Dr. Laurie Santos is a cognitive scientist and Professor of Psychology at Yale University and host of The Happiness Lab podcast. Laurie chats with the armchair expert to discuss 5 ways to increase happiness during quarantine, the neuroscience behind deep breaths and why studying animals is better than studying humans. Dax connects Laurie's principals to the principals of AA and Laurie talks about the negative impact of academic grades. The two discuss the scientific effects of giving and the connection between anthropology and psychology.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome welcome welcomed arm chair expert experts on expert I'm dyin Shepherd joined my modest amount man Are you know it's the sunny? I am a fabulous phidias. We allow rain yesterday, another sons bag. Today we have a lorry Santos, who is a cognitive scientist, am professor of psychology at Yale University. You know she is the most popular class in yells history. On happiness and she is also the host of the pod cast the happiness lab. So everyone should listen to that she's very fascinating and has such good tips for wellness for feeling happy a faster. I now as readily right. so please enjoy lorry Santos. We are supported by shady raise Monica shady raise, makes the handsome is son, last now, I have a few pair there very high
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but she was doing something that I think we're getting close to one, and she said anything for minutes are under is fine with which your stance on that day, I think, format surrender. economics. We always of his window for class is usually like mistakes minute window array. Ah kinda students leave at my school students could like leave after ten minutes. If the professor didn't show up what so mixed up is so my underground institution had it that you could leave early like that was like you left before then, but then the Yale institution like it was switched, and so it was like this weird to shock of, like some people showing up early and some people leaving early and animal lorry. We're so excited to talk to you,
and you came to us by way of what I think is a God living among us, which is Malcolm Gladwell. He emailed me and said you really need to get hip to lorry, and let us take one second to talk about how much we love Malcolm known outcomes, fantastic. I think I met now come for the first time I was like a new assistant professor. I just started up a yell and he was doing this dinner party with one of my colleagues, and the whole time I was just like issues. This was like right when I think the tipping point had just come out and I got him a man. You know APEX Gladwell, as I was learning about you today, Laurie. I really excited because you don't turn a primate work yeah, I did say Ology Nigh Anthropology, but less like anthropology side, major artificially yoga Ba in both biology
I call D out from Harvard yeah, although it was kind of a little bit of her like a trick that, because they just they just started this new joint major, and so they hadn't really worked out like which classes you needed to take yet, and so I managed to get a biology degree from Harvard by taking. minimum possible amount of biology. Hats is embarrassing. Now how to teach things like genetics cause I'm like did you know that stuff Lazy gc would ever just keep a ghastly? Exactly did you have lab, is part of that they did some lab staff, but not that I remember super while most waited animal behavior stuff. That was like my main thrust in biology would hence the monkey work. What was the genesis of you're working with animals or or studying animals in relation to human psychology? What actually came out of a hatred of running human experiments? I started doing work when I was like a freshman working in a lab that studied human. and we were studying this thing called implicit memory, which is just this phenomena that
the stimuli that are in your world are kind of affecting you without realizing it. You know. So if I give you a list of words that are all related to elderly people, he kind of prime that without you realizing it right with the whole point of this effect is like you're supposed to know. What's happening, but it I'm gonna teach we teach like an interest, I class. So I know a freshman worry go in to try to test implicit memory in these freshmen who are taken class about implicit memory, and at the end of every study. Unlike did you have any ideas about what the study was about and ever more like? Was it in an implicit memory study yes and then we'd have to throughout their data and so far to go to animals like animals. Don't have hypotheses about what the study is about their hotly messing up my data with their big, conscious thinking, brain, and so that was part one
He has a less digress for a second. This is one of the most fascinating aspects of answer which is like their studying humans for a hundred years, and the aegis almost can't study human we're trying to figure out that the study you are part of a new and you're, almost probably trying to be a great subject and help the professor or a person doing a steady, get the results they want like it's all. We're too conscious of all things right, yeah in its super, any that in its like super hard to get at what humans are really like, cause of all these cultural influences rattling. If I want to study the human is hard to not be studying the American you man or the Zimbabwe and Humane or, like you know, your culture prevents me from knowing what's really built in to being a human and so so monkeys book, for both of these reasons were a breath of fresh air like they don't have all these cultural influences messing with them and they do
Finally, don't know that therein your study, they don't want to do a good job and I think they might actively not want to do the job and you studied very sure. I was in your progress and there's a couple different areas, and I really want to explore in I'm kind of obsessed with status, so many primates are very high. Social animals were the apex of so, the animal right, and so we have so much hard wiring, an evolution to make us cohesive in a group and I think, we're largely unaware that right. So I do wonder, even in your your primates studies, like your Capone's right there, there very smart did they ever interpret your status as being like alpha. Do any of the people conducting the experiment become the alpha, yet not so much with my guys. We because status wasn't that much of a thing like they had their one hour.
Down, but researchers in chimpanzee labs report. This all the time, in fact with super interesting as you get cultural differences in these different primate lab, so the chimpanzee labs and say Japan, the chimps are really Klute into Hugh, who is the high status researcher? So if you a man in your like Joe Freshmen, like I was in that experiment. The James will just like dominate you and you can get them to do anything whatever, but then the pie, the principal investigator big, had honcho comes in and all of a sudden, garlic, oh gosh, I'll, do anything you want. It's like the chimps are somehow of just such a question. Their somehow implicitly, picking up on the human status is not just like All higher status is like, while some of the humans might be higher status but like some of them are completely well ranking, and I should just abused
in conclusion would have to be that we're sharing so much non verbal communication that they are able to witness how we look the length of time who has the floor the longest who they're probably just aware of it subconsciously. As we are aware of it, yeah they're not looking at people's academic data or like somehow, where giving off these queues at, we don't even realize which itself ass saying it is. It is idle love it ok to list with Eu History a little bit, because I always like knowing why people gravitated towards the thing they did so you're from Massachusetts and pricing that wrong? I have a hard time with that word. and your dad is from a chain islands that I would have only known, because the canary islands are close. He asked my dad side of the family as from Cape Verde, which is a set of islands off the coast of Africa. Very few people in the US from keyboard, but they tender like cluster and cities that were big like sea ports or will
imports in particular, so I got the wailing ships what kind of go around Africa they would serve. Stop in fuel up in these tiny islands off the western coast of Africa called Cavern and it gave radiance were like I wanna get involved in those two seems like a greatly grid of enterprise, and so they wound up kind. In Massachusetts, like my hometown, New Bedford, is the town of Moby Dick Great, so it's like all wailing town you know, a day, and so so you get these kind of tiny clusters in seaports, but this sort of an african portuguese mix, I'm like, but by racial by nature, but even more by racial cost. Enough. One of one of my sides is already by racial by nature of the way those islands work. Mom was guidance counselor in school. You actually attended in Massachusetts. He added so she she always really loved education and kind of wanted me in my my brother. Do I go often you'll get the best education. We could she gonna, instilled in us from a really early age? Will you deliver
Nigeria check. You know that was always a passion of hers, but it wasn't necessarily something everybody in my town did like. I don't know anybody else for might who like went to Harvard like, went Ivy League schools and things. Those kind of it was kind of a strange thing to do to gonna double down Working class town. I assume yeah I mean it was when it back in the Moby Dick days it was the richest town in in the U S, but your wailings not like a super. Huge industry anywhere, there wasn't new industry that kind of came in at the. I never see the whalers on the Forbes one hundred. They don't like that, Start delay regularly went out because it s so. Yes, I wasn't in the town where a lot of people went off to the squaws by, but it was also many. We completely changed my life, it it's now it is when I advise high school students. You I'm like education is the way to completely transform what your opportunities look like. It definitely worked for me, but what why were you drawn to cycle
because I have a really offensive fear most psychology may majors, which is generally, from a pretty fucked up home and they they kind of wanted some answers or they themselves the drift in a little confused There's no need some answers. What was your passion I was asked whether maybe that's because I never wanted to do clinical. Psychology like I never wanted to be a shrink or help people. I was just fascinated by people. I was like one of these nerdy kids who, like you're the mom, was always like. Go go play with your friends like stopping out with adults like I just wanted to can be watching people and pay attention, time are you the oldest. I am the old as yeah area. I guess I was always psychologist. Even before I was technically and academic psychologist you're in it
I would like your interests is in interests I share, which is like. I am deeply curious about why people do the things they do like more than any other thing. I m most Vassili. Why do the things I do because up so often, I think I know why and then upon closer inspection I don't know why I do it or I have to learn Khazars, these biological impulses in the mixers. There's ego there's culture that is so dance how much stuff his country, into our decision. Making right do you think you know why you One did know why people work the way they did. People are just we're like where weird as organisms like there. No other species on the planet tat S kind of like here. We should be just one of billions of other species. Are there should be some species that are kind of like us? You know we're, just even our closest living relatives are smart, but they're, not making pod casserole having our around them like communicating like sharing ideas that are in my head with your head, like no other species. Does this works?
so weird, but at the same time, we're also just like not good at understanding our own psychology self insight is a problem for our species, even though we're so smart, and so I think that was something that always fascinated with me, and I think I was drawn to the discipline to be like on those figure this out and then what the discipline taught me is like what's built in is just all these biases all these stupid strategies, intuitions that are just complete. wrong and leading you astray all the time. Thanks a lot natural selection. Like wholeheartedly you no wait around for others, the socks yeah. For me, the tastiest thing I can learn while a Malcolm Gladwell is almost the entire work is in pursuit of debunking a very commonly held intuition mean that is deeply fun thing about psychology, but also a deeply frustrating thing psychology, because we get that our intuitions are wrong, but we actually Joe have fantastic solutions for fixing those into it.
like the mere actor realizing like hey by intuition, was wrong before it doesn't immediately updated, which means you can be like an experts Ike. G and have like the years of training that I do and still suck. I still have carried out its work lawyer and still get it wrong all the time. Do you think that humans. Actually, none of this is true, but I think it is that humans have the highest emotional capacity other animals, so we get blinded by the in a way that others, don't you. I think we're in part of the problem is like we're carrying around these sort of like old school emotions and tendencies. You're, some people call our lizard brain, but I don't know that terms fantastic, but basically like we were carrying around this old school architecture in our minds at the same time as we have these really smart frontal lobes that can be sent into all this stuff. But
interaction between those just doesn't work. There is also all these just we is that our brains are shaped that just make no sense whatsoever that now that I'm doing work and happiness space, one of the ones I've been super interested in recently, as it turns out that the circuits that govern wanting in the brain like how much what you free than what you go after are just completely different than the circuits that govern king, like we are actually going amnesia again. So I know leg from your history occupy know at this. You see this a lot in the context of addiction, rightly your crew. thing in the wanting systems like go get this jogger go get this thing, but then you get it and you're, like I'm supervision, waited to this distant, even work right and assistance. update, I mean it's just like not working in the way that we think and then the flip side is true right leg. All these things that feel really nice. When I do them. For me, it's like meditation or like a really hard core exercise, but I don't have like a craving like eyes you for thus sugary snack are like a drug user, would have for how and I'd have to like forced myself
like not announce, gonna feel good like just force yourself to do it, but then I like it and unlike systems, why can't you just friggin talk to her, like everything would be so much easier. Yet it is because the chemistry frontal lobe saying I have to imagine the frontal lobes kind of in charge of the pleasure behind meditating or things that are you know, are productive and positive for your future, in a sense that, though, the chemical, actually is in his strong, is that reward centre, one that is like Falk E kill all those things it there's just now comparison in the strength of those right yeah part of it is that They're, just certain things that wig outfits dope mean system ass. A reward system like Heroin was basically kind of almost like synthetic dog mean in certain ways like drugs mimic. These chemicals really well so part of its it. The chemicals are different for the good stuff that we really liked but part of its just like the systems are different. So the liking system is registering information, but it's not updating in the wanting system, and that just means there's. This disconnect does actually cool kind of technique
You can use to try to get it to update better. What actually is mindfulness and start taking time to pay attention, and you know if you are really mindful about what you like. You know, that's after meditating or like that, feels really good I feel really calm. Now you can kind of get your wanting system to notice a little bit cuz, it's like! Oh wait. There was a reward, their likes. What's a little dopamine like I should update things. yeah. My experience, because I'm a very big proponents exercise that I actually mentally have to link the negative thing, that's very, very powerful for me. So it's like, I know what I feel like in the absence of sir size, and that almost has to be my motivator versus the marginal uplifting. My mood after I acts or size. He I think, both of those our seas. and for the for me. For me, it's noticing the good parts. Afterwards, I tend not to do. It is wonderful yoga teacher at the end of a practice which take a moment when you're, each of to be like noticed how you feel right now, like
We notice how you feel and if it's different from how you felt when you start in whatever again my liking systems like wait a minute. This feels nice Let me say this again: you know we should get together again. I totally Ruth you have had that that that's insane post yoga like. While this is the sedative I always dreamt of when doing drug yeah, it's one of the many tools we don't employ when we're feeling bad. I mean there's evidence now that, like a half hour, a really strong cardio can be as effective as a prescription of civil oft, which is one of the leading entire depression medications, but psychiatry, don't prescribed, denote exercise of evil. They prescribe pharmaceutical. So we forget that there are other things that can give us those hits, especially for paying attention to the benefit. In the end, yeah. I think that any chess right in England they years ago stopped prescribing at this inhibitors for people with mild depression instead prescribed access to it or some kind of you now trainer related exercise that did yield
in the long term. Better results which is fascinating is tricky must feel like, though liking system is attracted to things that take time, that are slow processes and the wanting system is like a quick fix. Yet If you can get a heroine level banged your don't mean system. The wanting system notices that and it really exaggerate but yeah this, oh burns in out the it doesnt notice as much, but but again it's so frustrating when you think evolution airily, cause like of every quick hit evolutionary was like the thing that we really want it like I don't know United natural selection could a built in some slow burns. It had me allowed, but somehow I never did you you get the ba
biology and in psychology, and then you get your masters in psychology and then you get a phd in psychology all from arbored Monica Harbour. However, our harbouring Alice ass and you have the distinction we interviewed tall Bench are- and I do think it's interesting rare, the gates that he teaches the most popular class at Harvard which his unhappiness. And you teach the most popular class in the history of yell, which is also unhappiness yet so what I gleam from that. As we all do, wanna leave out the your I mean I think, that's like exactly the right intuition and which was also funny as they told it is about a decade before I did. You know his glass was huge and famous our word and then he went off and deep became a popularizing.
and then many years later I did the same thing at Yale and got all this press for it and what was funny was in every article I get interviewed for. I was like you know. This is like my day like their other schools. That did this before me, but that's somehow it never makes it into the media but yeah. I think people really want to figure out what they can do to be happy. You know- and I think in this day and age, people really evidence based strategies for what they can do to be happy these days. I think students are as much drawn to the humanities are great literature to explore this question of how to live a good life. I think like what does the science say about living? The wife, you gimme the Neuroscience of the good life and I think, that's part of what drew people to my entire class budgeting The fall. I think my readers, a lot of stuff in science right now, is just validating what great literature and philosophy told us before and would religions and things like that. But you know bracket it. I think what the way students one is they don't just want. You know to hear what somebody did their election,
the grass that this makes my anxiety better and then I'm gonna. Do it so ass to the exact point, I watched you on the news recently in reference to covered in your you'd, given five tips on how feel good in quarantine, and I got to say for the five or like tenants of aid- and I was like isn't this interesting- that, like some of these things are known, the dew eventually take data to be recognizes real. So your first Tipp was deep belly, breathing right it is important to explain? Does I think people can sometimes get pissed off? When I give this trip? Is everyone's had the experience of light in getting really mad? It sounds like just taken, Brown like enough enough, but but was scientifically. We know that this is one of the few ways we can hack our autonomic nervous system. So quick biology, less and even I didn't really
right, biology class, but I got enough you're. Never this part Seattle recently for that year, sympathetic nervous system is your fireflies system like evolution. Airily is built so that when there's like you know a lion about to jump out an attack you you can either freeze orfully like it's right like tat in your muscles gay, your heart beating, fast entities that has to shut down all the other normal systems, like your digestive system, shuts down your immune, function shuts down your sexual cisterna shut down just like runaway right, we are now in the context of covered in the context of lots of life stressors, just like activating that firefly system constantly right, it was were made to be on repeat, like a Youtube video that keeps going It was meant to play. They won two minute spot and then shut off, but we do that in the context of covert. I think it's really hard to shut off as this crisis isn't going away. The one
our bodies have to hack it other than actually shutting off. The threat, which is impossible, is too to regulate our breath such that our bodies think the threat is gone. You know of your sprinting from a lion. You cannot take deep breaths right, you're, just like just breathing you're like running a marathon right, but if you just like, really slowly take a deep belly breath. Then your mind is like Wang on. There can't be alive, we not runnin away anymore, there's no lion activate the vaguest nerve, and once you do that you kickin opposite system, which is the Paris and pathetic nervous system. That's what's like the rest and digest turns back on your immune function turns on your digestion and all that stuff, but the key is it the way you you kind of turning into high gear? The way? U turn The rest and digest is actually through your breath. That would have been. Naturally if the lion ran away and things went back to normal and it was chill you'd be taking deep breaths, but you can kind of force. It is there to hack the system. So this data, like usually peasant people off my chest,
A deep breath and Mcnerney was wonderful. Neuroscience is like hacking yacht another nervous system, totally worth your breath, and your heart rate in your brain are all connected up and you'd there. There are few ways to hack the system has its good. You don't wanna full control over your autonomic nervous system because, like you might not turn it on when it needs to go on, but this is one way we can do it in a nice way and has these corresponding effects on our her on what we're thinking about and were able to think about lots of evidence that those kinds of breath and reduce anxious thoughts. Right again, your minds are just like threat, threat, threat, threat, threat, where's the lion again like scale back and focus on the stuff. We want to focus on, I'm just now, realizing it as you explain it. I think. That's part of the major appealed to me for motor sports, your exercising this exact same thing. So every single turn is a challenge in every single turn. Has the the stakes of death? Potentially, I suppose so it forces you to be in control of that panic so that you're doing your best thinking in your staying com. Wallet, interest
up after lap of almost mastering vat of pushing met, feeling aside in keeping yourself aware in calm and making decisions and there's something very rewarding about that. That's a lot of people can I get a high from it, but so Self Report being like almost zen afterwards right now. Ability to lake shift back and forth can be really powerful cause. We definitely do like things that put us in Lake death situations is another stupid? Weird thing about human nature is that we love sticking ourselves into awful negative emotion situations like if I may use a huge fan of Halloween and I love watching these hundred houses that show the lakes step. Videos of people live. Looking out when they're getting scared, you showed those pictures to certain anthropologists who study, fear they'd be like these people are miserable, but these people pay like Sixty box in some cases to have someone do that to them. Why,
learning about that on here, a lot like what is happening there. I think, when we have fear of things we want to get as close as we can to the thing were afraid of, but in a safe way, so that we can process it like worked through itself. I think that's why we enjoy murder. Mystery shows because it's like it's our ultimate fear but were consuming it in a safe environment. We know we're safe, but we get to experience enough of it that we can kind of comprehend it. I don't give me a reason. Does not. I think people are still fight about that is actually a great mystery and my colleague carry out public as a whole book on s about how pleasure is kind of weird re, but that's one of the theories. It's like work sort of practices. What those things feel like an that's true for fear that stupor sadness rightly, why do people watch depressing movies? You know why do people watch? You know terms of endearment or some feeling really super super safe,
that's down. The leg was, I feel, good right, but we like to engage those things like ear and sadness, even discussed or pain. Sometimes all those people who eat the really hot hot chile peppers. So it's almost at the point of really heard in your mouth, but that bad, I'm gonna get you out so much. I told the story once on here, but I have this very distinct childhood memory of coming up on a pile of horse poop in the woods, and I could not stops and it was making me sick and I hated it, and yet I just didn't even walk away, and then I d go back and look again and again to the brink of throwing up. I have no clue why that was happening, but it was a good fifteen minute exercising just grossly myself out yet look.
Half the sub read it sooner. Pleasant thing really dig is where it anyway get another feature of the mind. By back to the breath, I think regulating your breath controlling your sympathetic nervous system is a way that we can make the threat not is threatening right now and ass. I use it. I can watch myself Qaeda guerrillas, just of em panics rolling on Twitter and I've just been realising like ok. This is the time to do just like three do belly, breaths and afterwards you just you feel so much better. Yeah, ok, number who was due acts of kindness and, of course, for in a way that is like be of service. You have to be of service, its attendant so tell us the advantages of doing acts of here. I mean the advantages are huge and I think our culture just really doesn't realise and is another spot where I think our intuitions lead us a stray, but also our culture like right. Now, it's all about like tree yourself, like South Carolina soon as covert kicked in. It was like article after article about
asked self care which is like again. It's not that about jobs are bad, but the point is there: is an opportunity cost to do stuff for other people already and saw all these data suggesting happy people do nice stuff for others acquainted for income, you're, happy person, you tend to give more to charity, you tend to volunteer more and they some lovely work by folks like was done and others that show that if you force people to spend their money on other people, they end up happier than if you forced them to spend their money to do something to treat themself yeah well. Ok, so an air explanation of that is my real problem is thinking about myself and all my needs and then maybe, but when I'm helping you it's nearly impossible to be thinking about my own desires and wants in so I'm just stepping out of that craving, like it forces me to stop thinking about myself and I great relief in not thinking about myself now really, I think, as we get inward focused in out again, that this is what the Buddhist again getting back to injure traditions realized desired soon as you satisfy it? It just gonna come back right and so that
you know the craving is just going to be a vicious cycle that you can never get over, but the hit that you get from helping somebody. You can kind of do that again, like you get the sort of good, so warm glow as scientists call it from kind of helping other people. This is the sort of happiness that we get from doing nice things for others. It just kind of feels goods above gets you out of your head, but it's also that you get kind of a double reward. Hake is like it feels good to help another person, and then the research suggests it also helps you social action right is often the people were helping our social relationship that is gonna give back to us. You know their service that you're doing in a which is and with other attics. You know those people could help you and you're in a tough time, so you're developing these meaningful important social relationships, which is also surprised exactly up. We we had this discussion the other day about being chair at a ball and what, That's just ye go or not, and I was arguing Know- and you were saying everything stems from a selfish
speck I'm oven and ran point of view that you can't do anything on planet earth. That's not selfishly motivated now you could have different, sell this motivations that have outcomes that are beneficial to all, but that you didn't there's no way you can pretend that is this organism on planet earth you not first, starting with your own desire. I guess yes in our. I like that is borne out by an evolutionary respect. Natural selection will hopefully not believing stuff in that was actively bad for our own reproductive successes. Wouldn't do that right? That might not be the motivation in your head when you're doing it and so as anti policies. Primarily, these biologist distinguish between what they call the ultimate level, which is likewise it selfish for your own survival and reproduction verses. What's approximate level which is like what does it feel like to you? right now in your head right, and so you know, if you think about why you might wanna, have sex with somebody at the ultimate level that is always about getting your genes into your next generation right. That's why the instincts there, but that the proximate level you're, not thinking about babies like you're, probably thinking
bout like movies are alike. I didn't even leave anyone know that made a baby for years. when or why are you here, and so my guess is like doing these things for others. When people have this motivation work, the same went right like selfishly natural such like all, help other people, because reciprocity and you'll get all these goods leader, and this is so great, whereas the proximate level were like, we just feel better. If we do know stuff further people are. We just really are motivated to do my stuff, rather people, so so sometimes it can be bought, and, like that's good Dwyer, yet I think there is theirs diminished returns when we satisfy ourselves. So I can buy the perfect house and then I can buy the perfect couch and I can make the perfect meal and I can have the perfect one in a certain point. I'm just gonna max out on things I can do for myself to amp pleasure. It just keeps falling off, whereas every person you help in the gratitude that you experience, that's not a diminished return, it doesn't kind of run out yeah. I think
it is something that happiness researchers are just starting to figure out, which is like so everything we do for herself. Has this adaptation? The researchers got he done adaptation right. Words like you, buy yourself a new foreign and is awesome for the first week. But then you know overtime. You just get used to provide new border bike and the first time you write it it's great, but then time number, eighty seven you write it. You just bored with it, but what's weird, is the acts of kindness that we do to other people? Don't have that feed? I think they're, like individualism there's a moment. You do act of kindness and then you do another one. Like you, just don't get the adaptation to doing more of them. Each one is as good ahead, and so you, u cleaner and up helping yourself by invest in doing that stuff. For others. Could you just is not subject to this adaptation over time, the up farm there
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folks who really wanted to control their emotions. You know the first chapter and Epictetus, who is one of the main stomachs book? Is there to things in life the things you can control the things you can't control right, like totally serenity the man. You know the Buddhist said this wonderful parable about control of their second era that I use all the times, as one of the things has been getting me through this crisis, a lot. So the story goes this a Buddhist asking his followers. If you're walking down the street stuck with an arrow. Like somebody shoot you, the arrow is that bad elements as yup super bad like I, if you're working on it and you get her the first era and then someone shoot you with a second arrow. Is that worse than just the first narrow people say, yeah two arrows or worse than one in the Buddha goes to explain the first arrow is out of your control. Like that's the circumstances in life, that's the lake. Shit happens right, but the second arrow is on you like It's your reaction to it. That's if you have a drink when things are bad. Are you yell at your partner, or you like
are mad and stew about that. One email for the whole day like Buddha, points out. That's on you, and so they just don't stabbed yourself with the second arrow. Right and so for me in this crisis, I've been just like trying to figure out. Where are these spots Second arrows right. You know that nation on the internet is scary, but the fact that I chose to look at it for four hours and not go to bed on time. That's on me right, but there's real power and realizing, I think, is also hopeful for attics right, because I can think of addiction and craving all that stuff can feel out of control. But when you realize your reaction to the craving is in your control than your leg, aright game on this is a thing I can work on. This is me I can do this. You know Odin, rifle yeah and then my favorite thing on them for exercise and healthy food. They know we forget that what we put into our body affects our brain and in sleep is another one. In this kind of category four healthy immune function. We need decent food and some exercise.
And good sleep, but we need that for mental health to open the exercises giving you these natural highs of pushing your body, no moving your at around giving yourself a threat, kind of rubs up the sympathetic nervous system, but in a healthy way that shots off when you're done like is just good for us and I feel like we needed more than ever as we need to promote. and to halt during this time, but also a lot of us. The exercise we normally did before is harder. Now, you're, even but who are a kind of sedentary you're, probably like walked around the neighbourhood or like walked to the car, to drive to work, and I got out of a car and walked around you think the internet thinks the step counties broke it like to some stuff county. Nevertheless, while we off by order of magnitude this What's going on the US side? Yes, I think we got a double down on good and good cardio good, healthy exercise. what there was an article in the New York Times yesterday that I read about the value. and even short, like even five second birth,
of exertion. What it does your body is, it actually helps break up. The trackless arrives. I realize, like other so many ways, up. So I work out for an hour that day, but then they sit for about eight hour horse in a veto. Git up every a black horse in kind of move that body which you would do at work. You jump up and run the elevator whatever you do, that cycle of like little glass or at the actually end up having an impact on how many trite glycerine you have the following day, which is like a great scenario thing about that, like I gotta work out and then also gotta, like just jump up and spread across the room, every you know our yeah. although the Good NEWS there I mean, I agree, it's like work to do that, but the Good NEWS there is like it doesnt actually take them much time. in Iraq would be that every hour we did you like a half hour it over half hour and half hour of public bodies. Don't need that much they just kind of need yadda yadda stuff. So that is true. Ok, now five. This is one of the few things I think is absolutely magic on planet earth. Like there's no reason that this house, the cascading affected
just does immense gratitude number five so granted this another won the super counter cultural or you are not in a grateful society right now, we're in a great, be society right now I see. in my students, there are obsessed with means. Another meeting also has provided an ax household rate, but, like you know, they complain about the dining. Are they complain about this? They complain about that in its just like the culture there consuming time, but happy people don't do that. Happy people are spontaneously grateful. If you ask happy people other days going, they don't listen, bad things. They list the good things and there is research showing that we can hack that our selves, just by like forcing your brain, to go to the good things which we can all do just by thinking of a few good. Things are happening in our life, but the consequences are huge. So one of the consequences of gratitude, for whatever reason, is that it helps with self regulation, which is basically like saying no to the tempting things in our life, so people who are more grateful even who are facing things like addiction and so on, do better
facing temptation. Dave Desteno is a professor northeastern. He has this idea that social emotions are for cooperation right and so therefore kind of taking care of somebody else's need ahead of you are so when you're grateful, you're kind of thinking like oh, oh all, these blessings I have right now. I could do something for somebody else like I'm good right and it causes you to be okay with self sacrifice I'll bet so people, when you put them in a grateful state, are more willing to save money for tomorrow, rather than spend it today there better able to forego temptations. You don't think that, like always Three things I'm great before and it helps you avoid alcohol, but, like the data suggest magically, it does again it's all very primitive, which is if you're coming for- scarcity mentality, where you're very aware of all the things you do not have in your focused on the things you do not have an you want, you feel, like you, don't have enough, so Of course, you can't share you, don't even have enough for you, but if you're, regularly reminding yourself of all the
no amazing things you have, then, of course you feel, like you have some despair. That's exactly right. Yeah, like I think the idea They all our emotions are for something. We don't just feel something they're kind of motivating us to do something right. And gratitude is. The motion that we think is like part of motivating us to cooperate is like one No because of somebody does something nice for us they reciprocate or something we feel grateful Eurylochus, that's great. The somebody did it any ideas. Natural selection to somebody did something nice for you. You got this benefit, you better, give it back before they. Let you know to stop wanting to be your cooperative partner, you better jump yet as a symbiotic relationship that you need to nurture cause your benefiting exactly? But the consequence in our kind of proximate system is like we just have more resilience. You know we can forego temptation we can just allow ourselves to do part goals that we really want to do. But to take a little bit of work,
Logically, scribbling down. Three things are grateful for everyday helps with that it claim is like just the experience of that can make you be like Earth Tsar problem, but I'm ready to face it, which is crazy. I mean it's crazy that the active scrolling down the few things were grateful for can give us that resilience. We have this like superpower, that's just sitting there We could use whatever, but we cannot choose not to what it is that it is the great challenge of all mental health issues, as you are asked to do something in your worst states or the time you need at the mouth of the time. You have the least amount of willingness to do anything or appetite to do anything in, and I get it it's it's they all things are like self, accelerating, that's. Why am I live? I always say this in in shares, which is like my bodies: never in homeostasis ever never husband, it's always getting worse for me it's always accelerating up adding things that are making me feel better or I'm,
slowly losing ground, and then I had the ice cream. Now I slept in now and then just going downhill, many crash unburned. Then I gotta reclaim the mountain you know just for me, I'm never in a state of just like contentment happiness of their individual differences of people who feel that more than others by the sign suggest that that's just true for everybody. My colleague Nick aptly he's a professor at the university Chicago. Has this analogy. He says happiness is like a leak attire you know like it might be puffed up for a while, but it slowly going down and then you gotta, your experience is granted you to do some exercise to do something nice for somebody and kind of pump it back up, but this idea of happily ever after we just like hits of level and we're good. That's never true for any good thing in life. You know like if you're trying to get gains at the you know just like do leg day on Thursday, and you like, I got no more like the Hague like they got, NL. I always use like we seem to all of us understand the paradigm of physical fitness, which is like there's no last rap with sustained great body for life this is an endless pursue in there.
How's the exact same. Can I did virtual quickly to talk about means because he brought it's always of him. actually related to this, because at the beginning of Cove id means were worry. Where I mean, and I'm not into that generally, I got so in Jos extending my friends and excited to see the new one of the day, but everyone was passing around and it felt weird because, like I don't do this, but there was something about feeling connected people that, like, oh they're, going to the exact same thing that I am I related that I relate to that. I relate to that and you like laughing, because it's so dead on. I didn't look at that as a people are complaining. I looked at it everyone seeing each other right now, and I think this is this is tricky right, because we do get the hell out of me. You do yet there
right there. You know my. Let me tell you this coworker, I hate and you'll, be like all by God. Let me tell you about Michael. We kind of share that, and we are in this weird time where it's not just like my problem that I wanna grape about and you have to listen. We all have the same problem, the literary all over the world to her all facing the same problem, and so I think we can get some connection out of the great being like it is a benefit of it by there's an opportunity cost of a different, It can act which is through the gratitude. Yes, so this other emotion of just expressing what you are thankful for can be really powerful, especially if you do it to other people. You know there is evidence that if you you're a manager, and you work on a team. You express gratitude to your teammates. It can increase their performance by and a half times sexism work by Adam Grandma. I think you were gonna day yeah fans, but that's crazy, that you know the simple act of expressing gratitude to people
he's so powerful. There's one study by Marty Seligman, but it may be kind of one of those studies. Words like a particularly big effect in the one publish studied. I think it's really huge that the act of writing a gratitude letter to somebody can significantly by your well being for over a month. Genuinely writing a heartfelt letter. Thanks to someone can be that powerful. I think you know the griping feels good but leg. That's if it's a quick feed and I think the end were kind of like you know, and sometimes you can. If you do it too much in is not there any kind sort of sticks with you and so yeah honour season to have our podcast? We did a whole episode about griping and I want to find like expert level. Riper aside, I brought in the guys from reply all that podcast Tab Tags Golden, and so I forced them to do great, The latter is as follows: if only what they were Filipino, it's really counterculture often I'm, but they were feel in it. You know they felt good afterwards outbreak so
I listen to an episode happiness LAB podcast, which is your podcast, which is under Malcolm's Kennedy. What you didn't even know he had and toilets, and yours, which is exciting and makes me want to explore all their stuff. but you had one on grades and, as is apparent of two children and were like war, just gettin in the canoe and start no paddle down stream of this whole weird thing: there were so many fascinating things and they even the history of it. Let s start with the name as soon as I heard that the guy who virtually invented the ABC De System, albeit it was written in latin and above all, to that His name is Ezra and it is our thinking. The only as far I know we're like hyper intelligent, and I want the frequent skies to study. That name,
that is so fastening design and are now but real major major sidebar that Mr Azra created grades. He didn't know what he was doing. This is as restyle president of your back and eighteen, hundreds and he'd judges had his students have an exam, because before that there were no great it's like grades aren't even that all their like. Only a couple hundred years, all you heard the structure and you can't even comprehend. what what instruction in learning would be without those grades. Everything is just crazy. Emily, I'm in the basic data like that, you wanted to learn re like that.
went to school right, so you are motivated to you this styles. At this moment he was like ash. Pride is right down. How did you know and in what was interesting is two things. One is. If you look at his grades, he did Latin Fer, you no kind of priorities which was bad and four different latin levels, but the highest level. There was the with the most kids got like. There was great inflation, even from the momentum for heads rate, which is quite interesting, but the thing is that he didn't tell his learners about their grades. It was just kind of his private, like how did I do as a teacher area who got it? Who can you didn't do so all right, and I think all of that has changed a lot. Not only two kids know their graves, but their obsessed with them. You know, I'm not sure. How would you kids are you're just on the start, but you already. They know that Greece or a thing and that their being evaluated- and I mean they, get evaluated in like pre schools. They get their little. You know how well they shared and all this stuff- and I think you know it matters for them. Re in a matter for parents rank as we kind of soak up this culture where grades mean along
well in that selfish way, as it were. Really it's a reflection of our own ego like we're doing a good job of ruin, a bad job. So it's like now are inheriting you stupid grades, exactly exactly lot. Appearance react incredibly strongly with this now at Yale, where, in the midst of this pandemic, YO people don't have access to wifi there and these Jackie situations, many institutions just said you know what no grades a semester just pass fail. Everything's just pass veil and we get parents who write to us fighting this that was like my kind, was on the verge of a minus this semester and he can't get it now. What can I do like ip? Seventy five thousand dollars- and I want my kid till I get a avis semester in your leg- we're in a pandemic quick blurred I, your kids, a minus, isn't it a bloodline, whore you're, Magna cloudy, and I was magna commodity and is a cornerstone of myself esteem. So I can relate
I do not see silvo. It's crazy, though, is that I think he, especially in the current time the data are suggesting that the grades are doing more harm than good They? What they are doing is their reducing the students intrinsic motivation. So, every time you stick and extrinsic motivator on something now doing it for the love of it anymore. You're doing it cause you're getting some other award misstep tracker. We were talking about right, you, you might just start its fund a walk around, but as soon as you get it, fit bit that's kind of greeting you are giving you stars are giving you doing when you do a good job of you. Express extra is growing. like I do, all of a sudden. It's like is not about the steps anymore. It's about that good, be at the end, something like that and then you get obsessed strike. It doesn't feel good anymore. You want to compete with other people You know it's no longer about what it started, which is. It would just feel good to move my body now. It's like it's a thing. There's a wonderful David, Sir Darras essay about this, because I think the fit bit brain where he gets a fit, but an Easter
freaking out and waking up super early to get his steps in there, like not hang out with the people. He cares about his really obsessed and then it breaks and then he kind of realizes you know I'll, just proving that he had four numbers that were like stupid but but Finally, we in our society have turned learning into the kids. Like learning just for learning sake like it's fun to do, puzzles it's fun to learn its fun to get better. When you slap agreed on it, it's like saps the desire that kids would naturally bring to this otherwise fun activity and makes it kind of yucky. It makes about the great and those data that braids increase the desire to cheat so mixed kids cheat more because if it's all about the great, if it's not about learning just, do it the quickest way possible. Even if it's a little dastardly, there is evidence that grades make students take on less hard assignments, believe you're just doing it for the great no picked the easy. But why would you pick the long one like it?
super easy one to get the EZ grade right. It was a gentleman you interview, cuz. He was so mad that I enjoy listening to him speak. He has such a handle on this thing, and he said you know we tend to blame. The students were like how they don't even want to learn. They just want the a and we'll know the system is set up to get AIDS. That is the incentive. So what are you talkin about you're disappointed that they didn't read? The Iliad instead of catcher in the rye of course they did because they, the aim, is the incentive. It's. The goal this guy Archie Cochrane. He like AIDS grades, even more than I do, aroused strong a very strong statement. By yeah I mean he pays data really suggest it's making, kids, not just that they hate learning like the best kids can get the best grades, hate learning them
which is just tragic, and they also have the lowest levels of happiness, as well as the lowest levels of self esteem and optimism right, and so this pursue of grades. Like should be, I mean you think, the nerdy kids get. The aids are the kids who I really love learning, but these days is not its opposite: they're, the ones who are the most miserable you, this great job of pointing out that sort of people three letters and you ask them what word. That is what is an anagram and then, if you give em, you gave us a three letter, one of five letter one and would greatly was doing it real time and so is Kristen cause. I was on the toilet, listen you loud, and she was listening to and You get to a nine letter word. So what you'd there's a sweet spot in learning right, which is if it's really easy? It's not that fun. If it's kind of challenging you can get it it's really fun. And then, if it's too hard, it's not funny. Why pursue it, but that Grating system will actually steer people into wanting to do the three letter anagram because they will get an aid for, and that is now the outcome we want. As opposed to the pleasure
of being challenged and then in persevering that so rewarding and fun, but bit blobs. That system or that's not, even why you would do it anymore. Exactly is both not fun and you end up engaging in practices that make you learn. The least you know like like imagine if we did this like for fitness, like you like, I'm just going to like the lowest way over and over again, because, like you, do my ten wraps right, but you never challenge yourself, you just don't progress right and I think what we ve done is create a system where it's not about progress is not about them. Loving learning is not about their mental health because we're seeing, like you know, huge hits and happiness because of grades. It's really about some arbour hurries thing that we're want kids to do, and I do think it's a little bit about like parental kind of ego and their arbitrary thing that your kid is doing to which is even more dangerous. I think but what is an a has, no value. Only in its relativity a bee exists right. There's no such aid doesn't mean anything. I could define in any way I'd like so long as it's above be so
Was it in that? To me is comparison. It be great if an immense something new. that you would achieve some level that we all respect, but in fact it's just that you beat the rest of the people or that you beat the be right if you, if you go up up up up up stream, that's this here bit of hardware. We have that were social and where all obsessed at all times with our status in our group, where we have anxiety about. Where are we in this huge group, and this has been com? and by the fact that we used to live as a group of a hundred people. Now we're living in is a group of seven billion people, so anxiety levels only. You know when up exponentially, as we don't know where we fit in this. So then we we come up with this arbitrary architecture to allow us to figure out where we're What did you think social hierarchy is so at the base
all this stuff, oh yeah. I definitely and I think it's one of the reasons students are so much more anxious now re is that you know before back. When I went to college like I was keen cortical competing with like other people, but you know I was doing my best now. I think a consequence of the fact that literally anybody can get into a school again if they have, and grades. You know your income. Does it matter your prep school? It matter means these kids are competing with other billions of kids out there, and that is really anxiety provoking, and there is a perception that the spoils of the war are really high and so kisser foregoing sleep, their mental health, all this stuff to get perfect grades to get into a place like email and then they get there and there came a miserable. You know it's kind of Bacchus hedonic adaptation that we talk at that moment that they find out is really a great moment like students a year when they get in these days they dont get a letter like I got back in the day. They click on this little link online. And they get a little video, it says that you got into Yale class a tiny, tiny foreign like places like bulldog bulldog power. Please
So there are videos online if you watch. This is kind of some feel good, wholesome meme content, like students clicking on finding Alex meaning incited up what students often report is the moment after that click when they're really excited they have this lake incredible emptiness because it was like that was all I was workin for, like I really love chemistry or near my stupid extracurricular as I was get this moment to get in and now happen now, like. Ok, there's the rest of my life like. What's what's the next area, like all Austrians reward, you know, and Europe what we now a value waiting the the effort verses reward like while that was four years of effort in it was for that. Forty second moment is that a good cost benefit This is exactly in the end. There happened right back on that treadmill goes now they're like right now I gotta go to yell where this in a spoiled the worries and higher and they haven't figured out. Do you actually love chemistry? You know maybe I'll be a photographer, maybe you'd really loved to be a janitor weed,
Oh, you know no one thing and then gradually top your clothes and then get the best job and then get promoted in the best position at the door. It never was driving. All of it is this primates stats thing I am was so flattered to get to give this feature that the answer class closet you see lay last year or the year before the thing I pointed out, If I go to the Hollywood bowl to watch a concert, I mean, be in the sea. That is absolutely optimum for sound for them. Ability to the stage all these things, but I will throw out all of the objective things that are good about that. and I will evaluate while others, three Rosa hadda me, those three rose or people have higher status than me. They paid more so they have jobs that you know, for whatever reason I am now uncomfortable because what the simple knowledge at there's three rose at are better than mine, even if their objectively, not better than my. We have higher Archy hardware,
during that is just killing us in my only suggesting that anyone there was do not compare yourself than any one else. Compare yourself the previous versions of yourself. That's the only comparison you should be allowed to do in your life. I mean this is one of the worst hits on our well being that you can have, which is that I will be, isn't about our absolute position, amount of money. You know happiness lover, whatever it's about a relative amount of money. Have you someone so on, and that means you can be objectively killing it, but still feel really awful and one of our podcast episodes. We talk story of Mikhail Maroni, who she was a gymnast who won the silver metal and she was a meme from- time this thing called the face. She was on her silver metal platform. I think she was trying to lake kind of hold back how pissed off she wasn't. She may quite obviously supervised,
and so you can ask the question like she just one, the silver metal like she just like one in olympic metal. That proves that she is better than everybody else on the planet except one person, and it turns out that that is enough. Make you feel really off all those hardware again then. Actually, their studies on is the Sky Tom Golovin she's, a psychologist it Cornell, he actually looks at video list of silver, metal winners and codes like their amount of smiling and finally, there not just like less happy than the gold, but their actively showing emotions like contempt, and discussed at length, but what's really weird about it, is that and then in this kind of gives us some hope about how to deal with the system. Is that if you look at the bronze medalist, They actually super happy.
Some pieces happier than the gold medals, because, what's their social comparison like they were not gonna get the gold there. Like many seconds aware there score was really shitty or whatever, but their thinking. If I just like screwed up a little bit more, I would not be on the stand. I would be like everybody else who didn't make it and so their reference point, which is which kind of science of term for this is like everybody else. He didn't make it, whereas the silver medalists reference point is the gold, and this is where a kind of the insight comes in a bar. You can deal with this, which is that we can control that we experience reference points that built into our primary heads, but we can sometimes take action to shift those reference points if we pay attention use. Our natural reference point is sadly, because of our negativity, biased, the one that makes us feel really crappy. That's like what our brains naturally go too, but you actually shifted. In our view, the Hollywood you could be like hang on. Let me look at the thought.
Sense of reckless behind me yeah yeah. Oh my god, this is really agree, and so gratitude is one of these techniques. Actually, that allows us to pay attention to be like hang on. I could actually be back there. You do the reverse counterfactual and that can it doesn't make you feel as good as the bad comparison makes. You feel bad, but it can kindness stop that negative social comparison about the others is great. We're gonna be rubber, the broken ladder, and it's all about income inequality in the talks about their our cultures that you no kind of consistently down. Compare and there's cultures that consistently up compare in. U S, of course, is like the perks of up comparison and it does it work, and we in our natural reference point is the one that makes us feel pretty bad about our solving what's amusing. Is it will totally shift depending on like what metric you're using like if you're an actor metric, it's gonna be like Brad Pitt, but if you're in the leg motorbike metric its- be brought arousing. Ok, Valentino,
I saw a lot of this is the sad thing is you can get objective Lee as good as possible, but there still gonna be, and this is this is, I think, where we make, work. Modern technology, you're gonna talk about how we can shape our modern world to fit with our evolution. Our modern world really screws this outbreak because you'd fifteen ago, we still had this architecture that was caused Mr socially, compare these damn ways, but we didn't have people stupid, Instagram, wives, profiles with dislike curated, perfect body in content and lighting all this stuff in seventy deleted photos for the ones that get on there, and that makes us feel even crappy or even worse, because people are posting all the best motorbike days or the bad acting can days there just perfect posting the perfect stuff, oh yeah state arms. If you dare We are supported by square now. Monica you know about HOT Sam's in Detroit. Tell me: will they ve been selling men's clothing for a hundred years and for the first time in its
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questionnaire to help assess your needs and get match with a council in less than twenty four hours. It's so easy to schedule. The secure videophone sessions with the therapist plus you can exchange unlimited messages. Better help is a truly affordable option. An arm chair is get ten percent off their first month with the discount kodaks. So why not gets today, go to better help, dotcom, Slash Dax, that is better help. Ici LP, dot, com, slashed acts, talk to a therapist online and get help what what interesting thing that you said you did in your happiness class having explored grades and recognising the outcome. You. What what are they yeah credit de here Those kind of like a lot of schools are doing now with past fail, except you had this. Why?
distinction. We're ahead was called credit de fail because it's kinda hard till I get a d like it's really hard to fail, a class at Yale. In all honesty like you, basically after, like not show up at all and so credit Diaz like you, either get credit which is basically like past, are you get a d and fail, and so on? This is like a slightly harder thing than pass. Bianca's very few people actually fail. You know, but you could get a d if you're really can a screwing around and so yeah hadn t normally like, where we're not in covert time. That's the grating system is therefore both well actually shore. I broke her right now. Pretty much every university in the country is past. Fail. I think again because of this crazy, great stuff, because your people are in the midst of a pandemic. They don't have wifi, their family might be sick, they might be a mere no compromise, but they still can't shut off this desire for the extra reward enough to be like you not screw the semester, I'm not gonna care.
Dela DR themselves into mental health dysfunction to kind of fight with and in it was tricky on campus, because this sort of idea of sir promoting universal pass or pass fail became this sort of social justice charge that like this was the way we protect people who are lagging these bad some stances and blah blah blah, which I get. This is because we have a broken system if you're in a bad said you
sure. Just you know screw it. No one seemed to care what grades you got in spring of twenty twenty every is gonna. Look at that semester, while you're that symmetric no one's gonna care- rightly I you know it so. The fact that people couldn't stop carrying, I think, is a symptom of this awful culture of grades. Our end right now, you're in so so you been in There- was this world of agony me over the last twenty five twenty seven years or something broil you and a girl from what you see is that there is an increased level of anxiety and depression. Yards has been ramping up year after year, like shockingly so and a big spike in the last five years, as both my anecdotal experience in what the data really show yeah just the level of like suicide, allergy and extreme anxiety is just kind of heartbreak.
You know, and you see these students just are going through just real mental health anguish and there, like eighteen and there's some different explanations right. None of them are facts yet they're all theories. I think we are Jonathan hide on, and you know the parenting is being questioned over the last twenty years and it is the lack of coping mechanisms, parents or other kids to acquire and the challenges and all these things. So those are- well documented, and I think there's validity and all them, but also you know like it or not, will you and I can rage against Instagram for the next five thousand years? you ain't goin anywhere people lie like Instagram, even when it makes me feel shitty. So it's not going anywhere life's not can a slow down. This is, can be more technology. Cynical, and becomes like you're, not gonna beat it. So how can we adapt to it? The mere notion you said it will needed your TED talk like you're flew to that location. You didn't flapping.
arms you're doing things you shouldn't? Do you get in the car? You go eighty miles an hour, that's not a natural pastime for a primate So our brain is its ill equipped on. So many levels took to be a part of a group that seven billion in size. That's not how we're supposed to do it. What what's in the future that we could do do view of? Yes, I think I honestly other people are marked a mistake, use em optimistic, but for this I'm really scared rate, because I think we still don't know what this technology is doing. To our psychology and I'm actually less worried about social media me we get. I think everything you said about social media is true. It makes us horridly social come here even he's domain. You don't care about, like somebody today posted this awesome lake, lentil soup and isolate the highest Likewise, it I'm going to live. I guess I'd feel bad about myself or a local soup Lincoln
later Yale, professor and you like you're a fucking failure, because you can now also be so that so like that's aside, and I think we all get it, but will we don't get, is what technology is doing to us in ways that we don't notice and that's the research I'm scared by, because it's not just that social media is really Temple for us in distracting for us its leg, all the technology on the other side of that phone ray and so in your arm means. As you know, crave stuff, that's cool and we have given a stimulus that is completely unprecedented in the history of the human species. like never have. We had access to the library Alexandria, every cat video on the internet, all this porn, you know, so liberty, like newsletters, all the emails, I've ever guidance since ninety. Ninety nine, like my brain that's on the other side of my Iphone in. I might like to be in this conversation with my husband but there's part of my That's like about this conversation is as good as it looks
thirty percent of the cat videos or like. Maybe we should text and still we like to think we have brains that can shut it off, but the new date are starting to suggest that the mere presence of fawns is screwing us up. In all these ways we don't realize list he's a professor at UBC has been doing lovely work on this fine. But if you have your phone out and awaiting experiments where she brings points like a fake waiting room and you can have your phone outward away, they ve collected it before you, I really even using it, for she finds is that people smile thirty percent less at the people around them when their phone is out, even if you're, not you look it enjoyment of activities and presents like say you get a massage again you're, not using your phone, it's just there. It's like reducing your enjoyment of the massage, and it makes sense why
there's gotta be party. Your brain is like none and pay attention to the massage dont go on ready right now, like no there's pie, nothing on red. It uses this constant kind of distraction and it's a constant stimulus. Let's face it. It's like designed to be better than most of the stuff in the real world. You know have a nice cup of coffee or playing with your kid. The internet is cool, the map it just all right, I can tell you from experience. Cocaine gives me alive full of serenity and contentment. Because my brain, is just so satisfied with the phone is one thing I can say that you ve been compares to that were outward two hours can go by and I dont question anything about what I got it. Do I'm just in my experience. All self is just fulfilment level that really can only be compared to cocaine because is designed to be like cocaine. it's designed on the premise of a slot machine? I mean the folk
who do a lot of the original designs for new. How these algorithms organs on our called dopamine labs there they their onto something of what they're doing there not idiots, but we know the outcome of the experiment of putting that kind of slot machine in six billion pockets around the world and what is going to do to social connection was going to do to mere presence of paying attention to what your life feels like right now, I think we just don't know, and so my one hope about what we can do to do better is that internet companies don't wanna be the cigarette industry like Facebook doesn't want Cigarette industry, the Iphone, does only the cigarette industry, they know what its doing to us, but they also know that they have to maintain the safe balance where they want us to be addicted to it, but not yet. So bad that gun regulators come in, are we all say like screw it? I'm going back to my flip phone there. Also in competition for me, tension economy vacant only be
Oh good or they're gonna lose out to the other competitor. That's exactly right to an answer. I think they're kind of starting to build in things like your Iphone now tells you how much time you spent on your phone right and I think nobody ever looked at the Iphone like listing would like. I should really like slacken online phone today like I should like us to grant a little bit more like that's, not why they put in their so so my sense if they are trying to help with this. They are trying to give us tools, and so my senses, that the future is that ultimately, we're gonna need some social norms to navigate the stuff better norms about when we use our phones, how present they are in our lives. How much were allowed to kind of forego normal social interact to do this stuff and we'll have that and families will have their and workplaces, and I think once we build those norms in is a society that maybe we'll get better you no kind of like smoking or you can do it like not on a plane, not
you know in schools, not on your house at all, yet so that's the whole yeah utopian future would be one where that its normal, that when you go to a friends house, oh yeah, we don't do that during this time. We put that away in its though I guess we'll take brave people at the beginning to to get the ball rolling, but yeah. I would love it if I got invited to a game night and it was. I hey phone free Game night Yom. There, leave my phone in the car. You know here We need we need somebody to make like cooled structures for our house new pieces of IKEA Furniture, that's like the foreign hole. You're like when you walk in somebody's house and there's like the shoe area, you take your shoes off there's. Also like you slide your phone in it and it like closes, and you can't see it and then you just have your day and have your normal social interaction and we need. We need more of that stuff. The problem is when
ones, are stealing our attention. They do it in a way that blind to us, we often notice like we don't notice. The smiles were not making it the people around us or the conversations we're missing with our espouses, because we don't notice what we don't notice, as I think we need more awareness of what these technologies are doing to our attention and to our social fish and chips like what you said at the beginning house, students. Now they want scientific proof as to why they should do X, Y and z there not just gonna. Take it anecdotally, there's gonna be a lie, studies about exactly why this is harmful like why we note tobacco is hot. Smoking is harmful as opposed to like just watch less tv, no one's watching less tv. You know we're gonna have to have some proof. We weaken guy, agree completely and then the problem is that that's really hard because your lease was smoking. There are some people who did it oh great, where I who raising study only grandparents is the control group or like that, one guy from your work does a freak as Stuyvesant written form like out.
I am sure that in Belgium augur simultaneous anything that any data derived from that guy. What a psychopath well Laurie! I think everyone should check out happiness, lab podcast, so great in very much in the vein of male Something has immediately reminded me of the great revision. Is history episode about how useless else scores are in the success of an attorney, ultimately career wise. I loved hearing man, it's it's in that vein. It's great Is there anything else you want to tell us about that? We should check out now. It's great go check out happiness, Ipod, gas. We get a new season come in now and also bunch episodes on covered nineteen, if you want special help for how you can stay mentally healthy during this crazy time, and also in role in your class at Yale. You know it seems easy to get anything like a scale. Tat turns out turns out. We did put it online we greens hotter and my seventy thousand people immediately signed a year. We had a meeting. We had a two million in just the last
I think, all born at home and want a few things to do in and are focused on what they can do be happy. Why do people find out what we were too big over there? He asked it. I wasn't corcyra the Oregon. It's called the science of well being the science of wellbeing. Ok, fantastic raising! Malcolm wasn't wrong? You're awesome! We love you. We hope you'll come back and talk to us as you write, more learn more and come up with more theories would love it thanks. So much rather me thank Laurie and now my favorite part of the show, the black jack with my soul, Batman faction. Take two were recording vat check number two. Let's start with some did missions by Dan Shepherd, there's two whoppers also with an emission first
I was late today. Oh am I m normally not lay, and I don't like it. I just made me happy because our own, she knows what I'm feeling like online. There was a rush really literally has can't you can't get out of that. Damn house gas and then matches messes up here of most beautiful blue sweat tracks. You step on. It Sure you're still allow my god. It's almost too much to go on it s, okay, so emission number one which I already made on it in such a greyhound watch. and by the way I didn't go back and listened, but enough people voted that there was consensus that fifty cent was doing exactly has, as you have interpreted at his thing. Thank you for that a nation. It's a big idea, and then secondly, I didn't have corona. I got an antibody test in in him. Have it to my door,
appointment. I'll have you didn't have no one I had no idea what does it mean if one person had it lay leave the rest of us would have so is really our nothing. Anyone was. But u yours, tat came in really fast. Here's another frustrate things I got a prescription, then I went to this quest, plays a grocery store. They took my blood. I added to the grocery store: That's. Where was that yet inside of Yvonne's very where to get your blog, on a voluntary basis as blood at the girl decide now, and then didn't get my results for like four days, maybe five, but then you guys took a task that you got the result in five minutes, tenor and all you were negative for antibodies I was still holding out like well. Maybe I got it when I was in Colorado or taxes and adjust Nina pass through me by the time I got back, even
theory was we are handing land. The air was gonna, be here yeah and they just it's not the case that the case is not the case and I ve never had it. I was pretty excited No, I was not excited, but I was I was same apple. You worry that I didn't think we had a year and I fell valid Nay said sure of course feels nice. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah big time, but I do of course wish I had it yeah me too near into without knowing that students best case scenario. You don't know you had a the latter inexplicably long stretches Diario that through time as everyone's in that is putting their own only guys that your phone party,
and you are you, when you're at your mom's house, had like six days of donor of, do you think that no memory. I know it so weird. I have total memory. I have. I keep up journal deals for you so anytime. You say something I market in there. I don't remember like being with friends and then having to go to the bat like. I would remember that that would be, a matter that word memorable, there's so many kinds of diarrhoea right, there's like food poisoning diarrhoea, were you literally can't be away from it taught. You came by more than like three energy from a toilet at any moment and then there's just like. Oh you in the morning it was Lucy Goosey, and then you went again in the afternoon and it was may be straight water that's diarrhoea, but you could still like carry about your business in that version of it. That's what often, what our experience for a little spell links
manager, balls very manageable civil, if it's only diarrhoea in the morning tie you don't count in reality, sure they're guy anyway, now how you gonna give it up, because everyone talks about the group with their friends they do. I don't know, I don't talk about it with my other friends, if, I'm being honest, Oh no, it's almost all I talk about with my friends and I don't think a lot of people do do you enjoy talking about your cycles, no. No, no you're, you're brown cycles. I dont like hugging about it when public broker an extension of the voting. whoa theme, because it is so vulnerable as the grossest thing we do now that the same like sometimes I really think about it and I'm like it's, not gross. You put food and in it
turns it into this thing in its day. Yes, it's the existing less is so grow wallets repellence so that you know monkey around and other people's ways and pick up diseases. I think its evolution, airing body ever asked that someone else's in a disease carrier like your family members, it's not as grouse still pretty pretty grow. Its operating grass maritime apathy is oh antibodies and He bodies did it affects your position at all. Knowing you know for sure you didn't have a yeah. Why well say you know this speaks to confirmation by us, I'm holding out like a three percent chance. I think the tests were flawed. that's low! Why ninety seven percent accepting of the outcome? This is a bad hypocritical, also because, if I've set down the aisle
it's not like you would say visa. Ninety observers, I no longer know MAX if he's at ninety seven percent, in your only holding out three percent, hope that the tests will be revealed. That's u make decisions a beyond fifty one percent I think that would have elicited and rapid reaction if I said that you're, also a fan of glimmers of hope. If the tests were positive, I need you to really stepped back and think about the scenario. In which all the tests came back. We had it- and I said ok but there's a the very small chance that this is wrong. You would not like it. I know it you. I wonder I wanna, but if you said three percent at least go like oh you're, acknowledging the truth, I'm acknowledging the truth here. I just have a fantasy that somehow still we could have all had it not worry about it,
and you think most likely one of the tasks would have come back. The outside. You were you, as it is a change. My position allow, yes, I mean It does in that I'm like before. I was travelling through the city doing, things simply for you guys, like I had that. I have the gloves on and the mass and it's really just for you guys, it's not for me. I'm not worried about it. But now I'm like oh, I could catch it still. So, There's another variable now that I think oh shit, I could still catch this again. Which is tricky, cause, I'm not afraid to have it, but then the the hell fire. I would you know if you could be figured out tat. It was I who is tainted the group within the hour. I would hate yeah. I guess what it does do, though, is it and I've learned this lesson before I thought I knew who robbed our house one time, and I was so convinced of it
and it turns out wrong that was humiliated with the notion of how wrong I was. Similarly, I am who met not humiliated, but reminded how wrong you can be in feel right. Yeah for share trying your heart is not the glow dark, Oh, are you did a great job? I don't want you to feel bad. I know I know you don't I actually forgot all about. I owe you did. I was out like I wonder. If she's gonna, everybody, and even I totally didn't even think about it, because I knew already knew in my house that we didn't. I knew my heart, that's what I'm saying I click on either way. One of us was bound to be completely and it was me which I'm only I hope everyone doing me to lorries? Santos lorry assign now, in the episode certain about names, a little bag you're talking about as are being analysed, my enemies
and like your name, lorry like every lorry, I know is so fond of it. What are you talking about? I was publicly thinking of like this lorry and my groundlings class. That was really fine. What other lorry do I now I would add, lorries shortfall Lauren Lawrence WAR, Lauren awhile. I think you know lorry Bell lorries from law, which I love because of go Marguerite more again. I just left, finance is Lorelei only have tons strong feelings about lorry, but but I have very firm feelings about, as were I now, the unjust and justice the other name. I have such profound you deal yet. What do you feel about? Well so that the coolest kid in my school was just into sure and he had moved from California to Elementary school, so he's from cowardly any he was the first to have the Lee Pinstripe Denham,
Jeanne would you became really popular like the next year, and I heard of his time. Yes and I clock like all this motherfucker was one year, my cousin, just in LA bow, was like the coolest guy I ever knew was sponsored as being MAX freestyle than he was sponsored as snow border, and he was in a band I love tee was, is the cooler citizen was just in and then remain a few Justin's in there all cool? I guess the many just as I normally just in women, the magician s very cool meters, magic for humans merged for whom, and yet he is a swift, do yeah I use there were all the strong named. It is too easy. Next, it will make a p baby. If it's a boy, we could manage Justin but an interesting thought, because I and be more inclined to name the p baby like Azra, because I think maybe the p baby will be capable of like genius. yes highly intellectual pursuits, but doesn't have the visit
oh shit, any kind of bath dancing around the things that would make you cool Your idea of have caused so specific. It's like cool. It's like you. Do shit really well physically. I think it's cool to be smart, yeah, yeah, yeah, but but but but just again the just insane you are more like they were chill they, the babes loved they were a great at everything mirror like all the guys like dumb, maybe a p babies very likeable yeah, just r r p baby is gelatinous right boards. The asterisk It's it's in liquid form, its not in solid labour, invite it's not gelatinous, ok It's gotta give em gelatinous a thin. It is dishonest. Oh yeah, how we know when it's sick, like we have no experience with be children.
What their symptoms would be like. I guess if it got gelatinous, it's already jaundice looking well, you could never determine if the kidneys were shot. It that's canopy, of its charm that, in spite of looking so unhealthy thrive, yeah yeah, exactly nice therapy baby it I have a little brother sister. I could see a p baby being one of the man. I don't know it's about Ex member one guys in a wheelchair right in here, like makes all the metal fly around like our people, we can be very powerful in a superhero. Early ass could even be the leader of the whole gang
just sit in a toilet ball when they come to it. They come do a toilet. Bolder lives of fancy. Toilet ball, probably like a crystal clear toiler ball, so that they can see him without having the lean over the toilet, bolder communicate with them. When I ran of it. My has have to make sure to make all the toilets, translucent glass, toilet lorry she talks about this psychologist Liz dine whose during all this research and says, if before someone so many on other people, their happier than when they spend money on themselves, so that was interesting? And so I looked up she has a TED talk behind. It was really worth listening to and yet says that, but it also like they did this experiment with kids like it starts, even when you're too, who may bring these two year olds in and there's like a bowl of God,
fish? They give them the goldfish on their very happy, of course, you're cute, and then they have the stuffed monkey and they say like. Oh there's, no None left for the monkey. Can the monkey have one and they all like, say sure, give him one, and then they like map to their response two after they receive the goldfish and an after they give the goldfish away and the kids are happier after they have given it away all Jews, interesting ya, but ok, so this TED talk was she had already put out the research saying that and that TED Talk was basically like. I put out this research and then I was like, but this does not apply to me like I'm. All.
Really give to charity, and I don't really want and is like maybe there's something wrong with my resources shoe a back em and basically the new conclusion is the benefits by when the people feel that they have a sense of connection that those that their helping and they can easily envision the difference that they're making ha ha. So they did this experiment where they asked people to donate to either UNICEF or this organization called spread the net and they pick those big They have the exact same goal: ok, but because UNICEF is like this big well known, charity and people, don't really know exactly where things are going and spread. The gnat give like a very specific motivation, which has for every ten dollars a provide one bed,
that to a child with malaria. Ah, you know the more money in people's gave to spread the Gnat, the happier they fell after, but with UNICEF. The emotional when on investment was flat, so it matters if you feel like you're, connected person. whilst also the kind of Paul Bloom empathy thing and slow moving one kid one now am I can. I can relate to the hour when you get into UNICEF is like a billion people. It just gets diluted, you're feeling of impact yeah, but even a few donate a thousand dollars. You then no like. Oh, I did this. You can like really. Necked yeah you go. I got a hundred kids bed net, GM harassment, asthma,
oh anyway. I thought those interesting is ok, see. You said the article on your times said: five second bursts of exertion help break up, take less rides, yeah four seconds of high intensity exertion repeated periodically throughout the day. My counteract some of the unhealthy metabolic consequences of sitting for hours. Epidemiological studies indicate that most american adults set for at least ten hours a day, a total that is likely to have risen now that many of us are home all day, young corn team. I think I'm sitting like fourteen hours a day really. Oh sure, I think you are to bow Aria Ray I so law, because I'm by computers so much, but I get up to get snacks, yeah, I've changed location again,
bear? No one knew changing locations sprint. Their yeah that'll break up your trackless rights sprint into the kitchen. To get your goldfish tat would make this last four seconds can be spent in your living. I'm gonna circle any New York childcare by think for a second year near in particular Four hours of sitting can contribute to a rise in the bloodstream. A fatty acids known as trackless rides, probably in part because muscles at rest produce less than contracting muscles, do of a substance that breaks up trackless arrives and they do his whole experiment with this. Basically, this stationary bike that they mean vent and they have these athletes common. Do these quick exercises and it helps, but they they're still working on this and the bike is not like available right, so it she sang, probably good to burst around, do some disbursing December's ok, so you talked about you guys both being magnet
whom laud I get my mouth shut. I thought. Maybe you are gonna bring it up, but you did and then I didn't want to brag but I'll brag now that I'm Summa robot movements hello, you're, Summa Georgia, who so yea like probably come loud and you ceiling now now you asked if Sanford's pass fell and it's not admit it's not. It might be right now during corona, but it is not generally yet. I did read this article, our times about these past fails and a lot of students as she. This are particularly concerned because final, raise their great point averages in their final year or two of college to qualify for law, medical or business school. So I do When she was saying- and I was like that is raising, but I do
kind of get it. If it me errors in like their next step. That sucks yeah yeah. I guess it affects a next step, but when I heard that Stamford was past fail- and maybe I just read something that it was being proposed- the argument was the people they got. Stamford are already a students. They ve proven yeah right. So what is the point they made it now? They can just learn I think it's cool, but I agree it posed this issue about when they want to go elsewhere? Yes, and now I mean, I think, if you enter college in its past, fail in and you leave in its past failed, that's fine! That's like the standard, but right now it's like, if you have one year laughed and you have a great point average, just that right now, grades, aren't lifting it at all to try to bring a rib whenever job he can't that stinks. I hope everyone else
In conclusion, in summary, we hope everyone passes data for lorry letter, yeah, ok loved, her wash your guy and again, I was really fascinated with how many of her five things were principles of the Epp that in my meaning, yeah and then someone then went and watched her shit nor, like oh, yes, it's all the same status symbol up or I love you. I love you, I'm here now