Sam Harris is an American author, neuroscientist and podcast host. As the most referenced person on Armchair Expert, Sam enters the attic with an unparalleled reverence. On this special Thanksgiving episode of Experts on Expert, Sam makes our podcast dreams come true. The two discuss Sam’s commitment to honesty, they talk about the country’s political polarization and they consider the idea of separating art from the artist. Dax wonders if Sam operates out of fear, Sam talks about his battle with Batman and Sam attempts to take his foot out of Dax’s mouth.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
There's a turkey, happy thanksgiving everybody here today, Turkey Day, I stole that in nation of a turkey from our weekly, that's his in person. He does such a good turkey in person what it needs. I know before. I knew him. I think I went gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble her standard yeah, but then he goes, and I think it sounds more like a turkey yeah, I think you're right. Well, it's a great day. It's a day to give thanks. today on experts on expert, we have SAM Harris who everyone knows. I I love his podcast waking up with SAM Harris. And this has been a long time coming. We've talked about SAM Endless, yes, but what is really relevant, and I want to give a big big warning that this episode
than anyone we've ever done, probably is for lack of a better term, potentially divisive and were quite critical all about religion and varying degrees between and I and then Monica others kind of three points of view. But you know I want to warn everyone that that, if that is a topic that will not make you feel good, I just want to warn you, because it's quite heavy in that yeah and another thing to just remind people, is that this pod test is about learning about our guest, an what makes them who they are and what they're interested in and what makes their work check. Yes, so this stuff that we're talking about is part of SAM's dna at this point it's well it's what he finds the most compelling. So
there's no way we're going to be able to interview salmon not talk about this stuff, because it's what he finds important and that's. Ok, everyone can have different things that they is written books on it, yeah yeah. So if you're interested in SAM Harris please enjoy it. Is a dense mother out yeah he's a smart cookie. Don't try, listen to it after you've, gotten all that in your tummy, because you'll probably get a little sleepy. That's true, and again, y'all know how I feel about the menu. I don't love it, but certainly right now, I've got up at One thousand calories of white enriched flour, or way of my favorite hawaiian rolls I don't mind given kings a shout out, so it's a free shot out or boy boy, you know, gets me through this Thanksgiving kings. Lion rolls if they get through with I do stuffing in the sweet potato casserole
Yeah! True, that's not I get through, but I gotta tell you it's a nice soft ride. When I tear into that loaf of kings, Hawaiian so please enjoy SAM Harris and happy Thanksgiving. Everybody experts is brought to you by. I Spotify Amy Schumer presents three girls, one Keith lets you be a fly, and comedies filthiest wall each week, Amy joins her friends and fellow comedians, Bridget Everett, Rachel, Feinstein and Keith, once for candid conversations about sex culture and stand up comedy. It's your typical hard hit educational roundtable, except with reoccuring segments like ok. Now, I'm horny the hell. Songs, games and special guests Amy and her friends explore the very singular, very, not safe for work perspectives on the world. Your mind in the gutter, with comedies greatest girl, gang plus Keith Stream, the
blue second season of Amy Schumer presents three girls, one Keith now on Spotify, so, SAM Harris. I don't think there's been any person on our podcast. That's been talked about more. I think we bring you up if, I had to say percentage. I gotta say it's. Eighty percent right at least yeah four out of five episodes. We either site you or we talk about some other guess. You've had on so you are Northstar, even though our show does it resemble yours at all. That's where it's yeah, it's great. We even considered having a sound effect every time
bring it out. We want to play a few bars from your theme song hotel. I didn't. Did we give you? The music is supplied it and then we gotta work. We got lazy, it's not that it didn't work, I'm sure followed through I'm sure whatever, but for folks who don't. I do think. A lot of our listeners have checked you up, because we do talk about you incessantly, but for folks who don't know about you, you have a philosophy. from Stanford, yep, yeah you're a neuroscientist. That's here. Why the I p stander assigned to that the truth is I function more as a philosopher of mind these days, because I am not in the running experiments or at least been awhile. It's been it's been about a year since I've published a proper neuroscience
paper and add ons. I went into neuroscience as very much as a philosopher of mine. I just I just wanted to know more about the brain as a basis from which to talk about the mind. My motives to have always been to think and write and speak about this. This intersection between Flossie Mine, in moral philosophy and scientific breakthroughs, in in understanding ourselves biologically and just our general conception of how to live a good life. You could have been born at a more perfect time to have been interested in philosophy and then also this technology comes along, where you can actually look and see what's happening inside right to some degree, yeah Totale totally there yet, but you can actually, you can propose questions to people right and then you can just watch what part of the brain is firing. While they're evaluating that question right, you can really study any active, higher, cognition or emotion. That is
out of all the people being perfectly still inside a scanner. This is Ryan Ocean is the thing that would would kill your data so and there's many many things you can do, but there there are many things. You obviously can't do it, but you know I got you study in someone's athletically. You know they they they need to be visualizing. What they're doing, but they can't be actually doing any of it. You you also are an author. You wrote the end of faith, you wrote the moral landscape and you wrote waking up a guide to spirituality without religion and your you have the waking, a podcast in which I'm assuming you stole that title from your own book in the safe assumption. But I came to know you. I believe a friend of mine recommended the Jonathan hey. I never pronounce it correctly. Hi yeah, hi yeah. He can't he hates when the when you say as he should, but yeah I, the the the first podcast of yours I heard was. Let me back up that's
true many of you might know. I, when I'm explaining to friends who you are, I go straight at well he's the guy who fought Ben Affleck on Bill Maher yes, it would you say: that's when you're more famous moments, it is as for better or worse, yet that when that, when more viral than than most things yeah- and that was before I was even like a big consumer of your thought process or anything, but the thing that was really glaring to me in that debate or I was getting frustrated- was you were attacking an ideology and he was insisting your and attacking a group of people right, and would you say that was kind of the division in your mind, that was happening. It was about Islam and Muslims and you're very critical of Islam's As you are very critical of Christianity and Judaism and probably all organized religions, an I think you were trying to make
distinction same not only are we allowed to, but it's incumbent upon us to attack bad ideologies right. We we have some obligation to point out is bad ideologies. Is that fair yeah? I was so. The distinction is utterly clear in my mind, but it's surprisingly difficult to get across for most people so and and sometimes proves impossible. So the it says is the distinction between ideas and people, and you know I. I have a very strong sense. I think there's a fair amount of evidence to back this up that all the the may hand we see created by people in the world. Most of it is not the result of bad people. Doing bad things they would do anyway because,
they're bad is the result of good people, or at least psychologically normal people, people just like ourselves under the sway of bad ideas. I think I think bad ideas or some bad software yeah so badly that ideas are far more powerful than bad people. Again, it's not to say that you know the Hitler's don't exist or that of the people who are your true psychopaths or status. Who will do bad things in whatever context they find themselves? Presumably, but ideas are really what do the heavy lifting for us and the? In the most perverse case, you have people who are genuinely good people, really compassionate people really committed to helping others, but their conception of what helps is nuts right right and completely at odds with any rational project for maximizing human well being to the people who are in on the christian context, to think that
Jesus is going to come back in their lifetime and throw centers like me into a lake of fire and that's a good thing, because that's you know the the God has has the creator of the universe. So all knowing and and all loving has some reason created the universe. This way, as this kind of massive psychological experiment, where you are tested to see whether or not you can believe believe in him on bad evidence right- and but this is just the way things should be an there genuinely move. Some of these people are genuinely moved by compassion to spread, spread the gospel to others, and so- and this is true even with a group like ISIS, you know it's like I said many people think that ISIS,
was simply attracting all the world's cycle paths to one place who- and these are people who would do terrible things anyway. That's clearly not the case. You just have to read the biographies of specific people who know dropped out of medical school in London to go fight for ISIS, and it's there they're under the sway of very specific ideas about jihad of martyrdom and just the way this is. The universe is structured more like what you had a great guest on. I forget his name, but he he himself had allowed himself to be recruited. You recall the guess, I'm talking about he, he he had put himself in a position to be recruited numerous times in the pursuit of writing about it. In one of the things he said he found to be kind of unilaterally use as an approaches. There they're really praying upon your sense of guilt right that we all have these gill.
these things that we've done that are shameful and that this is a path to redemption for our own personal, shame right and that's a part of all the recruitment, and I thought well now we're getting close to something human I can comprehend, which is we do all as humans seem to have this her first feeling that we need to repent. It just seems like a really easy thing to get people to serve come to is this. You know it's other Christians are born with original ST right, and this is a very easy concept for people to adopt, because we all do feel shame and we feel guilty about not being perfect human beings and we kind of carry around this luggage of it. And if someone offers you a way to not carry that around anymore, it's it's, it can be appealing. Yeah,
there's so much about human psychology that is not optimal in a minute yeah. We have not evolved to a lot of bad vestigial. She yet right. Yeah help this at one time. That now probably is hurting us yeah word or helps us in certain contexts, but those those are not the the majority of the context in which we live. You have a strong capacity to fear other people or to to worry about the the the the sexual experience of you or you know you what you in May two or your child, and you know: they're taboos around sexuality and, as you know, that leverages jealousy and discussed it in a way that religions canonize right. So that is, and then you have whole cultures where you know you get a phenomenon like honor killing where you know so the most perverse case you have. You know the phenomenon again. This is this is wide spread across the globe where
if a girl gets raped. The response of the men in her life is not compassion. It's a a shame that is so overwhelming that they want to kill her for having brought this shame on the family, the only the only way to expunge the shame is to kill her and given. This is where political correctness on this idea takes you on this is I mean this is the so to come back to where we started. This was the the fight I got into it Ben Affleck, because he he just said that you know that any criticism of Islam was grow, quote gross and racist minister. That must mean that got exported from that encounter
it's just here to test. I was clearly talking about ideas and not not only was I clearly talking about ideas I was, I said you know I. I bracketed what I said with this claim that you know this is. It is very hard for people to make this distinction between ideas and people right because it is you know, Islam is a set of ideas you can convert to it to toward and away from it it doesn't matter. The color of your skin is a relevant. If it is, you know, Muslims are not a race yeah you can choose to be a part of that yes, yeah and like this. So I made all this clear and then you know he exemplified all of the problems of having this conversation, because he he then just you know, was unwilling to make this distinction between between ideas and people, and I don't want to interrupt this with something trivial, but I'm going to Monicas number one crush in her whole life has been outflanked
fresh yeah. Now did you feel like when you were watching this? Ok, I watched and I understand everyone's point but Monica? What's your background, you are you in the interim yeah, but Hindu Christian Muslim kind of nothing, but my parents are Hindu technically, but I wasn't religion, but when you, but when you were looking through rose colored through rose colored glasses, I as you do or you waiting his side of the argument a little bit or did you? Would you even remember the feelings you were having like what he used to making kind of a logical point, but I do love him
I do love him as a at the end of every set over right right as it should be, but I also might first inclination is always to side on the more liberal, more people based more Ben afflecks I'd. Like that's my first response, but I am also logical enough to see the difference an I love your podcasts. I'm is equally a fairy godmother, Pakistan type of foundation, of our friendship, basically I can see the difference between ideas and people, but I also see that he probably felt fear were weaponize in the right right here. Exactly yeah. It was based out of this fear that, whatever you were gonna say was gonna help you now
L o group break the actual races to hate Moslems. It's a you you, it's not your quote. I think it is job, save my margin, our margin, yeah, who said that the left has it wrong on Islam in the right. Has it wrong on most Muslims, which I think is a very like cuts right through my my opinion of it yeah and and just to be clear, you can be focused on the suffering of people, but you should pick the right people, so I I'm very. August on the suffering of people in the muslim community who are in hiding because of their id, so the largest victims of all this to begin with the largest victims of muslim terrorism? Now, if your, if you hear that a suicide bombing happened somewhere, you can safely bet that it was Muslims, for the most part who were blown up right yeah is is just not as not Americans getting blown up
after day. Well I will say when I you know vocalize similar opinions to yours. People are quick to say: will the Christians are just as bad and, I will say, absolutely- and if I were at a dinner party during the Crusades, you would hear me talking on incessantly about how crazy the Crusades are. I just I don't happen to be at dinner parties during the Crusades. I mean any one of these religions as had a period. You know that is banned as productive in that capacity, but it just so happens that currently there is a leader in it yeah, because their contacts in which dogmatic Christianity might be worse, I mean that you yeah, because it he is this the specific consequence,
is a specific beliefs is what matters right and yeah. So it's you know. They're in Christianity has banned the hegemonic religion and that our government, like it or not, church and state, does it, isn't truly separated and that we've had policies for two hundred years now that are strongly motivated by christian ideals that have had gigantic global impacts that I don't think you would deny no, no, I wouldn't I be I I think. Generally speaking, Christianity has been beaten into submission by maternity for the last two hundred years, so it's you're not getting the same kind of theocratic overreach, but you you can definitely find pockets of Christianity that look a lot more like the Taliban and then be you know even Bible, thumping, Christianity and in the US does sure
I was in a place like Uganda. You know, Christians are you know, killing gay people and killing children who they think are which is it is, is it's. It is the middle ages, an answer yet by members of the, but the crucial thing there is that All you need to do that as a as an otherwise good person is a sincere belief in the real save witchcraft, right yeah, you simply. You presumably don't understand something about Meta, and about meteorology or whatever you think the these wages were affecting affecting. But I believe in witchcraft is all you need to do the crazy things that inquisitors and yeah and other 'cause you're saving your community. You have ultimately some kind of altruistic goal that you can justify yeah stay tuned for more arm chair if you dare experts is
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well the ways. I agree with you now a couple of the ways that I feel like you don't give a ton of attention to is just by weird coincidence. I happen to read this book about recently about the c I a you know are mean what what became the Taliban are. All these! mujahideen people again rest against Russia, and then I also have been a watch like it. A four part front line about the the birth of the the conflict between IRAN and Saudi Arabia throughout the from now. It is really fascinating, but it gave me this kind of historical context that I was missing, which is there really weren't these big swaths of fundamentalist Islam S prior to the west, dealing with IRAN over oil in the shots, in that we we really did create this modern fundamentalists. It wasn't anything what it would read. What resembles today
in one thousand, nine hundred and seventy. But you know we wanted to secure our oil. We had a puppet regime in there right and the shah was over drone in IRAN and then all of a sudden, the hobbyists in Saudi Arabia started going well, we need to overthrow the Roy, family and then the royal family, which, at that time it was a for middle eastern standards, a pretty liberal country right. They started making all these concessions. To the obvious and that all really started from our meddling in that area. Would you concede that or yeah? Well, I would concede that we thought was funded and enabled and collaborated with certain of these factions, and you know that this is the phrase blow back is what is used to describe what what happened as a result, a specifically with Afghanistan and and cater so yeah. That's as
clearly documented. The reality, however, is that the the fundamentalists in have have been there for fifteen hundred years, because it is the amount of the fundamentals of the faith, have haven't changed since the seventh century, sure. So it's there to be leveraged and they weren't really mobilized. With that there there was an imperial power that was controlling them basically, and it became a very easy villain, hero story to sell and perpetuate right. So we we have to take kind of responsibility for that. We made it really fertile for that to happen, but I mean we had other things. No one should find it easy to globally defend the hip review as foreign policy across the board? I mean there's no question, we've things that we at least in hindsight, look unconscionable, but you do have to keep in mind what a threat the spray the
communism, seemed and, in fact was of a of a me. This is this that you can't be at all this down check about. You know what reality was in the Soviet Union for people living under communism, and you certainly can't feel that it's a bad thing that communism has spread over the whole globe, given what that reality was so so we were, we were in. We are now we have the advantage of hindsight going that we probably didn't need to intervene militarily. Those systems collapse them sell right. But yes, but no way to know that there was no way to know that, but it is frustrating when you watch any any show on the history. Channel is basically like this huge, militaristic endeavour over something that was like it would have.
Itself out yeah I get, and I'm I'm not clear how much for for each case whether the conflict was necessary or not. You could you. I think you're probably argue that that the soviet defeat in Afghanistan was part of what color was crucial, apps yeah and just the fact that we were out spending them militarily to the degree that we were and they were trying to keep up with us and the you know the clinic has anyone the bankruptcy in the bankrupt and effects of that yeah? It's it's it's ugly. You know I mean it is the the details are ugly and I'm sure we don't know all the details and you it's an interesting problem that is it so, the more and more we understand the consequences of our I make in right the more of evidence of collateral damage we see. Yeah may make it impossible for us to fight not only unnecessary wars but yet necessary wars. You know it's a to get you. As you know, I'm I'm not one of Trump's
many fan all we've heard so, but so I I will. I want to go on a on a rant about trump, but you know it. It's It's conceivable. I don't know that were in that situation, but it's definitely conceivable that having someone who can credibly advertise his his callousness and his ignorance such that our adversaries recognize it they made a threat, then it may not be dealing with a rational actor because we're we're finding ourselves encountering a lot, and this is this happened a lot with jihadists across the board? we have adversaries who consciously lever with our own ethical scruples against us, may just the starkest example for me here and it's it's something that you never hear talked
very much, but it is morally and and politically one of the more interesting and and consequential asymmetries that you ever find is it. You have a situation where there are people who use human shields, then there people have to figure out how to respond to the people. Who are you using human shields writes a take of this is this happens with the Israelis and the Palestinians from time to time, as happened with I see in our engagements in Iraq and Afghanistan, and it is such an amazing thing when you think about it, because Is one group knowing that the other group is more civilized, more scrupulous, more concerned about the deaths of noncombatants that aren't their group and we're not talking about human shields. You know like they're, like in the road warrior where they, you know they captured some of your. You know people and you you strap into the cars, and I mean you have people who will literally will put their their. You know
rifles over the shoulders of children and shoot at our troops in and we and our troops will be unable to shoot back in in the normal way and be deterred to whatever degree ok. But can I I just want to own how I can relate to that bizarre thought process which is, I will be in my car let's say: I'm texting and driving, and I get pulled over by the cop I've just established that I'm willing to break a rule. I just did it. I openly break the rules of society, then I get pulled over and then the cop I interact with I'm assuming he will act in complete. accordance with the law to the letter of it like. I could push in any way an. I know he has to stay in this box right, but it is very ironic 'cause. I just proved I personally don't give a shit about staying in the box, but yet I'm expecting this person to stay in the box and not pull me out of the car. You know it is interesting that you can both be acknowledging the frailty of the laws and yet
in the other person to adhere to them yeah, although I a in that case, it seems like you are engaged in a for. First: u you've made of a probabilistic calculation that you're you're not gonna, get caught right as long as I'm not flagrantly you're, not you're, not you're, not breaking the rules with the certainty that you're going to get caught. But again these are a must. My focus so much on rules here, I'm focused on me, the underlying ethics and and compassion and concern about human. Well, I just know what it's like to have an expectation that the other side is going to behave. The way they're supposed to there is a eight utterly cynical, fully conscious and very systematic and well informed program to use a liberal values against liberalism right and this this happens, they're they're far more benign versions of this, but it is a. It is a kind of asymmetric
that little realism is always vulnerable to its own scruples being used against it as as weapons. But wouldn't you agree, though, that that's just price. We have to pay a little the way we do right so yeah. We both agreed that yeah. Unfortunately, it's it's not unlike our legal system, where it's like yeah, we got to live with the fact that some guilty people are going to get off to ensure we don't put anyone in this in a way that just we had to make that payment, except, except for the the corner condition we were we we started talking about where you can imagine. Is that in where we have a a a necessary war. We have to fight. You know the the the next Hitler our emerges from where right right, and yet we find ourselves civilization only in capable of doing and
would actually be required. The during our yeah like like this, how much collateral damage could we accept yeah in our war making, given that we can actually see what that looks like making a you know a guy, I think we could. You know we certainly couldn't fight world war two, the way we fought it and- and it probably shouldn't I mean, though, that many things we did that probably didn't materially affect the outcome of the war that work that caused. You know with hundreds of thousands of love lives that didn't have to be lost right, so I mean it's it's it's all, it's all to the good. Until, conceivably it isn't and we'll never necessarily know in advance when improperly cross. That line you're, bigger fear is that we have established a society and a culture right now that we can't even really of value wait when that time may be right that we have so much police scene of any kind of ideas that might be offensive or threatening. That
we won't, even if that is ever required of us. We no longer have the system by which we could bring up some very provocative idea without being labeled, something in the next communicated. Well yeah. I mean this is a concern I have just across the board on topics that are far less fraught than this. One just say it talking about anything of social importance now seems to Kerry whether not only conceive was very likely reputational risk that you're going to get smeared as it'll be some some kind of untouchable, you know and end it. It's a major talking about race or gender or police violence. Virtually anything you see that blows up as a controversy on social media,
is the result of somebody having said something that which in context might have been totally reasonable, or at least not. You know, beyond the pale or if it was beyond the pale, something for which people should be allowed to college eyes right. This bill recognize yeah. Let you know that that that came out wrong. You know I'm not that big of an but there's there's just there's there. I can this. It's amazing to the degree to which this is all being manufactured by social media. It's a technologically and phenomenon yeah, because I've not encountering this in the real world it is interesting. The example I've been giving. Lately is, you know, Obama ten years ago, was openly against gay marriage and, in fact, was supporting policy to prevent that from happening yeah we with thank goodness we've not labeled him a homophobe for the rest of his life we allowed for him to change, his mind and then get on the right side, and I just I don't see the latitude for people to even get on the right side, sometimes yeah, or if your
We have a similar fear and that yeah that was one of the things I wanted to talk to you about is: is this kind of sensitivity on college campuses? traditionally, if you believe in the ideals of the enlightenment- and you believe that a lot of our our progress has come from people making kind of provocative claims, Darwin suggesting we- you know he was not made from the rib of Adam at that time- was very threatening and offensive to a whole bunch of people or the fact that we actually revolve around the on and not the opposite that got Galileo under House arrest by the Pope. So those examples we can look at and quite clearly
they no. You need to always have a safe place to present something, and there is, I guess- and I don't know if I'm over reacting and overly fearful of this, or it is happening enough- that it needs to be addressed. I fear that students now seem to have this. This idea that they have like some kind of constitutional, all right to not be offended or have their feelings hurt. You know just seems very counterproductive to intellectual discourse and throwing a lot of things at the wall finding out summer wrong. They don't hold up. We need to throw those bad ideas up there, don't we to even find out that they don't hold up
absolutely I love you. The model for Maine is really philosophy. Seminar way be in a philosophy, seminar when you're talking about the foundations of morality, for instance, you need to be able to think out loud about why something may or may not be wrong, and so you know first, it is completely fair game in fact expected it's just totally routine for someone in a philosophy, seminar on a college campus to say, ok, so what exactly would? wrong about killing everyone in their sleep tonight right there. I painlessly right, so the first of all they'll be no pain, you're, not imposing stuff right now, yeah and there be no one around to be bereaved afterwards to be no sadness because everyone would be dead. So if
if the wrongness of an act relates to human suffering on some level, what's wrong with killing everyone in their sleep. Now, that is a perfect starting point for a conversation about the foundations of morality, yeah and you have to be able to say that, and you people have to be able to based on a prince of charity. Recognize that a perfectly good non murderous non psychopathic person would would be in the right conditions would be tempted to to float that very I yeah and free to evaluate it yeah, but so imagine what would be done to that person, social media. If, in a you know this in a political context, Rega a pseudo journalistic context, that comment were excerpted well and people said well. This schmuck can't even figure out what's wrong with in all of humanity, in their sleep or right, right right or the Jonathan high example of you go on vacation with your sister.
In you guys, write together and there's no pregnancy involved, and no one ever knows is that a moral like just going down that road, a very, very dangerous pervert for the rest of your life, yes of the famous film director, propose that question on Instagram. They would lose the franchise there you're acting right, yeah yeah, it's it's very dangerous! There's a really common debate happening. Currently I hear a lot on here and on tv and on social media, which is this notion of separating the the art from the artist and the thing I thought of today that I will That kind of compare it to and ask what your opinion is is what we would never ask ourselves is you know, should we be able to separate the science from the scientists? So if we found out that Pythagoras was confirmed, a file right. No one would ever suggest it seems it seems a good chance that it was well. That's true, he's in he's in Greece is in each Ingres different times. So, let's just say he was he, serial rapist of children.
No one in the world would say: well, we should stop using the pythagorean theorem because it would be so blatantly obvious that this is this one thing the person actually did contribute to society and benefits all of us and we can use it to great ends, and so no one would even consider that nor would they with Galileo or anyone else right if we find out something terrible about them. So it seems so blatantly obvious that we should never throw out the science, because the scientists is an right so my day, Shin from that is. If we are saying we should throw out the art, because the artist was terrible, what we're really saying is that art is in his valuable to human history, sciences. Well, I think, there's one more thing to help that could justify that the double standard there, the seeming double standard, which is that with art The value of the kind of the wisdom.
creativity and insight of the artist being successfully transferred in that medium. So it's it's like. I think also is essentially the consider what your feelings about a work of art change. If you are told that actually a person didn't even create this. This is just an a I algorithm that just ran a randomly. You know sort through data space and came up with this painting of a beautiful painting of a of a little girl right yeah. So you had this experience. You're looking at this painting made him imagineer. Let's take a famous painting like you know, Steen as world. You know and Wyeth painting that most people will see an opportunity know what you're talking about yes and you're going to get a hold of a piece. Every everyone have a list. I have a lithograph of it. Okay, so is it put it? This is a painting that has been much interpreted, it seems to have been there may have. Many layers of of what of meaning that it is successfully transmitting right. So for us, the it's
the girl in a field. Well back in the back of the farm right. I know this yeah and again a night gown. Yes, you like it shows in a dresser yeah, but so I see- and I yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, teller. Yes right there were already. yes, I already the tower of Babel. It's so very sexy negligee, yes she's in a negligee house in a field of marijuana, yes yeah, but so it it but she's far she's far from the house in there. So thing kind of in a lonely and and sad about it is it is it people look at it, it's beautiful, but it's sort of this something little dark about it and then there's something about the way she's painted, where I think it's plausible to say that she's she may be up a paraplegic so that like she's, not she can't get back to the farmhouse stored at the farm houses, either for it being a further away than we would be for someone who's, not a compromise in that way, and and so it it's and I'm sure there many layers of interpretation- I don't know, but you just
it sounds like you just transfer, whatever your fears are into this pain, but just imagine if we found out that this was just computer generated and there was thing in the mind of the artist, because there was no artist right now. I'm that changes our sense of of its value on some levels like okay. This is just all right. This is just a kind of an accident of you, know the ones and zeros right, and it's not to say that you couldn't be at some point. The future create an artificial intelligence. Would be a real artist. You know it can be a conscious artist, but let's assume that we don't have that now, and this was just you know just just pure blind algorithms, roll out all seven nine six zero enter in this set out and we got Christina's world yeah so that it that does deflate the whole thing There's there's something similar here where, if you find out that the artist was a you know, a serial killer
like your your admiring one of the clown paintings of John Wayne, Gacy yeah. That does change your feeling about it and not that kind of residue well with the with the pie factory in fear about because it's just that either works or it doesn't. Okay, so there's two things one is: you would make the choice to, let that affect your feeling on it. If you, you would be retro actively changing what your impression of the painting was. You know you decide, but I like the Cosby Show, and now it's not funny to me right. Well, it's not funny. At least it's it. Has another element to it, because it in that case, MS, will we're not even talking about just a work of art. We're talking about
in the course of an exam, yeah yeah I just I just yeah I should about on that example. But let me say: let's: let's take it one at a time. Do you think that Aprenda kisses contribution to human kind is more or less or equivalent to Shakespeare's Well, it certainly in the in the same ballpark, yeah yeah in again If we found out that Shakespeare was this horrific guy who was anti semitic or something would we be make and the right decision to rob all of us of his work in all the happy. enjoy and flourishing, that is derived from it because the source was tainted. That to me seems
logically lazy or something it seems. You're like you know he may be a bombs for you for a second. But you need to work through that. Well, it you can sort of again there's no bright line here, but if you make the art good enough and you make the moral infraction of the artist feel enough. More than it becomes a non issue is when those two curves begin to cross and The art wasn't that great anyway, and this person is a you know, a monster on the scale of Hitler will then- and that is you, that is trivial. Then we know that we don't have to pay attention to this guy anymore, but the interesting territory is where you know. The art is great, or the contribution to human knowledge, sorry, yeah and nine by any in a moral standard of today- belong in jail. Yeah. Yes, that you know that's interesting and it's it's just that there's no clear,
answer. Is you just have to decide what I'm finding it's like come again? I think it's one our failings in you would know neurologically more than I do about why we're so drawn to it, but we're so drawn to a black and white. Yes or no. We have a definition and we're so opposed to evaluating everything as it comes. It's so much more laborious to do that, but, like yes, as we go through these examples, I'll bring up Michael Jackson, you know, I think it and in any given day on in the world of six billion people we'll be up. Several hundred thousand people's day was made by hearing, beat it on the radio this morning around the globe Right- and it just seems like a weird proposition to me that, because he was a likely terrible,
had a file that those seven hundred thousand people should not have a great day? It's just that in so it's interesting you give that example in people generally go. No, I don't think we should take Michael Jackson off the radio. I don't think many people would agree to that. Many people would say we should take Cosby off TV, which I have no dog in that fight. It didn't watch the show to begin with, and it is weird to look at the person, I suppose fat has done these heinous things, but is is dicey and it almost requires a like per incident evaluation, but we have now aligned ourselves so firmly in left right all these binary compartments that it seems less and less possible for us to do that. Do you think that's a problem, but it is a bandwidth or cognitive overhead problem and the reason why we need
a sort of moral bureaucracy. Much of the time is that it just we we we don't have the time or the the attention span, to figure out everything, as though, with a first time what we were considering this problem in the in human history, so you just really you do need to find bright lines. Where is okay? Well, that's this is this: is the band we put everything that type in- and I don't think about it, but in this space it is, I don't see how we we would generate those Kriti. it really is a case by case basis of necessity and and and it's also just not even a it's, not the government doing. This is not a policy that, and that has to be you know, global or, or federal or or even local. This is you're talking about what does Disney do yeah it's archive when it finds out that one of its stars did something heinous right right, and that just seems like a judgment, call which
now, unfortunately, is being driven by an amazingly thin skin cancer learn about what's happening on Twitter in the next twenty four hours. Side to. It appears to me without any data to back this up that were it's all everything's being steered by. The crazy is five percent on the left and the crazy is five percent on the right there making the loudest headlines, and that is what people are reacting to, but just in this this case of separating art from the artist it appears there's only two camps to be in your either in favor of separating the art from the artist or you're saying no, there is no separation, I'm against it, like those appear to be the options out there for people if you're, eighteen in your defining your identity. I feel like that's a camp. You have to pick. yeah I I just don't pick because it's just there's a third option that all kind of throw the third option is
Give me more of the details are now going to how much do I, like the art, How bad was this person and How sure are we of that? There's not another side to the story. You know like I like, so take the CASA as an example. You know I have a vague sense. I haven't read, I don't think I've ever read a biography on Picasso and- and so I I consider myself fairly uninformed about the details of his life, but I have a a vague sense that he was like young women. Incredibly boorish Paramore, all the women who got involved with him- and you know he's just he's somebody who you know by any standard I'm sure was a total shock with respect to his relationships with women and also just a a colossal narcissus to me, like a his so with that that was probably of a piece with how
treat other people. So not someone who I would expect to meet and thank all here he's really a great guy. I I you know. I really like this guy go camping with him. You know, but you know his art obviously is and he's he he to find a you know more than a generation of in in the visual arts and the idea that we would I'm not sure what we would have to discover about Picasso. It would make it remotely tempting to say all right enough is enough. We get a closer look awesome, museum yeah! I got a. We got a just you to purge. You know every isn't there a potential hypocrisy there, which is basically, if you machete artist. You better behave very well. If you're a genius artist, then you know we can accept it. That does just
morally feel little have Riker Oracle right when, but part of this is is the advantage that Picasso now gets of you know being dead and I haven't done is working another time so today, if I cut the Picasso today, whoever that is, if he's caught with a you know, an under age girl who he's beaten up yeah the. There's no question: that's a career, wrecking phenomenon and yeah, and I a rap on yeah yeah, we're at a standard. Now, the time of when these people lived is irrelevant, my whatever he did, then, which I think he was terrible. He was terrible, but in regard to the rest of the world at that time you probably was so sort of normal, that's probably how most people, maybe like a standard, deviation or exactly, but we the so you have. We have to apply that to art as well and science, probably yeah
I mean in honesty, I wish I had about eleven hours with you, because there's so many things I I, let's just I have a tendency to not say the things that should go without saying it's a bad habit of running. I think you have a similar bad habit like I'll start with the obvious I absolutely adore you, I think, you're brilliant. I enjoy so many of your arguments, but I've now I've consumed Several one hundred hours of you right, I don't think any one has this level of access to another person unless they are that person's therapist yeah. The truth is my wife doesn't listen to my podcast, so you may You may know more about what I think a certain topic: Sangita yeah, but these
along the way- and let me also say you know, you're very polarizing, as you are well aware, and then I have defended you publicly different times and then I've myself, my hair yeah I've gotten snared a little bit in the thing that I it frustrates me about. That is. I also think we are living in a paradigm where, for me to like you, I'm condoning every single thing. You say which I totally reject our. I eight maybe agree with thirty percent of the things. My my wife says, and I fucking married her like I am devoted my life to her and I don't agree with most of what she says. Well, I hope I helped him to beat thirty percent so you're way above thirty percent, but there are things that we differ on, as you would expect to differ. I mean I don't know how anyone would just agree across the board with someone else. It seems very improbable. Well, let's see if we can take my foot out of your mouth, and you can tell me the things you disagree about. So it's it's Erica,
even before we do that. I just one. I just want to point out this thing that I I just want to reject very publicly, which is like I love. I love to live Quale. You guys have right. You had your issues. Well, there's parts of to lives, thing, I'd totally, love in agree with there's other parts I think he's out to lunch on and that's fine with me. Well that let me just close the loop on that because, again, this is a kind of pure a confection of social media. I no idea who he was ok, okay and he's just started tweeting at me attacking me sharper things I believe, if I recall correctly right and at a certain point out as the I have no idea who I am or what I think say- I what what are you going on about and he just kept doubling down and I think mantra got involved. There too, I think, is a technique. That's how it started actually is for both much at night we're getting attacked by him. So that was that was just what he was doing that day on twitter sure I have no. I have, I still don't know
who he is really what he thinks and I have no desire to rehash that whole thing again. 'cause I basically was taking your position. He what I had on our podcast yeah and he was talked about any, was awesome, and then I found myself kind of having to take your position which I'm not as smart as you, so I'd I'd. I doubt I executed the way you could ever, but any did force me into like up. You know you defending all of your thoughts, which is an interesting experiment in and of itself, but I do think it's we do again. I I really buck up against this binary thing where on social media, if I vocally stay that I like you that now you're that's an invitation for you to find the most arcane thing that you've ever sat in and tell me. I need to defend it or I am somehow this person because I like you are- and I think, we've kind of lost this a little bit of gray area where it's like you can totally like people and also disagree with parts of what they're saying
Oh yeah, did you find this at all that like, if you were to I assume when you have someone like Jordan, Peterson on and if you imagine there a lot of points, Jordan makes that you agree with yeah. I did so so. We've been we've had now for public debate to me. They're not they're, not bill this debates, but they definitely the character of debates, at least for part of the time on stage and says that there's a lot. We agree about this a lot we disagree about, and you know it it's just that there's a there's, a value in having a conversation with someone who you're not totally aligned with and is especially if, if it's a good faith conversation with this person is, is engaged in the same effort. You are to get at the truth and to vet their own ideas. You know I got it, and so, if it, you know, those conversations have been very useful
fun but clears example. I've noticed of late of the kind of thing you're talking about. Did you see? Follow this thing on Twitter, with with Mark Duplass friends with Mark, I have not heard about, would have it with. This was big on Twitter, so all yeah yeah call call call mark, And- and I asked what happened so- I've never met mark, but you love league guy. Let me just start listening, he seems fantastic and he I admire his work, but he went out on twitter- and he said you know anyone who's uh, I don't have it verbatim, but the spirit of it was you know for all my liberal friends. You might. If you want to hear a smart conservative who will challenge a lot of your ideas, follow Ben Shapiro, then you know the liberal mob went into Ben Shapiro, zero tweet, hit record algae and hold out the worse things. He'd ever tweet and ban has got some whoppers. You know which he
He has a massive billion records. He hasn't. He didn't delete them because he doesn't want to call it like using it. As I can and mission yeah yeah, I wanna call more attention to them by today or to make it seem to various that he was. He was the leading them, but he has. He has responded to him, he's he's res recanted them and- and he he's he's gone through- every permutation of apologizing in and and contextualizing you know, would depend in, as the case may be, may be that the need for his past, weeds and and utterances so but he's he's, got quite a a a a paper trail and so Mark God just savaged by his own audience and in I don't know who's twenty four hours later, but was it some very quick time frame completely caved in and issued a public apology to you know he's on
yes- and it was just- it- was the worst example of the mob winning. It was completely unnecessary because it should just be the is that he doesn't agree with everything by me, a number I I disagree with probably eighty percent of what band believes about on at any given topic bands, an orthodox Jew. You know like we, we don't worry about a lot of much he's a he's, a genuine conservative, but there there should be no reputational cost to hey that this guy, you know he's on the other team, like I'm, not aligned with this guy, but he's interesting locally yeah you you. You owe it to yourself to figure out what the best version of your disagreement with this guy, because he's smart right. Yes, that's it that should be totally valid in mark's world and what his fan base or what or or the or the segment. This is another problem. Social media is that who knows who he was actually hearing from a man his in,
his feet. He felt like he was. There was a consensus. It was a tsunami of yeah and says yes saying you have just destroyed your career yeah right in yeah, and yet what was it was it? You know. Fifteen hundred people tell and then this I don't wanna hear sent right, it's easy and it's the it's the most vocal most. Don't you think. That's uniquely on the left, where we can't wait to eat one another like that where it's like we're so excited to eat ourselves here. Yeah, though it this is an asymmetry that I've I've long, a moan which, which is that on the left, the left does something that the the the right never does it eat eats its own in a way that is totally in a politically speaking, dysfunctional and masochistic, and as I made it it, you can see it in the in the juxtaposition of of what happened
frank, in the end, what didn't happen to Roy Moore yeah Al Franken have? Is that clear? Yes, like, like whatever yeah, I'm, not sure what should have happened. Al Franken omit it. You know it seems, but it but but the, but the juxtaposition with Roy Moore, It was not even bothering to deny that he has a thirty year old man was sleeping with fourteen year old girl right right. He was paying no penalty at all it in republican circles. Now, I'm not saying that the the left should be more like that, but this it clearly this is. This is an asymmetry that the the last will will suffer under in any. It had had con test against the right stay tuned for more arm. Chair there we are so
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social media, entertainment, female ceos, there's analysts ratings to buy, hold and sell every stock. You also get custom notifications for price movement, so you never miss the right moment to best Robin Hood is giving listeners of free stock like Apple Ford or Sprint, to help build your port your sign up at ARM Chair Robin Hood dot com, that's arm air dot, robinhood dot com, so is another thought I wanted to ask you, which is you've, debated a bunch of people and maybe they're not framed as the base where they becomes Bates or what not I got to see. You live talk with Steve. anchor yeah that that hilariously, you were that we were having sound problems in that theater, and you were just in the monitors and so can't tell you how many people
were amazed at I've got so that, like celebrities are coming forward to adjust the equipment on stage two, we are clearly getting feedback from the monitors that were pointed out and I just couldn't sit there and do nothing- and I was like this is so arrogant of me to get up and start adjusting these speakers, but someone's got to do it. Yes, this brave man. What is this sign find a famous person who can climb on stage and adjust the sound equipment anyway. It was much appreciated, but it was hilarious, but the one thing I'm curious about I will sometimes I'll hear episodes of yours and I'll thank think you fared one way or another. Sometimes I think you kind of decimate people. Sometimes. I think people make better points on certain topics, but when I'm talking to hello SAM Harris heads in my social circus circus. That's a great proteins look you've, at least in my circle kind of reach, deity status. Where some people are just going to blindly go. You know, regardless of where you end up. I some people are just there.
They're going to be there, and I think it's as an anthropologist, I'm not once I don't practice, but someone who studied anthropology there is this unavoidable attraction. have to alpha or whoever we establish his alpha and and it can many people can occupy that position, but once you've kind of said, this is maybe one of my alpha, like my intellectual out for whatever it is, we do have a real capacity to kind of just go with people. Would you agree? I mean it's part of what Apache weights in all these different things is except I honestly this may sound self serving, but I feel I have trained my audience to be incredibly fickle with respect to they hold me to a standard that I notice many people's audiences. Don't hold them too, and this is this. The right is a symmetry was brought out really clearly in my public conversation with Jordan Peterson, because if they are it was it, there was a very much a kind of a team.
Jordan, team, Sander, Xayah, and so you could hear buy in various moments, something one of us would say would segment out the audience right, uh huh, But I I have an audience that is holding me to a standard of reasonableness and consistency and an openness and honesty that I I've trained them to hold me to any like your intellectual honesty, it I have a brand it's that like. If I, if I'm wrong, I need to admit it fast right over if I appear wrong I need to. I need to notice that and then figure out well. How this misperception is is is occurring and cancel it, whereas someone like Jordan Amazingly, is functioning in a kind of in a quiet, quasi cultic. as a religious mode. Where am I saying he's? You know naturally consciously engineering this, but he's there now he can just change his tone in a way in which we,
will get a thousand people in the audience to Applaud It has a kind of revival, is on to it and it's my audience and this, and that I love about my job frankly, is that I and hearing from people who are holding me to a standard of of you know coherence, inconsistency and and reasonable as that I have just endlessly advertise that I want to be held to, and I want to hold myself cuz. I have this. I have an amazing error, correcting mechanism you know someone something wrong with. This is a real difference between me and my you know many, you know public, you know critics and I would even say enemies in certain cases. I can probably count on one or two hands the people who have made kind of a industry around misrepresenting my views as it as publicly, and there are people who cut together audio for my podcast
making it sound, like I'm saying the opposite of what I was actually saying in context and release that as though this look look look. What SAM look at look at this racist, bastard, yeah and but then someone like Glenn Greenwald will tweet that out to his million followers now as a Glenn, and I have gone back and forth fighting, but the difference between our audiences that he ever apologizes for an error right. He can. He can consciously or not reach with something. That's completely Spurrier's about me and we'll hear in his that mentions from thousands of people saying this is the this. Is the error you've made? He will never apologize right right. If I get the slightest thing wrong about somebody, like Lynn Greenwald, does this latest thing it could be a hair's, rest between what I said he he thinks and what he actually things. My fans notice and there are no that's not you know, you're you, you you're you're you're. You have to apologize for that right right and that's fine, because I think actually
misrepresenting somebody's somebody, even an enemy is not at all. This is what I was going to commend you on. Is that one of the the ways I think you have a tremendous amount of integrity? Is that you never make straw man arguments you don't to misrepresent the other person's point to help perpetuate your own point, you, you do a very thorough job of understanding, the other person's point of view, and you have a commitment to be able to make their argument to them as well as they would be able to make it right. I think that's just forget about the ethics of it. That's just good rhetoric. That's just good argumentation! If you want to persuade somebody of anything, you should take the best version of the the position you're arguing against and and it's just it's and credibly helpfully in a public debate to be able to restate the other person's position in a way that they sign off on so you're, not talking past each other, then right, yeah. Now I know what we're or in and also allows you to then go forward, which is that what you're hoping to go yeah but
But what I will say is that what what draws me to science in general is this notion of continual betterment that it that ultimately everything's peer reviewed and no one's perfect, and they just through this process of criticism it gets better and better and better and that what science has over the Bible, which is the Bible, was just written? There is not going to be any updates. yeah and there's no new chapters, no ones going to account for any of the things we learn, and so I just think anything you would hope to believe in or look to for answers should be something that implicitly is designed to evolve and continue to take on new information right in react to that yeah. So with that said, I've not heard you probably correct yourself, I'm curious! Are there any of these debates? You can think of that you've. Lossed,
That's what I want to know there certainly debates I've had where the person I was debating credibly felt that he won for his audience. This is often the mismatch between, but are you allowed to? One of these in gone me Stephen, pointed out some really kind of profound, and I need to re orient myself on this like I'm, going to give an example. So when I, when I so when you and Steven Pinker started debating a ii right and you have a pretty outspoken fear for this- could potentially go away, I yeah Stephen, the not seem to have that number to know, he doesn't yeah and you guys went at it a bit and you guys were both ironically, quoting like some of the same authors of things, but they were say in different thanks to both of you, which is very human yeah, but when he pointed out in my opinion that you or your implant teen in
Is any of these a eyes, the fundamental thing that they don't have that all organisms have, which is, is simply that all organisms innately are competing for space and against one another, and that that in itself is just something that is so unique to an organism that we would have to so thoroughly designed to put it into a machine that it just seems crazy that we would take the time to do that, because that would insure our eventual annihilation when he said that not connected for me is like yeah. That's right, the the half of our meant more than half of our hard wiring programming is for us to have the highest fecundity rate in that she, a weird hiccup of being an organism that, if a machine doesn't have at any rate when you were debating him on that, did you did you take that point and go like oh yeah? That's that's. Something to think about no what that actually seems like a red herring to me. I don't
Remember that moment in in that conversation, but my general feeling about Steve on this point is that he's not for one reason or another, actually engaging the best points on the. this item. He he has a kind of straw. Man version is certainly his book in order RON man version of the of the concern me to the right people are concerned about this or not concerned about Terminator styled. Robots is suddenly becoming malicious, like where it will, where you have a ai that was benign, but then it forms a hatred of of humanity and there's several people who are arch skeptics about this concern likely this is this. Is this concern so five? First of all, not only is it crazy to think we could ever build ai that wouldn't be aligned with our interests. We may never bill
a generally I at all. So this is a. This is the whole thing might be a pipe dream right, service, skeptical skeptical about the the just the fundamental phenomenon of building this technology. I don't think those people are are seriously engaging with that. The real are so yeah. This there's! No, that that wasn't a moment where I felt like oh, but so, but had it been there are many moments like that when I'm in dialogue with, because I want you to be like science, you know yeah yeah, I want to see you of all. I want to see. You occasionally come on admit that you are wrong, like a in that same live event, your. What is a a something profound. You reverse your position on recently in the one you could think of was death penalty, which I too have had my position reverse, but I I thought that was maybe an easy one. Oh yeah, it was a clear one and it was a big one, but I think
also said this recently on. My podcast exist is a more recent one way in response to that very question. So I had Neil Ferguson on the podcast. We're talking about Trump and Neil, is a historian and the husband of eye on her cell okay, so ok, so they're. Quite quite the power couple So if the Ballon action part of yeah social justice of a- and so I theocracy and history in this case, but Neal's a you, know a powerhouse in his own right and he's a historian is now it's got an appointment. The Hoover Institute, I guess, is kind of a libertarian he's, not he's not a true conservative, but he's you know, I guess road group right of center off and on any of these questions, but certainly not a social conservative, but he
someone who is not he's not a trump supporter, but he's someone who he he he's just. He hasn't he's kind of stayed out of the fray on this topic. To to, to some degree, is really more than I had. And so I got into my litany of reasons to think Trump was just think. Trump was just the Orange night that we I need to find some way to to expunge. He said well it yet. Have you ever thought about the the counter factual situation of just you know what, if Hilary had one I, what would the world look like? Yes, Hillary were president, and if we could, because everything you're saying about how bad it is, that Trump is president seems to be predicated on your having full formed a clear conception of
what what the what the world would be like if Hillary were present and how much better a world that would be right, and he had many reasons to think that the world would be perhaps in some ways, worse, right and and and one with one of his reasons, which is a you know somewhat near paranoid and cynical. But you know possibly true reason what which is that he he thought that the if trumpet lost the election to Hillary, the response of the Trump vote would have been something close to an actual insurrection. We write, we would have had a real problem on our hands. They had because it could be a trump would of it is said this is you know a year. This was a for afaik resolve. Yo rigged election was totally right. He was, he was clearly preparing the ground for that response and
Who knows what chaos would have bins in Sudan and in in kneels view, which you know I I'm not sure I agree with, but he he views. The election of Trump is kind of a lancing. The boil that really had to be Lance like like like this was this was a powder keg and it had Hillary been elected it. You know it would have a floated, and so what was interesting to me is that all of my complaining about Trump was informed. Virtually not at all by engaging that exercise. seriously pairing where her potential presidency would be worse, is his right right and all of the possible consequences, and so it It definitely changed my view of our current situation. It's not it's not that I trump looks any better to Maine, but
as I I realize, what a mother many things I don't know. I mean I'm being motivated by a presumption of knowledge that I don't actually have, and so it took a lot of the energy out of my mind: okay, sorry all yeah yeah yeah, and so that was a you know. That was a a quote. Debate style point that land did. But this is just the way I am which is noticeably different from the way many people I engage our, which is that and I've said this many. I'm so my I don't want to be wrong from longer than I need to be right- no, you know say the moment is uniquely painful. I've been wrong on here and had to admit it and it if it happens quickly enough all people notice and all the other person notices is that they have the pleasure of educating you on a certain Can you run a seriously that's the way it is well I'd. So I don't know that. Okay, and so you, if you, if you, can revise your your we're
view in real time under pressure, it doesn't have this character of all. That's embarrassing. I just you know I dug in and now I just got slaughtered right. The world and what I thought it was a list. So now was so now. What is it? So? You don't have any fear that it retroactively like for you to admit you're wrong publicly. You don't have any fear the it's. The your other arguments. You've had now seem to lose credibility like do you do you feel this responsibility to get it right all the time because it with an advert, only diminish all the other point you've made. I feel a responsibility to be honest. In every moment right. So if so, if I'm wrong and don't see it well, then that's you know It's not an error that Miss error, but it's not a violation of my core ethic, which is to be on right right. If I don't see it as if I don't see it, I don't see it right right. Babies and that understand. Is that undoubtedly there many things I don't understand, so I'm wrong about
Those things are capable of of being wrong about those things, because I'm just ignorant of certain facts or I'm not logical enough or whatever. It is the moment that, someone that I recognize that I'm in the presence of someone who's making a good point that is running against the and one of my stated beliefs, I mean those domino's began to fall really quickly so I get like a and that- and that is actually the pleasure of conversation for me. So I am- and it's I mean it's great- have a podcast where you can do this. We can just invite some smart person on whose much more than a expert on any given topic you might be talking about. Then you are there, some of that. That's very admirable because you, you have a specialty which is neuroscience and really your office you're. Rarely talking to a fellow yeah. I was talking to yeah, no, it's it's it's very often at least ninety percent of the time. I'm talking to someone who knows much more about something that then that
I do and that's something the is- is forming a significant part of the conversation right. Yes, this is the position I currently find myself, I'm at least in a lazy boy, but unlike a normal journalist or normal interviewer, whose job is just to kind of poke that person? get out of the way. I am usually approaching it as a conversation where I'm going to take up at least forty percent of the the the time, because I do have a dog in the fight I have. I have opinions about what we're talking about and yeah. I want to pressure test. Those against someone who all so has strong opinions and for good reason, because this is really what we're talking about now is really in their wheelhouse yeah, and so it me on the line in a way that is like my friend, Joe Rogan, who who's got a you know. As you know, a huge podcast we've talked to many of the same people, but at the end of the day he can you know if he puts his foot
now they can say you know what the I'm I'm just a comic. You know like I'm right like I don't have to get this right. Yeah and so he's got he's, he's doing a high wire act, but there's a net right yeah. I have a high wire act and if I'm only in it is it is, it is a different dynamic. But for me that there really is there's and there's nothing at stake as long as I am honest, right now, I'm either honestly wrong or I'm. I recognize that I'm wrong, and then I change, but my my commitment. You know Moreless instantaneously right. This could just be my own personal preference, but it I am always curious, is, if you think about up his Tamala g right. You know how we know what we now I'm is. I'm equally is interested in why I chose the things to learn a
out, as I am the actual things I've learned about, and even when you and I had dinner, I was because I I I was falsely seen a parallel between you and I were both children of divorce and stuff right, and so only one of US races motorcycles. Oh yes, oh well, that's true, but I'm is on the similarities. It would be fun for me I hear you question even why you're drawn to the things you're drawn to or Is that something you do do you think you have a handle on? Why you're clearly drawn to the empirical right? There is some kind of comfort Inn that are you interested in? Why you're interested in things? I guess that's my question. I don't do a lot of that, I guess I guess the the Should I have asked, is why am I touching topics that predictably produce so much
yeah. I don't. I don't need to do this right like right. Do it do it like wind do upon cast on race? I go out from from any angle yeah like what? What's? What's in it for me now and but yeah no, no blue, ribbon at the end of the year yeah, but my my last podcast was on race right right and the, and I I recognize the reason why I do it is it does come down to is the coincidence of of human suffering and conflict and I sense that it's obviously unnecessary. So it's like it's like the unnecessary part of human misery that yeah. That really motivates me to to react or respond whatever I can bring to it to that it to the problem yeah, but so that you could have gotten a phd in jazz history or renaissance painters or any number of things that are to study in this world in you were so clearly drawn to philosophy and then the brain and I just
under. If you have any sense of what it from your childhood, why those things seems like a question she needed to ask or if they were comforting when you've got that information or if there's you know what. Ironically, it's it's a quasi religious calling in the sense that the thing that brings many people to religion, release anchors them in their religious beliefs is death and they you know they were the reality of death, and I mean having lost people and wanted to know what that's all about, and how can you prepare yourself emotionally for the inevitable losses that will all experience in life, and I had a few people close to me die early. I mean the one that really impacted me was a best friend died when I was thirteen and then my father died when I seventeen, but I had you know. I remember I mean I had dogs, die early as a kid and I had a grand father die earlier. That's why I like death was something that punctuated by life for as long as I can remember,
I actually went into Iraq animated into independent study of religion, and you have known at the time, but you know quasi new age phenomenon and psychic phenomenon anyway, I just what what happens after death in a what is consciousness? How what? What are we, but, so you you had some incidents early work. You are forced to recognize the the vulnerability of being human. If your friend dies at twelve years old, your dad dies at seventeen you it's. It's obvious that you're, not you, you have no assurance that you're just going to make it to a hundred years old. That's pretty obvious. I guess you train Jiu Jitsu right, you had the podcast with the security specialist. Yeah Gavin about. I had a few I had it was a Gavin De Becker. I had Scotty reads: who is a former swat
right then I had to chuckle will like the Navy seals. I had. I had a few. This is for me I'm not as interested in security, but because I don't I just don't really have a fear of that stuff. For right or wrong. It's just of the many weird proclivities of my personality, I'm just in general, not very fearful right. Do you think in general, you're, fearful as just your worldview is a little fearful? I wouldn't you can call it realistic, I'm sure, but that would be bad rap is not the a motion that I experience, that causes me to pay attention to any of these things or do any of the things that that you like to train to get service at a high rate. Thank you say. My first was training. Jiu Jitsu is just flat out fun and addictive. I mean like once, you've started doing it it's just it's like it is the most addictive sport I've ever I, like fear, is the last thing from your mind when you're your trenches, but even
Are you working with firearms? It becomes a kind of what once you go through. The the down the rabbit hole into having decided well. This is worth your attention. Then it becomes just like a guilty pleasure. It's like it's like you know, like I imagine, So it's something like riding motorcycles or whatever and let's say, let's say, riding motorcycles like one way to get into it was you know there are many safety situations where being able to ride a motorcycle could save your life right like in some world phenomenon like you're, going to want to know how to ride a motorcycle sure, let's say you believe that and then you get into it. Well, then, all of a sudden riding motorcycles presumably is hugely fun and if you're not you're, not well rated by fear, while doing that, that's a great example so riding motorcycles. I love it. It's a huge part of my life. It has been for thirty plus years
of the awareness that I as a child was trying to do anything that could establish me as manly. That was just one of many things. I would jump off the roof. I would jump off a toll bridges. I would fight other dudes. I was in constant search of approval from my peers that I was family, and I do believe that's because I just didn't have a dad around. There was no doubt to go like well done, son. You really did it, and so I was just endlessly looking for that. Approval from my male peers in the you won glory where I'm from? Is you fucking jumped of motorcycle or a bomb fire you know so, my god I was going to do that or you punch to do at the bar, who called your girlfriend. Abich like these are the things I did. So it's on two levels: I very much enjoy it. I do it. I love it. I could tell you a million reasons why it is meditation if I go to the track on a motorcycle the one place in my life that for thirty minutes I absolutely can't afford to have another thought other than the next turn in breaking an
alright and if I have another thought I will crash right in so that in itself is meditative and I enjoy it. But if I'm just being honest about what got me into it, it was a war, one of many ways to establish my manliness and I have a neurosis like any human being, and it's one of many. You know what well so there is something similar for me there in that. Also having been raised by a single mom, yeah there's a I can. Not nothing ever happened to impress this on me, but I think feeling just feeling like they're with the wall. Wasn't a man in the house right and feeling that there's there's some reality of of volatility. You know, I can't you have a you know you, you have a mom who it is out having to
unction out in the world with her young son at a certain point, the young son can perceive the world to be a hostile place, are perceived the stress in his mother. You know like it when she when she doesn't feel safe and yeah. You know we we traveled to and may she was sued by my life now as a parent. You know incredibly bright. David, how she took me out in the world we're in we went to to Africa. We went to China when it just opened up. I mean what I can see it. Baller yeah. I mean she is single mom and she had never. You know she didn't have a history of having traveled. You know as a young person, so she she just wanted to travel the first time in her life and she had a eight year old kid or a nine year old kid weather who she had to take, and those are fantastic, it is. But the reality is, I'm a young boy in a world where men are are noticing my mom she's single woman, so so
I hate it when my mom or tank tops who said if a guy who's out she's Louise, I can see you guys are looking at my breasts boobs. So I I thought I I don't have explicit memories of that, but I'm not sure that how it happened, but I am in so. Yes, I'm sure that got in there and the. But then I'd is just a matter of having thought through these, admittedly is somewhat rare circumstances, but there it, but the truth is they're. Not all that rare I mean we're, you know it like. I I feel pretty rational in the degree to which I prioritize certain risks, for instance, you know or like most people, I have some nascent anxiety around flying. If you get if you on an airplane and there's any significant turbulence My brain is saying okay. This is this the moment where You know I go it all ends, but the reality is that flying is so safe.
That is. It is irrational to worry about dying in a plane crash, so little and it is, but it is Totale rash. to worry about dying while texting while drive. And almost nobody worries about that right. That's right or heart disease, or can exact number of big killers yeah. So my the things I worry about are fairly in, portion to the the actual risk in in so far as I understand is rest again, the site, the psychology is in fear in the instead, so I put it, you know you that we put it when you put your helmet on to ride a motorcycle, and when I put my seatbelt on in my car yeah, it's not fear. That is that is inspiring. That move is just an awareness that you know the difference between getting get into an accident with the seat belt on or off is enormous right, so it's it's worth put in on yeah and It's the same way with the a locking my doors at night. It's like I could just leave the front door open, but there's a reason to lock it.
And yet implementing that is not at each moment, driven by this, this feeling of anxiety at least Oregon. I'm certainly not aware of it being have. You ever had psychotherapy did a lawyer time ago. Okay, did you like it to do recommended at this point? I'm endlessly curious I'm doing anything. I'm doing, I don't think I'm just randomly doing anything. I mean, if you it's like. I am on responding to a sensation of hunger, hornyness or all these things, but we blow or than that. I, I am usually the victim of something I'm over. Coming from my childhood, I think it's kinda inescapable with respect to what I pay attention to my podcast. What I write about that's a largely driven by just a minute ago that there's two filters like is it into Christine and is it consequential and sometimes just pure interest wins and sometimes just a consequence of this sort of boring, but there's no way around it? Let's talk about
how in a bad social media is whatever it is yeah, but it's it's the the convergence of those two things where this is actually ethically or intellectually interesting, and it's all oh either hugely consequential. Now or it will be, and they said like AI is a great example. There was like, I think it. I think it stands a chance of being an enormous problem. If we do it badly and it's just very cool think, about two: oh yeah, when you like, I hate you, I did you read on home all day as the second yeah yeah yeah yeah. When he's talking about what your phone could potentially do as it's measuring your cortisol level and your blood sugar in it you're about to walk into a meeting, and it tells you don't speak in this meeting is the last time you did when
levels for this high? You got reprimanded like that kind of being able to set a goal for yourself. That's basically setting a goal for your narrative self. That's going to be at odds with your experiential self, is fucking fascinating and what will the device prioritize? Your narrative cell for your experiential self, that is a fascinating thought, experiment I think yeah and it's one that we need to run for ourselves, even in the absence of that technology. That's absolutely so much of what we do is It is this negotiation between what it's like as a matter of process, to do those things and the payoff of being able to retrospectively. Say: we're satisfied, good or bad about it. Yeah! It's in my experience on planet earth. Rarely do those things me these fully. Almost everything I enjoy doing is something that my narative self is not going to be proud of that night. That's the tragedy of the human condition so
in keeping with what we're talking about with fear. So I too who share your critique of Islam, miss you know. I have a fear of that, but I also oh would Recognize- and I've heard you already admit to this, but I'm going to take you further down that this crazy, high improbability of ever being the victim of a terrorist attack in the United States. Yes, exam, except in this one, cabbie either. Yes, it is true to say that very few people are dying in in the United
it's from terrorism. Yes, I agree, I mean israeli israeli time is like me, yeah islamist or otherwise right yeah, but it is also true to say that there are people waking up every day, trying to figure out how to get their hands on nuclear material, more biological weaponry so as to bring off a a an attack that is orders of magnitude, bigger than anything we've ever seen. Right. Yes, that's certainly true, but I think the more compelling argument you've made is that it's not about the terrorist attack. It's our response to the terrorist attacks or the last time we had a significant one, nine hundred and eleven, we invaded Iraq and we invaded Afghanistan and we've spent one point: five trillion dollars on those endeavors, and so reason it's so paramount. This issue is that our our over
act so large that that's what we're really trying to alleviate or or avoid yeah, and we have to price that in because I think that over Action is inevitable, and some of it is not some of it's just like what happens to the stock market when the next nine hundred and eleven hits right like like well what global financial crisis will that that rotate- and I agree with you on on both those points- but my question to you is, if that's true I agree it is, then, why not make the focus of your work confronting The disease and not the symptoms of the disease is an over reaction, which I think is what others in this two diseases, because the other disease is the fact that hundreds of millions of people at a minimum. Thank that you should be killed or leave in the faith, MR,
Islamism is with this one problem right, so you know I and I know the sorts of people who are now threatened with death for having left the faith right so like this is a a human rights concerns that is so much bigger than the kinds of g legitimate concerns. We have in our society where we're just not getting it right. In terms of you know, political equality between men and women or you know, Gender issues are like all that stuff. Fine, let's worry about that too, but I know people who are hi Dean for saying that they for being gay or for or JE or for you know it or for saying they. They doubt the existence of god- and you know this is just a cut down on human rights level and the kind freedom of speech level, a traditionally liberal yeah. This is just a I, as the liberal, in the find this intolerable that the feminist in me who's actually concerned about the plight of women. You know if I go down the list of you know like we must prioritize. This well, you know the the fact that ninety eight percent
girls in Somalia or still getting Clitorectomy's alright and knowing the details of what That's why we call that a few female mutilation where we are in Anthropology will just don't call it female circumcision, because that that gives people a sense that is somehow equivalent to male circumcision, and so we know how big a problem is that it really let's just say the difference being is that the ultimate goal of male circumcision, when it was enacted was, was cleanliness in the the true motivation behind a clitorectomy is to deny a woman pleasure during sex yeah and and different goals, right yes and the details of the procedure and the health ramifications of all of it is just it is just your misled by a term to call them both circumcision yeah. You know so if you're actually concerned about women. I just I can't see how you have
battery acid thrown in the faces of girls, who are whose crime is just trying to go to school in Afghanistan, like how that isn't just soak written to focus on. It is a kind of just that. Coming back to the terrorism angle is there are two problems: there's the our potential overreaction to a human engineered act of terrorism, but that but then there's just this clash of worldviews, which has millions of casualties, and it's it's clear- what the right side of history is here. No like we don't. We don't have to debate whether girls should be allowed to learn to read anymore, yeah. How how does one focus enerji and confront this year?
national, over reaction that we all have, because it's kinda centered in this notion right of blame. Was it all bloons talk about who is talking about when you can, if they give you just the victim of an accident medical malpractice versus the guy, he was how fake give right people cancer to treat it's! The results are the same because we've attached blame to it. Israel bias we trail bias, because if we as a country we're just about alleviating as many untimely deaths as possible, we would start going through list if we were allocating resources- and this includes our military and everything else right- we would start with cancer or we go to heart disease. We would just be with. If all. If we truly were honest about wanting to prevent death, we would confront an attack and allocate resources to about six thousand things before we got too many that things were most upset about, except certain things,
more than mere death me mere I, and it's not necessarily wrong to be troubled by them. So to have someone in your life die of heart disease? Suddenly is one thing to have them? run over by a car is another thing to have them, raped and tortured, and then murdered is another thing. Now the net result is the same. There's like there they're no longer here right and they were now deprived of their their presence in your life quite suddenly and unexpectedly, there there's a surrounding set of facts that for better or worse angel is the level of human suffering in response to that laws and in certain cases I would agree it's. It's is starkly irrational. If you could just sort of change your the way you think about it. Well, then, you know you should you know you'll you'll feel better.
and everyone would feel better lately would be allocating one hundred and thirty three cents on every dollar to the military right bigger than the next eleven militaries combined. It seems a little disproportionate to me. I have a real quick thing to say about the radicalism conversation. I don't think anyone would disagree with the absurdity and craziness and horror that is happening in all this. Places. But don't you think that just saying that over and over again without solutions is not all that helpful like when you had freed Zakaria and I feel like he was really kind of saying that, like you have, it is showing that that was an example of a kind of an illegitimate move. He Mary Elise, is he sort of played it. Was it wasn't the race card, but it was kind of the kind of a quasi race and culture card may basically said. Listen I come from the community,
sure, I'm a Muslim you're. Not you know. I like. I know that what you're doing is counterproductive right and, and is it like it's a trump card he could play with me? Would you You can't play with my did not was you know and and been much admire, totally aligned on this so that, but it is kind of an illegitimate move because it wasn't it wasn't. Certainly no, Erica my take seriously, but there is just the there is clearly as a path and it's the path forward, that every other religion has been forced to take, which is to moderate. It's crazy medieval views under pressure from secular humanistic, cyantific, democratic, liberal valley. and so this it is uh. I don't think you're representing his position super fairly 'cause. I listen to that and I love that thing into me. I heard you both saying the exact same thing, which is that this change has to be led by moderate Muslims. You
were very insistent that for that to happen, we must first start with acknowledging all love the asinine parts of the scripture, and that at first needs to be debunked right or acknowledge that, let's say Jihad is back add or whatever that you were pretty. I think again to this notion that know that needs to be a part of how all this happens, and I think he was saying that's not going to be helpful to them. You coming in pointing out all the errors in their thinking isn't actually going to be. The solution could be the moderates, the moderates, who have already become a little more moderate living as an example and then intervening so I just Ok, so so I because again, have the evidence, there's two things: As I acknowledged, and I I'm sure I acknowledged for read that there are different roles to play, here like a my role is not to be parachute, not parachute, down into the Islamabad start talking right, you don't,
go, I'm not tempted to try. just to do my fear, based worldview suggests. That would be a bad experiment We have it people who essentially jihadists, who are now atheist. because they were watching my Youtube videos like so there people who are deaf, they have come out because of me or people. Like me, Christopher Hitchens, or Richard Dawkins, but I'd be first to say that that's not the normal use case right normal case is something that's far safer and just a a bit more reasonable. You know taking the rough edges off of. within eyesight of Qatar. Do by. Those are the things to me that seem like how that happens. Well, there's that too, but it it but there's yeah I mean this is the effect of maternity, but again that does that a edged sword because maternity is also add. Ties its moral and spiritual bankruptcy, as well in every moment, so you're getting this pen
swing away from All the ways in which people have trivialized human life back into more fundamentalist adherence to not just Islam, but every kind of religious faith yeah it many people who are being converted by how much better life is get materially and socially. In you know, the West say are in a place like to compared to a place like Afghanistan, yeah there people who are reacting against the superficiality of that the merriment the realism of that and finding it necessary to be more doctrinaire and more dogmatic, ok Last thing I want to say: is there the really interesting moment when you interviewed Eric Weinstein where he was kind of
through the fact that he had had a pretty traditional orthodox jewish wedding. I believe- and he himself is self professed, atheist right and you were kind of like questioning that and he just simply said to you. Well, that's because you SAM would put truth at the number one principle in your life, like truth, is the one guiding light in your life. What was what was profound about that observation to me was simply I to put that I fetishize the truth. I want some kind of certainty and it just to me. Oh wow. It is a choice you make and you could put any number of things in the number one slot right that you're trying to service in your life. It could be truth. It could be compared. It could be love, it could be any number of things- and I was thinking you're married you've,
stayed married, which leads me to believe there has to be men. times in your real life, where it's on the table for you to point out that that's inaccurate, what she said. That's not actually what happened on the way to get groceries but use legal, go, that's not going to be my priority right now. My priority is going to be comforting, my partner, who it's something that triggered some emotional thing in her or fear, and my job and in this moment is to throw away the facts and get to what's important, which is comforting my partner. which I have agreed to do. Does that happen or you don't ever budge on that? You know I did not run the stop sign. I I can tell you why stuff for two seconds? Well it with this is that I'm a little a little more of a stickler for for truth and that Yeah. I've been so so so this is something I get in in my book line, and so it not so much. The truth is
Paramount for Mavis is close to that, but it is more that honesty is paramount and times the honest truth? Is that you don't know something right here? eight of knowledge. Is I go to such a coin toss. You know you have a fifty percent chance that it's fifty percent likelihood that something is true or false, say so to honestly represent ones knowledge of the world two one cell, and to others is my default position, but, as you rightly point But there are cases where you feel like you. Should you have to pick battles or there's no reason to go there right there, so it like this is some sort of hobby and you're honest about your objective, which is to be a good partner to somebody yeah yeah, but I've. I find that honesty. The truth. Insofar as you can apprehended, tends to be so. So useful that it, the there there's rarely much.
tension between being honest and being good or being of our support of our compassionate or or a good friend It's not that I'm never in that situation, but once honesty, It becomes your gonna master value. and everyone in your life knows it. Then you you sort of train everyone in your life to know what to expect from you right like like you're like you're, the God like people. Don't often ask me what I think unless they actually want to know what I think chart you know. and they're do you, like my overalls, I very much like the one you. Encounter a mismatch between the someone else's expectation of what you know, Honest communication is like an my own. Like the person doesn't know me very well or they you know so or if someone is asked for creative feedback on something and
I start to give it. I realize okay, wait a this purse. really just wanted to be told that the think was great, yeah yeah they a cheerleader. They just added we're just not on the same page but Rarely is that the case for may- and it's it's just amazing how they're a fine of one's life it is to be to to have advertised to to to yourself into the world sure that's the way it's going to be, but yeah. I I think we both agree. your obligation to the colleague who wants your input on a paper versus your covenant. You've entered with this being too emotionally support each other and make each other feel safe right that the stakes of that are are much higher and they do require. I mean just in my own case. They definitely require my wife will go you never offered to do blank and in my mind, I'm like well no Wednesday, I did alright, then I think
play I remember I did like and I can start building a pretty defendable case. that she just erroneous in this claim yeah yeah and it's so tempting you want to I get tempted by that, but but it doesn't yield what I'm ultimately trying to to achieve, which is. I should be, he's trying to make this human I've committed to be with feel as safe and taken care of as possible at the expense, quite often of reality, not necessarily expensive reality, because it's not that your a agreeing that her representation is true- you could just move on. I just exactly I fast forward to hunting I do now so happy to help more yeah. I I sometimes I don't think about it. So if you could meet me halfway and just remind me, I'd be I'd. Love to help you get out the door like literally, do that and then help me meet those needs right, yeah that that that falls for me,
under this or the picking the battles rubric where it's just it's not important at that moment to get the record straight. Yeah it's just just like. Well, what can I do? What can I do now is to to- and I would argue very emotional truth is as important as the the the the historical record yeah. Yeah they archaeological record right. It is as important but and the dishonesty entailed there. They would be dishonest to say: oh you're, right you're right. you're right, I didn't do those things all the while I believe I did those things and you're delusional. right right it that introduces a kind of distance. I got now you're, now you're managing the person as though they are now an irrational actor or either not on the same team, and this is at the core. I think your frustration with mankind is that we are in irrational in the expectation that will be rational is actually antithetical to what we
our it actually it does. It doesn't exist. So none of it's logical, none of it's real. No, it is I'm not saying that that we're always is motivated by reason. I mean there are all kinds of things that are that we have, many drives that are not any kind ain't of reasoning and his heart the reason us out of them, but we can have a right. We can, rationally understand. What's going on an and navigate around all of them. So I mean where I'm trying to lead. You is that I do think this paradigm that exists. I think there are times that you could extend that out to some of the debates. Urine do feel like some of these seemingly these chasms that exist that we just can't cross. I do think some of it's going to be illogical and irrational, because about making other humans feel safe yeah. I don't think the bearded maniacs who are throwing battery acid in the face
young girls need to feel safe. I need, I think they need to feel terrified that their worldview is going to be cancelled because it will be because we have enough of a consensus that their barbarian right like so like if we need to like people who only respond to the stark as possible encounter of not an inch further right, and so the people who are threatening to you know, like you know that solution so so downstream. solution is, is- is treating the symptom and and not trying to figure out. Why on earth? Would someone be recruited in the first one that nobody is it, but that's actually not the symptom? It is that the actual is the ideas. Is the I like the idea about the the price we're paying for the certainty of Paradise right This is what this is. What's again, the back to where we started it's not that these are bad people, it's worse than that. These are most of these. People are good people
we're normal people like I don't well. I know. I don't think that the Americans that have been recruited over here in a flown to join ISIS. The this suggests that they may I say, are not a victim of some kind of emotional band eyes: kids, not knowing hard to blow okay, okay, but then, then, then you gotta, you gotta work harder, because because people do extreme, praying say that area. Okay, I spent two years in silence. In my twenties, no, not not all the ones in like you know, if the three month increments to one month increments, but of all of the so I could have been doing right. I was silent retreat, yeah, L almost as radical as joining isis- and I though it don't know- but I like that- but for different id like I know When I look at someone like John Walker Lindh, you know the the the the so called american Taliban. He was the first American who we noticed. Okay, you know it right after nine eleven who's in the basement of his yeah yeah, he got it. He he got caught, ends and wounded he's now in prison, and I think it's completely unrepentant. I the
it. But he's just a fundamentalist, as he ever was, he's been in prison for whatever it is fourteen years or so. When I looked at him, and I've got his backstory story and he went to these countries. I think it started in Saudi Arabia. I forget how we got to Afghanistan but movies in Pakistan, but he learned arabic and he just got totally immersed hook line and sinker in the in this muslim religiosity that, based on just a sincere conviction that this was the true account of the world, but really quick. Do you think that that guy felt included in his group? Do you think he was on the football team and felt like he was quite had an identity that was shared with ring around him. Or do you think about his? I forget about his back story there, but imagine, it is vitally possible to be the quarterback of the football team and then to join ISIS really totally totally. I mean I was. I was a very social, very reasonably cell
actualized guy have lots of friends lots of intellectual interests. I dropped out of Stanford, and decided, there's something much deeper here that I have to pay attention to yeah. I don't really know, I don't regret any of it, but it could have been something that I would now regret. It could have been fundamentalist Islam Gira had. I believe you know that the Koran was the perfect document of where you and I diverges. I do think, there's there's probably, and you herbal reasons, but I think some people are susceptible to it or not. Well I mean so. There are obvious the human mind is very complicated and it's hard to find happiness in this world. Whatever your circumstances take it out, the context of jihadism or religious extremism mistakes just take The opioid crisis right was like it. You can be prince and have a problem with
and you can be somebody who's? Who has no prospects in life and have a problem with? I was very egalitarian yeah. Why yeah and and so, but so like a but you could. You could make the argument that, as life gets better and better, you know as as more people will have a life like you and I are I enjoying well, then the temptation to become an addict must go down right. Well, it must Maybe I maybe goes down a lot by half safe, but still it's possible to basically have everything and have I've run off the rails with with addiction yeah and it's good in, and we got to be clear what metrics were using to evaluate life? getting better right. So, but so you know your money and you could have got our money on that education, that physical health, you have people around you who will love. You are worried about you. You know I mean it's just, but you know you, you could be Anthony Bourdain who's got but from the outside. A great
live right, he's he's doing exactly what he wants to get a career that everyone, and these are like what what could be more fun than doing what he's doing yeah we have provided you like to travel and he hangs himself right and then you're left with this absolute refutation of the apparent good this of his life. He was, he was even the indeed ugetsu right who's, like a total jujitsu attic right, like that was a that was the cool thing to see lose an addict period. So, but a lot of those things answer themselves right, but he's like sixty years old, his gift is getting into the most fun sport ever. I had never met him, but you know what we have friends in common, and so I'm I'm looking at this from a fall, our thinking man. This is so cool. This guys here is, is the older than me he's got, but apparently you know way more energy, INC And- and you know great luck with with this health and then killed himself, and so it's that's a sign that there is considerable dis, stand still for a human mind to be profoundly unfulfilled,
then, when, basically, all the other boxes are checked. Yes, and if you had listened to this podcast a lot, that's, that is the theme. So I get to talk a lot of people who are rich and famous- and my first question- is generally you're, rich and Famous- did a cure all the things you thought it would care right and almost across the board. It didn't and it didn't do it for me. So then the question is what does make you feel good, it's counterintuitive the things so so imagine what it would be like for you and all all of your rich and famous and successful, and and get a good luck and looking guess who should be happy, yeah to be fully immersed in a culture that set that has an answer for all of that remaining existential crisis, yeah, so we have to win this war of ideas. This is that we cannot give an inch on this and it's not racist It's not racism, certainly to be holding the line here is actually
only rational, compassionate response to the the suffer in of millions of people who are who are living in context where their lives are threatened every day by the theocrats around them yeah I was like well, I can't be for almost an entire day, which is just when you think you made all of our. This is the way it is on a podcast yeah. Well I SAM? You really have made us happy by coming in you've. Been, are the object of our desire? as we started, and to do it all right, hello, who is this Jameson Jamison here there- and I want to say on behalf of Monica and I that were so grateful you a left handed mug and we would very much love to pass sign your generosity to uh found
or a charity that you believe in is there's some an issue that you care about, that we can help with. She was hoping you could donate to the open medicine foundation, open Medison Foundation, and what did they they do well. I have a chronic illness called and we see a sense and they do a lot of research for that they they raise funding because it's it's really up underfunded and what kind of symptoms do you have with your condition? Oh speak. English is difficult, as you can probably tell yeah, and I I I'm doing better now- couldn't eat soul, food for a year and a half now yeah
is, is free and can uh. You know it's. Some people are worse worse than I am there. You know they have to be unlike feeding tubes and they they can't speak at all. You know, small stuff is taxing only I need a lot of help in so. Do you listen to a lot of podcasts? I don't know how it is yeah, he uses his dead. I really wonderful distraction for me. Just gives me a little bit of a scaping, and I you know I don't I just don't sleep well at all so yeah. I notice that you guys usually post it at like two in the morning, so I'm usually awake right. You James, is our very first now
The last question I want to ask you before we go. Your name is Jamison. Is your other, an alcoholic, the love, whiskey, yeah, it's it's interesting. It's spelled different, okay. Well, it's not so they are missing in the server, but my it might. Actually he he was not at all if used in silver, for I think, like thirty years or something oh wow, we have that in common yeah. It is ok if I, if I talk about the of medicine, please, please do yeah they. You know they work to come to. You know, raise raise money for funding and they work with Stamford, Alot and Uc San Diego, like I'm, so that they're trying to get more research for for Lyme Disease and in me, cfs, which is the main the main one that I was I was talking about
and and other site run my own soon and stuff like that, and are these all in it? Are these all auto immune diseases in a way you know any css is, is pretty mysterious. He is the studies have shown. Is you know it? It affects energy level, so something is attacking the mitochondria there's some information marks yeah or someone with arthritis. I find information really sexy, as you know, so I just always wanted to know if I've got like a fellow sexy brother out there with inflammation yeah yeah exactly and it effects like twenty years. Twenty four million people around the world. So it's it's, it's obviously very, very personal for me. So I'd really like to raise awareness thing,
people can can donate uhm. Oh actually, you know imagine if they donate before the 27th donations are tripled so. Oh there's someone matching donations, yeah anonymous donor. So all that's! You guys donate donate that two thousand from call fantastic. We will do that before November 27th for November two thousand and seventeen okay great. You can go to that Ms Diet, NGO M, F, DOT! Wonderful! well all Jamison. Thank you so much for your very, very generous country. mission, and we will definitely pass that money on and hopefully that will then raise
six thousand dollars an hour urge everyone to go to Omf DOT, n, go and donate, and thanks for open my eyes to me, see if you want to read more about it uh I have a essay in the New York Times kind of Shittim ok great and then what's the name of that article in the New York Times, it's it's for the modern love column. It's called love means never having to say any Well, wonderful on James. Thank you. So much, and thanks for listening to the show, will try to distract you for years to come right, okay and now my favorite part of the show. The fact check with my soulmate Monica Padman men ex, if you want to you, can leave your friends behind. But if your friends aren't facts, and if they don't check the notes friends of mine
great thank you I like that. Well, I only had the title yeah, so you had to do some improv, some quick thinking on my feet. So doesn't really make sense or add up, don't think about it too much just enjoy the melody and Ruthie Palmer suggested it on twitter Ruthie thanks Ruthie sandwich between I take screen grabs of the tweets, so I can like bring them up and she sandwich between all these pictures from cars. I like what is it exactly? Well, it's a two thousand twelve Ferrari. F Alf, it's called an f have and I'm not a big for our God, but they made a station wagon. You know how much I love station wagons means really shooting break for every Automotive Lee, but it's just so silly. Looking in you know you have do you station wagons. I know I know any more. You know before I die
I hope to have at least ten station wagons, then that stupid seven. I want for every day of the week. Okay, but did you also have other car? but aren't station wagon that you also drive but some days like a some weeks have eight days like a leap year. You know F, that is you think it stands for big blue the Ferrari really big for grass, the that would be a bra size, yeah and a large large one. I think it stands for Ferrari, funk fest, because, presumably you can fold these seats down 'cause. It's got a hatchback like a station wagon, and why so they make it. If not for quite, is in the back a tally. Ins are very spicy people, they are they embrace sexual activity. Feisty. That's what I want to say or our work.
Right, I mean Rob, would've bonechill rob. I know what it really stands about. You know, oh dear Rob tried to present a fact about are I there's a lot of topics that you could educate But let me tell you right now, Ferraris now, not one of them Bobby Wobbe, you guys so sorry arm cherries, oh, I was and I say, is I found a car that I want really I've been wanting this to happen. I saw and comedians in cars getting coffee yeah. What was it? I don't know You'd remember all I do remember. It was a Mercedes three hundred Goldwing, like yeah going door yeah. I want to say it's like either five thousand eight hundred and fifty nine somewhere in there, so very old Mercedes. very, very rare, Mercedes Sexy doors that open up goal. wing like a seagull, very sexy, all white. Why, actually, I would say cream like it
my current car, is white, this was not that this was a beautiful egg. You know my favorite white is As you know, on mine, dune buggy is Wimbledon I made popular on the Ford Broncos of the seven so I like a creamy Hawaiian ICE Cream based white right, yeah yeah. That car is gorgeous. I want one I'll buy it. You yeah, podcast goes ten years I'll, buy you one that great, like people get what I watch on the tenth anniversary of their job yeah, I'm going to buy you a million and a half dollar Merced. When you be nervous driving that damn thing you can be in that, could I even drive it what about putting in your living room just so Oh that's my record as accoutrement. I that's my fantasy. Is that Bell would let me park our car?
inside the house I'd way rather stare at those. Then I like a piece of an oil painting. You know yeah Russian is, but if someone in the audience has of a ferrari f- and they want to sell it to me for zero dollars and sixty cents on the dollar, let's talk: ok, great, ok, so, SAM, SAM Harris. yeah as Austin Faction Dizzy, I mean So tell our listeners like we can, we could talk. Seven hours on in this fact check about stuff that was said
and I'm not going to do gonna do that. I picked a few things that we can talk about, that. I thought maybe needed saying after listening there's a lot of maybe could be considered controversial opinions and I'm not going to pick apart every single one, okay, so, okay! Well, first, you said it four out of five gas of ours. We site SAM, an exaggeration, I didn't look yeah, that's an exaggerating, is probably an exaggeration at the being. getting? Yes, I think we've tapered off a little bit. 'cause we've also beat listeners, have heard about all these people. But what's interesting is even when I'm I'm not actually saying SAM, but I'm talking about something Paul Bloom wrote about empathy or I'm talking about something. Brett winds, Dean said or I'm talking about you. When you fall Harari, they came from his podcast yeah
so, even if I don't say SAM, I just called you you have you heard this Paul Bloom thing, yeah, really, I'm talking you know. I got that from SAM that strong cast. That is true. Okay, so he mentions honor killings and he said it. I don't actually know what he said. The percentage was, or maybe just a high percentage of islam- believes that we that honor killings are okay and The Washington post in Pew in two thousand thirteen did a survey and in fourteen of the twenty three countries, where the question was asked at least half say: honor killings are never just
right when a woman stands accused. Similarly, at least half in fifteen of twenty three countries say: honor killings of accused men are never justified, and only two countries- Afghanistan, Iraq, do majorities, say honor killings of women are often or some, hence testified, but you know it's interesting. Is it almost declares your purpose? Asian on this topic, even the way that was just said, which is to say they found that half of people don't believe in honor killings. You could also then say: half of people believe honor killings, which is very good rest of it, though that's what it's saying into it. It's pointing out the country in which the majority does, but even even if half of population believes that that's very troubling other country yeah. It is. These are also like my take away from this. When I looked at the whole list with yeah
the countries. The more modern countries have of have a small number that really troubled war. In countries have a high number that to me was clear and looking at that list, that was my takeaway. I mean it's scary and bad Is here being credibly, I guess the. I think this is what gets frustrating or me in these conversations and probably for other people is, and I think it's largely what SAM gets, straight with, is you you have to acknowledge this, large amount of people that have these views, like that's, just a statistical act now. The more important thing that no one ever gets to it's like the left, wants to deny the left big messages with as majority of Muslims
our peaceful and wonderful and that's true absolutely, but then you read stuff like this and you have to acknowledge a but pretty good. Hefty amount of people do believe in honor killings. That's troubling! That's uh, That's a big concern now, the way more important conversation is hard to even get past. That is why and that's you're saying well, these are very impoverished war ridden countries. In the real debate should be about. Why and how? How on earth do we change this right? That's yeah, but I I think. Sometimes the conversation can't even get to that point, because the left wants to kind of ignore all that stuff, and I think he gets bogged down in the denial that there's a significant amount of people on the planet that believe in jihad. Yeah I mean I I I don't
in my experience and opinion, I don't know any person on the left who doesn't believe in jihad and doesn't believe in ISIS and terrorism, but I think they are more or able to see the reasoning as to why there's extremism yeah the causality- and I think people who are just fully he operating through fear, don't think about that. They don't think about the real reason it's happening. They think or whatever, and let my opinion is the real reason it's happening, which is money and maternity and all of those things. But the rhetoric that gets imposed is these. People are terrible people that are going to hello, your city up man and people
leave it and yeah. That's certainly the the the yeah. That's the big issue on the right, I mean yeah, I mean we said in his interview, which is you know my position is the left is wrong about is Guam and the right is wrong about Muslims. I think the many people on the right think that Muslims are are bad and they're, the boogeyman and I don't believe that, but I also think the is wrong in that it is not notion of jihad, is very dangerous in the ideas are very dangerous: yeah yeah yeah, but just like there are ideas in the Bible that are equally dangerous, no one would deny that and and if, if we were doing this podcast during the Crusades yeah, you said that in the
yeah I would, I would have a bullhorn, but I'm saying but the the difference is Christianity is in the modern world. It's infiltrated into places that are that have money and our modernized, the places- Islam is is most extreme, is not that so with weird steps in jail, but yeah Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia in the Hobyahs they're living in one of the richest countries in the world, and yet it's that, while the real rate since countries for the rich people not for the country, I don't know the per capita. You add up the look. I I it's yeah. I feel certain about that, but it's weirdly the rich It's the Bin Bin Laden was from a super rich construction family. That's
concert, but it's also. That's also part of the problem is there's a regime where this is rated when working, and it also creates more power which they want. So it it's all part of that system, and that is a that's a problem I think more so than the book, because all the books to me are the similar sure. Okay, so we talk about my boyfriend. Which one then Ben Affleck yeah yeah. We talk about my boyfriend and I feel the Okay, I didn't really stand up for him as much as I should have. Okay, I have some girlfriend Sure sure I mean I do a little bit, but but I should have done more. Did you re watch? It I haven't. No, I didn't I've watched it many times, though. Okay,
I was recently on the bill, Maher 30th anniversary, special yeah. I think he is worried about the way what SAM says can be taken, the words he says can be weaponized and the only The solution is not to further alienate people, and this could lead to that. These comfort that conversation, that same thing, I mean I don't disagree with him. I think he's right about out of things, but you have to be really tactical about how you put sent it. They could have really terrible ramifications yeah. So there was this: there's a great frontline about White NASH us in the rise of their kind of you know. Public displays in parks
these rallies they have and how violent they are in the sky kind of tries to track these people that are kind operating anonymously, and it's to my complete shock and awe he tracks. One guy is got us security clearance at a weapons manufacturer an isn't the doctorate program at UCLA now like when I went to UCLA the last thing I imagine that was that one of my peers there was a white nationalist. I just kind of blew my mind. You think. Oh, you wouldn't even be interested in going to whatever yeah but while I was watching it occurred to me that to go if you have those guys ears of the white nationalist Nationalists to go in in to really think that the issue is, uh nazism and Anti Semitism is the issue and that, if you just go, do explain to them how flawed their thinking is that I'll be the way out of this, or this will somehow prevented if we can prove that
Nazism is flawed logic and flawed thinking. that will eradicate the problem, but it's so obvious to me that that isn't the approach that would work with white nationalist I mean you have to first go. Why are these guys even drawn to this thing? Absolutely, and then you have to acknowledge. Oh, a lot of white men who have a huge. Sense of entitlement feel very disenfranchised by this system. That's supposed to include them and they feel excluded. So then they're looking for a scapegoat when you just really start walking through how on earth someone finds them else in that organization, you start recognizing that proving to them. Hitler was on a shaky scientific foundation when Dead areas were superior is probably
I can yield results well, yeah, or is it even start to explain how the problem started? Yeah I mean I I I I think that I think people who are which SAM argues in this, but I definitely think that the people who are recruited into these extreme, philosophies are dealing with a host of issues more than just their dead normal and they love that book. Yeah which is what SAM believes he thinks you can be a total psychologically normal, and maybe you could be psychologically normal, but you you are susceptible to feeling a part of something you need to be a part of something I think you could pass every psyche val and still have this insane sense of entitlement that you're supposed to be special and you just kind of find the cause that will allow you to quickly
yeah, I'm that ladder an be special powerful, they give they give you power and if you are living a life where you feel powerless, yeah yeah, it's be attractive. I don't see a difference between any culty group and that, I think most I mean some do worse stuff than others, but the recruitment to me feels dissimilar. It feels like, when I walk the Scientology. I've already center an there is. Are you sad question mark? We can help you I'm like I get it. I get. Why people are going in there? They are desperate to get what they want and that's all of these things again again the degree to which They brain wash, you is different, but in the outcomes different, the outcome can be
Rent yeah, he said Ninety eight percent of girls in Somalia are still getting Clitorectomy's and he's very close. It's ninety five percent between the ages of four hundred and eleven according to UNICEF we're watching. All this will be on in a warn. You is spoiler alert if you haven't watched Handmaid's tale plug your ears, but someone gets a clitorectomy in that yeah. It's really. It's really really no human being- should be getting a clitorectomy now they should not in that same comma patient SAM was saying like don't call it female circumcision, because some people will equate it to male circumcision, which is a completely different thing. And you said yeah, because the the goal of males decision when it was enacted was cleanliness, which is not true? I mean that's. Definitely now, white people do but uhm.
Started the oldest, mentoring. Evidence of male circumcision comes from ancient Egypt. Circumcision was common, although not universal, among ancient semitic peoples in the aftermath of the conquest of Alexander the great, however, Greek, disliked circumcision, they were guarded. A man is true, only truly naked if he was not circumcised. The next resurgence was with Judaism and the coming of age ritual, so I think it was mainly about like being a man even in these, like ancient yeah, I was at my reference seen jewish circumcision, which was part of the overall covenant in all. If you look at all those things, those traditional keeping. kosher shellfish. Why don't these selfish? Well, then back then, you know. Five thousand years ago shellfish was very dangerous to
zoom and so every one of the things to stay, kosher and circumcision, work, health practice, declarations the I'm sure, that's an aspect to it, but I think it's also about boyhood manhood. It's like presents a lot of those things. You know there wouldn't be a breast there will be a ceremony if it was only about cleanliness. I mean it's definitely basically what it is now. Well, let's start as we can agree that it's never been about denying mails pleasure. Definitely an female Genital mutilation is one hundred percent about the nine women pleasure yeah. Well people are choosing to not circumcise these days because of there's no in point, there's no to yeah. We do yeah and it would be hard for me. If I had a boy making that decision 'cause. I know it's completely stupid. I know and yet I'd have this fear.
Be the only kid in his gym class yeah. Now that wasn't circumcised any be humiliated. I now yeah that's rough, but I I I I did read something that, like fifty percent of people in California, are not circumsized. Now fifty percent of this employees, Larry hi, I was shocked with how high it is now so maybe Boleh yeah, maybe that's good, maybe eventually it won't be a thing where a kid will go into gym class and feel in two thousand one hundred ad. With the mean temperature on planet earth, one hundred and fifteen, all boys will have their foreskin yeah It will be a health issue again room so sweaty to go back to it just circling back. He said John Walker Lindh's been in is in for fourteen years he was brought to trial in February of two thousand to two: do you quick math,
how long ago, two thousand and two one sixteen years ago in years and he was sentenced to twenty years in prison. So he's almost done. What do you do? He was the American who oh right, yeah. It was living in the basement, yeah, were you able to find out if he actually has a thought won his head? Do we know that about SAM? He must what font Wah when they Claire that you're an enemy of Islam actually reward to kill him. I don't know, I don't know they put one on Salman Rushdie. yeah writing that book I feel like SAM for sure, but I think they all do they. Oh yeah 'cause, you said Larry David had a lot of well it's an episode where he get the very funny. sort of curve yeah, he writes some play Yeah somehow ends up. He gets a flat wall, but isn't normally, which is why that's a funny joke. It's like it's for Muslims,
Are you sure, I'm pretty sure pretty sure oh, I don't think that they are not allowed to buy the Koran standards. But if you Even Sharia law that you can't like did now or do anything, but that's a Sharia law thing, so I don't think it could be. I don't think it could be placed on like Christians me. Maybe yeah, but I eight I don't. I don't know what I do want to make the point, because we I have a lot of discussions menu about like the current climate of men and women in this. Kind in males feeling isolated
that women are making sweet or people are making some sort of sweeping judgments on masculinity and males in general, and I would equate that to this to this Islam conversation that that, if you feel like Well, it's detrimental to say that all men do this men. Do this the same with Islam that, if we're but but again, no, what you and I always argue about- is it precisely that is You say Manor and in general, this conversation is men and boys need to be talked to him. Then, why there's no specificity, I'm saying is- I am very clear about who I'm critical of I am. I am critical of people that think they need to form a caliphate that believe in
Uh thought was that believe in jihad. Yeah and that's not the majority of Islam or morass so I'm being very careful to pinpoint the people, I think, are the problem. Ok- and I don't- I don't- observe that specificity- but my overall point and when you and I argue about this all the time off their my overall point- is this: if you want two have white privilege is a huge point of your platform of your political party. And destroying white privilege. An men are any issue an whether or not that's the point making it may sound like that to people I with everything you're saying what I am very full of is sixty. One percent of the country is white. So if your platform is we
and white privilege you're, not getting elected. That's my point and like why, If, if it's a war on men were half the population you're not getting elected, I don't think that these things have been nearly phrase correctly and I think it runs a huge risk of never winning an election. That's what I think. Ok! Well, I'm just making the comparison. What you saying about not getting elected because of hitting these points and not saying them correctly? It's because you, you feel that when people say it that way that it's isolating it's the same thing. When you talk about Islam and Muslims, you have to say it correct Lee or you're, going to isolate a huge group of people and by the way I solution is part of why these people get recruited in the first place. So if I think it's just like a terrible cycle,
agree, but you've? Never in my life heard me say that I'm critical of Muslims I've never said that. I am crazy, critical of Islam, crazy, critical of the Bible of the Koran of the old testament yeah, the Torah. I think that I think all of its dangerous. Yes, the solution to this issue is not to tell Muslims to stop believing in his heart. It's not happening. No, I totally agree with you. The solution that even SAM is very vocal about in so is for, read, is um Muslims, leading the charge the charge into a more moderate version. Yeah! Oh one more thing: he talks about Mark Duplass, do
why do we did something about Ben Shapiro, yeah and then people got upset SAM said, of course he doesn't agree with everything. People should know that. I I don't. I don't think it's fair to say. People should know that when, when Mark tweets, um, hey, there's this there's a person that has challenging ideas, look into him, which I think means probably that mark probably did not see those original to which I doubt he would have even said that or maybe would've, but he apologized, Ann I think it's totally fine that he apologized. Oh, I don't I'm with SAM on this this now, in that you know. If someone does one good thing and then make one good statement, you want to point that out and then you now what what you? What you've done is somehow approved of everything.
person ever said in what world is that? That's her posture but he's not, he didn't say this tweet is interesting. He said this purse the end. Yes, it is worth looking into. It is an honor and this and that so what people do to his fans, who, like him listen to him and said, okay, I'm going to look into it and then they did, and I think they probably do a little deeper than maybe even marked it. And then they were like this. a person is nuts and he totally disagree with you. I think people who already hated Ben Shapiro's guts and we're aware of tweets of his from four years ago couldn't wait to seize on I don't think anyone who Mark said that too, who went to bench bears current feed It's got four years down the road between the ones that therapist about
and Ben Shapiro we making fun of Christian Post this. This whole interview, Ben Shapiro, took aim at Kristen for having issues with. uh the prince in sleeping beauty, kissing a dead stranger and he. A lot of his followers were right on board. Now people sent that to me like shooting you defend her am I now, This guy has a different opinion, which is totally fuqing fine. I understand what he what he thinks clearly is that we are somehow saying we should burn all Disney books. Yeah is preposterous, not we. She said we in this light is, and we read the book to our girls all the time we love sleeping beauty, yeah we're not anti sleeping beauty. We are saying,
we pointing out that when you're reading it to your girls, you might want to mention hey it's kind of weird to kiss a dead person. You've never met yeah. This is this store He has some some arcane things to it and we can discuss that and that was her whole point yeah and then I see Ben Shapiro's fear that we're just trying to you know data dump everything in our history that doesn't match up perfectly with our current morals. I understand his point he didn't color bitter con or any of these things that would require defending him. In a different opinion than my wife is totally fine, doesn't require defending and people's but is it? Is it a different opinion or is what did he wasn't mean to her at all? He would say, but he called her out by name yeah. He it's. The thing she said was stupid, which is fine. He would never called her name or was you know
violating the rules of discourse. He thinks what she said was stupid and that's totally fine. Well, it's also sure He can think whatever he wants to think. But it's also not fine, because he clearly didn't read the article and then he taking out a headline and then making a grand judgment on a person publicly. I don't think that's fine and I I do I do thank I don't think so. I don't think she needs, depending on any, I think, she's perfectly capable of defending herself. She John Stuart or needs to, but I think that, let me ask you, though, what's not fine about it? What should he not be allowed to do it like? What's the totally, not okay to take headline not get any new ones or any context or anything and then put someone on blast publicly.
Based on your zero knowledge. I think that makes you throw if that's what have, and if you didn't read the article I don't know if he did or he didn't well, he couldn't have because that's not what she said. That's not what she set it all like yeah. The bottom line is, he was not rude and he was not name calling and he has a an opinion and even I read the whole thing you might have a different opinion, uh yeah and I think people try to give me shit for liking. Sam Harris. That's, crazy. He might say ten things and I might disagree with seven of am, and I might love three of the things and that's totally good. You should not be taking in information from people based solely If you agree with everything, I say that I is stupid, it's so fucking stupid if you can
they receive information from people that you agree with across the board and everything they've ever said, get fucking real and that's what those people who are trying to takedown deplace were saying this because he enjoyed. Some of the points of view of ban that he should stand by everything. Benz ever said in those people need to find a different planet where they only hear things they like hearing, I think if you are going this year, a public person- and you want to give someone Else- a platform you do owe it to people to have done your due diligence, now, maybe he did and maybe didn't care. That's totally fine, but you can't be surprised if you put somebody up whose controversial and then expect people to just say ok. I think we're glossing over the much bigger, more important profound.
fundamental issue that people increasingly think that they need to agree with everything. Someone says I think the takeaway of the Mark Duplass, situation. I also think of me is that, okay to apologize, I think it's okay, I don't think it's weak or anything I it? I think apologizing when you feel bad is required in wonderful and vulnerable in a cornerstone to being a good person and growing placating people I think it's a waste of time and it's a lion. It's dishonest. So if mark really felt bad about doing that, then I'm glad college eyes yeah. I doubt Mark really felt bad saying. Ben Shapiro often has some great conflicting opinions to the left. I doubt he really feels bad, that he said that, but but maybe
he does. I don't know yeah. This is a hot button Abbas, so well getting to end that yeah well, when you SAM on when you invite gasoline and matches into the attic going to happen, that's right? I do want to say sometimes when you- and I are you on here- people they get sad. They tweet me that they hate when mom and dad fight Monica and I always either walk home. From here or drive home from here and we've never gotten back to the house upset at each other, yeah, maybe one time. So I have one more fact. That's a fact. okay, you said that we allocate thirty three cents on every dollar to the military, bigger than the next eleven militaries combined. I think it's currently twenty four cents of every tax dollars. The Pentagon and military just and clarify I'm not getting ready to fax what
it's often not in that number. Is they don't include homeland security and it doesn't sound like him at number. They did but yeah, with whatever, if you include homeland security and stuff but go ahead um and it's the biggest after the next seven countries, not eleven and bigger, meaning we spend more the next seven countries combined correct, combined yeah. We spend six hundred and ten billion dollars, ok, great, so yeah. That makes sense for that number. Yeah 'cause. I think it's one point two trillion with homeland security and maybe NSA instant, already little bonkers. Let's it alright! I love you. I love you. We got through SAM. We were a little nervous yeah, don't you think yeah, I'm still nervous. Still there yeah yeah because we aim to be less divisive
Yeah and but what I feel is this who is SAM, I mean this. We have people on to talk about them and talk about what makes them taking. What is work. This is them in their work and their interests, and that's what? teams interested in and he's doing great. You know he is expanding minds and it's great- and this is a part of him. So of course it's going to be on the show. Yeah in minimally, even if you, What he says you think it's stupid can do a compelling conversation yeah that could bear fruit. It is good to listen to people who challenge your normal thinking, even if it just means that you can build a good argument against it sure yeah. You don't build a straw. Man argument yeah, alright! Well I love you. I love you too. I love you way more than any election. That's coming way. More than my wife privilege,
way more than my male privilege or my toxic masculinity yeah. I love you more than the fact that I want a ferrari. Ff is toxic masculinity. No now I don't. I don't Whatever you want all. I love you.