Glennon Doyle is an American author known for her #1 New York Times bestsellers Untamed and Love Warrior and bestseller Carry On, Warrior. Glennon chats with the Armchair Expert about her struggle with addiction, falling in love with a stranger and her realization about forgiveness. Glennon talks about overcoming societal memos and Dax questions if following your personal truth is a realistic goal. They discuss the responsibility of highly sensitive people and why control and love are inherently at odds.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome, welcome while larger expert on deck shepherd I'm sitting next to a very small, powerful miles. Sets me by the name of Monica Pad man. Are you doing here Oh good, while we have a very wonderful guest today, Lenin Doyle Glenn Indo is the author of the number one New York Times best seller untamed, an love warrior as well as the New York Times will serve Carryin warrior she is our mothers in our wives, favorite personalize. She is so much so that we asked Chris. the come join us for this episode, since she pretty much. Does all these books by heart
yes, she read them over and over again, so it's a full house today and we hope you enjoy Glenn in Doyle. We are supported by best feelings. Oh, my goodness. Has there ever been a better time for best fiends. I think that we all need a break now and then, but why not keep your brain act volume relax! That's! Why Monica I love fun, puzzle, games and specifically best fiends. It's an old asus of fun. You can take with you everywhere you go. You know! I don't like what slugs you down now there, the bank. Why now? But there also can acute all workers are cute, even the ones I dont like listen when you need some meantime best. Fiends is a fun escaped from the every day there are thousands of and challenges and tons of cute characters to collect along the way. I love this the most because I can play without wifi access or sell service generally implanted on aeroplanes in lobbies on subways, you name it. You can take it anywhere in a keeps. My brain active, which are absolutely love. It's a unique and exciting puzzle experience, unlike other puzzle, games out their best fiends updates, the game monthly with new levels and events. So it never gets all it's ours, a fun right at your fingertips and you can even play offline with over one hundred million downloads and tons of five star reviews. Best Viens is a must play download, best, Viens free on the apple, app store or Google play. That's friends without the are best fiends he's.
my goodness Glenn, and welcome so thrilled sweaty to be here very well? This is our second attempt at those in almost boiled once again by I'm technology and in this case, but last time you were going to be our guest in Denver and then a force majeure cause you to be ground. did in Florida right I was a tough day tough, It goes in the airport, thirteen hours all then that's at home and it was alive event. Dollars has to be feeling together with lorries but yeah yeah, but we made it through a newer, so kind in so wonderful about it. So thank you for that. Why then assume, probably wrongly. One of my bad habits is lots of projection, but I do assume that, because you- and I are both recovering attics- I feel-
have some sense of what you be going through at the airport in a very powerful, situation, gas yeah there's? No! I don't think even you could know what that day with by I think I may have told you in an email that a woman, actually I was sitting on the floor in the airport, because the whole airport was shut down, so everyone had lost their fight and a woman actually came and sat next to me and said honey are you ok MA said because of my level. Oh yeah I think, as was covering attic and always trying to figure out I am your response a person who just acting responsible now or would they always the responsible person who, just with acting irresponsible when I was drunk all the types of wind things like that happen?
and I'm late to something, or I can't get to something olive, my terror about actually being a bad person can be ass, yeah yeah, that's it at length, I think, is well for you and I like this muscle memory of not showing up for people it's like for me, so linked to the action phase of my life? Then I just don't ever want to revisit it so yeah out. For me, the person pain of missing up. My one do attend, might be a three, but knowing I have let people down is like in eleven for me, yeah, yeah and you have that right, like a people pleasing complex, Let me that I have here yeah and also I was what I wrote you afterwards, because I was so devastated, decanters and others.
Get through this fast, but when my family was going through the divorce and the remaining of Abbey and my kids were and so much pain, and it was called located inside, but with public, and it was alive My kids, you just couldn't talk about things directly, like I put in therapy. I we did all the things that still when I sat down and ask you know how are you feeling it's just? much sometimes they don't know what to say. We were having a hard time talking about things For some reason I entered watch the whole thing, but we sat down with the kids and started watching parenthood from the beginning, somehow through watching the show each night during this like traumatic fire, some of our family afterwards they would start talking. first in that show they dealt with every single freaking thing that any before
they can go through, but an argument was like all in one family: a halt, the story line of ten people and one for Lincoln deplores this in the addiction and all of it, and we started to be able to talk so that became a family therapy. We were able to talk about other things, but sideways do characters raw banned when have turned out to be gay. I was like wholly stop me up with every bit. I was just so if it meant, a lot to me, and so I really was excited. Thank you for that in person that day, but now I can do it. So. Thank you very much. Well. Well, you should know. There's a seventh season. That's read where Christina Rights, three really popular books and goes on speaking time- has never saw the light of day. I think we should tell people what, going on it's a little different than normal. We have extra person on our part,
cast yes, I thought it was appropriate to bring the super fan of yours with us today. The continent that were not begging. Your number one fan happens to be our wife. Yes, if you had bought land and you want to start your call. I guaranteeing Christian would be the very first person to raise your hand honey. Legally without a doubt? I often refer to you as my true north, because I fine, so much comfort in your writing and everything you post on social media and when I'm wandering, which is off and usually just through the big cavernous space. I call my brain. I can find a list but of light through some of what you have written about and I'm very, very grateful. Honey, Did you discover gland was actually give in love warrior by Chelsea Handler who
loves the book. This was probably six or seven years ago. I want to say- and she sent to me and said she wrote in it. Kristen this is a book I read and feel every woman should read. I really believe you'll love it and I did and I was like who is this honest, raw, tiny fire cry? I want to consume more of her ideas because I'm spired by them and then I put did to gobble up pretty much everything you ve ever written. It's very bad. It's amazing to me, I mean, as Kristen knows, since she follows my social media are added, I believe, is that you should always have secret service surrounding you, because you are a national treasure. It should be protected at all costs zau here you to say that is completely anything and am grateful. Well, I will say that when you sort of repeat often that feeling
our feeling. That's why they're there and I feel a lot of feelings and often feel raw and though I'm not an attic, I do feel you, the air stings. My skin and I often like you said, have a problem as an Empath understanding. What are my feelings and what our other people's feelings leg and figuring out what my pain is versus someone else's pain and Just so many things. You say that I feel organise my thoughts. You're, like my thought, organizer like when you said, Someone once asked me why I cry all the time. I told them it's the same reason. I laugh all the time because I'm paying attention I was like I felt like I was gonna explode. I was like yes, yes, yes, that's what I've been feeling yeah. It's been A long journey for me to figure out tat sensitivity. Is It is a bit of a super power. You know even vote in my first book ever I was born broken with an eye
doses sensitively, actually used to think that about myself raising my daughter tests has helped me kind of recalibrate everything I used to think about myself. Started dingy, encouraging purging. I was ten years old that turned into alcoholism and then drug addiction and all the things until I was twenty five and My whole life became in a therapist creation and diagnoses, and then I actually went to her What was a mental hospital, my Mycenaean high school, because there were no eating disorder clinics where we were, and so you know the narrative in my head for ever has been, I'm crazy- I can do their things some Alec. I can write my but might be belief- was I'm crazy in It's hard to trust yourself when you have that these believe about yourself, because you know how can you trust yourself not to sabotage your life in your Emily's life but reason tis. She he is. I imagine a lot like it was when I was ten
She has big freaking feelings, and you guys very hard to raise highly sensitive. Personally, I would have thought being a highly sensitive person that it would be easy for me that it is not easy, she's extremely difficult and amazing and fantastic, watching the way that she reacts to the world as a teacher, the teacher called me recently and said we have a situation at school and I said at that. and she said, yeah, so I may have mentioned the class that the ice- surmounted because of climate change and the polar bears are losing their homes, and she said kids were able to feel sad but soldier on to reset button. she's still sitting on the carpet just asking Questions- the question is where the polar bears moms. Why The grown ups doing anything about this. How old is she was she
on fourteen now? So this was when she says that visa and our whole families life became revolved around polar bears forever. It would just fucking a few weeks later, I just hated polluters. I just wished Oliver's had never been born. You know by the end of the polar bear saga of our family. But when I realized is one night, she went to bed and she said mommy, it's just that the polar bears now nobody cares so soon. It'll, be us I just stared at her and thought- oh, my ok you're not easy to be heartbroken about the polar bears. The rest of us are crazy, not to be broken. About the porters right, we'll figure it out It is like people like us in most cultures in most times for ever for the history of our time. People like us are pointed out their set apart from the child. There are considered to be a little bit eccentric and a little bit but also crucial to the tripe survival because
there, the shaggy man and medicine men and women and the clergy in the poets and artists right there. People who see things that other people can't see and are willing to feel things that other people kept feel. But I think you are Culture were so hell bent on productivity and efficiency and speed that it is easier for us to call those people broken then to consider that their responding appropriately to book and world right. What I have learned about sensitivity and people like us and people like tisch- is that there's like a lot of being a profit in that sensitivity right like we the kind of the people that are standing on the deck of the titanic, yelling iceberg, great and everyone else like we just want to keep dancing so it think it's hard to live as an end path in a sense person, but I try to teach till the time that there's all incredible gets responsibilities that come with it
I remember the first time actually acknowledged that I was different in that way was when I was. I think I was about teen and ice stepped on a slug. It like someone had tracked it into the kitchen of my home and I stepped on it with my sock and I felt it and it was like a lightning bolt up to my body that I and I never killed anything at that point I mean not knowing me, I'm sure, trampled bugs before on accident, but I'd never sort of done, something in recognised at the moment, and I was so heartbroken MA. I didn't know No, the slug prior to this experience, but I found a match box and I buried it in a match box, my backyard and, as I was doing it by myself, I was like yeah you're, not normal, normal ya. Now. We ve got a couple of those in our house and I have raised them from the beginning to feel all their feelings and express all their feelings. are you guys
Specially have like this far into quarantine, sometimes there just hours into discussing their feelings, and I just think maybe I went we value by us to buy it. I hope a corrective like tat, I should have talked about bring silently a little bit well, don't you ve ever find that you're like you're caught between what would be most quote healthy. Productive, emotionally, freer, kids and then the reality that there are going to join the real world, we're not going to give a flying fuck. It's like that. Chris right, joke of his last stand. Up is like bad. I'm the only person that's going to care about this shit, you leave this house and no one gives a fuck about your choice. Is I always wonder, sometimes: like, misleading them are. False advertising with the world is because you know
dude, whose all yours for these two girls at all times and I might get good luck find in this replacement cause. I you know I have not met a ton of deeds that want to hear about any. Feelings around the clock That's why I don't hang out with boys. I dont know about noise. I dont know my name I do here that I didn't hear that. But you know what that in our family sports help solve that problem. So when Abbe came to our family audience feelings to bits He felt like maybe our children needed to be able to carry on a little bit more in the in the real world, and so they all started playing Sakharov seriously, and I was not sports, but I don't know the sports ok, well tell you that I have become the biggest believer in it's for kids, because I'm watching
my kids out on these fields- and I have tried to talk to them and teach them forever about. You know like whinnying, with class and losing with dignity and like persevering, even when you're frustrated and like dealing with your feelings of disappointment, and they, doing it all on the sports feel like I have no doubt if it is little place inside of a game where they get to experience the iron range of human emotions and deal with it now and do it in a community. Of other people with the shared goal and learning how to yeah do that altogether. I think is profound. I want to know a little bit to me. Ten years old really young to have a eating disorder, not in the sense that that's basics, the age I developed. All these texts like these OECD takes end up, so I recognise that in that way it makes sense Gazette ten, you probably felt like a lot of your world, was out of control that a body,
thing. Was it linked at all to you having a body image at ten years old of what a girl was supposed to look like already? Maybe I mean I don't know when I think about that now, and I look at my kids in my anger. One is I don't know she's, twelve or eleven or something, and it makes me want to cry when I think about myself ten year old having that secret, you know that secret life, I think, I'm sure, I'm sure I mean when it with writing untamed. I know that when we start to internalize social conditioning often happens right at ten years old. You know between them. eight and twelve is when we start losing ourselves to start pleasing to understand. Oh that's what suggested you that's what I am doing as to do that's what a Christian first to do. That's where straight It's best to do. We really do start to understand those social conditions and we get a lotta caged by them, but I hunger. I get it
I would imagine that that young and I still have a lot of feelings that I had when I was ten when I'm sponging, you had to do with hunger. I get here do with? no pain and I can numb pain with food. I think it was a discovery at length. I have all these feelings and I dont know what to do with them. I think, like we do tell kids how to deal with feelings, never learned how to deal with fear and anger and jealousy in pain, and I just felt like as a kid that everybody else was happy, and I was full of paint and then I was ashamed of that and food was away to just escaped for a while stuff it all down, but I think did understand that important for me to stay small. I've always that message is ground into my bones, stem in all senses of the word yet
sickly, small, your opinion should be small. The space your occupying should be small, I think, that I have now. Finally, in the last decade of my life, gotten myself, largely free from the idea that my opinion should be small ambition. I still get confused about, but my physical body I mean I'm telling you I was crying. to antibiotic. It's gotten a little bit worse, in quarantine because Watch is getting worse before quarantine, thousands to be going in a book tour and whenever I'm about to do something, really public we call it. My family, I get weird which really just means Lake how to manage and eating is much forever and I told I'll be I'd that that if I could measure my thoughts that fifty percent of my thoughts each day, our about food and body weight
pisses me off so much interest it didn't reaches me because I'm a very smart woman and a powerful woman- and I can't imagine the opportunity cost of those thoughts like what could create and the work It could do and the time that I could spend thinking about my family and myself. If I had those thoughts back, it's not food right. It's the control of food, yeah. What would you girls say? What percentage of your days is occupied by that? So that's what I'm trying to think, because for food like to three percent, me no just I'm hungry and I want food, but can very high new issues just manifests itself in a different way. For me what year, instead of food you're thinking about shit online right is that your control mechanism, I'm thinking about nesting sting ended, nurture
ring in the in the bad sense of the word in the word that I need to be doing something different to make everyone happy and if we only had this drawer organizer, everyone would have a much better family dinner and we wouldn't have thought about politics, because I, but I didn't get the drawer organizer. So that's why it happened. So it's it's. What are the outside sources that I can fix the all the insights dove, which is really just you know, family. action in confirmation by us and all these different things so yeah it's it's mostly nesting of different things. I need in my life that our material I do two minds. Usually it's. for the house or I think, I'm one click away from in its enjoying peace like just have to order that one other thing and it'll I'll be fixed at this control thing is so interesting because I, would say in my marriage with Abbe I have
come to understand that I am very controlling person, ok end before in my other relationships. I just thought that I was a very good leader just now fella we ourselves as alpha. I just don't like in any given conversation of people but I have the best ideas and so here you and then we will all get to my idea I feel the weight of always having the best plan as well. I can really so it worked ok for a while, but then Abby. It just stopped working and I think She also thinks that she has good ideas right. I remember one night. I was doing my thing where I just try to manipulate the situation and she said: it makes me so sad when you do that and as it were,
she's like when you try to control what I'm doing it makes me feel like you, don't trust me and now it's not really sad, because I really trust you boy when a great way to Munich and get ready you yet too. Those being married, a guys like that up to two girls being married, who are both seekers and both sober and have nothing else to do, but talk each other to death all day. This is what we do. So said. The reason I'm telling the story is because when she said that to me I realized. Oh ok, so I don't think I've really been loving before because I've been controlling and I think you can control. People are love people, but you can't you both because love love requires trust right and we, We control things we dont trust so in my marriage- and I China like take the control out of love and just love, but that's I figured out how I knew. I don't love my body and I don't mean the shape of my body like I could give two sheets. that anymore. It's that I don't
actually love it, because I dont trust it. I dont show that's just it would wants when at once and let it become whatever it's meant to become. Instead of trying to control it all the time right, leg, control what I eat: control, how I exercise, keep it a certain size so you know. I just hope that at some point I will be able to take the control out of that part of my life. I'm glad to hear you say that step, because I think you and I run a fatal risk of having a lot of the answers and then what appealing about us to certain people, and I don't you, but I personally get alot of esteem from that and validation and I'm flattered and blown away that someone would want my perspective on something but The danger in it for me is, I can stop being honest in the moment about what I'm currently struck
why so you and I have great stories about what we ve over com and then I think that the Part Hall is that its then huh. to own, what's going on currently because I'm afraid I'll lose that you know privileged position, I have some people's lives. I just wondered if that something that you know, as you write books and people will tell you that this book change their life. You feel like its harder actually own. All year round time. Defects and struggles now I don't feel like that. I don't ever feel like. I have answers. Actually I don't that's not what I'm doing a guy just I'm really really curious about the mess of it all and not having answers which is having interesting observations and feelings that we all kind of help, the same time like, I think. Maybe the know it all thing coming, and in my family you know, I think I did realize,
after observing the difference between the way. I do think that advocates thinks she's, not a controller she's. The kindest person I know is I kept ok yeah, like I might have smartest thing to say in this situation, but everyone eggs for more. Big everyone I like her more. They answer my parents like her more like it, so I just kept thinking. Ok like I could keep do I can keep running this ship or I could China, like have friends like shit. I could sky it that way. You know she sees me then do you trouble, but the opposite, which is that a lot of people do very much think you have the answers and they read your book and it's like a holy grail for them and Do you struggle with that? Knowing that you yourself feel like I know this
just a mass and I'm just working through it. And I am putting this step out there. But people immortalized that. But I think that is the thing tat the answer. The answer is that this is all a mess and we're all working through it like that. So what should be immortalized rate, so there might be like little glimmers of of insight that that come through each struggle that I happen to be able to put down on paper, that's good now. Also, forget everything like it amazes me that there is an entire book of wisdom that I I don't know anything right now I got everything that just happened. All the unemployed for memo like I. Can every day and learning the same things over and over and over again, it's embarrassing knows and learn the lesson twice in one day that I've known for ten years and my Jesus Christ, I got to write it down and glanced at it
couple hours. Absolutely I mean I just let's just went through this last night. I was lying in bed like feeling so often because I had lost my temper last week I said some shit things to a really good person and I just get me wow we're still doing this? We are still doing here now Will you ever think too, as I assume that you do live ten stepping do now? I did anyone. Let us talk about it, no idea. You can say we I mean that's a fact yeah so on four, There's a part of my sobriety, and now I am big huge. Believer, but I haven't been to meeting in a really really long time bring long term. Is like a daily. You take a quick, ably amatory, and then you you make amends when appropriate. Use can fix what you ve done daily and I think it's had evidently yeah yeah yeah, so, like so part of music,
I am proud that I made a good habit of that. You know I do that pretty often, but then their voice. My heads, like you, know these people. You know that but like a lot more than an apology for fucking stop doing like I'm waiting for someone to say to me like a good for you, thank you for the thousand pounds. this year, just fucking stop doing it like. I found myself at work this year going back they're getting. They must beginning apology fatigue for me. I hope your holiday. Either offending me or apologizing? For those are the only areas. It seems that in any I didn't have that this particular situation one of the reasons I was so annoyed is because I had this idea of myself that during corona I was gonna, be like this amazing leader like I was gonna, be gonna, be like that
leader that ever let like people we're gonna. Look back on this time and they were gonna be like that with our anger like and then In the meeting with these people who, in my head, I am leaving the shit out of ideas, completely lost me shit. I liked me I said be Dick. He things that most sport, raiders wouldn't say. Now. So anyway. and where you been one thing at night, and I really wanted to be a good leader and I just feel like I blew it and then she said and also your side cause. You hurt her feelings right. Oh boy, while I feel guilty until
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what she's a family therapists yeah. We like it's not a show about the corona virus. Rather it's about the deuce in don't sustain inside. During this extremely bizarre situation, we find ourselves in movies, tv and video game recommendations along with advice from these long time. Experts working from home and stain indoors show also features calls with their friends and family to check in an offer tips on how everyone is keeping their heads on straight, while socially isolating all proceeds from the podcast go to charities for people hardest hit by the virus, to listen to the show, just search for staying in with Emily and command in Apple podcast, Spotify Sticker or wherever you listen MA. What are your thoughts as we headed into pandemic? What what role did you think in your mind? You would occupy a very, very similar. I didn't. I didn't think be the leader me, you know for the free world, but I definitely thought
I've got this family on Unlock. My kids are gonna come now. going into second grade with their times table olives with a bigger vocabulary with hunger, fertile learn, neighing in a growth mindset, because I can stimulate all of those things, when we began this. In teen you know I saw online. All the beautiful pictures that color coded schedules- and I made it- I sat down with colored pencils- I think I'm saying these words right now and I true I want a puke thinking about it, but I I shaded and it was beautiful in rainbow and I hung it. I made them little place settings where we would learn, and this is when you were still out of town doll and women. You I was watching from afar know, if I'm so glad, I'm in taxes yeah five days of this, my girls he did me and he may hated me. Monica you saw allow wow
they don't. No with the happy. No one was happy end and I am the fifth day. I woke them up. I'm going to get up earlier, and this is going to be a dramatic huge reveal. Even that I couldn't let go. I was like now and now I'm going to do it right. I woke them up and I said girls, girls come into the kitchen, have a very important, maybe the most important job you ve ever had and they were like what and I took this- actual off the wall and I I handed it to them and I said rip it up. We read it and they were like what because again they are not used to me not having a ton of control and they got really excited like tiny wolverines and they shredded it and they did then they looked at me like oh, was this trap the test and we'll say this part with pride. I said here the lesson. If you have a plan that is
making everyone miserable the lesson: is you pivot? You have it because I was making you guys miserable with this huge idea. I had about our school days. none of us are happy. We are pivoting and I want you to take these shreds and throw him in the trash and we ve and very little learning since that day but the hunting, I feel so bad for all you guys everything I honestly I look at this and I saw the schedule and I was like ok, so people gonna be a little upset that they have to do reading for an hour or this and that a good for Kristen poor making them do. at a time when we she clue, just be like whatever she's a try to bring some structure it where they came from a good place. It came from plates of let's keep your brains moving an active,
and so there is like no right there's just no right answer. I feel horrible, for you, people You say nothing really rough, it s, not really. I often say boy what you're willing to go through just have the tiny arms around your neck, for, like thirty seconds it eggs, that's pretty much yea, that's the yellow, little arms around your neck for thirty seconds a day and that's the only fuel you get in the tank for all the other ship say. I have a quick question for you because you said you know you want to be the leader and step in. Is that because you ve established your identity as that, so when it was like falling apart, it felt so brood like do do call yourself, leader and lives. I just wanted to be good, You know I just wanted lake to. I love this little team. I was going through this in all plans were dashed because they ve all been working on this launch all year or so
It was just a mess and I just wanted to be like a steady, loving force right so that didn't work out so well, but you, like every plan. It's like what you said. We make these plans and then it's always there's a here. The thing that happens and when you said that thing to the kids Kristen about the lesson is winning structures not working. We have it It reminds me of the conversation I had with my kids when we were divorcing, not at that. is the same. Can I just I did you disservice ironic for anyone who doesn't know your story? Let me just encapsulated quickly, which is you graduated college. You became a teacher in Northern Virginia, you got me. to a man, and you have three children. You were married for quite a while for fourteen years, something like that and credible on time as Christian I Neer thirteen years and were already planning our exit. So it's incredible
impressive and then you met Abbey and fell in love with me, and then you get divorced and you got married to Abbe. So that, in a nutshell, is the overarching story, but within that I'm curious deepened. The marriage did, you say, feeling like this wasn't the fit for I know that that he had cheated several times, and then I listened to your pardon. The book rediscover having sex or you're, telling your therapists about it, I'm wondering how many years into that fourteen year run before you are feeling like the euro we doing it for the children yeah I mean Craig and I got married craig- is he listened everyone is. Are we die every any he's? The big dogs, every ITALY dinner. Will we all had dinner together. Lot were very close and leave
just be at dinner, and somebody was they will like TAT said today. We do not want a conversation, the unhappy yes, I was so we got married when I found out that I was pregnant. Ok, I got sober the deck and found pregnant so I think there is any doubt that I didn't do it. I never found myself addicted daddy drugs booth was making just happened fifteen years fifteen years and boots and what else I was never ever addicted to a drug idea. All of us, I did all the drugs. I don't think, there's any doubt that I didn't do it. I never found myself addicted Drugs bill was making just at all, and cocaine in college was. I got a little a little too much. So I started drinking at the end of high school, so I would have been. Maybe Sixteen seventeen and then I could. When I was twenty five hundred of us pregnant. Ok, and you were still you were teach at this time, yeah yeah I'll get it
drinking to black out every night. I never ever had a night. Why wasn't I didn't, we're going to sleep was. I was had had to pass out so teaching every day. Actually a really good teacher so scaring people by thinking that homes going it's a good idea after hearing that, but I listened teach. I loved my students. It was night, my slave of goodness and it's where I got all of Myself- a sea, because it was the only thing that I was good at. I think the functioning of the holdings is it's hard at that time. I did too yeah yeah yeah, you don't have as many of these things. People confronting you is often- and I will say, is sometimes my addiction and the shames by Robert who benefited a lot of other people, so I would imagine for you, you black you come to. You don't go to sleep and wake up the shame this morning, in the
leaping you have to rebuild that self esteem is being a good teacher, so in many ways I worked much harder trying to catch up for the time wasted and I was exe your available. His shame. Is it as a great source of your? Unfortunately, so yeah sometimes in your your advantage here at so craig- and I got married right around then, and when you said winded I know I mean I say that Craig and I were amazing cocoanuts will really good at creating a little family he's a fantastic dad and- and I was a good mom and we made this beautiful little family. But as a couple we just couldn't get their emotionally or physically likely. Just driver had a depth of you know it would date nights for her press has been used to go out and talk more and make out more and more shocked at both investing so that it does.
the thing and then insects was really confusing and hard for me. I just thought there was something wrong with me that I did. I hated it so much that it was really not a good experience for me. I always felt like I was acting. I never felt lost at any moment. I just it was a performance. I don't I, don't you even prior to Craig it's hard for me to think about it before Craig, because I was always drinking charm so, so I don't know I mean I had boy friends I had I never ever ever. Remember thinking sector, this magical thing about, I don't know So you know I just like knew how to act in that way. So to bend this way and to make this noise and spoke to like where this thing we're about being wanted and wanting
actually, the number set thinking you know. Sex in a marriage is like an oil change. You just have to wait, keep doing act like keep things running smoothly, and so no one gets underway, and that's it that's lovely and romantic. So then, ten years in Craig told me that, had been unfaithful made through Our message and that was a juicy, but when I think back on it, I remember my friends thinking that my reaction with strange because I was utterly gives, and heartbroken because of what it gonna do to my family rights. because then some level did, you feel, like I'm sure he needed that gives it wasn't happening with us No, I wasn't that why it's mine either
the opposite way. I thought will know shit, there's something wrong with us. Having like no wonder and pissed all the time. No wonder we can't connect in bad because you're out there I painted thought about it, the opposite way, but my rage about it was more geared towards screwing up my cat It was like a person would feel when they were betrayed by their person right like it nothing personally got matching. It was like. How could you do this to our family taping, but still at the time, Everybody had ideas about what I should do. I just knew that it wasn't time for me to leave, got that there was unfinished business there I think I knew that if I left him with that much age that we would never be able to cope here. We had to work through something idea,
So we did. We worked our asses off for years and he did every single thing that a person could ask of another human being he tried so hard. He went at all air, but he did everything mines and I was still just like low level Reggie all the time, the new man. What I did. No matter how hard I tried. I was just there praying for this, like forgiveness thing to land on me, but it wouldn't really and this is a really fun part of the story, which is you write a book about this experience. This the moment in your life. I just really the project. Stops character default of mine is like I made my bad now, will fucking lay and misery? so I wrote a book about salvaging a marriage that had been robbed by fidelity and
like that you announced that you're getting divorce was a two weeks after the book came out, the fire, am I and this an open book club like them money and things that have gone, to getting this book to an undue and what is at stake. Courage, redemption story is how is being touted. This is incredible, so unhappy first, that launching love warrior. First event, I've ever done for love wares and out in world and like its librarians convention and there's like thousands of librarians and air and I'm sitting at this table in this dark room with a bunch of other writers before the event happens, and I look over it's. The doorway and he is standing in the doorway pardon me telling the story because it so cheesy and I can't believe it.
This is the story I have to tell you, but what I have to tell you is that all of my being was like there. She is and she was a stranger little stranger went off without doing there's, not a librarian professor, the thought of wire many times decorated to time Goldwyn metal winner. Yet she was launching a book to us all seeing her memoirs she's luncheon. Forward, and actually this part is not in the book. Is I didn't know how to explain this? Is it was so weird, but it's our favorite family party story, which is for some reason when I saw her in the doorway, stood up opened my eyes, which no one can understand to this day I just it was like. I could not contain myself so then I was standing open, had to figure out how to get back to the chair church, which was what one of the most awkward them into my really quick, Are you a fan of soccer? Did you know that she was now I? Nor can I accept
and was a semi pro cyclical, so you might do not apply, wouldn't you say so position that they play the same position. I dont think that can never be. I think it is in the front increases in the back metaphor, so yes also, then the crazy thing is that we see if emailing back and forth, we spend a couple hours together in that room with all the librarians and then we both when our supper ways and then we emailing each other and months month later. I admit it myself that I was in love with her and, I told crag as close to US both from when I knew, I told him, and I disassembled my entire life and we never even been in a room together alone. never seen each other from not die and we met at the librarians. Imagine
so. That was why, so you started your exit before you even started dating oh yeah. I didn't the exit, the exit like we both dissembled our entire lives and then, after all of them after having told my people all something then We met in allay tonight see. This was a thing since you had this base line your whole life of I'm crazy yeah. You know that was party, your narrative, you're thinking that during this, like I'm in love with someone, once in a room, Things rage actively crazy. That out of a minute is not. I went with it. We got all very well for its extreme anyway, if its extreme know, because it felt to me the only only other time my life, I've ever been a sure, as I was with Abbe was when I found out. I was pregnant chase. So
in that scenario I found myself positive pregnancy tests and about through floor almost dead addiction I had nothing left if I bird every bridge in my life of so sick and there was just this like yes inside of me, that was completely undeniable and incomplete opposition to all of my reality. Nothing in my life that would have proven like. Yes, you be a good mom. of course this makes sense. It made no sense and then I was one hundred percent sure that I was gonna have chase, become about and and that's how I felt Abbe it felt like- Oh, I mean a lot made sense to me suddenly. Maybe this is the reason that I have never been able to understand what love is like. Maybe this is a reason. I've never been able to be intimate with another human being. Maybe this is the reason I felt like I've been slowly dying fur inside of for so long its crazy bite. You know when I told Craig
I don't know if things in a work out with Addy who the hell knows, I'm not leaving just for Abbe lonely because now I know I can't pretend anymore, but this is the thin like The thing that we have this is is love like I understand now that this isn't what that be so wasn't leaving just because of Abbe I was leaving, because I could no longer pretend that my marriage was real in that moment. Didn't give you the forgiveness, you had been hoping, you could give him, we were able to see her. I was like, oh, I can let this heart go, I love that question and I think I think a lot about what forgiveness is through this process and now end think. Sometimes we just wait for free, this too, just like fall upon us, like forgiveness, is a thing that just happens to us, but but what I keep saying to myself like that that low level river reach that I was describing to you?
The narrative of that river was how could he do this to me like? How could he be ended? like this. How could he and when I realized after awhile whistling heed our done it like question for me was: why do you keep doing this Why are you abandoning yourself right? The first time I felt will forgiveness for Craig was after divorce mediation in the elevator together going back, don't parking lot and I looked over him and for the first time I felt complete and total empathy, and kindness and fondness for him, and I think that's because I had finally done the work to make myself six yeah! You wanted him to give you a feeling that he can't give you examples exactly forgiveness has to be forged by you, sometimes by restoring whenever boundary make You feel unsafe me, you know and gone, and you talk a lot in your book
the knowing, which I love so much, because I feel like I have a problem listening to my knowing, as you have to kind of stop and really listen to your internal voices, do feel like that. Decisions in to end the marriage for good and then maybe start something with Abbe was the first or perhaps second, maybe the second being after you decided to have chase and become a mom. The second time We would actually listened to your knowing or were you familiar with it from are small decisions. Keyser actually practising that. a little while after I found myself on my bed at three In the morning googling sitting, stay with my husband. He cheated on me, but is a good dad. the energy type ensured the rest would fill in. Size out one time, Dax googled on my phone just to two coroner me
cage me. to get away with murdering your husband History shows that in case that so smart tat creature covering so so that was just a moment. It was like a rock bottom of having any sort of inner wisdom that I was googling like what to do with the most important decision of my life. Right. I put this during untamed night. My son was having friends over the other. The boys and a bunch of girls over I, piqued, my head in that is anybody hungry and This really amazing thing happened, which is that all of the boys in the room without taking their eyes off the tv they just said yes, The girls did something completely different. Ok, every single girl not from his public six of them they eat. took their eyes off the tv
and they started looking at each other's faces. Yeah, ok king at each other's pieces to find out if they themselves were hungry inside their own bodies. Right, ok, and then Some kind of mental telepathy started happening link between these children spaces and then they somehow silently appointed a spokes girl. Ok, I still don't know how this happens, but this little freckled sweet, braided child turned toward me and she says no thank you were fine. And this was right around the same time as the googling and I realized. Ah, oh that's how this happened to me right, like because in our culture, in many ways boys are taught in any moment of uncertainty to look inside themselves, find an answer and very bright, and those are taught to look out
I'd themselves for consensus for permission alleges for my side of the boy spectrum needs deeper than that. It's that indecision is weakness, so are endless thread is that we are weak in important and indecision is a sign of that. So were fighting our thing, which is weakness, that is that's what happened in that tv rose so The interesting thing happened which this that was right about now deciding what to do with Craig after the infidelity and how this interesting, when diagram going on in my life and publicly, which that I was a sort of a feminist person and a quick in person and is a weird the diagram tat right. So at that point path people more certain. I should do one thing The people were certain that I should do nothing right at the right that's. When I realized there is no right thing to do like right is just
hopefully constructed, big on which group here at night, So that's my started practising literally going into my closet and sitting in trying to practise finding whatever this freaking. Knowing thing is that people talked about and I practicing. For a long time, so I had been practised, trusting it with little things. I think once you start practising trusting your own intuition in your own, knowing with some things. It becomes unthinkable to not honour it even now. So your new book untamed, you start the book with your at this animal arc and they bring out a cheetah and you're there with your kids and they also have a golden retriever. There are some dog that It has been raised within the two of them chase this silly. pink, stuffed animal attached to a jeep
and the whole thing ultimately was you're having very strong emotional reaction. No washing this cheetah live in a construct. That's quite far, from what her design was, and you start putting these pieces that you like the cheetah, and probably most women are obtained by this culture that you seek to be untamed by some that up sufficiently he's not. Women, everybody just like what you just said. You know the struggle that we have, which is that were two different things be, are born with individuality and uniqueness, and then over time we have to be assimilated into groups. We are signed things you're, a girl, you're, a Doyle, your christian Euro, whatever your strong, your dear sir, I always categories right, and so we want that belonging of having that tribe, that better that identity, but it of course,
start to catch us all the things that go on being a girl, I just remember watching that she didn't being like. Oh ok, so if, if Ceuta, a wild animal could be tat. Seemed to forget who she is. think she's, a lab that should chase sturdy pink beneath all day and certainly a human being? can be trained teachers things till they die and forget who they are a another animal analogy that, for whatever reason really registered with me as I was at the zoo and there, was like a zoo keeper. Next to me, or some that worked at the zoo, and I was watching them clean, the elephants Ray and they chain elephants, foot to this post in the ground, the state, and so it stay still why they clean it I said, the elephant pull that stake out of the ground. So it's ten thousand pounds and they
goes oh yeah big; they totally can pull it out of the ground, but they don't know they can because they were hooked to it when they were babies when they clung to pull it out of the ground and they tried and tried and tried, and eventually they stop trying- and for the rest of her life, they'll, never try to pull it out, and I was I my God, this is pathetic- for me is is so relevant. You now ok and when you just said that I just remembered there's this little zoo down the street, and they have this. There called little monkey islands. So you get on this little boat and drive around this thing of water and there's teeny islands where one monkey lives on each island, and my daughter said why They just like swim to each other can monkeys, not swam and that the super said actually, Can I just don't know they? Can they could get to each other industry they don't know that they can swim top rated.
It's so interesting, because, beyond the less were learning in this conversation, which is that we need to be kind. To animals also that you know one thing that I feel like I've learned in my marriage with Dax, who I do truly believe, is the perfect match for because we are so in opposition about everything, and its constantly challenging me is that I feel The feelings I think feelings are feeling I'm come, I'm completely wrong. I'm constantly trying to you fig how not to feel everyone else's pain, but he often at least when he speaks to me- comes from a place of the what the sports. was doing for your children, which is yet but again through it, be a part of this. Munifi. There are certain things you can't do at the dinner table, like sob about whatever article about Syria, you read that day use that on your own time, right now we're going to communicate, and it's like. I think
I've learned is that, although I do want to develop all these feel, all your feelings, parts of Crystal I am also really really grateful that he has Tamed wouldn't be the word, but I guess trains means act to be a part of a team like what the soccer is doing for your kids, where you can talk about your feelings all day, but used. Gotta know how to work within the human race, which is that sometimes we all have to deal with our own shit and we have to sit in the pain and get over it and be a part of the team and work for a common goal. Absolutely. That's the pattern in our house to Christ. It is, That's really sad, and also what else can we talk about two,
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what's greatest you know not, unlike you, unlike I've, been with someone for almost thirteen years that just people generally like more than me so little whatever in theory, I have that I can win in a court case. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day, because a million more people want to do her favour than me and they want to be around her and its. Wednesday, everything the way I think of being responsible about money. I think she's completely irresponsible, and yet it just keeps coming in fuckin buckets in Sudan and the more irresponsible she is. The more arrives for her to read, distribute So you don't have I'm always so worried about money away, If she gets three catch up suddenly, why why three catch up? We only need one. She Orders to much pizza all the things, and the big things too and doomed ducks if, if it doesn't work for her, it just works We fear that Christian, her irresponsibility is giving to charity.
she's, not my number one wife. Thank you had this whole about it's, not it's! The generosity of it is fear it compared to the scarcity minds that it just now. Scarcity person. What it's not just about money. It's not all about control all the time. It's about people being in our house. It's about yeah, that everything's fine night for me and everything has to be protected in everyone's gonna. Try it isn't the other stuff from you that you want to protect. yeah and end, but I that the spring to be forced to live with someone to realize. I dont end up with more the stuff I'm trying to protect. I end up with less of it. It so counter intuitive, but here we are same exact experience in my house gunning. Can you look a little bit? One thing that really struck me in untamed is the way
you. I guess it through your own experience, encourage people to find their own, knowing in their sort of true untangling in what's inside them is recognised. What your memos were an end, acknowledging that you were given memos. Can you talk a little bit about sort of what men we are in and how you read them and then Burnham yeah. Well, I mean, I guess, I'll tell you a story about when I figured out that this may be an issue was that when I was deciding whether or not to pursue my relationship with Abby or stay in my marriage which to me really felt like okay? Am I going to honor myself or abandon myself? That's how I was thinking up. It wasn't just like a beer Craig. It was like. Am I going to honor the stealth, or am I just going to freaking? Bury it forever again, you know, and I really did in the beginning- decide I'm going to bury it. I'm gonna stay marriage, because I
leave back Baghdad, that a good mother does not hurt her children a good mother but olive her kids needs above hers, and so that's what I was going to do. one day I was breeding my little girls here and she's looking at herself in the mirror, and she She looked at me and she said something like mom. Can I do my hair like yours, it's something about the way she said it just made me think o every and this little girl looks at me, she's, asking a question: h: thinking How does a woman do her hair? How does a woman love, how does a women live in I'm staying in this marriage for her, but what I want this marriage or her, and if I would want this marriage for her. then, why am I modeling bad love and calling that good mother And I realized that the reason I was doing, that is
as I was given a message will be. We will call members in the book, and the memo was a good mother is a martyr a good mother, just slowly dies. She just berries, her own dreams and her emotions in her ambition and her desire. ever, and she just calls that love, I I just started thinking really heard about that message and that memo and I started realizing. I don't think that's true right because- What a bird in full the children of martyr mothers to bear right too to know that they are the reason of their mothers living to know that if they ever have children one day they will be required to stop living too, because if we show our kids that the opinion of motherhood is martyrdom that's what they were try to live up to
This is. Why, I call Young said the greatest burden a child can bear. Is the unloved life of a parent rights? That's when I realized like bear. Are these memos that we get one being a good mother is a martyr that we really have to burn and write our own memos? What change mine to was that a good mother is not a murderer. A good mother is a model. It is not my duty as a mother to show my children how to slowly die but how to bravely live until the day they die. and it's my duty to show them that real love does not ever require a lover. Are the beloved to disappear. In fact, It always requires the lover of the beloved to emerge fully, and this that I really believe is that our children will only allow themselves to live as fully as we allow ourselves to live in fact our duty to never settle for a situation or relationship that is less true and beautiful than the one we would want markets
the idea of this is that we all be good, very good, good. I didn't know any good and that's fine, but if we defaults to the cultural ideas of what is good and I for a woman. All of those messages will tell us to disappear. If you to be a good girl to be quiet and pretty and smile? If you wanna be a good way according the cultural ideas, accommodating and pleasing and you'll be a good color we have to be grateful and a team player gonna be a good mother. You have too slowly disappear. All of the messages to girls will tell them to get smaller and smaller rights but all event aimed at what all my life is about for the last decade is really what what within said, which is that, if we want to live examined, lives conscious intentional lives, we have to re examine every single thing we ve been taught. In the world in a book. classroom in religion and dismissed Everything that insults at all
this is what it means is just that I know I want to be good, but I wanted to find what good means for me in terms of womanhood in terms of sisterhood in terms of marriage they all of it today. Not defaulting, cultural, conditions of good the leave me tracked the rest of my life, so you ever worry about like because I'm sure, some people at first glance could take these citizen, be like we'll wait. What she's saying that you're, not to be grateful if you're coworker, because you're than your caged untamed and you're not supposed to be accommodating, if you're in a marriage because then you're a caged untamed like do you ever worry that anyone could take these suggests or that anyone's receiving them as leg should, should hit the fan and we should re each and were no untamed in theirs anarchy. I mean, I think, that
That just depends on. First of all, I think it depends on what you think of when you think of untamed. I think people think of wild when they think of untamed and then they think of something. That's like that dangerous you now or bad? I think that when I think while they think of something it's really beautiful and shrill, and also maybe a little bit dangerous, I mean I think, that One of the really hard things for women is that we are always taught that we need to be grateful. I mean I done what, a lot of people are telling me to do my marriage. I should just be grateful. It's a good nut. I had a marriage that a lot of interchange think it's good enough right. The idea that you could want more, I think, is a good I mean you guys like the first story I ever learned about being a woman, and God was this. Ok I was in conveyed an my teacher and CCD teacher Sake Catholic Sunday school.
cod is down to the the carpet. Engine Ok, I'm gonna teach you about how God made people, and she said so God made Adam and added, and God, where best friends, ok and then Eve came because Adam got bored and needed a helper, and everything was perfect. What it was just got an atom, but then Eve wanted more. She couldn't a grateful. She wanted more and she went for it and then all hell broke loose all over the earth and suffering was unleashed forever go with God. Girls like this is what the message is right like honest,
Kristen at that. Excuse me at all, because I feel like women are grateful enough. Every woman I know is grateful. It's not like were either ungrateful or we want more, like it's ok, to be grateful for what you have and also want more. I mean I know so many women who have this like longing deep longing inside of them for two more beautiful relationships were tumor beautiful communities for children. the full careers, and they just want admit their discontent or their longing, because I don't know because there they think that they should just be fine good enough for me distinction. Is Europe is asking for the examination of yourself and what you want and what you need if you want and need to be accommodating. If that feels true to you, if that feels like your best self, that's ok, you're, not sing. All these things are bad you're. Just saying this is the program and take a SEC.
to examine that programme and see whether it's really working for you, whether as fulfilling you got some parts of it might be, and then, mighty tune yeah and also the idea that we all have different conditioning, you mean my family. It was very important fur children and for me to be sweet and quiet an accommodating rape or somebody else may have a completely different conditioning. Programme. I have a similar Kristen does which is the potential risk is well guess what
living in a society in general comes with eating a lot of shit. There's some communal benefits. It's the social contract. It's like! Yes, I'm I'm, I'm not gonna shit on the street. As I know, someone else has to deal with itself. You know on some level I think were aware that we're all gonna have to take it on the chin. Just co exist to be in a family together. Its endless compromise is not just what I want to do. It's there's three other people that also need to get their slice of the pie, and so yeah! I wonder if that fear on first glances, that everyone should just be treated themselves in is even possible for everyone to be true themselves yet still live in a society where we get the benefits of that. Well, I mean to me that you sound like the slippery slope, a cabin we can't just all go around being at what will happen like that's. It just feels like, what's the old, like I'm just talkin, about
slowly, dying and fight like I'm talking about being in a relationship and when you have a feeling or a need not burying it. Rain what we can go around in a family, all being true to ourselves. Like one of the cap What is in every conversation, we have created communities where people actually do feel safe, bringing their false after the table right, lake where people actually do feel safe, staying or actually like when you said that I felt something and I'm gonna say it: it doesn't mean like people against are sitting in the street. It just means it means, like people are going to have safe spaces to bring more of themselves to table, so they all have to keep swallowing themselves over and over again over and over a dead horse, but I really would like to shit in the street is so convenient, sometimes I'm there already, and I don't want to run to the bathroom
we work at it needs you, two states and I have a real where Europe waiting and what I think a lot of people do, and our condition to do is equate being true to yourself with being selfish like being selfish. If we have a need was also the idea of, I think it gets to like what do you believe about people at the base, if you're afraid, that light people are treated themselves, everything's gonna go to shed and that really does kind of feel up a route belief that people are bad right. Like what I actually believe is that when you get to the truth is truth of things is the people are good like? I was speaking about recently, and somebody said what we're going to go around doing what we want. We now want to drink a bottle malibu every night. Can I just do that, but the God did the lake. Of course, and the reason why she asked because she didn't trust that boy, like you, didn't trust that desire or she wouldn't ask the right like what
the thing is it since we live in a in a capitalist culture. Is that what their job is to take these basic human needs that we have and attach a product to it right, so The idea of the bottle of Malibu is there's a desire beneath it desire beneath it is just to last for an escape. If you dont trust that desire than you go beneath it defined the good real truth thing that you need. I mean what I believe is that people are are better the freer they are. actually believe that, and I think we need to create communities, relationships families nations, all of it where people you feel safe, bringing their full self to the table. I agree Let's talk about religion for two seconds, because I feel it initially, when Christmas reading your stuff, I think you're still bridging the gap which are trying to make peace with multiple things that
to me on the surface seem contradictory, and I know that you ve had like of an evolution and I Don't know how to sum up where Europe now or maybe, even where you were when I was first hearing passages, but did. You say something recently that I felt like I was protein, how I look at it because, obviously I'm in this programme- it's your spouse directive requires you to believe in a higher power. I've got sort of workarounds. For that I dont make the sun and moon raw. is there some other forests gravity. Does that it's more powerful than me, but I guess what I'm doing the work where I'm asking for God's will to be known for me to do God's. Will what I find in what I'm shocked that other people don't have the confidence in is that I know the right thing. I've always known the right thing I dont need pray for. fine inspiration. I can feel it. I often
new things in opposition to that, because I'm a selfish, greedy creature and I want to stockpile everything, I'm afraid of not having, but the voices in me. I know how to exist in harmony with other people and other creatures in on this planet, in theirs, great harmony in the solar system in this universe, and I know what I mean discord with that harmony. I can look for that. Some just curious. You know where you started in where Europe currently well, I mean I guess I would echo the same way as you do I mean I don't feel like there's something necessarily outside of me. Then I need to pray to God. do you feel like there's something inside of me that I can get more deeply cannon in two when I'm quiet,
when I'm not like reaching for all of the shit that I reach for it to Numb it out. So I guess that it's similar right it. What you would say I just know you know, I know what to do like that's what I would call the divine in me whenever that think, what would you call it like intuition or something like? What would you call if you dig name it Joe it's for me. It's when I'm not scared. I can hear the voice so and I'm scared or threatened or frightened the other voice. That is to protect my selfish animal was Dick, needs and desires that my voice I can hear, but when I feel totally save I can. I can hear the not scared answer can This is exactly the right everything's talk about because Abbot. I talk about constantly because she lay
with eyes that I'm praying shall say, say you're talking to yourself again they come fleetly different, but she still. fascinated by Iraqis so fascinated by this thing. I mean I know death is like even when I was with you. Really second and wasted all the time I used to sit outside and just like tat to. I don't know who I dont know something my better self buy something some Wenis is all that I can say I can describe as a weena like. I never think it's just me. I just feel like a connection to something else, but I I've always felt like the spark that has something to do with God, the divine or magic, or I don't know what it is. I think it's killing you if you feel like you're an artist and then you go to an art class any it down on the desk, and this really mean teacher gives you a colouring page and tells you that you are the color inside the lines
You mess up, they're, gonna, shame you and they're gonna. Kick you out? That's how I felt about religion right I feel like I had a spark. I was meant to be like some sort of divine, I don't know, and then I went to religion and it was all about like coloring inside the lines. after. While I just love, is back in it me basically to stop going to art, like to stop going the places where people pretended to know what fate was getting out of the institution of all of that help me, and of reconnecting that spark. Certainly, I know where I am now is that I certainly do not by any stretch of the imagination believe that God has to do with church? I think they're too late separate things, I don't believe that
to me is like some allegiance to a set of rules or dogma that people made up. whenever I go to control people and yet lake, if the question is like, is there's something my answers, always in a good yeah. That's it that's how you feel about right. Now, I'm always interested in kind of how you can when we met you. She was definitely christian by us stretched we are driving and why I can remember the exact place on the road we are driving and I said, do you even in Jesus in and she goes and they will not. There was a man named Jesus Christ. I think we all agree on that, but that he was the Son of God and then he came here for and she goes and I was like: oh and for the first time ever I was not like. Oh fuck how am I going do this? How will I raised with this person. I've just like. Ok, that's
I'm not that way and that money fine and I wasn't pay about it, which was knew that would have freaked me off before that, but anyways its evolved. I like, checking in with her, because we also have friends we have this friend Amy, were I don't believe in God, but by God I can see in her like. I can see that she has jeez specifically Jesus in her heart. Everyone wonders and I'm not in denial of that- it's not for me, but it's clearly for her and I love it in her and guide. Try to check in with Bell to see like how her others. I remember that specific stretch of road as well Dax, but what's odd, is that I had a lot of fear in that moment of saying that out loud, because it wasn't my truest self, because I realized. Oh, I went to catholic School. I the answer to repeat right now. I know how to get in a on this test and saying yes and you you to your credit dec
brought me to the dark side, an issue of expose me to a ton of different ideas and the powers in the universe that come from science, and I fully invest, that's what I would bet on. If I were out, if I were at a table in Vegas, that's what I would bet on. But I do also there is thing magic and I dont oh, how to describe magic is probably the best word or You know Glenn and you were saying Weena S, I would say like oneness, there's something about the Buddhist saying If you see a bus coming in someone's in the way you push him out of the way not because he was gonna get hit because you were gonna get hit because there is, something intertwined, we are giant friendship, bracelet and I'm sort of walk around it's a little shocked that other people can't see that and that's what I do feel like is my superpower not in a way to like pat myself on the back, like I have all this knowledge, but in a way of like? Oh, my god, I M really grateful. I can see this because I make disease,
in that I like, because I see how our woven together, you Know- and I do have two police myself a lot because again, like you said Cleanin, I have trouble distinguishing my pain from other people's pain. I would and sit on the bed crying about something that wasn't mine and Dax would say your boy in very selfish right now, if you're hurting at this issue, get off the bed and do something about it donate money, fix a problem whatever, but nobody's benefiting from crying right now, and I think I ve to this medium in that of I might need a couple minutes to cry about being a world peace or whatever But it is that's on my mind that day and then also amount to be active about it and that's what's gonna start healing me, but it is interesting and I've. I've almost put less emphasis on organizing my thoughts about who created that's why we're here blah blah blah, but I do mind you know. Last night Dax, I was talking to Lincoln in a top bunk. She was I've been asking myself all these questions about? What
even our my eyes, why are they seeing what is delta? Is she even here? Are you here am I here, and I said have they need an existential crisis and she said yeah, but it feels crowded, and I don't like all those questions and they hurt my head. Sometimes she said: do I ever wonder too much? Can you one much and I said no way. I said just ask all the questions and I mean it. You know. Maybe happy that she was sort of this hybrid of of you and I that he wants the answers, but I also know she's a really sensitive being I wouldn't I've been curious to know Monica perspective on this like Monica. What do you believe? Can you put that in words because I don't think I've ever heard you talk about this. I never grew up religious at all. In fact, my parents I mean technically the religion is Hinduism which
didn't do anything. We didn't go anywhere and I was really at that age. Of course like pushing aside anything that was others. So I was, I would never have claimed that need it leave did I would never have claimed it, and I did know enough to believe it I I agree that there is a force. I can't name that is happening, and I'm had too many experiences and life, whether it's just like the sea grit. I've too many even just being connected with you to where I, I think, God we already know the story, but I was obsessed with radical Mars and I love did- and I would watch video in this sense this crazy at this point, but I would watch videos of prisoners. I just feel like. I could be really anxious feeling we could be friends.
and you are right, I know, but you don't know how many people think that now I know I get the room, but a billion people think that, but I just like had this sense and then it all like I've had so many full circle moments and life enough to make me feel like there's no way, there's not something else happening. I don't know what that is, and I don't I don't even know me: to put an end to it like. I will show you a simulation while I am. We are living in my dad simulations of that probably answered the question, but I don't. I don't feel I need to put a name to it. I really don't. I don't have this obsession with like figuring out what it is. I just feel kind of safe, knowing there's a something and isn't that wonderful it anyway, that's the brain ass. It were all things. If you didn't ask me ten years ago, I would have had so many things to say,
words and then more words unconditionally words. In some more words, here. I don't care at all. There's no parts of me the care. If anybody starts talking about what they know then I know they just don't know they did they? Don't they don't normally would not like being around everything. Jesus what line- and I really want to do this in person with you to know that we are looking at you guys, don't like I just wish. I was in fact here in your room and I feel like we would probably be a relief fund double date, because pursuant pallaby were really drawn you and I are being- I would probably be really drawing to each other. We all know that everyone knows that our box, us in you, don't know what happened I like to have. You feel ok, wonderful things,
so much for doing this. I've listened to a ton of untamed. I really really enjoyed and dumb. You know my wife, who can't speak high enough about it, and so on. Thank you for what you're doing and am I hope we get to do this again. Thank you guys, the game for you, I love you guys. They muddy the bank's granite and now my favorite part of the show the fact check, with my soul made Monica Batman. Oh boy, you're, like a real limp yeah, really want placid there for a second switchover, we're just watching the Mark TWAIN Prize of. Chapelle YAP. Ah, draw gosh gosh I now how do you feel when you watch? I love you. I love you and I love em and I love the he's being celebrated ed. You know I was thinking we are watching it cause a few episodes ago. We had this talk about genius yeah, and I was saying I don't
genius is worth it. Like I dont think, the world needs that level of genius. If it comes with a huge, haha yeah. We were talking specifically about an actor right call: Marlon, Brando yeah. I have to admit when it comes to Carmody. I think I haven't you dear easy to fine, because by the way you drawing no comparison because chapels, a lovely girl, that's the whole, that's well where I'll get sorry. I was here competition is someone else recently and I was starting to think about comedies and comedic moments that I think are brilliant and I was like. Oh, I mean yeah. If we didn't have the world is worse by her eyes. You know the hat yeah so is probably not perishes cause. I care more about calmly and I feel, like I know more about that world. Yes, so it's not fair,
I know I was in like Picasso yeah, I know he's the one I'm at the museum, the second best person to me, as I am sure your life would not be measurably worse. If Picasso had not been in it yet, but maybe your life would be measurably worse without Chapin yeah. When I was watching that Mark TWAIN thing I was making now, I think if he was a asshole I'd, still want him to do did you really does cause it's so special, but he's not. huge ass. You are now the is not an asshole, and so even I want you thinking all those feelings and then additionally, tons of self loathing cause he's, so God he's so good and I've not dedicated I myself in any way to that's, lobbying great work, Guy is so special and I am so insignificant
A letter that take a lead is: what is the true understanding you the truth? If I understand that hasty, but I'm just wondering because because you're a woman in he's much older than you but the fact that he and I are both guys from the MID West, who are roughly the same age I feel like. Why should have been able to be that good? If I tried hard enough It's. My theory always is like I'm evil of doing all this. There were others having put any our energy and in the older. I get the lesson
That's true drying, like I'm, not capable of. Certainly now at heed your data. What you do you do it just here they what he does so much worm from Fort worth doing. I felt this way, though, when I watched that amazing HBO documentary about Doktor, Dray, untie yeah and Ivy deejay me, I mean I just let the innovators like I am impotent. I am, I am useless, I haven't accomplished anything. Mind you, the heavier. I think I know accomplished way by us. Don't let me look at logic is not part of fear. Fear rarely resembles reality right. I just look at those when I see something that I'm so blown away with those people. I now and I
Thank God I just fuckin. What is I do when you see what it what is capable of whom be like when you watch your lamp actually like? Well, that's all the human body can do tat. I M not even in the tenth percentage of what that humans doing on the gymnastics man, they use the other thing. Ok, I guess I'm out, you know, go. We started his horse, so now we re to her brain is that before we had earned animal rights allotted to suddenly numbers are before you say that, as we know, you're gonna watch it in my understanding of the marked twice, prize was simply, I knew well feral One and, as I am now that's all about it really begin new ways. Incredibly and read. A prestigious need is very be just as the procedures weighty toity ends. I admit it to you now, regretfully, that I wasted at least a half hour of one of my days on planet earth, considering if I've been nominated for Mark TWAIN, ETA can't make a clear point.
I have no illusion that I would ever get nominated for I know I don't qualified, that's not the point. I know I do not deserve. Nor do I think, I'll ever get nominee for a price right. But regardless I allowed myself to fantasize thirty minutes that I had been nominated per Mark TWAIN or a viewing it not honouring enough to nominate arduous. I found out, I won, I guess it is when I just you know that you're not lights out of shootout, resent it wasn't like you, a ship Helen Cross, rock interpol, one one, maybe levers making. The decision is like this mark TWAIN Mark TWAIN resume oblique but anyways. I gave it a good thirty minutes, a thought I had told you. I had decided, I wouldn't except awry rapid will. I was coming.
replace that it would be healthiest for me to not desire a public accolade and a prestigious a war like. I just thought that it would be healthier for me not to desire or something like that, and what does it mean? I know we're gonna be inconvenient tat. Will that and then I started thinking so I don't believe in it a conceptually for person to be out, it has been brilliant, although it does enjoyed the hell out of watching Shelby right regardless. In this moment I was like I did anything good for me. Health was and then obviously very incomplete. You got a fly. Did you see? I have to get a tuxedo that on three and they never fit. When I try to put him on a going to alter that travel We ve got a package I gotta check. A some dislike Howard Stern now that simple as things for him or so inconvenient, but ain't waging an early wanted. The problem, I wonder if he thought about turning down evolve. Billy have realized tat. I have ever because huge honor well what I've now now having watch the whole thing would have come away with his forget the award. I stand by that
we're just weird: it's we. I did these words. Are we really going to stand by that, but it became a big celebration Chapelle with all these other. We boy love watching and they hear their personal experiences with them. It. It just became a fun trip down his life yap. The reason I brought up there because you're you're, saying two things in opposition to each other. Paradoxical here is saying that shouldn't really be celebrated fur, your brayley and send like its Farwell once again, You are celebrated and I believe that in that celebration, as you have a big audience and people come see, you and you put on a good show their happy. And yet you you're happy with the work and that's that's the movement celebrate. Not that's what I'm saying yes that now and now a committee of people decided that that thing you did was now worthy of this award, I'm a little on the fence about that, but they are also saying you why?
here in your life and the loser. I haven't done any added the loser part. No, no, that's easy, as well as the Anna I'm also going myself a pussy. Now, that's part of the all the old baggage playground. The F word: the Alps are our guy, every every pejorative I can launch and myself. So yours in one hand you're saying: oh, it's just a thing and it doesn't really matter and everyone's do in their thing and who cares thereof in your also been saying? Oh, I haven't done anything of the earth loser and appeared, and enough were, but when I watch. It watching Mandy would you be? taunting yourself of like. Why can't? Why didn't I do what she did? I mean
pretty good about what I'm doing you're doing what I think are drawing plan that you would think you know I know, but I'm just saying like I don't feel complacent ip was still pushing myself and I still have a long way to go. Yes, I'm coming down the mountain, that's the difference between you and I like wanting that thing. What are you kidding myself, the internet thirteen years and become one of the greatest of all time? Why meeting? I wish you had what I currently which is like, but I a la proud of what I'm doing and I like my life. All things are true. I know I know tat for me to I love my life. I've tons of gratitude wrote the work. I do, how an end your data data people around you and you spend it and to you joint fairly fulfilling you're. Not just you know, is it fulfilling
We will all that's it everyday. While I don't know, but when I write it, I'm always get why what is fulfilling nothing? That's not a word! Its filling with the erratum enough, or your enemy for fulfilling his fulfilling a word now is not moving on. But I want you to be. rowdy yourself, and you know why you you have responded. We need to be proud yourself, because there are so many people who would die to be doing what you're doing and clean your position most certainly acknowledge? I'm doing is rediscovering the lesson that I learn. Every few days, which is comparison, is the end of my gratitude and my happiness and all that the thief of happiness. That's that Pinterest Club, you, I can't help but watch him and be jealous So how to quantity is, I feel like I should have. Push harder and Ben better and spent more,
less time off road in a more time. Writing or something would you have no exact? I don't want. You know that the other great iron, no, I know you wouldn't be happier I'm shocked because I'm a jealous person, Simon, I'm surprised I can't relate to and this because when I watch that I don't have need jealousy. I only have all admiration, yeah, we'll have a bunch of that too yeah. I just think he's the cool astute ever a visa. Thirteen on the sole spectrum yeah You might be the high water mark. I believe, like the closer you are in proximity to someone. The more you compare yeah yeah, why it's the imitates, the NBA analogy, which were both in the NBA by a lot of measures, but he, Michael Jordan, and I'm like INA yeah I just think- and I care less about bascombe than undoubted us out hold a lot of water. For you like to me chapels, more impressive than
Jordan, so that I mean I say well I care of. How can you would love to hear that that you should come on stage during that warrant is at one sentence, Deva more impressive than Michael Jordan. I live another like we raise son gave up about this million Alice, but I saw a hope. shit, climate amounts, I'm falling off the other side. Now it is a lot of time left here, another the genome thing and to anti age and then you're gonna take that one sorcerers stone and then you're gonna live forever. great Sedgwick as here's another preposterous thing. I spent about forty minutes this morning. Thinking about
a genome thing? I spent my whole morning thinking about this. My cookies, I'm gonna get this procedure: the inner race, my flawed up a genome, it's gonna start reading, my dna perfectly and I'm gonna be twenty. Ah then, I thought what happens to growth muscle like I've been working. For twenty years at this point and the physical shape of my body is no different than it was in my twenty sky, like train it and have old, growth muscle aware of your live all dead, rigid muscle, that's in there so. I was wondering great I'll have like a youth will phase, but am I gonna be doing I'm saying When I was twenty, my buddy sought in many ways O eyes: yes, like it's two years of training, my muscle memory to respond to exercise in a kind of does now, oh, but it took a decade. Oh that started. Is that gone, and then I started I'd rather look ugly and end? The toy and I spent so much time. General worrying yeah worry.
If that's not a sign that my life's too easy, and I too much mine, I'm like I'm panicking about whether or not my aging reversing procedures can always nor my muscle, mass, my goodness, as it has an unusual Us Chapelle at the same time anyway, splendid Doyle Granite, Yon. Ok, so you said: Abbe is a two time: gold medal winner. She is. I just wanted to give you a boost, women hocker thinks she's in the famous pitcher, where they all right, they're, jerseys off narrower in their sports procedures. What, if of them aware in Sports Brazil's, but one of omens wherein, like a Vicki secret out like lays for ah they maybe it was big enough to she required and actual athletic broad play is this? Why would I wear this big, cumbersome sports bodies, where my lay see vague and then no one talked about what was going to happen and either one of two things could happen either everyone has their tops up, except for her and she is in Jersey, people think she's a prude
bangs at all in season I got lazy. Sexy top neurons in force was ears. Do you Wouldn'T- because I know from being honour sports team, via the hat like you'd, be changing in the locker whenever be putting on their brows, and you wouldn't you'd feel weird you yeah, I am, I think, you'd feel superstitious. I dont think on a team like that. If one person is doing something totally, it doesn't feel good is wouldn't do it there's so much superstition on team. It like we had to stand, x to a specific person. But we would like do our all. You decide one time it worked like ok. Now I have to stand by this person. I've to squeeze our hand twice. I really superstition athletes get real, but you know the worse or these like pictures in the oh yeah, it's tyres, I love is a human, yet is ok, and what is your position forward? Ok, great ok, use of it
I love you gave an announcement elephant. You said ten thousand pounds, so so the african shall event: mass average thirteenth, and power asian elephant, eight thousand eight hundred pounds adjusted an average of the two species are and then african forest elephant, six thousand pound tiny. There is to know there were some pygmy elephants in pig it pardon my departments, hippopotamus hippopotamus on Madagascar. They have, in the bone record, cause all animals on an island succumb to
Asters island principle, so the mammals all get smaller and the birds get bigger. Pickin. Imagine acute pygmy, hip, hop parliament size of a pig is all night in a pig me l of how much loved to have a team of pygmy elephants in the backyard love there. So when we go, we wouldn't do it. Has not nice for them other invented to be pets. Are they invented to be there? don't exist right now, pygmy, elephants, but less said there were the auditing ask in Madagascar. They have them in the archaeological record, but their long extinct and users pig. There were pygmy, Willie Mammas on the channel Islands pitcher a fucking Saint Bernard size, woolly. We mammal your pat beds, Q, our love a little tiny I'll meet when I want, let's have a sadness to them, because you ve seen a more in the dead. Is that why you think they have such a good memory,
is he said. Well, maybe it is why, because I like know that they are retaining all the sad information they never forget they never, for they moved so slowly and you know they're kind of droopy and people are mean to them and ride them and use them as sacred animal into my people. Yeah, ok! So She talks about the story of Eve and how that is sort of ingrained in christian culture and has repercussions I want to jump in there, but I didn't okay. What were you going to say? I was going to say. The thing is so such a thinly veiled metaphor for man's insecurities that he can't please the whole thing is about that eve. Might fuck another dude, that's right! what it is. Don't eve don't have that for me.
Fruit that forbidden fruit, dont, wandered dont, be curious down. It's all men's, deep, deep, deep fear that they won't satisfy their female partner in detail, but it still that mankind, all in all the man wrote the story yeah I was, the other day. I think I told you I was in a meaning and again I apologize her time into any Christians, but I was I was sitting there and, as you know, I was like It's amazing to me that Women have embraced Krishna exited. There's a man God and then oh god, since his son down the planet, are not his daughter. He did not even a daughter the max, is the it's a male god, and then he is a milestone in the mail sun comes out. They all both have all the answers. The big person is of a woman who had to have the baby is a virgin cause. If she wasn't virgin, she beat what a slot like that. I don't. I don't know how it even found purchase in the mind of women, but
that is is new everything. I've ever heard enough time buying into the story and unrepresented your bold to have some perspective because you you're not the want, like we ve on the subject green that yeah everyone's been condition to just be like: ok, ok, yes, yes, but only now, and then people like, I guess, like glutton, I mean that's her whole thing is like. Where the? Why are we do Hinkley? I dont weak, the parcels. They're all. Do every do, there's that women have no role in this religion other than the Mary, I'm just ain't about a woman. I B, I don't. I couldn't even latch on in its all about me, so I don't know how women found their way into that story immediately. Find our way in it. Just that was the store. The story was presented to be Mama, grandma mules, Anima had a Bible, and I looked at the pictures and EDGAR Sunday School and I had to do the prayers and the whole time. Just like I'm, not term. This isn't resonating with me, but women.
I have not been able to say this is weird: it's a rare woman to be Walter step outside this patriarch Gambia like this is fucked up around rooms. Here, it's easier to just fallen line and you Now things are starting to change. I think it's fantastic that things are starting to it's hard and it's slow with the text itself, though it is what it is, I'm never going to update the Bible and add female characters to it. But I'm just saying if I'm passing on a religion to my two daughters here's, a religion? It's all about man, the only ones that were smart they're, the ones that new there were speaking to God there they aren't. You know in got em the guy too so, like I've, never been Like my doors, we, like you you show me religion that involves me and maybe I'd be interested in the air, but you also have to like look at the history of this country. It also doesn't involve women and you're, not gonna, say well. I guess
rejects that history, like it I mean that is what's happenings of people are like whoa. This is all messed up. There has not been a women represented and so lightly known at the foundation of all. This stuff route, BS So to me that makes sense will make sense. Is the last seventy five years of our where women increasing bearing on all now, while we in offices of government debts logical to me some unborn and ninety. Ninety, whose presented this story and women have no role in it. I dont know how the its attractive to them But there are so many details of religion, so their province, focusing so much on the lack of women. There are mere asking on all the other components as seem positive and that I think there are positive things in religion refer, of course, they would not
you're, going on for two thousand years, if it didn't have some major benefits: people's life yeah and it's just modeling. It's just that kid goes to church because the pay, and go to church and a lot of people just take things at face value and they take it based on whatever their parents. doing. In many people are fed to believe that that's the keyed Toby good person, you're, being told that you have to follow this or you'll get all off track and more yonder been Hell annual. hell. Yeah and, however shitty life is on planet earth were a woman or in Heaven it's gotta, be absolutely the worst in Hell. Yeah give resume, we only get worse, but I just remind me when she was talking about it. There's a Sarah Borelli Song called armor, that's so good, it's a female at them, than Theirs but the song is let it
again let Adam in step. One original sin underneath the leaves Adam found the eve both of them found something sweet under the apple tree. Then it was over roads divide step to learning had Alai. Let me ask a question too: present day how the hell did you end up with all the damned Blaine? I think you are I think I can. I can still see the photo in my little kids bibles yet see my shoes. The bite me look nervous. Any well yeah. So she gets a lot of shit yeah, so Christian said that Buddhist say if a bus is about to. Somebody you'd move. You showed that person out of the way not for their sake but because it be like the bus was hitting you tube, is everyone's one and could not find that research. The din ring a bell whenever, when I was your well that's up play on words. I didn't remember that yeah
but I don't know maybe there's something they learned at the good place because they did a lot of philosophies. So I'm I'm not saying it's true. I just did not find it, but then I do I find that there was an article in the Atlantic and a few other about what would Buddhist said to the trolley last year that the trial- the Dalai, the trolley law. Only by Allah, money according to theirs is Harvard professor. Maybe yet he had a thesis student hoop the question to Buddhist monks in Northern India like a lot of them. How did they spawned the majority of monks, said they would push the person off the bridge. In this case it was a bridge, same scenario they kill one to save many days. look at it as a matter of compassion.
Course killing. Someone is a terrible thing to do, but if your intention is peering, you're really doing it for the greater good and you're not doing it for yourself or your family, that could be justified. Just Thinking back vat, the greek mythology had female gods. Yet many so we regressed in some way. Oh yeah, I mean in a lot of ways. I wonder who taught you know one of its comment on even the way you watch the ebbs and flows of world politics like theirs for the last five years, This huge, populous movement globally in that society just ebbs and flow like that, like a constricts and it expands and again serve than its progressive, and I just wonder if Christianity's exact time, was in a retrograde of some big progressing expansion- and that was the reply- outside of norms, curious on them on the the law,
Term Timeline. What why why that religion, then good it all females and when there were ones before that have included them. It's been an awful long time for that to still be the reigning philosophy, which it is oh yeah, yeah yeah now isn't it weird thing like, but there's gonna be so much time after us, and while I hope and who knows what that will look like ours Time is going to look like? the role of men like them or what Europe than on time. At some point, you are what you hope is that we look like either the enlightenment, the renaissance or the birth of the greek democracy We all that stuff. You hope that were in a period that a look back on favourably. I don't know how lyrics be alive to know now, That's all, that's all how well I love you. I love you
see you in Hell.