Ezra Klein is an American journalist, blogger, and political commentator who co-founded Vox. Ezra sits down with the Armchair Expert to discuss the current state of polarization, how liberty and equality can work in tandem and the impact of media on the world. Dax asks about his debate with Sam Harris and Ezra details the prevalence of NIMBY-ism. The two talk about the effects of political transparency, the misconception about identity politics and the pros and cons of universal basic income.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome. Welcome! Welcome to arm chair expert experts on expert, I'm Dan Shepherd, I'm joined by a minute. Your mouse there are you do in. How are you doing is really good. You know one of her favorite episodes of same Harris ever right was him debating this man, s mysterious man as recline. We were introduced to him there gap and we really just enjoyed him. I'm sparring with our our favorite person he's quick color or he good he's my real good. So as reclined is an american journalist blogger in a political commentator, he cofounded vocs where he is currently editor at law. She also has a new book called why your polarized, please enjoy as recline. Tomorrow. Everybody is the premier of Monica just love boys, I'm so excited. I hope everyone will check that out can support our most maximum miniature mouse Pappy Valentine's day.
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deck sailing yacht every Monday at nine, eight central, only on bravo he's if you live in Oakland Adieu, But you're from Irvine accuracy near are you there for work, or do you love, Oakland? You know part of it honestly was it. I like the bear, a lot. I love California want to be close to my family after we had the baby but been DC for fifteen years, and it was important to establishing our lives. dear that we could change things right and I get so into one particular rhythm arise. If I'm correct and unjust can be using some broad strokes stereotypes, I'm from Detroit, that's what color. Ok, my understanding of Orange County and generals is kind of like a basque neon of of the right in southern
California. So traditionally, although in twenty eighteen elected urban elected that district, its first democratic member Congress can order is totally awesome. Yes, this is the one that send some days now, for that, because I sent money to her campaign and I just don't care about those distasteful photos to Katy hell. Katy hell yeah in I gotta check in the mail refunding my money that I had donated and I didn't want the tag that struck me as an like yeah. I know I get run out of Congress through revenge porn it struck me as real bad is a great profile, her and actually playboy. Recently, but she sat for talked about sort of what she's doing next and how she thought about it and, among other things, made me feel. Congress lost a good first, I guess the the bottom line that she made
It we crossed right was that term they were employees or they were working in her campaign. That was the was that the inexplicable offence I just I just being I wanna- be carefulness unbecoming Atween caught the hiding out. Look super deeply into this particular scandal, but it was not clear, though, if the ploy ye had an issue with it and what the dynamics of that was it but the dynamics of that was its rider almost entirely come from an Ex husband upper event. She asked pretty different situation than an hr complaint. It definitely didn't come from the employee that I do, then it was like this person works for her, that's bad, one of the only consequences that I disagree with for the cracking down on these. He just misuse of power imbalance which I'm totally for their armies icon,
still date. In fact people work. If not, where the hell are you meeting people, I mean people is kinda guy, and I am I am too old who have used hinder. Thank goodness because I would have our Anna enemy would observe the I would I landed. I wouldn't worry about hated myself shortly, but at any rate you know This notion that you can't date boss there so many great examples of couples that have made it persevere in our favour, couples, and then one of them was one another's boss Nina they are waking up a pizza, trickiest we're having I thought about Alex. I ran out of the editor in chief of Oxford, the first four years and without a lot about those policies and those questions, and I think it is something we need to Her high bar right, if you wanna, go to each hour and talk it through and figure it out. But on the other hand, there are good examples of people dated Abbas and it worked out gray the out a bad example people got fired, the ass, the boss retaliated against them, and so the question I feel like we're in this era of like norms, renegotiation and it's very uncomfortable to be in the middle of a t, shirt before you figure out the new version, but but
Just to that point, so I think we have this fear of just in general, confrontation right. So if an employee is later fired because of this affair now this is gonna be a grueling process to fix it s or a menace, and so we'd rather does not deal with that. By saying you can never happen so that we don't have to deal with it. But my point is like: if someone fire someone cuz, I had an affair with them and they fired them wrong way. Then they should suffer for that. They have a who makes him suffer right. latterly out about this power is a lot of her windows. Fights yeah. I agree with you in some ideal world. What we would do is have negotiations have equal sort of constantly what if the negotiation is, never equal rights, then what do you do like? How do you and for that inequality at the front end yeah what what this is circling and weird ways already in what I think we'll talk about at length here today is you know some often can
fifteen values that we have in this country. So I think, as people have made their political leanings their identity, we forget that both sides are pursuing something kind of virtuous right, so that the right and just in general, is pursuing like protection of individual rights in the left is more generally pursuing the greater good of the masses. I got to see if you're in so far. Do you agree with that and some uphold an unfolding judgment, tear gas and I would argue to that. We have New values in the constitution, liberty and equality in those two are often opposing, and the right seems to value liberty and the left seems to value a quality. I think they both value both, but I think it is a spectrum and you know that the pendulum pointing to one specific area. So quite often, both things like fighting for them for people to form of at work is good and then what
to make sure there is no abuse of power is also good right. So it's like, I think. Quite often, we wanted just assume the other side is bad or evil or all this, but it is quite possible that pursuing a virtue, we do agree with you now your ear book, why we, our polarized there right, it's guy. It's got the contraction. Were a homo yeah. I'd want. I we arsons very form right and even we're we're just rapid about politicians are very ill up. A chair, its you'd, say, exert a renewed reviews of the book this morning and I had typed in why we Polarizing said: do you mean why were polarized I've already minaret didn't wanna set an abortive? Thank you, Mr Goodwill, but anyways one might might my arm chair opinions on issues that we really think the other side is like evil. The two things I would say that that made me think about is one Our wish. We had a more some stylize debate completely right, the
in some stylize way, you're completely right. The right is supposed to be in protection of individual rights left in in production of equality in a more balanced society. I think that if you begin picking through what is happening on both sides, you find a lot of variation in violation of that prince
The choice is a question where you could really imagine a right, the believed in a woman's right to choose, because that is an individual right, but at one another action and I'm not sure. I understand why people on both sides of that issue, but it's one that I think flies in the face of that. The other thing that I do think is interesting is a philosopher. I hope I'm not miss attributing US named Daniel Alan, who makes the argument that we have really aired in this country with this idea that liberty and equality are somehow intention with each other. The de truly had any kind of liberty. You need a fair amount of equality because deeply imbalance, power relationships are an enemy of liberty. I mean there's a great old line that the law in its majestic equality permits both a rich and the poor to sleep under a bridge, which is to say the rich, never end up homeless, sleeping under the bridge, and so the question with a lot of issues of liberty is: do we have the equality
exercise at liberty. Do we have the equality to go to our boss and say something has gone wrong here or is actually no liberty in that situation, because there's not enough equality of power for the liberty, the exercise tourism early enough? You want to quit the job and start a business, but you can get healthcare or you want to stand up to your boss, but your kid is SEC and you will lose your health care. That's a situation which you don't of liberty. So I think something that has happened going way way way back in the american conversation. Is this idea that there is liberty and equality, and these are should somehow be understood as intention? I think we should be working towards much more of a synthesis of them in and some people too, Peter do yet were, I think, there's a you just gave some examples where they seem kind of the symbol. I can't away, but also there are some very obvious examples. Where they're, just not there kind of opposing there there's you know you, could you gonna have some cognitive dissonance due to pursue both right? I just I
I guess I wish everyone started recognising yeah it's going. Be a compromise in its best case, where we were aiming for a compromise to me that just would be such a different framing there. How we think about all these things like this. This is a hard thing where no one the arguments of the book is that my background is a policy of Porthos. I covered things in Washington like the affordable, correct fight and the financial crisis and climate change. That kind of thing- and I had the same experience over and over again, which is up issue, would start up right. Washing ten in its hydraulic mechanisms would decide we're gonna take on healthcare this here inside sit in these rooms were members of Congress or both sides of the eye, all or think tank experts and both sides of the Isle began talking about what could we do, but let me do that would make us better for everybody for the left, given its premises for the right, given their premises and eat sit there in the plot, a compromise, because policy in General zero
a lot of things are kind of screwed up for everybody, men with waterways, you can make a better for everybody and then, by the end, it would collapse down into total war radio claps down into a pure party line bow. Nobody could, you know cross blinds, that's because when the question that american politics collapses down too, which is a reasonable question, the way set up? The rules is who will win the next elections? There is actually a compromise and that I'm right Berlin, who is interesting, centre right unusual thinker, he talks about politics in terms of elements which I really like it's a little bit later. Tracing and compromise that we have is slightly lazy language of war Right Class war as well on drugs in your on climate, like the partisan or such a basic politics is always and everywhere, but settlements right. You gotta think about what is your settlement gonna be, and I think it's actually a good I am sometimes to accommodate from year to year,
it's almost like you know any business negotiation, any kind of negotiation. You recognise that, oh that the goal here ultimately beast. You know something up the thing that what killed you and they didn't neither and then somehow you know it all, but all works, but I do wonder back to your point about when they were talking on the floor, basically private conversation in public conversation and what I often find just even moving throughout my liberal silo is there are. There is almost like the party line in the news and on Twitter and in headlines, when I start talking to people in real life face to face them finding its, not it doesn't mirror it at all. I mean partake early and I guess I'm probably you meet. We in the middle of the meat to stuff as it pertains to Hollywood right, they'll, be like open statements we would all give on red carpet, and then we will have these way more new wants conversations in real life cause. Maybe
one of us knows the person or whatever the cases and I'm just increasingly shocked by how different those private and public conversations aren't. I just wonder: is it because now everything is public so like us, I have to imagine in the forties, though senators good chat or those Congress, people would chat, and then they might come up and then what they did wouldn't be a headline big. It kind of move in somewhat of more secrecy yeah. I think this is completely trousseau. What I think is a public dimension, you're talking about I've, the expense lotta, my podcast of all bring someone on who's been. You know like attacking me on Twitter or what they write, Israel. Even if has nothing to do with me very sharp edged and that when they are in the room, it's actually sometimes hard. Even I want, but the dynamic
sitting here with someone it. It pushes you so much towards conciliation, and one tricky thing, though, is- and I think about this- a lot has, I think it's a hard question is which one of us is the real us anything real us right, because sometimes I think there is an intuition that that thoughtful behind closed doors, accent, like us? Who we really are and then suddenly in politics and we get onto the boat, and it goes he had her hey right will he was getting fooled by the kind,
nice social dynamics that we are playing in and then it turned out that what you really want to do with exercise powers of one. I think- and this is one of things about the book- the book is very much about how systems technological systems, political systems, economic systems and social ones shape the way we act right that there are a lot of different identities. We can have it a lot of different versions of ourselves we can be and depending on which contact you created for people, you get a very different version of them, but the other specific point you make, I really like Punta emphasized. I think it's a tricky one. It's a tricky one to talk about, but I think it's true people search Congress will tell you that one of the reasons it worked so badly. Is it there's too much transparency area to be possible to do a lot of behind the scenes deal making you didn't have cameras in every hearing, and that meant there is less performative grandstanding. There was more opportunity to compromise ya, but if everything everyone does is under the microscope of all partisan media at all times, then that work you have to do to get to the point where we say: hey, we're, gonna jump together and
just the incentives in any given meeting right. If you could go viral on twitter that day, there are no cameras in that room. So actually the question of whether you been influential had a good day is. Did your colleagues thank? You are persuasive. That is very different and people want more transparency. We believe transparency is a good thing, sunlight, Isabella Disinfectant, but sometimes I mean, if you think about it, who had won. I mean you're more open person than most about hit. You would want every discussion with your partner like out, but I was running a business. I used to think about in Congress how the meetings we had to figure out what we had to do next box if our cameras in those happy very hard to run how ya get not how we run other kinds of things. Yes, I'd say directly: it be nearly impossible at anything part of it. Emma. Can you were just talking about what systems is? I think when were most honest, we can admit that we as individuals are probably not as good as the systems. We can create that's kind.
The beauty of systems I just as if someone who loves reading history books at there's, so much of these monumental eat does say projects right like the panel. I can now the Hoover, damn the interstate system, so if those things literally could have never gotten done with the level of transparency that we have today can sometimes there's some ugly underbelly of some of these bigger things that just need doing and that doesn't it to be any either appetite, for. underbelly or acceptance that it's part of it. I think that's right in the other thing I do say it did tricky thing is we can have systems it make us much more. Than ourselves to all Jordan one I think I'm worried about like deeply worried about is a politics has become a system that brings out the worst in us the best, and not that I mean that has been true at other times right. We read the books and those were the great projects
I also had the not create projects and we also do not great moments in our social. Has you don't like eugenics? It sounded like an idiot. I didn't ethics, but actually give a hard example. This is a great piece after the political published a couple months ago and is about Dick us ever got a pen the pen station in New York, the translate so what does this house up there? All the time and the thing up and station is its terrible anxiously enable change they like does not nice stuff it s like waiting. There is unpleasant, it's very old technology. The whole thing is crazy, and this was a very deep investigation to they ve been trying to make that into a train station worthy of New York for thirty or forty years now, and what happened in this guy argument is that so Robert Moses, a kind of great all we also terrible and bring the power Board or right now is an amazing yeah yeah, that's an amazing but peoples, read the power
now. I d that one individual was so changed. The lion's share of that opposed motherless prevent wait for you it is IRAN's yeah yeah, I was super excited by those spoken became also Robert Moses Movie, that boy that's it neither what year anyway, but again he learns everywhere. I am example of someone who's. Like self We will run riot. Yes, the ending result was pretty positive role. Europe is, I want to be careful that, because Moses built amazing things in New York Ready Build than York as we understand it, but as part of doing that heat Roy communities of color. He ran freeways through them. He displaced huge numbers,
people- and I mean it- was very clear who paid for that progress. He created this and one of the reactions in Progressive ISM was to say we can allow like people of power to run roughshod over communities, and so we should create structures within the decision making process where communities have like a really intense level of input. But the problem is that if you bill that in too many places in the people come out are not representative right because of people come out a really there in general to oppose new projects, and I want the committees are to change. Eventually, you can get anything done and one of the reasons is really hard for us to build infrastructure in this country. The way we did in the MID century american period when a lot of my car, iconic bridges, free ways you know pieces of public works rebuild is because we have so many
turn all veto points but rebuilt with all good intentions and more in many ways, good, but also at some point, if you can't get around California right, if you can't drive some are or how good public transportation or I'm up in the Bay area. Now, if it's not affordable, to buy a home as a middle class,
person here, because he won't. You build anything because of all these neighbourhood councils, which are only about people who live there right now, so I dont anything to change at all forever. Yet they just can proceed as the immigrants that made it and then want to slam the door. So ya know I'm here and now it's good in this debt is an email. Them is one of the great failures of liberalism. What's nimby is not in my back yard, ism yelling. I want everything to be better indifferent and let's build like network. I e, as you like as recital right liquidity average over there tat the ants and others is a movement of India's. Yes in my back yard sickness is, I think, a pertinent health. Have a history like a big important fight, yet so, by make it a point to whenever I see something about the president that irritates me, I forced myself to imagine the exact same thing happen under Obama's tenure. Just gonna check my but you're from release that convicted about. how bad it was so innocent, thing? As I ran this little
experiment I do I was like you know. I bet my first reaction would be why the transcript of Obama, talking to another president, even in the public sphere. What why? How is it that Obama can't have private conversation with a world leader we all know about it. That would just be my first major, but the rhapsode transcript optionally. They did without. While it's a why part of this all I have friends in here I was it. There was one of my good friend steaming: did you read the transcript? I got you. It's obviously does it know then I could see you in a moment. We, genuinely are reading to dramatically different things, even though it's the same thing but who's gonna say, is on you know, Obviously I am on the left, so I do think that he was definitely saying in Bessie. I political rivals, but with that said, I am a little concern that two president's can't have a conversation that I feel like those relations need to happen in the done there. Never gonna hold up to the scrutiny of us, for it
later evaluating this conversation, let's get that. I don't think I'm with you on this point too. I think I would bind this principle, but I'm not sure I think it applies here because in general he can of those conversations they're not pup. They chose to make this call record, which they also added. By the way public and I think the immediacy there are really out. It was a narrow whistleblowers. Some someone said I was on that call, and yet so yet whistleblower who went to Congress. You went to the inspector general men and then went to Congress and said I have heard from people on these calls that something is going wrong here. They need to be investigated and, as there was political pressure building up to, Heaven bless the geisha and the white. I said you know what we're getting nipped in the bud were release. A transcript, you're gonna, see as in Donald Trump supports the call is perfect and then, if we suggest grows like What are you telling me nothing but, as you say, not everybody and want to things it has always been very striking unviable.
that whole structure of that, and I I've been in future puck ass. I've been thinking about this. A lot is that Donald Trump, and maybe some people round him, although we do not actually know that too well, look at us and said this great, exact or now right like. I should have done exactly what I did one of the chapters. The book is all about how we process information through a political ends. How people from different perspectives will look at the exact same thing is a great on line that we, we read or here watch things as we are not as they are. What we bring to something is very much what we take from it, and so people being up on the right have looked at this, and I think they are wrong in this particular case. But, as you say, Donald Trump clearly looked at this and I think the way he understood it is Joe Biden. An hunter Biden are bad for the country's Donald Trump. Whatever else you say about him, is it true
believer in these kinds of conspiracy theories it he ends up running down his if a genuine box, in whose views in this way and the right thing for me to do as president is to try to stop them to try to ferret out this kind of internal american corruption. Yes, now I think that thing where populist leaders decide that their domestic opponents are enemies state than like. We need you to state the start that we still have a lot in the world doesn't go super well long term, but that is not to say it's not authentic right now. I am there had motivated by actually even concern for the country yup waltz. again. This is just like a little bit of good faith. I guess I extend a lot of people. I completely disagree with his like. I want at Cheney Documentary on like just a hundred, he degree different opinion on everything, but do I believe that in his heart he truly was fighting our lead to make this country the best place it could be in his world view. I do believe that I dont think you an evil guy trained the harm the country. I just happened to disagree
every single opinion he has on what would make the country better. Yet I I think, in a way that we for good and for bad rely much too heavily on moralistic interpretations people in trying to understand their politics. Rolling right, like the question of is Dick Cheney under his own framework of how the world works, a good or a bad person is actually not an important question and it sets in a way the bar way too low. I think sometimes hear this argument people make, which is, they think they're doing their best ever harder, but the problem, is people who think they're doing good for the world on the left and the right can often do terrible harm because research true believers in what they're doing buoyant, they become totally heedless of the consequences, and in this way to be a little good place about it, I'm Eileen much more. utilitarianism say that I have covered Washington for the coming up on today. Now? I know a lot of these faults in the left in the right. I believe almost all
them are working to create a better world as they understand it, and the way to judge them is: are they creating a better world against some framework right, not their framework near by some framework? If you are, in all sincerity, trying to work day in and day out to take healthcare way from poor people? I do not question sincerity of your belief. That is maybe not the governments right to tax me. New fund Medicaid, so poor single mothers can have healthcare, but I think you're doing about things the world many rights imported be able to separate out the nature, people's motivations from their effect on the world. You I agree, but I would use all also say, though it's a little defeatist use, go like of their evil, I'm good and virtuous their evil, because there's no solution that what are you gonna have an exorcism or something. So to me, it's just a little lazy. It's gonna like his well to just go like oh Hitler was evil granted. He was but
It was evil done thinking about that. Now, what led to all the evil miss and how do we prevent it from reoccurring like it is relevant to understand, or are you not be I'm just someone's evil, good or bad, oh yeah, but What I mean a bit, I think we overly personalized politics as may be a different way something it's something argue at the beginning, the book some critical journalists and the way we can tell the stories were politics are through individuals. We write biographies right. profiles, we take you inside the meeting in the persons of the thing to the other person and then like they ran off and if they so the thing we everything would be different if you read books like game change or I mean. Is it all kind of works like this? We were human beings, we think in terms of other human beings and their stories, and we like Europe
we like heroes, villains, Nokia and it's why I think it's important to think in terms of systems, because one of the things I ve really come too deeply believe about. Politics is for the most part. If you put different people in the same positions, they would end up doing similar things because people responding to their incentives, some the a range of free will we have is smaller than we like to think it s young well, and I think as someone who loved Obama was confused by some of his his decisions at times, I thought out. This system is bigger than I think it is they too of them, something that they're not telling me you, which caused him to now do something that I wouldn't have predicted. You would have done, there's a lot of curiosities when people take that job. I think about this right now is some of the left critiques of Obama cuz. I spent a lot of time talking people that ministration when I covered them and in retrospect I think people some
rightly and sometimes wrongly, but in general and overly simplifying way. They underestimate how much caution presence me too bright with running round. Much was sometimes when the opposition did not make the other decision or the more ambitious decision or the decision people wish they had made. Now they didn't make it because they thought it had a good chance of going wrong and if it went wrong to many people, pay the price- and I remember, there's a very particular conversation I had, but somebody who was a senior policymaker there- and this was during out of it- remember the debt ceiling fights, and this is doing bad and the way that ended. There is a lot of controversy over it, and I was you don't make any argument in some ways, for why did you do this? Other thing that people like me, thought would have been better and the prison said to me. Look, maybe we should have done it. Maybe you're right, but the thing that you should always like keep in mind. It is not like nobody in the room in this room of political and policy professionals, thought of that
It's not like the recent things don't happen. It's almost never cause nobody raised their hand, and I guess it's this obvious idea. We should do that instead Jack, it's it. We looked at that and we thought that what would happen in the aftermath be worth now. Maybe we are wrong, but we were thinking that through and I always did keep a caution on myself. It's very easy till I love my arms from here from the outside. Will you even set? You just said that you know you have a utilitarian view of it and I think, like we interviewed Mayor Garcia, wanna things I loved he said is like you enter that job with all kinds of ideologies, but they neared. The person has to make the system there. The whole city wrought, so you become a pragmatist, really quick. stay stage. There We are supported by Stitch fixed Monica, describing look in one word is a casual, sophisticated playful has far casual
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you'd within which was spectacular around it? I'm a guy. Not there is a debate. We talk about our for like two weeks. I did people have people very strong feelings about this, but we did in Gusty, kept her all exorbitant, like a class of no, I was handled beautifully by that. I think both of you. It wasn't a fight. The leader. Well, the leader was wonderful because, prior to the debate that there was like emails, that's all I'm saying is that is as a movie Gower. I was like so interested in this whole. Now that the hype was very well constructed. Yes, like EU is like me whether in Macgregor like that is the pre game was really spectacular, but really only was made aware of you by that whole thing, the thing that I related to salmon was oh yeah,
What happens if we do get some data that no one's gonna like do? We have a system by which you can bring something that would be hugely unpopular and you know dangerous to light now. I dont think it turns out that that man's work was that I think you should have a little ok, you comprise somebody better than me. So let me give you the quick version, but recognize you get a little bit of my version of all try to be as clear as possible as I cannot itself back in the nine easier this is an old watching the door, although Murray's coming out the thicket, like the bulk,
to be slightly wasn't for now is doubling up two of your belt cheaper. So about back there he wrote a book, so the idea that different populations score to plan IQ test is not controversial. Simply true, right right, there is no doubt about it right and the Bell curve is a book that is not only about that. There was in part about that, but the kind of arc of Murray's work is he's up, said right, wing, think tank. I who we of initially became famous rippled losing ground which was about why the war on poverty filled with you, I think, he's wrong and it did and fail. But that's it, argument things out this book that sort of part of this move, which is saying that the reason you are seeing such different outcomes among different groups is IQ differentials, biological at least partially biological and thus immutable few differentials and, very importantly, something that Murray says. Is that no matter?
whether or not the IQ differences are biological or environmental. They are basically immutable. We don't have policy interventions, can change them, nothing at all levels. The evidence proves wrong on that, but that the different thing this is super country for the time I can take a huge blow to take but way before my time in journalism than things like some away down after that fast port Deca he'd, see, I Murray, gives a speech or is going to give a speech at Middleton William, something like that, and there is basically like a deep hot forming riot simply get somewhat physical, Murray chaperone his roughed up. He was giving a speech about the Bell curve. It was about his other work so like this is like a bad event. Young Harris brings him. Aunt is podcast
which, at that point I listen to occasionally I asked of imitation of Yang adding something else always misunderstood was it. He thought I was coming into. This is his enemy and just wasn't right. You're asking him from getting, and I think he always like kind of like was wrong foot it on where on where I was, but anyway, hearings on Murray, any basically has a conversation of which the framing is. We need to have this conversation, because what happened at this one call It shows that there is this terrible political career, donation, their own last talk about things and
and he goes on as it does to another hour. Competition was it, which I think is a very bad version of a conversation about the bell. Carpenters have very bad job, dealing with the extremely persuasive counter arguments to the idea that one racial iq differences are genetic, which I do not think we the evidence to save at that nets, true at any level and to their immutable, which over the past. I think it's something I forty years, the black White IQ gap has closed by more than a crook exists. By now, we ve been moving towards equality in this country, since when you want to call the seventies basically like a little bit January, I feel quite far sure I'm at every level, and so the idea that we somehow know what the effect of like everything we have done in this country to enslave and oppress and lock people out of a job and on anyway, I out is a quite bad version conversation, but that
TED. I like listen to it when it happen. To think that much of it I was on vacation and the organization I run vocs published to peace by three IQ scientists, basically debunking. Ah, I got back I treated out. The peace he's got very mad at me, child we debate so that we have this conversation. This is way more than anybody needs to know this. So the thing that you have brought up at the beginning, which is that the persuasive point you that he made is what, if we had information you actually dont want to believe an example I would give now is that I think we would both agree that mob most universes or do you left, leaning, the very lovely idea so scientists, some environmental scientists was to discover some data right now that prove climate change was in fact, not real can't imagine how that person would get that data out there or I would be fearful that it it wouldn't be able to get out there. I would not. I mean you ve its hurt me. Imagine because you'd have to over
earn so much other data simultaneously. Yes, yes, yes, yes, imagining that we had something like that here. Let me say that let me take the broad version of this year. I know people have this fear and I think it is. It is not unreasonable, but I think it is from Lily unfounded in some ways. I wish I had responded to this part of his argument more because because it is not something I am so concerned about, I didn't like I didn't take it that seriously, but obviously by the sphere. I think the place I come from on this is I work in politics. I have to believe seven things I eat about the world.
Before breakfast I wake up. I remember the present it as I like look around. I have to think about how politics works. Everything in my book. I basically hate writing. Let me give you an example: the smile, my own life, my entire life like career, so not my whole life, but my career is based on the idea that, if I do and the people who work in my field do good reporting, we're gonna get information out there and that information is going to improve the world. Yes, and I think the evidence is over, I mean the persuasion. If people decided not to believe you is almost impossible things, I talk about and buckled identity, protective cognition. If I go in to the doktor, like my knee hurts and the doctor says you know you gotta do surgery. Why don't want to believe that? But I will,
I am open to being persuaded that something is wrong and I need to do something I don't even like, but if your identity was, I have magic knees. Yes, now it's a problem exactly more. My identity is that in above all else, I'm a liberal and Yes, yes, indeed, have very hard, so cause you're, protecting your concept of who you are you're social relationships, all the iron. That said, I don't think that within fundamentally true seeking detentions and given the very many identities people bring to the table and how many different spaces are for people to be embraced, defined a group to find a collision that, in fact, I think, a lot of people are very willing to be the bearer of hard and unpleasant and very difficult truths. The end. I think, that form he and for a lot of people. I know a lot of people do this kind of work. I dont think it is easy to change your mind, but I think if you look
rounded our society, the idea that you might have to believe things you don't like and that scare you and that make the world a worse placed, you look at what we have to bleed today. I just don't think it's true that we're all such snowflakes, but the thing that you the point you aid in their which I loved, which is you are urging SAM to recognise why that story even appealed to him, which is just take a little inventory of your own battles in your life He himself feels like someone, who's said provocative things and maybe wasn't aloud to her was an embrace for was excluded because of some actually anyone that he sees as another fishermen at sea he's kind of gonna have a connection to end. I just I thought that was the best point, the whole thing, which is like it when you care,
so passionately about something it's it's worth while to take five minutes and go or what it my own life do. I think I've I've dealt with what changes would struggles that maybe I'm seeing that in this other person and now I'm kind of supporting their cause. Maybe it's that even the their cause, I believe images this familiar mirror neuron feeling I have I dont know if people are really kind of trying to take him. story of their own, their own lands enough in an eye, the tremendous way you knew have we all Monica has it. We all have an eye. Typically mine, I don't really have hidden agendas isn't initiator, so I think that we have missed defined, as I did this idea of identity and identity politics. I think the way it is used in some these communities and oftentimes in politics. More broadly, is that identity is something
Additionally, marginalized groups have identity. Politics is something foolishly marginalized groups practice so few. Are you African Americans create a group like black lives matter, to protest police violence without identity politics who try if world white Gunnar? come together for an expansive reading. The second amendment I just politics seniors, want their taxes, but politics awry if we're on. Doing about what to do with IRAN, ashes politics and identity is present and not as all of us of politics, but the most powerful identities are majority and identities and what happens when their very powerful is it become more invisible? Nobody mentions em, you don't see that their happening. One of the examples given the book is that there is a reason every politician ends or speeches with, and God bless America as not because are all very God fearing and they go to church every weekend, or even that there be a stick its that that is part of the american identity. American flags are part of the american identity
to identity, something we all have, and we all have many of them. I am California and a father Jewish, a journalist, a liberal like, except you can go on like when I was a kid I used to get into arguments about MAC Microsoft worry, I know where Europe, yet you are a man gallery or a warrior in the macro might be. I think, about sports right. I talk in the book about is less than five thirty eight put together of fifty some sports rights. It happened in the past by forget exactly how long I shall have them happen when teams one. But we get so Lawyer- contest that at some level have no real states into that. Many people will go wherever they get the biggest contract and so on. But we care so much. Our identity is so connected to sports teams. It we will pursue the cities we live in, and sometimes are. Our brothers and sisters will perish yeah
because of a game we are as human beings. Exquisite may earn Anthropology over a super tribal here about group recently tuned to sense, yeah the quite one of the questions, and politics always is what grouper we sensing and feeling ourselves connected to at them on a huge amount of elections is actually about which grew by then he's gonna get activated, or we can go to the polls feeling like workers who are oppressed or we can go to the polls feeling Americans who are afraid of China right now. You know it's a lot about it at all. Can I tell you that again, I'm gonna try to stay neutral, nay, political, but I felt it experienced it last week, which was with all this solemn Ani assassination stuff. You know it started just going. I e this is you know just, but at a certain point I felt myself going well. If it's us against, I ran I'm with
us ice. I felt myself sliding into. I didn't. I don't agree with this, but if it's fucking go time, I know where I stand in those like on its fascinating some critical of the whole thing. Yet I can feel these identity in group things being activated. I think it's really important what you just said, though one I talked I talk about at the end of the book, is having identity. My the reason, the think, I think it's really the thing that we have narrowed or understanding of how I dented he works in politics to only groups that have traditionally nothin uplifted powerful. Is it blinds? It are us to it in our selves, but also it binds us to it as a layer on which ethics is always operating at something. It's really important is have identity. Mindfulness wrangling ask yourself what is happening in me right now. What is being triggered in did I want that triggered ordered somebody due to me without me, even noticing that somebody structure a headline or struck
choice such a now. I'm acting as a besieged american house to a vote or others relate a conversation. I think a lot. I remember reporting this was back in the Obama administration with their national security team, and this was shortly after one of the terror related shootings in Europe, and they were talking to me about how they put so much resources into trying to prevent these lone wolf attacks, not because Islam of attacks were at a casualty level. The biggest thing you could possibly imagine number, people dying from traffic accidents with orders in orders of magnitude or cigarettes, Moore S brine uneven one thousandth on the list, but that, if you imagine something like five mass shooter incidents that could be tracked back to islamic terrorism and the kind of a reaction that would create in the american poppy,
mission for escalation, which is exactly the terrace always want by new? I read them always trying to disproportionately get a reaction to what they have done, but if that happened right that feeling that you, how to run salami, would have been, I mean so much bigger right, oh yeah, we have to do so not so. We ended up in the Iraq war, which had nothing to do with nine eleven, which has been some putative way, its cause and so trying to keep that from happening. That kind of identity activation that you can't stop once it gets out of control it's a real political challenge, a lot of politics- and this is something the book is very fundamentally about. A lot of politics is a conspiracy now to activate and in flame and aggravates some of our most intense, till I enter and use them to basically shut down higher hers. Agnes, throwing a little bit too that that specific example talking to the Obama administration by the lone Wolf shooters and trying specifically a mindfully to prevent
It is being labelled as it is Lompoc terrorism right. Yes, there was always spite over whether you call radical islamic extreme that you yeah the whole thing one, because individual things were clearly coming from political groups. But, yes, you didn't want to tribute it village. They were mostly trying to keep his long out of the entire Well, I just say that I am going I ve been in. I remember you not talking with my wife it at the time I was just like I, I can empathize but the right going. How are we gonna do keep an enemy that you're pretending, isn't an enemy like you're, not even get a label it. What it is which is right, a cold jihadis like if you're not willing to even say that I don't feel safe now cause you're, not even labeling the enemy in that We feel scared now when I see their goal. That also makes perfect sense and it is an unfortunate
Yeah situation of these choices are just bad or bad. Yes, but with the islamic extremism thing what they're trying to do even separate late, which I was, I was a really important thing. Is it this same identity question? It operates in the other direction to Islam is a very big religion. Delia million be all on a baby, more odd, another number off hand, but its huge, its birth and the second was puppet region and in the world. You do not want every member of that religion to listen to the american president and feel that what has been said is it we are in a war against them right and by the way, a lot of the we in America. Are Muslims I agree that most bad decision start with fear, so assizes start with fierce you're trying to sever what the terrorists actually wanted to do
which is make their brand of radical jihadism, is somehow conflated with Islam right and say that you need to stand behind us because we are fighting for you like when there was Wendy was a cut. Those people in the same way that I'm like their shootings like all over this country. All the time- and we don't want to weed out- want to blow it up into something where it's all of a certain kind of people get yeah. I just wonder, is: is room for them to come out and kind of explain in a presidential address what people seem to watch like what the goal of terrorism is, that they're trying to bade us into some lopsided response organ to spend three trillion dollars in that that's the plan, and we can't do you want to defeat them. That involves not playing into that plan. I don't know This is not the detailed I want to answer, but my that I just had this thing happening had run like one of my rules is that whenever somebody says why don't they say this thing in a speech they always have said it, and we in the precedent.
Nobody does what presidential speeches they don't know they watch at the state of the union, sometimes, and mainly the people who too, in our very polarized right thinking on enclosure into it and then but the rest of em right. I remember one thing: Donald Trump. the stance is how to get covered any covered by being outrageous. But the problem is most president's. They don't wanna, be outrageous what they want to be a sober right. They want to wanna keep the temperature down for other reasons- were talking about the one they do- that nobody Carson. yes boreal. It's boring, but we had this debate that we had in fact check a long time ago, and when I end- and I was saying we- you can't say Islamic Stream is and then I'd say: white guys, schools, Somehow I mean if you want to make everything about the very specific then that's a choice, but you can't pick asks in keeping with the minority identity politics rang. Were you hear that
so much louder, but no one's taking into consideration all the other identities that are available data with these other I think the challenge of it is in its the limitation of humans, empathy, which is most those whites shooters, look in group to Americans like now. If they all our top hat, you could really easily isolates. I got these top hat guys animal. What the fuck is going on in a right, that's gotta, pagan challenge. I agree, I agree, but against it falls in my all these? What you're saying this is some identity awareness, which is it Why are you too? Have some awareness of what you're in group is? What an out group is. Why were you know what, were drawn to members of our Ingrid and what not just some acknowledgement of that is is kind of Asia. The control, but I wanna talk as it's in your book. This is,
or of a new phenomena. The demographics of the parties is changed drastically right there, the big story, the big macro story of the book, but I would argue of american politics- is that over the past fifty years we ve had this convergence of a bunch of identities around our political entity. So one of the things it is misleading about all tax is that we ve had the same names for the political parties for a long time. This is influenced my described very different things. If you go back to the fifties, Sixties America's functionally a for party political system. We have Democrats as we think about them. Now say he were Humphrey. We have Dixie crafts who operate in the Democratic Party, but they are a conservative, southern and function and racist block, so strong Thurman was the second most conservative member of the USA. In it he was a democrat at that time they later became republican he's whole thing was protecting white supremacy in the south, but he was a Democrat
He voted as a democratic vote for the democratic majority leader leave. Liberal Republicans in the northeast startling. Actually, liberal Republicans, George Romney met Romney's father, so very liberal, governor much more liberal and a lot of shoulda Rosen today and Romany was quite liberal and in Macedonia are these very moderate, and then you had conservative Republicans as well, and the thing that that gets at and is that the parties also were not very split by eighty ology, and I had a ton of courts in the book of people like Richard,
in our if K Richard Nixon was mph? Did he clearly agree a phd almost creates, or at least proposes a universal health care system hotspot doing a universal basic income? At one point, there is a lot of his domestic policy that is very, very liberal even by today's standards, and so in addition to that, you have a lot of african american Republicans right. The republican Party is a party of Lincoln. I am part of what the Dixie Crafts Republicans at the party that invaded the American South you have. There is actually not that big spittle long religion, geography, doesn't split the parties and then over the past fifty years and raises a thing that ends up changing this right. The civil rights of the Democratic Party becomes more. The party racial equality in the Republican Party becomes more of a party of white backlash to that. As that changes to the Dixie Crafts become Republicans. Another Publican party is the conservative party that I'm credit party, Isabel Liberal Party. Everything else begins to shift to so now there
got a party. I think this is a measure of voting and twenty. Sixteen by figures, forty four percent non white, their problem parties more than ninety percent white, really quick glasses. I wanna get people second Digest that that's what it is now that we are now working parties, nine percent, why? More than and democratic parties about half non white here that some that's profound, and that is true religion. So thereupon, parties overwhelmingly a christian Party, the single largest group in the democratic parties religiously on affiliated Non, but also take the Democratic Party of Liberal Christians, booed his Muslims, atheists, agnostics, but leave you go back to say the ninety, democratic party platform and you look at the immigration plank everything Donald Trump. Today I mean things from very different ideas of density is another one. It used to be that how dense area. Was city world didn t much about its politics. There is no city in America that is denser the nine hundred people per square mile. Now his republican language. You get over a certain density level, no place in America votes.
What can we do? Have an armchair Syrian? Why that is on the eye is actually great peace on this. The people look it up. By name Will Wilkins had called the density divide and basically, the argument is that people are attracted to it is for or rural areas, for psychological reasons. If your person who likes lotta change Tom, old alot of muscle, yeah, you like lotta diversity around you on what psychologists call you a John height on here, I'm openness to experience which correlate with liberalism. You go to cities. If you want more tradition, things to move it slower to be connected to like big family networks, you tend to be in there is no catch the conservatism into so that makes a ton assent, but I would also imagine as well if you are living in a city of a million people you're overly aware of that we are a big mass of people and there is a collective and that you're gonna deal with all these people. As you walked out,
three in everything it is gonna heightened your sense of community. I have to imagine verses living on a hundred acres farm and you pretty much see your wife all day and then that's that I can see why You are more aware of the individual's rights at that point. Decision does not immersed in adding that. We re all these things are very. They connect to each other and very complicated ways when what comes first are. Psychology is our politics. actually up super hard questions shower? I don't have a good way to answering, but what basically ends up happening is it all of these things are very powerful identities like. Where do I live? What is my skin color? What is my religion? How much money do I make? What is my eighty Jake, culture. Do I consume. There is a New York Times sing a couple years ago that showed how popular different television shows were among different by political groups and dynasty? Oh yeah, you wanta. Unbelievably conservative sure, where a lot of the show is it like
I like good you ice good place. Prime madman is pretty thing in it. It connects among liberals, and so all these things and creating what the political scientist Liliana Mason calls Mega identities and its super interesting here. So one of the arguments here is that we like to think politics is about policy and its very heavily about identity and went away. She shows that, isn't there a lot of people? Lord Democrats, but if you ask me about policy closer to the Republicans, none of the Republicans Vyazma policy there closer to Democrats now how much is being close to the other side and policy restrain your hatred of the other side. It helps somewhat. But if you have a bunch of identities, the connect to the other side, if you're a Democrat, but you are in a right, a white rural area, your in either local Christian, that will do a lot more to restrain your enmity towards Republicans than simply be green with them on policy you NEO, liberal,
everything else, but if your identities connect ya, then you're gonna be com or about what will happen if the other side wins power, and so, as has happened, it's created this real feeling of threat from the other. Furthermore, different than us, because, as you are saying saying earlier, we are as a species hell lot more finely tuned to in group our group, then what do I think should happen? with healthcare now that our who the fuck really on when the politics are happening in your high order cognition you gotta, do some work there. Yet it's like they don't look like me or feel like me or talk of me and how things are Unlike me, the big thing, I don't feel they like meat, which is a problem that drives a lot of political conflict, stay tuned arms, if you dare
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that c, b, D, M d, dot com, promo Code Dax for twenty five percent of your purchase of superior, see MIDI oil products from sea beady empty. well Let me hit you at this and you can way and as this is kind of a long standing debate with monica- and I know it- I actually want to get in the middle of the day. Only at my side, I general ay, I don't love. That people are using their political opinions as a cornerstone of their identity. I think what do I think people are what they do, not what that, what theories they subscribe to in general, I just don't feel like it's the mole yet ninety percent year threaten conversations- are about this and that's troubling. To me and Monica points out, which is good, which is the stakes, are quite high. There's kids at the border in cages, really doing other than voting every two years. You know even of yours.
duper civically, engage you're still talking about maybe eight activities over the course of four years yet Eighty percent of your thought in conversations are about this. That's troubling to me and Monica points out, which is good, which is the stakes, are quite high. There's kids at the border in cages, but to me seems to always be the counter argument to me going. We don't need to talk about this all the time and yes, this stakes are high, but I don't think that requires all of us to talk about it. Non, stop and fight about it, non, stop and think about it. So I go vote for the person who wants to get rid of cage well yeah, but in order to know who your voting for you have to have conversations, I mean I don't think we should be talking about it all the time, but I don't think we should not be talking about it. I mean these are things happening in the world and I mean generally, I agree that we should be making our party our identity, but currently it feels like were at
extremes that make it important to talk about it and figure out who doesn't want kids. In case who does what kids in ages, because if you do want gives in cages, maybe I don't, really want to be hanging out with you and like that. I'd only like saying that out loud and that's the truth, I don't you know that I want to be. You know at coffee, or choosing to spend my limited time with someone who's for that, and also I'm. I disagree with you that convincing as impasse right now, I think conversation respectful conversation can lead to an opening of ideas and thoughts and
I don't know, I'm not as pessimistic in that way saw Ezra. Those were the two sides. What are your thoughts? I choose so topic, so one the most important fact about identities. Is it there? Plural, we have a lot of them and they activate when threatened when intrigues. When talked about when the fact that you and I could relate as dads and you I could, in another context, argue from different political perspective, adventure or you, and I could argue, as you know, people who, like different sports teams, those facts aren't contradictory about each other. It's about what is at the forefront when so, that's, I think, a genuinely important thing about identity, the people and give enough credence to the other thing, though you guys both actually super interesting points about how Paulie actually works a one month ago. What you're saying I think people underestimated
we persuasion is not impossible, but it happens in the context of people feeling with there in the circle. Together, it happens in the context of not just respectful exchange of ideas that gets you somewhere, but it's pretty imported. The people feel they share identity, so actually you're trying to convince somebody of something if you any comments, and that there should be kept in cages which there should not kids in a just her ass, I am, I am occasionally deserve to be in a case like if you're talking to somebody who thinks well look immigration like we have these people who are streaming over the border and you know they're doing it illegally, which is actually not true, they're, coming legally in asking for refugee status. But nevertheless, if you say look, that's a straight bigotry and your dehumanizing, these people and cruelty these children, you're not gonna, get very far buddy. I look like think about this.
Father, like that's so trying to choose and actually being conscious of which identity are operating in and calling forth and other people now is having a pointer for persuade legacy. Employment need connecting go hey. We have the shared identity in our group, and I want to talk about this and the other thing that you bring up is- and this is an argument against interest for me as somebody who is a puzzle journalist. Unlike we give way too much of our attention to national politics against state and local and national markets is highly polarized at the way. The identities work is often very difficult for persuasion and said around like being on twitter. Being pissed off is bad. It's what the flick of site is it on her? She has a new book out out, which I think is worth the reading and thinking about very hard because of political hobbyist, there's a very big difference between practicing politics in a way that's trying to make the world better and
being engaged in politics as a hobby, and so it's really different being out in your community working on making housing more affordable or supporting a candidate or you know, being part of even the local pda, which is in its way very political act. Right, you're, part of a civic structure, your community and being on twitter tweeting things that are basically saying- and I says as somebody on Twitter saying, like I'm good in the people, disagree with a bad news and I'm not even think shouldn't. Do that fair enough? Fine but dont confuse what you're doing therewith actually practice politics that might run lying with people who agree with, I think a dinner party about about Trump is you're, not doing anything. Political
there. I didn't, I think most people are Hobbes and they think they're somehow holding position so that one of the things that really argue that, I think, is an actionable thing for individual. They got all my systemic things and getting rid of the filibuster and multi party democracy, and we can talk about it all, but at an individual level like, I really urge people to try to consciously rebuild state and local political identities. That try to make more of your consumption of news state and local political news, I didn't know what is happening tag. How many people is listening to. This can name can probably name your senator of your state, Mckinney Native State, senator mining in your state representative. No city council person, but they would meet with you. I mean that,
kill them with you ever Letty here that we should all thing and he's really impressive guy. I fell sewing Ellie. I am he spent aspect, but the point is that one of the things it is heavily polarize politics is one of the restraints on help poorer as politics, God at other points in american political history, was how much of our politics tends to be rooted in place. You represent states, not just parties and districts, not just parties, and so you would have situations where gallic you're a publican from Oklahoma and that's a democratic bill. But their willing to give you like help to rebuild a bridge in your district. While I like being from Oklahoma matters more than being republican TAT, what we got rid of earmarks, we think of that kind of thing, is dirty transactional ism, unlike that's, made politics much more polarized made a much harder to find compromise in part of it is because some media has nationalize, so many states, local media has folded and we ve lost what used to be these very powerful state and local political identity,
yeah you're, so right, because if you talk to your average Angelina at this point, whether they were on the left or right, I think a hundred percent of us are like. Oh, we have a major homeless crisis really transcends any party s like there's, no one on the left or right, that's like oh! This is working. This is crazy sphere too. You know me sustainable. It's like you know, and there is a great again What's like something, that's it in your backyard. In that year seen regularly, you can easily bond with someone and allay so garcetti and an ally and take full credit here and I'm some from Orange Canna Carpeting Elite homesick times. I care a lot about only politics. You know my family's involved in it allay passed a proposition to create a lot more money, talk on homelessness problem and I can't get the shelters in housing built because people who in every other contacts will have these signs in their window? That everybody is welcome here and let nobody is illegal, do not want the shelter
you were near their home. My girl, NIMBY Ism, insulate a lot less action, even having got in money for it, then they should of live a little bigger. Setting about this could cover this issue a bit, and that's the kind of thing were making that better, like that's, really practicing politics, yeah yeah, well, yeah Dan Savage only talk to him. He made a great point that just the entire system here in California is to basically promote. No expansion. did their doors so anti building's height regulations. All these different things to prevent the all these areas from getting built up. When you know that's a huge aspect of the problem. Is that there's just an inventory issue? If you, if you are in the body where people cannot afford a house like you,
Think of yourself is progressive. You are failing you re. Progressive ISM cannot make it possible for people to afford a place to live and be able to get from point a to point b in a reasonable fashion. I think the failure of California High Speed rail, which came for at least some of the reasons we ve been talking about how hard it was to build a straight line such I think, it's one of the great failures of progressive governance of our age justice, like company, can get around again get a house signal not working yeah, now again to bring back to rubber Moses. It's like Kenda stuff get done. I mean people are gonna, have to be displaced. You can't bill anything without displacing some people, and then becomes a simple market answer right, which is: are you going to try to reimburse all the owners in Beverly Hills for their houses? Are you going to, let you know, reimburse the residence in South central and then you have? insane market force? That's you know, so I dont know there's no appetite
We want to go like ants and it's gonna get gnarly for a minute and then land are you also displacing the people? Beverly Hills is an important question that right awry all Bakersfield. Ah right, that's part of the key like is: is everybody sharing is or some like one of the great and beautiful ideals of the left, which is not always put into practice, but his idea of solid parity right that we are in this together and we are all that we all have to share in both be the winds and the losses, and I think one of the places where people go get their backs up about that kind of building is the idea that the way it plays out in some ways it goes back to the conversation we're having read beginning about power. Is it it sounds a great we're all gonna have to give a little bit, but in fact its people who don't have the power to organise at the City Council who end up giving, and so the question is: how can you make that equitable? And that is something that requires those liberals who around that dinner table with you like talking about Donald
dump actually throw it on. Do you think if we were taking from Bakersfield and taken from Beverly Hills, some equality really started getting put into place? Do think we lose a bunch of Democrats like truly Oda. like a bunch of lithuanian starts right. Yeah of politics is hard One of the things that I always. I think that there is hard problems do not always have good answers. I think it's something to appreciate about the world that its there's an old max labour quote that politics is a slow boring. hard boards and that to be really involved in it in a deep way over long periods of time. You have to be open to getting a bit at a time, and it often fields, but I think all the time about how bad the affordable correct fell to people when it pass re. This was the single largest expansion of health insurance. Since the great society since Lyndon Johnson, it was more than any other.
President had been able to do, but it was gruelling and grinding and the public option got traded away and the deductibles were too high in the premium socked and There's a lot wrong. I mean I covered it. There's a lot! You don't want! You have to build on it, but the problem in our system, with a fellow buster divided government, all the rest of it, is it even if you win, it feels a bit yeah, and you really have to be connected to the fact that you're making people's lives better and not be overly attached to the symbolic levels of politics to even just be able to remain attached to it through that. But people want people want sort of glorious. victory in politics and you almost never get it also. There seems to be like no tolerance for growing pains to your point again need to start with that. Affordable health care act and then you got improvement, brewing proven its going to fuck, who knows maybe of took in twenty years, but you know you gotta. You have to start I just feel like everyone's now expecting things. To start perfect, I dont know if we
rewired caused by God when they do release a new product. It is perfect. The Amal sparring in a more than products ever were perfect. I just we have now in expectation of that or something I think social media probably has an impact on the level of a media, see that we are accustomed to having at all times senior year. Attentions bans are so tiny gunning, William Davies, who knows what book called nervous states as reading an interview them and others? I read this line, I loved it. He says it will seize the opportunity of promise immediate actionable liberalism only offers mediated action, be a law, political representatives, editorial peer review and so on, and all this comes to be experienced. as intolerably, slow and self interested in the age of the platform I miss you got that yeah alot of how we ve improve society is slow and its hard work in its generational, and we want it to happen now because, like shouldn't, we be. Will the download the apt to make everything better rights exactly a year old,
back in about private versus public it was his interesting that year. Your experience with journal list I felt like, was channels as I started out as a blogger. That's how I and all of this in one of the nice things about blogging alley said that time with you the throw bad ideas up against the wall, and the idea was that blogging was at the beginning of the conversation. Then I'll be in your comments will be like that's wrong or other people write a blog posts and teach you and openly with some good faith like all that party good, but this part, but now what will happen is it it had context rain peopled, some context for you and but now what happens is p a screenshot, something somebody said written out of context, send it to and a group of people who are now we're going to know what the person originally meant or never hear the the after thoughts or it's very hard to learn a public anything
one reason. A lot of people across a bunch of professions. Amene in yours and mine have moved to Pont casting because it still, I still feel some capacity to be wrong in public in union casting, as I often have a purpose gas, because I any cause to this other than not many. People are learning real time and that's what I want to be in it the apple of like it's fine, the learn real time. Yes, it's important, You have been wrong on here a thousand times. I've had, in the last two years of change, complete positions on things and yeah, I almost feel like I don't feel any cause to this other than not many for learning real time and that's what I want to be an example of like it's fine, the learn real time. Yes and its impact to me. This is a place where I do not like. I really wish we had called cancel culture, criticism, culture,
Are we able very rarely actually get consulted? Not has never happened right, but we do have. Is a culture, I think, of full gracious criticism and that's very hard for people to bear, and I think that there is a pressure to say around some of these controversial topic it's all wrong or it's all right and a lot of ideas. It or you know maybe seventy percent wrong. Eighty per cent writer seventy percent right in there percent wrong, I think about that allowed in that debate, where I do think people were afraid. Certainly, on social media to be a little bit wrong in public does mean the fear that they will be cancelled and driven out of society forever. Most people don't do that in plenty. The ones who price should and at making great livings has provocateurs and controversy artists now, but for like normal, decent people, the fear, of just being attacked, which is something that human beings do not like is very real, and I think that
You mentioned in your own earlier this philosopher and I did a pike us who has as its second my head fervour she's a Harvard philosopher and political theorists, intoxicated but democracy, and she talks about democracy. She says always require sacrificed if its working, we are often giving up a. I'll bet for other people to get more, and then they have to give something up for us to get more and on and on, and she said The only way that works over the long term is if we approach each other with an ethic of political friendship. I think a lot about our you embodying, or violating an ethic of political friendship. Well, I think Ruth Ginsburg as the ultimate example of this. The fact that one of his leg, with better get along just gonna Saint James, like best friends, was ass, golly and now is says she likes. Cavanaugh like yours a woman who can be all thing. She can be a warrior for the laughed and she can be a human who likes people in I just I finders, usually worry on all in the antidote to a lot of what is going on.
Oh, but you said, I won't get the cooperate but you're talking about in a major policy and then finding your way to journalism. In saying that, in your mind, the fourth estate is, powerful as any branch of the government, basically in shaping the world, and I think that is incredibly true- and I have to imagine in the current climate, there is at least an attempt to erode the trust in that fourth estate and what price we would pay if people stopped believing in its utility, send to somebody already have so I have a big media chapter in the book and I think about this question a lot and I do think to be self critical in the media for a minute. One of the great mistakes we made is to pretend, both externally and internally, that we are simply a mirror held up to the world part two,
choosing what to cover. We changed the world if we give Donald Trump round the clock coverage as we did in twenty sixteen way before the poles merited the amount he got, we help Donald Trump get elected live. We spend all our common Hillary Clinton Emil's, we you know- and you and you can take us in a lot of different directions by urban- is gonna, have in view of what is newsworthy and and and what the media should cover. But a real problem, I think, is that we do not want to admit that we are as powerful an actor as we are because to do so would violate the self section of us as an objective mirror. The mere is in an act of the mirrors reflects what comes in front of it, but as we are talking about earlier, we don't cover most things. The president says, including Donald Trump, by the recovery. The outrages things Donald Trump says. I remember back in the bush, no bomb administrations, how much it would beg coverage of they would have his careful speeches on manufacturing policy, but they are staging a higher, still
well that had been like taken back from China likely in nobody cared wiping? The thing we would all like you guys to acknowledge is that yours susceptible to market forces as anyone else. You will like this chapter of the book, then let me say like we are right it's all about it's all about it. A lot about, like I think people get a little too. I mean come on it's a lot about it can be about, but I think that people can get a little too. It's all. I think this is another. Now we air. If I live with tabloid coverage of me, I might feel differently. I'm looking up here with data and seventy two percent said no. It appears I might have been like Trump, though, like seven, it look like when two percent would say no, but in practice really fifty percent only that I feel are vital in your favour. You want in the electoral at all times, and so in the media of spoke. I tell the story of how the media is, among other things, businessmen,
tourists changed from being reliant at the television and newspaper and even to subdue radio levels. El on monopolies, right booming three network seizing public airwaves newspaper. As you know, there was the allay times of the new, and you didn't have access to everything constantly one of the reasons headlines gets so apt up now. Is there in this war of attention of all? stall. You know you're competing with the New York Times and the allay pines and the Washington Post and like LE monde in France, but also with everything it's worth illustrate for folks that were born in the nineties, that in
it is your walked outside and you might ahead your choice between the Detroit Free Press in the Detroit NEWS. There was your cause, as I read the allay time. Ellison a case, your daddy, but I couldn't listen to pod, save America and we have the New York Times. Go onto Drudge report yell and all these this his things you adapt crazy. How new it is you are impeding. We are, on the one hand, trying to adjust to it, but also it it. It does force a kind of intentional one upmanship from us, and so one of the real go out of business. Thirty would like of his act. No one wants stood moment, and so one of the things so that I do think that demands of us differently than it used to. I dont think that what is changed is it. We were just a true
Bureau of the world before and we're not. Now I mean I have a lot of critiques about how media works in that age, but one thing that has changed is it: the media then was based on having a captured audience that they had to not offend. If your monopoly, you, what you want, is it everybody who might go to a department store in Detroit will be the newspaper, because that is how the business works. I think the media had a very hard time, sometimes telling the truth, because they're worried at the was offensive to somebody grants for that had its own set of problems, the media barretta in practice that almost lead to what a compromise would have been. I think I think of something to that again for the earth and persons kind of compromise re write that media could ignore. I'm? U wanna things I say in the book is at a lot of people are, as domestic in the twentieth century relied on suppressing conflict and sometimes that's good, but like we permitted the south three May.
in like a segregated horse over a very long time, southern Democrats block and I lynching laws in the media. Oftentimes bottle lotta things up needed to come out here now. The flip side is it. We do not have a system where we're good at risk. When comic our systems. Where were you when power than you can govern our system? It doesn't work that way, awry redecorate, some other problems anyway, but on the media point we have to admit and take responsibility for it Ro we play in the world, and that means I think, defining what news worthiness means to us so that it can be hijacked by people just being outrageous offensive. Whatever people understand, what we really cover in some ways better than we even do ourselves will make him and maybe I'm wrong, but I have to imagine when they were at these monolist these media companies, what they were probably doing to not offend or get rid of customers was just lopping off the the farthest five percent of the spectrum in the farthest right, five persons spectrum- you, I think they were probably de amplify
I'm the fringes of both parties. I think that's not quite right. Some of this stuff you find in that period is one. The media was why, aid to friendly to power is one of the ways you can keep people from being offended and certainly keep anybody from turning on you is it or whoever is in power kind of like commands. Some amount public allegiance, the media was one to open tone, the narrative of people already and power and gather version. This is narratives of already dominant majority,
right, that's again away sort of his identity. Legal status called guides very status quo feels like it just completely one. Eighty and now the furthest, five percent on yellow parties are driving all the dialogue in it. To me, that's my biggest sense of frustration as I have to believe that still the majority the country is semi centrist. I really just believe that it's not that it's centrist exactly, but it's also not this, and one of the problems here is the great hack in the media. Is it ever everybody's already talking about something will than isn't it newsworthy by definitions? happened. Is that the way social media works? Is it selects for communication that creates the most intense emotional response? usually the not always a negative emotional response, yeah as it in the media, is attaching itself to the stories you create the most intense negative response. One of the examples are used in the book. Is you guys remember the furore over the coming ten catholic high school kids on the national mall.
Oh, yes, yes, these kids came out. They were in some sort of nonviolent but insulting confrontation. The native american rainy. When I make America had yeah you, then it came out there like. Maybe they ve been harassed earlier anyway, it was Ike. I came back from offline vacation and like this was the only thing anybody's talk about and it actively objective. We did it matter rugby, rightly, died every other story happening in the was more important, but it had attached to people's identities very intensively right young kids that are religious high school. Maggie, how to native American an elder drumming a political protest and second Disney cartoons like so perfectly archetypes and that's bad right. We let Twitter become an assignment in that way is really bad. The other thing we did was we would both sides stories were sometimes there was truth right. Like the famous example that we used to do, a lot is well climate change. Some people think it's real. This.
we are now does not like Mama sides. Who can who can debate, and you know, is people appoint out. It was like a ninety percent if a consensus, and so the other problem is it in trying to be an offensive. We would sometimes be untrue sometimes now in trying to get a pension, we'll be untrue. It's not that we like fixed all of our problems. It is that we have moved into a system with different problems that I don't think we ve come up with good answers for yeah yeah, yeah, ok, Furthermore, I just enjoy talking you, I now going to throw them out there and I'm gonna run around whatever I'm gonna represent a question. I bring it to you because I'm not sure where an add on I'm still in the incubation face, but when I- originally heard. First, not let me start at the beginning. I think everyone please that automation going to increase dramatically over time and there's this great fear of that. Ultimately, I think, you ve all Harare, calls it the some clue, ass. I forget the name you gave it, but the people will be lost
the unemployed. Right in that automation. We do in eighty percent of the jobs- and this is all I had for us- and so Andrew Yang. Famously now has a standard universe. When you come right, basic universal income, and when I first heard that I like well, that's good. idea because I see the ready on the wall there correct in then I start with that premise and then I can. I watch a lot of historical stuff, so I was in Chris and I are watching tv and I'm like they thought that with steam power they thaw that when the steam shovel came around so many people employed in this manual, labor is gonna, get rid of the workforce, it that did not come to pass The assembly line got rid of a drastic amount of employees that didn't come to pass the computer revolution in the nineties. That was gonna happen. We have three point: nine unemployment rate or something around there. That's the lowest since the sixties. Pardon me
The universal basic income is just completely defeatist in something we kind of succumb to on the left in that were a little bit just cowardly like It just assumes that, like somehow we won't figured out like we always have like now's the time we decided now is the time to say no were giving up She just our pain people so lacking, because my wife literally wrote the book on this. people. Money Andrew Yang, recommends it as his favorite book on universities. So I'm at the centre of a lot of you earn near a lotta universal basic income talk, and let me agree with seventy five. Percent of what you said and then diverged in one part, so the question of a eyes really interesting, really complicated one. I think in the mirror term- and I'm talking here twenty five fifty years and I've enough work on this to feel reasonably coffin. This I do not think we are facing the automation apocalypse. I just don't ride. You made the point about unemployment number,
but the other number I would bring in years productivity. So protein is who puzzlement we'll ideas with the same amount of people in the economy and productivity? Is the driver of increases in human welfare and of what we were seeing even over this paper talking about is ice is a sharp rise in automation, a sharp rise in robots, doing jobs at future to take human. So we can do more stuff with fewer people what you would be seen as a sharp rise in productivity numbers. What we have seen is a false productivity growth and that's a huge problem in our economy, but in some ways the problem in our economies that we are not being enough robots at least fast enough now, Andrew or SAM or above all or others, will tell you will look. It may not have happened yet, but that doesn't mean it won't be right. I think the point you make is really well taken Ike and I agree With- and I've actually had this debate with. You all know her my pipe guest witches human beings are good at nothing, so much as they are inventing things
to do value in itself. I used to be that I dont have this number at the top of my head, but I want to say something about. Forty percent of Americans were employed in some way: agricultural labour. Now I think it's less than two percent, but we create more agricultural product than we ever did before, and our history certainly than we did, then I just want to know is weighed down, but I do want to add for people who don't know our manufacturing. That's another allusion blarney. Where are those? Actually we manufacture more stuff? We just do with far less Peter, so it's not a committee the argument to say we ve lost Oliver Manufactory actually have, and we will in fact many of us. As you say, we manufacture more. We do not have a lower employment rate than we have at these other times. In fact, we ve created other jobs. It didn't exist in those times and primarily service sector job
care jobs mean we now. I think the numbers we have more yoga instructors and we have call minors. We don't talk about that, but it's actually chunk of the actually have a job to asking and what you Paul says and a place I actually to disagree with him. Is it people will become sort of irrelevant, you're gonna, this useless class he useless glass, that's what it is not. I think untrue that for such that some people, as has been for many points and in history, you will have people underemployed, don't feel like they have dignity in the city and its huge, genuine, real problem, but I dont think were at a world. Words can be twenty are fifty percent, and so, We have already attached a lot more value in our society to jobs that I think, would look completely bizarre and useless to people from another age like made real things with their hands. If you told people how much us, asylum, cachet management, consultants and lawyers and fry frequency traders have, it will look strange, but we did that
he attach status to jobs by giving them money is more what we do in our society for sometimes for better and oftentimes. For worse I don't see any reason to think we're going to stop being able to invent jobs in a reason we need on some level. I'm super sorry yoga teachers, I'm about to weigh in on your behalf, but you could go on Youtube. watch yoga. That way. Now people don't do that. Could actually like being involved with human beings? I just don't think that's going way. That said all that said, I think the worst case for you be. I is the automation case in park. Is it's not and then import, even if it is true right, even if I'm wrong, but everything I just said. Let's say: let's use of the near term case that we are going to get self driving truck. So all the Teamsters who drive truck which is one of those common jobs in Amerika America be out of work. Andrew Yang is offering then- and I and I said somebody I've known Andrew a long time- I think He'S- I think it's great actually suffering on the thousand bucks a month when they Seventy five thousand dollar your job full benefits of second to do it by colleagues. Matthews has great line great line on this says that you be. I
the solution. Automation is simultaneously too much and too little it gives money to people who are not automated away and gives too little money, but who are getting automated away to all said. I become more and more friendly to the idea of it to the arguments. For you be I as a utopian policy, which is to say, if you think that maybe the way we have struck. Did our idea of society is just serve wrong, but maybe you shouldn't have to work a job you dont like have enough money to buy bread or you want to make sure. I'm going other things that a lot of the work that we do is uncompensated right: people caring for children for their parents. We don't pay you for that. Maybe on Sunday at least you guys would create a floor. I could very much imagine an argument and have people made these like Rucker Bregman, but
so my wife, any lowries book has some of this in at least like limbs these arguments and looks at them, but the reason up before or against you be. I is it. You think that the ability to live above the poverty line should be uncovered from whether not your working. I think that has become a rich society. I m very friendly that I think the big question for it is: what does it do to immigration? policy and like how do you think about that? Those two interacting I care lot about immigration. Rather, when people arrive, they start getting the yeah yeah how'd. You do that and does it here so that their hard questions in how you do that? Hey you pay for those are all real things, but I think the worst case for you be, I is a fear based automation case in the best case Phoebe. I is it you know maybe You just say that it's actually, okay, if you don't want to do paid labour, if you want to do art or care furrier children or whatever it is, and we should make more possible thing for people to do and had a societal Florence societies rich as ours is.
That's gonna! Where I come down on you be. I was yet a net out. The money, but you know in theory, overtime, you could just stand. Well, I appreciate getting your perspective on there in all your perspectives and has been a damn pleasure to sit with you and why we're polarized comes out one January twenty age, everybody ached, and I think that it must go I'm saying you you desire, like I do, a less polarize society is or air desire, a country that is more governor ble emits conditions are polarization This is also a way to think about that. Ok, I think I can be very hard to de polarized, but we can make it possible for governance to work better. Even in these conditions- and I think we should at least think of that is an interim measure. The idea right, ok, we'll Ezra. What a pleasure I hope you'll come back when next time you write a book or whatever else your peddling I'll be happy to help cell with you. Thank you, but that a month and now my favorite part to show the fact checked with my soul, mate amateur Batman
I love your white slacks. Why? Thank you? You know what I like about. This makes the brown skin pop. It makes a real poppy, the calves are exposed and it just a beautiful caramel. There were all in the very generous cause, they're very Asher. I always think they know they are. We really are and their Canada blending into the white pants that has using that the white answer make em ash pop deriving the should, I think it's making the melanin palm wow well, thank you now? What color those shoes? Would you call these? Oh, my god. no region ruled out were before
others say: punkin, TAN. Ok, I'd go with a bit of peach in your right and company law pitch peachy. Ok right! Why just one the letter, we were no sensors, no orders from the fact check what their mission- I guess not a nice thing to do like. Oh what we want speed or today offer more great. Now I don't see it and argue oil make sure we take a picture. I would love to take a picture of Lobby Robin Speedo Next FACTS aggregates, though well when they begin said it, and that means he has to date set it on air. Are you gonna prep, your dog at all, while belongs one of how to do this under scenes and shows and movies? I you know I want to be. I want to show up. I want from abbess foot forward So how do you do you use
makin around all the talk on it destroyed. Wake up. Basically, right: hey we're on camera bud. I see her at attention at attention Norwalk lobby web through that, before the pictures I feel like. that's a sexual harassment, sweetly Albania as apply here or a small deepening, I'm so where we got to have him on. He has been on my list for quite a while. I think, since we heard him answer I'm here I would like to talk about a guy. He was a good we're sorry for SAM. He was also also what it was specifically I loved about. Is that I'd say as rose as well as well as normally Intel Jenner, analytically, intelligent he's, a very emotional intelligence, so as funding here, because I think most people argue with salmon. I certainly would do this too. Is you can't just leave emotional aspect out of the conversation and he was very much infusing. The debate with emotional.
Yeah. I got was interest I like that, and I think it's because the emotions are there as important as the science lotta, these conversations are as important as the facts, because it's what drives us, it is more than the fact It is more and more behaviour on this planet is explained by the emotions the person was having prior to enacting behaviour them. Then the science bind lie, think I think so too. So it's kind of hard to have debates Sarah only logic based because there is a whole sector of life that you're just mutating, but it's a factor the agri. So as it is a good job of weaving bow you ever I thank you and I hear hear, so, do you think you're action on but my I q is. We can only hope that its high it's nice, it's it's! It's it's, nor
of one thirty- is what I'm gonna say its north of K. I north, I think it was fairly high, when ever I got tested mouths any baby, a just a one year old saw they too the new analysis. No one years old, sometimes I'm so Monica. I have a tradition of we will text each other movies, but there in a pattern. So you got it. You gotta be to predict what the next one is, so those are many iq test well for a while, we were just doing the same, but then, but then turn into a guessing game. I really enjoyed yeah. I incorporated one that involve like some math. I knows it, so I didn't get it right but I blame you a little bit for any great while only because nor is involved negatives. It wanted to negative numbers, but there's no differentiation on the emerging as you can't like change the color or something you got confused.
by the nomenclature. By like me, adding the negative signs like it wasn't obvious to you. I saying negative apples. Oh, I didn't see any negative signs at all here. I was negative dash, never find it that's what I'll Levin thousand tax later and I append your tax. You can do tat now, my phone, you can pin attacks the top. So just stays there. No matter. How long are you ready Leah, Samsung girl out before I am let alone again to size, ass, honour, I didn't know. You know me and my high horse I'll get on about apple, say. Son came out with cordless charging a long time before Appleton sure I will grant you that they also came out with water resistant phones long before apple did in there, Camera was way better long before apples was great.
Kristen now has a fucking phone that folds and half the screen folds like a piece of paper, and you can you aliens a function of, but as it is marvel? It's it's a scientific breakthrough. It is quite an impressive he's a technology. It is when you have to imagine that was on a billboard with the little apple sign. It would be the talk of the town, a guarantee beyond the news. Every time he saw their big fucking a billion commercials- and am I you know it is the power of Branding Malone little. It is tat so Eric and I were talking last hour working out together and dumb. He brought up the fact that this corona viruses is really whether they contain the virus or not. It is gonna. Have some lasting impact on industry because there's all these regions of China that can't export seventy was saying that there's potentially gonna be some apple supply chain issues. I don't know that's a case on assuming apple. This is what our told me we Eric doesn't now, but I said boy they better not to have the soap
supply chain down so long that people have to look at some other phones, gazillion start realising these other phones are pretty fuckin good. You compare the text, ok, I'm not being paid by Samsung I just ass. He had spent almost a decade. Since I was well than five years respectively, pinning attacks a pretty cool again ass by every time I try to use that phone of her paralyze year. It has the confusing see I feel like listen. I have an apple, I packs a gay and I had I love. I met just love. I merely Kevin emotional racial. Remembering that I know I know I got you immediately. You had an apple, proud of her five minutes in. You grew to actually have a feeling, I think it's my son, endless screen broke. I sat on it in my chair at work and I fucking corrected in the feeling I had. I can only combat
at the time that map resource dog was was nearly drowning in the pool tonight- and I rescued at I felt like I was a little boy- is so good demand everytime, I wanna watch some tv or submit lunch. Its works, it's just works great, unlike in an under my fuckin tutelage, Bravo, oh my parents. What are you gonna are even accidently like poop on our P Bay here are some thing. I'm a little rang record with your sons and You know what maybe just a hopeful, but our p. A girl only seven good track record with girls. I've bad tracker rounds, because the Ipad, my son and so is MAC, is my son. All right, but errands your son and neutral him. Well, I do treat him well, Do you think Aaron's gonna be swinging through here now, just soon
Oh gray, near there's been some life developments and I think we can bring about here and I think it'll be a really wonderful time to interview gray, yeah, I'd love that pragmatic manner Do you wanna tell people that psoric his yah? Ok, so I'm right. One brain I broke up. She got this dog, it's a Brussels grew fawn. It's the cutest. Zog looks just like the dog in as good as it gets. If anyone around was that, I think his name was true Dell in that movie or something or you re. Oh my god. What happened the thing you, why does your memory? I love MAC you'd, maybe the first dog I love his is such a good boy doesn't do one thing wrong he's only there to smile at yours it on your lap, never gets into trouble, really keep away. I really do love him I was sitting on the patio crossed my mind, like but while since I saw MAC, but then I didn't mean or whatever I don't know what a dogs interested in anyways isn't that the embryo
yes and I live by myself in the house. We currently live and I was lying in a hammock IDA. Hammock back when I was a bachelor, my life ruled. I had a colonel in the house and I had a hammock in the back yard, and so I thought I'm gonna go. Look for many years been a minute or so, and then I decided the like look form and then I went in the back yard and I went down to the pool and he was in the deep end of the pool paddling as hard out, and he was trying to get up on. The edge in economies is two tiny, so small and he was very scared. I could see in his little face. He was so scared and I pulled him out and you looking wet me. The scared look in his face in those holding them in putting him and was the moment. I had my first to hear.
Tears fell out of my eyes, and it has been a couple days and hours is staring in his little face new, so grateful that I got there, but he should have a mad at me for, like the sleeping on the job is the last thing I think is the stones gonna go for a deal like you didn't know. Well, I felt heritable and then for the next like two hours, I just stared at him, and he was long using already recovery from it knows that I still wasn't shedding a one or two tears per hour, yeah and then what's fund is that MAC still does vacation at our house. Christian and all her generosity and benevolence has always had a very open door policy with MAC whenever they ve traveled. We a couple months once when they went gang? Australia, such org in all sleep under the covers by your feet and I'm so nervous, he's gonna suffocate down there, but he's just fine. He doesn't need a lot of oxygen. I'll turns out. He probably got tree
in that pool you hurry bright, learns subsist after was further favour. All training- I put him through basic: maybe sealed manacling you right over there? You broke my heart I felt similarly with my bags whose ibexes do anything wrong with bilateral. thing is about whether some deserves some shading us are not allowing one best of happens to me. Am I here, like my ship get store, might you damn right? It should get stolen. I was around school for a long time, and I deserve some karma. The bag doesn't deserve a liquor current. Neither does my packs I'll catch up has as Rousseau we talked a lot about we're just touched on: Katy Hill we were. We are low unclear about how murky her sexual escapade was right. So let me read: I'm leaving
because of a massage earnest, a culture that gleefully consumers. My naked pitchers capitalize on my sexuality and enabled my abusive acts to continue that abuse this time with the entire country watching meant that was her quote Miss Hills cases not clear cut. She was accused of having an affair with her congressional legislative director of violation of house rules put in place in the wake of me to which she has denied, but she did mit having a separate sexual relationship with the staffer on her election campaign, which is not barred by house rules. I know that even a consensual relationship with a subordinate is inappropriate, but I still allowed it to happen. Despite my better judgment, she wrote him a letter to her constituents, but wasn't illegal or anyting. Most people would agree having a sexual relationship with the staff, clearly puts Miss Hale. Thirty, two she's, my age users. In the wrong, though, of course there are many male politicians who have done it and remained in office, but the
and which the affair was exposed. The public, the publication of sensitive photos and tax, which she blamed on her a strange husband, arguably makes her victim as Well So I have zero issue with what she did, yeah that she looked up with people she worked with new. I don't really care about that yeah, but if it were a which is, do it as an exercise. It was a republican man who had some. There's come out of him. The fucking one of his staff Members, a young girl, but he was not me. Reed or anything. I don't think it would go anywhere, Oh, I run me I you know I am asking you, would you not be like he can't do that? Oh I see there is a tiny bit of it they entered happening is on pointing I mean yes and now look when you once a guy, you always predator. moments a woman. You don't do that. I don't do that, does not work
thereby it at all, maybe he'll the Katy he'll issue me. She also not punished. She left off all year, which I don't think she should have yeah so long the case for why don't think she should of. I think it's incumbent upon me too, run through the analysis of what I say the same thing about fuckin who's, the Senate Majority leader than it on Love Mitch, Mcconnell, Mcconnell, fucking, some staffer Do I give him the same? I mean anyway, part of it is and others all these tiny little factors like is the person of age like date. Does that person, want to be in their relationship which in this case I think she did like that. The person and never said yeah an advantage over. Yes, this this and this angle If it's a man and his having sex with somebody works, and that person is
yeah. I want to have sex with that person here then I dont think it be an issue and I dont think I purse if it's like a young man, another person of age- and they both wanna- be doing that. I don't see a problem with that. No, no, that's what you do about it is that I dont a lot of the current reaction, leave a lot of room for simply that both people and FARC and we live in America. If you want to fuck, there's no law so I was you know why people go now the ones but but but whenever there it's a man, it's an abuse of power, low Katy, definitely a power over her her staffers. Would you know she sort of says that she says I know. Even a consensual relationship with the subordinate is inappropriate. She's TAT, owning Matt, but she's, just only men could she has to hear, but in these me to moments they're, not consensual, that the girls are not saying yes or no
was fine, so it in that case it is an abuse of power, is not an abuse of power of the girls are ya want to, and I like that person and I like having sex with the none of them are saying that in these cases I'm sure it's happening ready all the time in a lot of the circumstances. Everyone knows what there in two and they like it and it's fine you're. But yes, your honor. I agree with your honor percent, but there is currently this something that a young adult woman can't possibly be evaluating that if the their male boss has all this power there, there seems to be a little bit of move words like. Would she conic consent? The power dynamic is so lopsided that you can actually believe her saying. It's consensual, which I I dont like. Yeah. I understand that my understand not liking that I dont think in any of these. Like cancelled cases, that's been,
The cast of the one thing I concede that the reason it should be avoided, as so often when people are fucking network and then they stop fucking at work. Now, there's big problems, and only the person whose more valuable to the company is the one that's gonna, whether that storm, so that that is an implicit issue. I think that is very troublesome, like getting enough. Matt Matter Assistant or Matt Lauer, exactly yeah. I have you got into the part with them There is some one on that show you people having an affair. Ah an affair, they're they're having a relationship, De Graf oil, I'm not area whenever they for I also on our low, whether man no no one other area. anyway. There's an example on the on the morning show just what were referring to use an example of what
man is having a relationship with a p o there bring it in secret. Oh yes, yes, yes, yes in she got really offended when he brought up the notion that it was lopsided right, Yes, I'm doing Europe say yeah you're right, like I'm doing you a favor he's like I want to do this, and that in that is an example of something that's going on. That's fine, so that it is sometimes when the headline comes out, we're not prevented that singing and you're not going to read the headline of the kids then show all staff, because why would any even write that will cause people are political enemies or work enemies and they could expose an affair like Monica Lewinsky and Clinton than was now brought out, because Monarch Lewinsky was saying, I feel, scorn range brought out by a republic in grand. Conspiracy, the at him to lie under oath like an answer.
waking. Neither per person was complaining Bray, yet he you know, went down well not for that the unimpeded over, not for an abuse of power of overheard Nov, relying only an oh I'm saying that was in the nineties. When me to wasn't a thing, and so it wasn't like the headline was Bill Clinton actually harasses Monocle Wednesday? That was not ever a headline and Now some people are looking back on man and saying, like ha, he was the present and he was a lantern there, but the reason he was in trouble had nothing to do with his abuse of power. Oh right, right right! Yes, so in the nineties in the nineties, I wasn't a thing so yeah.
As I said that there was a philosopher who main argument that we can have liberty and equality at the same time and he wasn't exactly sure he was getting the name right, Daniela Olenin. Yes, it was her courses right now when the Bell curve come out. Ninety ninety four September of ninety. Ninety, or other weirdly is more recent than I thought it was. I know those Agus Seventies book yeah. I thought it was eighties. to these two. We are better It does seem like the kind of study that will be done in the nineties legacy that being done in the seventies, but not the nineties? I mean It could happen now at a study like that could come out of your not impervious to raise Where was Charles Murray, giving the speech Middlebury College? How many people currently practice Islam? He said he thinks was second most.
Religion in the world. It is, it says in two thousand and ten more than twenty four point, one percent of the world's population is muslim. The current estimate concludes that the number of Muslims in the world is around one point: eight billion Cristiani, first sure per bomb. Yes, third, for me hard. It is hard actually yeah, I'm gonna, say Hindu, isn't so? Ok it is actually a religious affiliation want. very obvious. Official nation tat? Fourth, is Hinduism bow? What's with the herds in religious affiliation This means your religious but you're, not saying why one say: ok or does it mean a narrow ledge, I don't know, but the third is
Hindu, Hindu and then I would go buddhas, yeah, ok and then, after Buddhism, would I go jewish actually folk or religions have, as if I were to Rina Dear, my nine percent are full. Religions was. That means they love Bob Dylan. I don't know but Judy There is only point, two percent sure that's extra we merely low consider too well, we gotta get those numbers up yeah. The hard thing is, you have to be the mom? to be jewish and also the jewish folks, have never bread, Judaism under the sword. The way that the other two religions of the book have in the past, spread by way of the sword, so what they also the M Judaism, likes, keeping
insular like they all want you in third countries debt? We good a key, You don't. I am I their colleagues aid to a not a programme of promotion, but rather of attraction. That's in the by laws, so you can open fuckin promote a even though you do I do. I tell you my experience with ay and then and then, if you think that sounds groovy, the needle appear flags that work in your Judaism, Balkan you're, always boy you're not allowed to be there, for she can everyone's welcome. Can you been eroded
civilian. Well I'll engine room. Look you don't know what it is well known: oh hey! So our bee gee, you says she's best friends with Scully and she likes cabinet. This is what she said about Capita justice Cavanaugh made history by bringing on board and all female law Clark, Ginsburg noted and reference to a promise cabin I made during his tumultuous confirmation things this elections. The court has this term for the first time ever more women than men serving as law clerks, so cream court justice Route, better Ginsburg, came to the defence of a more conservative colleagues on the bench. I can say that my two new as colleagues, bread cabinet and the old Gore such are very decent and very smart individuals. She said Wednesday at an event in Washington DC. Could you the whole thing in doing impersonation over. What does she sound like? I just ask oh really, high voice, a hush very tackling than I have.
strong in time she's a minute your mouse, for she is ok. You said we have a three point: nine unemployment rate unemployment rate is three point: five percent. Three point: five! What you see I was the difference between come loud I and assume a loud. I was a lesser school but yeah yeah, yeah yeah enough, I d sooner. gas some all, except one one? Eighty nine point two or some female teacher yeah yeah to undo it surrender their I knew it. Girls and given girls breaks. Many girls breaks o carrying a ban. Whoa off my goodness right. That's that was it I. He was delightful and he was on bail last week and made a great showing our check it out:
check it out. I love you,