed is that you
just change. The thinking and you can solve the depression and network
Zaidi. It works for eating disorders that works for a broad variety of psychological problems. So great was a big fan. He read my book, the happiness hypothesis where I talked about cbt, so he wanted to talk to me about his idea that somehow or other universities seem to be teaching because
distortions to students, and they were therefore demanding protections from books. Imagine college students saying don't expose me to a book or speaker. This is
The millennials were not like. This is a very important point. People think all
Lenny's on college campuses. There are coddled and snowflake. No that, first of all, it's not millennials. Millennials are fine. It begins with birth here in nineteen. Ninety five, it students who were born in nineteen, ninety five and after this is sharp generational ship, and we talk about that later, why that is, but when they show up on college on college campuses around two thousand and thirteen twenty
fourteen. That's when all these new ideas come in. You also make a distinction, which is useful. Just 'cause people would be screaming until we acknowledge it.
That say certain publications of pointed out that this isn't a ubiquitous situation. This is actually
affecting primarily universities
elite universities on the coast and what not right. So
yeah, so we're in the middle of an age of moral panic. That is
in a culture, war, the there's left, wing, media, right wing, media and each side.
I'd. Really wins by by putting forth a
Astra fighting diagnosis in other right is not season they're going to take over now the left is you
you know well well, well whatever it is. These days is also the way the the the left is snow. Flakes students who you know can't stand free speech and the right
buddy is that there are problems all over the place, but neither panic is correct, and so there are big changes on college camp.
is in the dynamics around speech, but it there are four thousand five hundred college campuses in this country. Most of them are non. So
active resit nonresidential on most of them, nothing is happening if
map out where the shout downs, the really dramatic stuff, is happening, it's mostly at elite schools in the northeast and along the coastal strip of the West Coast. So you had a few events here at Claremont Mckenna in LOS Angeles Berkeley
at Evergreen near Seattle, since some of your listeners will be very familiar with these stories. Others will be like what would I talking about
which is that's, what's relevant and less. You follow this stuff. If you, unless you've seen some of these like at evergreen or some of these different times, it's happened to me.
out on video. If you don't see it, it's hard to imagine specially. If you went to college like I
graduate in two thousand and nine, and I didn't witness anything like that. I could have never imagined that this would be happening. That's right! If you graduated before
in twenty twelve earlier that you didn't see any of this. None of this stuff was on campus. You probably never heard
micro aggression, safe space, trigger warnings, bias response teams walking through one case this. I think
it's a really revealing interesting one, so it was.
We change your name. We call her living in the book. Are you caller Dax
this is the only number. I believe me you don't. Let me make clear so this is the calling of the american mind but really great, and I don't like the title that was made up for us. We love this. We got to make up the subtitle the tie. The subtitle is how good intentions and
add. Ideas are setting up a generation for failure. That's what the book is about all so
there was a latina students or parents at immigrated from Mexico. She was born in California,
and she wrote an essay in a student publication. She wrote an essay about how marginalized she feels she doesn't fit in. She says our campus climate and institute.
Culture are primarily grounded in western white CIS heteronormative upper to upper middle class values. I should
bad time at Claremont Mckenna, she feels she doesn't fit in the dean of.
Been swimming in Mary Spellman reads:
article online then right to private,
tour and I'll read you, the entire text of Spelmans Email Olivia. Thank you for
writing and sharing this article with me. We have a lot to do with the
Legend community, would you be willing to talk with me? Sometime
about these issues. They are important to me and the dean of students, staff and we're working
and how we can better serve students, especially those who don't
our Eric Mold, I would love to talk with you more best dean, Spellman,
well, as you imagine, the campus of in protest, the woman who got to see
we'll put up on her face page, I wouldn't imagine yeah, so the the woman who Livia posted on her facebook, page and
and said, and here's the kicker she says I guess I just don't fit that
Cmc mold feel free to share, and so people-
shared it. They were, they were outraged. Outraged at the dean would suggest that
it didn't fit in that she didn't belong now, so the entire con
Percy was over the use of the word mold,
single one single word, that's right and it's clear from the context
because Olivia had said, I don't fit this fit this white in a normative. I don't fit this mold.
what she basically said and so dean selling is clearly empathize.
She's trying to say yes we're trying to help students who feel they don't fit in in the new call out culture that burst onto the scene?
because of social media, so it was really by two thousand and fourteen two thousand and fifteen. It was really intense at some places. Olivia was in a call out culture and she,
get stated well with this is our analysis course we don't know what's going on in her mind, but the way of credit culture works is if you can find some way
to say that somebody else is racist, sexist fish, heteronormative marginalizing, you call them out, and then you get credit for calling out that kind of bigotry and so
there were protests there. Where there is, some students went on hunger strike until you get elevated right. If you're someone who is pointed out someone who's infringed on these rules, then you, your prestige right, is in you get something from it. You get a cultural capital from exactly that's right. That's the key to this whole
Thank you, Libby is not a bad person
which is a young woman in a prestige economy, as it were in a
social culture in which you get points you get status. You people look up to you. If you get these points and she
she was playing the game as she found at least that's our analysis of it. So ultimately, of course, the university couldn't possibly fire Selman, I mean
clear she done nothing wrong. She was trying to be helpful university couldn't fire her, but they did nothing to defend her with students
going on hunger strike, we will not eat until she's fired well in
now because I have heard you talk about this before, but but Paul a new element in this is also there's a pattern which is call out, but then also is
date some demands right? So since
the training, always diversity,
and so you who always demand diversity, training and then also
at least someone must be fired for this transgression yeah right. Well, that's right, because he can't hear what what's most
psychologically satisfying is to burn them to death at a at a state. That's what that's really what we want to do yeah! This is my malady in some closure to that. Yes, that's right! This with the two traditional punishments are banishment. You have to get them out of your community and then they're dead to everybody or burning by
fire, so shooting with a gun isn't satisfying finding them.
satisfying you want them to either disappear or burn to a crisp, and fortunately, there's been
No actual violence. That's that's important to say, but yes,
is a kind kind of an auto defay quality, the these sorts of moral panics. These sorts of witch trials basically crop up throughout history, not
urban Allison chapter six. We come back to this episode and we say it's the dynamics, the psychology of a witch
trial. Yes, and I don't want to derail your your momentum, but I want to say, what's scary to me: is that, under this kind of parody,
There is zero room for anyone to acknowledge that they've aired correct their behavior get redemption. That's right! That's right, so I think it's very important to think about what game are we playing in any anything? We do in that where, where there's often a kind of an
This is game that we're playing, and so one game is the truth seeking game. You can have a discussion and trying to figure something out together
this is what we try to do in seminar classes, especially another game that you might have
is the the war game. I I hate you I'm trying to defeat you it's a contest in and
would never grant that you're right about anything. I my job
to humiliate your defeat, you another game that we might play is the let's help him gain like there's some problem ever going to cooperate and figure out how to best help. Something is all kinds of games that we could be playing and
you know, if you have goals of reforming an institution, let's say a college campus, because a lot of these protests are taking place these issues to take this on college campuses. If your goal is to solve a problem, you be open to all kinds of evidence. You be open to evidence that what works you would not write people off for ever. You would be you'd be open to people making mistakes, but unfortunately the game that,
is becoming dominant in many campuses is exactly this prestige economy. Where my goal is to call out thinners, and then it
it uses. I believe it uses a deep and ancient religious psychology. We create something as sacred
we all circle around this sacred thing, we're all very vigilantly look
sing for sinners were looking for sacrilege and blasphemy. I think you can't understand: what's been going on college campuses since two thousand and fifteen without the concept of blasphemy, people who say blasphemous things who questioned diversity, policies in particular. That is the most dangerous thing you can do on a college campus today. If you question diversity policies question whether they
mark question. Whether we should have this kind of training. You'll really run a risk of a very, very powerful reaction against you, which might demand that you be fired. Yes,
button. You can quite easily get you just labeled permanently as a racist, but I think we should step back to four steps in just in a nutshell, explain, or at least why I,
the world of academia has worked the institution,
as some theories, it's always
being refined, it's always open to critique everyone.
An opportunity to voice a complaint and then it just grows and evolves and gets better, but in a zero sum, win lose game. As you point out, that's not the goal
now the goal isn't to help perfect the mess
truth. It's to get victory. That's right! The key is
is what we might call institutionalized disconfirmation. That means we all,
I ideas we of hypotheses very well known effect in psychology, is called the confirmation bias
I believe that eating know eating oranges will cure my cold faster, which is what my mother
told me the vitamin c will cure cold. So whenever I have a cold, I would take vitamin c
and lo and behold the cold would go away and it therefore I confirm that it works. You know really stupid because
you know it turns out. It actually doesn't make any difference, but I didn't see this confirmation, it's only if I tried to diss
like by say, ok this time I won't take vitamin c and let's see if it actually measure how long it takes yeah, so in any
and to the community. This goes back to the you know, the early days of the enlightenment, when they were coffee shops, at which
men would get men of science are made of me or they would gather, and they would
for their ideas and someone would criticize them. That's the crucial thing credit criticize
yes right, it's imperative, that's right, so we all have a confirmation bias. We all want to believe what we
currently believe. Another people do us the favor of criticizing it. This is one of my favorite things. You talked about your explanation of confirmation. Bias is the one that resonated the most with me and you just point out. Quite simply, we are almost incapable individually of being objective. It's our brain is not wired to help us be objective, but that the beauty of systems in and of groups is that
systems can be objective right. That's right! That's what I really want people to keep their eye on as we go through this culture war as our societies come.
art in a lot of ways. Our success is not based on how smart we are it's, based on how good our systems are
and the best systems are those that bring out what's great about human beings and that temper what's bad about us. So my second book the righteous mind
I go deeply into our evolution, how we
Bob the social creatures to
our bodies, dance around a fire, worship, rocks and trees, this sort of proto religious.
Of the early religious forms are very similar all around the world, and it's only fairly recently only a few one thousand years ago that, after agriculture, after large scale society, it's only for it's only then that we start to get large scale, religions and bid gods, but
jen is, is really the natural nor form of it is much more and a mistake. Small scale bindings will group together with rituals, and I think this is
keep in mind, because certain systems take us out of that.
systems allow us to interact with strangers. They allow us to create these vast
in secular societies that are that are diverse and that leave room for people to live lives they want, but the tribal is
in the ancient religious psychology can come roaring back very quickly. We allow that to happen with sports in a controlled way, and that's fine, that's just
That's just like fake tribalism, yeah. I have a chapter in the race as mine right, no, I'm not a football, I'm not a sports fan, but you know the couple times
went to a uv, a football game. It was really thrilling, it was real tribal. Then I love you. I love you. I love the community
no singing in unison, getting drunk together, or you know, cheering exalting lamenting when you lose. Those are tribal practices, they're deeply satisfying. Unfortunately, a lot of these tribal practices are coming back, not just in our political life, where they've never really gone
but in many more aspects of our daily life- and this is- will get into identity politics later there are various forms of it.
But to extend that we're dividing up. We have a. We have a diverse society, extender encourage ing, more divisions among people and tribe, more tribal identities. I think it's overall
well in well e, yes, and so something I'm always on my soapbox about. Is that
We seem to have a pretty broad
understanding that our brains and our bodies evolved in an environment we no longer inhabit, we seem to recognize that are
rain has bad wiring for eating
we are encouraged to eat as many calories as humanly possible when it tastes good, because at one time that served us quite well, because food was scarce, has very good wiring for eating in the environment of evolutionary adaptation, the ea! Yes,
there anymore. We down. As I say I, my my brain things- that Snickers will only be in bloom this week and I should eat as many as I can. Okay, just take that line, that's wonderful yeah so, but when I think people don't date so they've made that connection. I go. You know
our our biology is working against us at this moment where you can go to seven eleven and eleven anytime a day and eat too much food, and I think it's really, I
all these vestigial be. You know, benefits that no longer help us, but I don't think people recognize the power of being a group animal, but now these things we need to be,
pair of them at all time. Our tribalism, our in group out group, predilections week we have to monitor them,
as rigorously as we would monitor what we're eating. I want to ask
you this, because I floated this by my wife, the other night and she hated it. But I do think I'm on to something which is- and let me first
that I am a white man. I have all the opportunity in the world. I have a ton of privilege that a lot of people don't have. I recognize that I also recognize that the whole system is pretty much run by white men, and I I don't deny that the lopsided ness of the power structure. My fear, though
is that a lot of people think that if we remove the white male from these systems that somehow the
things are going to work magically.
All of a sudden, my argument to my wife was this
systems are inherently flawed. The the the power structure when you put anyone in power like this, what you're really seen as a bad outcome of anyone being entrusted with power, and you could look at any of this city throughout history when they
empower they were still shooting on some other group. It's is not unique to just the White Mouse so sure, let's definitely without saying, let's get the diversity definitely proportional to the country as much as we can
but also recognize the outcome.
what you think the system itself might need some perfect team, because the
sample? I was thinking the most explicitly when I was talking to her about it is yes, most police forces could benefit from more diversity, but also black cops in the black community are DIS,
liked by the black citizens, so the job itself, for whatever reason, by its current design or in practice. Somehow that makes them assume the same thing they hated it off. A white cop in there's, still gonna be a problem. We have an address something else. That's happening, okay, perfect. That is a
actually the great inside of social psychology that, when you look
the world and you see bad things happening if it's one
person who does a terrible thing? Maybe it's that person, but if it's a whole group of people
or doing something over and over again, it's probably something about the roles, institutions and social structure of the situation- and this is this
Milgram experiment, a the classic experiment about. Would you shock someone to death if an experiment tells you to what milligram found? Is that two thirds the
all the way to the end of the experiment, and it didn't much matter about your personnel,
what mattered was little things. He manipulated about the environment if there is
disagreement among experiment with, and nobody went along. All sorts of,
manipulations had a huge impact on behavior. So I think your point is that if you put people in the position of being a policeman weather, we
better black, there's, still
Why do some of the same things that lead to hatred of pulls they're, going to join a new in group? And now the
the out group and they're going
of their own little microcosm cult
within their and they're, going to do all the things that anyone of US primates would do as a social animals. So we need to look at those things. I guess it's my
a base of all that. I completely agree, and this we
The time when we're choking on moral outrage, we have way too much moral outrage and I think, taking that kind of social psychological perspective in which you don't see a world full of good and evil people. Rather, you see complicated social
tuitions that have some negative externalities and obviously
all seen the videos of black men getting shot when they had their hands up or they're. Not yet we see so terror. Something wrong clearly is something wrong, and so for students to be focused on the injustices of the,
criminal justice system. That's great! I mean there's reasons to do that, but I think a problem is that they've been taken. They've taken that same mine,
I certainly applied it to universities and everywhere else where they find themselves, and often these are incredibly anti racist program.
Institutions that are trying really really hard to do what they can and so to take this confrontational attitude into
as Olivia and her fellow students did economic cannot again. I don't know what the you know all kinds of greens. I can't judge too strong
I wasn't there. I don't know what what exactly this is were, but the but from our what we could find out. The grievances had nothing to do with Spelman. It's not as though
He had said insensitive things and therefore they were targeting her. So at least, we know that there was
justice in terms of them, targeting this poor
moment you can see her crying on the videos. When you see the videos of her students, circling her and airing their grievances,
hello anyway. Yes, I, like your social psychological approach, stay tuned arm chairs there
we are supported by Sonos the coolest
lines in my house, an yours Monica it's a nice device
It really is we watched this weekend with the whole family, which is exciting
my kids are little and I was wondering if they were ready for this and they were Christmas vacation, which I love,
watching into the holiday season. Yes, and it sounded so nice, it really did sounded like
we were surrounded and enveloped in the the music.
Sounds of the movie actually, so no should be called so nice, oh my god
they should change their name to so nice, yeah or maybe just a tag. That would say so no says so. Nice also know speakers connect wirelessly, you don't have to drill holes in your walls or run cable. You can enjoy listening it in different rooms. You can,
control Sonos, with the app Amazon, Alexa airplay two or touch controls, it's very sleek and elegant, and we like how it looks. Aesthetically.
Klay pleasing right now you can save twenty dollars on a single Sonos one in fifty on a pair of Sonos ones. Keep one
and give the other or stock up in treat all your family and friends to the
of amazing. Sound offer ends this
Amber twenty six or while supplies last go to Sonos.
com for more details, so now's
is so nice. We are
sorted by the new Yorker, so flattered, proud to be sponsored by the New Yorker New Yorkers. My favorite magazine, I've read some of the best long form
journalism ever in there. I'm thinking right now of a Malcolm Gladwell piece. I read about facial technology and how it's used
in law enforcement? I was riveted by that. That's the fun thing about
New Yorkers that the best writers in the world
and they can introduce you to things
Obviously you would have not put much thought into or even cared about. I mean the
worlds, diminishing supply of sand hunting
an heirloom. Tomatoes doesn't sound interesting, but it is every issue, features weekly humor and satire cultural criticism covering books, art movie, tv,
ideas and more poetry and fiction, long form, reporting on a variety of topics, cartoon captions
test. In more don't wait, go to New Yorker dot com Diaz.
Don't wait, go to New Yorker dot com, Slash Dax listeners of armchair experts, a fifty percent, that's half when they enter Kodak's. With this special offer, you'll receive twelve issues for just six dollars, plus get the exclusive New Yorker Tote bag. You can choose.
Between print digital or combo print and digital subscriptions subscribe.
under the new Yorker and read something that means something: that's twelve issues for six dollars and a free
back when you go to newyorkor dot com, now,
You said something in your TED talk. You talk about the lack of moral diversity
is it hard to understand how our world works. Shared moral values, create teams in the psychology of teams shuts down
open, minded thinking so you're in a moral matrix, and you give the five found
tions of morality that we are probably born with, and I think these are very-
very relevant for us to unravel, what's happening with the outrage and what's happening with all the topics you cover in this book. So can you just tell us grew quickly, you know, could you could you walk
through the the five foundations of morality here so
search on moral judgment- and I originally was looking at how it varies across cultures.
and so I read very widely. I read religious texts. I read: I read ethnographic books, your profiles of of non western cultures, and what I found is that there are a lot of common themes, but yet there a lot of differences, so my work has been trying to
How can I be the case that morality is kind of universal in some ways, but also really variable, and there the year that I came up with along with,
Frank, Joseph and Jesse, Graham and and working on some ideas for my postdoc supervisor, Richard Schneider at University Chicago was that just as we evolved, our tongues have five different receptors to pick up different properties of the world. Chemical prop.
assaults, our sour sweet bitter and umami opponent flavor, so we evolved so that we respond to certain properties of things that are good for us and you,
in the same way our brains are
their minds evolved to pick up a certain properties of the social world that we
it behooves us to notice and care about, and so the five original
nations there's more than five, but the five that we started studying originally are Karen HARM issues that one fairness versus cheating is two in group. Loyalty versus betrayal is three
authority versus subversion is for and send
degradation is five. We also think now. There's is there's liberty, liberty versus constraint,
There may be some issues about property and ownership of all sorts of moral intuitions that human beings have but
really fascinating about these five is that you chart these five concerns of morality on left and right, liberal
conservative and you do it throughout several different countries, so not just ours and what you throw. You find a pattern that emerges that can serve
seem to value three in particular,
Abril seem to value to, in particular, was close. It's it's old! It's slightly different in that, so the theory was originally constructed to study help cultures DE
for. Why is it? You know? Why is India's so in India and traditional hindu morality, issues of purity and pollution and sent that are much more sale
it then they are in secular american culture. But while we were developing this around two thousand three two thousand and four, the american culture was getting so bad. We began to apply this to left, right dimensions and as soon as we started, collecting data as soon as we started doing service with
Numbers of people and listeners can go to yourmorals dot org. If you go to your
rose dot org register. You can take the moral foundations question
there? You can find out your score on these hoes by foundations, so immediately. What we saw is that people on the
after score very high on the care foundation and the Fairness Foundation and people on the right score high on all the foundations. So it's not that they know people on the right really also they value issues of care and fairness
the fairness is different on the left and the right fairness on the left is a specially about quality people elector very sensitive to in a quality, including equality of outcome.
The right when they say fairness, they mean proportionality, so
Do the crime do the time you know that karma? Actually, the hindu concept of Karma is actually very conservative notion. If you do good, you should be rewarded, but if you do bad, you should be punished
even the it within these principles, they manifest themselves differently with in either side of the aisle, which is for the purity one, which I find very fascinating. Glad you pointed this out for concert.
it is the purity morality. Clause seems to center specifically on sexuality, that's right and then for
liberals and I'm
Hi am this. In Hollywood, it's food! We we like fetish, size, food in the purity of or putting in our bodies and has that same moral implication. Exactly that's right. So one of the key insight that I got from Anthropology is that it?
very commonly believed around the world that the body is a temple or at least that the body has these properties that must be protected from contaminants and pollutants and especially before you go to God,
so before you pray, so it's very clear in Islam and Judaism before you pray before you went to the Temple, you have to cleanse yourself menaced rating.
men are often not allowed to approach sacred objects. So there's a logic to this. It's the logic of contagion or contamination. It's very deep in our minds.
Most religions build on it. Protestantism is protestantism develops,
try to strip away a lot of that cuz. I
as more of the washing in the physical stuff. So it's
Is there in our minds and saw
religions in some political systems, build more on it. So, as you say, at least in the american context,
American conservatives were really heavily moralizing sexuality
sexuality, birth control, birth aboard
and so sodomy laws. Exactly that's right! That's the clearest example is sodomy laws,
If you're on the left, you look at this new set
sodomy laws, protecting people, how they they preventing harm. I mean, if you know, people love,
people. Why can't they be together? It's consensual, consensual, yes, so so almost
culture, war issue: you want to look at fly.
burning sodomy laws: abortion, drugs. Anything if you understand these foundation,
You understand why the left takes one position on the right takes another yes and
What are the reason I wanted you to bring? That up is because I think it's so crucial that both sides first acknowledge,
the opposing point of view is them
of cemented in found in a foundation of morality that everyone is really after a similar thing and there's a lot of disagreement about what ones important or how to execute or whatnot, but first starting
again to reject the notion of good and evil. That's right
but you just said, is, I think, the key.
Two living with some equanimity in
insane current political climate. So I spent
the entire Reagan. Administration angry
I know I was always on the last and I was just politically angry
The day Reagan. One until I guess
they Clinton, one hundred,
two ninety three
and I was very moralistic and judgmental, but as I
studied moral psychology and, as I as I set for myself, the task of understanding different political views, I found it really liberating
and it really it released me from anger. It didn't mean
that I agreed with everyone, but it meant now. I saw that some people and it was actually you know what it was only going to India doing
in India. That allowed me to take this to take this more empathic perspective, Tord Conservatives,
because I could not have empathize with conservatives in the 1990s, but I did a postdoc trip. I did it spent three months in
in Bhubaneswar, India and Eastern india- and I was studying of of
very religious, traditional sex, segregated, hierarchical society,
it was only once I do now is trying to pretend I was anthropologist and I was trying to understand them and their terms on. In my turn, and once I did that I was, I came back to America and suddenly you know the religious right was. The thing was a big thing back then
I was. I could at least understand more traditional Christian Americans well in in. Let me just give the print the pragmatic rule.
word for this, because this isn't just an exercise to entertain yourself when
people assemble into teams, all teams follow a pattern. In eventually, the team will shut down ideas right and you will get
further and further away from what the truth is zero. If you have the goal of knowing
truth or understanding how something works, it's in
upon you to physically
yourself, leave your team and here the other
I'd write if we have any shot at getting to the truth or facts or anything like that, we just have to protect ourselves from
what it's like to be side loaded to be inside of a system just a little further with that, I think the basic insight there is correct that that that team shut down open minded thinking, but let's push on the
so you can imagine a team formed in a company to solve some problem and they can do a great job of being open minded, especially if they assign people the task of looking for contrary evidence. So in the catholic church they invented the idea of a devil's advocate. They appointed someone specifically to point out the flaws in our thinking:
you're the devil, trying to come out. As what would you do? What would you say so? Teems darkness of SARA Lee Close minded and I'll take a team in a company and put them in competition with another team in the company
and whichever one gets there first will get the bonus. Well now there might be some competition
Some hostility now
have more sense of us versus them.
And if someone on the other team asks you for help, you might not want to give it to them, because you don't want to be disloyal to your team
well now imagine that not even the same company. Imagine it's.
We know the fans of two soccer teams in Britain and you know it in american sports. We don't have much violence as far as I know, between our fans, but in just raiders games, okay, some stabbings every now and then my
yeah, but yeah they're, not the glacial again yeah yeah yeah. So so I think it's so it you know. So so
what I'm saying is teams don't have to be close minded, but to accept that we now have political team six and that we are either on the right or the left,
The battle is now so pitched that it does shut down open minded thinking and
I'm a centrist, I'm not on either team. Personally, but I do see, I mean
Trump is beyond anything that we've had in this country. He is doing, I think things that will damages for a long time, so I'm not indifferent to what's happening in this country, and I certainly understand when people act like it's, a life or death struggle, it really well
could turn out to be that. I don't want to come down to one side of the other here, but just to say that our current political situation is such that passions are
so much higher now than they were two or three years ago and that guarantees that
teams will make a lot of mistakes and thinking about policy.
And here's where it, in my opinion, perfectly parallels what you're talking about on college campuses, because
There is now a binary opposition to it all right, there's, no there's no gray! There's no new wants, there's no context sell even on this podcast. Dare I point out of a
point of view from the right and try to be thoughtful and really make a good argument for them. The response
get? Is you shouldn't be doing that because the
sir, so high. Of course you can say that as a white male, because you're not separated from your family on the border, so it is all or nothing for them into that yeah. I I I reject that, and I say that is
not unlike saying
or cancer we agree is more important to cure than now fungus. So we shouldn't have any doctors treating nail fungus, they should all be treating cancer. That's just not true. We can. I can look at different perspectives. Also issue per issue stand up very strongly for the families on the border. It's not all in all
out black and white if in fact were required to listen to to all the
size in in the way we
say these systems can somehow approach objectivity. I don't think any of US
liberals want to admit that we very much need the conservatives as they need us for the system.
Actually come up with anything better
show there's this checks and balances to it. I think a lot of people have this fantasy that will everyone was
Ok, this place be Heaven yeah
and in a one party yeah one party countries tend not to work very well. So, yes, what
particularly, there is a Yin Yang conception of politics. That's very much the one that I hold, that each side becomes a
in certain moral intuitions
they notice certain problems and they
focus on them, but they tend to be blind to other concerns. If your morality
It's unclear and compassion. You would say, let's help the poor. Let's help them as much as we can. Let's make
Let's make welfare and other benefits available as much as we can, and
America has obviously lagged behind Europe in creating a safety net, and so it has been
since the time at Roosevelt, it clearly has been the Democrats in the left that have pushed for expanding the safety net and without them it wouldn't have happened
you you certainly need a left to be concerned, especially about the downtrodden. That's with Democrats traditionally did, but at the same time it's very
see to go way too far. In the nineteen sixties, the original form form of of of welfare really did go to fire a lot of ways, because a disincentive, I'd work
Marriage and you needed conservatives to say to
scream from the rooftops? If you disincentivize work, you'll get more people not working
if you disincentivize marriage, you'll, get more people not marrying and what happened to the black family was that
african Americans have very high marriage rates, they're very stable marriages up until the 1960s, and then
the rate of mayor of Non marital births, skyrocketed because in practice,
you could be in love with a woman. You have two kids. If you get married, the benefits disappear and if you stay single, then exactly right. So that's right. That's a very clear incentive! That's right! So if the goal, if the goal is actually to help the poor and assess
the african american inner city poor, which were obviously victims of of of Jim Crow laws of all kinds of racial discrimination. So if the game was, let's figure out the
Ruth and then the other game is, let's do what we can to help. We could have solved the problem much better, but since it everything is politicized, part of the game was ideology. It took people,
Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who was a sociologist, maybe later became a senator, of course, but
he was a sociologist commissioned in the Johnson administration, to write a report on the black family, the very very important report in which he he wrote about all the problems when marriage disappears, all the that you really really hurt. Kids kids have much
less chance of success if they're raised in an unstable family environment with men, cycling through
and so Moynihan wrote this and he was savaged he was. He was
persona in persona non grata, the stories about that time,
professors at Harvard, wouldn't let their kids play with his kids, when, in fact
thirty, forty years later years later, finally sociologists began to admit in the 1990s. He was right. He was absolutely right if you really want to help any any or any any group in this country, one of the important ways,
is to stabilize family structures and do what you can stabilize marriage. I I go to this in detail just to make the point that, while the left was correct about the need to,
have welfare policies and to have a safety net. If you just leave it to the left to implement they're going to implement,
in ways that have all kinds of negative policy implications. They're not going to see you need the critics. You need people to discuss,
from your presuppositions in order to get a better policy, but there are
things to me as a liberal that are very counter intuitive. So one of the examples you gave was this experiment where you could put money back into a pool and then that would be shared collectively among
one and then just say what happened in that scenario,
yeah. So this is a very
experiment, I'm blocking on the author's now. Maybe is this fair? And after I'm trying to me which one this which
it was Monica an admin
as a whole series of experiments done by economists and psychologists called the social coordination or those or a commons dilemma
and so the way they generally work is the exam
it gives everybody some money and you can keep your money or you can put
or all of it, into a common pool and the experimental double or triple it. And so, if everybody supposed to six people playing the game
if everybody puts in all their money and then they share the pool after the experimental trials, that everybody is better off, each individual is best off putting
nothing in hoping that everybody else puts in
free rider in biology. Exactly there's been a lot of x.
on free riding and what it takes to reduce it and the one of the most effective ways to reduce it is to allow people to punish. So if one of your options is, you can pay money on a current of the current round to punish you,
cheated or defected in the last round. The interesting variation is in one of these games. You
choose whether to join a game that has allows punishment,
or join a game that allows no punishment and a lot of people think wow, I don't want to be punished. I'll go to the game. That is no punishment, and then you play the game for awhile
you quickly realize. Oh, my god, everyone is cheating and then, if you give people the option, they often choose to switch over the game,
is punishment because in those games, everyone's cooperating- and so this I take it to
one of the conservative insights that you really,
to be vigilant about free riders. You have to punish cheaters, because people are people
give them believe in the overall system. We're that's right, you you have to buy
and this is this- is this we had a a lawyer on who point out is it's. It was a quote from my Adam John Adams, that was, you can't incarcerated innocent person. In this
because if you do now, we know the whole system flawed and if I can go to jail for doing nothing, then I might as well do something like that. It's it's it's very
intuitive in that way as well. But but you have to
think everyone know. The system works in that people will be punished, as you say, so that they can
I'm going to do their part. There's like a certain belief in the
system required. That's right! I think that there are incredible gains that happen in a day.
Chrissy in a diverse democracy such as ours. If you can basically trust that others are
are basically playing by the rules, then you'll put forth more effort there, just
Any efficiencies I remember reading
about how in moscow-
when an ambulance siren sounds. Nobody gets out of the way was corrupt officials. Put aside,
another car all the time, if you hear a siren, is probably nobody sick, it's just some corrupt officials so to Hell with him, yeah laid for happy hour yeah. Exactly so, if people don't trust the system, things to send very quickly, and so I think this is a very important for us to think about as we are experiencing a rapid decline in trust in our institutions.
each other, this is very dangerous for the future of our country, and this is happening all over the world. It's
part due to social media, making it very easy to expose true corruption
taking it also easy for people to amplify things and even make up stuff, so we're all facing problems.
but there is a decline in the vigor and health
what is around the world, but
and ours is really in trouble. Yes, now my fear
with what I hear my party doing is that they try to explain the other
and reduce it down to a single thing, so it's very popular for people on the left to just say everyone who voted for Trump, so racist
or everyone's a homophobic or everyone xenophobic
everyone's a massage anist right- and
in doing that. You've just said goodbye to possibly understanding what really is the difference, or what really is the solution, or what really we can learn or build
better write, so there's a danger in us labeling each other. Would you agree
once we've labeled the other person as this that or another thing, it's a permanent condition. It's total contempt.
And then there's there's, no there's no, where up from there is there that's right. So an important change in in our politics happened possibly in two thousand and four it used.
The that that you won an election by you got the nomination
president by moving to the extreme and then as
he won the nomination. You move to the middle of it because there was,
most. Americans are not very extreme, but graduate the middle has shrunk and Karl Rove correctly calculated in two thousand and four
at the middle of trunks. So much that the way you win
I really angering your base so that it if conservative turnout goes from sixty percent to sixty five percent. You win,
and that's why they seized on gay marriage in two thousand and four. It was a very strategic calculation. It worked so
we around then, is ever up also roughly when we transitioned from what's called positive politics, which is where people vote for the candidate they like to what is now called negative politics, which is people vote against the candy that they most
Eight nine- and this is very dangerous for us, because it means that
election wasn't necessarily so people who voted for Trump. Some of them
loved him, I'm sure, but
I'm going dynamic was that some people really really hated Hillary Clinton and some people really really hated Donald Trump and so to understand trump voters.
As as they must have been motivated by the worst things about Trump and his appeal. But that is just not true. A lot of people voted against Hillary
You know that was the only way. The next morning I could I was having such cognitive dissonance. I was the one with the most I got my face, I'm like oh she's, going to win by x amount.
Could have been more wrong and at the end of it I thought how on earth am I going to now explain what happened? It's just so disjointed from what I thought would happen in my explanation was basically exactly what you just said. It's easier
me to accept that that many people hated Hillary Clinton than it is for me to accept that many people love Donald Trump. That's how I kind of made peace with that whole thing
that's right. The enemy of my enemy is my friend a
interesting analysis came from, I think his name is Ivan Krastev
I think, he's Bulgaria by origin, but he writes sometimes for the New York Times. He had this brilliant column when she talked about why the marital
Chrissy all around the world, how many countries, not just America, why? The meritocracy is
so so destructive. So bad, and we pointed out- is that
in in America and it also a lot of asian countries? The meritocracy is based on test taking, so the
America. The american elite are those who did really really well on the sat yeah and then they
heading into the top school
and they were. They did really well the M cats or the GRE or whatever, and so, if you have this kind of
ocracy, which is not based on. Did you do something? Amazing? Did you start an amazing company
obviously those things do matter overall, but if we have a meritocracy based on test taking it's not just that we have an elite. That's like pointy, headed people that people love to hate.
it's at the people, the top believe they deserved it, like
Of course I deserve to be on the top. I got the highest score on the yes, yes, you get this
self satisfied elite that looks down its nose
at the less educated at those
Heartland and those
don't share its hyper progressive values and that, basically, you know the elite in in American. U K and elsewhere delete spends much of its time
competing with each other to call more and more people racist, that's how you get prestige in the cause of Paul the leaves by bashing racist, sexist, homophobic, islamophobic and most people don't want to be called that yeah and they many of them go vote for Trump rejoined the all right.
Yes and it's very weird- and I feel, like you, talked about this and SAM Harris, but there's something unique to about the commerce
things we would have if this microphone was off and then the commerce
regions we have when we know we have an audience 'cause. That changes us dramatically right in general sure yeah. I mean I'd like to believe that I would say
Actually the same thing to you. If this was over a beer- and of course I know in some sense that that can't be true- yes, but
if it's necessary, but let's just say that sociologically, it's quite necessary for us to have a public and a private persona, absolutely
it's imperative right. I need to be able to talk to my wife about stuff in bed and throw some very dodgy stuff
on the wall and see what sticks and she bats me down, and I realize I've gone too far and if I can't do that there
on earth in my to find out or do evolve, Volver to perfect or to refine in. Let's
very blurry- is this social media platform? That's right is neither
and yet it dips into both and it's it's confusing right
a lot of sociological theories is a wonderful book by Erving Goffman, the the presentation of self in everyday life and the a c come to appreciate how much we are programmed to be skillful?
at behaving in the right way in the right context and we're very concerned about a public presentation of a face, and and so we can be very inauthentic at times, but then in private moments were much more authentic.
I think life is good. When there are lots of different environments, different games were playing different salons, maybe might say in which we're talking,
and what social media has done. Unfortunately, is it's knocked out all the walls so that everything is in a sense behavior in public, and this is not so much true for for people, you know are his I'm older than you but you're, but is, but for I'm fifty four, but I'm right behind you, okay,
People for young people so- and this is why Jensi Orijen kids born in nineteen ninety five and after they have only known growing up with social media, and so
if most of your social life is such that one slip one word and you
be shamed with no end. This really cheated deprives you of the opportunity to throw things at the wall. He
mystic yeah. If I understand by every idea I had at eighteen years old, there's no way you know
I've learned so much thank God in thirty. You know whatever years, yet there would be
historical record in writing. Had I
been born in nineteen ninety five, because I would have written
and with exists in. I have to imagine it disincentivizes anyway,
with a kind of progressive thought? You know,
the stakes are just so high. Are we not that they weren't we killing what could be probably great ideas or so
'cause, it's just who wants who wants to stick their neck out exactly so? People learn best by feedback. People learn best by trying something and either succeeds or it fails. We learn faster when it fails
and faster from that, your negative, you, you bring your hand once honest over. You, learn not to touch the stove without gently checking whether it was just on and again
bio chemical evolution. Oxytocin is ten times as strong as dopamine zero
need a poisonous apple. You better! If I can remember that, was poisonous versus a yummy Straub,
there's a whole system upstairs exactly government.
Behavior this is behavior, is is learning theory. This is Pavlo Watson and all the classic psychologists. So
Kids need a lot of negative feedback, they need to try things and then they fair,
Are they get hurt and they learn often in a single trial? And so, if you think about think behavior in school and if you can try things and you get feedback, and then you don't do it again? What you learned?
If you try something and then the feedback is that your destroyed socially? What does it do to you? It means you're not going to try.
if you're going to be very careful and ever again, probably ever again. Well yeah. If you talk to college professors now, maybe it's happening in high school to college professors about what's going on in seminar classes in a lot of them. Tell me I can't get discussion going anymore. I mean, if it's about some, that nobody cares about they'll talk, but if it is anything
with race, gender politics. You know nobody dares to disagree with the party line. Well, I have a question or I thought, because I fully agree with all all of this Hanneke being over the top and exaggerated, but I guess my only issue is. I feel like we're telling that group that your being too sensitive, which I think they are but we're telling one group you're being too sensitive, and then we take this group of conservative white men who are a off me. No,
voting for Trump and who feel not heard, or not this or being we're calling them racist and they don't like it. We're saying we need to be more sensitive to those people, but we we have to tell this other marginalized group that there acting too sensitive and to me it's like who
They need to be a little more. I have an answer for that first mind:
it simply is no one on the rights listening to me, there's no way. I can enact self improvement on the right because I'm not in that group, but I hope I have enough trust within the
community that they might live
to me- and I also think in my own life experience- I am the only variable on every equation that I had can alter. I can't alter how Jonathan is going to react. Anything can only. I can only adjust my own behavior, so I'm I'm trying
fix my side or as much as I can be self reflective and think how we can improve? I I like to think I'm speak.
in for academia, I'm I worship it. You know. I think it's one of the greatest things for us humans do have created, so I'm trying to protect something. I love. I don't think I could
so in on the right who's, not even listening to me by the way, liberal.
no one on the right so seeing you there only listening themselves and we're only listing ourselves. So it's such wasted talk in my opinion, so I'm trying to clean up my side of the street. I pray there's people on the right. They were trying to clean up their side of the street, and that would be my defense for why I'm critical of my side and not the other, but I think, but I think Monica is pointing out that
that I'm talking about how we should structure our universities and also, by extension, our companies in our any kind of group in Monica's right to say
you know, John, are you saying that one side has to suck it up and stop being so sensitive? That's a very fair question: an if
I was saying yeah. I would be embarrassed to say that and
conceivably, it would still be good advice. It's certainly is kind of offensive in and I don't think it's good advice, so I think about a very differently as we are trying to increase diversity and in all
every organization I mean we're trying to increase diversity, this
always is going to increase the risk of misunderstanding some conference. Always what are we going to do? We have to do two things. At the same time, we all have to learn to give less offense and so and we're doing this
but I think about the kinds of jokes that when I was in college in the 80s,
nobody made race jokes. I mean that was totally taboo by then, but gay jokes sure you can make a jokes and that's
was in the eighties and then by the nineties, two thousands in it, you know and prestigious, or the college or maybe everywhere. No doubt then gay jokes were out. So there is a social progress. People get shamed for making these jokes, in other words,
people have to learn to be more to be less affair,
to be more sensitive and that's been happening steadily and in perhaps that's mostly
I used to the white men, I don't know so we we do have to. We do have to educate incoming classes about what's what's a kind of a question which, even if it isn't,
badly intentioned ends up being annoying. You know, asian students who are
over and over and over again, where you from nowhere, where you really felt like why you being like okay, don't do that
You gave the example. Yeah, like a lot of black students, will complain about people touch their hair, yeah yeah yeah, so we we we we've got it. We've got to teach people to give less offense and that's mostly going to be. If you want to put in language privilege fine. It's me mostly talking to the more privileged groups. At the same time, suppose we do that and suppose we ours over the decades. We've been actually quite successful at that not perfect, but we make a lot of products. At the same time suppose we steadily shift the goal posts. What counts is offensive. We keep moving that and suppose we move the goal posts
even faster than we make progress supposed to start saying all right. There's no more! You know. Violence like physical violence and people aren't using. You know people
the effort using
yeah. I mean you hardly ever hear such words anymore. Let's focus on micro, aggressions, let's define what is offense.
if at a lower and lower level, it's possible then that we can make progress decade after decade, and I think we have on every front and you think about how quickly gay rights came in gay marriage and then from you know, hardly anyone was thinking about Trans gender issues, seven or eight years ago. So the progress by any objective says the progress is extraordinary.
but at the same time, if we keep moving the goal, posts and teaching students being more and more sensitive, we might actually be hurting everyone. So this is what I'm saying that we have to deal with all the problems. At the same time, we have to have a sense of this is a common project that, if you want diversity, then you have to teach people to be more forgiving
to judge by intent, not by impact alone. The common idea now on campus is intent, does not matter. It's only impact, and that's our second grade on truth is always trust. Your feelings and we then try to teach students to find harm to find offense at things that would not have affected people a few years ago. They were not mal intentioned. So I'm saying that if we want to do the diversity project, we have to think very carefully about it and a lot of the things we do as part of the diversity.
or making things worse, especially for those in historically marginalized groups, well an intentions of very, very relevant, and you make a great example of just take getting bumped into on the street. Now, if it was an axe,
there is no moral implication. The person went out of their way to shove. You there's a huge moral implication, so this is crucial for understand the concept of micro aggressions. The concept is: if, if you
think about the idea of a micro aggression. You might think it's a perfectly legitimate concept that you can have aggression. You could eat all. You could have it. Somebody could yelling racial slur, somebody yell and insult. That's aggressive, it's verbal! It's not physical, but it's aggression, and so it might be useful to have a concept of small aggression
question. I'm so he says something subtle. It's a little dig that they can deny, so it could be useful concept. The problem is that when it was defined in a in a paper by Gerald Wing Sue, professor teachers college is specifically defined it in such a way. That intention is not necessary that it doesn't matter what was intended. What matters is what was felt. He said that a racial micro aggressions and even the unintentional, in fact they can even result from efforts to be helpful or nice. So a lot of mischief, a lot of problems come about by calling such
ends aggression if he had simply called them faux pas or clumsy gestures there, all kinds of things that people can do that are well meaning that end
being annoying now, members of various groups, it's great to educate members of a new community about those things
one hundred percent. You call them aggression, so imagine imagine
in Asians. To imagine your first and you know you were born in America. Your parents came from China so, for until now, Asians have been moving up. It was fast as Jews ever did.
Asian immigrants come to America, they have incredibly high rates of marriage, but their families are very focused on achieve
So the agent said my wife is korean and her family stories, it's different from my family as well, but the korean experience in America is very similar to the jewish experience in a lot of ways. So very rapid progress. Imagine that you that you tell you tell
Asian Americans to perceive the environment around them as full of not just aggression but violence. Words are violence,
everyone of you know, you are marginalized to our member of a marginalized group what a good way to block their progress, what a good way to prevent them from throwing themselves into things. What a good way to prevent that from forming friendships and from where the way to make them see the world is threatening.
This is what we mean by saying our inner subtitle, how good intentions and bad ideas are setting up a generation for failure. So much of what we do to make progress on issues of identity ends, I believe ends up harming the very students were trying to help well and also does
give victimhood itself some prestige is in it. One is an incentivized to be at the center to be the victim of one of these atrocities. That's right! That's the that's the clearest ways of identifying what's wrong here: everybody's engaged in the search for prestige. Everybody wants
I want it yeah. We all want it now. So if you look at any system- and you think what do people do to get prestige and
system and that's why we in New York love to look down on you in LA because we think you guys are also obsessed with beauty and vain. You think
and of course you can then look down on us because you probably think you know we are Wall Street culture. All we care about is money. I don't know what is it that you hate about every time someone from New York starts telling me why LA sucks, I always tell them the same thing, which is true: we love New York.
You guys are in a one sided fight. You guys is like LA verse, New York, not for us. We love New York. We love going there with of all new Yorkers. It's all you guys, so that leads me to believe a word. Triggering
in some inferiority complex, is probably the whether I don't know what it is, but we are not in a war with you, you have better with more beautiful people, we yeah we and we have, and we even have it interest state where the north, northern California is fighting, but we're not fighting with them. We love success is also mellow and well adjusted. Yeah. I was like okay. Well, why do we suck or pizza sucks cool whatever yeah? I love your pizza.
if you imagine that,
eight or or college students are competing based on who's more successful. Well, if you're in such an economy, you'll be more successful,
imagine a competing on who's, better athlete. Well, people will throw themselves in chocolate if you imagine them competing on who is more victimized on who can tell a better story about how they've been victim
best buy the system by the man by oppressive power structures. If that's what you're incentivizing, then people will go for that and boy. Is that a good way to set them up for failure? If you want America's a wide open society compared to Europe compared to other places, the upside is unlimited. This is what european immigrants tell us. This is what young people in Europe tell us. If you really want to be successful, you have to go to America now I don't know if it's still true in the last couple years. Things are changing here, but the larger point is just that in a really threatening
closed environment it. It is often adopted to be defensive, to be paranoid, but in a wide open society with unlimited upside, it really doesn't pay to be paranoid. It pays to take chances put yourself out there. Try try again if you fall down, try again and what we're doing in a victimhood culture
we are teaching students to not do that well and what I'm nervous for them in it is. Is that all while it may be incentivized on twitter and Facebook and your college campus going
to general motors as an engineer and being the
its victim there. That is not gonna, be promoted. It's not going to result in more money or anything. You would want more opportunity. No one wants to work with the person who is a perpetual victim, that's right and you and I hear the citation business school. So I I hear
business leaders and executives saying this now, like they read about making sure about what's happening on college campus and they say who would want to employ such a person and it now it's beginning to happen. So the campus culture really kind of broke out in twenty fifteen. At the time people said when Greg Lukianoff and I published
on the land of people say: oh that's just college students, you know, being you know: they're they're, they're, big political, there being whatever
as soon as they join the real world going,
to give that up and get to work. Well, it turns out that in industries that hire from elite schools they're hiring a lot of elite,
college students, so just in the last year, I'm hearing from journalists and people in tech that this victimhood culture, this safety culture. This idea that people are fragile and that the boss has to protect them.
From each other to protect them from people writing a memo that that that is so?
reading to me that is essentially violence against me. This culture is creeping in rapidly and if anyone stands
do it. They will be called out for being insensitive. So I am concerned that this victimhood based safety, ism culture, is creeping out into certain areas of corporate life and I think ultimate is going to sap the vitality
and the creativity of those industries. Now, let me ask you this: this is going to be very provocative. Pardon me
zoom way way out, you know, outside of our atmosphere in recognize. Perhaps let's take vaccines is in
Sample vaccines end up being a victim of their own success right. So anyone that grew up with my grandparents did saw the effects of polio. It was everywhere. I don't know what to is. Thirty percent of people had some outrageous right, so you there were many kids at your school on crutches and one
so you saw it first hand. Now we get this polio vaccine and it works like crazy. It's so effective it works. Now you have
people in Oregon, who never seen
polio and now they're evaluating something they've, never seen against the notion of putting something foreign in the baby's body and it becomes a hard decision for them to make solely based on how great this vaccine worked. I'm I just want to question this may be too taboo, but.
young people just need something, and is it maybe in place of that there isn't a Vietnam war to protest or that there isn't. You know like as we get better 'cause. I am of Steve
I believe in- and I had a great anthropology teachers said: you know what just zoom out and look how long we've been here and look, how much we've accomplished in there's a new experiment, civilization, it's so new and look where we were at even in our own country, a ferry boat captain smashing into each other and killing all the passengers. I mean that's the that was happening to her years ago, so we we made this incredible progress now, as we as we get close
certain closer to an even more utopian existence, we're not going to uh.
Plug the wiring that wants us to prove ourselves to our tribe and to fight for something into stand for something,
and we have nothing to stand for what happens, then. Is that
have a question. Or does that cross your mind at night? I think it true trusting I'm not trivializing that I things that they care about currently younger people, but I just it does beg the question. So great. Can I talk? We, we open the book up with a discussion of problems of progress. Is it it was a useful term.
Now, as we solve one problem, with a focus on smaller and smaller problems, and so in one sense, that's progress in another sense, we're kind of
neurotic over concerned. Focus on little things, our grandparents or great grandparents had much less comfortable physical environments in a lot of ways were spoiled. We,
we couldn't circuit would be hard for him to survive in houses from the nineteen century, you'd. Never that lacked I had to use in our house. I don't know, I might end it so one at one. One kind of progress that we've made is as as we get wealthier and say for an s techno,
she has this made it possible to have a family without a woman spending, her entire life, doing laundry and cooking as women into the work force. We have smaller and smaller families. In many ways this is good. Stuff is good for the planet. In terms of you know, it's not unsustainable, for everybody have five kids. So it's progress to have smaller families, but then what had
and says we invest far more in each child and we worry a lot more. If you have one child,
you're really over protective. If you have five
I mean, I don't quite say you know what the hell you lose one or two. I want to be incentive in that way, but that was more the ethos
well, if one child you overprotect them, if you just read history, we've
until recently had any president who hadn't lost a kid or two like you. Look at President Lincoln, like they're dealing with having lost a son
while they're going through all that other stuff, that was commonplace to lose a child? That's right. So obviously this is gigantic progress that we've got infant mortality down the accident rate for kids is way down. We have safer consumer products. Are cars are safer? This is all good, but an unforeseen side effect of it is that it's easy to accept the idea that we should protect our kids from all bad experiences that are playgrounds should be perfectly safe and we're just beginning to realize in the last couple years is that there is such a thing as risk deprivation.
Syndrome, and the idea here is that adults have learned to navigate through the world and judge risk for themselves and
We can judge whether across the street, you can judge whether to start a business. We can judge all sorts of things, but we only can judge that because we were allowed to take risk on for self. We were king
maybe there's a tree and you decide to climb the tree at one point
scared out of your mind, because you realize, oh, my god, how am I going to get down? Or maybe this branch will break and it almost never does break, but you
Do something scary, you go too far and you discover your limits. Well, what began to
in the nineteen eighties and nineties, especially in America, where we had a lot, we had a litigation liability crisis and, and everybody was worth the risk of being sued and so schools,
get rid of anything that could be at all dangerous go by.
Young darts, that's right, that's right and so playgrounds became incredibly safe. Child's play became incredibly safe and also it became very heavily supervised zero.
Let's kids always have a safety net once there's always an adult will tell them. They don't learn to judge for themselves, and so in Britt
with having a lot of the same problems as us in Britain they have actually begun introducing risk to playgrounds.
There's a wonderful playground on governor's island, so in New York City there's this there's governor's island is a little I'm just south of Wall Street and is what's called the junk yard playground, and I had a
sign all kind like a five liability waiver to let my kids onto it, but they have construction material. They have hammers and nails
and I want, and they have all kinds of signs on the fence telling the parents stop supervising just let your kids play yeah and I watched as
as at ten eleven years old,
pounding nails. There's like you, know, nails and lumber and their hammers, and so I don't have sauce. They have hammers.
much. Does a kid pounded and added pounding pounding pounding, and then I could see him. He obviously his thumb sure he pulled his son when he shakes it out, it's inevitable and you might think. Oh, my god is he ok, he hit his thumb and what is the kid? Do he shakes his thumb and he goes back to pounding and then hit it again
any shakes it out and he goes back to pounding and he doesn't hit it again. Eventually, he gets good
memory with my son is no idea how to hammer nails. Now I live in an apartment. I do wanna hammer, but I have no lumber sure point is in Britain
They began to realize that kids need small risks, and if you watch kids play when kids learn to skate,
or they do just go down the hill all the time. No, they start going down the staircase railing.
The kids need risk, not risk they're, going to fall off the 13th floor and die.
Risk of fall off a fence and bang their head. Yes, they need risk and we've deprive them of it. This might be
the reason why the anxiety, depression and suicide rates are going up so quickly. Well, because our kids,
have not learned any coping skills under the helicopter parent paradigm. Right, that's right and I think doctor drew makes a great point. Two is like all these parents are shocked, their kids go away to college and there immediately addicted to benzos those and
It's and it's like. Well, what did you think you didn't give them a single tool in the toolbox to deal with disappointment and heartbreak? That's right! The job,
It's too it's too painful. If you wait till twenty to do exactly the job of a parent is to work him or herself out of a job and that's the way my parents look
you know they said when you go off to college, will pay for college and that's it you're on your own and I
I learn how to travel by myself, but now for a lot of reasons. Parents stay in very close touch all the way through college. So I thought experiment that I'd like to do is is
people. Suppose we just decided that you know reading there are some risks to reading. You might read something upsetting. So what if we said no read until you're fifteen, nobody gets to reach other fifteen and then you can start reading 'cause. You
do? We think that there might be any lasting damage? Do we think the kids might end up?
adults being less good as readers. Of course, the answer is yes. Ok, if you believe that and what, if we don't, let kids have any true independence, still there fifteen. What if we say
You can't walk, seven blocks to a store and buy something and come home. You can't go out with your friends and hang out
either the river throwing rocks in the river. You can't do that until you're, forty or fifty,
and now you're old enough now, you can do that. Do we think that
might be any lasting hit to their ability to live independently out in the world. Of course, yeah. Of course there is, if you look at every kid story, practically involves kids between the age of eight and twelve.
Leaving the protection of parents and flying off on a magical turtle to a land of rainbows and fire. Whatever you know it's, it's always some. Some adventure walking through a wardrobe yeah, exactly right, you don't
reading these stories with my kids and I'm thinking, my god, my kids have never had an adventure,
well in you read a great book written by a woman. What was it called in our skin? Easy free range? Kids. There you go that's the book in its
She didn't she famously. I learned this from you, but apparently it caused a big uproar. She let her nine year old or something ride. The subway and people thought it was child abuse. That's right,
two thousand and nine. So the crime of crime rate had already plummeted. New York, NY is now as safe as it was when my parents were growing up in the 30s nineteen 30s and my parents would ride the subway
the age of nine hundred and ten they would go all over the city
me and my friends wrote rode a bicycle all over all over town, the beginning of the age of eight or nine kids. At the eight, I study three kids for a while all over the world. This,
Kid phenomena starts at age, eight, a six year old. If you have
such a six year olds. They can't survive on their own. If a bunch of eight year olds, they can steal food run from the cops find a place to sleep
Year old are ready to explore the world and they always did it for the world until the 1990s. We stopped them from exploring the world.
later on in the course the ironically, when it got safe enough to really let your yes, that's right, just as the crime, it was plummeting we had a huge crime wave beginning in the sixties.
That end in the 90s and just as ending we crack down on kids
I need to find out when were the first stories of parents being arrested, because their kids were caught playing in a park that began happening in the early early
you know two thousand two thousand and ten we started hearing stories. I don't know whether it was happening in the 90s, but by two thousand and ten. Those kinds of stories were getting more com
so now parents are really afraid to let their kids out because they could be arrested. We have these pandemic freak outs right
that's right, yeah. I learned this in Andrew had a witchcraft class and she, the teacher, said you know that there's never ever been someone who put razor blades in the in the Halloween candy. It's never ever happened. That's right! It was like no wait.
impossible. Not what happened in my town- and you have fire department scanning-
x, raying candy, all across the country, the power of that exactly so
of the when we try to explain why did the culture on campus change so rapidly around two thousand and fifteen? Where did this idea
Is that we're fragile? The world is dangerous? We have to be protected from books and ideas. Where did this come from, so we have a whole chapter on what we call paranoid parenting.
Again. This happened to us in the 80s and 90s in part. Because of k,
tv and all sorts of other things for any
dismiss who remember the Michael Moore Movie Bowling for Columbine great. He documents how where he argues at least that part of the american freak out is that we were
we've been exposed constantly to news stories about crime, whereas in Canada
much calmer, they're, not as afraid they often leave their doors, unlocked at least when their home. Why lock your door if you're home, but America
generally. Wouldn't do that so as to me
environment changes it puts in our faces.
is a risk that are vastly out of proportion to reality, but it sells, and so back to your point about how,
our brains, are adapted for the environment of evolutionary adaptation. We don't live in that environment anymore. It makes sense,
a hair trigger and to learn
new kinds of danger, if there's a new kind of predator in your environment? But we live in an incredibly safe times and I think it's really tragic when I think about what it was like growing up in the 70s when we'd be out exploring, would be out somewhere and if you got
asked you would ask someone for help with that. You had no choice in every cell phone or is that Huber strangers used to be useful? Yes, yes, and so you had to cultivate the skill of talking to a stranger. Yes use me, sir, which way
is bright avenue or,
or in extremely excuse me. Can I use your
to call my mother yeah, and nobody would do that today because
Is there taught stranger danger and they often have cell phones with us? You don't need street, so the point is
Kids nowadays, I believe, are much more fearful of strangers. The world seems more threatening, even though it's much safer.
This is part of the reason that we see one of the contributors to why we see people freaking out about the world being dangerous when it isn't.
So you've implemented a little bit of this in your own right.
so your own son, you will send to the store yeah. So in part, because I read Lenore Skinnies Book free range, kids, it's a wonderful book. I recommend it to everybody was. Can
and because she lives in New York and I've been working with her and we
started an organization she runs, it called let grow. I urge everybody to go to. Let grow dot org. So I've tried to encourage my kids to go outside and it's difficult because they say: there's no one else out there without
but now I live right on Washington Square Park. It's a beautiful park in New York City and there are two or three playgrounds in it and my daughter who, who
she actually started reading she's eight. She actually started reading free range kids. He loves to
The she's very independent minded, she's she's part of her identity is very proud of that. She's really taken it upon herself to just go out into the parking play and even though all the other kids out to have a parent nearby, there are at least kids wear to play with at the playgrounds
and my hope is in as I tore around with this book. I'm trying to encourage this is that everyone who is apparent
body out there listening. If you have kids between the ages of let's say six and twelve go to let grow dot org to find other parents in your neighborhood find a place designated place. It might be in a park or playground or might be somebody's backyard
Maybe it's just! Let's call it free range Fridays, maybe you and some other you know the parents of your kids friends. You agree to have free range fridays, no piano lessons! No software, lessons on Fridays, the kids hang out at such and such a place where in somebody's backyard and it's very important that they not
be supervised so there convenient nearby there's a problem. They can go get 'em, but it's very important that the kids decide what to do.
No adult. Is there saying? Oh don't do that you have to let them try out some small risks and it's scary. It is scary, but what's the alternative?
who is more prone to depression, anxiety and suicide and who goes off to college
the item into college and then he or she Flanders and fails. If you keep that
stakes are pretty high yeah, that's right in in your own experience. Where did you take baby steps like the first time you let your son go to the store across street? I imagine you stared out the window so with each kid when they first,
What the solo missions I actually followed them from a jar
as ever since I heard you say this, I've been kind of plotting. How I'm going to do this with my five and one slash two year old cuz. She is incredibly and I could actually just tell her to go to school and she packed her lunch and do it like she.
she can. But I what I have been thinking of, like okay, had a tail her in a way she has no idea yeah. So you can do that. That's mostly for your benefit. The first up now with my daughter. She has no sense of direction whatsoever, so I've been trying to get her to get to the point where she can walk from our apartment in the northwest corner of the park to my office in the southeast corner and
We did the big. You know the big experiment two months ago. She was going to do it and she didn't show up and because she has no sense of direction
So she went down the wrong street and then she was crying, but she did at least make it back home. Oh
oh, that one failed sure well, but or did it? That's exactly that's right. How did she get? Did she ask a strange?
No, she she will never ask a stranger, I'm working with RON. This he's too shy. Okay, and so she wants to walk to school
by yourself- and I say no way until you can walk around our neighborhood and ask a stranger to call me until you pass that test. I'm not letting you
after school yeah and she's too. She doesn't want to do that, but this is not that she's afraid of risk. It says she
I socially, and I'm going to I'm going to negate everything I said about the White Male
now in just say that I tell my own kids to go, find a woman
need to go, find a woman and ask for help. I trust him way. More yeah certainly turned sexual abuse. There's not a lot of women out there sexually using only they're, not shooting out places they're, not sexually and they're nicer in a lot of ways. So I just want to ask you one last question: I'm curious: do you
You ask yourself
like a system. What about your personal
sorry, I've heard you talk a million times. I know nothing about your personal story. What is it about your childhood that lead
you do this. If you even ask yourself why you would even want what what do you? What riddle? Are you trying to? Yes all so, no couple things I mean so first, let's start by saying whatever store. Whatever explanations we give our own behavior, we have no real privileged access
going to make up a story, it's not more reliable than a story that you know you could make up about me. If you knew a little bit more about me, but I'm happy to speculate, it's always fun to do so. One thing there was a wonderful show. What's his name here with one thousand,
aces Joseph Campbell Oman studied mythology, and I
watched his series on PBS in the 1990s and he said figure out what mythological character. You are, if you are a character in what would it be, and for me it was really clear it was the explorer I didn't
be the king or the magician or the you know. I want to be the explore I've, always
very high in openness? To experience? Curiosity, I love being a professor. I love being a social
dentist. So I'm really really motivated to know
and learn not to have power, that's one thing another,
this is again very speculative, but can I ask you a question here? What is it about exploration? Do you think was the Medison you needed was that was there? Did you
he'll feel bored in your town. Did you feel? No? It's just a
is very heritable. So if I had a dent okay, he would probably very much like me.
I believe that athletes who so I that's always been my-
thing is I just I just I just love to learn, so I have the perfect job for me,
another thing: is that I'm the middle child and my
my older and younger sisters have never ever ganged up on me
They never really got along, and so I was always very good at at.
siding with one or the other, but also it mediating, is very good at seeing both sides of the story. Meeting that might be relevant. I don't know, but I think the real, the real
the moment, the re. What really let me down the path to
Work I'm doing now is that I set out to write a book to help the Democrats win.
to use moral psychology to help my side win, and because I did that I committed to understanding conservative
on their own terms in their own language. Just as I had
and in India, trying to understand traditional, hindu morality and so because my profession
work was to understand morality and I committed to to conservative
later libertarian morality. I think I was able to
really see the value in multiple perspectives? I was able to release
just how limited every team is, and that is what allowed me to step out and say, I'm not on any team.
and I think, as a social scientist, it's been really good. For me, I feel as though I'm a better social scientist now that I'm not trying to help one side
I love. I love your thought. Experiments you've. Given, though, about morality and the things we think are you know we know when our gut it's wrong to sleep with your sister on vacation, but we can't really explain why other than just we in our got, we do it like. I love all those things anyway, such a pleasure to talk to you
your book, which you don't like the title you were given the title. The car
They noted that yeah. That's the part, you don't like it's catchy and we could not come up with a better one. Even though we didn't like that yeah, it's it's it's.
Suck of I like it it. It implies we need to fix this immediately or we're going to perish somehow in a big fire
but Jonathan Height, it's a real honor to have you here. I hope you'll come back when you write your next book, I'm sure you're not done. Writing yeah, if I could just put in a closing plug for the book, please do because so many of these
problems are social coordination problems. That is the lot of them
young people are having are not ones that you can solve by yourself or that apparent assault by him or herself. We have to get schools working better to give kids
freedom, more autonomy, more self governance. So I closing request is
listening to this okay. This is on the complaint plug, give a copy of the book. The calling American might give it to the principal of your school or, if you're, if you're, if you're in a university,
your student give it to anybody in administration. We have to get a common vocabulary for talking about these problems and for reforming social systems to be better,
to children's developmental needs. Now, that's my closing.
And we also probably need an agreed upon approach to dealing with, because quite often people do need to get fired. There are
this is working among us an they probably shouldn't hold positions of educating students, and there are many different,
variables and how we should deal with it and but there's no course of action right. It's just per each
versus some people are firing. People you. I think you applaud University of Chicago
you like how they deal with it. Well, they have a key thing about university Chicago is they have a statement saying the university provides a platform on which you can watch the members of the community are free to air their views, the universe,
It does not take sides and it is committed to vigorous intellectual debate. Even if someone says something promotes an idea that others find offensive, it's up to the rest of the community to argue it down not to shut it down.
Well. I like that Jonathan hi. Thank you so much for coming, and I hope I get to talk to you again my pleasure to talk to you again, you and now my favorite part of the show, the back the with my soulmate, my soul, mate. My anaconda don't
want none. Unless you got facts, hun you
side bends or sit ups, but please don't lose those facts. Baby got facts. I was a
hey I'm a little worried. We did that before run.
Said. No. I love it. Do you know that I was obsessed with Nicki Minaj, his anaconda?
Wait? She owned an anacondas? No, no! No! She had a song called Anna Konda,
in it sample a in this sample. Baby got back and I loved it.
I love Nicki Minaj you do. Is she saying I don't know
Ok, I've only kind of seen, maybe a clipper two over. I only choose my words carefully
whatever on this program, but is she been
some beefs for sure. Okay, alright she's been in beefs
it's really fascinating when people are and beats, I mean because it seems like I have to talk myself into being. An of beef like I'd, have to really get my head right. So I didn't sound like a bozo and
I felt heartfelt who could care about anything? That's true. I'm surprised that you've been well making benenson, be. I wouldn't be surprised,
you've been in like a public debate or have different, that's something
bill, Evan, Rachel, wood, Rachel and okay. So that's probably as close to a beef is I've gotten in. It was simply that I made a joke on twitter yeah about, I think, a guy killing them. You know
rhinoceros or something
saying that he was calm, rare animal suggesting that he was compensating yeah teenie beanie.
Right and she said that I was shaming yeah, which I understand she feels passionately
out, but again this becomes one of my issues where it's like. We can take away all insults that are good.
should shame someone who kills a white rhino. That's true
now. We can't even make fun of penises tick. Tock! You don't stop well, the reason you can't make fun of
This is now is because now we know it just contributes to this culture or if you have a smaller penises sure that would, I would never well, first of all, they knew someone at a smaller sized penises part. I would never make fun.
I am now, I would never actually call up someone that I knew to have a small por, but I do. I will call someone who's compensating of course, but then the problem is when I'm other people with
penises they're reading it in there like laughing ha ha, oh
Then they get sad because the punchline is also something that they have I'm that's not.
Significant beef no was in because I like her very much still- and I think she likes me still yeah
yeah. She just said she raised her concern and I see it as
valid, does it mean? I won't still say guys in? Like you know, orange and yellow lamborghinis are
compensating's, I don't know how else to shame them. It's just also that
it's funny that you that you think that
I mean. I know why, like most people think that about people driving fancy cars and crazy cars, not just fancy flat,
send tacious cars. Yeah car will really the sole objective of the cars to get attention with it like it's, not mechanically superior to any other car there should be. Are they are good cars like Ferrari?
is right whenever he is a good card too yeah. It's just been hijacked by guys who need a lot of attention. I feel bad for Lamborghini to be honest for
oh for that, for the car key yeah. I don't think any car manufacturers had more of its vehicles
into like a mirror, app or a camouflage rap than their cars, and they can't like that.
They're engineering, those things you know, and it
in Germany and yeah. They don't hear, hear. There's one parked in front
Gucci Store in London with, like you know, you did see
rodeo drive in front of Jerrys Deli I've kind of chairs
yeah and it's like the persons in their valet parking, but they have no intention of leaving that valet stand. They've got like all of a sudden. As soon as the car arrives, I've got so much business to tend to in their pockets in the trunk, and then you know which is up front, and it's really just an excuse.
just stay in that
light as long as possible. Oic
So generally there there's
inconvenience associated with it as well, and I should have compassion for these people who think the only thing that could be attractive about him is check
in their wallet and shrunk at the valet stand in front of Jerrys yet, but I'm I'm not
Are you at the masculine trope?
it is nice car, nice watch, yeah yeah. I have a nice watch.
in a nicer car act like I'm ninety percent to the person, I hate
I'm ninety percent there, but I decided that the line I drew was the line right, whichever one does I'm sure so many guys in EL a look at me on my motorcycle at a stop light and they're like get over yourself bud. We get it you're a fucking renegade
You know yeah yeah if they only knew how much
azure I derived from it, and then I really don't even want to be invisible on it. I don't want any attention. Yeah, that's true, but who am I kidding? I wanted tons of a ten
That's why I went into comedy and stand up in the performing arts
I wanted all the attention and when you drive crazy,
That's for Maine! I know it's for you, but you know that you're getting a tent right when that happened going so fast. They can't attribute the attention to me. Ok, alright and, as you know, I do most of my stunt driving with a Nixon mask on oh sure.
Sure it a Jason from Friday
but I mean crazy and like driving to the movie theater
use a different adjective sorry, because crazy sounds reckless and out of control now you're, definitely not out of control. I'll say that, but it's definitely violating some of the posted speed limit. Some of the some of that.
Lights. Some of the stop sign the standard practice at a stop sign, yeah, yeah objectively,
Some people might call that reckless yeah absolutely so I don't. I do not think you're out of control now it's
an ethical move of mine that I make there's several things that I do that I know I'm violating some ethics. One is I consume all this factory farmed meat. I know
That's wrong yeah. I know it
I, when I hit ninety five on LOS Feliz Boulevard, that's not cool, but if it's nice and empty, I think who cares.
you it's well. I also agree. Who cares it's only if you're making other people feel unsafe?
bell is good at reminding me of it's not that you're endangering them because you're clearly in control, but it scares them if they get scared to get passed by somebody and it couldn't
enter them not because not because of anything you're doing, but because they're not in very much.
All of their vehicle and then they might freak out and try to adjust, and then they might look up so quickly from the text message they were sending that they get Vertigo yeah. I had vertigo once I know
you bring it up a lot. It's something that you earlier today that it is the first time you've ever heard me say now. I know you said it yesterday on the couch as well. No, today this morning on the couch, oh, my goodness, people are going to get the sense that were on the couch.
When we watch a lot of tv do our hobby is watching tv. We do sad, unethical,
Watch tv either to be given this wonderful glorious life in this crazy planet, that's so beautiful and to sit on a couch and stare at a square. Is that ethical? It said
things you join now and it's not harming others. So now, ok
you want me over ok, great, let's watch tv, ok, Jonathan
yeah. I want to say one more thing before we get into it about penises: oh yeah! Ok, it's so interesting because that,
thing, the thing about having a big dick is mainly for guys with God.
one hundred percent. Just yes and I make yeah yeah.
And and it's it's- I don't know what you guys are saying to each other when you're talking about the size of your deck, but I think the implication is it's because women like it when it's back
Well, I think, ostensibly, that's it, but
it's very much a like a outward affection
Yeah, it's a status. It's an alpha thing, it's uh, who's biggest, you know, just like whoever's, got the biggest muscles. We like the biggest of all things guys, but the underlying rationale is like it's better, because it's more pleasure, that's the
Why we test the lie? Absolutely because really it's just about us
but I would make the exact same argument to win
and women who will complain about the unrealistic standard set for them by magazines and stuff. Here
guys, don't even read those magazines, they don't know about those guys, don't know
supermodels as much as women, no supermodels frail, and so that's all perpetuated as well with between you guys and girls. Foreshore are perpetuating the body image stuff big time. Yes,
guys are perpetuating. Why are guys getting ripped yeah
we found out. I was I've, found out the hard way very few ladies care yeah, but the dudes all care. It's almost universal yeah, now back to penises, really quick, ok, uh!
also some women do like bigger penises. I don't '
sure that's right! There are size queens of some of our mail.
gay friends are size queens. You know yeah that works for males a RT with it right. It is,
some girls like bigger penises, but what's even funnier about that,
is generally when guys are comparing penises they're, not actually comparing girth they're, not like a MIKE's, the Girthier
right, and that's actually more, the
I think what women who like size light with no guys actually comparing girth
and then this other. I think thing that we all think guys is that women want you to pound them. For now
our and in my research that's what guys think yeah guys the guys are mostly modeling after pornography, I believe sure, actually yeah and you think you're supposed to have like a baby arm and last, but they think that a woman wants them to be J.
Camryn on them for an hour, and no lady wants that. No, no! No! No! No! It's! You know. His
we stressful, sensitive area and that's a harsh thing
Indoor yeah for an hour an hour, yeah yeah, but you hear guys like going I'm tan trick, but are the pounding well, even if they're, not counting. If, if there are, if there's a reciprocal motion, that's going on for ninety plus minutes, yeah
I don't know of the Ladies Stoke, your tantric at that point. But what do I know? I'm not! Ok, Jonathan Height yeah, ok, I love Jonathan Height, one smart, cookie, very smart, Vail Valley, very, very smart. He said that vitamin c doesn't cure colds.
Okay, now the most convincing evidence to date about colds and vitamin c comes from a twenty thirteen review of
twenty nine randomized trials with more than eleven thousand participants Reese.
Features found that among extremely active people such as marathon runners, skiers and army troops, doing heavy exercise and sub arctic conditions
taking at least two hundred milligrams of vitamin c every day appeared to cut the risk of getting a cold in half, but for the general population,
taking daily vitamin c did not reduce the risk of getting a cold. Yet to me, what sound
the explanation. There sounds like heavy exertion, depletes vitamin c. So if you're completely depleted, then it's going to impact your likelihood to get a cold, but your average person is carrying enough to deal with it.
No, it did say. I'm taking at least two hundred milligrams of vitamin c per day did appear to reduce the duration of cold symptoms by an average of eight percent in adults and fourteen percent in children, which translated to about one less day of illness. That's kind of good one less day is better than a percent
that now it's not very persuasive unless danger habits right, so you said- and I quote,
My fear is that a lot of people think that if we remove the white male from these systems that somehow the systems are going to work magically all of a sudden zero, I just want
to be clear, I mean obviously can't speak for every person, but I mostly
I mean this argument are not saying, remove all the white males. I don't think they are okay, but I do think that some people, my wife included we've had this debate, thinks it's a white male problem and I think it's a much
the problem. You think I think any using your anything you're attributing to the white males. You could just as accurately say that's how the majority is. There's majority privileging countries there is you know any any group?
poop that occupies the majority in accompany a rat or a country and a company will
have the most amount of benefits likely share yeah.
Just saying that when you say that, as if like the left is saying that at trying to remove all the white man, that's not what's being said and it
it's just it's saying more quality, more diverse city, but not take everyone out, replace them with ethnic people right. That's not what people are saying just being clear thanks for clarifying my jewish friend was supposed to
call me this morning to give me the inside scoop on Judaism, because he said that it's wild
he believed around the world. That body is a temple or at least susceptible to contaminants and must be cleaned, especially if you're approaching god- and he said you see in religions such as Islam and Judaism. We have to like clean yourself or that when a woman who is menstruating can't go near Godley objects
was wondering so like I don't remember ever hearing that about Judaism in Israel in Hinduism. That's a that's a real thing, and so I thought maybe he was just accidentally said. Judy is on a set of Hinduism's when asked my jewish friend right is very knowledgeable up on all that. Yes, because she works she's. Very yes, and she said it could be in, like orthodoxy, she said, definitely nine reformed, but he said it could be the case.
She's going to ask her rabbi an she didn't, oh my god, you're going to say, but he passed the way. You said you went and done such a low note that I was like. Oh no, we lost him. No he's alive well kind of related, ok,
you really can't be around a bear when you're menstruating. I know that that's been a joke in a lot of movies and I always thought it was a joke. But when I was
working with Bart the Bear in New Zealand yeah, the many
rules that were given to us, you know don't don't need a dagwood around him or chicken wings
in in may- and they said, if you're menstruating don't don't come to set because bar will smell the blood and then bark will get activation yeah
I'm not. I was like well, Bartle get sexual
like: he'll get Horni, but no, he just blood gets his motor running. He gets hungry here because he it's almost like
So I animal just kill the smell blow when they smell book as they eat carrion. They damn I mean yeah, so I don't know. If that's you know we're not park rangers.
But I don't know if I was on my period. Don't know that hike around bears. Well, I'm not gonna, don't
first, I don't want to do that ever hike around there yeah and then either
But how do you know you can't if you're on your period and then you're walking down the street? And you don't know if there's going to be a bear? Oh, like a suburban bear, yeah that that you're not going to be able to avoid, but you can probably avoid going hiking it code on Kodiak Island,
let's see, if you're on your man, what, if you're planning a spring break trip and you plan it to go to yellow
stone are there bears in Yellowstone, I think so, most importantly, if you've planned your spring break trip to Yellowstone speak for your,
one time never going to get laid on spring break.
yeah, that's not everyone's goal. I went to Yellowstone on a spring break. You did
Well, we went skiing, but the first before that we went to Yellowstone for a day,
ski trip was this a white another one of the four ski trips? I went on right, but you
places in Colorado where the were Yellowstone is not yeah, so we must have been like in Jackson, hole. No, no, no, your sanity
Seventy, so you probably went to went to Yosemite. Okay, yes,
You then either went to mammoth or Lake Tahoe to ski
we didn't I've never been to either of those places I'll find out later.
Jewish friend and ask her she's, not the one. Ok. So I went to Yellowstone or Yosemite
You can remember as some back story today I said: did you ever ski growing up because
grew up in Georgia and you said yeah I used to ski on trips and I said well: where did you ski? If you lived in georgia- and you said oh killing
Breckenridge Val, not Santan. Now, and I was like what a brat use either the only time you ski disputed, the best places in the country. Yes, I was with I a I a surround myself with experts on the field of fluent experts. Here, yes and she some base give their whole life, and so they went to nice places. So I went tonight
yeah. I could have a Loras in ok now any who went to Yellowstone, but I'm saying if you, if you're planning a spring break to a fancy ski resort and the day before you decide to do it little small trip to Yellowstone
and then if they cancel 'cause you're accidentally on your period and then you have to not go hiking, but also, let's look into the hibernation schedule. 'cause, if you are on a ski trip, makes me think those bears are still snoozing. Maybe there's no problem. Maybe, but it's just a lot.
effort just 'cause period- it's not fair! Now, it's a silly
it's real in Hinduism, you can't go if you're on your period, you can't go to the Temple Right, Shannon.
who God is grossed out by menstrual cycles. Ok,
that, invented the menstrual cycle that also died roast out by it right right right. You know, I went a couple times
the Hindu Temple. I really didn't like going in debt to many people wall. There are so many reasons right in like going
yeah mainly I was wondering yeah big time triggering.
You were trying to be Elwood
and there you were gonna, be l e him he's trying to leave a lot, and here we
the only white person with all among all these Indians Temple yeah was
comfortable is really uncomfortable for me, and I just it was far away it didn't like the drive. I didn't speak any of the languages
The priests spoke so they're saying something in a language, and I don't know even a lot of the people there don't right yeah.
Well, I don't know some. Might I don't know what the languages they were? Speaking, ok, spanish rally.
anyway, and so I was just like pretending to do like pretending to pray. Many
so I was praying, but I didn't know to watt and then was an. I just didn't like it, but you know I find that that's
I used to have a big chip on my shoulder about having to like either at a meeting back in Michigan. They want you to like bow your head and do some prayers to this at Thanksgiving
yeah we did at Thanksgiving and now I'm over it, yeah god, I'm like who cares? I can yes my eyes and
join everyone in this, and you share the moment and think about it more as all of us doing something: that's unified, yeah,
yeah. I think that I'm over it, but I did for a while. I was irritated by it right. We had a beautiful
Thanksgiving am trying to name is yeah and they hosted a he bunch of us. Like thirty plus people. Fifty a bach now yeah it was so wonderful and fun. I'm in and we did a prayer and it just remove
It took me back so quickly to so many instances when I was younger and I was at friends houses,
we had to do a prayer before dinner. Grace, yes- and I was always like I
like such a fraud, yeah the impostor pastor, but yeah. I don't care now, but it was just funny. It just reminded me of that any who I deal with a lot. I know
but here you are a successful young woman living in LOS Angeles and all worked out, Fessel young white woman,
living amongst the other white people. Okay, so you're going to have to do some fast math and I didn't do the math. I can't check you, okay, you said you said the thought thirty percent of people had polio at,
grandparents time? Ok, so when is that wow
My grand father was a kid. He must
I've been born in one thousand nine hundred and twenty there's there's been a couple outbreaks, one thousand nine hundred and sixteen ok, let's say that's when he goes back on Saturday June 17th, one thousand nine hundred and sixteen an official announcement of the existence of an epidemic polio infection was made in Brooklyn NY that year there were over twenty seven thousand cases and more than six thousand deaths due to polio in the US, with over two thousand deaths in New York City alone. Ok, so twenty seven thousand cases the population in one thousand nine hundred- and sixteen was one hundred and one million nine
One hundred and sixty one thousand, oh in the UN anyway, but you just gave me the epidemic in New York. No, no, no twenty, seven thousand cases in the country nationally and then six
then how many people one thousand deaths in New York. Ok, that's extraneous information.
Just throwing that out. If I was doing eighty things you say: there's a hundred million american one hundred and one million yen, throwing up that one million. I'm also rounding up nicely. So thirty thousand would be three
percent of one million is that right right out there,
it would be three percent of a million. Also. This is like down in the
point no point: oh three am right. Thirty God was. I are off it's! Okay, I'm any! So
Wow, I might be my biggest blunder today. I mean I'm off by a factor of like ten thousand right, yeah. Okay, so Jonathan was talking about parents getting arrested for
leaving their kids in the park- and he was like- I need to figure out when the first case was so. I did some research. The earliest case I could find that was like
publicized on the news was two thousand and fourteen not that long ago, no four years ago, only four
years ago. I think we were saying it was much earlier than that, but any who um two thousand and fourteen a case of South Carolina mother
arrested for allegedly leaving her nine year old daughter at a park for hours. While she worked at a nearby Mcdonald's, a park that was about six minutes, a six minute walk
from their home in about a seven minute drive from where she worked.
She could have gone home at anytime. She has a key and she also has a cell phone as what her mom said. Ah and she was arrested yeah, I think I think I don't remember if she won the case or not, but like some lawyer really jumped on this, yeah make a name for herself right,
So not that long ago it's an it's a Monday. I knew a nominal fee now yeah and I'm in okay, some at the very end you sort of
for to something we didn't go into with Jonathan, but they were like. I really like a lot of your experiments like the one with the brother and the sister in the sleeping together, but then that's all
hey really yeah. That's my favorite thing. I've ever gleaned from Jonathan HI
call Richard challenge to think about that, William, the concept of moral
dumbfounding, that's what it's called right, so
down girl, ok, so the philosophical question at hand is if a brother and sister go on spring break.
To Yellowstone or Yosemite and melons on their period. Ok, wherever they go somewhere,
and think other friends is relevant. 'cause somehow, like no one will know it's just more proof normal. Now, it's it's
going away together, yeah and, if you're camping in a tent, no one, that's true so anyway, they're all
together somewhere and they decide that they want to have sex on that trip.
yeah yeah one time they just want to do it and then the question is he asked his students. Is that wrong
yeah, and everyone says: yes, that's completely wrong tomorrow. He says why, and so they start giving reasons like well what if,
have a baby and it's its deformed in and he says: ok,
it's so take a
ok, that factor user current a context, some birth control. It's not it's not a factor right
They say well what? If
fall in love
I think so. There was like
one is the one endlessly bring up points that really weren't possible
spit it in really is, is their stomach told them? This was immoral and then, logically, they just can't connect. The dots yeah so is call moral, dumb founding, where you you're just looking for reasons to corroborate your moral intuition yeah. He is yes in order
there's no logic behind it. Right yeah! It's interesting very interesting. You know, I think, when we played that game, I was like
it's fine yeah. I said that too. I, of course, would never
sex with my sister I'd rather cut my head off my shoulders.
But if someone else wanted to and on vacation in France, I actually can't
tell you why it's wrong yeah. I feel that way too. Weirdly
I think they can. You have a sibling so like we can understand the repugnant co right colitis with a sibling right. Yeah I mean
right, yeah, nothing Fowler. Now there isn't, but I think you can make a moral argument yeah. This is to human beings on planet, earth, yeah, yeah and
no one's getting harm. Can you go
like well. This is going to lead to blank, but that's not a part of the thing. No it's! This is a one off.
so one need anything yeah. It is a valid through Dezavala, waiting evaluating the event itself. So you're
it could lead to. Like everyone starts marrying there yeah they go home and they you know it turns into something. Well, no, that's not part of it. It doesn't turn into something in this
so so okay, but if it did
if they fell in love. Let's say yeah looks so gross.
it is grossly, but but what if they fell in love, but they did
Why did we won't have children, because we know this would not get a vasectomy on the flight home is that
Now I mean now I mean it's
it's rose. Bizarre, it's bizarre and gross
but there's no ramifications of it, but it's only the gross because you're picturing, your own sister, and you know that that would not like
yeah, but it's not gross. If you just
here's. Here's! What it boils down to me is is there's zero victim,
then I know hurt yeah these two people, some our
pleasure and fulfillment out of this in no ones getting hurt yeah. Well, I guess you could argue that parents are probably very bummed out. Ok, let's say their diseased, ok, alright, great great great
yeah and they moved to town where no one knows that the brother and sister
No, no! No! No and no, I think it's okay people on net, so that the only people getting quote harmed are would be them because of the social stigma yeah
as the whole thing that saying I have friends with siblings and I would not want to be around them like playing kissy face with their sibling
it would yeah it would ruin my enjoyment of whatever activity we were doing
I just want to be able to get past it. Now. You could say that's my issue. It is easier if, but I'm going to own the issue, there's no way I could watch my best friend Aaron Weekly and his sister Jenny on a double date with me and Kristen. It would just be. I can't enjoy it hum
they'd be harming my trip. Well, they're, not they're, not harming any problem that you're just years a little sensitive, yeah yeah, I'm old fashioned. That way, don't like when brothers and sisters are kissing
see you sound like all these people. I don't like it that doesn't
moral or immoral. I'm fine with it!
yeah. You would hang out with them one
friends or you were dating Carly. Oh my god, I'm even you saying that sentence. I almost lossed conscience consciousness. Yes, I mean, oh, my God,
yeah! Okay, are you trying to say that you could handle being around me and Carly yeah? I love. I would be like that it would take
it would take a second to adjust. Well, I would, if you guys-
love. If you were in love, I mean what can I? What can I?
we have a love is love.
so that way for real, well, we'll we'll yeah. You know that someone who's appalled by this will say. Then what about bees
Ellie, but then again I think the animals a victim- that's also not fair,
the animal is not reciprocating. Animal doesn't want to have sex. Yes, there is ever a dolphin if
What was dating a dolphin I'd be very pleased with
Oh no! No one at you, no immigrating lived a dolphin and they had a real connection. They both enjoyed having sex. Who cares
but there's all these stories of dolphins having sex with attempting to have sex with
Who would I yeah, but I think
I think they're playing with the Dauphin in the like turn around in there, then that out yeah that could really spooky yeah, they're kind of rape. Me yeah, that's what I've heard yeah me too, but again so if the dolphins in the, what do you
a woman wearing love. How could they be in love? This is see now this is getting. This is getting out of control. Why? How could that dolphin,
reciprocating any emotional anything for that person. No when she looks
to the dolphins eyes. She feels whole
do you think you could be in love with a corpse? Now, that's a great one, that's even more on point! So, what's wrong with necrophilia,
persons, deceased they're, not suffering suffering yeah I mean the person is having sex with a corpse is clearly suffering, but I guess it's their choice. To suffer well see this. The reason this gets b
because clearly that person is not psychologically well. So
Allow allowing. I would argue that someone who wants to make love to their sisters, not Psychologe
correct in all of these circumstances. That's true yeah that they're, probably not healthy, so to allow it is to perpetuate some really really mentally unhealthy behavior for those people, it's bad for them, yeah. It's just. Do we live in a country where we protect people from them from themselves
we let them eat. However, they'd like we welcome smoke, cigarettes and drink alcohol. You know we generally say no. You know if you're hurting yourself, that's up to you know interesting. Did he say anything else? You shut your computer.
I'm doing my back or you are
there. You are out no. I finished. Okay
alright, that's it. Alright, I love you that was fun yeah. I, like I like talking to folks like that that really demand that we rise to the challenge. Yeah yeah yeah
year. All right well, merry Christmas we're getting closer and you know how I feel about the holiday love it.
I also want to add that were we're juggling going
ideas, we can agree on that, but I definitely want to have a Christmas. We are well we're. Gonna have some Christmas see stuff happen in our last episode of the year right on on Christmas, Eve, Christmas Eve, and I want there to
sleigh bells. I want they want to bring in some singers. I'm going to dress up, I don't know either is Saint Nick or AL for who knows Rudolph the Red Nose reindeer.
Try to really
you're going light a menorah and will probably throw some Kwanzaa deck,
Asians, and trying to make it all very inclusive, yeah, diverse holiday, spectacular it'll, just be all of us white people
you the whitest among them, and we will. We will celebrate all the diversity in the world. So I love
you in Merry Christmas.