Heather McGhee is an American political commentator, political strategist, currently a distinguished senior fellow and former president of Demos, a non-profit progressive U.S. think tank. Heather sits down with the Armchair Expert to discuss race in America - her takeaway from going to a white school but living in a black neighborhood and her theory that racism comes at a cost to all races. Dax asks about the economic impact of systemic racism and Heather talks about her epiphany watching Black Panther. They talk about colorism, the history of police interfacing with the black community and the hope of change.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome welcome, welcome armchair expert experts on expert, I'm dyin shepherd. I'm Joe by Monica monsoon. Now you know we had a line up this week, we're ve, never Lioness Mercer. On Monday in we didn't do that. You wrote a beautiful thing, explaining that and then we had another expert of course scheduled for today, but we changed that out with a more relevant expert to what's happening right now or on the country in sponsor George Floyd and the police brutality we have had their Magee Heather is someone who has worked with economic policy and the government level. She was the president of De Mouse she's, a you, see, Berkeley LAW, school graduate and has a ba from Yale, and she has a wonderful perspective, and I really really really urge everyone to watch her TED talk, which is in Hidell racism has a cost for everyone and armed Jerry's. Please watch racism has a cost for everyone.
three thousand view shy of a million, and I think that US armchairs can get hurt the two million. That's my goal for her and for us. So please check racism has a cost for everyone on Youtube. This will be the first of many progress that we're going to dedicated to this issue, as we try to work more and figure out what we can do to help you I wanted to be a big firms. that last for a couple weeks and then fades away as they usually do. We want this to be a continued conversation, so we are going to be part of that solution yes, we're, gonna, be exploring inviting and trying to prolong this conversation for the foreseeable future, whether its extra episodes or more experts, I'm I'm lean towards ex always like more content and will continue to talk about this issue so please enjoy other Magee. She has a lot of proof. things are saying, we really appreciate her making the time when a lotta people want to talk to her so thing
so much in. Please enjoy Hummocky he's. Hello guy. They don't my five year old sets the microwave on fire. Just leaving the house. He hoped that their homes really suffered. So I was scrambling with rags with my wife train in the house, yeah yeah yeah, I am having them damn. I guess. Maybe she was protests team. You are you so busy right now, it's ok. easy. I am also on top of everything my book that I'm writing that is actually already available per for pre over their dirty little secrets. Not quite time cover some of us what racism ass everyone and how we can prosper together said manuscripts on Friday. So I my oh, my God, awhile
all nighter college type of mode right now, but also this other thing is happening in the country is weak, and so I'm just choosing very wisely where I get my voice, so I'm so glad to be with you guys, and I'm really glad you caught now. Talking to someone else who is writing a book and, of course there, various she was. It didn't address, cove it. So they have this book. That would now seem preposterous to have not included covered, but he gets printed and likewise, I imagine you find yourself in the same situation where, like you, you couldn't possibly not address, what's happening hour and then we're is it end now it's really true It's weird, you know when I first started writing a book as recline do not have a boom, we you'd him. You did. I came up together, relax in want of the same age, and he was. I don't write a book in, of course, these red mud I thought. You know really articles and podcast. That's how people consume things- and you know that's really the way of the future
he's totally write em you now. If it was an article or podcast it'll be fine, I can t get out pivot, like you didn't like. Let's talk about this this week, but I can't write em like as in this Friday, I have to say the story ends now. We don't know how to There again, we don't know how their protest end, but the story, and now in Europe round you from outside of Chicago and then going to boarding school in Massachusetts. Yes, I would is a really precocious kid and my parents were divorced in my mom's work took her travelling out of our house near multiple nights a week, and so the year my brother went to college anyway, you my mom was sort of like went. Do do enough, there's only so many babysitters so much in air and water.
A white woman who was on a nonprofit bored with her, was like you know. We have this thing. We call boarding school driver had it all in our power, but yes, I was eleven years old when I went away to boarding school, all white town and there were only handful backwards in the school, and I want them hasn't seventh grade NOS eleven good friend, of mine, Joy Bryant. She had a similar experience where she was in the Bronx for much of the year and then out in Connecticut, something that a boarding school mankind of yet to vastly different worlds, that for her, sometimes felt like she ended up belonging to neither yet again did you find yourself at all like constantly clicking back and forth, or roads which are leading to create any confusion. Yeah I mean childhood is confusing
here s, babes identity is confusing period. There are these stories that you're told I was born on the south side of Chicago lived on the far side. From most of my childhood, but actually for two or three years for we went a boarding school. We actually move to an integrated, suburban and north of the city and Evanston. So now First, that I got from like a ninety eight percent black neighbourhood too, majority way, but really integrated school. First time I went to like its houses and had snacks afterwards, where there was a nanny and they like how this exact trade as a maximum of two yet area up and down, and so I started there, you know, and then I went to the superior way boarding school. I think what it taught me was there was none. Really different about the great or the smarts or at the discipline
any of those families right mother, my family, which was sort of fragile, class, the families in my neighborhood, the families. My my mother work with the she worked in Social, policy in my mom's moms, who are on welfare and living in public housing, and you know now in the wake of the big houses in the fancy snacks, it was just like these are all kind of the same merit the food they, whereas individual cinema think there were the same people, in other words a cultural differences but but there was no hierarchy and I really just didn't believe the okey doke like I just didn't. I remember I get him by that. Someone was better because they have more money, and I think that the real gift that my childhood gave me yeah. Yeah. I too went to friends houses and I was like you wait. Frozen pizza explaining misdemeanour-
it's so interesting when you leave your bubble in your hike? Oh, I didn't realize until this moment that we have a lot less than a lot of people. That's an interesting realization! gave me an inferiority complex. It's very easy for me to feel less than I will blame the other people I'll be like. I hate rich snobby people above above intrude on very prone to feel less than its lessened, obviously, but yeah just unfair fortunately is Ben- is a part of my core. It's really real in I've been thinking a lot. As I've been waiting this book work that I do trying to build political our to change our economy in democracy and make it more fair. I think a lot about the stories were told in the stories we believe and you know fundamentally, the american story, which is a white dove store it. But it's told to all of us is that there is a hierarchy of human value, there's some groups of people that are just better than others, and
means that individuals span their whole lives trying to figure out where they are and that scale and We have this very zero sum approach right where, if someone else is on the up and up it might be coming at our expense. Rita S, just a lie. You know it's really alive, there's enough to go around. In fact, the more react like there's, not you know the more. We all suffer, that's really the appointment of the book, I'm working on, which is that there are costs of racism to everyone that our whole system is horror, economic. please, spiritually, environmentally because of this belief in a higher can human value, but I think it gets deep into our psyche. Like I'm an economic policy person, I'm not a psychologist. This is not like what I do, but I've got to this field of research, because, unlike you know what ultimately we make it
big economic decisions as a society, but we support them and we both for people because of what we believe at our core, and so we ve gotta, get in under the skin yeah. Just start by saying, I've never been nervous to do an interview thus far not been shouldn't be here was warned that many times I just arrogantly did excellent addition very good point for obvious reasons. I certainly do not want to say something incorrectly by dont offend anyone. I dont want to appear to be defending the status quo and within all that my nature is to challenge some of the current assumptions of what the problem is versus. What the cause is causality, I'm into stayed in the very big big picture in general, and I'm always are very interested in how far upstream can we get to solve this problem?
right and so your focus being on the economy. I appreciate a lot because there are so many variables in this situation and I'd like to explore men the animals of fearful. To do that, Are you asking you to feel tat further? The white guy I'm the same. The stakes are high, and I'm gonna try my darndest three addressing and nervousness real, quick sure, because I do think it a big feeling right now is like I don't want to, make any mistakes or even though this is just like them, the most trivial example. specific everyone today is doing blackout Tuesday and One was posting a black picture on there. Stu Gram and a bunch of No sorry at last night, so I put my last name ever. Was posting hash type, black lives matter? And then I wake up this morning and I would like oh, my god, move the hashtag delete your post, its messing with the algorithm, take it out, repose blackout, two's
and I was like- oh my god, and then it feels Hague it blew up. There is so much blood on your hands, no Mamma and first about to be I am also like. Is this even something we should be doing at that? The whole point was for us to be talking in speaking up and standing now. We're likes quote silent element, understandably the point of this, but there is really no lead so there's no one posting anything saying ok, this is what you do tomorrow. This is what you don't do tomorrow, and people are just making big decisions there's because my mom is starting to get involved, which of course, for a lot of us is like. Yes, thank you. Fleets of the whole like underlying issues that we don't understand, so that those gonna be so many mistakes? And I get scared, so the logically for people who are we're like ok, I made a mistake. I can fix it. I can whether that, but some people again from Georgia who, unlike if they did, that they would just delete the postern Billy
I can't I'm I'm. I'm all knew it. You know it like scares me that it's gonna sway people away you're. So I think, there is so much in mass. So first of all like the highest upstream. Maybe that's what you're saying I think in general on it how do we get right and solve racial justice and reorder our society in a way that is commensurate with our values? What we are suffering from, is in many ways another part of that White american story, which is very individualistic if everyone sort of like go to the marketplace and like what you want and do your own thing, whereas this country needs. racism wasn't invented and, unlike individual shopping, cart likeable way, racism was invented as a total economic political and ideological system by the most powerful and then it was infused in all of our laws and Oliver
You'd have social interactions through law has rightly said. I am literally not allowed to sell a black person. My house is in the contract. I am not allowed to sit in that part of the bus, I'm not allowed to go to school with that person. So if these wild land land this person money as a banker yeah exactly so this like individual ideas and yet we ve left that ask of solving. I think now to a very sort of like weird free market, individual consumerist way, whereas I believe strongly that what we need is something like what representative Lee and others introduced yesterday in Congo such is the resolution calling for a truth, racial healing and transformation commissioned by countries that have had many fewer years of Cultural and racial strife have gone through these types of things where aid is an official process. It says these are the facts. We're gonna put it I the lies- I wouldn't stop. You know this whole
weird thing that happens in the south, where we say it was a glorious lost, causes right, we're gonna, sort of rewrite, come up with a history that is due to our communities, people can do it on a community level and we're going to go through. all of our laws and practices and say this is how we write the stream. I think we need that leadership, not from individual person as much as I love and miss I wonder whether the Brok Obama, you know, I think we need that kind of thing and then Question I think, Monica that you're raising around this would have like tip toe wing in the fear. I think I'm a really empathetic person, and I really hear you and I sometimes fuk up on issues of race right issues of some other time very sympathetic to the to the fear, but at the same I'm back fear is think that with practice you move in. Mean Robin Jail Angelos book white fragility is the number one book on Amazon today for a reason. Right, because my view,
actually the story has told me, particularly in our generation for so long to not think about race, and that a good thing to do is to not talk about rights and not think about race and say that you don't see race color by near color, blind, technic, impossible. Ideological irish! You know that there is so much stress built up, because this is not the exercise of moving through racial conflict and hiccups, which is like my whole life as a black person ways like I have more of a muscle to be able to move through it. Even when I step in it- and that's the beauty is coming out on the other side of that there is a grace that comes from serve messing up and then what covering and learning. If you don't let them, moment. Stop you from doing what's right, you still have to keep doing what's ray, you know and that's the deal the stakes yeah, so I was sure tat.
but you point out which I think would be helpful. If just it easy to think that white folks aren't suffering from racism are that the bill doesn't come do for them. You have a very interesting, take on the await melt down, and I personally have a huge fascination and await melt down just based on the fact that The loans really totalled some tens of billions and then the now. Instruments or products had built a top that one point: nine trillion dollars in credit default swaps, all these things that are just horse but all on the back of this list. Colonel of misleading lending practices, and so you just yet kind of workers through we paid a humongous price for racism, so I and I got into the field of economic policy, because I really just care that
more people have a better shot and a decent life and that quickly took me to the rules of our economy, which, at the time where I started working at demons, the think tank that I worked out for a long time and then ran for four years. The issue of the day was dead and it like all about somebody really huge indifferent, is happening right now. You know how we issue mortgage loans and my credit card that has tripled over the past ten years and got all these who student loans at what is happening, and so we researching got into air and what became clear was that do you? regulation has created this wild west of lending companies. Banks are acted and funded by in a big, was reached trading firms like leaving bear and golden all that, and what they have done in the mortgage market was said. Okay, This entire, basically new said. the market, since we ended rebel
meaning and red lining is where the government The federal housing authority should set up in the new deal, but Peter exists today, which back stops mortgages, which is how banks sort of give them out freely is because there is a backstop that there our government will ensure the loud if it goes back. That insurance was predicated on not lending in black neighborhoods. They literally drew maps of the country in the thirties and It is an kept updating them and these red areas do not land and the. With the areas were black people left because back and we were soon to be a credit risk- was no data, for that is just black people, our credit risk. so, when we finally stop doing that, and basically the late seventies, their became a new mortgage market for mortgage lenders, which was like we actually want to learn to lend to these people before. So, let's led to the mouse those links ten years where even starting homeowner surprising, the black community and then
the deregulation happened, and they really wait. We can lend anything. We can do we don't have to do like a thirty year, fixed rate home loan that we keep on our books and like likewise in it with the into the end. We can actually just like me Porsche as he sat up and it was like will, if we're gonna, try that let's try it out first in these communities where we know frankly that no with the power to stop us is really paying attention and watching a carrot going out that too. That probably the most desperate group too, is far. Is economic inequality in the need for cash in flux and all that, so that's right, right that people who didn't actually have anything to fall back on, and so they did need loans, but this is the key and Missus Ware and my ted I can in my book. I really want to make this intervention in the way we think about. It is are less about Financial crash was that the loans were too risky bar is right to people who
couldn't have otherwise afforded alone, and so that's why they were sort of we order and more expensive there's like pawnshop versions of mortgages, which they were, but the majority of people who were sold these sub prime land, this sort of pawnshop versions of learns that were more expensive and hired a pair and had weird fees had good credit. They actually qualified the cheaper, normal love, but its salesman was just going to take you- and I think there is some misconception that people without sought these yet and in fact so off there is sitting at home, some a knock on the door, and they said you could be pain, way less and the same amount. Man didn't really. Articulate that in ten years, you'll have a balloon payment and there will be no interest, but then I'll go to seven, team presented all these things right. I love is that nobody knows that gambling baggily. What happened is exactly what happened and so you had black hormone strikes the very
people who had been denied property for so long whose ancestors were considered property after, like basic half a generation, someone knock on the door and just steals it, and I was in those fight in the early today, I wasn't, and I saw just the stereo that the regulators had and the bank executives have never to survive books. You know these people the idea good with money, and they should have read the fine print. And so what happened was these? Were money, making printing money for lenders, unregulated lenders and then Wall Street was Wait, I'm sorry we can get what we're time. This is what so the interests alone? a man may have this whole exactly. As you said, they added these crazy
incitement to sort of inflate the betting capacity on any of these loans, but then it escaped from the black and brown neighborhoods where people were already starting to lose their houses, and then those mortgages were sold all around the count two white people and they were interest only arms and it was upper middle class people paying for college and You know how the story ends and for that for me, as an example, how racist, discriminatory lending right these these firms were fined for discriminatory lending later after the fact went unchecked by a government that just couldn't stop seeing black and brown homeowners as irresponsible and a credit That's right. The same ideology, the same worldwide that created regulating at first place, hadn't left. and then everybody ended up losing nineteen trillion dollars and last wealth and millions of jobs. Millions of why people lost their jobs needs why people lost their home the man, the foreclosures, the majority of them were white people, and so,
That's why I think that this is zero sum. This idea, that the story that I think is aggressively soul to wait. Americans are whole history that the most virulent version of it was our early version right was was, actually you can profit off the pain of people of color through slavery like that sexual we have set their own labour into your benefit. Yes, it's very direct right. That's what this year, some story came from. That's the economic system that it held up Jack is to let the slave do less work meant the slave owner was gonna, do more work, that's a pretty simple equation to understand you. You feed these people. More, that's out of your pocket actually make them grow their own food when they get back to their cabins. Archimedes really like it was a very direct, zero sum, but as my research programmes working on the book. That was good for them. plantation owners, but there were still fell.
Britain's tens of thousands of way people living who didn't own, the plantation immense you didn't, have a lot of work to do, because the only jobs like the labour economy of the Anti Bellum South was for a black free labour There was nothing for the way sort of yeoman person who didn't own alive, and so I think it's, always been alive. It's always been a lie to serve a very narrow banned. The other and your story in the TED Talk and then the book is, I think, more the place we are in right now, which is so I talk about going to Montgomery Alabama, where, in the forties, there was a poor that was like the heart of the town. Is the oak park in the middle of the town. It had a zoo, it had a swimming pool. It was sort of Vienna was the the heart of this town and it was for waits only and
when a desegregation order came down from the court's effective January. First, nineteen fifty nine town decided to close the entire park system rather than integrated. They drained the public swimming pool, rather than let black family swim to they sold off the animals. In the zoo I mean it's ridiculous making. That's where we are now. Our countries is poor Our government has less capacity because there's fear a sort of sharing across the line of color yeah. You The great point to say, like the bullet been paid for by black citizens, as well as paid for with tax money, and they were not allowed to use it and then ultimately, every single person suffered and unknown to benefit of it stay too. If you dare We are supported by stamps dot com for all our sakes. We need to avoid crowds anyway. We can right now, but what if we need to go to the Post office, Monica what I do
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The dangerous line so because I am an hour cannot be. It was enough. say I am not making any kind of equivalency comparison, I'm not saying that it anywhere on par, but I am saying quite often when we talk about this. I happened to be from a very white teeth, ass area, where I am in our view, you can, you say, poor wiping. Maybe I don't think we'll know rather its relevant because that white trash? Yes, then by sound, is a label had a label had an expectation had a frequency of getting pulled over when you're driving through my town. You look at the side of the road. It wasn't that nice car it was always the piece of shit cars. All this to say when I viewed fifty sand and I his story. When I interviewed tee, I I heard his story. I actually thought my best for an air weekly has waned. In common with tip in fifty. Then he does
in a lot of people I interviewed owing to say I think, there's so much more brotherhood in economic disparity that exists now there is a huge of your skin element and denying it, and once I can say for myself, you I came from that but still I walk into Starbucks and a black eye walks in Starbucks different outcome. I can transcendent way easier, but I do think is a lot of shared struggled among just the lower income people. You now, then Maybe we recognise, I agree, and I think that that reality of shared struggle and the potential for shared fight against the people were actually setting the rules to make it so hard for way? Black brown- and everybody else who are working class to get ahead. Why you- have the persistent reinvention of racism for every generation, because you just described a sort of an echo in a world in which you know you're at it
of the social hierarchy or your poverty is visible. Your definitely dont have the opportunities, don't have the financial cushion to fall back on college is then price, out of reach now, even though its, ticket to the middle class, you have to be middle class to be able to afford it. It's like this. Is the system were em right now and the thing that makes, I think, o away working class person? not completely. In the same chooses a black brown working class person is the police state there that that is. The difference where the police state of immigration or the police state of criminal justice and policing, and that's why this is where there is so much pain and Google that very old no ability of the state, snatched away your life that
is three times is likely to happen. If you are black, then if you wait, no matter what your income and That is where also and this is where I think we need to understand It's better. You know I put myself in the shoes re. If, if I had the privilege of not having that fear of Having my son have that fear of a toddler joy, not having my son of beer enough, I had that privilege, I would put some value on it right because it's the safety of my son and hears I think we misunderstand privilege, because we act like privileges, something that is what both shouldn't have right. You shouldn't have white privilege, but that's not because you shouldn't have the privilege of feeling, like you, can walk down the street without being shot by the cops. You shouldn't you be privilege, because everybody should have that privilege. Yes, yes, quite
in one? This topic comes up, I always say like. I think a lot of people are thinking about it wrong, which is we. Our goal should be that people give that up. The goal should be that everyone has that, like that's the gold, yet a challenge that zero sum notion. That of if you somehow this group in having the same privilege, you do that you won't have it either it's like now. Everyone should have it I also tried to make the distinction when we talk about white privilege cause it does trigger so many people, because they think that phrase means if your white, you are a privilege, person, I always say no just fundamentally in this country being white, is a privilege. We have all these boxes of privilege and light is a really big one and you get to check the box. If your way it doesn't mean Europe red sure you haven't just immediate opportunity or whenever it just means. You know in that vein.
of the kids racing across the line. Like you are a few steps forward, starting out based on nothing you ve done, That, based on nothing that you ve done, is a really important point because part of the the way story that is sold in other people. sort of choose to buy or not re interested by, some parts of it are not a part of the White story and part of where the privilege becomes problematic is if you believe that you are in this place of security from hell, because something you ve done. You deserve anymore I remember I was shopping. My book proposal around TAT table the way editors and agents and stuff like that miss one person would like you to read. The book proposal was like, But you know I want you to know. Basically, I'm a good way person when we started reading it out. I love Tiger Woods and Obama just want to let you know I've loved Tiger Woods and Obama
and she said you know my my father- fought for civil rights right. She also wanted me to know that there are no skeletons in her closet right. She said, I think the white people in the past. You discriminated were evil as like nothing choosing like. Let's get into this right eye, absolutely did evil things, but its very they for you to think that you would have thought they were evil back then part of the white story. Right is that we are good. There's is a way story version of slavery. That is these people, are savages in such heathens get them into our productive society is good for them yeah there. We're gone all you think they were better off in the jungle being attacked by a lion. That's you think. That's an improvement yeah by the way.
we get into this debate all the time about in and allay. If you just look at whose doing the work, I know a lot to talk about it, but the only people to work or Latinos yet- and I say all the time- we're gonna look back on this I'll have so many people who know what they left. Mexico is much worse there and they came here and I might be yes, but you understand that the identical argument to the slave owners- you just can't deny that people will justify any that by comparison, somehow it's an improvement, but it stopped short of going well. Why don't you have to do that work? You know, there's there's something to be answered there and you may if it were being paid fifty bucks an hour, and then you know that a year the year to your pointing out the dehumanization, it's actually essential its assent, So for someone who thinks there a good person because they know when their heart. They know one some cellular level while this things wrong, I'm not an evil person. So, what's my justification for why this is happening? Well,
X, Y and Z. It's an improvement over their life. It's actually it's it's the trying to make peace with. Probably being a good person and participating in something, that's not good gives us so much cognitive, dissonance and discomfort that we must come up with an explanation, they can be very far reaching or some of them are kind of plausible. You know they vary in their absurdity, and that's a criminal justice system has allowed to be maintained because it's like well what they do literally saying well, there's someone who's, judging whom I've agreed The judge good versus that which is the criminal justice system, the cops, the judges and they judge this person to be bad or to invent something that, and so the question is what they do right past. Justification, and I think right now what were seeing as tens of thousands People are being indiscriminately pepper spray. And tear gas for
fighting constitutional rights they liquid. This is how the police tree and see you and it's a huge wake up call for White Americans on the streets right now who are actually subway suffering physical harm by the people not were actually pretty good arbiters of who was good and who was bad, but I will are you the same things happening again right now, which is all of the White Americans. who implicitly now it's not a fair game. We know what everyone knows it. It's not a fair game. We have escaped go at this moment, which is the police, so now we're all pointing at the police, and I am not defending police autonomy ultra clear, I am I'm not defending police, but it's kind of convenient that the whole problem is police.
And that's the encompassing thing I want to talk about, which is when you're born black you, you have less access to good education. You have less access to meaningful employment. You are targeted by shitty credit card. Your targeted. By, They longed your targeted by alcohol and sing. you're targeted by all these corporations is machine. Creating disadvantage, and then the results of that right once you're a twenty three year old mail. In the result of that, The last interface, for that is the police. So there, the this down river in the equation in what could be a very short young man or woman's life. And so the last stop? Is the police which is fucked up? It is fucked up the reaction to the police them killing. Between two and four times the amount that they're killing white people all undeniable, but also incomplete, in my opinion,
Any sense like we'd love to just go the problem in Turkey, you're right now is racist cops great. Let's solve that! we haven't solved anything. We ve solved the last stop of it in a hundred terrible things at all happen to young black men. It is one what you hundred, but have no illusion that if we have the perfect utopian police department, our problems, on this, but I wanna be specific about what the problem is. With you price Latona weapon Let's keep talking about what you said at the end, so. I think I where do the white stories actually that black people our problem and it was I gladly- where problem before for like really explicitly racist reasons and now, in our day, it's evolve to black people are the problem because, as things you know outside of their control, probably like no poverty, and
aggregation about schools and all of that, but they were still a problem. so that's why I want to make sure that we're both recognising that That is itself not true. right that there is actually so much more research in strength. innovation, hustle grit achieve and in the black community than even in the white level. Imagination. First, but second, I wish that the cops came ass, sort of the end? The problem is the cops: are there like? You know, what kids are having their first bad interactions with a compliment plank kick ball before that it itself the experience of being suspicious and having those terrible interactions with someone who's holding a gun was a case we do in here itself. Could
its anti social, you know desires. You wanna shrink away from the state from other people from white people. They show from voting from government services. You shrink away because your Siena suspects, I don't think they're just it are expressing the actions that are political structure sing in order that restructure and accepted on some levels by the majority way. People who continue to vote and not to make a partisan but as a measure of we'd, have wrought Linda Johnson, signed the Civil Rights act right. So I think that
discussing and horrifying the trade black people with the pandemic right. It was like fur for a whole host of reason. exposed because of work and poverty and racism by not having health care by not having health the hospital and Philip we're gonna, be discriminated against by the person behind a desk by the doctor, and all of that right, like bothering DOW, really quickly to the painting, it's really relevant to say right now is like the people who became opiate, attics disproportionately affected White Americans because
wait story, which is their black people, don't actually like our skin a stickler or something we are literally feel put away. downplay the virus and then really source tell, let's open up. Let's get this economy going. I've got an election to when you know once it was clear that to die in to get sick, and so it's just are being told so vividly right now with he's killer. of a time when you know
and so many of us know, people who have lost their lives and because of things that could have been prevented could have been prevented. we assume that black children are yeah nominal right? They may be they there you're. What I shall do you know the isolation that I don't I'm severe my connection, this unstable three minutes, whether or not it was a crappy Monica set array shall slurred towards me now. Also it yeah yeah. She did
I doubt that you now on the product of those white male matron Erika, it's not my fault. Let's go back and so, if any sense is something that sort of belongs to whiteness, then the white, and and then support. Three strikes, that then changes people's lives. Ok, now that this is now,
of the data says that interactions with police resulting shootings by police that interacting with police actions is gonna increase the outcome of a shooting or killing at the hands of a police officer. So are gonna be. honours that reality is part of the problem. In what would you say to the people there that are going to point that out cause they're gonna point that up selling for sure he knew I grew up in a part of the country and thus at Chicago that I don't recognize any more because it in our prisons and jails and
haven't read the New Jim Crow bombshells Alexander. It would be remiss I haven't memory of before the war on drugs, they were saying were not actually going build more prisons because the criminals but it doesn't work. We know that jail in prison doesn't work. What it's really good at is making more crime means that we now know we're about political and social control. The Nixon administration came up with the idea of a. going to be part of his electoral coalition
There is also the point that, in an area that is chronically the job, drift away, traded away and sent to places where their brown people common new economic system that is not blessed by the state we're going up in the marriage rates going down in the people. Turning to drugs is happen.
actually started closing you know ten, fifteen years later, it's not something about black people, it's something about the conditions. biological level. exactly
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and that's why, when we talk about way Miss, I actually really. No. I know it's a really popular me too high a level of like critical race theory literacy when we're talking to people try to get them on board, because you know something that When I say whiteness, I dont mean like your skin, as a black person, Monica is brown person. with in your community want to be as light as possible because you want to be given as much benefit of the doubt as
close, you are two white- is how much benefit of the doubt you get walking through life. I was watching that documentary dark girls and it was like unity as well. I mean it's across all the communities of color, where you feel That's so well said Monica no! I mean we are talking about stories here, so it is an internalize story and for what
what area of ending a dork or a nerd, I'm not sure which, but we'll think we'll call a representative above groups and see who is absolutely effective so that it has really- and besides I m fantasy as really into other worlds subjects hours, and then The scene where two black women characters to black black and they were literally that save the day and eyes are crying music? Haven't you or movie live what is happening and it was big
So when I talk about the White story like if you have been met that gives you a way to walk through the world. That is the way people are good, their human, their multi dimensional. There there, the star, yeah, my wife, that message like people are capable of greatness our man yet Trevor Noah's had something really interesting about policing, because I do think we think of it as like their over policing black people, but he was.
stuff is going down in the black lenient they're, not there. yeah when they call my one one. It's like ten times the length, and yet there are getting suddenly heads more internal violence, because there is a lack of value of one another in themselves. I do think it's important that It has to show that way in levels, if not more as black and brown kids commit crimes than native born
criminalize the police we criminalize border, art and I think it's a really important that we realise that there is an We just have to really really imagine what a future would be like- and this goes back to your point- Dax
That's really what it comes down to and that's what I think is what wearing a mask is being interviewed by CBS and she is talking to the reporter They were just two were shot and she as a person with metal and who was on the street, who had been
for continuing to fire on them, even though they were saying you know where you got who was lying on the ground injured was home. was recounting the store, ensures so ashamed that she ran right in that moment and then, the frame c and start to hear people shouting Netteke medic about somebody else and for I got a go and she goes into yet another was so moved by. I mean name.
but at the same time I felt like I saw in that like two minute clip the whole thing right her. going to do the right thing and then leave Standing and staying in solidarity with that man who was bleeding out on the street an unjust ending. to distance to deflect turn to justify, and we know how to do that, and yet biting way. People to solidarity and the choice can be made all the time and has been so are being met with increasing police for him,
Asian native american people are still out there, and it is so beautiful I believe that I have said this before in here, but to your point about the criminality and door. Ten years, I just thought I was lucky. I thought man I'm so lucky I never got caught with me. I didn't get caught with this. I fuckin bought cracked and as AIDS who are sober. They all went to prison for that. They all went to jail. They ought they got stopped in search all the time. I didn't stop and search. If, if there was a questionable thing, I was given the benefit of the doubt and just the recognition that why did the
blinds, but I felt lucky. I don't never thought that are just glaring that we, I think one of the most common ones that frankly you described in I've. I've spent created and so economically such a clear hierarchy. another world in the black neighbourhoods, and you know what white people on the front of the house, and lets you, man,
you try to treat him like the bartender and he's ignore, not the bartender, that's job, like segregation that has nothing to do with anyone's capacity or even language skills or whatever it's just a racist another blind spot. Is you know when we look at b the highest hotspots just the original sin of don't acknowledge the land were on that way. We don't listen when
it like not have the nations You don't need that money. Wouldn't you know the other demands which are? Please protect our water because hello, it's also for you. It's up. Whizzing yourself is what they're saying to us. You know so I think there's it's a well when you talked about the benefit of the doubt when we're just gonna go through our lives, and we don't want to be dealing with this any more than you do, but
a set of concerns and demands to the broader political structure. That's a lie, and yet it's nice in this democracy. If you're saying this, it's probably worth acting on and they like to be going on their lives. People don't wanna, be out in the street. People, don't wanna, be camping. still just not giving that multiracial that's happening. You see, keep going back and forth on social media or there's people you will find the ones that are negative
people have areas, people looting and not the protesters aren't looting theirs. That can be edited in any numerous ways to tell the incentives to hay
securing making CNBC like a business persons Fox NEWS as I crave. call it a cable news, even though you know I'm absolutely part of the cable whose infrastructure, at least for now, in that I you know, I go on to be over contract, would then be seen and give my opinions. So what like. Even throughout this conversation, we ve been talking in majority terms with them. Like you know, the majority implacable too, Not that into protest at which is the american people right does not France, where, like every time you get off the mantra, there's another man and you spend more than a year on a strike than you do at work. I write
Miami of broken windows of looting. Is that crazy too? how's that architectural landscape, which is like big bucks or is the crazy first to see them being violated yes, but the other thing. That is the story. If I would say there is a secondary story to the fact that you have people of all races coming and screaming into existence. Is the fact that
we most of the time but really violent repression I mean to grass, is a very violent held, and I think it's going to shape a generate. ass to your gas and Flash banned, a peaceful protest to make sure
strange set up. Where was holding a Bible upside down, I mean I never felt young and hold this book now moving the bucket fuck, all the rest of my plan. I just now if it over. Here I mean it was like aruji ainly delicious on an embarrassment level It wasn't a sword, it wasn't a gun, it was a Bible and its because to us his a city that the archdiocese of the city of D c and D, why are you here
an enemy out of your own people, had set the american Army, who spoke to fight our enemies on Americans exercise. He was trying to communicate something to certain people on. I didn't click with ask as we're not there do. You know, segregation academies in the growth of the religious re after integration, which said in our actually the White trivial who he was talking to us. Why that symbol was there there was gonna say earlier. When you were telling the story about the medic, it
Pictures of like I know the daily covered a little story of at one of the protests, the ground there putting him in handcuffs and one of the copse put his knee on the guy's neck and every one of courses bizarre mix of lake. there's some tiny bit of hope in the progress of the fellow cop was like no, not not not anymore,
showed that there was a better way document. My TED talk, which is called bases and has a cost for everyone. The argument of my book, which is about the costs of racism to us, are called the some of us is not like the down. that and I France story, it is actually to see for myself the blacks fundamental interdependence because we had to be. This was the case at source and loved ones, and so I grew up with a sense of community that was just the way I am
more crises and more pandemics and more climate disasters come like we're going to need each other and the people who think they can do it alone or going to be the ones left out, and so I do believe that big white american story, that you know, we all right society is gonna, continue to spiral and dysfunction until we get right by it,
in finishing my book, I'm not launching any documentaries, but you may I inquire at eight. I was a bad question where we live shit. It's it's Craig, but we were midway through it, and I was like you know on the surface, is: is a story of a paddle file whose very rich and empowered yeah, but might take away? Was Inequality between two hundred dollars changes your life. I look at that, unlike you know, Are you solve this problem? Is you don't have a desperate pool for someone a prey upon system, where no one is so desperate that someone would have leverage over them
And think that we're going to solve these problems down river, it's just like it's got to be a part of the strategy. We got a boat. We got to vote for people who want to make that the Plainfield every generation, and people can take action now I mean not everyone. You know my phone is like blowing up. What can I do? What can I do ya can text? The word demands to fifty five thousand one hundred and fifty six, which is for color of change and someone someone black. I promise you will be texting them, what they can do. All the time demands to fifty five thousand one hundred and fifty six regent Ex Floyd, the fifty five thousand one hundred and fifty six and you will get signed up for color change, online racial justice organization. We have five million numbers and we help channel your outright
I join colored Changes board because they are addicted to winning. They don't know what it is tat not when they take on big corporations and bad prosecutors, and they just keep winning and we can do right now to ensure that whose one gender and that they are from the stuff. We don't which is economic security and freedom? There is a whole We have to pay more attention to the votes. The people who represent us are taking. We do have to
parties are really corrupt and I'm not saying that they're not but ass. in the Hall of Power is making a decision that will shape your life and new neighbours, life and so in some control over who that person is where rescript and an eye and those are great suggestions to get involved and them appreciate do you again soon when you're books down. Please come on her son of Love that yeah. We would like that to a person what we will one day we'll go, rogue monitor my Vienna like eyes management but I'll? Do it I'll hug? You? I will
have a million views. So if it gets a million views this week I'll now, who did that? I watch it and I loved it again. I think you're part of the comprehensive look at it that way Ok, first known fact that check. We don't have a fact, checks, so there wasn't time winters holiday, leisure, quickest today are now. Actually we also had a very quick turnaround: fur lined I Gupta for krona virus and
learning about and they're just aren't gonna be facts in this that need checking can publicly. Thank you securing and turning around. Thank you. Yes, very The tsar. Turning you weeks ago, we were having a conversation about race disputes World Adam Grant. This is a couple weeks ago saying I really big to raise in this of course, responded within three seconds gave a huge, lest I ah
the rule of law. There is no option of waiting and we're gonna move quickly, so yeah the tv because I feel like I need. they were last night. There were you know Oh I'm looking at the news, and I dont want the news to be showing all rioters, because that's not the point of all of it in ninety. Nine percent of it is all peaceful protest, but at the same time businesses and I'm not saying that's good at all,
kill Whitey on a wall yeah you boys, the name sunlike that something than their aligning themselves with the protesters goes. All they want is a civil war there just an influx of fear- and oh, my god and other coming to my house and oh there, this in their bad and end, it's scary, there is just more that story then, while like What's this mess, she said, you know because they were right next to her ass, the first night a so she
all the time you know I don't mind this dose of it. So help me understand like what, with the stress of that right is by maybe more important than any of it is not letting the ball drop near armies. Kenneth new cycle, which is twenty four hours a day, and you need shit to feed the fire, and so we blasted them then you people feel like they dont have the bandwidth to care about all the stuff or be involved in all the stuff and Sustained movement right?
can be a fucking kick ass expert. Had this not been going on? Oh one hundred years. Well, Cindy gear, which is a good thing. That's who, literally the point of I think this stuff is to make people aware who are cannot just go and about their life, which is myself for sure slavery to reconstruction, to Jim crowds, mass incarceration and a diamond. They left me ass, being the dot so closely connected in recognising like
Lee immediately to perpetuate the same thing. So that's a great great documentary. If someone wants to get at the store, or what