Samin Nosrat is an American chef and food writer. She is a regular food columnist for the New York Times magazine and has a docuseries on Netflix called Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat. Samin visits the attic to discuss how community is tied to food, her first experience at Chez Panisse where she eventually worked and her realization that mistakes lead to growth. Dax describes some of his favorite at home recipes and Samin talks about how she cried in every episode of her documentary series. The two talk about food systems, the importance of asking for help and Samin wishes Americans had more words for “restaurant”.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome welcome welcome armchair expert aimed at chaperone joined by only nominated Miniature Maximus mouse boy. Do we have someone? We I've been real. Why are one of those moments where you? U pinch yourself, you deal a pinch, yeah pinching, Pooh sue me not rob. She has the most may using documentary on Netflix that we talk about off. Then it's called salt fatty acid HEAT reason Monica set, as I always changed, the order, let them now. What did it say it one more time sought fatty acid heat, but the documentary serious Bore episodes come heart, mental eyes, salt, fat acid, he eatable, but we shall have this first episode. Is fat not solve? Yes, maybe that's why you flip it? Oh that's a good year I come and give myself that same excuse when I was trying to memorize it any who boy did she delivered,
relax, guys, she's the cutest human being met on planet earth as seasonal, joyful, beautiful energy we just louder. We really want to hang out with her cook. Yeah I want she's tremendous she's written an incredibly popular cookbook guy with the same title. She is accomplished in many ways that you'll hear about in a really encourage people to wash the document. I dont, like food cooking, chose amusing until you're right now. I don't care about them whatsoever tried. While I ask if this five minutes watched three hours straight yet incredible right,
so enjoys a mean. Also. We have new merchandise on our website which had a photo shoot. It was very awkward, but we had we found a way to have fun with it and we might add, so we have a lot of fun new shirts that Wabi, while put together he creative in towns had I'm so grateful for you are we want good jobs? Some your favorite expressions like brick, Shit House have made it onto a teacher training and you can go to arm chair expert pod dot com in order those in while you're there. If you wanna come see us live in the MID west this summer you can get tickets for Cleveland, Detroit or Chicago. There are still some seats left and please enjoys a mean. We are supported by a show tee w. I r e hotwire dot com, or are you guys perfect? Thank you so much. I copied Rob rubbed it again to remind me of the jungle. Could at such a good. One.
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dot com, all bookings or final easy. For me, we were not gonna start recording, but our gonna, because you brought with you this beautiful little jar of of Epp apricots jam that you may and then he started telling me about, and I thought years already on fire I wanna know: ok, so because you're looking autonomy, the simple steps- and I think, will first first that you were gone into the only farmers, a world that is maybe a psychopath, but in a great way his name, Andy Marianna, any always cells. These apricots first one grateful you say: Apricots Boca, some people say April apricot to me that triggers like eggs Bobby thing. I don't know what I'm basing that our maybe people think apricots
a baby to me, like apricot, sounds a little snob. I think we should invent a new thing with what may be weaker Edison play com instead of you say, tomato, oh right, right, right, right, right, absolutely bomber back, I'm! Ok! So you would you say a couple of things you are saying is that is that in Africa, when you have them and they have a little colored to them, be it pink or read, and you were saying I don't act like I knew cause. I now know it's amazing causeth, that's like a blush on the cheek of an opera caught, you know, and so it is really like blush. It's where sun shone through the trees leaves and landed on the skin of the Africa. Unlike its like a suntan of fruit, which is so beautiful, like I never understood that you know I've heard a lot of GM in my life. Sorry me sophronia people, but I'm kind of fingers feeding, myself some of this regime and there's so much happening. I was expecting you just like some sweet in my mouth, but there's some depth to this. I don't have the right to food and other that you can't reveal normal until August.
I grew generally mean we're not going to find out what is like. It's just not obvious you're like the magician, who immediately shows no sign of life. No, I, like you, I think we should go up more times here. In fact, let's go all the way here are totally that's two hundred. Ok, so was the secret ingredient. It's called neo, so apricots and almonds and p. Does a nectarines and plums they're all in the same family like this in banana cool family called droops, encourages such a good name, and you said that, The lay person name is stone. Morrison known for its. You, don't like anything that has a pit in rank bananas but how do I was wrong? Dynamic, cracked and if you taken apricots pit and you crack open with a hammer, there's a little not inside that looks like an away and all others in theirs in even further, not within it, because I think of that
it has been and not. But it's now because if you have ever seen omens on the tree or omens in the shell, almost like an opera caught, you know the outer shops, if you crack it open with a hammer, there's a tiny little, a kind of like a shrivelled almond. Look: ok you're not really was to eat them rock, as they have a tiny bit of cyanide sure sure. But if you toss them a little bit, aha, it has the most heavenly taste of almonds and logic and babies. Hair yeah, like used to be honest, is to me, like you, ve, grown up just a bit of like a Jack Daniels Cask like that, it's gotta. Woody like there's some happening over and southern at a steep those inner cheese cloth in jam. Outrageous like fills it How are we getting rid of the sign, just the heat that he kills it? It's a very fragile noise and boom. I need to remember that when I boys, my wife, just feeder Raw Africa colonels. Ok, great
This should not be hard. Do I show you anything that ever better they? So nobody really want see that I couldn't mascot I can t enough something more probable impact that you could try advise me on how to do there. Ok, now, on an average day, how many hours a day are dedicated to either procuring or preparing are doing something cooking related. I haven't had an average in a few years now right. That makes less afore that all day would be thinking about what I'm gonna do. Dreaming and planning and going shopping for a year, and I mean going shopping- is one of my favorite parts of it. Now I have a theory and probably bump some people the wrong way to go floated by you, anyways, so for most of the time on planet earth, humans were putting together societies and in the gloom I'm in gathered, we notice that the mist no more is, of course, like we historically thought, like old man goes out, and but then we have archaeological evidence that was about four percent of what people,
reading totally insignificant women were feeding everyone. Yes, but I do think that evolution, airily women like to my wife, she gets in their work star and she is on fire. It's like she just did a line of cocaine. I give them immediately exhausted, unlike too many options are too many colors tuning words to tomb dooming isles. Everything is allow me to me: it's not a fun activity for me, but she is just something kicks in something like biological kicks and when she enters a grocery store, maximum masters entered every nominated maximum. I say let me just give you do really quick manager. Oh you're, wearing your sweater, my god. I just want you to know, because I want you to be the file them in the right category when I entered they were both pain at the same time in the back thing giggling, and there was water, as I was waiting to hear like us last, why I mean rooms and experience? I learned about the long term
in your world. They call it an exhibition style kitchen where you prepare our living. I just think of it like why this should be our sea really, if that is what the right adjective in front of it works, but something which is then, I said, if you retired tomorrow, what percentage of your day would be occupied with either procuring the food preparing the food in she said probably the whole day virtual and real. Also, a bit part of what I like to do is make the guest list all yet, because that your kind of overarching theme which will get into right is that you see eating cooking. This whole thing is really just a conduit to community yeah totally and that's interesting. You do have theories on when that dissolved the on a good day I'll, be like it never dissolved ride and
I think there are a lot of forces in our lives and I haven't done a ton of like historical research on right, like I can only speak from my gut rather than from fact sure, but I will do you think you'd elected quite easily, but I well even just say. Like I mean I started cooking almost twenty years ago, and even just what happened in our work. not in twenty years yeah. You know when I first started working. There is barely an internet radio amount of time that that takes and mount of brain space that that takes. I mean it's so wonderful in so many ways it brings us closer together, yeah, but So, in a lot of ways I feel like it puts sort of these like almost clear plastic barriers between us. You know actually, may we not even almost like the screams, aha right, so you feel closer you feel connected to somewhere. You like you know, what's up with them, but you're not actually with them right, and we too great doctrine here explaining like what actually happens to your physiology by being close to each other, like I can't,
but wait and yeah you get release just from looking in each other's eyes. You get dopamine dumps. All these things happened that you think, intellectually are happening with this connection over the phone, but it's just not a lot Emily impossible here, it's not too, but I think we could easily guess, though, that as both sexes started working. Obviously there is less time to be out preparing. You know, gathering the food preparing the food now that I have to imagine that there is a clear correlation between the amount of process ease leader heat up food explosion has two parallel. There is a lot of homework like about women's lab, yeah yeah. How that affected sort of home, cooking and Michael Pollen, who is one of my mentors and as help he actually wrote like a lot about this in his book, cooked ok and he got a kind of one flak about it, towing area, because I think some people took it like he was blaming on sort of that
and followed home cooking share, and I don't I don't know it's a complicated thing because to me I'm, like everyone should work, it should have nothing to do with gender. I actually just reading. The other datum like asked. This person has sent me a bunch of research, but there has been some research done that says, on multiple socio economic levels in the last period of time I don't know ones in one or two decades. More men have started cooking for various reasons and even at the lowest levels were cause to me. If I thought the men cooking, unlike all the guys who, like Grana, barbecue or lay our doing or got really super in a monopoly Geller destroy me, I'm buying Willa gadgets. I'm really, that's probably, would not change our love. Any new cookie method he's a media. They obsessed with oil, you ve, I must have this NATO it, but what this person was telling me in the research which I have not myself read said that even at the lower socio economic levels, more men are cooking just because they have to charm
there. The interesting you know, and then I just live in a world where I'm always going down paths of like what will happen if and united Liberia and there's toilet. You know and not that's where all the food deliver services started and that's where, like the meal kit, inner milk, actually blue apron from New York, but a lot of that kind of stuff is being invented and disrupted the in the Bay area. So I see a lot of it and how people are choosing. There was a restaurant, it went on a business, but it was the innovation and I use quotation marks. Half was was that you would order your keen la bowl, but, like your entire experience of being in this restaurant was unless there was like a pad where you ordered it and then like a locker popped open and you bio, Wabble, aha and even and Adele.
this week. We do you think I mean I'm asking you to guess what their intentions were. But do you think they were they thought of this like that? There's something high tech about this site. I wish I were a little bit more like articulate and prepared for this gosh, and so my brother is in the Tec world. While we engineer ok, my brother, my little brother, whose name is borrowed or and when the three of us I wished. I have two brothers when we were a little, our mom was very fair, was always obsessed with fairness and not choosing favourite and not treating anyone differently serve like in the car. You know we always rotated whose data was in the front and the dinner time. Where is rotated? Who said what their favorite dish was? The man was going to be so like. I was always like make this. You know it's like a thing with nine thousand ingredients or make this complicated thing and border in persian food. The dishes are usually like, like Father, been races, bodily boiler or lentil rice is adaptable, so it's always like something polar rate, but like usual,
So whatever is mixed into the right. So border would always ask for, like Bali without body or like a plain, rising idea, how he is on account of genetic diet, loud bright at which he loves and has been really good for him, and he has a blood disorders been like really healthy for him, but I always look at him. I'm like that so joyless I could never do. I wish I could add polybius healthier, but so border. This is all too like set a stage for him. As a tech person like last week, he went on a vacation. Japan any sends me this text from Japan and he's like. Ok, I'm not a coffees. Not but like do you know
My coffee, because, like I'm seeing a system here that I can improve with tat, you have never had a cup of coffee in your life and you think you know that sort of like that tax thinking as like solve a problem. Yes re. Yet he knows nothing about coffee right. He knows nothing about like food distribution and he's just like so ready to solve a problem, but he doesn't know anything about this industry and I'm just like others like all these companies who are like merging with her, and I felt like funding and people in solving these problems for hundreds of years and decades and like youth, you have one cup coffee and Japan, and you say that, but he and I are gonna name- is learned problem where maybe there are totally so there was a little bit to me. I see that as a person like I've spent besides cooking, I ve spent a lot of time immersing myself in like understanding her food systems work and how who gets to table in this campaign. When you say systems you mean from it being grown or harvest agriculture, the disk
fusion aware how community gets or doesn't get a grocery store. You know those decisions are made by the grocery stores stuff, like that, I'm, like you, I'm a dweeb who like likes to immersed myself and stuff and just Kirsty and all the little minutiae right to say, I'm like some big expert on all this stuff, but I dont more than my brother and I know more than a lot at stake he began his mind as I can see. This is what this is. Why I would tell myself I would go. Oh it's actually an asset that I don't know anything about: because you can get so immersed in something you can be inside of the forest that somebody on the outside. It knows nothing about it, and it's got that on the services is seems a logic that this is how its working things can be like through tradition and all this passed down and everyone that was you know inside of it just can't even see it so unsapped level. I imagine he probably could do that. I want to be an angel investor into his coffee too,
but, like I totally get that, of course, we need people thinking in different ways and the way how everyone has been thinking since the beginning of time, because, like these problems, aren't getting solve right by also lets a mud. Moderating your ego to understanding do need to understand the basic things, especially the food system in this country is so complicated and getting food distributed grown. You know, cooked in people's MAO's in people's homes is so so so complicated say. I think that you can. You know, and I literally text my brother back like literally texting me from Japan about coffee right now in euro back. Yes, I was like let's talk about this when you get back by the time he was vacuous of,
something else that wasn't working perfectly on his way home and get another idea. Now when you say that it's complicated, I have to imagine, there's a lot of factors that make a complicated. I would have to imagine. At least one of them is it's a herculean feet to through feed three hundred million people like in the way our agriculture has evolved into like big agribusiness, and this in that in her, like even other farm here in California, is so different from where I grew up in Michigan how we
armed there, and there has also been you know, like the wheat revolution that took a big tech break through its actually feed two billion people. So I would imagine, that's one element of it and then have to imagine the business incentive is a big component of a government subsidies, government subsidies right the fact that everything we ve is made from corn virtually right because early slant. We because that's what we subsidize- and I think the logic behind a right is corn- keeps really well, it's completely insane right that they they double down corn, because I have often thought why don't they doubled on spanish ass much more healthy for us, they could figure. Always price infringements finishes not keep all that well, but you can dump corn and in a huge silo right and stay. I guess that's part of it. I think also like a lot of additive postwar. There are like we need to make sure we boast american economy all of this energy and stuff that was going into creating weapons. They basically those companies,
pivoted inserted, creating pesticides and herbicides right like it's, just such a complicated thing that traces bat. Sometimes, when I find out where something started, my mind is like what that's the reason you know, yeah that we're still doing less, but I do want to say before we even go down these roads, that you have a show of fat. Asses but he saw at feta, I saw you know, said he'd. I love you. So much mentioned storm armies. we have sought in fatty acid. He I just want to start by saying that I dont, like cooking, shows I'm not very interested Monica increase, and I started watching your show and without oldest or watch five minutes of the sitting
yeah, then we watch all three hours. We was the first three in a row and went home. They watch the last data like one in the morning tat I was so riveted with your show virtual. It's so elegantly shot. I've never been more hungry. In my entire life, I was honestly say two Monica like we're booking plane tickets. Right now for ITALY, I can't go another leads to run without tasting what she just showed us. Ok, so number one. It looks beautiful number two. It has some magic architecture to it. That's not like any cooking, I've ever seen. It's not like. You starts up so big lion like I'm, going to show you how to make real parmesan did I mean it's not like that? It's weird exploration of culture of food, just the passion that some people have ended.
You are so year year. Ninety five percent of the magic ingredient, because you're so lovely to watch, there's something so infectious about watching someone do the thing they loved the mouse, their arms. What's your? If you have not seen the show, it's so fond a watch, you cry several times and I cried in every black they didn't show about that. So special also mean will take a bite of something that we were both like as much as we want to know we're off like we wanted to feel that way. City terrific mile mean is she takes a bite of something initial starts crying in your like. It already looked amazing now that I'm seeing its brought her to tears listening must be transcendent. Maybe every fifteen minutes one of us is it
like her. I could not get over this feeling. We were getting shit you're, one of the most likeable people I ve ever seen on screen if you're so like about so we became obsessed with you became obsessed with your show. People have to watch, you show it's so so good. It's one of the best document or series I've ever seen. Images is so beautiful in freeway. Is such a wake up call to me, I'm like oh, no short, right on planet earth, let's like eat the greatest things that I can have in, let's be thoughtful about it in and not in any kind of lofty leaders way make a decision. Three times a day to eat, we must all do this in. You could have a crazy great experience. Any one of those three times are all three of those times and it just it's more than just eating a lifestyle.
A lifestyle. Yes, so that's who you are and then you have a really interesting story that kind of gets revealed pretty late in the end, the dogma, but we're gonna blow all that right here, but you haven't. You have interesting origin in that Europe. Here its came from. I ran to San Diego in nineteen semi, say yes, and can I just quickly yes, what it mom and dad do, and I ran before they. They are both english teachers at the AIR Force Academy in oh, ok, that's where they met. Then there is the resolute shall readily as that were so my dad's site. A family is a religion called the high ok and my mom's fixer families, muslim and other behind were facing religious persecution, or they knew that they would once the religious revolution occurred. Right so basically behaves like all flat. So my how high the family is displaying a huge, persian community here in my merrily houses of wooden leading go, they were largely behind no they're, a largely jewish, ok, religious persecution, and so I mean, and also there are,
but our audience we're just secular will. Even currently it's one of the higher rates of secularism year in them, ITALY, totally yeah. So it's it's! It's like an awkward thing, because it's a religious republic, my yes, a lot of people are really religion, and so now so my dad's either family left just fearing that persecution. There's also, I don't in my personal family story, there's a lot of lies and deception, compel kind like gaps, there's so much. I dont know that has never been told me right. So I can only sort of guests certain things, but what I've sort of pieced together is that people could tell for years that there was a cup. This was coming right. Home of the place was changing the so they all left well in advance. So there was not fleeing or that they will apply under parlor. Technically, I think my my dad and his so the family were technically sought religious asylum here right, but it wasn't the kind of like really really intense, like refugee, that you see sort of on the news today. It wasn't like that
right in so their skill of teaching English, probably highly valuable, and I ran what then do they do, and so I had an older sister when my parents came, she passed away when as a child. When I was one we do so so my mom was raising first, my sister, my sister in me and then later mere my brothers and my dad. He had always wanted to be a photographer and so by his darling, was a cool with that because it was or to dreamy and sure enough yeah I mean it's an area, they got immigrants stuff, you know Piazza my dad worked at genoa like I don't know if they still exist, but there is national university. You know it's kind of like a for profit. You know, like all my gut feeling like a phoenix year. He was the dean of foreign students like he helped foreign students get their paperwork dont cause. He had just gone through a radiant, just gotten visas and stuff,
yeah and you have lived in the oil, which is a really nice lived, not in the way. I went away a high, ok, but we lived in another suburb nearby, but things were good, they were comfortable and it was comfortable issue. It was interesting like when my mom, like did, although, like typical, amazing sort of like you know any moment totally do this, but my mom figured out the rules to get me to get into the lawyer. Schools cause there better Rank Georgia, and the only way I could get to go to them was to take Latin, which I'm really grateful for now. But at the time I was really pessimism Why are you grateful painkillers Geneva? Just like I get? They would meet it really easy for me to learn Tell him I mean MA. I understand like the base of so many languages, yeah yeah, I'm really glad now that I took it, but at the time was like all the goods to Spanish she sure, and so when my mom like got got for me like the ability to go to. This
school of the ride, your suburb. She like that me down. She was like. I just want you to know like you're, going to go to the school you're, going to see other kids and they're going to have stuff they're going to have cars they're going to have cellphones they're, going to have fancy clothes and never gonna, get that lets you like the owner and when you come and ask me for up, I'm gonna tell you know we'll talk. You have really aerial dies me alone again like clockwork
here. I would like mom, like all the kids, have swayed hush puppies like remember what I and so most of iranian at the school and in in like who were around me were of a different socio economic class in the railways, and I didn't really fit in with them in that way is so it was this weird thing where I wasn't sure where I Belarus, of course, major mouse. We ve explored her story allowed on here, and I was wondering how much you felt on the outside of, although till I have always felt on the outside, and I knew that that's like the defining thing of my little. I can really can become an acid out right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, then, and it ends up paying yeah totally and I feel to me I'm so does like acutely aware of what it feels like tonight. The long or do you feel like you, don't belong the. I feel like everything that I make now and do now. I dont want to make any one feel that way. Of course, things do, of course, there
is always that your people seem to see why but good food or organic food or sustainably harvest or anything new pesticide free it there it triggers in people this elite ism, which is a bummer, I'm I'm really upset. It's been branded emulate as its preposterous to think that anyone should be eating. You know more or less healthy food build on what socio economic brag old. So interesting. This I mean I'm no stranger to this, because our waters, who founded the restaurant, where I learned how to cook and in a lot of ways as my idea, illogical sort of like four Brunner gang
she's, always accusatory stories, shape and Estonia shape in Asia, and she says that it will score yard and like she is like twenty five, five thousand times a day accused of elite ism and its. I work in this office with all these meeting writers and one of my friends toilet Greenaway. She has this thing that she always talks about that. So smart, where she's like you know, the whole thing got turned upside down, because the labels that we put on food we say organic and regular right, miss it we're gonna regular. But if you think ten thousand years ago, five thousand years ago, two hundred years ago, organic was regular now not using rise. I'd not use until their became like money and business and like labels and all this kind of stuff yeah. Then somehow organic became the thing, that's free up, ease and for fancy. People I mean originally was for hippies like it was actually not fit. Fancy all Roma as business opportunities, sort of availed themselves. In this room it's been pushed higher and higher sort of up.
The socio economic scale or is perceived to be well. It is and what we can acknowledge that in general it is more expensive like at least when I go to my grocery store. The organic produces more expensive. It is not our Ghana, so that's a reality taught his unfortunate, but that's also because there's like an entire certification process that you have to go through it right like yes, just this business that's been built up around and am also really sympathetic to people who feel this way, because when I met Kristen Christian when regularly be going, you know this stuff in costs. Go in the aisles you shop in that's not food. What the fuck are you talking about when you're, so fancy, that's food? We talking about signal all those other isles where they need refrigerated, that's food, anything
that would sit in a box for fourteen years and take exactly the same as it would fourteen years before that, just the shape that has perfume like that's what you're eating it and I was like you're you're, fuckin too, I flute what did I not box migrant Jesus, Delicious and borrow money, and it is a labour force if you then have his feelings were than a box of crap macaroni she's, I like to add two packets personally, but at any rate you know I'm too where's into this about six years into being with her, I finally started accepting. Oh those isles are foolish. I mean in the way you'd want food to be
yeah, and I now it's. It happened to me like where I walked by less often went on. It, she'll be good for the next forty years. This that's not food, but again, I know was pushing an army. I was triggered by that whole thing, and now I get it it's so complicated and I think about that a lot because the thing about food and is its you know, apart from sacks, I guess, like the most personal and intimate thing in our lives, rain, he put in your body multiple times a day becomes part of us. You know our childhood. Our nostalgia our memories, but we were taught by our families, are good times are bad times. It's all wrapped up in that year, so trying to teach somebody using hogwarts here or trying to change somebody or telling them you rightly way is wrong or bad is so much more than like. You should be eating broccoli. No, you wretched triggers their identity, yeah yeah! Two! If you dare, we are so
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CALM, slashed Dax arm cherry, say fifty percent when they enter Dax. Still all my favorite or my mom visits, I just make her make one red meat dishevelled another ground. Beef. Juliet are not a good beef. They like. What can you tell me if you yet so she makes tremendous spaghetti. She makes incredible meatballs the meatballs. Are it's so lowbrow? It's like you make your bags. I make them as well. You ve got some money in theirs ammonium powder. You got some mom breadcrumbs. You make some balls, you throw it in the Big Electric, her eye pan and then you weren't Levin elector idly his shoe anything. Then you pop in one jar of the Heinz. Fifty seven chile saw her and then you pop in some raspberry Joe, oh yes and then a bunch of a wine, and you just let that shit
to throw light on three hours is settled all day in so sweet. At the same time, you you can't, even in their lot easier self, conscious, explain how the lily had its I'm telling you did. She invent the raspberry jelly addition from I dont know where she got that one, but we both use the same spaghetti recipe, which is we incorporate carrot and rosemary in that came from my grandmother her end in then we got our hands on that recipe and its it lives. In its original handwriting and the like a little book. I have I love that she also make oh here's one at all. I mean this could be more lowbrow. I'm I made this romantic another longer ground beef and a pan, a lot of ground beef, diced onion, a little garlic saw whatever. Then I can of candles. Cheddar g soup set up a new make. Then you make your bid quick pad in. You,
lay out your role at a big squeak pad, and then you cut little slats in it. Then you shovel all that half of the meat in this castor up to then you put the hum big big haunts a sharpshooter cheese on top, then you criss Cross. All the big quick in yeah yeah yeah nodded up, and then you pop that. Never now you still have half of your concoction in the in the frying. Pan, you add, another cannot camels cheese soup that becomes. The gravy were not done. Your holiday, you dont graveyard, but then you need ice cold applesauce to pop on there is every bite should contain half of the busy quick action by and then hold it something I forget what it was called
and you're. Not thinking about should punishing now guy over. Oh, what a casserole I've heard of that. So we make this. This is in my family for verve generations, as well as allowing prepared during Christmas, very special residents, we're goin or gone one bound ground beef, one pound hot Jimmy beings. also makes that up. Whole block avail, Visa mingled, add up pop that on little right, hosts crackers, then dump garlic saw all over that have that bitch in the oven, pull it out. I'm sorry, so then I think I've heard that greater than the sum of its parts- it's incredible. We have a cooking expert on here and I just took ten so you know my way around. I love this Two months, every Wednesday Dax would make one of his recipes, which was allotted a all words. Russia, yeah, voted
was also good and it is as it was so fond of his eye. Every Wednesday we knew we were going to do this. Then it was community. I guess in the imo. Anticipation my hands chickens. I only wanting number one. I would love to have some mean took up light of our chicken saying lodging cried. I don't know what I will do. That would be the always imagined her cry. Ok, back to a lawyer, you graduate from lawyer, you go to you, see Berkeley, that's a hard school we get into. I think it twenty years ago, things are a little different because I want to use ie allay one year after you went to Berkeley and at that time you say was starting gray. Point average was four point: oh nine in Berkeley harder, hard school to get it in. You must have done brilliantly and I was I could write like. I was the oldest kit. An immigrant had family taught. The message I got constantly was, basically I mean subliminally not sure not like earlier was like. You are only as good as your great,
right, you are only as like worthy as what you accomplish absolute and so, and to me at my school I was in the classes with basically all the immigrant kids, which were like the super duper advanced, the use of which was very funny, because I have this. This is like how desperate I was to be viewed as a smart kid because I wasn't sure, but I had anything else that was worth anything about my earlier when I was in ninth grade, I was put not in the lake Independent studies. Super duper I was just put in regular advanced, which was dragging our advantage, her up and something, but all I wanted was like not be to be on the like topped here. So I came up with this crazy plan. I mean it was so insane and I went to the case. Go accounts are, and they told the high school counselor that the teacher said I could be in the class and then I went to the teeth future. That can I tell you something: you'd be a day of great sound. Pretty
is that if they do they give you go right to the director them Brad Pitt ones do inimical to bread, pittance, hey, Scorsese even constitute emit, and neither of unwanted do it and they end up in a movie. So and then they let me into the class- and I was like I've made it, but something tells me you didn't get that a company and feeling you thought you were going to get totally empty adorable and actually, after tenth grade, I had dropped it back down. It's like I don't like this doesn't feel good and that was in 11th grade. I had this english teacher who's really changed everything for me and he told me I could write and they encouraged me to write so because of him. I went into college. Knowing it won, T be an English major right. So you gotta, you see Berkeley or an english major in your goal is due the aid novels because you're not how you of how very employable scale. This is. The most buyers are women and money in retirement funds. My parents were so proud. Did you have a labour poets that you emulated? I really loved humour in poetry, ok, and so Thomas LUX was a great, very, very humorous poet.
Billy Collins was sort of just coming around. Eventually he became poet, laureate really funny and really sort of very grounded and down to earth and his right in here I really liked. I also loved, like Emily Dickinson, whose I think like death day is today like up over years or so. Oh really, you can search. I where people are denounce, goes like who would want to interview dead or alive and she'd make my top guys her idea of lots of eating a yet. You know a lot about her shot, a ton, no, but just the fact that lectures worthless till she was dead. That's what I'm sat in her room, virtually her whole life right in she wasn t an imaginary love affair with the gardener issues like obsessed with the Garden Cosu, lodge him out her window and started crazy. What can emanate out of the Euro machinations darling? She was experiencing much of anything, no yeah yeah it somehow adroitness resident. Where was it hard to tell your parents? You were gonna, poetry or did they? Nobody was very proud. I mean everyone was in denial
like always like, oh, but when are you going to change your major something and when they realise there wasn't Diana became like we're running and good grad school for something like actually useful, are still, I think, like some of my aunts and uncles every once in a while will bring up grad school. I will not rule it out. I don't roll it out, but that can be, It could be your next Netflix Ireton rail is getting had its Grady, I am, could teach at loggerheads. on the other hand, cooking at school. Will they have against their will? fascinating sixty minutes a few weeks ago. Did you see it about the competitive wine tasting rivalry between Oxford in Cambridge, these motherfuckers? They can identify they. I think they have to take fifteen hundred wines in the competition and they, I can tell you what country it's from my region what, year, what grape like that, it's editing, rallies like a student get is a stunning: that's the inner athletes. That's amazing might have been on each be a real sports. I might have just advise the cemetery last night, the wrong network, which scares me
ask him if he is actually had any happy I'll find out. As other show up to that point, you didn't cook as a kid in then. How do you discover that you love cooking? It was a bit of a journalist, but my freshman year during the orientation at school there like oh there's, these things to do in Berkeley and somebody said, go, there's a famous restaurant, colchi pennies and also wants a famous rostrum. I mean at night. I just want explained like Sandia GO. Ninety ninety seven immigrant family, like my moms and extraordinary cook, I grew up eating her food and then we had Tucker those eyes shaky speeds are a shilling feeds. Irish on the sale of ownership is, but I really wanted to convey the calm of chicken pizza, yeah yeah, they also generally ever sailor, by which I mean our turned down. As I love a sally, I've been idle food poisoning more than anyone you'd ever meet because I'm such a proponent of the SAM I got home without bars like me, so arrest, terminated, so you really like this one of the most embarrassing stories are so I didn't you are so too
and there was a m in Afghanistan and on the way back we had away over in Kuwait in there was a first class lounge. Eating, like Reno Army Army. Yes, for nine days, so we get into this first class lounge and theirs is beautiful, Buffy laid out and I'm like. Oh yes and I start going away and I'm with three friends We are all going you might you back off this buffet. You know you don't really know. What's this is beautiful food? It's beautiful girls, the plane had not left the did the terminal before it occurred to me. Things are going south in a hurry. I had a twelve hour flight to Germany than a eight hour flight to New York and then a five hour flight to LA
without question the worst thirty hours of my entire existence on pioneering guide literally considered, I'm gonna have to break my sobriety and drink alcohol like I need something something has to help here. This is your last time I had food poisoning. I didn't know what else to do so. I went to emergency acupuncture. Open, ok, helped by the I'd. She gave me some crazy chinese earth because I was in such pain. Yeah I mean penal and you just military and you're, like I think dying, would be easier exactly you went to shape a niece. You don't even know such a restaurant fancy rather oh yeah, and so I was like. Why would I go there and there, like? Oh, your parents, can take you and then come to visit. Like maybe my most bear your mother. I went out with a ratio girl and you know what kind of just knew that it was there is it outrages the expensive. I mean I I think for what it is. I would call it that, but as a student, you know it's too restaurants in one's downstairs. It's a formal, dining room with, like I fixed men, Risa, ok and then ups
there's, it's all a cart and sorry for free for all and so downstairs. I think the Monday is worth thirty five dollars and fraught elegant and the price goes up and by by Saturday it was sixty five or seven for a student. It was definitely more than I would respect, though I just was like. Why would I go there and then my sophomore year, I fell in love and my boyfriend was from the Bay area and how he pee wee. He like showed me and it was for Europe. Pizza is favoured breeders here, ice cream and he'd always wanted to go there. So we saved our money for nine months and maybe some I care on some months. Yes, seven months and say we say two hundred dollars and we went there. I love this love, so many elements I like I like that you can feel like an outcast, a nice girl and then you go somewhere special like Berkeley, and then you find somebody in the you save your money,
not all remain aggressor. I was really I wanted to I mean so. Some of your first experiences are love Tide totally total is cannot no wonder you and like we you know by then I think, because we are saving up for this thing. I started learning about it so then I knew I knew a little bit. Maybe who Alice waters was? I knew, and I found out that we had friends who were buzzing people's there and I started it really know very much and we went in. I was when I remember our Dunham Skirt and top then we'll go sit down and now like now that I know every inch of restaurant every detail. I and I know like the time of year, we went it was those around this time of year and it was graduation time. So the tame the room was filled with, like you know, people and like graduates and their family members and legality regulars had been coming Lear, but that's a fixed menu select in theory. Everyone every table should have the same thing, but some tables had other things and only move. What're, though
I would like more those people with the elder, peculiar Enzo food came, and it was really delicious, but again, like I'd grown up eating really delicious food. So that wasn't exactly what sort of knocked me off my. What really got me other Tang tat. I had no idea what really got me was just. I had never been to restaurant that fell a goin to someone's, really nice home and that's what it feels like again. At the time I mean I was nineteen I definitely was not aware of or couldn't have articulated all the individual things that I was seeing in feeling,
but now that I understand, for example, like you walk in and there's these amazing flower displays and at the time and until very recently shape, niece was the only restaurant in the country that had to in house like on staff for us too long. Now, it's like everywhere, you go on Instagram. There's these sort of wild style floral displays that look like a garden brought inside, and we know the woman who started that like forty something years ago, she beneath his leg mother of that style. Like I had I ever even paid attention or flower besides, like the dozen roses, my mom, but ones no I'll know, but like these things, sort of like implants are on some subconscious level alike, on every Alice's, obsessed with copper and the way that light bounces off of copper and the way that that makes people look in a day
room, it's really flattering light and it's really warm light, and so there was all there's, always copper light fixtures and on every table there was a copper lantern later I learned that the man whose who is on staff, who built all that stuff in the handiwork was from Afghanistan, and there were a couple, afghan families who Alice had sponsored and brought over and sponsored their visas, and they became like part of this amazing, almost dear institution. Ah, you know this guy. Colleagues can he was an engineer in Afghanistan, and here it shape. Niece accuse the guy, could build anything I'll fix anything and so few built these beautiful, copper lent. So it's just like every single thing had been thought three to make. You feel a certain way and I couldn't have ever but words too. I felt that way I just felt right, and that was the first time in my life tat I had ever had the other than like. Maybe in my mom's arms, you know who I am, and so the dessert was this chocolate souffle
I had never had new flame of wire tat, one and all immediately, and so they brought it and the server said you know. Obviously we are sticking out like sore thumbs like two kids right, and so the server was like. Oh have you ever had to flee before, obviously not, and so she said, would you like me to show you how to eat it? So already. I applaud you cause. I would be triggered by that. I would feel stupid and low right, and I would have said yes and then I wanna do is right. I mean I believe you are yes, of course, there have been many many ways I had one before we got here, though she's show it. She said, oh, you poker hole in it with your spoon and you there's like this raspberries ass, any more the sauce and in that way every bite by then she said how is it- and I was like? Oh, it's really good, but what would make it even better?
There is a glass of cold milk because, like I was too dumb to know many things I was too come to know like how rooted is to tell the person in the restaurant. What would you think that arrive? I you know get on your hands, you observe this would also to me. I was like you know your whole life you're, like warm brownies, called melody, keep comment so I was like this is missing milk and she was like you up milk, and I was a kid so she wouldn't. She brought me a glass of milk and then she brought us each like a glass of dessert wine to teach us like the, because only years later, like when I lived in ITALY, did I understand that, like in fine dining and european dining like milk is considered for babies, and so, if you eat, if you're in ITALY or France, a new order, a cappuccino or coffee latte. After ten a m there, like up your America, blank Maria Italian, only drink like you know, dark, like anything with milk is baby food right
in July we rights. If we already, I did not given away my honour who's. This has for milk. I really had done here. I mean I still maintain My warm charge, glared were only. I guess my my follow up question is. It did make a better deal the ice there are. There is a great burger place in Santa Monica call fathers off now. I love others office, but they don't fuck with me. Shep right yes and they don't mess with. I tell you there early so when I lived and that's how I used to go with a backpack sneak catch up and I think a diet coke, as I am sorry guys, as this is already perfect, but it just got more perfect yeah, that's ok with intelligence and soda, and so then I was very move by this meal and I always had a job throughout college like to help pay for myself. I was like well, maybe I can
here. So I wrote a letter I mean I had no idea who to red letter to so. I addressed a Dallas waters. Nay said, oh, I had this magical dinner years, whereas may have never worked in restaurants, and can I please have a job and I brought it in and they were like, oh yes, to bring to the fore manager, so they like lead me to the full. Managers office and when she opened the door, it was the Souffle lady I know by now like it had been several mind like it. I had tat, I went abroad and came back and then if it had been several months, but we remembered each other and so then she was like oh yeah. You feel that way. Now and then she was like you start tomorrow, which meant nothing other than she was desperate. But then I started the next day, sorted bussing tables, and so you know- and my like I said, I'm like this immigrant kid who was taught that myself worth was based on working, really hard visa and so I'd always been searching for like people who were as crazy, perfectionist work, hard workers and I M, and that environment in that place
The first time that I was found. My people know like my first day at apennines, was the twenty Eightth birthday of the restaurant had been there for twenty eight years already there was a system for everything and so like when I was being taught to take out the trash there like. Oh, you tie the bag in this way with this string and then, when you take it out, you put it in the trash. Can in this way, Alice doesn't get another way right. You know to me, I was like war like everything's. Been thought of this crazy insanity is like my language here, and so I just was like challenge except. It was like a complex machine,
He's right, like is so easy for one thing to go wrong and then the whole thing could hardly anywhere you dont want to be the weak link in the whole system. You know, and for me at that point I had no interest in. I was really it will. Therefore the cooking I was there just for the staff me I'd like to get their four p m, the first off meal work, my shift aid again admitted as October as yet, and it just airing tasted so good. But you see, you know all the time you're walking through the kitchen then vacuuming, before the dining room and sort of seeing how this place runs in the fact that, like it's all about the cooks, the cooks are sort of the most revered people there and that really, at that time, the that generation of cooks there are many of them had been. There are like almost the whole life of the restaurant awhile. Was it mixed ethnicity? What the cook sorted it like that some groups seem We now know her. Why are you really? Why am I know, a lot of women? Lot? Ok! Ok, mostly, why I'm trying to think I mean there are. Definitely there was a
generate a little bit after me being there. They call themselves the shaven invasion asian, shake a lotta Koreans and Taiwanese unlike Filipinos and stuff, but primarily white for sure, and in fact I only now, as I start to understand, like systemic racism and stuff do I have words for certain things that I could not have put my finger on in that time, that one of the reasons I felt so different was because I wasn't but, like I didn't like I just was never even thinking of sure yeah. Of course everything just now. It's. The one life you ve had not his. How life is not even worth questioning light out is now how long we, for you work your way up to cooking that the I bussed tables for about a year but like within a month of being there. I have a journal from that time and so from which art in a month I was asking them to volunteer in the kitchen, and so once a week I would come in and volunteer like golf day before my busing shift, and then
vegetables or that it was even like lower than like. I was may be allowed to appeal against our eye pop Fatah beans all day or something, and then it was like. Can I get a job here early? Cannot what what do I need to do to even get an unpaid internship, that would be, then maybe you possibly do a job. You know at the time the restaurant was getting like every year, rat, bastard, John and America are wired magazine and stuff, and so you know they had their pick of whoever they ever want. my car, and so there was a lot of competition. There is really no reason to choose me and eventually, one chef sort of he sort of like took a liking to me and he was like listen. I cannot give you an internship, you don't know anything, but here is if this huge stack of books go read them go cook from them. Learn them there. Inspires are cooking here, pay attention every day when you come to work, pay attention when we're tasting and talking about stuff and come back to me in six months, and so I did, he figured out a way to help him get me a unpaid internships out. So I started
during my and then eventually after like much everywhere, one of the shattering opened the area it took. A lot of, I was very resilient, like when people didn't necessarily want to give me an opportunity. I just sort of didn't disappear, but I am the thing about a restaurant is immensely. Tell anyone like wants to be a cook just keep showing up, because some theirs, maybe a day we're like there's an accident or someone get sick or someone doesn't show up and like not day, Europe will embody and I'll put you in yeah yeah, there's. Also again, I don't. I don't know if it's the same shape unease, but am I've worked at a few restaurants in there is enough also I'm sure you re kitchen confidential on. I love that book its life in the fast lane. If you work at it, I mean people are fucking more their drinking, more they're doing drugs more. I have to imagine the opposite of you're. Ok,
hiding sit yeah for sure I mean shaping ease by the time I got there. It had duffel it. I think there were the coke years in the long or short I mean, there's, probably still drugs and stuff. I was there, but I dont I'm so naive, like it, I'm like weak people have sex we're gonna get people do bad stuff, so I did it where there were so much progress. No remedying! I think I just wasn't even like operating on that wavelength. I was like at my cut. That's right! You don't like it so there are still stuff where I'm like people too bad a flight rise, but but about but a bit of a culture shock just that warlords. Totally in the dream I mean the drink, the servers Nagel drinking afterward, you like people, late night, lifestyle, totally different life, even in latte, less like in just the enjoyment of food is, as it is almost like. Sport right at the wheel
happens that our waiters around now lay at nice restaurants in their budget of what they spend on food blows. My mind you knowing each is because that's their world like their virtually working to eat at all these other sets. It seems it high and I fully I fully did that in the beginning, and that was my thing was because I wanted to immersed myself in this world and learn about- and I remembered everyone was talking about some place called the french laundry and why you told him what a laundry put my idea you now and then and then that, like one year, one number one, you don't push shaping east number tune and we were all like all. We gotta go there ina like what is this thing yet and now I've I've not even achieve pennies, but I beat not french laundering. One time was christian and I'm not a food. He I will not describe myself as a food. The reason I can say that places special for me is that food, I categorically I hate I loved their. Oh, you did. I dont like caviar,
I dont, like oysters, are the most popular thing as diamonds in her own right, caviar and oysters. I believe her. I had a bite nose like I'll need, five more than like there's no way that amount is gonna. Do me after it now tasting it, and just all the pageantry, the little egg coming out there have been sawed off at the top and then the mother of Pearl spoon. You know it was so crazy. It was so, unlike anything, I've ever experience- and I said to Christendom like this- is Adult Disneyland like it is. It is the most like erotic experience. I've had outside of the house and it is but doesn't, and we started eat at nine thirty we'd international, how well thirty, when they call it they go. Do you want some, the white truffle? What those are my yeah? I want whatever you're selling they brought that box out with the truffles a guy put on white gloves to open it, and I said the person if they murder someone for our amusement. I won't be shocked. That's how heightened this experiences like it so crazy. What was your take away from that? I only
I've been there one time really quick. Did you go at all with a little trip unusual or that you are shaping east gang and they heard just curious? Go there to go like how to vote to dig become number one? Oh no, and I was also about much beyond when I was part of that. I would also curious caused by then it hurt heard about it forever. It looked through the book. I think for me what what I felt was that it was- and I say this in the most positive, like version of the word, which is not so different. What you're saying it felt like a spectacle yet right like to me it was that it was all about this very heightened expired. yeah where I mean- and I was just from a service point of view, so impressed every person at the table had a personal server for the food was like all put down like in a symphony Everyone got their played at the same moment. I was there were similar food people, so we got like these weird extra level, a special treatment things, whereas
the table next to us, everyone would get the same soup at our table. Everybody got a different soup so that there is this whole thing. Wherever one decided, we should all taste all this five really was the LA area while the whole Damn Algiers like this is something you would never do even more than once a year not like eating either. This restaurant once aware once a lady I'm just in year aware of that area like a cruise to Alaska, something you like. Why won't do
again this. I spend a lot of time thinking about language, and I spend a lot of time thinking about like just the word restaurant and what the word restaurant means and because they're all these lists, like best restaurant and so people think of restaurants as a place that you go to and you sit down and new order. Food food comes and you eat it. But to me why a chef like Thomas Color or any of these other really great chefs in American around the world who have taken sort of dining to that level, are doing it's. It's a mistake to put it in the same cattle gory, as all of the other things that we go to from many other reasons yet Danny. As dummies, if you go to when you are hungry and your driving somewhere or your hammer units three and four in like or you can't afford to eat out yachts, where you take your only four Michael easier to six world saw a sign in the window. That said pancakes for three hours, and then we had the treasure
they too? Are there we are supported by the ory? What is the story? I wanna go I'll. Tell you what it is. It's my new favour, athletic gear there. Basing at that a gear. You don't you to tell me cause irony now. I think the last three nights in a row that you ve come over than in those possum white and black stretching worked out parent yeah. A momentum is pajama pants yeah. I have also Height Denham, but they're so comfortable. I can't believe I'm comfortable. They are yeah things really comfortable. They sent me a ones that was so comfortable on great for working out. Look. This stuff is incredibly soft, uncomfortable in it so versatile you can use it for any action like running training yoga, but it's also just great for lounging. Ezra do and weaken Aaron's, not somewhat Matthew.
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as a writer and is like a person who thinks a lot about the stuff like man. I wish we had become more nuanced language, the era this so that people dont when they think of Shaff. There are a lot more versions of what that could look like and be like it's gonna like they say that anyone or Eskimos you know that they have like sixty three names Now the exact- and we have a singular when you give it, has that importance in your life at year end and deserves all these other yeah. So to me the comparing sure within category I, like you, know like one sort of stratus I got I get, but to compare things that costs different and have liked completely different sort of labour involved and purpose. Honestly purpose for the customers. Visa is, is a mistake and it's interesting because I get a feeling as qualitative. If that's the way to say when I go to Lafayette, Coney Island in Detroit or I've been goin, since I was six years old and may memorize for
people's orders at once. They had the bill up in their head. The food comes out and thirty nine seconds it's every time. It's perfect! Everyone in there is having the same experience like that is on par with french lotteries entirely too have a right to it. Just satisfies a different thing in your life yeah. So you start cooking. You become a chef there and then you, you leaving you good. Italy was at a hard vision because you had a colleague MRS thing. You have obviously been so where they never ISAF, which are the people in charge. I was just talk. Ok, I don't even know the difference, so I just do not take credit where I don't deserve and how I really had always wanted to go to ITALY. I just became obsessed with it. Had you bro monopoly that nice boys, but that that overlap with your decision to go to ITALY I will ever is over by then be ok. Ok, quite often these radical changes for us. Any change our life in a positive way totally are born out of like being heartbroken. Oh, I was heartbroken for years.
Ok, listen! My man like Alan Johnson. We found him he's here, he's regret. All the height of ISA is always able to hide very well, and I now so. I really wanted to go to ITALY, but more than that, I think the chef who gave me the opportunity he this was also before fifteen confidential came out and I was even before Malcolm Gladwell ten thousand hours, and then they were always telling me. You won't know anything about cooking till you, ve been cooking for ten years and even before he gave me the opportunity
in turn. He said, I see a new like you're, so smart year, this great student go. Do that don't be a book he was like if you're gonna be a cook, you have to realise there's nothing glamorous about it. This isn't gonna led to like Richard in a television show like crazy. Male cover every sort of fancy island I didn't sell. My dear I wanna be with whom you tell bill. He was wrong with me in here now there is that's an embarrassing entered by any was like when you decide you want to do this. It has to be the thing you want to do more than anything else in the world. Because there's no other motivation, that's gonna, keep you can write going, and here I was so earnest. I went home and like meditated for weeks like twelve month this morning,
anything, but I really wanted to write, and so I went back and I was like listen. I want to almost worth anything, but I also want to write and he was like. Ok, you can come and so I still always was like. How can I write? How can they be a writer? How can they figure this out, and so I did a piper I do at school. Only. That was only a thing. I knew to do after, like what you do in your poet. You got poetry graduate school, so I applied and I got in and I was in New York visiting the campus and at that same week Chris, that chef was on his family vacation in ITALY, and I had asked him if he saw this woman Benedicta who had come into our restaurant for her book tour. He asked her if she had ever. Let me come in turn in a restaurant, and so while I was visiting the poetry programme, he wrote to me and said she said. Yes, oh my God
and I had this position and I would like do I like go. Ninety thousand dollars in debt for poetry, or do I go to ITALY, I'm so I was like okay I'll defer, so I don't to make it through the first and I went to ITALY and so because I had such a limited sort of thinking again, I understood things through an academic perspective through like a cheap, mint perspective, and I had heard of thing called a Fulbright grant and I knew that it was prestigious. I didn't I didn't. Even I don't really know yet and I was like I don't even know why why a person would get that by like I want the like, so I did the homework to figure out what it was and it's a grant that, like a student's, often people in graduate school going into graduate school would get, and I was really interested by then in all of the stuff about food tradition and food history, all of the stuff in in the late ninetys. There are all these laws that were passed in Europe, that sort of threatened to sanitize food traditions and create basic sort of regulations like six hate, health and safety regulations. That word,
crash in and eradicate, like thousands, your old tradition, my brother's father in law, they are called in his his cousins, there's a cheese that they make in there in the carcass of a girl. Oh yeah, that's the original cheese through because the enzymes in the belly or what thicken the they react. You know that like what, where most of my visitors are in and she is from a liquid into a solid yap all these killed. The UN's wanted this cheese you deaf. Is not allowing you to totally ease. Our group, too, is of his case started doing and it began
my god. You know everyone wants ideas around and they were making it in their heart is over a lamb or sent me a hopefully, the exactly and in ITALY. There was cured me Colorado de Color, NAFTA and color not does near Correira world marbles from a high and so in color, not the historically literally since ancient Rome. So three thousand years they make this larder, which has occurred, sort of back that in these marble boxes that are kept in these caves. So it's very cool in there and marble I factually is, but I believe even has like some antiseptic quality. Ok and soon people for three thousand years have been eating and making this right and fine. And then, when these regulations were passed in the EU, larder decline, Oughta was threatened to be stamped out of existence are, and so because it was not like in a stainless steel kitchen and a refrigerated Roma and generally good guidelines, loading Italians will, I know this. Marble is the flavour of our food. Is our terawatt. It's our history
It's it's who we are, and so the people of color not like revolted. You know, and they were like we're, not gonna, follow this law and there was a period in the nineties were actually pull of in pizza was out. I been really anything, you know our single currency, Majestic Navy and then again still like Italians. They were like fucking us, we're gonna be my alarm right, but so I was super interested in all those things and there was a little being of using a variety of making a nose. Then we may get anyway. Nor does it there's a girl or as a nobler Brazil, rainy body, but a man trying to get the attention of a woman totally.
Do I gotta get back to their? Why I didn't do it. I can't there why I'm allowed to do this. One of the five looky on your words are no more than my hat and Roma people. You couldn't handle it boy, that's a lot of us. It's a lot of God. Nobody need to God, but rather to God, you didn't feel passion between one leg of hay, for I was like. Oh god like, I was busy. I can't answer yet, but I was very moved by all. That's all like I'm gonna play for a Fulbright grant to study and catalogues food traditions has always like this is a dorky academically parent approved way short of do
saying this cooking, going ITALY right and also having cooking and be involved. So in order to apply for a Fulbright, you have to be able to prove proficiency in the language which I didn't have. So this is a thing like only a twenty year old or twenty two year old can do well. I was saving up to go to ITALY, so I had at the time. I got paid ten dollars an hour, so I needed bigoted property nicely there right now, as a cook, it'll everyone's making more money than you, oh yeah, there's little. They make the least money which is really true, most restaurants here, the other guy one shake check that was kind of his daddy, my area. He has a whole thing where he splits, but if it's built into the restaurant from day one it's different and California has certain- ah, yes, said- are a little bit trick, use even turkey for harassment, alive, yeah yeah, but he is really great, and certainly in that respect so then I was saving upside. I gave up my apartment. The shops helped me fine, like a series of how sitting gigs right enough to pay
can I say one thing: I'm already seen a pattern in your life that is so useful to acknowledge you, you ask for help. I do and I'll write the letter I'll ask for the thing I'll be like. How can I do this? You know something really! And how do we solve this problem? It's a wonderful way to go through life. I have such a hard time asking for how I think. Personally, I have a really hard time, professional ever really easy time asking for help right in by the way I have been asked for help or guidance professionally, and I always enjoy so much. You mean quote mentor to people when I get a lot out of it. I never assume the people I would want help from would also gets out of any one citizen array self worth. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, therefore everyone needs
love. You always want to measure the US. It is time now, but I miss you and this ban gone before day be to see you and rain of spin the knife in your Tommy, dear girl. You sure, then back where we love to be put to the house sitting place was an hour away from shaping. Is my job started? Six I wake up and running for drive to work work from sixty to take a nap. Unlike her friends, couch drive to San Francisco from across the border across the bay take a four hour italian intent. Don't let me drive on our metallic newest, you know, and then I like bamboozled the teacher into MIKE marking, but I was proficient when I really was unsure
to ITALY and I went there and I I worked and I learned and I did all the homework and only continue Goddess hold. I you know I can't I continue it took me. I was still doing like all the research to fill out. The four like cause- it's a lot of you- have to do a whole grant proposal would end. So I was sort of meeting people in proving that I had the connections because I was going to go through university. Did I know people in the food world who would help me, and I did that while I work for Bennett at that I applied and I became a finalist which I was so excited about and then in order to not disqualify myself, I had to leave ITALY. So I came back to wait for the results I found out. I was the first alternate and this is a tower or break
I didn't know how much longer that was my plan like what do I do now and Bennydeck though, just had just come back like you, don't need that just come back when I went back and I worked another year and a half with her. She also the thing. Also wonderful was shaped. Nieces. An extraordinary restaurant with the kitchen is so unique because its built to teach cooks, it's a teaching kitchen and the many changes every day. So over the course of a calendar year or if you're there for a longer like you get to do so, everything do every day and you heard all of these ingredients and you get so intimately acquainted with them and their such depth of experience in the restaurant. That, like everyone else, can teach you something.
thing and I felt so lucky there, but also to huge place relatively and I went to ITALY and there are like free people on the kitchen sudden, I was given so much more responsibility and doing things if I'd stay to Chinese like it would take me ten years before they. Let me touch a fire in the aware. Whatever here am. I got this direct mentorship from these two incredible women, and so that was really really powerful and really special and gave me so much confidence, and so, when I came back from that, Chris, the chef would open the door for me. Companies had left and he opened a restaurant and in Berkeley an italian restaurant. So I went to him as I was like so ito per immersed in everything, ITALY. Is she in the documentary she's, the one that I make pass the right hey? There seem to be a sweet history that ITALY was my favorite of fat At my feet I mean it's. I every how I said differ there. It is
it was. It was interesting to see where we all felt, because Christians favorite was acid Mexico, like that she was the most hungry, watching that I was definitely ITALY. I'm gonna go there and I'm gonna kill myself eating yeah. It was hard for me to decide between ITALY and Japan, the salt thing really so yeah. I was weeping like a crazy person. Ass. I saw the guy my generation humanitarian needs the steward and the days and they are like. I was like. Why didn't you use any with crying footage and she was like you actually looked insane. a guy didn't wish. He didn't know your cry. He does our. Can he's gain a little crazy like we couldn't, is really mystical about that episode, aiming which I really like that the food they had only one for me? Yes, we're like might like this text. Surely the pastoral looked so I wanted to that tagging.
Tell him I was like. I bet that is ass by the logo. Hostile. You have learned tat bad. So But why do you gotta work at the italian restaurant Berkeley? How do you end up deciding to make your cookbooks? So just I wasn't product there at the beginning, but your show sulphuric acid, he is, is also the title of your cookbook so because the minuet shape and these changes every day and because, like they had given me this stock of books to read it my mind by the time I entered the kids, I was like ok cool, like everyone here is just memorized. Forty thousand recipes, that's how you guys know how to do everything every day, no matter what without a cookbook right like literacy, don't you
they are doing now, measuring any nothing they're. Just like all those little but this, unlike what is happening, I started to see that this pattern of these four elements was like no matter what we are making, no matter where in the world a came from it was this universal thing. Would that's what I was going to ask you? What was this? The way you ve categorize? Didn't four elements was that purpose are you Terry to you or was that an unknown thing in like if you ve got a commentary school? Are you the first to have this take on? I think they are the regulation of it is mine, but they're like Yuri, I think. Also after, like probably two years in the kitchen I went to criminals like I see this patterns, hope that I said he and he said he had, though we all know that- and I was like, but nobody told me yeah and he said yeah, but we all that's just how we all cook and sew every cook or every chef I know nobody's come to me and men like you, are wrong. I just don't think anyone used those words, unlike organized it. In that way, I don't think I invented anything. I think I invented a way of talking about some rye
as a young person like in the kitchen early on. I was like one day I'll write a book about this, because this is this thing, but these people understand and after all these years of experience, and yet it was not in any of these books and no one ever explained to me and if they didn't explain, Mueller explain it any or all home people. Yes, we watch it and I was like oh. She just explained how I make one thing that I didn't know why I did, but I would into it and so the one it was the acid upset, because after my Christian, this angel hair out boil angel hair, garlic, salt, one egg, a lot of parmesan and then cut up a Roma tomatoes and half of them. I cook in there and then half I add later and what I didn't realize I was doing. I would make it I'd, take a bite and I
it's a little bland and then I would add more fresh tomato and then now was in good taste. The parmesan cheese. Not I didn't know what was happening, but that's what you're doing on accident. I was doing something else it all now, this all make, since I was trying to find a balance between the acid and yet the example I always use is anybody. It's mexican food you're like or like I always get Benin jailbreak say get my Benin she's great item like what do I do to this light or if you especially get like Benin Rice and she is, I start saying: you're like oh, I have to put sour cream on outputs. Guacamole have to put salsa than you do it until it tastes right, but what you are doing is sour cream is acid, in fact, says acid. You know guacamole assault and ass, an have thought. So, like your doing those things you just don't have the words for it. I just help create language. They understand how to talk about it, which helps you understand. Why so that next time, when you're, making a new thing and you taste to air like oh yeah, this doesn't have that thing. That
I get my right bite of pizza or my right bite of mixed right and in a lot of times for me it's is it tastes Marcie, like a giant, isolate any fear. That's like one. I've fucked up as much I don't know. I wouldn't know whether it needs for solving more this or whatever is the theory of relevance that when you mix all the paint colors are getting away of black like in things like chickens, are anything like a million ingredients a lot of times. That happens for me right. Let's take a break and come back later untested again yeah in your big proponent of tasting the thought. While you ve you got, it is the whole. It is such a magically tastes good at the end,
yeah right, and so I knew the whole time I was cooking. I knew that this was my sister, my philosophy, and then I always you know as a cook in a restaurant like five minutes after you start somebody comes and even less experience than you. So you have to then teach them how to do this in right. So over time I developed my own vocabulary for it and I was suddenly teaching younger cooks like this is how you make of integrity of to balance this this in this. So then, in two thousand and six, the writer, Michael Poland, who arrive. Do we admired growth, omnivores dilemma the monotony of desire, he caught a reservation at a restaurant and they saw his name in the books. I wrote a cop pyramid, ironic I admire you so much I'd love to come out at your class at the graduate school of journalism. Berkeley and he wrote me back and he said: ok come talk to me initially, he want won't, let me in their costs just to those really little class in I persisted again
back down and that that was a really important thing for me not only to get to work with Michael, but because this class of young journalists really became the foundation of my writing community and may have the journal at their Documentarily, then radio, producers and their who now are amazing. You know I was thirteen years ago and so still like my community, that I have really leaned heavily on, especially because I didn't go to graduate school and I didn't know what a pitch was or like what a five under word story is or like there's only where words like not wrath of like what's wrong. The latter would write me back, not graph inability run over to me as offloading Julia. What's the matter, It is like the who. What where, when, why, like the graph is paragraph so like all these, the name. You know that are the were the window of the thing and Michael was just you're waiting for some like thing to happen, link some award or some grant or something, but just start writing.
So I just started writing for like local newspaper and then like slightly bigger bags and then and then he hired me to teach him how to cook for a book that he was writing called cooked and as we were working together, he was like you're really into these for thick sliced. You know, and I was like oh yeah, that's my system. I was thought I'd ride right. About died. His I get. You should really how she gave me really good advice and he said: listen like you live in a delusional universe, where everyone who you know was written. A book is already famous in some way he s, and so you have this idea of what a book is or what sells a book but you're wrong, because what really sells a book is a unique and powerful idea, and this is a unique and powerful idea that I've never seen anywhere else. So stop trying to do the cool thing and do this thing at and I was like, I don't even know how to start and he said, go teach
classes, teach the classes over and over again make yourself a curriculum and that curriculum will become your book proposal. So I didn't really rears to anywhere like senior citizens and our children's area in cooking score whatever on a farm and as I taught I sort of saw how to talk to people I'll sorted, drawing myself like little diagrams to explain stuff. So, Michael, I really was trying to emulate. As a writer and a thinker, he does this amazing experiential kind of journalism where he starts as a newbie and goes on the journey and takes the reader with them. So he can talk about very complicated stuff, like the food system in corn field
did he is, but without talking down to you because learning to starts on your lap, and so I was like out. I want to do that. So I tried to sort of do that, both in person and on the page, and I realized I couldn't because my job was to have authority because I'm I'm it. I am your teacher and you are coming there for that reason, but I realise that in the classes, what I was so good at was empathizing with students and and realizing like when they were frustrated or scare. What about something or messing something up? I was like. I remember that, because it wasn't that long ago- and I was the person who was messing up every I've messed up everything you could mess up and I remember how it feels- and I also now can show you exactly how to fix it. So I'd tell all these stories of like every terrible and like dramatic mess up that I've ever done, and that would then like we had a relationship Sonia. Oh, this is how I can be on your level is through these stories of everything a rule,
but to me like it, wasn't it wasn't a dent on my authority. It just was a sort of like a path of empathy and sort of. We now have a relations you up again. I think a lot of this comes from like being an outsider. A kid who felt like I didn't fit in and that messing up was gonna. Make me feel like I did. It belongs. Didn't have earned my spot there. So to me, I'm like new messing up is the way there. Let me know if I can help you see that, like also because I I love that we have all of these ways to experience cooking, that we didn't twenty or thirty years ago. I love that there's beautiful food shows and food Instagram yeah all that stuff, but also what a lot of that stuff does. Is it sets this crazy bar near what you think
you should be able to do at home. Your things should look as perfect as that thing you're thing you know, why is my egg omelette not so perfect? Why is my job is not so perfect and as they won't, do you actually knowing how many stylists it's ok Take that picture how many years of training it took such stuff to do that. That part of the story is not told in those images. That's bill? The element that I'm a philistine about, I dont understand the presentation. Doesn't it like that the view, Europe deserves our twenty, doesn't zoo anything. I'm Armando aid did something for you, then, like the hold to do a year but like when they bring out the point in front of
They ve drizzle something around the edge and some away. I'm like. I don't gimme a lot of the sauce. That's what I do. I want a lot of resources. I can debit and I dont want it spread out like a Jackson, Pollock, I just that's the only element of it that I can like. I can totally relate to like the value of texture, the value of the taste, the value of all the stuff, the presentation- and we put it all- shake it up in a Fuckin magic board. Throw them I play fine. Well, that's why I think, like one one way, that I do like to think about the difference between like a very high and restaurant and fair play, com, cooking or or even just like really great restaurant cooking, butts much more sort of a reflection of the home traditions genome is, I think, of the stuff that happens on those really high levels as art, and I think of the stuff happens at home or in homestead
strands as craft and so to me their ones not better or worse, write another from their different and they have both a lot of of work and time and effort that's put into them, but they exist for different reasons. None! So you know you don't go to. I we just keep saying french laundry and I'm not harp and, like you don't go to french laundry the like get full. You know that, although you but that's you know, you're not like, I just need to satisfy this hunger. Let me go to the framers. A nice had a very sincere conversation where we were like if we're going to continue this rate for another hour, we're gonna go, throw up like the Romans Dick and we looked at the bathroom and it was in its virtually in the middle of the dining room. You were like. Well, that's our option. You can't be in their throwing out we're disconnect to figure out how to put more food bow, legged, dappling jump till it.
In her letter tat they should have been. We were like I'm running a place for ten minutes, trying to burn some calories. What listen I mean I adore You have a new book, that's coming out short a hundred fifty years or a hundred years. Ah, I was then announced. We just saw that don't tell anyone. It's gonna be called what took what to come here. I guess importantly, you'll, be you be working again with Wendy Wendy MAC, oh yeah, beautiful when they make not an who illustrated the the first book is also going to illustrate the second book and she so talented, an amazing and smart sure. Her brain is amazing. You would be ass. She hasn't so many different experiences in her life that led to the who she is and how she work. So she uses all of this different staff to be able to tell story so, for example, she knows, and she in the beginning knew nothing about cooking. She was my guinea pig
a lot of ways, and so, if I knew, for example, like past, must sign robustness victim. So, like I love pasta, I ve spent a lot of years making it and yet in my book I wouldn't have a lot of room to like I wouldn't have room till I give a thousand pasta recipe is like I wanted to. I had to figure out. How can I give the minimum information that has like the maximum punch gives you? If you can read this and cook these, you can realise you can cook anything. So I was like ok, I have to learn how to organise pasta into some system that make sense for like weeks, I would just write down every past. I could think of every pasta dish with different sources. The shapes the whole thing until I started to see a pattern, and I was like at it took me a long time to figure out
hotter than I realized that they're sort of five families of pasta sauces or like tomato, each easy like Cece, foodie, media and vegetable e, and if and sometimes they overlap, and so I was like. Oh, how can we explain this? Is it a Venn diagram? Is it a flowchart? You know what visual way to tell this story so that I can give you five recipes and then you can start to see how they could all in overlap and inner if you know like the laboratory down here and there and so Wendy had worked on another chart years before called literary circles of influence. And it was this. in a very charming and funny, but also true sort of this realisation of writers and philosophers and thinkers over like the last thousand years and how different people have like in ways that maybe you know in ways that you dont know affected and influence other people, selling ride, Shakespeare and lemon ethnic or something,
you know they played Owen. I don't let doctors and the who- and so I was like. Oh maybe we could make a pastor circles. It's like an there's a way. We're like this. One relates to this one and you might not know how. But if I can show you than you know so then, at that point I, like I drew kind of like a very rough one, and I handed to and she goes and makes it into this beautiful thing, and she also puts her own very funny, spin on it, and so when I had to called kept calling on like pasta, families, she title the pastor Nostra irate families and made this month and so ill legislation. There is a lot of like very fun that kind of stuff between us, where a lot of them are just visual puzzles where me
My brain doesn't work that way about. I knew that there was some way to connect things. I just didn't know how right and so, especially for the next book, which is all about decision making. This all started to those training of like what cooking show to do next and then Netflix had suggested that I should think of an idea that I could do in a studio. Oh, I am so, but I was liked my horror, Hartwell shrivel and die if I have to do like a regular, cooking Chopin Raw, not what I care about and the concept of those is. You show up and you're like today. We're gonna make this this in this like contrived sort of like faked, Inter Party or fake story, or whenever, yes, but also what, if it wasn't about a fixed or what it was a real story and one of those the real story of like my actual day, and that way I could actually teach you how I got to what I'm gonna make and why I making those and also you know like even in a magazine, if you like see a spread of recipes and they have created a menu, that man, you may have nothing to do with your reality. Right like ye may be at your house. You don't have that much counter Spain or you don't have the right time or that gross
so as not near you or whatever. So if I could actually in the same broke down, I guess how to cook could break down the decision making and like what's the right thing to cook based on. Maybe if your kids are screening, their heads off new, have dinner ready in twenty minutes or, if, like its thinks, giving a thinks giving people always like. I can never get everything cooked, because everything is in the oven and when I know I'm the oven space, so how'd you think through that or how do you think through? Like you know, you went to the farmers working about way too much stuff like how do I use all this up or on the flipside? You just got home from vacation and there's nothing in your fridge. What do you make and so mighty for the show was like every episode could explore a different scenario: cuz there's a of these scenarios and then the Netflix was like actually want another traveller, so ones on the bone shall for now, but then I was in the major was like you know, that's a book and I was like oh ok, I guess after another boat and that's it I was like. Please don't tell
that terrible to man, and then we were immediately realised that that kind of, like flow chart decision making thinking is meant to be illustrated by Wendy like rats what she so good as me teaching you like look at this. If this then look at that, if that, then that don't make of something that has to be stewed, if you need to have dinner ready in thirty minutes, right right. He, as the only have fifteen minutes the busy quick around beef, cast our left him hops yeah. I could bang one of those out in the next twenty minutes for sure. If well mean you're so door, but we, like you so much. I like that. I'm a really hope you I mean. I want you to know over work yourself, but I also want you to have a new cooking show Logan Esther because we need more than on it, we need more than my working title, which I'm sure we'll get overruled by the powers that be MS carbs of the world.
the terms of the work that you can say: measle, tough problems. You have such a delight. I really hope you come back when you when you do your another book, your only if next time we can record the episode in the kitchen where, Maybe you make me something, and I make you something: ships such a deal and my wife will be blowing her brains are in the kitchen, because this is a right. She believed she would have earned so she's got sit and watch me cook with you, it'll be graded or Austria. It all worked out a lotta lab. Ok, I love you. I love you. Thank you thank you
and now my favorite part of the show the back check, with my saw my Monica bad men, where your party doo doo doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, doo doo, you already for facts: doo doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, Doo, doo, great sounded, Ducas, there's no lyrics already. What is Anna gets people pumped up YAP thereon pumped up when and for some mean she was so good, a foreign, lovely and wonderful and special. You know we already were in love with her is fair to say and then yeah that physical in person, interplay of whatever pressure shit,
travels between us that were not aware of, and we went to attend in we yeah she's, wonderful, I dont say the slightly. We want to hang out with her desperately at home, watching tv making food we want her in our lives is a great energy one of the best I've ever seen in my life and I've seen a lot energies yeah. What? If people fucking me so phone? You didn't like to your shit unwrapped Amber I'm goin on growing, more more resentful towards. We started a very prompt me. So phony amount guinea resentful that it's not just needs a phoney. It's it's just extraneous noise. It is very distracting when listening to something that you loved, though, unlike a well produce podcast like stereo LAB, where there's all that fully and sound a fag. You hear people's feet in the grass and stuff I love yeah, that's not what's happening when they're really weird bad noise, and while I was unwrapping just so, the listener will now a new package of nicotine toothpicks, which I've I've transition off of chewing gum
I go on now. No one day they thirteen and bang, and back I don't know thirty five. Now nicotine toothpicks a day, so I got on rap on the lot in its contents, so happened that sometimes our rapporteur on the programme- and I apologise to people with rapt Sophronia left labour. Are they this one sentiment. I thought old pair well with the Saddam Drinkin I actually think about that road because I have winner green and I have cinnamon right winner. Green does not go with coffee in the morning. Mr chance, bad Perry? Yes, m o ye would throw up puke up his lunch k, K or her lunch, but but cinnamon and coffee will that so well worn path everyone likes like cinnamon.
Coffee mate flavoured Kremer. Really I don't know, I don't know, I don't think so, but about a cinema. What about a cinnamon? Stick in hot beverages like cider yeah yeah, not really related to coffee anyways? The e can't get through a winner, Green one with the coffee, but the cinnamon one does work nicely. So if anyone's thinking about transitioning off of trouble tobacco to nicotine toothpicks kid cinnamon for your coffee, but are you drinking coffee? Oh? No? No! No! But but because I had a great experience with my coffee. I thought it might pair well nicely what Medici, ok, zigzag, sure sure we just went down a road of coffee and then you weren't, even drinking coffee. Now, in the visual, I thought I was actually cider sentiment: yeah yeah yeah! Well, that's! Ok! Yeah! It's in the spirit of some mean who's, always mixing and Maxie testing, trial and error with new flavors and combining unconventional ingredients.
Coming up with new breakthrough foods and as an undue on matters Julia could generate Johnny Boy anyway, see you at the time a grocery shopping in hunting and gather ers and how you say you think women have sort of a natural predisposition to liking grocery shopping, yeah, yeah, just think shopping and general any kind of gathering yeah. I mean, I always say: love shopping midnight, hey grocery shopping. Oh you do I. aid it. Why do you need it? Do you feel, like you, don't know What are you getting name reasons you hated all the reasons you set its overwhelming there's too many ails. You never can find what you're looking for yeah yeah! That's too much. It feels like such a big chunk of I'm out of the day it does now. I wonder if you use my strategy, who would help for you because it is, is improve my shopping experience, which is like I go there. Knowing exam,
what six things I'm gonna get, and I know that in the store- and I just walk in a straight line to all six thing get em and get out of there. Sometimes I don't know where they are boy. I I've been noticing restore for thirteen years. You're you're only two years in this grocery store yeah, but I want to use- I still want won't know like if I'm looking up a recipe- and I have like fifteen things- I have to get if it some I'm not getting regularly, I don't really know there. It is again I can like look and read the signs, but all this takes energy yeah. No, I know where every single thing I guess ends is at this point: thirteen years in a go in there, guy know exactly where everything ass you do: yeah, yeah, ok, nervously, ok, so where's, the the champagne vinegar the champagne been occur is likely in the very first row across from the poultry and see food on the condom denial. They have a bunch of different views,
rats and besought, Mick and cider vinegar all was all the vinegar. Lady ass dressings are on the very first row at garrisons. If you're in the aisle on this, starboard side do you. I don't know if that's right, so I can't this is not a very good we all lose. We could make a wager you could go like. I don't think he's right and it's worth to me. I think I'm fifty one percent positive is wrong, but forty dollars, ok. Well, I don't you could be re went on, I want to put any money on this year. Did you know about money and things you have a pretty good sense of which it's gonna, oh yeah. I am, I think it's I do the kind of think it might not be there. I therefore think it might be where the
spaces are well. Ok, great! That's what I did say it could be in that. I and my other. I agree with the other I'll. It would be an as the spices- and I know exactly where that Ireland's that's very that's mid grocery store port side, if you're walking towards the back of a story, no dial number nine under the numbers rights still have to like look up. and you have the kind of sea like okay. This is we're gonna. Do that. I know in my mind what I'll it is in. I'm saying. Even I don't I've never looked up to see if that's fine mayor beer, whatever yeah, yeah, ok grain. I now, though, to me that always is the biggest challenge. Is the garlic bread? What I'll of the frozen I'll? Because where would garlic bread b? There is no real, is hard logical place for it to be, but luckily girlfriends is it's all the booze beer and everything
The one eye on than on the backside of that is all of the frozen stuff. So it is in the back half of the store on the starboard side case. As this My point about the grocer, I'm just point that things aren't as simple as as go in there. Lies in your area, so I dont like going there point is the point, so I don't think it's a female male thing, but you you love, I'll bring you a lot of young men not reduce, not groceries, and I dont like shopping for the gathering aliment. I want specifics. Daphne- and I wanted to make me feel good- has nothing to do with, like nesting He would be my other bit of data that I would say to support my argument very time. Worn tradition is that men go that the hardware store on the weekend in their therefore like four hours and women who hate it shut their husbands, go to the hardware store for almost a full day,
and I dont use because they're not good and gather. If they get in that hardware store in there just aimlessly walking in circles, they don't even can't now they're overwhelm they. Can you remember what the fuck em they came in for many Naylor, some vast nerves were some duct tape but it is a very well worn cliche that men are in that you know they go to that hardware store for half. they on Saturday? I sure there is no escaping their families for half day and using. That is a pretty good excuse. Loan also be a good argument. Is that there are other Hobbes are like that golfing for six hours than these conventional may can harm, but I think I used to watch my dad eco hardware in warlike and drove me bonkers to go I can tell you he was not trying to escape. He was intoxicated in and not a useful way, God at ease
it distracted by all the stars. You, you would have a look on his store ego hardware that I'd never seen on his face anywhere out, which is kind of like bewilderment and confusion. he was usually a very assertive, knew exactly what you want: type a guy and echo as I watching a six year old version of him. Why are you so little boy loss us so eat and then I also think there's like some kind of weird cultural, dynamic goin as a man you're in there and you feel like you should have all that stuff you know like theirs is. One of them is the women. Certain stores. So, as a man you're like a thing, a man's disposed to have a t square ruler, an idiot in a ninety angle and shouldn't have a sledgehammer in your like what on earth will I use this for, but you're like this feels like prerequisite tools for a A functioning may yeah. You ve, never thought yourself like fuck, I dont have a chainsaw right.
You ve never had like a moment reeling. Oh she will that just happened to me Ray we're here in the back of the property, and I noticed one- the trees was dead, leaning on other transit baulk at all. How could I not have achieved and saw why? Because you get one b I got one common. My buddy Gregg ordered me wanted the cells to hurry earlier than the works great you're getting, but it was a blow to myself esteem. There was a failing of my gender. You norms, aim, that's fell, I'm not raw, I'm not telling other people. They feel that way. We are now being about how I I like a man should have a chainsaw to clean up his property when it's one trees, damaging another time yeah and what a shortcoming of mining that's a failing on us as a society. Ishtar should read that you personally feel like a failure. If you dont have a chainsaw yard,
I will have their they're they're all year with everything really moving Christian. Has it on a lot of domestic things? Like all mention somethin, I dont realized in the past I've I've not. I failed to recognise that a lot of her steam is tied to her ability to manage a home, and I wouldn't think, there's things that she would take person that she has, and then I've had a really remember remind myself when I'm irritated with something at the house. Things are organised or something that it's not just to people having a non passionate conversation about where things are placed its much bigger than that for her part of her identity that she manages a good home here. You'd like to not be that way right. I think those things are placed on ass. I sell it's good to note that an
like these are outside elements that are coming in while speaking up. So this is a good transition and we talk a little bit how women's live affected home, cooking, Michael Pollen. I guess wrote about this people that will upset about it, but he I dont, know why people got upset. As he said, loafers more most people want to get upset as why they spoke about it. That is exactly true. He said. Big food has convinced most of us. No one has to cook. We ve got it covered. This began a hundred years ago, but it picked up steam in the seventies when big food made it seem progressive, even feminist, not to cook K of seas. Bad campaign were sought a bucket of fried chicken with the slogan women's liberation. Ah ha he said, but if for we're going to rebuild a culture of cookie, I can't mean returning women to the kitchen. We all need to go back to the kitchen wrong, so he sang bad he's, not saying like there's a woman's job there there's one
a man of myself that I forgot so swept up in those means just aura that I ass my arm navigation for some time. Ok, one of the things I had hoped to bring up that I did. It was a single company. and of Marxism. I really agree with, is that he just a valley, awaited the amount of time dedicated to activities in a community, and one of the most inefficient waste of time is for everyone to be cooking because it takes everyone in our to cook wrote. It would only take one person in a community two or three hours to cook for twenty five people, so that's kind of one of the cornerstones of communism that makes tonnes assent. So in communist countries they would eat communal.
Lee and people would be designated. The cooks, it just way more efficient terror, and so I don't I wondered, get her opinion on that has just time management wise. That's a great point that Karl Marx observed right. This is something that could benefit hugely from being done. Community share, but not necessarily a woman are man nor have I could careless, whose cooking the I got no horse and who should cookery snowflake. It's completely dated at this point. Anyways, don't you like? I could see this being a real hot button topic in nineteen. Eighty five right, but I think at this point both genders work almost, but you know when various more percentages, yeah we're all in this boat together that no one has time to write. It seems like a moot thing may be mad about She said that she said more men of started cooking in the last one or two decades, cooking has increased, overall from two thousand three two thousand sixteen
that's incurred: yeah, the percent of college educated men, cooking increase from thirty seven point: nine percent in two thousand three to fifty one point: nine percent in two thousand sixteen college educated women who cook increase from sixty four point: seven percent in two thousand and three to sixty eight point: seven percent, two thousand sixteen, while women with less high school education had no change, o o grew. Do you twenties were more still trapped in a paradigm of, is it male or female, which is in even relevant my opinion? What is relevant? Socio economic totally, if your poor, you don't have time to cook? Nor can we afford to go to a restaurant, yeah you're gonna double flock tee. I now yap, it's really bats. The issue like I think that the college Ellie educated aspect of that statistic is so relevant. Women with less education spent more time cooking per day than high educated when
and but the reverse is true for men, hunger, Game United is increasing, especially among men. The women still cook much more than man. Further risk they're just needed to understand whether the hetero gene Janet D in home, cooking by educational attainment and race ethnicity, observed here, contributes to diet related disparities in the United States. I mean cooking. Your own food is always so much better than for you, for you then fitting out, even though I love the evening how I do too it's my favorite thing and there's a lot of exceptions that if you eat Rahman every day at home, you miserly that's triumph, but that's the way you hooking right, cooking, your own food is so much healthier cause. You know exactly what you're putting in I'm assuming you're, not cooking like Paul dealers,
her ill, but it's hard to do that it like, if you're the one putting the stick of butter in its yeah. It really is hard to do a little Lula. I and you have the ability to make a change on it. We have a favor restaurant. Where that all my name was in my pack, the ribs and fat overnight yeah, I know the best ribs and the planet. Now I can go there and eat them. Guilt free, but I couldn't be packing around ribs the night before I couldn't do ethically now some of these nice fancy Rahman restaurants are broadly healthier and the little man now I mean because it put it, I mean sure some of these places are healthier than other places, but we just don't know what they're putting in even the other day I went to. Russia was so good and I got like a help. The omelet and it was grey after I was like, I made a healthy choice, but then I was like how do I know if I made a healthy choice, they could have put a ton of butter that I don't know that
having the eggs and fat they only as my days and so good year near you. What you assume is that they just cook better than you, but that's horseshit. There does using way more man louder and all they only did I I mean they also could better than you by our ideal. But the most significant thing is how much yummy healthy fats or in a while, perhaps a healthy found any ok. So you mention the wheat revolution. We talk a little bit about this before, but that is also called the green revolution revelation more third agriculture revolution, a set of research technology transfer initiatives occurring between nineteen. Fifty in the late nineteenth sixties that increased agricultural production worldwide, particularly in the developing world. Beginning most market we at the late nineteenth sixties, the initiatives resulted in the adoption of new technologies,
hi, yielding varieties of cereals, especially dwarf weeds and rises in association with chemical fertilizers and agro chemicals and with controlled water supply and new methods of cultivation, including makin,
facing all of these together, were seen as a package of practices to supersede traditional technology and to be adopted as a whole. And then you know Norman Borlaug, the father of the Green Revolution, the received the Nobel Peace Prize in eighteen. Seventy credited for saving over a billion people from starvation and his whole thing was weak right, yeah, that's what this whole thing is in has I think we love to vilify it's it's all easy and fun and natural, but the big agriculture just more complicated than theirs: evil, Mazato, which of course, maybe they have some evil practices- that's probably true, but seven billion people feeding them. It might might be impossible to do in an ideal way to leg. I have, in the past, been a little frustrated when people when there's an oil spill and there's this crazy, outraged
the company brain again. I hate oil spills as much as any other person does, but it feels a tiny bit hypocritical that we're all using petroleum someone's going out he's getting an hour. I wish we weren't yeah, but but we are every single person that complain drove their car that day they used plastic in their home, their using it they're using a ton of it. She can only be so outraged if you're buying the product and there's some company that has to extract it from the earth and then refine it. It's not a perfect process. It sucks that that's gonna happen, but it's gonna happen until we stop consuming it. So I just some of it to me treads a little into hypocrisy. Yes, I see what you're saying, but also no, because, if you're outraged by the oil spill in you also feel like we are aid to tied to oil in this country. But yes, I am
DR, my colleagues, I have no other option, but you can't you. I don't think you can make a villain of the person supplying the thing you want. I don't want that. I want every car to be electric, but an errand it to be a widespread situation, were that's easy and but that's the scenario of the country so uber them. Yes, why not be mad at battery technology will not be met at the the many road blocks of making great electric cars available for twenty thousand dollars. You know be mad at those things. The fact that someone supplying a need in the market- I just I don't understand that there are some that their their part of the reason that there is a need for what I think you can be really matter justifiably. Is them lobbying to roadblock green technologies. When I mean that's, why being really mad about right, but finding out that an oil tanker crashed at some point, oil tankers are gonna crash. If you ship billions
and billions and billions of barrels of oil around the world you're going to have spillage it, just that there's no version where you don't have that. I guess I just don't think Thank you, you, you maintain the right to be that critical of it while using it is my issue. Now you can be critical of them. Road blocking new technologies, that's. I think you're on solid footing for that argument. I just don't think you can. You'd like guzzling year, can a beer and also criticising but wise or are you just seems a little hypocritical women. A civilian can't make that decision every day is up to the government and bigger and legislation. In all of these things to actually make change about,
that's, ok. I mean people can be upset because, but why has more guy? Why of ex armor standard or because they are doing everything they can to prevent change? What have they weren't lobbying, but so that we may that illegal for them, the lobby and all they were doing providing oil? Here I mean: can you be mad at some minutes providing a need? The consumer's demanded war, the more they were just like, hasn't tears, the knee, but what if they were all just like? Ok, you're right, we're, evil we stop. The world would collapse I really would at this point, the world would collapse or not if, if, if it was a slow process of moving towards different, greener, cleaner technologies, if they per if they put all their personnel in all their region.
MRS in T, that's how a business there and you can't ask them to be in a business there, not in there in the business of getting out of the ground, which is hard to do than they have perfected over the last hundred fifty years that system there are not even mosque, they're, not they're, not at the forefront of electrical motors and in battery technology. So it's I don't know why. We think we could expect them to be a company there. Now but do you think that about Coal Bonner percent under medical minors, on automatic coal producers? I am mad that we still consume call, That's what I'm mad mad adds that thing. I'm saying no everyone in America likes to have it both ways. They want to hate the oil company and then use oil, and I am saying I'm mad- that we use call a mad that we use oil, I'm not mad.
The people supplying the thing we need one, not mad at the people working there, no, but the company as a whole, the whole point of them I don't like, and I cannot like that and drive my car and wish them. I was driving a different car that all the cars on the road where eight we were able to. Yes. So the point the yes you can wish you Laurent driving an oil car driver hybrid, but yeah yeah that often run don't get yeah you at the time are not, however, lot much also that the electricity that driving the car is being produced by coal fired plants, often yeah, so how are needs to love it if all of it I do to you, I'm not asking you didn't, I'm not asking anyone to not love that wants that an wish they weren't doing it.
Donors do what you're mad at the people supplying the thing you are using, it's like being man at the drug producers and not the drug attics yeah, but would be helpful if those people weren't doing Massey. I know I never agree with that. Like never agree that you're gonna attack the drug problem in the world by getting rid of the growers doesn't work. You can hopefully get rid of the demand. You won't get rid of the supply yeah, it's less less self responsible to ask. You know what I can't stop taking drugs, so I want everyone on the planet to agree. They're, not gonna, groaning more. That's a total lack self responsibility in my opinion, but it's all for this is that this is not an exact analogy, because you can live without drugs. You can lit. We can't live right now without oil. You could people are doing it. It's not how I want to live. I mean you can't
live end, be thriving without a I dont think currently, maybe depending on where you live. All that to say, even if I can see do that, you have to have it. It's not. The fault of the people producing them. If the thing- and you can be made at your government for not internalizing unfriendly- be mad at your government yeah, they are in charge of protecting this country. Their son social responsibility, that's ok for us to expect from humans and companies. There is a responsibility, that's not by law, labelled a more! Maybe it's not black and white clear, but we should be hopefully doing what he can to move forward in a bed her way, all of us all the time. So yes, the prison, providing the drugs issue is not their fault, that there are drug addicts, but are they helping the problem?
You're hurting the prom their hurting? What I'm saying is, do you think the drug addict has a right to be mad and hate the drug cartel? That's producing the cooking. I thing that's hugely hypocritical. Personally yeah I mean, I think, there's personal responsibility and I think their social responsibility. I think both things should be happening at the same time. What is it should they stop getting to know I mean what a memorandum asking a sincere, not a leading question about trying to trap you what what would the responsible ethical thing to do as an oil company? I think it's like call, I think there they need to there needs to be some realisation on both of those levels at this is something we need to move away from and stop acting like this. Is it technology that still important and were holding on to it? So what would they do without him? For so what savings? Yes, we agree. So we don't you think they're on the only thing for
Do it in this scenario, set up as they go? Ok, will your right we'll stop drilling for oil? I think their share. may be a plan in place of over the next fifty years or whatever yeah we're going to slowly get to a point where oil production in this country stops. You're. Just one be clear, though, that but that but but but BP should say that so a combination act in a policy that puts them out of business, well This is we're to slowly go out of business because it's the ethical thing to do, but that's a fine opinion I think tied with the government. There should be some plans in place for moving away from these archaic ways. that we are hoping that the government's job. Why do you do too? But I think.
The reason part of the reason the government doesn't make. Those actions is because they are also tied to these companies other taking money from yeah, Deborah despise so bright. So they're not like not do what you're saying it's fine, because they're just trying to keep their business going Yet the very business that takes oil out of the ground cells to be that's, that's what they are there now. The government there not a club learned their nothing other than a business, designed solely with the intent of point oil out of the ground and given to the consumer, so I dont think they're the people. We should be looking to efforts to get rid of pulling oil from the guy doesn't very naive and in simplistic and in not gonna result in anything, but I dont think people out front BP with signs downward BP, I dont think vat is gonna. Work is
getting us anywhere now here, I don't think so either, but unfortunately only light all on away. Now they are, and that doesn't work either. So I think people just don't know how to handle the nerve illustrated very frustrated because they are driving cars and wished they weren't emits a problem. You know, I mean yeah sure just meeting a need, that's true too, but companies need to take on some level of social responsibility. We really are bogged down in my lighter. Did you like it? You, like argue with me less. Unless we talked about that now. I like arguing with you stare. I just it feels event than it used to feel that's or even a little bit yeah a little bit David gave painted you into a like a symbol of the far laughter. Something is that what you think I've done? Yeah, I don't know I feel like when we use
to argue it was just for stimulation and now does it feel like that anymore. It feels like the points- maybe the yeah maybe feels like there's some character assessment happening based on these. I don't feel it used to be the case, but so we did so last night we debated a bunch of them even read before we got here, we debated a bunch about an amazing document has got to see currently cars new Doc, not only about its about Michel card harder, the woman who was texting the young boy to kill himself. one of my assessment of last nights, and just before we got here was awesome in the old kind of argument. Would you agree? I led yeah and- and I think what is different about vat in what we just talked about as their there isn't a political element to that documentary really
so here you see a political, I guess rapid still, bearded universal and moral conversation, yes, but we're just kind of assessing like who's responsible. Who do we think as responsible? What should someone be responsible for all their yeah if to me feels apolitical sure, yeah, vesture, yeah, yeah, and so I'm sensing that may be? First and foremost, we didn't have a ton of political, some some of the big day. Having this many conversations on the podcast, inevitably many put politically charged topics have come up share, but this isn't really It is to me, I think, I'm basically calling people who drive in say they hate BP hypocrites. But that's that's clearly. Leftist thing like that. There's no one on the far right is known. The tea party calling BP the devil, so it's in its implicitly a little bit better.
You know the, and then I think you and I are circling something were were discussed, rain, your more left and I'm left, which is totally fine, so maybe one that that we're not sharing and identity anymore. It's a little more threatening, I'm just trying to figure out real. We want. It is because I agree with you some some. Sometimes the debates are more person. No one should be, I guess, and I'm I'm arguing may because our you're, a nice identities, are somehow involved in these conversations on some level were there not with the Michel Carter thing yeah, the main thing is we're just closer, aha, so everything's more personal. I think we do great with Michel carbon. We have like really different opinions at different times by the way. What was really funds are our opinions were changing a lot daring
I also. Ultimately, we have the same opinion about that Michel yeah. So maybe that's also what it is like were happy the debate, all the things, but we use to. I think I have pretty much the same opinion on everything so orbit, even starting with add not which we demand the same opinion as true. We rarely yes, but it wasn't again. That too, was, in my opinion, very apolitical yeah. Maybe it's just the political element, but I don't like that because the whole, you know something that we say on here. What I want to be true and is true, I think, is you- can have different opinions. End, that's ok, you're, so I want that to be the case. When we have different opinions. Are you do so? Then I think, but I do think would be helpful for us to have as a red flag for ourselves and tunnel. We worry any upset. Just questioning. Oh, is this somehow may be tied to my identity?
Do I feel like if we have different identities, we can't be sympathetic and bizarre ends in love each other near when it's an identity thing we can have different opinions on stuff. That is unrelated identity. I title consider myself, I'm Dac Shepherd, I'm a macaroni and cheese lover. That's not what! So, if you do or don't like macro and cheese, is negative fact exactly to find myself. As you know, deck shepherd that macaroni cheese lover right, a duet mavourneen, she always love. Will we both do though grandma well. Speaking of that, this doctors die it. So the good the food. We stick me every Wednesday together when you would make different meals. That was called this doctors first word super food hands, because
but right before that, you did and actual clans you ain't nothing, but broccoli and spinning for a few days and now we hold this doctors firm, super food, Clancy ass? inventing a new word. This doctor we were. We worked on the title quite a bit together, but then you drop that I decided to bring in some old meals of yours, and that was called this doctors first world safer and it was so tasty. Let's try make it an annual I'd love than the outlets pick him up. Maybe summer feels fund because we could eat on patio yeah, you make some good taste treat maybe you'd want to do three offerings to. I was again data, the other before their negative as fund, because I'll just be like looking oppressive, Have you don't have go to use now have go to stand by and definitely not worse, super foods, but, but I could find saw you did me
the suit. The other day you loved, like I'd like to try that still share yeah I can I can I can do some staff tail Mason things happen anyway, oh ok see you said you see, I had a great when average of four point: oh nine, when you went there miss. I asked you when you graduated after I look this up and I didn't have time to go back and change it. So I looked up for one thousand nine hundred and ninety I'm gonna ninety nine b a two year, so it's might not be right, but the average GPA further clap for the high school class going. Anne was a four point. Two three o, my god. Even worse, yet Wade, I waited and three point seven seven on waited and waited is when they take into account your a p.
He and things are not working lives right right, right right, because you can have above a four point out because of that. So that's where four point two right, like your average person, took a bunch J p clauses and got aids in them is crazy. Really because, just if someone who did those classes, you get ten point eight dear braid, so you could get an eighty all realise how much yeah, ok but well, but you you'd you'd, have to give it a hundred to go above yeah for yeah yeah. That's kind of a man like you probably got these in those EU because an exit outlay, Daddy S, amendment three point: seven, seven anway too, which is still that's on a writer four point out scale right, employee be classed as to your point that you be in no. I don't think that takes into account classes that you have
extra point. Lying back announces the eighty. Ok, ok, the average waited GPA of admitted applicants. This past doesn't eighteen was four point: three wild lasers: it's gotten were an average on waited GB aid was three point: nine can't even do their average ac t score was thirty. One in average of eighteen grow was thirteen seven days a week, but is thirteen seventy on the new ass, a tea. So it's like outage. Sixteen hundred is unless there are old- and maybe they could maybe that's back the I never knew a changed. It changed till I get out they added a riding section. So then there was that of, I think, twenty two hundred or twenty one
there is something I would have liked the as what I said. I used to say that that would have helped me, but I don't know I think so. Your great writer thank you. You are turned on a good writer S great when you're good, great writer, ok, she said she thought yet the day we were quarter. This was Emily Dickinson Death Day, which was recorded it. Wednesday, which was the fifteenth and it was may fifteen. She was right. She was right, but she said two hundred years and it was a hundred and thirty three years ago of same sex, some others are sixty seven years similar am, I couldn't find it
The information about her having an imaginary love affair with the gardener gonna know, but she was a recluse. I learned that will always Klaus. I didn't see anything like that and they don't really know that's the problem because they didn't wasn't famous back then so they didn't know d only making, conjecture about love of her poems and stuff, but her she's too, where only white dresses after a certain point than she would just stay in her broom and daylight year. hundred thirty seven years he's been dad thirty, three one hundred and thirty three years ago, namely one hundred and thirty three years, guys. Fourteen, ok, so she died. Then in eighteen, eighty say: okay, so I'd say howled wishing when she died down until she was fifty just for shit. All you guys now. I bet you dislike older. No, I think she was young, ok, all right so tat. She was burned, ailments, ok, so to say she was born in eighteen. Fifty six have fun
Why was I trying to figure out who was born at all? I know exactly what I was wondering because that much isolation in seclusion. I was wondering if she was addicted drug because they pair of isolation and drugs pair so nicely I'll be there was there was a very significant upon a part of the population that was addicted to opium dry, as it was in all the cure, all that they sold town to town share, which was born in eighteen. Thirty people, like you re you're instinct, was right. I thought she died, really young cause. She had a tragic man. She had all these like problems. I think she added got a sickness and should be the only alive so young to she's living in her bedroom out her parents house. You know nothing of a fifty,
it surely ass. She had a small rested development. Monsieur dimension, the competent the wine competition between Oxford in Cambridge, that is on age, be a real spoke ramp. I gotta call almost furious called restaurant New York. Until then, someone probably does marble have anti Semites property ease. The truth about marble is that it has anti microbial and antibacterial properties and help them. You do not have now, and I don't think it's like that. strong are getting a job as like some. I cannot build a marble box and people frozen goods in their well. You, you can try it. She was saying in ITALY that the whole thing the wishes of the back fat or something I don't know. Where do we just? We learned this together that we hire a hog.
That expression high on the high I've been saying for forty four years. I didn't know where it came from. I learned it a few weeks ago in its that the meat higher on the Paul was the more expansive me, I'm an add on Our dog, ok in the fat episode ITALY at all right, so I felt like it was tied to her. I am organ one that document or easier. It's so good. If I'm gonna want it again. I know he's hill, nor I would really like to plan a trip to ITALY, chair and then watch just before we I really am I'd love that in the meantime, we can watch it while you make I'll be there or your spaghetti. You of a couple passes spaghetti dishes, maybe a minute gum. Oh my grandma resources, the whole five hour to you. How it will be
good is the one I make, but it'll be unique in worth it yeah. Thanks that you didn't look like you're grammar, but she had double masters degree. I'm really proud of should be here. I love you by the end them. I am committed to figure it out we can talk peacefully about our different. We do that job here, but I am. I am committed to being better at a time. Meteor! Ok, I love you back.