Liz Plank is an author, journalist and political correspondent at Vox. Liz sits down with the Armchair Expert to discuss how to include men in the conversation on masculinity, her observation on American race relations and her solution to Twitter negativity. Dax praises Liz for changing Olympic guidelines and Liz delineates the components to a female orgasm. The two debate gender in sports, responsibility of the media and Dax experiences an unexpected mishap while taking a picture with Liz.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Come to a halt. Halloween episode of Armchair expert Halloween, are you all that will be great unity of the bowels pretty on the nose. Will you be wearing the common dress? She always, whereas with the tops of tops, he does You always were a dress. It's like a half its like a position, whereas, like a poker, skirt, ok sure our normal sure, I think I ever in a better The contrast aside, which are like that said, we have a very exciting guess on today. This is, will be the reveal of a mystery. That's right, felicity, the fact check. You know it's too long the story to try to condemn
the short of it, is cuz. I had a little accident with two while I was taking a picture with this guy. All people been wondering over the last month. If each female guess was that person know they weren't. This is that person, Liz Plank Liz Plank, I'm so sorry, but that's the honor. That's bitten, bestowed upon you ass gap, the fire she got an unexpected to most most unexpected by me, yeah Liz aside from national, exciting equality is an award winning journalists and the executive producer of several critically acclaim series at Vocs media, her first book for the love of men, a new Jim for mindful masculinity is outright now. She is a very interesting take on this big big topic that we all keep finding ourselves in the middle of a really really enjoy talking, you're and really really work. farting in front of her. Please enjoy Miss Liz Plank
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Actors from following your every move: thanks to Firefox Firefox Box, ten billion trackers for users, everyday automatically, no need to dig in privacy. Settings, learn more and get Firefox at Firefox DOT, com, privacy. These lists plank, which has started fact great name. You should have been an actor, isn't it isn't it a saleable? Now we just talk to lose banks yesterday in virtually the same name. So you here you remember it it's it's good for you. You know that was so. I'm french, canadian, and so no one calls me last back home and so sometimes as a joke, my family will go hey,
listen and my professional life and show here and now, as my showbiz live. But I love you too. I think it's it's it's easy to say. Why do they call you Elizabeth? They call me LISA, it's very strange and eighty, which is that the short name France has always eighty Ali, similarly Kristen group Annie, which is her middle and you think like when we're back in Michigan people almost frustrated units like I did this, that's that is not created as Annie as unrighted Amazon com, but I do wonder, Bein, Canadian and then Emmi left and work here. Is there a little bit of shaming that happens? Oh so much, I thought we were like you're you're gonna be here and are in the leg. It no here is key your home is, is it like breaks their hearts, but then I also get a lot of question marks like. Why are you here right now right, especially in this current situation, when there is much better alternatives Canada, oh sure, sure, politically political sure in error, but we have
no problems. What province did you grow up in Montreal Montreal, I'm embarrassed to admit this again grew up across the ambassador bridge. from Windsor Ontario out the window in London on the way to Toronto. Bend BC, never Benda Montreal and I hold its like the sexy- is sexy. Europe think you're in Paris. Yes, it sent a lot of actors to treatment the who have work there. They ve been handled monocles boy, friend, not my boyfriend, but he's my boy I'll get. You want my dream boy: fancier, imaginary boyfriend. There was this famous interview where there's this french canadian interviewer, that's very like sexy
an and sweet, and she sat in his lap over an entire interview. I've seen my Myra and now landed with her enemies. So I watched in this is very topic for what we will discuss today. I watch that Mouselike. Oh fuck, you know Meda journalist in Toronto, one time when I was young and we flirted so outrageously in the interview and then I'm not excusing, condoning or any I've know that I have no judgment event that situation at all. I'd only just went to myself and gone like you just completely forget that you're being or did your talking to someone if they're giving you lots of rhythm and you want to give it back. You know connecting devil either. All while edited Org is the highlight it looks fuckin crazy, as anyone ever taught. You got a flirt like do men talk about As for other men, like my words that doesn't work because we like ghosts right, each others
strike women. I ought to be lying to you. There should be credit. Is at the heart of like this success. It is about to back up our entire group tat. and I wonder if men have a conversation when it does happen, it feels like it's in these. You know: pickup artist communities were saying, like treatment. Women like trash and yeah yeah yeah, but it are there like real ones like healthy minds and productive once yes, so again, I hesitate to speak for men. I have no clue. I know that friends, all like a girl and then they'll say I'm. She wrote this. What should I write so I'm in both also like sexual stuff our best run? I went out on, but he was like how, you making your wife orgasm in, like we only got to get. You got to get this fiber in. I recommend this position and he's like I'm forty, eight. No one fucking told me this. What what and I'm like yeah my dad was, you would
well I'm a pervert properly, but he would talk endlessly with me about girls and having Saxon. It was just something I certainly got a ton info from him. I also lucky enough to have like an older lover. One I was fifteen and she was like listen. This is how you go down on a girl. God? No, while the funding of a thing will now, someone tells you- and you know it's the golden trio right through studies, women to orgasm. It's three thanks. It's clearer oh stimulation oral hard kissing like hard core. sang in now, and when I see an and it's not just that men don't know, that's but also lot of women are not what the near your hair lies. The price albumin. This is something that we will keep circling back to giving the book you've written and the different studies you've had, which is I've been with lots too many women cliche. That was one of the definitions of being a man, and I fucking did it there's no goddamn,
consistency. I know gals that you can just barely graze that clitoris occasionally I know people that love anal. I know people that Hayden. I know you know, there's people that can't can't come true penetrating some- that only kept there. There's no consistency and I do think therein lie as this huge problem with their even being two groups- male female, it's kind of preposterous. I certainly share more in common with my wife at night lying in bed than she shares in common with most women or I share in common with most man. So that's my little bit a hesitating to us breaking into these groups. Is there just there not really representative of any individual generally gas there not real. I know this through researching and really investigating this idea of gender right, because we know the gender is the social. Constructing a sex is supposed to be biological, but even sacks scientists are saying this and I am delighted in the book that their recognising they tactfully a spectrum too, and that these three,
are not as fixed and as binary as we sort of admit them and were seen new generations in really young generations. I've interviewed some of them for the book. I talked to David Hog and add the play the privilege of talking to him about all kinds of stuff, about masculinity, about the intersection of masculinity and gun violence, which I share in the book. This amazing quote about me not hearing his sister crying after the shooting cuz she lost for friends that day and not being able to be in the house and realized that, because he never felt empathy, he didn't know how to feel but then he also as he's leaving with his friends. I hear them for the laugh and be like what's gender anyways sort of laughing, even kind of at me like this thirty two year old, Dinas
or even inquiring on this idea of gender or bathing in the belongs in the concept a globally Louis Backtrack, Romania. Yet thousand when I graduated college, there was ex wife, forty five and forty six you either have to excess or ex wife rang out. How is that variable? So, basically, you can look at chromosomes, Inga, look at genetics or you can look at our hormones, though, depending on what you are looking at, you can come up with a different definition of what sex as right and so yeah just looking but the chromosomes. Obviously there some variations, even within those two. But then, if you look at Castra, Simeon yeah right, this amazing olympic athlete and South Africa Drive will for her was that it was a hormone difference reigns there. She produced more testosterone, then is cordon quote at another definition. of how much a woman should be providing testosterone. But obviously she someone identifies as a woman, but these cattle
These are a little bit difficult. They are and that that all that alembic stuff, you can be swayed by both sides of it sure, but back to the other, the ex. What so? Yes, again in in biology of twenty years ago, when I was still reading about it to you, you have your dna and you would see your Gina typically male or female, but you can be fini typically male or female. So, yes, you could have Klein filters right or you could have Xxix Wire x Y acts. You can certainly give those examples they exist, but they are also very anomalous. Also, yes, your hormones. I take a foot to keep my hair. I keep a testosterone inhibitor. Had my wife had a boy in her when her body started sending testosterone down to tell the ovaries turnin testicles had she touched my fuckin is she could have made the baby phenotype ugly female, even know. Jake Gina typically would have still been map, I'm probably old in this,
on the wrong side of history, but the jeans part of it to me isn't even a debate worth having. I feel like that is perhaps an attempt to go you're. Not believing me that I'm a woman your defence Why I'm not as this piece of data and so now I have to undermine that data to promote why you don't have to go undermine that man and you have to convince the person. It is not related to that. Dad I'm a little suspicious of trying to attack or redefine the data, But- Why does it matter how someone else that identifies Doesn't it doesn't it all? I'm say let's say you're a Trans person, and you say I am a female and then there's some other person going will know. You're a man ran and then she says no, I'm a woman, and then he says no, your genes, In the end, a test you are x Y now that that the Trans female is in a position to try
what D bungalow what he just said to win the argument that that's not even and that's it doesn't deserve debunking- is it's not relevant, drank dispersant, definitely feels and is female and that's enough. I just I don't know why we have to go. Try to reconfigure how we interpret the Genetics pieology. There are people in my position saying that I mean Ben Shapiro, who say: trans people don't exist, as you have a penis, you die the penis and I'm barely paraphrasing rang Georgia, which I totally disagree. a right of yours, and it's almost in so much of this we end up, and by we I mean the progressives or people who are pro human rights, an probe self expression. We end up playing into the framing that they cause us to work, and so here we are arguing about chromosomes, and you know that this via the biology, none of us to five any of this sort of knowledge, were not scientists when actually what we
really want is a society where everyone can be free to be who they want to be anywhere. These social constructs right we are more important matters. Is that no matter what you have between your legs, you should be conditioned to believe that you don't have a full expression of of of your emotions or that you don't have the same need for intimacy and or that, if you are, you don't have that between your legs, that you are inherently and an old passive, and these need to be fragile and all of these stereotypes, like we ve made up that that is made up. That is gender performance since doing gender. We owe you gender or every day, and this more exact. I did all right now. My aren't you know and in its great that we're examined the reason why I wrote the book is that I got so much freedom and and pleasure out of a conversation around feminism and around me basically discovering who I really was in leaving
aside, the things that I had taken on because of society because of the movies I'd watch because of the things that I've been told by my friends- and I just want that same freedom for man is actually a conversation about freedom and again when we get lost in this world. How does this austrian? Actually? Will this studied right? We were talking about this. You can use any cider prove anything, but what I wanted to do book is just show a different perspective, because if you read in the newspaper the region in the meat, if you look at odds, he being film testosterone and masculinity is always present. In a very monolithic way? Osha and there's these assumptions out there that manages inherently more violent manner, is inherently more stupid business. I get this said to me even on this book Teresa by man. Charges. Women single men are just dumber, don't think so. Leave that half of humanity of this communication is dumb plague liberty of yeah. What's in between her legs yeah, let's get the olympic thing for one. Second, yes, it is
because here on one hand, do you have the right of that female athlete that people are coming to the rescue of understandably so as really wants to bring into that conversation- is but we divide male and female for a reason, because if you look at all results in general. Men are doing twenty percent faster or bigger or strong, whatever that is seems to be the gap in physical events at the Olympic suspends. Ok, by the way I mean again, this is data to prevent at that yes, you know, testosterone makes your muscle lived. There was again we're getting behind this vile on your conversation, bides. If you look at high levels of indifference, examples of these alter marathons. Women actually tend to do as well or better than men, though, that there is a difference, but guess just you turn on track and field.
The men are run in whatever their in three to infringe forward. Is there another jumping a couple feet longer than all? That's, not only anyone wants to get bogged down in that yeah. So, yes, you want to protect this one female Jones and now have testosterone on par with any mail. That's competing and we've also isolated that being the hormone. That's creating these results in the mint, so you're protecting her witch valiant and honorable but you're? Also throwing away now every single woman who's competing, so you've devalue their implicit right to compete on a level playing field? It just becomes a very Utilitarian content you doing the right thing: cuz it's the right thing for her, but is it at the expense of all these other people and has the most rights to be at the Olympics I'll add into it? No one is a fucking right to be in the Olympics, guess what I can't
The Olympics there's not a chance in Hell. I don't have whatever it takes you, whether it's mental or physical or whatever people don't born with a right to compete in the Olympics of Sharon Men trouble yeah yeah, not Romania, I so this is what I say. Because again, I think that this is first of all, like a debate, that's worth having and it's complicated these these things are not easy and that's why it is important to have these conversations and have space to talk about these conversations. Here's what I say. I think that if care stir. Was a white blind traditionally attractive right, thin woman? That was an athlete and she had the same levels of testosterone. All of the data point will be the same. I wonder
We would be questioning whether she's, a woman or not or though exactly. I also wonder if he Limpet Committee would look at her, and even I dont, even if it would be good, might think. They're test was what exactly what I think we have a view of feminine any. We have a view of womanhood and and and that's rationalize, that's gendered, obviously an end. So again that adds a layer to this, an alleged that I think is worth discussing tune in women's we're thinking? There's somebody layers there. He asked only him all any more more complicated yeah. Why just? I think I guess what I'm pushing for his like we'll have to make it that is the nature of life with the fight and quite often you're choosing between two bad decisions: either either these women have to be with someone that has three times the testosterone level that they have or we're going to tell this woman. She can't limits, because she just naturally has a height us, neither our air, both grey matter. I think police Deaf gets oversimplified. It's like look, there is clearly her renders systemic racial by
this among police. There's no question. Also, please work as a fucking dirty business, you're walking into strangers houses where someone is called screaming on the other line going come help you don't know what you're going into in the notion that the any humans going to walk into a situation that chaotic and then performed? clean. All levels is the link delusional: we have to admit that hate. Unless you want to go clean up the fucking dirty would we have to have margin of error that we're all gonna sit away, so Renee Myers that she's actually ahead of diversity at now flags, but she's done a lot of work on unconscious bias and she says if you have a brain, you have bias layer and in this conversation around the violence police officers and the killing of unarmed, mostly by people. Of course. Is we individualise these cases right? And it's really easy to go after that man who shot Michael Browns, really
easy to gotter. Even George Zimmermann right and saying this man was raised as this man was motivated by all all of this in an internal eyes, racism in externalize racism, but we also have to acknowledge that there is a system that were all born into and out of, and that's also comes out to the conversation around masculinity, that in the meeting movement in this amazing movement, Reno powered by trying to work, and so many women who have been so brave and and ages and men also have come forward as victims. We're like ok, Harvey wines, things in jail. always going to jail. These people were in exile them to another planet, in deciding Russia would have all with open eyes. I think, judging by my comments, yeah alot of russian Botz were super power plants, and I want to say one more thing. Last thing on a limping saga no one's evaluating the amount of testosterone among each person. Everyone has a different amount of tat. We have different amount of testosterone, any varies across your life. By the way you had less, when you had kids, you dead right, but there's a
amateur that they have decided is again. They have to enforce men taking testosterone and anabolic steroids. So they have to state a level that that you think they think is the high end. What could be possible? So even the male athletes are getting tested for testosterone, yeah sure they're, not doping. What are they tested for extra like? Are they too everyone says you're levels coming and yes, just the US that they were testing. Then maybe the new variance can be that mean him? Be a level of tests can be broken down into those sections, as opposed to lay out a young men sure when everything so thanks, a man could have the same answer such matters awaiting the females, and you know that seems like a compelling. solutions to figure out how we're going Rarely have you pull them? Yes, grandma, fair. Yes, yes, but the point you are making, which I thought was so well. It was,
traded in the OJ documentary it was Rodney. King is the evidence of systemic racism. Wasn't the four cops hitting him with the batons that was so obviously egregiously racism, but it was the twelve people that lied in the report. I got back to the station that tells you that they knew what part of the system they were involved in and how you should Matt is the proof of the the systemic racism, but yes, inherited by us in this. You know to look well. Yes, yes, ok, so he's good friend, I love him he's been on here and argue with me a bunch. I went on his and argued with him. We have mostly the same. Different enough that we can argue and one of the as I was saying, we have constructed rules to this game where the stakes are so high that you're never going to get people to
whatever level of racism, they have everybody's on the fucking spectrum, I'm so I'll. Do it myself with three on it? But if the only options are by Mary racist you're, like a white nationalist or fucking not racist at all. If those are the two options, what I'm going to defend this shit, that I'm not a nazi and so there's no latitude or room for anyone to really own what level of races they are or what level of inherent bias they have, because the stakes are such that you'll be eradicated from Netflix. If that label, befallen. Do you in some convincing? Yet, though those are very dramatic stakes, or at least appear to me to be very dramatic and it makes us think there were sounding the price bloom by its hacking, individuals and right cancelling people and going after them and further isolating them. I did this amazing spiritual, Rachel Justice Workshop with Rachel Rigour
to which I recommend to everyone and she she starts by seeing, if your way, your racist and I can feel I've been difficult for a lot of people to hear if your man, your success right and that's because you're about person, it's because you have been brought up in a society that is raises, you ve, been brought up in a site that is access and even to a certain extent to which I think is again comes back to what I'm trying to with the book, which is showing that patriarchy told you to hurt women and two hey women. It also kind of tells you to hurt yourself and to hate yourself to show the same systems that hurt a women in our society. actually are hurting man. The same systems that hurt black and brown people in this country are also hurting. Why people we all lose out when we are living in these societies and when we don't have the space to talk, answer your point. I think that we're all being watched and scrutinized and war for proving that were not racist by calling someone
three says to word word only like knowing ass. Just to me as total, the virtual impacts ray- and I doubt if I as a progressive but I'm almost more noise by progressed is right now, then, by conservatives, actually illustrate on Bill Marvel places as we are yet which money is always talking about, and I love which is you're off in a position: shamanic is in a position to have to comfort. So why Parada might be puffy links. I may I would have to talk about a double whammy. It's like are so few forty You know excluded me and then now you've come around, and now I got to comfort you in absolve you of your sin. I don't want to deal with any of that. All should just pay me and give me shut. The fuk up, appreciate. An effort reaching out of. I know that I
Did you like? I appreciate that, because that means there thinking about it, and I prefer someone to be thinking about it and I think it is in our opinion, will end again in August of his so complicated that it does not make for good tweets. It doesn't mean now soundbites, but one of the things I am always hoping to delineate the difference between there is abject racism. There are white national, Sir people, who I think beer Supreme Ethnicity and everyone else is is less than they definitely exist and then there's, a situation of which I'm sure you're aware of a. Photojournalist admitting that early in his career. He took a picture of like a dying black woman on the street, went to the editor and the editor said: stop taking pictures of dead black people, because at best you're going to be on the fifth page of the newspaper, it'll never be on the front right in the point of this thing we read was that that's systemic racism
hold on. Let's take the whole world into consideration. The New York Times sells newspapers in New York City and seventy percent of the city is white to sell percent of their consumers. Are white people have limits of empathy. You identify more if your white with someone suffering that's white, and that is just biological evolutionary black people are going to be more empathetic to other black people and Latinos will be more empathetic looking to sell give seventy percent of your buying audience is going to empathize more with their color. On the the front of the newspaper and they're in the selling newspapers. Is that racism or is that the failing of empathy? It's bad? It shouldn't be that way. Black people deserve to be on the front page of the New York Times, but let's be careful about what were explaining it with, because if it's not right. Explanation we're going to put a lot of time and energy into fixing something that's the wrong route of the cause,
were beginning to know more about empathy. There's some great studies by problem of ever now. Publicly I hear you give gives these examples of like. If you show a picture of a two starving, kids on a poster, people will donate if you now three, they only last right now if he gets to a hundred, because that you no longer can relate to that situation. and it's yours are overwhelmed by the situation. So just your empathy breaks down and that's just a little human limit and we should try. In the end, we should have tools to transcend it and we should figure out how to increase, spend our empathy, but we we have no were fighting that this is an interesting. So I agree we wait as a person who works in the media right, blaming the media is always so easy thing: the media's just covering his tweets and the media right there blaming me effort Tom, and like ok, yes, where exacts, are making decisions based on what you're gonna watch And so the problem is all of these people are watching. You know this really bad television, and so, if we consumed more about
international affairs by if we consume more serious about it. If I bid will read more stories about black people than those would be the stories that are on the front page, so it's yeah, the media is a reflection of us right or government is a reflection of us Other thing I'll say, though, is so there's all these studies about children too, and the toys that they choose so there's this tragic, a study that was done on very young girls taking bar like dolls, basically, and so that the white girls were more likely to pick the white dog and to think that the white all when she was hurt, they were able to have more empathy for them when they were hurt. the black girls were also more likely to pick the white doll and to have more empathy or hurt when she is hurt- and I think maybe we can look it up, but there's something about know how they measured the empathy, but they were able to measure it, and it wasn't just white girls who have sympathy for white dolls. It was the black girls too, and so yes, there is an
the biological, biological, evolutionary explanation for why all have more empathy for a white woman who's asking for money, then a white woman, who's asking for money, I hate to or may be or organic Zactly or whatever improve our group outlined yourselves absolutely. But I also think that that empathy comes from the images that we say Ray Hotel end and from the friends that you have in America, one of the things that I was struck by to be completely honest is how segregated our friend groups are here and not to say that everything's provision in Canada, but why people hang out with my people and people color with people of color and that segregation, I actually think we could solve, and this is in my little. Maybe I'm too hopeful am simplifying everything, but I think that sexism can be so men being friends with women and believing in that and that's happening more with young men who were just have more friendships with women than they used to so they're, not just interacting with women that they want to sleep with their interacting with people. As you know,
born as human beings, but also by those women Mendel. Honestly. What I now crazy I've never met. Maybe they sometimes even further and we want you to control her via shaming yeah yeah? I do. I heard that on your put themselves, I love that study. That said, you do everything, and so the easiest way to break down that bias and that an unconscious bias sure you could take a workshop and do the whole thing and we'd all these books, and you should do all those things you must not just have friends who are not like you re, who have a different experience and in your going through the world with them, you have to read a book about what it's like to be a black woman. America, if you are surrounding yourself by blue black women, rice and living through their experience with them. Work were hard wired for empathy, so were actually going against our nature when we're segregating each other in these new, no tribes based on arbitrary
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Oh, don't want to talk about and don't want. You acknowledge, and what I find happens is that buildings to be half of us who don't wanna, talk about it, don't knowledge it states. past. We want to focus on good things now and then the other half that's constantly forced to talk about it because they're trying to convince the other half that this is happening and then they're confirming the other side's you that that's all you were talk about you just want to divide us and it creates this the self serving you'll buy as right? It confirms these two divisions. Really I mean that's my perspective, as it just an observer area wonderingly, you think what I do you remember the learning and colleagues that, like one of the biggest steps forward in race, relations in this country was Vietnam, because it was the first time that the soldiers were not segregated in just by living with one another recognise, Is he the? U Manatee in one another and recognising?
were fundamentally all her oh carrier, on the same fears and in our threatened by things, you know that that was one of the biggest leaps for resist is being forced to live with one another. I mean, I think, a good deal with socio economic reality hang out with those people that make the same amount of money on it happens them or even others. Millions strata within white people, there's no industry within black people and its seems you just generally be socio economic before you even have a choice when you're a kid you're in a school system amongst kids who have to make the same amount of money as used you're going to be around those that, like you, don't even your born and you don't that you're making the decisions are just coming at you. So when you get to a certain age, it's like that's what you've seen your whole life, but that's been my floss before where to it cuz there's a study about like you can retain forty or fifty
real relationships that one and I was like if each of those relationships is a different type of human and you can connect when there's racism or sexism. Whatever it is you're like. Oh that's, that's like Mary Who is Mary? I'd, be so sad about that like. If you have a real person to connect your general, Oh, don't I hey yes, but if it is not forced right Philly, it's like, oh by virtue of just being yes, in one of my little pet peeves is when I go back to Detroit, I'm always immediately like aware of the fact that, Many of my friends I grew up with are in Detroit with multiple black friends, multiple latino friends. They all only talk and racial slurs, everyone in the group- and then I come back here- and I have rich white, liberal friends who are the word police and I'm like
great you not even fucking friends with anyone like you, you know you have these ideals, but my free does using the language you think, makes him a racist. It lives with all black people like lives with Ladino or just in there all fucking each other in so that I don't know why that bothers me, but it's like there's a lot of every tower. Oh, I deal I believe that our life, they they have not learned the rights that judgment of everyone else's spot on the spectrum of racism right and why progressives at the worst right by progressive think that in our trump now that there is some supporters that evaluated themselves of all of the internalize racism that they do right or that they take part in, and it's like world now that there's these NEO nazis. No, we gotta fight these people. We're gonna go these protests, but what are you doing everyday life right. Do you have reticence in IRAN? Are not why rich people and actually examining your own proclivities for that in your own internalization of that is where the started so much easier to just blame the ball
joy, Brian, our on tv show for six years together and from day onto the last day of the six years, I'd say eighty four of our conversations or about race. We loved it. It's so fascinating. She says Carnea, we say car payment. She vaseline on her face in the winter we didn't you know it is endlessly amusing and interesting the same way as if I had a friend that grown up in New York City- and I grew up in the country like that, stuff's fun, and yet some people think Somehow is a signal of racism to even be acknowledging you're aware of it, and I just think we're just been a little dishonest man and you get it Can I talk now about being indian and white? We love it when we never tire of it yet, but you're talking more about like with joy culture, differences like find that to be interesting about someone who grew up
Eeyore in the south, yeah yeah yeah, yeah yeah, bringing the equal level of fascinating, but if you're only interested cuz, it's like. but you is different than me and they clearly there's going to be differences, because even though maybe we grew up in the same city You know what I mean my yes, but but I think people have a fear that just that inquiry is in itself, racism- and I actually think it's curiosity and I think the curiosity leads to free Friendship leads to like empathy, L, you're saying like she puts ass, a lean on her face and you put cream, but it's like everyone's pudding should on their fakes. At the end of the day, everyone needs a more surprised, bays and well wins getting card tickets. Does we were almost as indifferent as you get ashy? I dont think brain were even know the fucking term ash yeah never had a white from going. Are you fucking elbows or get now? She had never heard long as you're, not like after you hear
like which happened that's now and investment. I think it can get. I mean I'm not per some cause. I don't. I don't know that feels like, but I can assume it alone of all. Get annoyed got kind of a nice, I'm hungarian Dunbar. Don't you suspiciously tall? I want to test your testosterone before Atley Hayley. So let's talk about you a little bit boy. We had fun weirdest, spinning very talked about the fact that you grew up in Quebec and you went to Mcgill University in Montreal gearbox. Where are you, or a synchronized swimmer. I mean Monica I've never met one. I don't. I don't think I have either I had very I mean I'd whatever chlorine begin. Florin lay ever you know five days a week is which is green here,
I mean just bad in the new cofounded, their women's weak, yeah, that's really cool. Just in and of itself it was mom strong, feminist liberal in all these things yeah, so I grew up in a very progressive household. The out with two parents who basically were in full blown communists are literally sometimes people call at home, and they believe that they ask. The part like it was like you couldn't be. A socialist and so they were extremely politically engaged and and my mom is a survivor inside learned about a very horrible. Salivary young age, about women, and so I just had that awareness from a very young age and gender was always something that I was just fascinated by
try going with rights Lena. That's how I make my and then I did a masters that Elsie too in gender theory the one she went to monitor. These are unified situations to MC ills, very impressive, I was out believe you. It is the reason why my Alice is because there was the cheapest option, because it's only a one year masters and so by David was a horrible yeah. So I was a researcher and I was doing my masters and I was really isolated and as a rule, a hard year for me and I'm very lonely, and I didn't cope with that in the right way. I didn't speak out. I withdrew a lot and I was just always at the library now he's trying to yeah just work. as a way to you, know, be more compassionate, which did not work, it was twenty hovel impacts and there was no be female boxing. for the very first time as a discipline which I found really exciting, because I am an athlete I love to do sports, and so I was actually boxing at the time with this coach. That was. I wish I d
recent anything. He said not got issues worse. That access is very hard to understand for me, anyways, and so I got really upset when I saw that they were gonna force female boxers where skirts in the ring, because it would make them elegant- was their explanation. I want the women and the logic of each other, yet only one- and I would have been more than they had clutches to suddenly had only one and with those areas with their flesh out the right is an enemy and then in the in the brakes between rounds, I would insist that they would touch up there make there we go about that. Those which will be our priority has a people want given what they want, but you took action Monica she changed the olympic I mean I you change your mind, that's great. We love the Olympics are excited, and so I created this petition demanding that they would revoke this decision and I share.
Until now. My thirty three twitter followers Weber was following me and a basely went viral, and then I was doing interviews with the BBC from my little shitty five pound phone. That was Reno all fucked up, and I wrote this article that change orgasme to write and then suddenly they published in the Huffington Post, and that was like meeting able to publish an article in the ring post it was something I can even imagine. I would do what how my entire life. I was twenty five now, so it was unique and amazing, and then they revoke their decision and female box has got to air whatever the fuck they want area and in that was my first point of entry into my miserable edition of the they fight nude, In the great times men began only men down greater rigour. We think happened. I've law made this argument. I think all the ugly should be met Can I watch the Olympics with such detail?
our eyes are peeled. We often will be watching together and I'll get a little video sent to my phone open it up in Albia, like a male sprinter, where his penis just got loose in the middle of the hundred yard dash game. tell your mother, I love that I will be the same shots for volleyball. You know how the volley about they'll be like they'll go into their budgets for the women and like do the man on the pan down. I want that for the man to the island enjoy that so much more. I remember when I was doing second swimming might show. I was a teenager when I started my shoulder started, really expanding and I like it, I, like I look like a man like you, and I had a lot of shame around that undoubtedly already tall tomorrow to exactly Marty like telling all these little boy, and so then I have to fix broad shoulders. Ok, so you
the Olympic forever, when you that. That's it that's true. I would Imagine it can be a very encouraging thing if at twenty five you've started something and then there is an actual result that I would imagine just being very encouraging to keep going legacy early experience to have where you could actually feel like. Oh goodness, I actually have some sway over some stuff is one person, but is also not even just as one person right with this social media, which was in a really knew at the time. I'm not that new about how important it was in terms of dictating news. people's decisions right where people had to answer based on what they were tweeting or based on what was sort of on Facebook and the new star
really being directed by what was going on on social me. Have something was was hot on Twitter than it was cover. They had the cupboard exactly what we feel is on that in general. I think that we ve gonna, let all probably to fire on that boy. I think the sales wagging madonna- yes, really a million people that are active on the fucking play for minutes, very one in the news is allowing with thrice senses on. There is absolutely- and I think I think, only to be a difference. I enjoyed twitter. And I would love it if everyone's like we're done, turning our eye yeah, I just I just the AIDS deserve debt. You know what they should do is just after six p m the focus at that time of their family or friends, and we don't like tweet in bad when were frustrated about whatever ray you or weak, actively tried to figure out how to get people to.
You heard without yelling and yeah. I see the underbelly of it as something that's sad which is at so many of us feel disconnected or we feel like. We don't have a voice or not invited in the conversation in this. Is this outcome Morton that part sad? But you know I feel if those people into their fuckin can we see it or or they were more than a church in their town. I just and is better ways, yard and recognise or further isolating ourselves, because we think reconnecting ye. I went I it's missing alone. Ok, so you got out of the London School of Economics and changed the alembic however, for working time to turn a minute investment in the interim and is playing a limping alter but ultimately landed at vote? Yes, ok, how did you come to be box? So I basically was poached to cover the twin sixteen election and build a video series around the campaign because it was just ramping up. It was very early twenty. Sixteen when we
This was going to be a pretty historic election and I join as one of the first serve members of that video team. That was doing incredible work already, doing explain or videos, but I yeah. I wanted to really discuss what I'm an expert in terms of gender, but also I love humor. I love a schedule. Is I like disarming people with humor Alec, making people uncomfortable? I was already doing the series called flip described at MIKE, where I was before box out. It was like punked but for activism angle, so I've prank my improv class, my all White Improv Class, with Arturo cast Who now has this amazing show on comedy central alter latino at the time he was on broad city, and we asked these white actors to act wider because he was always held. Can you do it? just like a little bit. Morley Tina add a little like, and so the cold words like urban jointly resolve. They would own even get em, don't even use that they just go full on Bert raises that we were between blocker
exactly you're like ok. If your way, you can be a variety of characters and and and people right, but if your black, if you're lucky, know if you're a black woman right, you're the sassy best friend and we're seeing them king well and temperate by behind you, but I'm only so yes- and I can say in person and a girly know. I look like white trash. I am white trash, many of the roles have been hired to play. I have to lean into being white trash, I'm Carl Loomis in Baby Mama, and I am my neighbor's and Danny I started saying I don't know they're ever going to. Let me be in a movie where I have sleeves on my shirt. So in all that again, those who we can now make yeah it's not equivalent. It's not nearly as bad. But it's it's all like. That's why I'm I'm so it was. Everyone recognized like the whole system is fucking everyone. It's eat, we're trying to break into what groups getting
MLS, but it's like most of us are suffering from a system that needs some pretty radical change in it, and so yeah I mostly was hired to play lower So we cannot make way, rather people rang, which wasn't representative of me having gone to college, but there is more than just he'll Billy role for white people is the point. There is more than that. There is the billions of other kinds of white roles for anyone of colored. There's a black person role theirs Le Tina Wrong. There's an indian doktor raw, like you know you can own convenience store to exactly like us actually address but is that you're both right one of the people? I interview in the book, as does in white and he's a seven generation appellation, and he taught me about the officer types about rednecks right. The term redneck is actually from the largest workers uprising in american history, which was white men in coal mining,
companies who are being exploited and there were fighting to have better health conditions in the minds and they got gun down literally by called gun thugs or a hired by the coal mining companies to squash that uprising, and so in order to find themselves and know who was part of the protest and who was like a gunshot They wore these red since all about your sister actually already my guy occasion, LISA Races, so yeah we can. I think we can be critical of all I think a lot of people in the south, a lot of people who are in West Virginia. So much of my conversation with Dustin
man was fascinating. One of the things that he talked about was everyone thinks that we voted for. Tromp right was reaching as soon as you know, Trump country, sure most people in both for Tom most people do boat law right, people are in paying people feel abandoned by everyone and the Democrats. They also feel abandoned by They feel abandoned by everyone most of West Virginia. and doesn't belong to the people West Virginia. It is belongs to coal mining companies, it's all owned by corporate entities and Dustin who's all of them. family, had been call minors and all them died from black long from cancer from working in the mines and as No, the trumpet immigration or supposed to be the champions of these workers are actually making the regulations less tight. When it comes to black long funds, the whole mining companies actually dont have to put as much money funds for men were literally dying at now younger ages, then,
ever before. It was just a problem about those going to work if using black ones of thing of the past is not any younger men in their twins. In thirty seconds to be older men, and now it's does a real epidemic and what went on things that he told me that his father said if bead literally died because of contaminated water during the west. Water crisis so because of the coal mining companies again to boil snow for his dying father of cancer. and one of the things that his dad said was never going to call my name. Don't do it and so he's actually working in the house. Find other. You know energy jobs in was Regina in environmental reconstruction, and one thing that happens when he goes and speaks at these convent. Cinder block coal miners were in the audience. Often he is heckled by those men. And the thing that they say, which has happened more than once is when he goes on stage. They say: where's your dress,
hush shared this like you're, not a man. Your nigh on your man would never commands often gets his black law that shut the fuck up Sakhalin yeah exactly right. So your book for the love of man, vision for mindful masculinity. What urged you to to tackle vat in the mists of clearly there's tons of steel, women's issues that need fighting for. Did you go like extended all ran a man. What were made. You do that so at first the book was actually called how to be a man a woman's guide, and it was very different town right. Has four years ago. So it's before the Trump election, all that stuff in the world was very different and I was just since I was in these feminist rooms, and these scientists basis women's media, and we were all in agreement more. People and women were deserving of safety and protection, and we were all like ok and then you know we think, like the one guy in the back and we ought to be like cool like go. Tell the guy
and then we'd all go break and then I just was like that doesn't seem like a good plan that doesn't seem like the right way that we're gonna fix these problems. So I went on this. sort of journey really to examine masculinity and through interviewing, so many different man through doing a lot of data and it's sort of investigation through data and research. I started realizing that masculinity was always presented as a problem and I was really interested in how mass It can be presented as the solution and as I talked to man, I realised that they didn't want to talk about masculinity right that there was this male code. That was. really discouraging any conversation or any self examination or self analysis or unmask landing even to self evaluate, is gay. Absolutely I saw this onto. It literally the guy who took a snapchat of a beautiful sunset, and it says I'm straight, but this is really cool
You can try it out, you doing so many lives. So many guys will give me a compliment on twitter and then they'll hashtag, no homo. You know. Unless it's I look Why were you guys in Rivergate? I be offended by that. I feel bad for that guy to be vulnerable and give someone a compliment and open yourself up put a safety net under you that I'm not gate like that. Just a sad state of affairs and if it's in that won t, imagine what it's like in the rest of his life, the ground, I don't want it looks like an and that's where again, through talking many men. I realize allow you're hurting me because you ve been, art by the same structure and that same system- that's hurting me and-
not acknowledging that pain is actually going to worsen. That pain is going to make you go further into that system and I started seeing what I think is is literally a man crisis in our society at every level and you shall we see it when we open our tvs and we see as a mass shooting every single day in a more out of those, we were women who are not one right, there's out there boy I'll do their black guy female right by the fire. And then you look at gun violence and you realize actually two thirds of Gun DAS in America or death by suicide and most of those people are white man. Men are buying guns to protect their families or protect their wives. That's what they're saying protect themselves from black people and brown people, but their most of them are using it against them Elsie, and that is again that that's a health epidemic women actually trying commit suicide more often than men, but men are
our more effect or better excellently, you're better, because men tend to use more violent means that they will now be allowed something the shame of having had a failed. Suicide attempt for a man is different than it is for a woman I'm so many women that have been honest about a suicide attempt and there's this whole path to recovery. For them and I don't know any men who have admitted to trying to kill us outside of ay and have a lot of friends within a that'll talk about like suicidal ideations like there's all these steps before you commit suicide, and even if someone hasn't got to that point, they've got to the point where they're starting to evaluate it. You know, but you just don't hear guys go like oh yeah. I tried to kill myself for years ago, doesn't really happen. Cuz, it's such a weakness. In a failing of an impotent. you didn't succeed and it's also a weakness that even did it in the first place and three others no room for that where there is no room for weakness,
Male shame is something that I just in the book and that I just realized. We weren't, I mean, there's a no one addressing it. I have had so many men write to me saying that chapter on male shame gave me a language to speak about something that I felt my entire life that no therapists or no person could ever find out. What was ever able to do for me and Brittany Brown talks about the difference between shame with women, women. We all have which we have a culture. That acknowledges our shame re. Our shame of not being perfect is always the perfect body under the perfect thighs and of the perfect mom and at the pretty perfect friend, and we we ve, had a language and in order to people to talk about that, an even amongst women right, we obviously trying be perfect, uninstall ram and whatever, and but we also are able to acknowledge that and for men is that your weak you'll have to hide every sign of weakness. So that starts such a young age and again as our definition of of weakness right. So weakness is trying to kill yourself in failing at killing yourself
as a double? What I mean, that's enough. Strength should be. I wanted to go myself and I called a therapist. I call my friend, or I you know, seek help because that's actually a sign of strength, admitting that you need help really hard anecdotally, I do think male shame tends to be more isolating than female chain, like women seem to rally they open up about it. There get a group and guys just get deeper and deeper. Isolation, but you know that the stress response as human beings we release oxytocin and oxytocin- is a hormone F and so we are actually hard wired to connect and to go through stress as a community and get support through our social networks and men, release that oxytocin too. But when you withdraw- and you I salute
I told first of all, you don't need other people and if you're feeling weak there's something wrong with you, then men are not properly able to deal with the stress that they're feeling right and then don't deal with less stress than women. They just don't really have the language to be able to even but their stress, the brain, alcohol consumption languishing survey sites have been exactly there. There's two rounds when a man do feel shame either they withdraw they isolate or they act out rang they have out in hyper masculine ways rain. So let me raise my hand, yeah stages If you dare, we are supported by, c, b d m d now daylight. Saving time is right around the corner and with it have just after Halloween weekend, full of tricks and treats your sleep schedule might be all out of whack, but falling back dozen demean falling behind on your rest, you need to be your best thanks to see me
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whole life where he could go and then we'll talk to each other. Like that, you go to a pub poor during sand, and you could say I love this girl. My mom died, I loved you. Then we need that lubricant in the end it's so needed in the only way we can get it is this medicine, and so, of course, it's appealing and I in So where of that, that's what attracted me to drink under the new that you were. It was allowing you to connect with other man. Yes, I loved lived to be with my five best male friends in Detroit getting hammered and my the strain IRAN, I everyone what about around three, we keep drinking till ten in the morning in Indian probably would it be about her step dad's. We start crying, we cry almost every night together and it's like we. Certainly we could do that sober really we we needed problem. Three in the fact that that was the inevitable cycle we always got into where one of us cried at night was like what we get
lotta shit to get out on a need. This thing to help us do that there is a whole chapter about friendship, so men tend to have less friends than women lesson: debt, friendship, some women and there's this idea that actually men do this horizontal, like shoulder to shoulder friendship where men do an activity together they have their own language, what exactly they sit side to side in theirs there looking at their beers and outlook each other right, you can't we make space for men to connect just for connection right. We have, you know not especial term romance for two men going to dinner together right than we have. Saint Hush- ignore Homo went. What went to men are connecting because the thing I hear so much as that men are really hungry for connection and they get connection through the ones who are straight through there.
Extensive with women. A lot of them are actually seeking connection with other men, but they ve been hurt the most by man rang and so, where they're so hungry. For the connection is that same place that there were her by and that there may be a one point worth honourable. when they were kids, that they did come out fully as themselves and then they were told. Don't do that, don't be a pussy, don't be a fact. Yeah will generally Ellen mentally school that happening, and then you get to junior high and all that info gets weapon eyes. Yes, it's like you know shit about kids back when you still dared about seven anymore, just gets fuck it. Scar and then we d all shut it down one hundred percent- and I was so I was severely believe in you do your high and only by boys- and it was my my best friend basically like turned against me when I got a boyfriend and we were like the closest friends in an office- and I was just like
the EU death threats and turning to burn my hair down and kill me analysed up, so I had to change schools and when I look back at that time, I obviously see how is so gendered right. There were groping me. There was sexual harassment. It was also really disgusting, but they also went after other boys in such a way. They would have this ritual where they would choose one guy. There was like out right that, like they were gonna rejected, sickly and was always based on him being gay or being thought of as being a feminine right. I want, when I remember being like. Why are you not friends was like methane work? Well, he fell off his bacon, Ino hit his balls and he did it I'm. So we don't think he s ball, but user, whereby dealers things presumed organ very end, and so we talk a lot about the hierarchy between women and men. In terms of the patriarchate was a meal met? Men are the top one hour at the bottom. We don't often talk about the hierarchy within PAN Patriarch is like a pyramids game right, there's like guys at the top who actually benefit
about six percent ever Sandia less than the idea and in the rest of man, a lot of them. they along Ray, I wouldn't have to play along as its unsafe for them not to play along, and some of them are waiting for the Trickly. It's like trickle down dynamics like that. They just want to trickle down ass, sure and endeavour. For can happen. That's what I'm interested in this conversation. You know man actually talking about this hierarchy talking about how uncomfortable they are in these environments. To me, too, because I got into trouble right, so one time episode, oh right, then damn Louis Grech that happen real time and then she and I both apologized to each other, and we both saw each other's point, but she was saying you know you have, you mean a woman in just living in fear of men you and I was like men live in fear of other men. My step dad's were violent. The guys to gray's older than me were violent. When I go out on the street- and I see three dudes, I'm thinking of fighting to me now. Is it eat
No. But what I'm saying is we can relate to your point. I don't think that we should assemble in groups of male female gender. We should have simple and groups of whose victimized, by this system and again I she is right, and I was wrong in that Barry, said it's worse, for what I was doing was. I was the white person saying, wait, black lives matter all lives matter, and it's like we'll know. It's a given y, wives, Mary. I agree again with both of you when we talk about gender violence, for example, that is code for men's violence against which is rampant in every society across the world and is something that we need to address. We talk about in summing up. I've expired Firstly, my mom: it's in there haven't my family and something that I have thought of everyday, my life? The other thing.
No, we don't acknowledge is that yes, most perpetrators of violence are male for sure, but also most victims of violence are also mail. So look at again coming back to gun violence coming back to men, committing suicide against themselves bore against other man. It is extremely common for men to be victims of violence from other men and in that's again where- people say after every book event of hasn't come up to me. That way, you saying that women should stay with our views are, as I want him saying, I'm saying the opposite right that, just because you have empathy for someone, it doesn't mean that you can't hold them accountable and just because you actually understand why this person is doing this, that this is the best that they can do with what they have. And yet they ve been molested or they ve been abused or they were handed. You know of this paper system that made them fear what makes them vulnerable instead of lean into it. Brene Brown had to study about that. Some women were victims of domestic violence. If they believe that their male partner is doing the best that they can they're more likely to leave because they're not likely to think
can change them right, and this comes on discovery conversation you have in only now in this gender war that women think that they can change man. Women think that men are inherently bad twenty, to stick around in here right. What if we thought the men were inherently good that they were handed a system that made them do bad things and that instead of assigning those behaviors too to them as people that were in a shame these human beings as their bad human beings. Why don't we talk about the behaviors? and whether they even enjoy those behaviors right, whether Billy Bush enjoyed being in that bus and wheezing and laugh. Are you now Billy boy? I was normally sympathetic. I'm like what are you gonna do pick a fight with this guy challenges. World view in the next five minute exactly end the pc like talking about this is now need to challenge men, another spaces when I'm in these rooms on books or I've, asked the rumour like to have you ever seen a man do that every man just shakes his head like now
absolutely, not because you can't be that guy or its extremely hard to be that guy and is to be the good that girl its eyes and hard to stand up to someone you lie. In my view, in the middle of the wrong- and you want to call out your alpha- comes at great risk, yes in its bonkers, but again I just wanna admit I Benny bully for certain. I have made tons of kids school, feel terrible cuz I was getting made. To heal, terrible and I fucking relish the and I had control over something, so I just want admit to that. Like I've been on both sides of it yeah imagine if all of our bullies and gone to therapy Right imaginative, Donald Trump onto their b. how the world would be different, be right. Measures have dont humps dad had gone to therapy instead of projecting his own issues. In on to him, I could have a program doll jump in the book, as I just said,
It's so revealing of this entire conversation, which is I don't like to analyze myself, because I probably won't like what I'll see that the reason why he's not interested in going to therapy, because that's exactly the prototypical ideal of a sleigh that he embodies great little road maps of masculine existing. They can't probably claim they eat pussy. That was a weakness in early March law is in their bonkers. Where are they can go to therapy? They cut in others all these energies like great, that explains it. He only went to there being a more pressing. We have any problem, that's even a thing in a lot of seventies and eighties, black movies, two guys won't say that will lead us.
Years ago. There's this huge, I mean, thank God. There was a backlash him, but he was like don't do that do that. But you know breakfast cover something and illegal detention you're down use again, of course, then you look at the data which is like most women again not to journalists. Betel most women actually need oral sex in order to come, and so, if men are just not doing that because there their men also, what does not? except anyone get the rationale behind the oh. I've heard this. It is somehow but you're like lowering yourself to hurt right. It's it's your fault. I can't begin to give you the logic behind it. Cuz I you know not wanting to do that, but so I don't really understand the logic other than maybe I'm supposed to fuck chicks, I'm supposed to put it in But you know I'm supposed to hammer them kiss that you know like that's gay. I don't fucking know what it is.
the opposite of you? So that's what it is like I don t exactly making women comes in thousand percent. If you want repeat business Okay now, just for shits and giggles. I want to take one element of the opposite argument: as I had many, because I believe I am increasingly believe that this is less necessary, but I will say we need roles Siderite, we need someone's got to chop up bodies someone's got to shoot people someone's going to do so much ugly business to be done on planet earth. Now I can. I can fast forward to it utopia where the skill sets not needed in a, technology increasingly it's not needed, but for a hundred thousand years on planet earth. Other tribes came in and tried to the women and children men seemed
this weird compartmentalize brain where it's time to get ugly and I can click psycho mode and I can handle this and it's going to get bloody and gory. It's fucking, gross and I'll think about it later, but it needs doing, and I can do- and I do think there is some evolutionary evidence that we have this gear she's, a kind of dissociated less emotional, Babo Bob, because so often that was required again. It's largely non required now, but I do wonder by getting rid of all this we're all empathetic and emotional. On wonderful, raw. Maybe it ends up, situations that even require the dirty work but shouldn't. Still be capable of the see normally work yeah. So a few things I think at such a good point. First of all, emotional intelligence crying. My holding is let boys, Krajina
make boys cry like I don't want it to be mandatory for men to be crying all over the place. I don't think that every woman cries all the time and that's the way that she expresses sadness. I think that we should be elevating emotional education as something that's just as important as all the other education that we have in our system. Right, we think about. You have to learn math. You have to learn. Abroad, but why are we teaching attachment styles? Why reaching co eyes at it and we all end up being and authorities or fortys and we're like? Oh my god, I don't even know that I was and securely attach what the fuck you and you wish you would learn this far earlier, and what we're seeing now is that a q is becoming a far better predictor of over all happiness and financial success. Over IQ twice, likely hopefully boys I dont, want to be more emotional. I want meant to be more emotionally capable. I want men to know what emotions there feeling so that they can manage em so that I don't have to do it for you, I'm so that you don't end up drinking going and
up a school or whatever other activities were seeing men really unhealthy behaviour that they're taking part in that aren't good for a society and are good for them. I want to be able to know what they're feeling so that they don't have just too emotional states that angrier or I'm, not angry area horny exactly about, and so I want that this is a result- discovery conversation about empowering man and having more control over their lives and not trained untold externally reminiscent control. My girlfriend anaemic, I'm gonna buy a gun I'm going to drink. These are ways that men are trying to have control over their lives. There were not fundamentally giving them any control one last kind of calmed. All this, which is, we talked incessantly about the mask you live in on here. I assume saying that so great and then at work. I went, and I told my friend Ashton to watch and he told me a little watch, a male watch it and then I told Alicia,
ecostar to watch and she watched it with her hockey player husband. We all agree, we all agree, but I had to say at one point can say what you want, but to pretend that this isn't one blob of interwoven. Everything: it's not a male female issue. So if you don't want the job Dickhead Bali to be that Hey, don't reward him we or attention in affection, so that women are plain apart to his guys. You can do it ever the fuck lands of girl, eminences, that's one or one. So it's like we're. All a role, so I was like. Yes, we all agree, but Christine you married a fucking really mealy, you married a fuckin guerrillas in illicit literally, your husband is a browser and then a child like so all that said, you guys were attracted to fuckin may the more. I think we can all go. What would this is a group problem and we're all gonna have to do it off, but it's just a cycle, though, because Girls are under the exact same
pressure is, as the manners of the girls think. Oh I have a guy. That's the most popular gap at the captain of the football team of endorsing. Is then your status. What up so it's it's just a bizarre and align all I'm asking for is for us to recognise its everyone's. Go, we're all in to say to all parents now raise your boys differently. Yes raise your boys differently, because what also raise your group, Similarly, as their intermingling ones raise everyone. The same raised boys and girls suspected right. One should write a dirt by one point: a rider prepare an end when they talk about in the book as it so bad ass for girls to act more like boys right, it's bad ass. If she's like she's on a dirt bike, and why isn't it cool for boys to do what a girl does? Why isn't it
as cool in bad ass, an that's because, fundamentally of mythology right, we devalue what his eminent in our society. So it's been like I'd unfinished gender revolution and, of course women are part of the system right this saying about If your fish in water, they don't know that they're in water, we don't see it we're just part of it and so for the Bucknell part of the journey of writing. The book was realizing how I was part of the problem too, and that in my release with man. I was demanding that they open up, but then I was also d that they made up right at night was perpetuating this culture of we split the dull, like I had to pay for my own. I try. So I'm not sure that you were really meant to be right into the system, so I actually went on a chivalry diet for the book, where I just stopped buying into all of I started paying half of that for everything I was like this is going to suck I discovered so much. About my relationships and how, when I was buying into these preordained,
again that are made up. The guy had to pay for the drains were guy had to went on and we can get away like, he would offer to pay for the house. I was basically inviting this weird power. Dynamic were absent. what I needed as much for days, and I didn't realize I was due Yet again I pay my work. was choosing. I think people who weren't right for me is value proposition is that he can pay for his. Yet that's his value proposition Then that need to be that he's emotionally aware exactly and then, if he's not doing that, he needs to show his affection and show that he cares for me and in other ways, and that also made our relationship much more rich and then you have. The data about stems likes couples, rights of same sex couples. I now so as queer through the writing of the product, the writing of the book tunas, riding women- and I learned more about me and when I started getting women actually in realising that again out. This was just
water to me, and I just didn't see the how the system operated until I was out of it. The same sex couples actually have far greater happiness in their relationships and they share domestic chores more equally, because you know if the guy wants to cook yes to say that he wants to cook in it the whole thing really enjoyed making lunch and you really enjoy what cleaning the bathroom so we're just going to do it. That way, certain, join changing, breaks out would be like doing now. You lie so you to stop liking that thing that laughing I don't let people do that well and I would just say so, for men who are listening, that what I would delineate so you're saying you know open up more, but me a man man up. I think there is an actual difference there that we can invite people on which is. There is a line between vulnerability in neediness yeah and what is unattractive his meeting and one is unattractive.
The? U knowing someone need you for their own identity that that's what's unattractive being vulnerable insane, I'm scared is as hot yeah is, let's brave young, so what you really forget, the the amateurs of male female, this evaluation, that wine is between neediness vulnerability and I think that's the one you gotta figure out which side to be. You think we need a new term for vulnerable Eddie. You think vulnerability inherently like women get it and they they know it's trapped as we read like Sixpenny Round bucks, but do you think like resilience or like a nun return would be more appealing to men cuz. I think a lot about even making therapy more appealing to men, right, a lot of men. Think about that and the veal amassed I think words are some potent and I took out the word toxic Macedonia almost entirely out of the lad. I pointed out that women, unlike imagine that there was a
bake going on, we were regularly using the term toxic femininity. Just imagine your exact femininity over and over again you be like or wait a minute is implicit in feminine. They must be sought. You know it is not the right inviting its lighting and yeah. I took it entirely out and I I thought I d lies. Masculinity was a better term right. They offer the ASEAN regional power over the solution as that of the problem in one hundred, I totally glad tat what I like You a lot really glad you came in legal terms and fan the Limpang, so everyone should read your book it for the love of man, a new vision of mindful masculinity. Do you know what I was told us men, one up by this book. Leandro so Q, you think it likely they Tommy met men, don't buy books and then and what I've seen first of all, I had amazing moment where there's a big publisher who passed on my book- and I was on an epic
Some morning, Joe and after words, she takes my agent and she said I we were getting ready to leave my boyfriend sexual assault by Barnes, a noble and the the woman's. Wine. He said I want to get this book. I can remember it's called something about men and she goes is it for the love of I want to get that book and the publisher said I could imagine the kind of man who would buy. Book and now I'm dating back good again, you know I was told women are gonna, be spoken in they're gonna, give it to the men in their lives, but I can tell you, based on my dams and based on messages I am getting, and even the audiences, its super, diverse and men are craving this conversation. Men are craving a conversation that is productive. That is positively framed
as a solution where were they are the solution? Were there not just the problem? I just all end on this because I think it's important that one of so there's a these APL guidelines around, thereby dealing with male patients and how to make sure that are not reinforcing. All of these. You know masculinity troops and that on unhealthy and one of man who came up with these guidelines told me gender is like a swiss army knife. So there's a knife my fine lies all these little tools and this conversation My masculinity is not about taking away tools, you can't you're more Saigon, because you like it, you can have a gun anymore, I'm not taking away guys I'm sayin men, they can't fight, they can go. They can be aggressive right there. Certain moments where it is important to be aggressive right, an end. There are moments where that's great, it's about it
standing. The swiss army knife it's about giving more tools down there, I've heard a really really fine. If I put my mouth on a body part that taste like perfume, I be a little You so much for coming and good luck with the rest of your day and be great with your book, and now my favorite part of the show. The fact check. With my soulmate Monica Padman You say you want to see everyone's penis right now with them, knowing you're seeing it, but everyone you see what you liked,
if you could take a quick peek and no one knew when you take a peek depends on the person yeah, and I'm not even asking like for sexual reasons, just curiosity reason, because the shapes are so different, isn't it intriguing gas? This might be a boy girl thing or just a deck. Monica thing can I would want to see every single person. We know that we know you and I know in common, I if I could see a photograph of them naked. I would definitely look yeah that you now you were. I guess I would just add a carrier city, but not even like remotely sexually for some of the people. Of course, But you would you yours, yes, open to turning sexual you'd, expect that it probably would
gotta be sexual. It wasn't looking at a pitcher of someone's by giant what it's gonna be sexual. I'm seeing Charlie and Ryan Bear Naked, but I want to take a peek at their testicles and penis nearby cheeks and stopped at the girl yeah, it's so the girls. I want to see all them too, and then some of them will probably give me a p q and then some won't, but I still want to see the ones that aren't I'm not in it. For the p, Q is my point for the curiosity that just gave me an idea for, like a fundraising calendar. What if you got like twenty celebrity, it doesn't make sense for a calendar to be twelve but let's say, there's two per paid, so twenty four celebrities, one thousand two hundred and twelve females their faces on the cover. the the counter and then just very specific body parts penis, menorah, Giora Brass, but cheeks it, but just that sea dont know who's who
you'd be raises money for like kids now one. Why not? Why were you ever raise money for kid, because all these people would buy so they could tried it in their mind, may be figuring out whose it was, but no one knows who so everyone be protected in it would raise all this money for kids. You don't think this would sell their everyone's gonna be masturbating, dear parts should be for the care. Others do now well nigh add them inspire adults with Scipio D. I saw you see your pity. I just did it when I dislike ceiling and I believe in it I agree that it so easy to mix up letters evaluate your dyslexia seo. Pd is some kind of respiratory disease that people have a name They re run a lotta commercials forward on sixty minutes. You know why sixty minutes every week and as for all people here, what did I do see? Oh there is a commercial for an old people. Movie tat looks fan
twice. Data Helen me make, and I want to see the shit out of it. Look hands ass to Greece. In the trail I haven't, looks great. It looks maybe Helen Mirren would be one of the people on this calendar and Miquelon. They would probably be Your died out of my they be little. Lama knows, I think you do think. Maybe the counter could raise money for scale bees. I think that to share in it also is cohesive. It's like body parts that lead to scale woman. I think, go all the way and in the counters for Herpes, but happy that maybe the actors will be afraid to be associated with her beauty. This is so regular. Every idea is under the radar is more elusive. We need to bring awareness to scale be with you in the biggest aches calf. Ok, let's Lisbon
it is. Why did I vote air of year to year be up here, but we should break it. Some feedback from her on because there does the in the in the moment reaction, which use has been very kind. He asked generated, generous and thoughtful and maybe even codependent, chair and then there's what she'd older friends, and I would love to hear a kind of what she too. I really she told her friends. It smell bad report which did not objective. We didn't write while yet and smell the oder level, just cause Robin Smell, it doesn't mean it didn't smell. Haiti was right next to you, while I was the closest to me, and I didn't smiling, and I know when they smell yea smelt your smile, yes, but I do wonder what her version with me not around is like this big grows, son of a bitch. She did not say that thousands, apologies, She probably thinks of it exactly as she told you,
but I'm a unique person, and you are too I would love it if I was around someone I liked you know from the outside and then they tooted in front of me. It would be great. hayek in Desperado, like that, even if you were in bed with her, I would now be on. I was doing it was cute. You prefer not to happen. I dont know Salma Hayek Desperado, I might prefer it happened, to make I think I'm serious you'd prefer it I'll. Tell you why cause I'd have to imagine and was in a regular occurrence, I'll go. Oh she's gonna remember this for the rest of her life. It kind of them. It makes you closer the
you other, why I mean is a real threshold. It something that doesn't happen to you now for some folks Y know, Mary folks that have never part provided that the real rare, that's all raising on that topic. I think I've heard this out before, but you know here's my thing more than I would ever dislike the sound or the smell of a too I hate the idea that someone around me is uncomfortable air and doesn't feel free to be them yeah. So the reward of it is so much higher than whenever the immediate downside is some like this person trusts me. They feel free to become for your own me. This is a real good sign tat. I get that, but also you know the fear of doing it is, as though seem less attractive. Right brown would not have now, but you know what I know you're saying that, but I think it does have and I dont you happen to me in high school days ago.
On top of me, wait what no I was in high school. I met a girl while cruising Plymouth, Michigan, a car, and I was, I think, driving Kenny's car case? Let me drive his car when I was fifteen. I didn't hear my license, and so I met this girl cruising and I think she was eighteen. Topical crazing cruising psyche just go downtown Plymouth and you go in circles in a cool car and erroneous cuckoo cars in than you a meet girls engages driving around these drive and our own show off your cut one. This case Kenny's carved it was a Mclaren, very rare Mustang, so gorgeous really- carbon out and a pitcher. It was burgundy circle. I meet this gal. I end up going to her house not that night, but another night, member in somehow she picked me up, and I just you know what I was doing. I knew she thought I had to be over. Sixteen I met or driving bright, and she was eighteen, oh boy, and I just kind of cap that under my life
and then we were fooling around. She was on top of me and she was nude. and I was laying on my back in she's working and then I'll send you and then tries to put her butt on the blanket really quick in a good volume. Trumpet came out, I immediately I didn't care. I felt terrible for her under eighteen, yeah she's so embarrassed. I immediately grabbed her and kiss her. I go. Oh my god. This is, I don't give a fuk. I don't give a fuk and she's like She was really embarrassed, but it did not. It did not make me less attracted to her. Other than did it. I now know no so that ok, ok, yeah, so have we,
An odour deal would have any changes in less attractive. You have to be honest about that. I dont know that it would have been less attractive now. What do you think position as the worse for than in them, because I mean the Euro one in particular what do you think does missionary whatever here. There are gay pride. Same ass up is not right we're not going I mean now, although Rog is came over the top. Ok, that's probably definitely the worse, but as far as positions, we think missionaries the preferred of all these rank, probably for the girl at the girls when I fired at the guy far as maybe he's on his back she's onto that's the preferred because again you're gonna, it's gonna go into some clear fabric me Asher, we're trapped. Sir,
I still think that if people fart- and it smells okay, cuz you're saying you like it, because it makes me feel closer to people which I get, and I feel that way but- I think men don't feel that way. I really don't feel that way about my best friend. he farts warn anyone I know I have is is farts are repugnant and I come to love them like they're mine, they dont error, my children or my wife, a dark hair. It's smells familiar. Vienna yeah feels it smells like a bond like a close bond. that's nice, so anyway, okay! Well, you want far with that. So she said that bench should have, but like Ben Shapiro said about Trans,
one of the things he said is no. It's not in the mind. You are not a man if you think you're, a man idea that sex or gender is malleable is not true, so he said that in any said, some other things to better use. Wilfulness. Yeah, do you know That's the idea. Why on earth would you biologists he loves stirring, pies provocateur, that's his profession, tat. In fact, I was get mad at people when they're, like outraged by certain people whose literal job is to outright. That's how they're making money I mean you repose their shit than you yell at their new as feeling it's like, I think one guy Pierce Morgan cause. He used is be sensible. There was a moment when he was on CNN or he was like. I would listen to him at all. That's a great point We just says these things: these, like sound bites just to piss off a big sector of the population, images fuel, the coverage of it
I do that perpetuates provocateur who's, trying to get you to do that now, you're right, but so there are Ex biological carry a type sexes that do not result in the death of the feed. Us oh causes them. Aucoin filters is one of these acts. Just acts, no war, no one's says roughly one in two thousand to one in five thousand people. This is called Turner's Old, Turner's, yeah cabbages Ex accepts most common form of feed. Now x, X, Y, Climb felt felt her roughly one in five hundred to one and one thousand people murdered common X Y, most common form of man. That's me,
That's? U X, Y Y, roughly one out of one thousand people, eggs x, X y: that's a tonic chromosomes for no good rejected, roughly one in eight ten thousand to one and fifty thousand. Now of the seven billion people in the world. This means that even if they only make up, one percent of the population were talking about millions of people that are neither male nor female genetically genetically yeah. So that's not a small now and then there's a whole other category. People who are gene and typically man, gas that are fini typically something out correct, yeah and hormones, and all these things a fact- the bottom line is if someone says they feel like a woman,
how on earth is an argument you can actually engaged yet. I dont know how the person feels are not in them. Guy now and the one that was interests, Anthea, you and I, both listeners podcast- is, though, that it was a woman who was taking. She was born genetically a woman and then she felt mail inside. So she started going on hormone testosterone and stuff, and she was and I feel a unit was in his together that when she was on that she all the sudden interest sports she never had, and she also liked math and science so my kid. So she felt we can't say she didn't feel I'm dying to find the source of their right now it was never been Shapiro. Put that our way. What what is your issue
so. Yes, I mean that won't be more stereotypical and it would be used to argue what percentage is matron. What is nurtured even try to figure that out, but let's acknowledge that men like sports, a lot more than women. he presented the viewer ship of sport well to pay on the sport re like women like gymnastic, so we only get gymnastics once every four year. You do like gymnastics, but the viewer ship for the the. NBA versus the Wnba, is like fifteen fold. There's no comparison. Women, even though it's women, they don't watch Wnba. Men watch NBA. They watch hockey to all these sports. It doesn't ESPN Fox Sports, he's huge, can like they're, all male driven, so that's
obvious now again idly believe that to be nurture, but yeah, ok, but then matter. We would agree that in any any version, it's a combination, there's no such thing as a natural way or nature. Only point outcome gets a combo, but some things are majority nature and some things are majority nurture. I mean even like different regionally, that's all nurture. Schools in the south. You, everyone loves football and I went to UCLA. I would not have been in football. not at all. Not at all will they sell out that rose ball. It's a huge part of the environment, their manned I would not have had that at other school was definitely any of the unified schools right and you ve not watched for boardroom, since the dogs were o K.
Yeah. I don't do not care about college football in general right unless you ever all watching and George Amazon. That's fine but yeah. A lot of things are not my thing, here's anything yet so the undoubtedly nurtures such a huge part of all this, but I have too little kids and I've watched them play with boys and girls. Since they were six months old. The boys are fucking. Damascus lets you start their boys are so far behind little girls is crazy everything my lips. I worry, I yeah that does mean that dumb ass compared to the females are fucking domes. You haven't develop brains and develop. Do you yeah? This is the whole at the exact episode that we were
sang to its bad to label. We do this. All the time manages manders, don't get that men are still bad men. Do this. It's actually use you near man on an I'm, not looking to excuse anything. Then I'm also recognising that culture and society and nurture is a huge element of it. Yes, but I dont think you can start a position by orient something so obvious, because to me just lose all your credibility. It doesn't hurt to acknowledge that there are different at six months old or at a year old. It doesn't klute us from society changing boys in the direction. We want them to be changed in adjusting when you start by nine other say my dick and you just lose a lot of people. I think I think those people aren't thinking too hard about it. To be honest because, yes, there are
differences and some are biological, but a lot are not your parent! You take your little kid to the playground. You don't need to hear any science boys are fucking. Smashing sticks over each other's heads and beating the shit out. Everything in train a break everything I can Imagine all these hippy dippy Ella parents, I'm surrounded by our, are socializing there. To be little warriors. I dont think that happen. You see this level of aggression and destruction. It's you know it's pretty unanimous, yes, but this shows that there are watching and those things could I'll lead to pardon. Yes again, though, like my kids are picking whatever they want to watch like they were in the pop a troll right and I was like. Oh that's, I would think that's kind of cool boy show that its nature he had like yeah, but a leaner, more female character such as side. Now, there's only two chicks and there's like so,
conduce, but you know they go rescue things. They have all these machines they use, and so is watching positrons like all this is kind of cool this. This breaks the norm of what I would have thought they like that somehow, so they were open to watch whatever they wanted in May a boy have they just steered themselves straight into like fuckin barbie in all this shit? Yes, that no boys watching true, but it also at this point there is other girls in the next two other friends and staff and you're gonna pick what that everyone else is doing, which is dollar so that you can play with those people be like. I think it's just deeper than that yeah I mean it's bout. I think it is an armed. All I'm saying is figure. You lose people on either side when you ignore check that both sides are at play here. I think there's room to acknowledge that and do everything we want to do here and break all the things that you were not boys are empathetic is, I think, the network
there's a bunch of stuff, I think it's horseshit or if they're sensitive I'd argue there more sensitive you did, all of whom there are another more sensitive, but they may become more sensitive because they have no atlas. So you said that in general, men are twenty percent faster, stronger beggar in the Olympics, so I dont have a figure for that, but I think it is made up twenty four snow. I read an article about that exact case. We are talking about about setting out a test, asked room, women cost of how to handle ok and then said the men are twice
percent faster. You have you look like the long jump, the time in the hundred than the high jump unit, just generally speaking about twenty percent unfriended even use the word better, but vs objectively, faster or higher la. I didn't find it, but I believe you ok, so I dont know that the current studies she's talking about about the white girls and black girls, picking the barbie. My Marty, boa by there is old study before Brown versus Board of Education used. Is this study, and so there experiment, which evolved white and blue
on skin dolls, oh, and also this is then they had to paint the white baby, all Brown, because they didn't have brown baby dolls snake. Ok, the children were asked identified the diaper dolls in a number of ways, the ones they wanted to play with the ones that looked white, colored or negro this long time, her, the one that was good or bad filing they were asked, identify the door that looked most like them. All of these children were black, ok and all, but one group attendants, segregated schools. Most of the children preferred the white dog to the african American One. Some of the children were cry and run out of the room when asked identify which dull looked like vandal, who saw her Brenner anyway. That's that was that an event that was used in Brown, Verses Board of Education to sort of sweat illustrate how renewed legs
in deep, isn't here, one in its so fascinated to color resume with in black communities around me yeah, oh yeah, you want to be as light as I have so much self loveliness now in the hearts of all my fault. You get busy, here's the proper mean. I know you are totally joking, but people some people do here. This comment: patient and then get defence of about a young which is so annoying to me. It really is annoying war. I understand how it's annoying, but how about? If we do, we make it less personal. If I were german her in every time I travel people want to talk to me about the fact that they were not seize there
certain want to be like yeah, I get it. It's a fucking terrible, but I'm not a nazi. I have no relationship to that pass. I dont want to talk about being a Nazi all the time everywhere, just like you and hair. Yes, it's terrible, but you can see was I wish I dont want inherent eat, nor did the black be born in her all the terrible, horrendous baggage that comes back to the white people. Love em deserve because our racists, but now a lot or, like your average young german student who's carrying around this history that they have nazis there and they're like only a history there. It's currently an issue, he Will that we try to escape debt that we asked to keep talking about here? That's very true, and I think that's where the conversation evolves, which is like you know, one same slavery is existing today and that your rapporteur waiting yeah. Ok, so I kept forgetting the number of the how many close relationships you can halt
one fifty on fifty yeah, it's called Dunbar's number, all the elephant. No, that's Babar Obama, Dunbar's number done bars, number Dunbar's, member yeah, it's one. Fifty yet Dunbar's number suggested cognitive limit. The number of people with whom one can maintain stable social relationships, relationships in which an individual knows who each person is and how each person relates to every other person. This number was first proposed in the ninety nine by british anthropologist, Robin Dunbar, who found a correlation between primate brain size and average social group size by using the average human brain size and extrapolating from the results of primates. He propose that humans can comfortably maintain a hundred and fifty stable relationships
Dunbar explained it informally as the number of people. You would not feel embarrassed about joining uninvited Fred Drink if you happen to bump into them in a bar. All that's a great way to think TAT, one fifty one. Fifty we gotta diversifying out when did de oh yeah, says my point. Ok, you so there's a million people active on Twitter, twitter. Seventh, it has a hundred and twenty six million daily active users. So that's a lot of one hundred forty six times about us about planets, that wasn't one percent right. Facebook is one point, two billion daily user. my mom uses it. You know she's moved away from Michigan and so many of her friends and colleagues,
still a Michigan Tching keep track of their alive, but it you think, there's a certain danger and I've set it to her. It's like it's a gift. It will just it's a virtual connection. It's like you do feel like you're up to date on their lives, but you haven't spoken to them to hear those updates and gender something different about it. There is definitely something at it, but It's convenient it's convenient. I now it's tricky. I think there is a certain tier of relationship that you should never only be using social media to connect with, but then there's a tip under that. That's like you, weren't, going to call them anyway, but it's kind of cool to see like them and their family. Know that they're doing well and they're happy it's like that's good I'm found in our own social circle. I will go to like one of the big Jansen parties and I almost don't asked someone what they ve been up to cause they saw shark is almost like, creates a lack of
interest. I would normally have, but it's like, I know they went camping. I saw the whole. In writing. I was so I I don't need to ask here. That's a little weird posture when you are far away from paper. Hello is so my flow. My feed your feet in your flow is: let drops it's like a leaky sink you, never get enough dear you're, doing a great job like when I tell us once every man something very rarely yeah, so it's like its cherished when they come around Gatt. I like em, like Edward nor my socks, minds, just the show I have a really reminds us of the post, something not related to the show openness, but she said in a she had thy dear that shit twitter should shut down at six p m.
who all? But there was also like- and you know you can turn off twitter at six p m last rule can decide. I'm not doing this after this time when we have that sums responsibility. The reasons are not shouting at those good people stop themselves useful, given sometimes own issues, but no one could ever communicate real time, as are all Shetland off it, six six somewhere that there must be so much good stuff from twitter. But from my point of view, I really don't see any good coming from it. Just all fighting. When I look at my feet, its I don't follow fucking curmudgeons, I found like normal people. I'm friends with every fucking thing is a complain about something someone inside or something use, Auricle they're pissed about. I mean it's just out real toxic. Can I ask you, and I will try to respond arm cherries, and then I get bored at work
you shouldn't. Do I get being born but like maybe just don't Piana, I'm? U can be on its opposed, but then not ever. Look, I technically of it better I've, never was hijacked lingo got hire. Somebody Operators are part of the conspiracy, you know if it's not healthy, it's not healthy level of engagement and also be on it. Like your thing and not man, sword squirrel or do anything that's true. If the goal is to like tell people what you're doing when she is by you loved interacting with armchairs too, then if I could just get a filter onwards, just armchairs,
la both by our? I that's? I love Libya and, more so sorry loose blank and not really we I'm. So sorry. I can't be sorry about your father lobby while played a hand