« Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

Lori Gottlieb

2019-10-03

Lori Gottlieb is an American author and psychotherapist. She sits down in the attic to discuss her transition from entertainment to therapist, her willingness to listen to career advice and the importance of the patient/therapist relationship. She talks about the privilege of being let into someone’s thoughts and Dax wonders if she’s ever fallen in love with a patient. The two talk about the unfamiliarity of change, her rule for couples therapy and what it’s like seeing her patients out in the world.

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome welcome all them darn chair expert experts on expert, I'm deck shepherd joined by Monica Pomp and Monica Lily Pad man, though scarcely yet today we have the author of Amerika book currently maybe you should talk to someone. Her name is Lori Gottlieb she's, a psycho, is a New York Times, bestselling author, also it's being adapted as a television series. EVA Longoria? She writes Atlantics Weekly, dear therapist, advice, column and contributes regularly to the New York Times. Lori is full of all kinds of interesting emotional tidbits enjoy talking to where we hope you enjoy listening, Lori Gottlieb. We are supported by
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details in safety, information discuss hundreds if you went in person to the doctors office or pharmacy. Remember for hymns dot com. Slash Dax by he's a lorry got welcomed armchair expert la thank you. How are you doing today, I'm doing gray? You took a long ride to get over here. Yeah idea about. How long do you think it was it was over and out west side to Hollywood on a Friday is a real beating yeah. I wasn't expecting that Israel, I guess, on that side of town normal commute like by design I know you grew up in LA native, that's very rare. It is, but to me, Ally is kind of like may bury like sip ethic, for people who come here from other places, its this sprawling
megalopolis year, but for me I walked down the street and I see like people from kindergarten really yeah and like the same Ladys, who worked at the bakery when, when my mother would take me when I take my son there are there still there. Oh that's one. What more deserted european I grew up in the west side but you re a guy you gotTa Samuel now are you didn't? I went to Pebbly has high school? Oh, my God was their traumatic. Now, wasn't it wasn't? Okay, because course from someone that's from Michigan and Monica from Georgia, I think, Everley Hills nine, or to allow, I think of guys driving like Lamborghini's school. You know huge me
genes was all that the mix now with television quite near by television isn't always react if Romania assistance, which is gas for one second, did you have any frames classmates? You didn't know, let's see so David trimmer from France older than I wide open and Nick cage. I was my brother's year, although my lunch is take a little second bear. So he's problem the reason I got enacting a really. I am so fascinated with him what an interesting human being Do you remember him in your high school? I do remember him. You know I was a freshman, who's. The senior, so I didn't have any interaction with him, but I definitely knew who he was okay now more than momentary do totally not in the business. My dad was a stockbroker and my mom was a travel agent
Is that mean you guys got to travel with John when you were younger, it means that my mom I travel. We did travel that they often right. They'll have travel agents come for free just to give their stamp of approval? Do they're not Pham trap sudden and my mother would go like familiarization trips. I think it sounds for oh, I would really like I wish so, yeah so she's been. You were really loves to travel is wanderlust. That would be a good partner for me. every three days I wanna go somewhere else. So does she? I think I should introduce yeah. We know who else does is TED Turner, watches sixty minutes segment on him, Jane Fonda, the hardest part about be married to him, was that every three daisies Ike Artless get on the plane and go somewhere else. I gotta get out of here, and I can really relate to that. Now, isn't it you go directly from Beverly Hills high to Yale I dead. I can't imagine you know a lot about Monica and I, but we invented it.
called a unified, we are unifies yeah. We really like these fancy schools or cave obsessed with fancy schools and in Beverly Hills high on top That is the kind of one to party added but Yale and then ultimately Stamford right. So I started at Yale edge of my first two years. There then I transferred to Stamford, because I got a job working, doing motion picture publicity for paramount fur, the college demographic in the Bay area I had to be in the Bay area. Oh so I laughed so did you ever been trust in the movie business, but I did I worked after college. I worked in the entertainment business doing what was I was in a system. Add an agency trial by fire and then I did some development and then I moved over to NBC and I was a baby executive at NBC the year that er and friends both premier law? Nor must see tv? That was one must be
tv was what a time to be there. Yeah Monica's As for either obsessed with ever such as EVA Trimmer were coming back, I now pass that, but I felt it plays a user reoccurring theme in your life. Yeah I hope you Sunday treatment. I guess I'm wondering how you would get from that on that trajectory to then psychology and really nonlinear path, but I think it makes sense in retrospect everything that I've done has to do with story. you mean condition, and so, when I was working in Hollywood, it was all I love story. That was why I wanted to do it. I loved these rich human stories and when I was working on air, we had this consulted on. The show who is an actual ye are doc he would you know how choreographed the trauma Bay scenes and make sure that they were accurate? Sometimes we don't know what no mask on George Clooney, because why do you want to cover
Ferrari, and I think you'll like it better here than you like her I love the er because something was expected. Behind of an inflection point in people's lives, when you just see people come in and there they are, and so, while the show was you know grey, terms of really capturing this. This human experience, I think, sing it in real life, was really fascinating to me, and so I did go to medical school, so I left and they see I went to Stamford from bet backup to Stamford to medical.
Matter, let that fits into your obsession with that will force it yeah your checking, so many bananas raising friends and we see will see Dv Sandford Yale medicine while right. So I went up to medical school and when I got there it was the whole dot com right. So it's like ground zero, for you know, though, dot com are all dear up in Silicon Valley. Owen may is our eyes get something which is that my first book was published the first year of medical school, because when I was getting ready for medical school, I was looking for my old chemistry and physics notes daddy for the income and I found my old diaries I ended up publishing goes, and so that became my first book and then, when I was in medical school,
managed care was starting and a lot of my professors were saying the way that you want a practice medicine. The way that we have always practice medicine seems to be really difficult to do now because of managed care and the fifteen minute visits in the agenda companies in the hall landscape was changing. He had just ended, bring people speed, who might not know a man's carers right. The whole system cunning, its digitize, it gets maundered gets track. They really in an attempt to make everything so efficient the whole model. Can changes right around that time. Yeah and I had this fantasy of being the family doctor who sees people through who their entire life span, and you know really hussies relationships of by patients where You know they come to me and I know them really wow and you just couldn't really do that in this new system. Beards interesting, as I think about the, but probably majority of listeners of this show are the much younger than me and I think, only have that experience with
I remember when I started going while the doctors now typing on a computer during this consultation and looking at the computer more than me, first and foremost there doctors who knows could they aren't a computer so for I ve doctors, it was like a big learning curve just to be entering data into the thing here, bicycle to having insurance companies, tell you what you can and can't do and what you can and can't prescribe, because it's all the planters not on the plan, and so I think it it took away sort of the art and the create. video medicine in a lot of ways, yeah- and so I I set up, leaving medical school to become a journalist, and I I'm a journalist, but I love being a journalist, because I got to tell people stories. I got to really delve into people's lives. in that way, and then I had a baby and after I had a baby, I felt very isolated during the day, because all of a sudden, all that sort of
contact. I would have during the dangerous. Wasn't there with adults, and so the european sky would come with all my Deliveries like all the papers and everything that you would order and might be like how about those diapers and you have kids and he would like back away. It was big brown try to avoid me, as I called the dean at Stanford, and I said, can I come back? Can I finish? Maybe I should do psychiatry and she said, if you do psychiatry, you're going to be doing a lot of prescribing antidepressants and anti anxiety medication? And it's not going to be the kind of thing you want to do. You're welcome to come Do you really want to do that with a baby with a toddler when you could get a graduate degree in clinical psychology and be a therapy Do what you want to do here and that was this hormone met, so already, I know, you're somebody who and what a gift you're open to hearing Kohl's opinions and taking on that advice. The er doctors suggested you go back to school and then now the dean, I'm envious
open, mindedness, it's admirable, but before move on your diaries, what what ages were they written that you publish That was when I was eleven eleven so interesting did you have a friend who wrote this great book called Dear Diary, Lesley Arfin her diary, she probably sit and then she would both then recount what now? In retrospect, you think was really going on and then in many cases would go like interview the people from that story to see if it jive with their memory of it, and it was. This- is kind of fascinating. Look at how your memory works are all these things. Were you drawing any conclusions from what you have written or was it just the entries themselves? It wasn't edited version of the entries and you know I thought it was really important for that book to keep the voice of the eleven year old girl, whose kind of looking at women and wait and culture and
that's cute because you're eleven, but I think that's important, because I think it's important for us to see what our young women, what are young girls thinking about as they're forming a sense of self as they're forming a sense of who they are the culture and who they are relationship to what they're worth is and what appearances to them. You know, and I think that that that theme has come read through, like even in in the current book, and maybe you should talk to someone there's this whole question of how accurate are ours worry. So even as the dolls right, so we're all unreliable narrate all the worse. You and you can see that even in this book, when I M interacting with my patience- and I know that everything that people are telling me as a therapist, it's just a story told by a particular author and then there's another version of the story. Two in my job is almost to be an editor is to uncover what is the other version of the story? What are they
What are they emphasizing or minimizing? What are they seeing? What do they want me to see in the way that they're telling their story, and I think we can get more clear about what the really is, and not just our very narrow version of the story. That's when we start to make changes. I am curious when you are writing at eleven cause. I wrote a young age to its very hard. To be honest, yourself. It's very hard to really know what you're doing, but I do recall writing in imagining it being read, because I too, aspire to be a writer, so I don't know My journal entries were even my real voice as much as what I thought all this will be read at some point. So if there was even a performance that I just wonder of your entries were literally eleven year old is letting the spill out or review to conscious of like all this will be read, and I also want to present myself
certainly even imagine turning diary. That's so funny. I was the opposite of that. You were yeah, I mean I never imagined I would be a writer or a therapist, so it's it's kind of wild, I do what I do, was writing those diaries? It was survival, it was I need somewhere where I can be wrong. An honest and just get my feelings. and I never want to anyone to see them like, and my nightmare would have been that somebody saw those diary rights? Were you at all where of? Like Anne Frank? Yes, in fact Anne Frank inspired my getting my first diary road, so I we're leaving. That was in the mix for me too, but then I was aware of the fact that, ultimately, everyone read Anne Frank's diary. So you know what I'm saying was like them. The model itself implied that some, read it? Somebody else you know it's interesting. I think that that performative aspect that your talk
How about? I see that a lot in therapy where I think people come in and they feel like it's very confidential, free private. What they're talking about with me but there's also sometimes I think, before they get comfortable in therapy performative aspect that they want to be liked. They want to be thought of in a certain way and they tell their story in a specific way. seems like it's very wrong authentic, but but there's something I think, there's a rehersal on the way driving over to therapy or people saying what am I going to talk about today and then they know it Opener right and you can tell when people have rehearse their opener the deepest element of it. Is it be intrinsically motivated and performance like for me when I'm like what am I going to talk about today? It's not because I want the therapist to like me at this point. At the beginning. I did feel that it's just
extra vulnerable with yourself. It's like how to I choose to see this or like I'm, not going to say that part, because I don't want that to be true, not really for her. But for you you know if I say it, it becomes real yeah, it's really hard and then there's like there's so many layers within it. Be at what level are you going to just go freeform on it and some little you're always Protecting your own identity are projecting your own identity in an effort to like cement it so even if I'm yeah in therapy. I have a very who I am and I'm trying to convey that to you, even while maybe and work something out sincerely it just all very murky part of what therapy does. Is it hold up a mirror to you how to test yourself in a way that you normally don't see yourself or that you prefer not to be seen, and I think that people are
give that, but I think that what they come to realize this once they look in that mirror. It's not so scary and they're going to like that version of themselves, so much more than the performative version of themselves. doc allowed on here about like intrinsically motivated things and ex principally motive you did things in Zaire My own journal was like a mix of those two things, but you're sounds like it was very intrinsically and survival motivated put his fascinating right, and I think that if I had thought that people would read it, I probably would have You know cleaned up different way. I think that people are more inherently interested in the non pretty version, or they are the real version that to me how a works the magic of it for me, as watching someone else, approach rawness in invulnerability, in real, miss and
and being able to relate and then aspire to that. As I appreciate the example in front of me, quite often it's very helpful to me struggles are, It is our own parts of ourselves that we feel shame around ok. So you go to the effort in Dude changed as I call G right do immediately like a de Gaulle. Ok, I'm on this was the right thing. In a sort of like I went from telling people stories of the journalists to helping people change their stories as a therapist, I feel like it was taking the story part to another level, and I still do both I think they're, complementary in a lot of ways, but I do I feel like that. I get up everyday and the job that I do feel like a privilege to be able to get into people's law.
Isn't that way and have them trust you with their lives? It's no small thing. I think you know why I'd never take that for granted, not not ever when somebody comes in for a session that they're coming to me and they're. Trusting me with this, and this is really important to them, that I have a responsibility, upon gets deeply flattering to be someone that someone truss, the anything you have to earn it. So we agree in that. Almost everyone comprise benefit. therapy in so many more people are in therapy. Then people admit right, like millions of millions of people are in therapy, but some reason. There is still some stigma attached to that now. Do you ever a theory and why we have a pandemic of needing to. talk to someone or have therapy. You have a theory on. Why such need of it. I think that, no matter what people come in to talk to me a there's an underlying sense of loneliness or lack of candor
and even if there are happily married, even if there are surrounded by friends or family, I think that people are not connect. doing in the ways that were organic in the past, like you, walk outside Can you see your neighbors? You know you're at the grocery store and you run into people you get together with people and their their work comes back that and I'm not anti technology, but you know where there isn't something like finger buzzing or ringing and you're just focused on the other person. Things felt different in terms of how you interacted with people and now, even with our own families, even with people who live under the same roof? So often people be like co, computer in the same house- oh yeah, yeah or they're just on their phones in their sitting next to each other, but they're not really with each other near you'll see a whole family each person on there. I had heard her on a couch yeah, but because I'm I'm curious about it, because the really quick fun history is right that for a long time in psychiatry,
psychology. People had an issue with what is the standard for diagnosing right. So then the dsl is created to kind of unify, as some standard of diagnosing different mental health issues. Yes, M cunning gains acceptance in its admit What becomes really clear is that by Csm's definition, it is pandemic, like most Americans we're gonna fall somewhere on the d, a sum of having some issue that needs to be addressed. You know I. I talk a lot in a book about diagnosis in its limitations. As far as I'm concerned that I think its useful If you know that somebody has a certain personality disorder, for example, or you know that they have clinical depression or you know they suffer from generalized anxiety disorder. It helps you to understand generally how you can help them what technique you need to employ? What's going
with them and how to help them with those specific symptoms for those specific behavioral patterns, for example, unlike a personality disorder vetoing depression, often I'll say to people like you are not the best Percinet talk to you about you right now, because depression distorts our perspectives, it it narrows them and they can't really see things while there in the depression suit. You have to understand that about depression, so that that's where diagnosis is helpful, but words not helpful, is like in the book I write about this guy. Do cops, mean he's extremely abrasive, he's extremely insulting to me by stories earlier zero Hunter, but he's really hurts alike in the beginning. You know he becomes. I think somebody that that, certainly for me- and I think, for people who read the book that he somebody that we come to love so much. You know as we get to know him and see what's under that
so could I diagnosis with you know a narcissist personality disorder shore, probably but it doesn't matter, because in a lose the person behind the diagnosis, I don't want to lose the person, because everybody is unique. Everybody has their own makeup their own. their own character, logical issues. And yes, I know how to deal with now. System in a certain way, but I also need to deal with the human being right in front of me, and so I really am but that does not set out. That's great regret that that actually leads jerkily. Nor a couple different things I wanted to talk about. One is when you study language right in you, you can learn so much about how people use certain words so here and in most of the west, people are asking a frantic they are by polar. They are new name right, so inside They are in Africa, where my one of my professor did her work. It's more like a cold like. Oh, you have a cold
have these- is up and running by you suffer from this and that the implication of course, is that you may one day not suffer from it or you may get rid of it. But here is a permanent label, a permanent condition There seems to be no escape from him just the way we pray really tells us a lot about how we're approaching it. So it sounds to me, like maybe you're more open. Notion that diagnosis is one thing, but it's not really, maybe the meat of it and it's not the most relevant part of it. Now I'm really interested in who is the human being sitting across for me in whatever they present to me, and I ve been take that a step further and say that when we talk about in a somewhat suffers from depression or summit suffers from anxiety in a lot of ways, I think nowadays they approach might be make friends with your anxiety like, instead of looking at it as an enemy. Make friends with its part of
what you, what you experience, we all experience anxiety is not unique to that person. Maybe you experience more, but you need to make friends with it because then you're not battling it so much and then, when it's there and it comes to visit you, then you say hello. And it doesn't feel so overwhelming on the same topic, I'll start by saying: friends who have had to medicate their kids and I was pretty insensitive and I was not in that situation. I shouldn't had a strong of an opinion as I had but at a lunch. I was kind of railing on putting kids on medicine and they're like like. I felt the exact same way, but it was so with that said that I recognize that some kids definitely need. Medicine is they're, not still a risk. labeling, kids, such a young age, with certain things putting them on. You know, riddle Adderal? What are your thoughts that exists in that you think it's definitely necessary at times, but I wonder what your thoughts are unjust kind of the region,
which were doing it and to me it seems, like best time to generally learned some behaviors that can be addressed these things like cognitive, behavioral therapy type stuff that learning coping mechanism, all these things, if we medicate kids and we we get them into that, road. We called normal on the DSM. Are we at risk of denying them the opportunity to what skills and coping mechanisms in all these things games when medication can be really helpful, but I also think that you need to see who that person is, and As we all know, we go through different phases as developing an even as adults, we go through different phases, so I think sometimes parents get very anxious about difference in their kits that you know
Your kid doesn't fit into. You know like on a chart like right in the 50th percentile of everything you know when certain things you want them in, like the 90s one hundred percent, outlier in some way that somehow we pathologies that right that all of a sudden, something is wrong with them, as opposed to kids, are all over the map in terms of what their behaviors your leg. What there? Natural set point is for tolerating, say, anxiety or depression, and we can help them to tolerate things. We can help them to with their feelings and normalize that now there are situations where they do need some help. But I think that we tend to jump toward the quick fix and it doesn't give them a chance to develop some of these coping skills or two release, who they are, and I think that apologizes them very young where they feel like I suffer from this, and this is going to handicap me
and then also there's kind of like a built in limitation or for, like a better word, an excuse. So the expectations are a very low of you, because you have this label, then you can there was a self fulfilling prophecy on some level. I don't think the expectations are lower ethic. What happens is that there are such high expectations for kids nowadays binge in general. It so there's so much pressure So you know I have a thirteen year old and I'm shocked by the pressure kids each feel around what they need to do: when and what's coming up in college, I didn't. College was even in my mind. At thirteen years old, but they it's in their world. So I think there's so much pressure. I think a reason that kids get medicated sometimes when they don't need to be as because the parents are worried that they are going to go along this path. The union left out undergoing left out of whatever path. This isn't it's a very narrow path that isn't the road to happiness.
right or whatever you know. We call it contentment, he also filling life. So I think we have a very narrow definition of what a good life is I think of my own experience having dyslexia and as a kid getting labelled that, but there being any medication for that. It's not like ADHD, where I could have taken a pill and then having turn up, knowing all you're twice as likely to go to prison if you're dyslexic and then not until Malcolm Gladwell. Does some subsequent study now, you're also twice as likely to be a ceo and now thinking. Oh, I kind of tell you that I was dyslexic. I think it's now help me ultimately and if I had a One of my two daughters happens to be dyslexic. I don't think I'd be bummed How did you know? I would hope that they would overcome and and be something good, but also, I could add, could see the temptation if there were a pill to fix that its very tempting yeah. I mean I think that it's helpful to know what they're struggling with, so you can find a way to support them, but there's a difference between you know.
putting an over reacting right now. There's a lot of interesting things about your book. Stop someone which again is all the rage is Monica just said everyone in our front. It's almost like the m. Condrey is underneath condo redouble hiding up it's so funny, because so many of my patients would mention that book in my office was a little bit cluttered and write and tell me such as ITALY, Vinyl yeah. That's exactly our interpreters Fisher Visa. You you yourself have their busier right. So basically the book follows for patients, mine as they go through the various things that they're going through and then I'm v patient, as I'm going. Therapy. When this crisis happens in my life, and so you see therapy from me as patient. In me, as clinician at the same time, How easy do you transition into patient? I think it was really hard at the beginning,
to do therapy to get our licence or you are and yeah, and I and I think it's interesting because Europe, in turn, that you don't know anything and so you're very much the patient is just going to therapy but later you do know alive. It's almost like, I think a magician and you know saying like now: you're gonna go home of a directorate for this magician. You kind of backseat drive a little bit, or at least I did at first. They think that performance of aspect we were talking about earlier is that you want to appear really too especially because you're a therapist, but that's not the purpose of why you're there that's not going to help you, and so I would one why's. He asked me that questioner. I know why he's asking me that question, and so I mean to give this answer because I know, if I give this other answer, he's gonna think this, but I'm not really like that. He's not gonna know that, because often we all think we're work. credible, unique in their like. Yes, yes, yes, I'm exhibiting all those behaviors, but I'm this rare case where our agenda, but all those behaviors, but I d, I dont- have this condition. If it he sorrow,
I've had therapist come to me for therapy to so I think that ultimately you're just a person in the room, one of the things that so I think counter intuitive- is that a lot of people I wanna go to the therapies to has the most experienced the most training or they they practice with this modality. That would be helpful for me, but what helps most in therapy is your relationship with your thoughts. study after study shows that your relationship with your therapist matters more than all of those things not the other things don't matter, but that the relationship matters the most and if you really do have a strong relationship with your therapist other stuff, goes out the window in all the performative stuff. All the eleventh hour passed. I don't want to really fall apart. In here you do so, would you recommend that people, you know gone a few dates? I always say that are first, their possession is a consultation. You know it's an opportunity for you to sit with the therapies, see
it feels like, and when you leave ask yourself did, I feel understood. Was this person easy to talk to and if I think, both of those things happened, I would go back for a second session, stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare we are supported by hell of fresh with Hallo fresh America's number one meal kit get easy, seasonal recipes and pre measured ingredients delivered right to your door. All you have to do is cook and enjoy, which is what Mamma get at last they Monica. Would you get into pulled pork, bs, dough, oh Paul, that poor add peppers and it had a little kick to it. Really really nice charred corn, elote bowl. It was with farro, spiced, pepitas and chipotle lime dressing. It was delicious, but, more importantly, I felt great after eating it
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now Monica this is your favor. I love framework. I really do it must be so could be the look at the photo with all the different frames on. Yes, you can actually tat like tested out before you buy it and the hard thing about ordering friends. You don't know what's going on pair with the photo get started today, go to framebridge dot com and use promo code Dax you'll save an additional fifteen percent off your first order. Just go to framebridge dot com, promo code, Dax, Framebridge come from Codex a lot of people. I think have this idea that if you go into therapy for a first session your committed. If you go back and you're not, you know, it's not leg in this old model of you're gonna go into therapy. You're gonna talk about your childhood at nausea and you're, never gonna leave. That's that's not. I think what modern day therapy as although I have felt like
This person knows so much about me now to start over feels dark. That's almost like saying I mean a bad relationship and I need help trying to find a new boyfriend history and he knows what I like my pizza and we have the same network, the county. I want to start that all over here, but that's not a good reserves that Europe can bear is working in a resolute mother, child religious hook in this. But on that about the relationship with do have opinions about Malcolm male female male, all these kind of things, because I went to coed meetings forever and a a and I max amount out of it, and then I've been going to a stag meeting for like the last twelve beers, and I get so much more out of it, because I am just endlessly in need of female approval. That, I will be in performance mode- I get to distracted by it and so for me, it's very helpful to just be wrong man. And I wonder, do you have any opinions about whether people should see the same sex or an opposite saxer?
Clearly whether they're going to be able to be themselves with that person engender certainly plays into it. So it is eight, so does you know all kinds of like the way the person dresses or the references that they make is? Sometimes you want some very similar to you. Sometimes you want someone not similar all to you so think it depends. But I will say there is a difference men and women and how they interact with me, which is that when men come into therapy, often they'll say something like I've, never told anyone this before and then what they tell me feel so mild to me right. You don't like really that I feel so. I feel so much for them that they ve been holding this thing in that they really don't have any. that they can really open up to and women will come in and they'll say. I've never told anyone this before, except for
other my sister my background, so they told like it, I have full of people, but to them it feels like they haven't, told anybody. So think of man. Are you know they really, Joe in general, have as much of a group and I I really want that to change, because men have the same concerns that women do about. You know, am I a good parent done with my marriage. How do I feel about my worth? deal with. My parents approve a little lack of approval. You know who am I at midlife? Who am I? twenties, and what does that mean and do I have purpose all these yeah either all gonna universal elements, but you're right just at least conventionally males aren't you know. Sharing all that much just as deep. They have these deep concerns and once they open up there, Matters now shut the fuck. I really like seeing men in therapy, because I think they're so interesting there now this isn't it
question, but I'm going to ask you cuz. I thought it was soon as I was reading about you falling in love with any patient not fallen in love with any patience, and I don't mean like if you acted, but I mean such an intimate thing. I can see myself like falling over someone yeah, it's a really intense relationship. I have certainly loved my patients so factory in the book? There's a patient that I said I love you too. She says I love you to me, and I say I love you back because I don't want to stand up professional ceremony and be that kind of brick wall. I think it's really important just be human in the room, and so you know I could have said like a very therapy like thing back to her, but I did love her back, and so I said I love you too. I like them. I did feel that way about her. I think that there are times when, certainly just like with anyone in the world. You might find your patient attractive, but you get supervision
art in a way to fall in love with your patience because of the role that you're in with them. There's something not very sexy. copying and kind of the expert role with somebody for me, but I could see where it would be appealing in that The weight of those conversations when you're in a relationship is different. If you and your I don't know what your status is, but at my wife- and I are talking about something, there's such weight to it, for obvious reasons- and I will often too to a female friend and I'll hear her say the exact same stuff. But of course is I have no baggage attached to it and I can just experience it in a different.
Because I'm not carry normally on value Jim right, but you have to remember: I'm not sharing my life with my patient, so I don't have that experience of. Oh it so easy to talk to this personal versus my partner, but they have it with me. Yes, so he asked is what we call romantic transference, all blue, which is when people have romantic feelings for you and not, though, express it lots of different ways: Lake the person named John in the book, the one who did come. He has hooker certain times. Heat he'd make these very sexual last comments that were insults, but they were very much about my appeal. Hence in our like others, your fuck me she is now in others, quotas rings. What is you're like a media? Yes, I shall reaction. Your temper me. Are you just bulletproof? Can you wrote that? Are you like? Oh, my goodness, their return at certain times when he would say things and I didn't know what to make of it in the moment, and so I don't say any
until I really know how I feel about it or what it means I'll confront him about it- I'm not just going to let it slide, I'm going to talk about Well, you have to have that awareness. That of this person is in very desperate position in their acting in a very and await its inexcusable. Yet I can look past it because I see this greater need ray. I think that people's behaviour as a way of protecting themselves from something Cabal unthinkable anything out in the world. It's important for all of us to remember that that you know when we, when people act a certain way, we write them off so quickly and we don't think about. Maybe why they're acting the way that they're acting, I will see to that it doesn't
be so over, like with John, like when I see a lot of couples who my practice, and sometimes the guy in the cup all will be attracted to me, because I dont react to him the way his wife does, because a modest? Why lowers why fight big paid is asked him to do so you know, I think I think it's. Those are all things that that get talked about in one of those I think the beautiful news about therapy is that nothing gets swept under the rug in a good way You pace yourself like so when he says, are you wearing your fuck me shoes? That's a bit What the hell do that he was an extreme example. I even more. That is where that, like a like a guy in a couple, might you know like if I have an individual session with each of them? Sometimes I will you know: he'll make a comment, you know I wish that I could find someone like
it might not even be bad over if it has been that over, but sometimes it's more subtle and- and you talk about that- Is your game plan, though, at the in the extreme example of the shoes. Is your game plan like I'm going to let that go for and then I'm gonna bring that up. Let's say next session. When he's not going to be triggered and get defensive like we're out of that zone, why clearleaf even said that he was probably feeling threatened or vulnerable that he was about to? It was probably protective thing right. So is it like a chow like what might get as a freak out I dont addressing ban. I wait to their cause two hours later. We talked about it and I just wonder is that part of the strategy in the beginning, really working on forming a relationship with that person, and so there are certain things that you're gonna kind of weight on. Until you feel like they trust you more, but by the time those kinds of things were happening that
I meant with John I'm. I confronted him in the moment right. Been anyone. You said, no, I'm not going to treat you. Yes, really. rarely very rarely. You know it's more because I don't think I can help that Bray. So I dont think I'm the right person to help them. I definitely don't want to waste their time. I don't let them to struggle anymore than their struggle ear, and so I might say I think this person might be better for you. This friend of mine who said that a couple different times? They recognize immediately that the the patient's triggers all of their size like the weather, it's that they're identical to their mother, something and they themselves have had to acknowledge. I'm I'm a bad v because I'm going to be in a zone right, sometimes you know we'll walk in there, basically wearing a sign on their head. That says, like I, remind you of your mother, a high speed or whatever it might be, whatever your trigger, as you know, an end.
You have to be self aware enough to say you know: I'm not going to be able to help this person. I think sometimes you don't know those things until you really get into the material with them? And that's why we have consultation group now during the book, where you see me in my consultation group, I get together with colleagues, went too weak and we talk about our case says people do the less. I think a lot of people think well you're alone in the room with these people and then you go out into the world, Then you never get to talk about this with anyone right now. You guys me and you do a group thing right. So you talk about you know, what's going on with your patients and if there's a specific patient that you're struggling with or you're feel like you're, not making progress or this something happened. You know it's interesting, as in other jobs and people say like oh yeah, you did a great job and we want to hear that either accept any good. Your consultation group
no no one thing like a minute twenty two that was a great intervention. Ebby of that will, in fact I'd almost argue the sign of your successes they deserve. You had some born right, so a worse business model and ever but it, but we really were not there to keep you they're, like your children, you raise your children so that they won't need you in the same way. Any more and the same thing happens here aware in a we want you to be able to, need us any more to internalize what you ve learned. You know where we see the insight is the booby prize of there which means that you can have all the inside in the world. But if you're not making changes out in the world, the inside is useless. So we hold people very accountable for what happens between sessions because we don't want them to be there forever. So we say things like what happened this week, We talked about that last week and if someone says now, I know I get into those arguments with my wife and then they go home
the exact same thing for sure it doesn't matter that you know why. I know why you have to actually change their behaviour. Does it makes it worse because I've had those revelations and then I just continue my shitty behaviour and unlike fuck now I'm even know I'm doing it, and here I am still doing it in that kind of brings me. Don't there's a phrase we that we really liked on another podcast, he said, I think it's a lot easier to act, your way into thinking, different than think your way into indifferent and that's kind of in a thing as well. I get into action, so I wonder, being It is a lot of talking about thinking. How do you implement action, and do you have an opinion on that? Do you think you can think your way into better thinking? I think that change, is really hard and if you keep thinking about change, you're, never going to change. Change is really hard because Change involves loss. Even really positive change involves ask you how you lose the familiar, so even if the familiar with utter miserable you still
what it is. If you change you is like going to a foreign country like you, I don't know what the rules are here. I don't know how to act here the unknown is scary people cling to you know the but they know even if it really destructive beer. Well, I have a theory that often, when both are falling in love and putting air quotes up there really just seen something familiar. It feels familiar in their mistaking that for love, brat, we merrier unfinished business Mary. I Finally, did I make my mother? I mean you, could carbon copy what we do and I think it would happens as we think that were marrying the opposite. So there's a woman in the book, one of the pay Charlotte, and she comes to me she's in her twenties, and she keeps dating all these guys that
it always ends badly and it eventually she starts hooking up with a guy in the waiting room and she supposedly season therapy. So she thinks that he's kind of a step up that you, don't least he's introspective and he's working on his issues. Cuz he's in therapy cuz he's in the waiting room with his girlfriend and, of course, he's the same. Thing that she's always dating and it's you know it's because there's something so familiar. He might look very different on the outside, but radar for that familiar sense of home look familiar taller than rang, even though we think oh, I want to get away from that thing. Oh yeah, we could have the express goal of distancing ourselves from our childhood parents all that stuff in yet we just are drawn right to the flame of the exact same thing right as we see that we say come closer com, but we tell ourselves Otis persons completely different from anything I experienced. That would hurt me and yet what you're asking to come closer is the
very thing that will guarantee your own unhappiness. Elizabetta gets so fascinating to me. So I'll tell you buy out like crazy breakthrough. I had one time which was as dating a gale. We got in a fight over the phone. She the way in another area. I got this immediate and I got horny as what I got. I got straight horny and I had the impulse to text this girl I hooked up with before, and I just for whatever reason had a moment of clarity where I was like that's too coincidental that I just felt power Now, I'm horny, unlike my brain, is that fucking smart in its operating on a level of unconscious of like how powerful is that subconscious it was drug, though see that's the thing. So how do you self sit so had happens? Is you feel This regulation it and then you wonder, regulating our how to how do we deal with that? Well, you need your drug and you know it's a different drugs, so it could be sacks. It could be food, it could be the internet. We in one of my colleagues called the internet and the most effective tool
term, nonprescription painkiller out there over the growth initiative or just like get on twitter or beyond. You know just to surf the internet and in this kind of days, state for hours would they need to invest their trial. Rarely is someone conch know they're. Not it then that's what's mine blowing to me is that there is some layer, that's operating so protectively over you that you're, mostly unaware of unless you get an outsider, to help. You discover that right right, and so we always think driving the car but we are not in a so. I always want people to think about like who's driving the car right now, who's driving the car yeah back to the parent thing where someone will like replicate, relationship that they had with their parent right in there they're completely unaware of it is the theory that the subconscious thinks that if they get the
region of this relationship that they wanted to double somehow heal the other version from childhood right exactly so called repetition, compulsion, repetition compulsion and what it means is that we keep repeating the same circumstance over and over thinking. This time it will work out, better, What time it will go. The way I wanted to go this time. I will get love instead of whatever You got the latter dyer yeah this time it will be seen heard understood cared for its. I mean nothing. The spiral out on this budget. What part your brain is? Do we know that without your awareness is so hard to comprehend? They're all these sort of neural pathways that that were developed in childhood and what happens? Is people don't realize that there's a stimulus right leg
Oh look, there's a person who seems really cool and then what happens is then they hurt you for the very first time like everything's all grade and you're in that sort of insane. You know falling in love. In fact, only those who do you for you right and then something happens in euros of that person is not like me. That person disagrees with me. Oh not one were not fused were not merged and then all of a sudden, you have this neural pathways. What do what happened to cut it travels literally on this pathway in your brain of o, I remember what that feels like you. Don't know whether that just normal that you guys are different, as you should be two separate people or whether it's like that traumatic thing that happened or that upsetting thing that happened when you were younger, and so that's where you know if it travels to quickly on that neural pathway, you're, just like speed on the highway and you can reflect on it. But if you can take a breath and if you can reflect on it, then you might respond differently. Why things the huge Journaling in general, is that you can. I have been able to.
Fire patterns that I don't think otherwise I would have actually ever discovered general than on their or in the nice? Was there be serve really wonderful tool that same ways that you can point out? Local? Did you notice yeah? You can point up people's blind spots and, and so much better than people in the outside world can freely, because when people in the outside world are pointing out you're blind spots, partly they want to help but partly it's because they have an ulterior motive and the ulterior motive is, if you stop being so difficult with this way, they are acting miles It will be easier for sure now. As a therapist. I only have fifty minutes with them a week, so I don't have an ulterior motive, so I'm tell men because a genuinely want to help them see something that they're not already seeing an usually it's a blind spot that leads to a pattern that their enacting in all areas of their lives professionally personally and how they talk to themselves were so unkind to ourselves.
others monologue going on in our heads that if we said that to our friends we would not have any friends, I gotta go Seymour, I'm like to show someone just show yourself. Half of the kindness you show strangers are people in AA or whatever we understand it, but they don't take any steps or maybe emotionally they don't understand. My therapist says that all the time I know you understand all of this intellectually you're beating me to the punch intellectually, but you are not understanding an emotionally. So then, do you give them at tools or what's the transition for them when they're like okay, I get it, but I'm not doing it part of it is that the relationship that happens in the therapy room is a small like a mic some of the relationships at the person has outside, so whatever they do outside
if there's a real bond between therapists, you know if the if their stakes for that person that there, if the person who comes a therapist, really cares about the therapy and the therapist they're gonna, the act out in the way that they act out many outside world too, and in those moments it's about having things happen, best moments in the room, so that there's an emotional experience in the room. So it's not about just yakking away and talking about things. It's about feeling sad feeling. Angry hating the therapists loving that there are pissed Ino, getting frustrated with the therapist feeling misunderstood by the therapist feeling cared for by the therapist. All of those things will create an emotional experience that will help you to integrate all of the kind of insights than that you're talking about. But you have to have that emotional experienced to carry out to the outside world mode.
Is there any element of it? That is like the movie version we've all seen like. Do you have literal breakthroughs? Were the thing cracks the identity cracks doll that does that happen yeah? So that's why I wanted to show these for very different patients, because you can see that in for some of them change happens when I like to say, as you know gradually and then suddenly for others, it's all gradual for others. It's just well here's this thing and is very I didn't you know like most things in life. I think you know there are times when you're making a lot of progress in there times when it takes a little while cuz they're stuck on something that's making it tv show at the book and one of the things that's really important to me The tv version is that the therapist is just a person. I think most of the shows that are about therapy or have a therapist on them. It's so much about
cliches of therapy and even though the shows are really good shows, and they think that what I really want to do is make it this character, who happens to be a therapist. This person could be any other profession, but you get to go inside her world because she has this access to people's lives in a way that most people don't so I think that you know whatever the the media's portrayal of these sudden break through his hunger in, I think in the book. It's a much more realistic view of how people change in their significant change in the book, but that's how it really happens as opposed to the Hollywood version of how it happens, hot topic. Do you lose word play here? Is it hard to stay patient with your patients? I only deal with people in AA. They're there, because there's a life threatening in general there's a life threatening issue. So we do not have time for you to have a breakthrough. We don't have eight months for you to come to terms and learn to be honest with yourself for doing inventory it you got to do it now or you're going to fucking die in the steaks are such that we
are generally very abrupt and your meeting with your sponsor is going to go right right right. I did the same thing. That's fucking, bullshit! Now that's going to be so that's the model I come from, and I just when I think of doing the job you do. I go man I don't know if the patient's two inch along with somebody, because the stakes are so dire in a good slowly get there. I think that the stakes are very high because we don't get time back. You know, I think it's really important for people to think about death, a lot of sense kind of morbid that you're really glad I'm not your therapists, because I really feel like we're all gonna and that's really important to think about this, a good thing to think about, because you don't get today back, and so I don't want people to take a long time to feel or to live their lives in a different way or to navigate through life more smoothly. I want that to happen really
yeah. You get one trip, get one trip and if you take too long, you've wasted all that time and you've suffered unnecessarily. So I do look at it like each situation is the stakes are very high, but I also think that if somebody is really defended around something that, if you go into soon without walls going to go higher we'll take longer, because now you ve got another Walter scale. On top of that, you know I used to play trust as a kid. In one of the things I loved about it was you have to think. Like hand moves ahead, and he think the same thing is true when you're a therapist that if I say this in a float this out there we'll see how they respond. I don't know what move they're going to make time to see you they're going to make an army to adjust based on that move, and sometimes I'm gonna back off and I'm gonna hold that another time, and I know you know I'm going to know when that time comes and I'm storing that up another time when I say you know: okay, I'm going to go and I'm going to actually move three other moves ahead, because this person responded this way.
is the real art in your job throttle response like how far to push how soon how lay all that stuff I'd. Imagine that's what delineates between good and okay therapist, text everybody does so you know. Sometimes you realize how I push too hard. Sometimes you think of you know I I didn't push hard enough, but you get next session to other. Herr that or to move forward. If you felt like you, didn't really tackle some food, you find that you make amends division, sometimes law. The time all that's wonderful, while the two we call it rupture in repair- and I think that so important, just in general in life that so many people in life didn't have a good experience of what we call rupture in repair witches, there's some kind of brake right, like you got into an argument with somebody, or and ship dissolved, or you know our relationship. We know something happens between people and our relationship and they don't know how to repair it with each other and they don't have any good modeling on how to do that, and so you get that modeling
therapy of you. Cuz, usually were so ashamed. If we did something wrong like as people, we don't know how to apologize in a way that is a genuine apology not going to apologize to you, so you can make me feel better what I did and how does the other person, except my apology without then re blaming me yeah you're right. You did that it was horrible yachts, not helpful either here, because we all have friends who have had many follows right like I will you, over France, like they ve, had three best friends. They don't talk, I always want to just go like it's some the regulation, the common denominator. We always say you know if a fight breaks out every by your going to Yes, yes I'm sure you dare we are.
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EL, why W P, L, L, dotcom sly, stacks kodaks for fifteen percent off your test, Everley well at home, lab test your answers, your way now couples therapy is really fascinating to me. I've been in couples therapy with my wife pretty much since we started dating and Even I who, I think, approaches some honesty with myself I want to win those sessions and I have to imagine it's pretty universal for, like both parties to be looking for a victory like yep. On my way, we just showed her and now she's busy no part of this argument. How do you combat that? Is that really common is very common in the beginning, I give people a hand out to read for both of them
read before they come in about how I do couples therapy, which is basically the premise is that you're coming a couples therapy to change yourself? you're coming to see what changes you can make. You can't control anything. The other person does so that you can influence what the other person does by changing your behavior. So if you are both coming because you want to change yourselves, that's what we're going to work on and when they come in with that frame so much more gets accomplished all I bet because they know from the very beginning that whatever happens, they're gonna have to change their response to what the other person is doing. They're going to have to hear the other person differently. You know so many times when people say he never list or she never listened to me. I would say to them: how well do you listen to him or her? So many of the things that we complain about with the other person are things that were doing ourselves. It just looks different. The presentation is different.
Yeah I mean we all are kind of innately egocentric rhyming we can't escape. That is sentient beings. I was just the other day like we go cycles for my wife works, a ton and I take care of the kids and now currently I'm working a ton and she's taking care of the kids, and when I was taking care of the kid every time she came mark. I was dying for her to say: hey thanks for taking care that kid's. While I work right- and I just busted me self. The other day I came home and I was like why can't she Like you so tired, you been working so hard, haven't you and I'm like. Oh, I just flip just like this. Even though I have even had the first hand experience most people don't get, first hand experience where their trading rules like that, but even me, whose trading rules, I'm only thinking, what I need in that moment in its is so damn hard to recognise your partners a fellow It means a lot to yeah and I think so often we feel like they should be telepathic be known the maid. Obviously they should be able to see how tired I am the ices. They should appreciate me
Celebrate me taking a break if they really care. If they really loved me, they would do x, Y or Z. becomes a weird tests for people write, it become some somehow there measuring their love with how intuitive the other person is. I dont want to have to tell you. I need this right and that such a young lady to be that's when we get very young and that's That'S- that's the child part of us, and we forget that as adults we can. To communicate with the other person and they will likely meet our needs. Yes, if they're worth the partner. They generally will dry, though, make an effort, but what happens in couples? Therapy is the couples come in, and you know the they talk about complaints a lot and and a lot of times. The complaints are actually veiled compliment. So those there's something like your name. Her here, you're, not you know like or at night. You know, you're always on the internet, and I want you to come to bad and the others
Why were king and you know, do you want a roof over their head over your head, but it's a compliment. The persistent here's a compliment is I miss you yesterday, I miss you. I love you and I miss you and if I didn't give a shit, I wouldn't be concerned about this bad write. The presentation of like you know just knocking them, but but what's under there is what's really important, is paying miss you and often what both people want. The same thing that they both are longing for connection, but they don't see that they see the other person is the enemy yeah I like taking something from that yeah, that's a real easy pattern to fall into. Is interesting, even as you say it, you really fit in your purse. more than any. Maybe you see the power of language Is this really how you phrase those things right? It's it's really about saying when you do blank. I feel this way to make me feel this way
It's so easy to go to anger. Anger is the easiest way to kind of soothe ourselves, but what's under the anger, are the really important feelings like? I feel sad I feel anxious I feel neglected, say I feel unsafe. I feel unseen, I feel in her. I feel invisible in open step we just lash out and that actually exacerbates the problem, because then the person goes farther away. This out, I want to be around that so set of come closer its oh, I gotta get away from that or with any German. My identity were in trouble because you're painting me out to be somebody I know I'm not like. I would never intentionally Can you feel any of these ways? I met a man now, I'm interested defending my identity, as opposed to trying to help you feel better, which should be my goal. I think that, instead of trying to make the other person feel better, it's important to think up
hearing the other person making sure that they feel understood. You don't have to agree with them, and sometimes people confuse that they think. If I say I understand how you're feeling, even though I p dot M Italy disagree with it or I see it differently, rather those persons feelings are argue with someone's feelings. That's how they? feel the feelings are not right or wrong. They may be different from your feelings. You might see the situation differently, but you need to understand that that person feels hurt or they feel in that moment? Even if you see the situation that hurt her or him differently you and that's where people get tripped up, they feel like, but but I dont know why you're hurt, because I didn't intend that you shouldn't be heard yes would like, but the person is yeah yeah like it or not. That's where we're at and do you have to police her own bias when you're. I just imagine if I was a couples there. And I was listening to men and women talk.
check. My bias into siding with the man usually there's, there's one person who likes to present themselves as the same one at the very beginning, and usually the person who's more distressed, brought them in and said. We need to go you're, not finding that it fought that these fall into some male female pattern that you yourself identify with being the female in it consistency do it. I don't really identify by gender. So much I identify more by what they're bringing in and sometimes yes, I identify more with a certain person in yeah, but I think that once you get to know both people, there will be certain sessions where I really feel. Oh, I really and where that person is coming from more than this person to have to work really hard to understand the other person
send in the next session or a month later or whatever it is. I might feel that way about the other person in a couple Dear you, you two are on this journey with them and you're open to understanding them better or worse than you did initially or the other person that they're bringing from their past and kind of you know conflating with the current relay. And then what are the things that are really going on in this relationship? But I really want them to take responsibility for their own roles in what's not working for them. because you have now seen just such a wide spread of types of people and p and we talked so much on the show about binary and he's ideas of seeing things in black and white and good and bad. So, what's your opinion on like good and bad people? Do you thing exists or no have you seen a person that you're like that?
bad, that's a bad person. I saw someone who killed someone. and he was a real sweetheart. He was a real sweetheart like underneath it all. He was a real sweetheart, so I don't have to like what he did right. I think that people do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons, and I dont excuse those things, but I think that when babies are born, I dont think that there's a baby that poor in that Harley bad. I think that genetics environment, all of those things shape who we are and who we become, but I don't think that how we acted the whole story, another question? I would ask if you have to please yourself and again. This is all on me projecting, because I've been number for awhile, because I sponsor dudes and because, more importantly, I really get self esteem out of being someone. People ask for advice. It's very
easy for me to protect a facade, because I like that- and I get a steam from that, and I really have to go out of my way to go while you're still very fucked up. Ray other human being, and you need it keep reminding yourself to own that that's not going to come at the price of people, not wanting your advice or whatnot. Do you, USA? Europe is in you as a real human being. Who has relationships? Do you have to kind of police yourself in that manner? That was the reason that I included myself as the fifth patients in the book, because Originally I thought what I'll write about these patients, because I really felt the book is about the condition, and I felt like there's no better way to communicate that than to let people see what I see and to let them see themselves in these stories, because I think that it helps reflective essay. Will I do that or I'm like that person and help them to see how they might make changes in their own life? So that's what I hope the book does, but then I thought I was going
something in my own life, and I really felt like it would be disingenuous to pretend that I was the a share in the expert, an egg- and I wasn't a human- also bright and I felt like it was really important for people to see that there's this other side too, and I think that going back to sort of the t show. I think that either of these two trucks that I think therapist in the media, one is for the brick wall, the person. You know you don't see any person, and I think the other one is the hot mass re like the but the person whose just in a completely new, no crossing all these boundaries. he's an unknown either of those really reflects just what normal therapists are like they're, just people who go through things that people go through, but also there's a chapter of the book called embarrassing public encounters which is about where what happens. When you run into people. The world. You know I talk about, I run into my patients on the world where they would, rather that they haven't seen me,
but there are times when I hear it's embarrassing for me to you know once was I was trying on broad in if a department for that I was in addressing Rome and the woman whose having who is like it out here, is the miracle broad. The thirty four a man like me was right. There is really mortifying are male or female vision. You met female yeah. You know I've been on the beach in a bikini with my family and and there's a patient, and it's really awkward yeah. So I don't acknowledge the other person unless they acknowledge may because, whatever their with might say well who's that person might not want to say that's my therapist right. I remember. Once I was walking with when I was newly sing. A boyfriend and- and I was walking down the street with him in one of my patients, who had just had a session when he was telling about all of his sexual fantasies, came draw
king by I know more about that guy sexual fantasies that I do about this again. You're a human I ain't your a human being your ear years, subject to all the same things that we all are and even though it's in a semi clinical situation, you two must be astounded. Sometimes I mean there must be some part of you. That is, needed because it's a very, very privileged position. you're in see here, people's true thought, desires fantasies, like you just said, it's it's okay to say it's tasty! Isn't it I mean that's a fun the job? Is it not pausing, because that's such an interesting question ever Think of it. That way, even though you would think that that it would be, I think that, because you're having such a real relationship,
that person and you're talking about these kind of things week after week, but nothing feels shocking. Nothing feels juicy. It just feels like yeah there's a The thing about them, but I didn't know, there's this other way that they think about this, for this other feeling that they have this fantasy. They have, but its general not shocking. Among the things that are shocking are there's a revelation in the book that I don't want to give away where the character that I was talking about, you know reveal something about his life that I did not see coming at all and apply to send its it's it's the mother of all platform. It was so shocking that I just I E. I remember that session even now that our member, the way I felt I remember the way he looked around- you know how things are heightens yeah, and I just I remove For that such I'm never forget that session. Yeah, I didn't Fraser greatly I will be listening to someone share in a meeting, and I think boy, I'm so lucky to
in a situation where I'm exposed to this. This is a bit like. I said it's a very prive. scenario by which I find myself in and I feel grateful for it. I feel grateful that I've found something that gives me no access to people and not the god we're all going to grocery store with. cherish that and I'm grateful for that nothing. I guess that's what I meant yeah, it's it's the opposite of Instagram yeah and even you know- and people do these Instagram revelations like. Let me tell you this very personal thing that I feel so brave to be able to tell our view rangers that I don't know out on is to grow in. I think that's helpful in some ways because it normalizes people's lives for a lot of people, but I also feel like it's very different, looking in someone's eyes face to face in the therapy room, so they can go
get out with someone you an individual, not with social media, someone who matters to them out in the world that they can have this much deeper relationship with that they can say this is who I am. Can you understand? Can you see me love me. Can you know me in this way? I think we all want that yeah there's an accountability. There isn't accountability. That has in writing when and that's why people lie in therapy because you know they feel like they're, going to disappoint the therapist. If they and they were going to do something and then they didn't do it. You know or think did something that they know. Let's say that they ve been making progress on something and then they back slid, and then they did. This thing that they haven't done in a really long time, their embarrassed to tell the therapist or couples a lot of times you know they don't want to say. Oh, I did not tell the story what their partner did, but they won't talk about
it had yet in all, do something even like even more embarrassing, were I'll. Tell you ninety percent of it in the night. percent is so dangerous I've decided. I mean hypothetical I'd, say: I'm a sex addict I'm going to tell you yeah, I hooked up with someone last night. Never some reason, I'm just going to say I did wear a condom is like wait, a minute, we're almost all the way there. Why are you putting on the brakes and then all these little levels or trying to hold onto of light in the in its own definitions of what's unacceptable are acceptable and I'm leaving One thing that, for me would Tipp it. If you are telling me all that's credit, really reckless or something yeah. That's that's all about shame in a seat. Are all about shame. Corleone, called secret psychic poisoned, I think they really are, there's a difference between secrecy and privacy, so we all need privacy in our lives meeting with our partners. They don't need to know every single thing about our lives. We need those private spaces, but secrets are things that your
holding back because you feel shame around it and I can get really toxic and they can fester. So one of the steps is making amends unless to do so would hurt or injure the person. And so is there a little sliver of grey where it might be a secret, but it might not be because you feel shame about it, but because you've, the term That would not be used for helpful to someone else to know. That's a hard question I think in general people know when you have a You might not know what the secret is. People imagine the secrets are so easy to keep because you haven't told anyone, or maybe you've told one person is very trustworthy, but I think that people can viscerally feel when there is a space. That's under something sitting in the air between you, specially and couples parents and children too. You know, there's some family secret,
that the parents feel like what I dont want the child to know this about uncle Mort, be covered, my mother were right about that. But you know I don't want aunt em too now I want them to know this thing about. You know. There's a winter about alcohol is right like I don't want them to know that I had a drink problem, because then they'll think this sore whatever, whatever the family secret is but don't know, don't know something, and it's much worse if they have to kind of piece it together and find out later because they always cunning knew. There was something that was being that was unsaid. On that to me seems to be like the real mortal sin of all of it is allowing someone else to feel crazy. The ads gas lighting yes gasoline and feels very, very dark to be doing that,
you know in against shame leading to some other things, so I have compassion for, but at the same time allowing someone to feel crazy seems like a particular kind of cruel yeah, I think, with the shame, to a lot of people worried with their therapist that they're going to bore them, and so you know They they feel like they're, really want to entertain them. They're going to talk about these things. He look after happen this week, but you know it's really boring is when people are. letting you see who they really are. That's what's boring. So I'm going to be fascinated by you if you show me who you really are, but if you are kind, like look over here. Look over here look over here and going on tangent after tangent, I'm going to be so bored, but if, Just show me who you are you're going to be inherently interesting. That's really kind of the key to be an artist to me at the writing things acting in things. All these things will listen lorry Eve
a lot of your time. You're very fascinating and I am not shocked at all that. Maybe you should talk to. Someone is a smash success. the tv show. When will that come to be at the same table it sir. It's been written right now, so stay tuned, have you listen nowhere. Where should we begin I love after proud tat. We had her on and on that path. Cast me is unbelievable. It's like watching a true crime show he asked if something beyond just couples therapy about it, it is really intriguing yeah, I'm actually about to launch a pot cast all know, but it's it's a little bit different from that. This is gonna, be for I heart with Katy Kirk producing, follow her with a co host. Guy went shoe. You may know from he's also therapies, Esther Pearls Office made ogre and he's done some really great TED talks about how to get over a broken heart and had a takeover emotional lives, and I'm the dear therapists colonist for the Atlantic.
He is going to be writing a advice calling for tat and we're gonna, come together and do something a little different. Around advice in art I look forward to that. Well again, thank you for Cross in the great divide between the West side in the east. You're such a pleasure to talk to you like you, for how I use a therapist now, can I really drive to the west side? Yeah I'd have to be sign of another addiction by drive the west, we're coming in and everyone should check out. Maybe you should talk to someone and look for Oliver Fun projects coming out after that, thanks. So much and now my favorite part of the show the fact check with my soulmate and Monica Padman, Lori Gottlieb Lori Gottlieb Gloria Hartlieb.
Hallelujah Hallelujah eating almond butter with vanilla all members uniquely bad to listen to people eat. I think I've been even really bad when you up, I think, because it sticky he had sticky gaslights extra always have the sum I lie to myself. Then all you know see me, though it's a moment and size of models can put on my mouth and gonna. Let it dissolve appear now now here resist doing and now here it here. If you hear it so we'll stop for now. Ok, Laurie. I have no doubt that I know you're going to over twelve year still you're the paste lorry happen
wanting to come on the show for awhile, which I M really realise the act, but we haven't read her book yet so we we hadn't done are due diligence yet and then our and a me answer, Hansen God it for me for my birthday aim and she was low. Thirty second birthday correct and end. She was in love with the bark and I was like alcohol of Aimee loves it then I'm sure it's great she bouchers yes and now dying to read it and also what I said, and that is really true. It is like all the re- oh yeah, areas of racial reader. By the way she is yeah very admirable. It is and see him. I was free, yes, really really interesting long. I love when you can use throw we had this would doktor Alex resulting in his throat hypotheticals at them in their watch them work through
through that psychology lens and I love it and stuff that was really interesting. I thought, shoes, I'm out change and saying, like it's really hard, even when it's a good change, like all dangers, always hard, even if something good happening to you, because its unfamiliar raw going from something that you're used to do something completely in the dark about which I like too, because I feel like people when they have a good choice. And their public sperience anxiety and but they dont feel like they're allowed the experience anxiety, because something good year will you're always looking at it in the rear view mirror and later you can make sense of it. So, like this show had chips been a huge hit, I wouldn't have the show I, like this show more than I would like to have directed a second ships, but in the transition between that and this I think my
silver and now in the rearview mirror I got lucky. so we may now. Ok, sir! It's ok but allowed through. I just mean like if you like, let's say like I booked a show tomorrow right, I would be like obvious cited. Should I be anxious and nervous to and like probably sad and some like, we, I think you feel a lot of emotions when you experience change, but you feel like you can't if it's a good thing and I think we lie to ourselves all the time. So it's like in your mind, you're like oh. I just got a book a show if I book the Show Party time YAP, but then you look at me like. Oh now, I gotta go be good in a regular, do as good as they did. Not our dishes announced another thing right, yeah, there's always something, and then you do that. Even if you do great then it's like will, I hope blank like you just gear its art in our brain rights. Constantly,
calibrated here. Still my love that even want to deal with their lines. I yes, it's ok to have it and recognize it and say it. If you need to say- and I feel like bad about the fact that you have some nay get a feeling even about somebody managerial and want exactly later, it's normal and it's because of that unfamiliar to familiar switch, thou dim in the third. I got it on the third time new did, but I had to strikes and if I ever get. If I didn't do that this last time open out, we wouldn't have been friends. Oh my goodness, which reminds me. I have to tell everyone, oh h, and our black called oh, they did. They called you. I have to update,
because it's the responsible thing to do right that they called me a couple days ago and they apologize to feel good. It felt no cause. You were like, oh they just how do well, I didn't feel it. I was very appreciative of was like that's really nice, they offered this child. I said I appreciate that I will not be returning. They know that they cause they heard the they said. We heard you had a customer service issue anyway and she was lovely and kind and responsible for the
not responsible and it was nice, and I said I understand- and I know that when companies get huge like the like this one is that there is gonna be things it fall through the cracks it just was so many times, and you know but anyway, so that's the updates, so they called oh but the big takeaway was like well. No one is else is getting this phone call, and I bet like I bet a million people it's all there did you at any point say hey. I appreciate the phone call so much have you been a cost. Go because there are huge and somehow there doing in her fight. Where do you should get someone on the phone from cars go and ask what the hell they're doing for dinner?
secret saw, or I did get a little. I was the one point during their interview inside the others. During the conversation I did get nervous because she said that she attract a couple of the people I spoke to. You do get turned over one phone call to a body, not a manager right. I told her about that. And so she said the inner there talking to them Oh boy, I do not want anyone to get over this, but- there's like no we're just retraining like that is good range. Raining needs to happen. It does, but Remind me of my driver and boss and remember that the t shirts I was telling my driver and he's from Charlestown he's like a b real curious to find out who this kid is
no, no, no! You don't need to find out who the kid is. I don't want anything to them. This person yeah, I dont, want to be a part of everyone's following anyone's lie here: someone not only almost ruined mine rise, so it would be. I guess tit for tat, but good up did though, anyway, that's the end. That's, alas, him I'll be speaking about them. incredible turn in the in the plot. Sure right, Easton assist, cease and desist, not cease and desist. This law will cease. is it ceased or seized like cease and desist in the cyst and cease and desist?
that makes sense is, why would it be? I said yeah when be like see sees it. Men assist those people stop and do not restart, cease and desist letter. Then you can't do that. I know if that happened. We'd have to update everyone, hello and then they'll do the opposite of what they would want the brakes began here. That's the way to take his now. It is given in the blood and guts. Now we want an would if they drew first blood, like is first blush rambles first movie owner who drew first book, loves wine. He said I gotta get anyway, I could do my Schwarzenegger today. That's I think I have a brain injury. I actually thought I was having a brain injury
we were handled many rooms. Yes, you were interviewing a very exciting ass that had brain issue and I was kind of giving me my vision. Can I give them On pay off now, it's obviously we everyone already knows no ready made on. I think they do. That's a great clear is that the group because it's not it's not on the nose, but when you hear the others would you'll start living really hard, because you go on about my God, ok and now my guide anyway, My vision got blurry bird kind of like feeling, weird, and I was like- maybe I'm having a panic- attack- nothing blow blood sugar. I came to the conclusion that you are doing your best thinking at the time the problem brain injuries, you relying on your your own correction system, yeah, you know to observe
What's going, haywire person was like giving it a trick for how to know if your brain is working and I was like doing it, but I was doing it in my head, which isn't, I think it supposed out loud what I got lily pad me. I, if a symbolic forty, fourth, nineteen, eighty, seven gag oak, normal your rain or express because you can even do it for media I've had two years ago I was like, I can't think about my heartbeat cuz. When I start thinking about my heartbeat, I swear it starts arriving and beating irregularly, and I'm like I'm, not allowed to think about my heart cuz. I think I'm going to blow it up. Anyway, okay, Lori, so FAM trips are called familiarization trips. That's what the travel agents get, Oh, oh Pham Traps, yeah, no Europe,
million as a user friendly. True, I now, when the trick, but its familiarization, ok they're. All she said that what helps which I thought this was really interesting. One of the most effective parts of therapy is the relationship with the therapy. not necessarily like the tired but barely mortality, exactly or experience level, or anything that, like that's interest, There are, I saw daddy's, second guessing your therapists. I saw it in your eyes now I like her ok now I do I do like her, but you won't make any
there be evaluating the most of all. I have the type of relationship. That's gonna bear fruit yeah I now I was you know. I think we all friends that are like their best friends are written nuns as mean they're good for our growth yeah, but she saying it's which I like she was like your relationship with their therapists, this sort of a microcosm for all of your relationship. So if it's a trusted relationship, then it that leaves room for you to have a real moments in that their appeal She was saying that you can kind of have fights in their in service, can fuck up and have to apologize. That to me is like oh now we're getting somewhere. It's been civil when I've done it. I haven't fought anyone,
What what is it right that we were all my gosh Gub was offers Dane like patient yeah, open minded, whom I now compassionate I want just said there is a big twist with that person. I really want to know what it is. I got a real job gallery it now beyond anyway, but she's right in there that alike. I found a lot of things that say that that's trail which, as interesting, that's that's all the there wasn't any ex, because she's an expert all right that they mostly or time well know we ve had some always has aroused usually have let's gonna happen. Anyway. It we gotta leave to go, see a movie for guess, we're gonna, hear no more, are either side check a short or seeing a movie, that's worth eggs. You sorry miss your birthday party rose. I went to the movies.
but for the most offensive excuse summer. Could ever anything what about this? I was. I was pursued a birthday party and then I accidently got to drug and lost track of time that I have a job when this weekend know it is a long time ago Carly and I went to the spa and then we went to the wine bar after and then we went to dinner. I can't believe that it was for a clock and it was what seminars on yet oh wow, oh no economic as it. No one knows what that is one second ago had actual okay.