BONUS EPISODE with Jennifer Eberhardt (social psychologist who is currently a professor in the Department of Psychology at Stanford University) is the first in a monthly series on dissecting the Black experience in America. Jennifer chats with the Armchair Expert about her work in police reform, her personal experiences with racism and the biological impact of cultural biases. Dax asks if there are any model police departments and Jennifer shares a story of when she got arrested. She talks about having “the talk” with her sons and she shares the details of many psychological experiments she did on race and discrimination.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome. Welcome other larger expert on Dan Shepherd I am joined by Monica MILES, but she's just not here in this hotel room with me, where I record this intro on a work trip. An incredible bonus episode today with Jennifer Aber gender Lynn Ebro is a social psychologists who is currently a professor in the Department of Psychology at Stanford University Jennifer received her Phd from harm. University join the faculty at Yale firstly, in the psychology and african american departments and lay join the Stamford Faculty in ninety. Ninety eight her work, I ll the negative impact that racial bias can have on us and provides clear direction and what we can do about it. I made president an inequality and growing polarization around the world. She is enlisting science in the fight for equal justice. Please check out her now, TED Talk, how racial bias works and how to disrupt it. Please enjoy Jennifer either.
He's Jennifer you're busy at Europe, professor and I have to imagine with everything that's going on right now that you're even extra in man that accurate. That's accurate, ok, now, you up in San Francisco, why live near San Francisco? I actually live on. Stanford campus always a dreamy it s. Actually you know it's a lot of space in pretty and accessible, and all that that's good. We move you're about ten years ago I was just don't go, and I got here already in a complete panic about interviewing you, because you have so much interesting work. And generally I have like a page and notes in I have three which is daunting and I'm already panicked about the time we have with you. So what I'm? Always
various about is anyone that fines themselves pursuing a certain line of work I think it's always kind are relevant to find out why they were drawn to that in the first place, you have kind of a very specific childhood experience, which is you grew up and primarily black section of Cleveland, and then moved. I don't know it at what age you moved: Beechwood, yeah, that twelve years old and beech wood is almost all away Philip different experience, what a mom and dad do for a living well My father was what we call a male man's at the time. I guess they call them postal carriers or something now, but in others are male man. He was also an antique dealer. Really had like put in like to really radically different worlds, and my mother was a data input clerk at the federal building downtown, and so we had a sort of working class,
the background, but then my father also dealt in antiques and sell. It exposed him to a different world. So when you move the beech wood you start becoming aware of race? You got become very aware now this may be for the first time yeah I mean you're, always aware of it is even as a black child into black neighbourhood that there is this other world. You know out there, but I didn't if any meaningful relationships with people outside my race me now before I was twelve years old, so that's the big change and and just having friends You know people who were all white basic Beyond was radically different from anything I ever knew before that moment. How was that transition? It was Arthur differently then what I had anticipated so em. I was worried. You knows where there are going to this school, and I was worried about whether I would belong in whether kids will make fun of me
or you can just whether I would fit in basically- and so there s the other students pretty warm and friendly, you know they are showing me around in this kind of telling me about school and they are it's going out of their way to be friends with me, but It was still really really difficult to make friends, and that was because I could not tell their faces apart. As regards a big party or work in. Future yeah. Maybe not. I want to jump to the story of your son, but that's a juicy. I'll get waiting for us. So you think you kind of add a hard time reading, maybe the social cues or the non verbal stuff. So I wasn't guess this social q speck. Basically, I just couldn't distinguish one ace from another, but still might Irene didn't have practised at doing that, and so I didn't know how to tell them apart. Basically
so so that caused the problem, because I really wanted to have the problem? Because I really wanted to have friends, but then it's kind of hard to have friends. When you don't know your friend, is you know that rapid right right, It is so by my brain, sleep did learn awaited distinguish among the faces eventually, and I was able to have friends there, but I was. Airy panic for a good while on like whether I would It would do this and I didn't know what was wrong with me, and I thought like something had happened to me where I couldn't like perform this really basic function, and so it was kind of scary, but you know turns out. You know this is actually an example of this. They call it. The other race effect in the sciences- and so it's just this phenomena, we're here much better at recognising faces of your own waste and bases of other races and alive that has to do with simple. The exposure. Yeah
I think everyone's had the experience or thinking some group is harder to distinguish than other groups, and I think, maybe in general, because we're trapped around perspective. I dont think currently many white people, that Asian B, think all I people like go, live it yeah. It's like the ads goes both directions. It does then you started noticing some more troubling things as well. Right, you started noticing the frequency with which your father got pulled over, say by the police, was different than the frequency of your friends white parents. Right so I have never heard about why family or anybody in the family getting pulled over by the police. But that did happen to us. When we move there and especially early on when the cops didn't know. Who we were or that we lived in the area. We were a sort of the subjects of suspicion, especially my
others him and my father, my sister and I were you know we didn't capture the attention of the police is much there was going to agreement. Question is, if you had siblings and if there is a difference in how you were greeted verses, a brother yeah It was there I mean they would follow my brother. Sometimes they would want to know where they were going where they live. It's a lot of questions still remembered to this day my father so reoccur. From an area Cleveland where you know you didn't: leave the door open and all that. So when we got to this the neighbourhood there? that will go on with the door where you close it and then the wind would blow it open, and so my father, come home and find a door wide open and he would like all ballistic. You was that you now keep telling you guys in their closed the door. You know all of this and fairly like ok, we order teenagers and am I was the youngest of five. So I was twelve, but everybody else was older than me, so they kept happening, and
day. You know I came home and my father was pretty upset and I I was asking them about what happened it turns out. There was a police officer who, saw him going into the house. Do. I know I've been, and all he followed the men there, and I don't know what happened, and he didn't tell me what happened, because I was twelve, but it just really shook me an eye, and I never did that again. I always always made sure that the door was closed and they would check it, and he didn't have to ask me another time what yeah, what a crazy thing to have to be on your mind that you're paying attention to what was the x, nation. Would you ever asked dad like why the fuck did we move? Then. Why are we here because it kind of them? I have made my mom married men and after, like three months at the new house, we like wait white. Why are we here? Would it? But what do we get out of this? I felt better
I did wonder that, but you know especially that Danny you didn't really question your parents that matter we didn't so they this. As you know, we had to follow up where they had lots of relations about it and I think they thought that it would be better for and lots of ways, especially in terms of our education and so forth, because Beechwood had a you know. Mendous, wonderful school system, and so I'm guessing, that is what it but they worked inviting us into the conversation. Where we will go and all that yeah, until she was climbing this economic ladder. My whole childhood and she was great. She started as a janitor on than midnight shifted GM and she worked or web. So we we moved a bunch, but it was very obvious. We were just always trying to get to the next better ACE. You know, and I assume that would be a justifiable explanation for
your father as well, which is like we're climate ladder right, yeah yeah. I think that's too now there is research on that to buy a garage teddy looking at not just how he climbed a ladder, but when you do- and so it turns out that if you don't move by the I'm your child is twelve years old or sell. They don't really get the real benefit out of that education or their better school system and so forth. So I was exactly at that age when we moved and I did benefit and in a big way now did you're older brothers have a harder time with that. Maybe didn't benefit is much, I think so. Yeah yeah! Ok, so you end up going to the University of Cincinnati, and then you have gone down Harvard and getting your masters in your phd in now I am curious about this. How to use distinguish social psychology from sociology. Why out of those things differ? What's this
unit of analysis that differs, but the lot of the topics are similar soul, sociologists and social psychology say are interested in social inequality or ratio and equality in particular. But we go up other than in different ways like sociologists are more likely to look at institutions and systems in focus their attention, their social psychologist, straddle between the two. So we are looking at social institutions Self Worth, but we're looking at how that affects the human mind. So individual yeah yeah. So how does the social world have an impact on the behaviour of of the individual, so you bump into, I guess, Ralph Richard Banks at Harvard or use amount, come into contact with and you had been an elementary go with him yeah item back in that the first childhood home? Yet ok, so you guys, I've been to each other at Harvard, and are you both like look at it?
We're above here, as I mean, was it that means there's some Ghana kinship immense, shared experience of going from a disease. Yeah huge, huge kinship there, because it's like it's gonna call to run into some who knew you when you were a little kid right and sell. It was so funny thou because Erech remember me immediately, and he said I hadn't change very much, I got not. I did not remember his ivory. I remember who he was, but I couldn't recognize them at the time. You know when we were little kids it we, we grew up during the like the Black Power movement and everybody had Afro and I had like an apple path that I would wear to school and the door. He had this big blow out. When I met him again, you know all that here was God itself. That's? Why I couldn't I didn't recognize invited were murdered.
I do know that he's ball because of the story with your son that again forthcoming. But yet so you guys you guys meet there and then do you follow very end up getting married, which I think is very romantic in wonderful, you I mean I got to imagine like you're. Also shot a water and a pretty big way right that experience yet a unique one, eyed imagine and there must have been some comfort in having a similar experience there yet for sure, but sure I mean I felt I may, however, was a great experience in terms of the exposure to all these people went to you know just it was an amazing place, but I often like it wasn't. You know it wasn't a super welcoming you no place for me. It was hard for me to get my pudding there. I always felt like I just didn't, have the same background as other people and didn't always had the same experiences that they had and self or so I was a little bit of a fish out of water to some genre. Did you try the figure to make an appeal
George, you on all those insecurities where you were you able to communicate those yeah I mean I own them and it it kind of set me on a path where I was constantly like looking for a home on campus, and so I would take classes in african american studies and I would take classes in the graduate school of education I was always trying to like figure out where I was going to stand, or you know where I was gonna like like within the discipline and, and so that was that was heart. Was your posts. Doctoral research starts at the University of Massachusetts. Is that accurate accurate, yet you'll find a lot of stuff on the internet is inaccurate and I personally have egg on my face because I'm your oh you're not married doing Olympics. That's that's interesting!
that get in there? But your first bit of research is on the topic of of stereotyping, an intergroup relationship and you specifically, you start exploring this. This term stereotype threat. So at the House tat. I did that what, but that was with the clause. Steel. In that here at Stanford actually or was and he wrote whistling Vivaldi re there at. I know he's a great purse. Do you know he's still in this psychology department here at Stanford, so work? Colleagues, yeah? we want have him onto at some point it, while you d be great your column of given in the room, He has worked. It just took the field in a whole new direction in terms of our own. Standing of what it's like to be a target of bias up until club.
What sort of one of the main ways that people looked at targets of stereotyping was that could come to look at how their damage by those stereotypes, though, is like the looking glass self kind of thing where you feel about yourself. The way society feels about you. So if you're at a group that stigmatized you actually hold The same views of yourself, and so I think Claude was one of the first social. Colleges to think about how people can ten with that threat, and it's not like they just content with it by just buying into it and say: oh yeah, I guess I am what other people think am I am. There stood a negative thing. Instead, he was thinking about like how do people deal with that is still preserved, the cell rape and so one way that they do do that is by this investing rum area as that they are negatively stereotyped in and sell. So that's one strategy and another
but there are other strategies there are other strategies that the whole whistling Vivaldi blood. The title of the book comes from no someone's trying to fend off the stereotypes that people have of whom, as he is a black man walking down the street in. So it's about no sort of trying to sort of figure out how you're not gonna, be a target of suspicion and how you you know how to how to protect yourself, and you can use that too, and you could use your voice basically to protect yourself so Monica just sick, as this is one more They were book suggests you quickly tell everyone what what his strategy was. Yes, so he was a graduate student. I think it in a rusty of Chicago maybe and was walking. Was it Chicago, Ohio State O highest, thank you for your marriage. Olympian right, yeah, then he's walking down the street in college clothes bodies and
regular college closing noticing people are taking a different route or moving across the street to walk and not walk by him purposefully. So then he started whistling Laval, D and people stopped, across streak as they were taking in. Oh, this is somewhat educated. They raise some one who not even educated but like knows cultured culture. What immersed in white you're right, so he's less of a threat. Now I have to Imagine it would be fascinating, free you to be studying this topic and how people internalize stereotypes, then it must cause when you go home at night and lay in bed start doing an inventory of your own expense now, maybe you ve, internalize those stereotypes, someone aided you recognise that be what war the specific things you're like not I've. I've limited myself because I bought into this
I mean this is relevant to the question you just asked about Claude steals work. I mean what why it was so revolutionary is because he was able to show that you can still. Harm by a stereotype, without necessarily buying into a just the fact that your contending with it can actually change your behavior. So he did these studies where he would give people a challenging test, a standardized test and he would preserve that test at diagnostic of intellectual disability, and when he did that you saw a gap between how a black students and white students how they would perform right, so the black students would perform less well, but then he would take that same test with the same problems on it and then present it as a protest that was about a creative problem. Solving gills in that it wasn't diagnostic of intellectual ability at all and in there
he found that they perform its a black students would rise right, and so he was, motor show that people were in the same situation right there are taking the same tests, the same problems but African Americans. Because of that stereotype, that's true lurking out in the world it can, and Well, that's your ability to perform an inadequate Even when you dont completely internalize. What's out, there is just that the stereotype becomes other than that moment in your contending with it and then you're a performance can plummet as a result. We'll. Probably the most well understood in ubiquitous version of this right is the say tee. So if your blood You are probably aware of this gap in the outcome of s a t scores Jude. You give up quicker,
what happens you go like? I can't I shouldn't fight through this, because I already know the outcome: what's the mechanics of rice us so sometimes it means giving up on it and you just decide. You gonna put your energies into other things that are not worth the battle and you don't fight it, but There are times when you actually care about the subject. Would you care about school or whatever? It is you and you're gonna stay and you find did it, but in fighting it it that takes up a lot of Do your distracted, because your kind of using some of her energy to deal with the stereotype that's going on, and so it affects your ability to perform. So you don't the buy into it. You just have to know that. Ok, that stereotype is now relevant to what's happening here and it's almost like
Shokhin effect yeah yeah yeah. It's all it's all mental right, yeah, mental, but situation. All right is the situation that trigger ring, that kind of mental state, and then there's also there's a flip side to the coin right where people can benefit from these stereotyped yet shown to benefit from what was be an example that millennium body him some of her colleagues did this work. It tops university where they were interested in the All that you know different social identities might play and stereotypes threat. So had asian women take a math tests and either they made Elliot their asian identity just before the map test, or they may sailing it there gender identity just before the matter, and they found that you know when they were thinking about themselves as women, the performance dip when they were thinking about themselves, this asian the performance arose in cell, so the same person right, but just
Oh you're, thinking about yourself in matters for, like you know, what's gonna happen and how those stereotypes effect you Ok! Now you end up getting a job at Stanford now Monica and I are what we ve labelled. Uni files were made upward, but were desperate, fortunately impressed with the universities, even though neither of us attended one but of the ones of the elite ones. We find ourselves really liking Stanford the most desirable like it feels like like some mom anarchists kind of creative rhythm to it. In addition, hippy vibe area, where you thrilled to find yourself employed at Stanford. Yes, you know, just as there is by the EAST Coast West Coast colonel thing going on where, when I was at her, I've heard everything was steeped in tradition, that certain things in certain ways, because that's the way we ve always done a kind of thing and at an inn
everything was like steeped in history All that on the West Coast, and especially in Silicon Valley, where Stanford set everything is forward looking. You know it's all about innovation ray it's all about through big, you can dream, sell you, you get a place like this in a dispute Both like liberating its exciting because you can have you- ideas and then find support for those ideas and nobody saying what you can't do that even there is. I got little subtle thing that you might might blow past you as just yeah in school that is revering its history and then as a black student, your recognising, while I'm not a part of that his three at all air. There's one more little subtle thing like I met a place that judges worships this dense history, and we were not represented in that history. So I really celebrate the school in the fashion that may be other people are yet that's right. That's right! Ok, so at Stanford
you become a co founder of spark which is socially psychological. Search to real world questions, and through this you kind, illustrate the consequences of racial associations in criminal justice, education and business and this I imagine is where your launching into what becomes your really profound work and most your big contributions to this field, so implicit I ask this is the area I want to spend a lot of time and because I think the reason it's dicey is that it the risk of sounding like an excuse, but it, but I want to be very clear: it's not excuse, I think, its relevant. Recognize. Biological biases, so that we can control or transcend them. But I think first we have to recognise them. A lot of your work deals with some of the biological components of bias. In that,
We are kind of his species right were engineered to recognise in group we're engineered, also recognise out group in that becomes a fundamental issue we we have so could you tell us about I like how you described as distorting lands made up of biology. Gone societal things they give us these biases, and so you look what you ever Moraine, you showed them pictures of their own race in what happened yet so we had
black and white steady participants in the scanner. We showed them. Images of people who faces basically of people who were black and people who were white and we looked at how their brains responded to those faces and be found for both black and white study participants that there was more activation in this area called the future form face area of the brain. To this is this area that is implicated in no sort of face processing or face identification. Basically, so it was one of the first neural imaging that is to look at how how the brain was responding to faces of the same race or faces of different races. So there's a way in which their biological component to it, but it that does it, you that it's hard wired right, we're kind of getting that response, because of who we are exposed to how the world is structured. This is an example of race as a social construct having a real
effect on our brains are operating because no one's doing any processing there, not thinking through and thing right. There are seen an image in your seen activities, so we know that there is like known steering that it's just it's kind of happening legs, Is there more activity when it matched your race, that's race, for both a black and white yeah. We think a generalised Bobby only looked at black and white participants here and we found outside the scanner. You know that activation in the brain correlated with their ability to remember those faces later. So if you saw like a big difference in the brain, weighing remembering same re spaces and faces of other races. We also found there. Those same participants were less good it at recognising those faces are picking out the faces that they saw an x and the scanner versus those they didn't see. So its related that you know this,
The logical thing can be found in the brain is actually related to a real behaviour outside the scanner and also just want to throw under this scheme precision that one of the very predominant theories on why almost sapiens sapient as a primate became so intelligent is the fact that we live in these. You know multi member groups use. It takes a lot of computing power to recognise this is and to build a memorize everyone's face and whose alpha, whose gamma, all the stuff. We commit a lot of energy and a lot of computing power to that, because they were so social tourism is a lot happening in that in that area, yet allowed happening and care of ASEAN is a big part of it. So you haven't, you need to categorized people in into in groups or out groups in what have you, and so these categories help us to make sense of the world and to try to exert some kind of coherence in control,
Oh you know over the family that we're bombarded with all the time in that's true that just for people, but we have categories for cars. The furniture and just everything right and that's how our brains function is to do this categorization, but that can precision in the bias that that category station seeds else are your brains to make these judgments quickly and accurately and so forth, but doing that by making a split second decisions and by had arising in this way. They extract this heavy toll on us right because now we can't distinguished, that was my issue right when I went to beech wood and I was at the school, I just saw a white faces, one white basin, The white face. Another white face like I just had that broad categories. Yeah wasn't individual. I was in our group as a whole. Every time we looked at an individual yeah, that's right, and it just took me some time to figure out how do how do I see them right
and so I thought any stereotypes that I had about that group that could trigger just from the categorization, so it wasn't until my brain kind of caught up to this experience that I was having, and I was eager to figure out what to do that. I know I can. I can really see them as individuals. Yeah and to make it really really elementary and is pointing out the utility of it, which is, let's say, only met black folks, the first white guy. Me immediately burns your hand with a lighter. You know, odds. Are the next and we see a white guy, you're gonna, be a little hesitant because your want experience with this group now that you ve categorized as one thing yeah you're gonna, have some fear associated with animals that sting or You name it right, that's the function of it yeah! It's you! tell their ok. It was John who burn my hand, was just this guy. You know in this category who did so
frank and take us down roads that are sort of an effective and harmful and sort of had these categories because they help us this. The world, but in a way they're the same things that blind us. You know too that world yeah. Indeed, you have any one in your study. That was you know. Sage, A fur. Had you only lived in Beechwood? Did you have any studies of like a white person that a grown up with primarily black folks or vice versa, and did it change the outcome of that MRI to support the kind of nurture side of it Elizabeth, long time ago. I happen to think back all of that by them I think generally, African Americans are better at Recognizing white faces then white Americans are recognising black faces, and that has to do with the exposure thing and just the fact that
african Americans are a minority. You know in this country. As you know, as I got older, I was out in the world and I had lots of interactions with people outside my own group, and so I I develop in a bill. To do that, but I think for people who were the majority. There is less of maybe lessons I have to do that and also lessons in it because of racial segregation. Like maybe you don't you come in contact with people of other races as much, and so you don't get the practice in and it starts to shape your brain. So if this is really interesting, too, because we're while we're talking about is like how the brain is affected by history. Policy and how we live right I mean we. We live in segregated spaces because of the policies that we're in act it a historically, but those policies actually shape our brains, their shaping. The firing of our neurons, so it's not just that they shape our experience. Those people
these shape, who we are the right right, yeah, the architecture of the brain shifts and there's somebody factors right. So you have the power dynamic. The white group is the hegemonic group in that country, so you're incentivize to understand them right because they have the keys to your opportunity gets right. Then you have the exposure XO on tv. It's all growing up when you grew up and less so when I grew up in less so now, but certainly for dumb lately. Ninety percent of your media is gonna, be all white sea of some again more experience and I think this is where there is a real minefield, because we were just talking and even about this, if you're a white boy in the supper and you have no black friends in your exposure to black oaks are primarily through the sports that you watch, and then maybe the music you listen to and then pornography you're watching at night. This is selected for alike
that may be the least representative group for the group. I think this like underline white male fear of black males. That's in the recipe there is like you're only experience black folks, the best athletes in the world, this kind of hyper masculine. And then hip hop music kind of hyper, Mescal any and then pornography which is selected to be. I promise you on their ends. The news which is Select rightly advocates programme analogy. Yet I am analogy. There's this yet there's this emasculating fear accruing for a white kid with no exposed. Your other than that they so yeah. At any time you know is we're talking. About how stereotyping works is we're talking about how bias works. We have to talk about what is out there that
feeding our minds way. We have to talk about the racial disparities that are out there. We have to talk about fears that you'll develop from those racial disparities. So it's really not just about leg who we are ass human beings, and this is why we, you know, have bias it's the world tat. We live in the input into our brains station. Are you dare we are supported by nobody on this episode? We did not sell any adds, but we thought, oh, what a good opportunity to tell you about a couple different black on businesses that you should check out every lad. Yes, Mcbride sisters, wine collection, Unama. I like in wine due in the morning in the afternoon. I doubt but there's a lot of wine consumed in my house by you and the gale that's correct and I'm looking at their when they get black girl, magic, Riesling David
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and was either black or white and those who were stereo, typically black were sentenced to death. Fifty seven point, five percent of the time compared to twenty four point, four per the time for lighter African Americans are not even white just with in late. I guess that's kind of color ism yeah. You can call it that you so we use the word stereotypically because it encompasses color by also facial features in here, texture and all of that so yeah. It is not just whether your black or white, but it's how black you are the more stereotypically black. You are right. It doubles your chances of receiving a death sentence, that's what we found and then you also that reminds me of another city which is really profound in its white participants, were split into two groups in group one they watch the video clip in which twenty five percent of the images were of black inmates in group to forty five percent of the images or of black inmates
and they were then informed of strict criminal laws. Abiding in the state of California, followed by a petition. To amend the laws and make them less harsh. The group at one, so the one decided only seen twenty five percent they fifty percent of them. Sign? The petition rate is only twenty eight percent of the people in group to signed it and that's not even a huge difference in the images, you show them, I'm late, that's pretty scary that's crazy right yeah, because you might think you know, like often times people believe. Ok, you have these racial disparities in the criminal justice system and the bigger those ray. Disparities are the more concern. People would be that maybe something is wrong with the system what's going on. So this is the logic here and I think, a lot of people who are activists in the criminal justice space. They want to give people this information in this data about what's happening because there
learn by it right there alarmed by the racial disparities and incarceration and so forth, but not Everyone is right, Emmy, sustainable! Take those disparities. Feel, like it just sort of reaffirms this belief or the stereotype, this understanding they had of who black people are you, so therefore they are less likely to sign a petition to make that law less punitive, and so that was the case for three strikes. The three strikes law. We have in California, and then we also did a follow up study on this in New York City, where we were looking at stop question in frisk and was the same kind of effect that the more extreme the racial does authorities were the more punitive people were that the more it was that they wanted to see more aggressive policing enforcement strategies and so forth, That was a surprise someone's at home going Warhol down now, although black folks are committee more crimes, so this is, urging the incarceration rate is
splain in their minds by the rate of crime being committed. Flash weaken break that apart individually, but before we even do that this is so in all things are equal when a black suspect gets to court. They're gonna be victims at a much higher rate with equal evidence. Right a lot of data that they're gonna get convicted easier than a white person. They're gonna get a worse sentence than a wise person statistically, and the children you did working with the juvenile ports and studied how quickly white jurors are to see juvenile black, defend it. As an adult, whereas is they'll dismiss juvenile white defendant is, like you know, youthful mischievous mischievousness. So there's this this propensity for white folks to make black children older than they are right or more. Actual and then so you have these results that are
they're pretty undeniable right, statistically it's pretty black and white that it's not fair. Once you entered the system just passing out the crime rate aspect for a second, it's it's much different right back to that that Tsalagi know that there is a disparity. You know in the crime rate shouldn't make you less concerned about bias. Writer should make you more concerned about bias, because disparities are going to strengthen the association. You know that people have between race and crime, and, and so that can due to make decisions right that rely on that association rather than the individual suspects behaviors, and it could also lead you to be less sympathetic right to people who simply look like the minority of people who are committing crime, and so I get that question a lot, especially in policing spaces right answer. I always tell them like If there are prime disparities in your city that doesn't give you a pass on bias. Instead, it makes you all
all the more vulnerable Tobias right. Yes, yes, you have to police, yourselves, even more, knowing that it in they it just. I want to defend a couple things which one is. What is crime, what our we defining crime- and we know that the powdered variety of cocaine that white people were predominantly using had a much different penalty. Bang crack cocaine, which was inextricably linked to the black community cell tat, we're defining crime currently, but I do know dad what way, how closely linked as it socio economically. So, if you look at white communities that have a similar household income. I have to imagine those communities are committing more crime as just desperation Lee
the crime in general lack of opportunity leads to crimes. Are they comparable those numbers they are not comparable, partly because they don't live in concentrated poverty, and so even in a white fish? those who are poor, they tend not to live in areas were all their neighbours are poorer too, and so but african Mary. These are more likely to live in those situations. Youse, poor white, we're we're gonna, spread out alone yeah my down, so I want to get into story of your son cause. It's so profound, I think, Has to be very informative and the work you have done because you let a lot of implicit bias or unconscious bias workshops for police departments- and I think this experience with your son- is just very profound. So
Will you tell us about that? Okay, so we're on an airplane and he's five and my son he's is so excited right about being on this airplane with mommy and he is looking all around and he is checking everybody out and he's checking everything out and then he knows he's this man and he points at him and he says: hey that guy looks like daddy. And so I look at the guy and he doesn't look anything like my husband, like nothing at all right, so good I start looking around the play and I notice that this guy was the only black man on the plane, and I thought all right. I'm gonna have to have a little talk with my son about how not all people look alike. There's a couple hilarious points in that which is your your husband, his bald
in this guy had a really long dread locks right at my way, back much different high every day, yet Erin a good. So I decided I was gonna, give it a shot. Does you know, kids to see the world in a different way from adults, and so I thought maybe he's seen something right resemblance there that I can't get, and so I looked at its height and his. Adrian his skin color and his facial features, and I tat his hair and you know he did. He had long dread, let's lower down his back in my husband shakes his head Am I right? I turned to my side and I'm like ok, you're gonna, get that it's I'm already, given the talk about how that all black people look alike right and so before I could say anything. My son, he looked up at me says, I hope he doesn't rob the plane What? What did you say? This is what I hope man doesn't lab plain
Why would you say that you know daddy, wouldn't rob a plane and uses yeah yeah? I know in a simple: why would you say there and he's got me with this really sad face, and he said I don't know why. I said I don't know why I was thinking. Maybe this is this such severe racial stratification? There even a five year old can tell us what supposed to happen next and that's I mean what would you say, your leading causality for that for those television? people always point to television right away? it allows the media exposure and are there, but I know he's five. You actually wasn't looking at that much tv frankly and, of course, media. That plays a role here, but I think that, worse so quick to point to them. Here, because we don't want to look at ourselves jar and that
are they bothers me because they are not just picking up things from television. They are picking all this from the signals we we deliver to them even though we don't intend to- or even when we don't intend to I have another son when he was in the first grade. He came to me and he said to me. It is a mermaid idea. They people gotta, have a different feeling about people than they do other people and as a war, we know what do you mean? He says I don't know. I just feel that there's a something different there and in how people look at black people to estimate, me an example. He thought about it and he said well, women We were in the grocery store the other day and there was a black man who came, and so this is a grocery store and mostly white neighbourhood. There's a black man came in. He says I noticed that people kindness stayed away from here, a little bit, and he was it really in the star wars. Then he would say it was that he had a giant for
field around him, and so people were like staying away and then he said when this man got into the line. He said his was the shortest lie, because people were getting lie behind him, and so he had picked all of this up. You know just shopping and, and I did notice the man coming to store, but I didn't I didn't pick any of that right here in a part of it is just I'm: u still You know I do. The white noise now right is, is it's all in the background as it is and so and then I asked him, what do you think it means? What why why do you think do that he thought about it, I don't know he says I think it's fear and I thought wow you're a first rate can get to that, not by watching tv, but just by watching We move through the world and how people be apt to us as we do here. Such a humongous motivator for people fear right. I mean it's gotta, be the strongest yeah. Ok, so this
sorry about your son brings up a quest I've been wanting, there's someone who actually knows this topic and not just my arm, chair expert theories on stuff, I think a lot of people would imagine that if a police force was made up entirely of black officers, that that would ensure that would be no more racism, but I I imagine that's true right because of so many factors a what you just said, which, your internalizing that, even if Europe and then. Secondly, I think the in group out Rube, dynamic of joining the police and then that being your ultimate in group, I feel like that can supersede your other group identity perhaps way. So what would a cure everything they have all black officers or when we have a slightly less issues, or would it be dramatically differently
You think that's hard to answer, because there has been a whole lot of research on people often will say you know when there are problems when there's a lot of conflict between community members of color and the police that you need to hire more black officers, but there's not a lot of data on it. It's actually track it to see if that's effective, to see. If that is possibly you know related to, you were officer involved, shootings and fewer stops and fewer. You know all of this fear racial disparities and so We don't really know the other thing about. That is there is a way in which the police department, have the wrong culture, they had their own policies and practices and so forth, and so I think you have to get at the root of that. Not just the sort of changing who the people are because people can come in to the police,
Department not really even have a lot of biased and but then they develop that by us from the work that they do and the kinds of interactions they have, so for I've, never forget. I met a man wants who was from Germany and he came the. U S and just got a job at a police department. He where his hands were unease looking around and make sure he did have a gun and all of that in and he said he developed, it was almost became like an automatic, assorted, triggering kind of thing because of the work that he was doing. So I think this area dream of changing the people, but not feel fear when deal. There was a black man and he could see that man's hands and he wanted to know your, whereas and were ladys looking around and make sure he did have a gun and in all of that in, and he said he developed,
it was almost became like an automatic assert, its triggering kind of thing because of the work that he was doing. So I think this area dream of changing the people, but not changing the institution and then also not addressing the racial disparities. I think you'll start to have some of the the same kinds of problems that we have now, frankly wall and we already touched and a little bit, but were such social animals that we do adopt whatever culture we find ourselves in even for a kind of aware of it right. The power of of the group and again Oliver hard Wiring, makes us want to stay in line with that Group and so yeah the culture had override the individual pretty quickly. I would imagine right there the social norms of that culture right if you're in a world where you know
have strong. He galloped areas, values. Even if you hold those values yourself is an individual. You start to shift. You set a move in line with. What's going on around you, we're social beings, so situational conditions can either trigger biased or or can buffle it, and when you'd teach these pious workshops with the police. What are you telling them to do, because I think it would probably be useful for all of us to have some checksum bail since, in our had thing all of his could use some tools and making sure We are fighting back against that employed by a soap. What are some of the tipps? You give police that we could all benefit from yeah I mean so we know as social psychologists.
About the this situation on triggers of by us. So we know when you're forced to make split second decision, so you have to respond quickly that DR elevates the possibility that you're gonna respond with bias. We know that when you have subjective standards that you're using to evaluate other people that that's more likely to lead to biased decision making, then if you're evaluating others with more objective standards. Can you give us a concrete example of that? Let me give you let me stepped back and just give you an example to I and a number of my colleagues at Stanford. We started working with the police department and here in Oakland, caliphs we were working with them on various reform efforts and that the task at hand was to help them to make fewer stops people who were not committing any serious crimes. This was an issue where you get pulled over huge racial disparities and who gets pulled over, but there
you there is no like real safety violation, really would be more you get pulled over because of y'all. You had a license plate. Lay that was out in that kind of thing, and sometimes those kinds of stops they call them. Protection will start or equipment, stops those kinds of stops huge racial disparities there and who was getting pulled over because they were pulling people over to kind of check him out to see what they were up to. So there was a suspicion there right that you don't have as much with white drivers, so what we did was to it also to introduce a question on the form that officers complete when they're making these kinds of stops and
That question was: is this stop intelligence led, yes or no? In other words, did I have prior information prior intelligence to tie that particular person to a specific crying over, so they now have to ask themselves this question, and you know scurvy mandatory question right. So what happens when they ask them? question is first you slow down a right, you're thinking. Why am I a considering pulling this person over right? So it causes you too much. Your mindset that only do you slow down, but you are now forced to use. Evidence of wrong doing that still more objective standards you evaluating people by rather than your intuition about rise up to no good right, yeah zero. You always year, like cop, seem like they gotta trust their instincts and listen to their intuition. I'm not a cop! I'm very! sympathetic to what a gnarly job. That is why I have two imagines there right. I don't know what the percentages but certainly,
probably right. There intuitions probably saved them at some point yet so opt in its not escape as we are doing to navigate eleven dear spidey senses and when to recognise its just this bias right. So what we did is this: the help them to slow down into a sort of use, no, these objective standards and develop the metric. In order to do that, and we found that twenty seventeen before we added that question to the forum officers made about thirty. Two thousand stops the around the city, but with the addition of that question that next year that dropped to night, thousand stops and we did our primary go up now. It didn't guy, don't go anywhere near that part yet so to african American stops along fell by over forty three percent and the crime rate did not go up and in fact the city became more safe for everyone.
So, and that was a big thing. They thought the crime rate would go up if they stop fewer people, but it turned out it did it. Oh wow. Ok, that's really important data have out there. From parts of your brain do different thinking right so the slicing panicked in the moment, that's kind of mid brain reptilian, right heart rate up that's night, where you do your best, Indeed, your van loves, where you do all your best thinking right, you're kind of you ve, given them a trick to two almost force their thinking into that frontal lobe of it is that kind of the mechanics of what's happening yet, yet that's that's right that the slowing down does that sort of adding that occur. Ability to be at the other thing is that the police department incentivised these kind of stops. These intelligence led stops, and so those were the stops that you want. More of so that shifted the norm. You know in the space where
hey. This is what I'm going for you like a quality approach, not a quantity approach, exactly exactly so. That's what have they also solving anymore crime by fitted bullied all these people, so that's what they realized this intuition, but but it wasn't leading to anything it was that bearing fruit for them who's gonna ask if you found that these biased training sessions are effective and it sounds like at least with the Oakland police. It was, it was usually fact of it. That's a radical change in the number of people, their interacting with different understanding. What said wakens produced by us in what situations contempt it down versus just informing people of that? So I would just go in and let them know about bias. I dont think that that's enough you actually have to change the conditions under which bias is most likely that so that's what we are trying to do here in Europe to give someone
a tool, kit right and action to take, because you can't just think your way into thinking differently. It does actually work that right, exactly something practical that you can do to help. Yet you have the sure thing they did. This was what, before our research team got there, but they change their foot. Pursuit policy in a man that would decrease biases wealth, so they used to have a full pursuit policy where they could just your chase, the suspect anywhere that suspect went. So if this aspect went into dark alley, Jason there. If you lost sight of a key chasing if they went into a dark, you know sort of enclosed. It's like a back yard or something you just chased them right in there, so they changed the foot pursue policy so that, if you lost sight of a suspect you had to step back, you couldn't go in and continue that you a step back and set up a perimeter, and then that would give you time to think about what you're doing it will give you time to think about what resources you had to address the problem,
by reducing adrenalin court. As on all these things, yeah exactly felt they found that before they change their footprints. Policy I think they had eight or nine officer involve shootings a year, but with a change in power Do they had fewer than that in over five years, so it's huge huge difference and and and not just a difference for the community member safety, but even the officer safety, so officers, injuries went down by over seventy five percent. By that simple change in policy, wow you're. We saw them do that and there lay with the police pursuits. They rightly recognised like turn endangering so many people. Let him go to wherever there going you gotta helicopter yeah disengage from the re run. The lehne spiked version of the interaction
and when you do that, you're less likely to act unbiased right, cause, we're not fearful you're, not threaten you're, not where you have to make the split. Second, this although there are removed and sell your less likely to act on bias, I think one of the things this topic suffers from as the crime rate has dropped, righted ladder up drop for thirty years precipitously and there's a lot of different people trying to explain why that's happened. There is probably no true consensus, and this is probably a mall, due to factors. Are you even yet the freak anaemic skies attributing it RO we wade right. You have all these different explanations for it, but one thing I am sympathetic to as so often, they know that I don't know, what's arbitrarily fifty percent of the crime and be given. Cities happening on these five blocks now, like we'll, have the crime, as is happening in these five block, so we should police these five blocks.
And the conventional wisdom is so the more often you stop people. More. You can interact the more you might find a gun. You can take that off the street. There's a little chicken in the egg thing going on and I dont know who goes first and I don't know- maybe we can do them all simultaneously, but clearly we know the cause of crime or one of the big contributing factors right as this loss of opportunity. The education level, the health re. All these things are contributing factors and we most certainly have to be. Addressing those, including those up, but I I can see where those areas with high crime have to be policed. Well that are not committing crimes- must be protected all these things, so what your thoughts on that kind of pickle yeah. That's that's a great question and I think one of the reasons that entails at intervention. If you will work just because they actually, you know ahead other, better crime, fighting tools to work with, and it wasn't simply
you seen by area because there has it problems right, even in height an area, as you know, the majority people are not fair committing crime, and so the above ninety percent or night remaining grown yeah. The vast majority and sold in the. Why would you you haven't- be space base, because then your harming all of these other people who just happen to live in that space, and so what do you want to do is like focus on people who are actively engaged, violent crime, and so that's worth open has done through their ceasefire programme is so they focus on people who are actively engaged in crime, but they do it in a way where you're, not simply removing and arresting them, but you actually trying to work with them. You're trying to reach out to them is to take them away from that and activity is normally was brighter and handcuffs yeah, so you give and out in them.
You do that other people in that gang and old people around them. No, there the subject to focus right by the police, and so they let that person go in a way, and so then it feeds them up, have the opportunity to make other decisions, and so they bring people who can help with various deeds that the person Why have we or maybe it's an issue of not feeling their able to find employee men, especially when they unemployment rate, was pretty high, insulted, doggerel, double for blocked young males, as it is for why my right there right soulful, then they would help them with that or they without you're. So they will give them the support that they need it to actually get out of that whole the cycles? I violent yeah yeah yeah and I guess it's a hard thing in general, in our country we have a hard time adopting prevention policies, Riah because they're kind of fear ready, although not proven yet and you're asking people to make kind of a leap of faith, and so many of our problems, race, beam?
among many that we tend not to put any resources into prevention, but law enforcement. Very costly. I think in allay. I think we read it. Is it six billion dollars the budget may be for LAPD. We know that the reaction Side of the equation is quite causally late and we D seem to have a huge appetite to experiment and try some preventative measures, but I have to assume like most preventative measures their way cheaper at the Adriatic. I agree is a department that is a model department that people should be kind of stealing their playbook is Oakland a model department now or are there any model departments is highly sake, is energy data is a model department. Something happened there, not so virtually war, but I mean, but their land parliament's out there they're doing good things and you know they have all kinds of reforms.
But they're trying and one other departments that people point to allow, especially recently, is Camden New Jersey, so they basically I just fired everybody and started over from the ground up and they you'll developed a whole sense of what they should be doing and what policing was about that was different from know what they were doing before so less sell this or a warrior mentality morsel. You know that Europe a servant of the people, and so it's a lot more community oriented and so forth, and so there are strategies that well there's that there's a lot of work on procedural justice right now. Lotta departments have those kinds of trainees whether it is the same idea. What you're trying to shift your focus on not just fighting crime but
also developing a real relationship with the public with the community that you serve, and you can do that at the level of the interaction you know right. You can do that when you stop someone, you know you, you can listen to their voice. Make sure give them time to surrender to tell their story you can feel treat them with respect social they're. All these kind of rules of thumb that officers in police departments across the country learning about how you build trust with the public rather than a road that trust, because you interfaced so much with police departments in your work I have to imagine you have a sense of that culture more than the rest of us and being black. I have to imagine this. This movement is very important to you then. Yet I bet you ve had access in Paris, no experiences that our unique on the police side. So what can you tell us about? Having witnessed both
spectres. I would imagine both sides of equation could use some help. Yes, we're sure there are not enough reforms that involve bringing Lena police and community together oftentimes, even that, like the trainees that I mentioned, that the procedural justice training, there's implicit buyers, training there they're all kinds of training senior out there, that police departments are trying and in an effort to reform, but more often than not their their training police there not actually involving the community directly in those exercises- and I feel like that's important- it's important for community members even know that those training are happening.
Also important for them to bring the community members like into the this is the space you know. Maybe they have ideas about, know what they should be doing. Maybe they have ideas about what kind of policing actually no feels just to us and so forth. So as police departments are creating in your practices and policies and so forth to actually know what that feels like to be the target of that that practice or that policy is important, information that have and police departments don't always have it because there's no, the mechanisms for that. So yeah. I think that's it that's an issue for sure, and I think when you don't know how will police departments work from me in died, and you don't know what reforms are working Femmina then all you see is so do officer involves shooting through these things that the world season
The old like what we want to do is to take actions that are evidence based and to embrace strategies that we know will work in your sometimes what you think is gonna work is always the thing that really works. I give you an example of that with the implicit, biased, trainings so allow people call for those training needs to happen is important, and so the police department want to show that they are responsive to community members, and then they also want to be able to check that boxes. You ve done that thing. If you just offer the training, that's easy, but if you have to admit We await the training, that's different because you don't. Whether that training is actually gonna, move the needle in a way that you want or not, and you only get credit for it. You know if its effective and so these training had been going on for years now and rarely are they evaluated yeah yeah? and again this is gonna, be dangerous to bring up, because I dont want to sound
I can all lives matter thing, but I do see parallels so we're recognising. We have these bias We recognise we're not treating black folks as individuals and that were treating them. As this group stereotype, right and I just am now fearful that the response to it is to basically apply that same lens to police. That police are a thing, the individual, sharing the group yeah. That makes a lot of sense and approaches, the time to feel bad for cops, but I'm just I get nervous of just the kind of fruitless endeavour of saying all these people are this way and Bob LAW just to add in are not, for people are saying all these cops individually are bad, but I this system is bad, there's please, unions and all of these issues that cause the system to be corrupt and that's what needs addressing? Not the key Let me you can try to address the people specifically, but that's not really that issue
yet systems? While I get here ass, a great the sanction in it, it is a great distinction and I think that's what people are calling for, and I think people should call for change in that way yeah. But I would like that approach to be evidence based guess, good, that's. My main point is that you can call for change, but you can't just assume that a particular change is going to work because its intuitive you, you need to actually as you are that you know, you need to actually no sort of figure out ways to really understand. What's gonna move the needle and that's not happening enough. Ok, last thing. I want to ask you. First of all, I love you. I am so grateful for your time. Talking to you, we here sometimes about this- and I think it's it's really profound when you can hear some- and whose personally done it, but so you you mention five year old son as ever it is that is you ve certainly had to give him the speech
right as apparent of a young black mail. You must have given them the speed. A hot. What is this speech? How does it go and You know just imagine that you'd have to give your child this speech. It is interesting because was interviewing him form we, my book as I was writing a book and just talking to him about his experience and so forth, and he started to tell me about. He had gone to this outdoor concert. You know at one point with a friend of his who was south asian and I think that France, Cousin- and so you know I was kind of close to home on thirty May,
play, minutes away- something like that, and so they decided after the concert they were going to get an uber back, so they got in the uber, and my son Noah was sitting in the front seat with this uber driver who was driving recklessly like so he was driving really fast, and my son said it was just It was like really scary, like he wasn't of observing here, any role that the road rate- and he was
the highway was just like speeding and then my son was saying he was really worried, but he wasn't worried as much about the speed as he was about what would happen if a police officer stopped them, and I thought wow that you said you felt more safe going at that speed. Then you would you know, and he said yes, so that's when we had a talk, and I said what what what do you think would have happened. He kept saying, but I didn't want to get detained, and I said what it. What does that mean? He said? Well, he didn't want to and up in handcuffs, and so he just thought like the whole thing could have, like that matter, hand and then also he's the only black guy in a car. So he was just had this whole
whole thing running in his mind about what am I going to do? What am I going to do? He wanted the guy to slow down, so he did not have to confront that police officer be exposed to anything that that officer you know had to give. So that's the point we had to talk. If I were the parent of a young black male, I would feel so. Selected cause. Pardon me, that's fearful for their safety would be telling them now and that cop comes you put your hands on the wheel like I'd, be weighing them through the play book. They are basically how to surrender and at the same time going will this isn't fair at all? I can play I have to pass design on. Yet I am fearful and it just must be very complicated, because I guess what have daughters, so I think a lot about female mail. Rolls, and I am a conflicted with this- be aware, be safe. Also, it's not your job to worry about,
if your dress that you're inviting rape, so it's very complex and I dont want to instil a sense of victim. Where I want instil a sense of awareness in safety, so I have to imagine it's just compounded that many times over, for you in the things, you must wrestle with what advice to give yeah you're right. It's hot Damn it has a black mother. It's really hard to say that your sixteen year old mean this is your child, that these are the things you have to do to say safe in its because year, African American, when it is not just a general rules that everybody follows and everybody's treated the same way, and you do for you, conflicted in the sense that in having a top your adding to the injury in some way like right now, but at the same time
My child live. I want him to come home, safe and so so black women across the country. You have that talk because of that that takes precedence one of those things that you can avoid, especially for me now. I know that I know the work that I do in so far as I know that you cops are looking at your hands and if they can't see your hands, they give really nervous ray? I they want to see your hands, and I know that they get nervous when you start moving. I guess a component of your parenting would have to be letting him know when it's time to stand up and fight. Art, is you can and then what city ways in IE. You don't have that luxury. You don't have now privilege, so there's gonna be times. I want? You engaged in a fight it and then there's I want you to act. We asked, which is a hard thing I have to tell you you're son, I'm sure yeah yeah
The day before I graduated from Harvard I got arrested, real and yeah great. They have daughter. You darling. I did my expired registration. It was expired like six weeks overdue, and I didn't have to stick around they're saying oh good, I'm glad they got you off the streets. I can't imagine if I had to drive next to an unregistered motorist. I would about that. But it was that situation where I felt like I didn't want it to happen. Es every detail the way he spoke to us every It was so so disrespectful. I've never been disrespect like that before in my life- and I like you, know why I was really tired- my friend and I were driving together and if we were both tire we ve been like up all night. We had a little catering business going on
we're in graduate school as though we were like up beg making food and all this in the next day we had to go and serve itself. We were coming back. This is the afternoon from this cut catering gig and we have been up. The whole night in this guy comes in here, like your hassling ass and talking to us like we were- Nothing. Will you get the double whammy you get the black and the females over the massage any two's it Brian. This do so. There is that blood. I thought my gender was gonna, protect me because you weren't threatening yeah, that you can see me here, but I'm fine- We then I wait two hundred and five pounds I didn't see him self as a threat- and I guess it didn't occur to me- then they would see me as a threat, and I thought I could sit there and you know protest jars and that's it. I did well. You know I hear the audio, I'm embarrassed. I've forgotten her name, but his is a chapter of the Malcolm Gladwell. Black Brown Sandra Land yeah
into that audio and I'm like this is heartbreaking This is what I'd want my daughter to say to that officer: yeah but you do not have the right to do this. You are completely out of line. I don't accept this in so that's. What I think would be so heartbreaking is, is they have to teach my kid just take it on the chin, yeah and pick another data battle yet and I guess what they haven't it that day, I'm like No, I said I'm not getting the car I'm sitting right here is so he called her back. And I'm telling you another cruiser and then another, why then another one than another will be worth around eight, my friend and I buy five cruisers for a registration yeah we'll Monica. What, if I mean just imagine how dangerous she is registration yeah, but
I was a thing about. It is that I decided I was gonna protest, but then the consequence of that was being surrounded by These cruisers and I didn't know what was going to happen. I was afraid at that point it first I was just like you know. I don't let them take this and there were change the beer. You know when the world I am that that's where identity so interesting and Turkey is like. I have to imagine party here internal monologues, like I got a Harvard mother fucker. You cannot treat you know like we see this idea that you could transcend this sentence by She even some thing, but you can on the side of the road it doesn't that doesn't matter now. I did manner. Did model and we were in a neighborhood that was predominantly blacks. I think that was part of it. Was that you know the lot to it that they are surrounded as an end. We
get out of the car, and so you know one of the officers said we'll just pull them out of there right. So they pulled me out first and this guy. He picks me up and he body slams me on the roof of the car that the hood but the roof I mean he picked me up and and I You know, I just lost my breath. I was gasping for air and sliding down the larger like start recalculating. What the options are, because I gotta say I've been in situations arouse actually antagonistic because the guide didn't radar, the right person right Simon Day, and I am working with this framework of what's possible right. Well, you can't do this and I am allowed to say this and I have to imagine when get shattered of like? Oh? No, this thing's gone in a direction that who knows where it ends. Yeah, that's what I was a fake so have I a car that leg ok, this cannot in well our
ray to get out, because I know what was going to happen to me. So it was. It was very frightening and that's a nearer view shifting right. So it's like you accepted how things work for the longest part of the trauma of being molested is like you took for granted adults urban, violent and kind and helpful, and then you go all thought now. I live in a world where people prey on people that the currently alters everything going forward and I have to admit agent once you realize I, oh now those rules, In reply to me any point, I could get severely taken advantage of or mistreated, and I I have, now proceed through life. Knowing that that's an option for me, it was exactly like that, while here everything changed that day, people were out there on the spot, It witnessing this right after awhile likely a crowd gathered. It was like a big spectacle and they did this in front of all those. People I mean all of them were african Americans. I just did they did it as though there were
nobody there watching them yeah, as somebody even called out, As you know, I was called out to me when I was on the roof, and I was I was sliding down a car and they called out you know. Are you? Ok? Are you? Ok? I couldn't even answer so I fun we argued along this road. We have you ever felt and then I tried to you as I have the handcuffs go on and on Never. My friend was telling me don't resist, and I'm like I wasn't resisting at all like I was just like my body was like a limp. Basically, the supervisor showed up on the scene, and I asked him if he saw that if he saw this guy body slamming on the car- and he looked at me- and he said I didn't see a thing: yeah and I thought wow That's our treatin acute five or one hundred ten pounds A bad man
we can only imagine you add in all the other highest levels, yeah what Jennifer, what a pleasure do you have when we finally become students at Stanford? Maybe we'll figure well Jennifer. Thank you so much Time in your perspective, in your work, is so great to have that data bring into the argument, is essential. So First, spending your life studying this. Thank you, and this is thanks for having me it's been applied tell Rick, I say, hi again feature
Transcript generated on 2020-07-22.