Lydia Denworth is a science journalist and author. She is the contributing editor for Scientific American and writes for Psychology Today. Her work has also appeared in The Atlantic, Newsweek, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and Time. Lydia sits down with the Armchair Expert to talk about the biology of friendship, the science of social bonding and the evidence that we are social animals. Dax asks for suggestions to aid social development for kids who struggle to make friendships and Lydia details how friendship impacts mortality and longevity. They also touch on Lydia's work in the Deaf community, quality vs. quantity in friendships and Lydia explains why Monica is Exhibit A in the necessity of friendship.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome. Welcome! Welcome an arm chair, expert experts on expert, I Monica plan Man and am joined by DIN rivers. I think someone sent me suddenly. Would you like a contact interview day about, like of mine, MS yes, I would love to introduce Dan rather Ass Dan. Rather what about money? Nonsense, you think she exists and well I let scour the air. I guess she has she's some black water. Rural Tennessee is a major allergist Kelly Demeter. Well, today we have a really really appropriate guest because look, hopefully, must have us self quarantined. You're, not you have to work. First of all, thank you so much to the people that are working and risking their health,
in a grocery stores delivering food all the different services that we need man. Oh my grateful for all you guys tell the doctors, aroun medical community putting themselves at rest to help us. Thank you all so appreciated and went on to say about that money. yeah and also its part of our responsibility. If you're not one of those people to help those people out by staying home, the ashes, what we're doing so. This episode is really important. We have, with us Lydia downwards: she's, a science journalists and author she's a contributing editor for scientific, american and rights for psychology. Today, who work has also appeared, the Atlantic Newsweek the New York Times the Wall Street Journal and time, and she has written a very, very wonderful book about french
in the value of it, the biology, the science, the science behind it and how crucial it is to us to thrive on this planet, it just a wonderful message, I think, to be hearing at this time, and we talk about the fact checked. But again it can be very isolating right now, so you know what call people Maybe, instead a text here, someone's boys face time, let them here yours, let them see your face. Yeah zoom, do all these things there very helpful. As such, it should be noted that we all you know that people want as much normal see as they can get right now that your things are feeling topsy turvy. So you know did didn't episode on Monday, focusing on what's going on, but we're gonna get back tonight.
Well we're gonna start. Having are regularly scheduled, shows that aren't about what's going on and hopefully will provide some, and I will only make jokes about covered nineteen, because that's my nature and it doesn't mean I am it all downplaying the seriousness of it. We got a laugh with. I think everyone should be taking every precaution. I feel her renders for anyone whose family members or suffering from it, and also I will continue to make lots of jokes about. so without further ado, please enjoy Lydia DEN Worth we are supported by me on these are back in you, gonna be in trouble. Now I was staying at your home, yes and you have a dirty. On behalf of all my horror at your room- and I noticed it's just Stockholm now as a: why would you need a Andy membership honestly because it's fun it's an easy way to go
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ok, so Lydia you did not originally pursue science and any comparison er I did not in this is ironic, of course, whose Lydia's very esteem now scientific journalists- I am contributing editor at scientific American, and I did right quite a lot for scientific american mind which has been folded into the mothership of scientific American. At my work appears in the Atlantic, the New York Times Newsweek time, ok, wash your hands up, but but again not a history in science I majored in history, and I was that person who took the minimum
MT of science, require high school in college and thought that this would be the last thing I would end up doing charge or was it the math component? Do you think, probably partly aha? Now, of course, I recognise that, perhaps of that generation. Where I had the sense I wasn't good at math is a girl, but now it will. This is one of the great things about writing about science and not necessarily doing science. Is that you don't actually have to be a to do the math sure, but you have to have a conceptual aptitude for all these concepts and unused aniline room. You do and you also have to have an ability to or or a willingness to admit, anger and sound a daily basis and talking designs is you have to be able to say, keep explaining? It Me or I didn't get that in some of them are amazing,
that, and some of them are very sort of arrogant and and have a little patience. For that sure. I guess who get covered more. You know. I love that people who are really game for talking about it, and then I do say: I'm gonna ask you really basic questions, and sometimes some I'm just checking my own understanding, but the thing is that is so back when I started on this, maybe about fifteen years ago some sort of halfway through my journalism career, I started feeling my shelves with what you know the complete idiot's guide to
genetics or whatever it was. I have a very nice reference section yeah on science and I refer to it on a regular basis, and then I talked to scientists themselves to yeah. Ok, so back in Philadelphia would have room what a momentary do. They were both lawyers. Ok, were you at any point in a pursue law? No, I was never my parents, they wanted us to be engaged in the world and in a meaningful way, and I do think that they probably thought that law was one way to do that, but no nobody, I think, maybe because I just never showed any interest. Well, that's so evident. I want another. Is that cultural layer, which was that no teachers were guiding women toward stem at all? It was just pretty much the same. That. Wasn't there lane and they weren't encouraged. They were probably best way to burn off enough of that. It's also true that I really loved history in English and languages. I took french for years and die if I just today coming here at the gas
nation. I was able to help a woman who tourists to was unable to communicate with the guy at the guests My around my branches, rough now because has been years, but at one point I lived there briefly, and so I think, king? My lie education. I can only hope you return the favour, enacted very condescending and annoy tells us see this great. It was lovely and you ve siblings. I have a timber there are you: has anyone ever asked you when you said that identical as that ever come on of someone's mile all that, and now they need the complete eighty, its gadget genetics possible it so anyway, twin brother admin rather and I've known several sets of twins, but they were always the same gender. So how does being a twin boy and girl player, same closeness and all
probably not cry you I mean, I think, is more like just being siblings. The only thing is that there's there's less hierarchy because you came into the world pretty much. At the same time it is one of you left handed and one of you right now we're both right and entirely Ets. Everything is really high rates of because they never could. That generally twins face each other when they play in so whatever one is dominant will cause the other one to be left hand dominant interests there. That is interesting, she'll chauffeur, Jackie. I'm saying that I learned that twenty five years ago, there's gonna be another topical brimming over that I learned twenty five years ago. I m sure, to put my foot my, but so you into Princeton Monica were unit I'll meet. You were you always aiming at Princeton now, but I was aiming at
something I don't need. Big skull write a strong school for sure that was the milieu. I grew up and I went to a private high school outside of so I grew up in Center City Philadelphia, but I went to high school outside where you know that was very much. The goal was to go to a really good. School is called Shipley and still there still a good school, but I was a little bit of a fish out of water chasms coming from Centre City Philadelphia and there were a handful of us who did that, but mostly was kids from the suburbs about Princeton. I really just honestly when I was doing my college tours, which I have now been in the midst of doing with my own kid. So it is a funny thing when your revisiting that sort of phase of life, but it's too so, beautiful you handle the school is gorgeous, and I remember that I visited it on a gorgeous October day when the leaves were changing and all the gothic, our it looked like
college was supposed to look and re ass from a movie and when you're young and you started to anyone these schools. You have some appreciation for, but I dont think its till you're older, like we're all you can go back to you see. I am like I needed to spend every day in this place. It's so beautiful and so yeah laid out for just born another something magical about me. Ass is now. I really do think. That's true, and I do feel that there was a lot that was really special and wonderful about it and plenty of things that were more complicated, but I didn't get a good education and when you first got out you're doing different type I wasn't so my first very for she was at Miss Magazine and then they suspended publication. So then I went to psychology today and then they ran on a money, and so then I went to Newsweek and so
that was all in the space of account number two or three years and I kept thinking. Gush is any half magazines everywhere I go about bud. I ended up at Newsweek, which was a great place to be, and I really enjoyed when I was there, I was reporting in fact checking was a factor in early on which I think is a critical skills, but not all journalists today, because there's far fewer factors in the world. So I love that you all have the fact check. At the end of your show, but I was sort of in what was then called the back of the book and so health education. So so We wish you stuff now ram and science was part of that then, and I did work on it a little bit and actually, I had in fact check a story about the discovery
other lemur in Madagascar of particular mean lemurs only live in Madagascar, but this one kind of lemur that they had thought was extinct and then somebody discovered or re found. I guess- and I had to call this german scientist who had who had found lemur, and he had this very heavy german accent and the right or the science writers Sharon vaguely at the time it she's one of the all time great science, writers and she had written a lovely led about how hard it had been defined. The lemur you know they had to cross. I can't remember at all now, but let's they had across three rivers and climb to mountains, and somebody broken and ankle, and things like that, and so my job as the factor was was it three mountains or to mail, or was it a left ankle arrayed Anko, whatever it was an end. There is this long pause and then he says,
Lydia Lydia, it is the labour that is important, and I think this is one of the fundamental problems of thick with some scientists. They really just want you to talk about the work as they know that color eight is a fact checker cause. I remember like yours. I did about energy recently. Enemy called back at some point said shirt where you wearing under your sweater. Yes- and I'm like- I don't fuck Now I want you on the day great, and then I just wondered in that moment, unlike what I dont know on like, are they just gonna ditch that part? Is that what they would do when you come up against? That, like was three mountains or two I don't know lady like what like what what do you do a year. The factor will certainly make the case that we can include whatever the detail is that we can't verify it is sometimes the writer wins out or sore. They have some other argument for why they know it's so and dumb, but
Do they see, was adversarial or or helpful. Some do in some down a very interesting. You know. Sometimes they think you're, just as a factor trying to take all the fun out of it. ray, I think monitors trying to publicly assent If you buy back, you know says only on emission declared me. I think it's helped my science journalism now that that's what I do for you that I had that grounding in a checking in and accuracy. Ok. So how did science come, knocking on our door, a well about mid career, and I did sort of leave out that after those couple of first few jobs at Newsweek, I I ended up, but I was the European Bureau she for people magazine for several years, and that was really because my husband and I had we when we just got married. We ended up living in France for couple years and then we were living in London. He got a job, and so I got a job in the job I could get. Some of my colleagues from Newsweek had moved to be others that people,
So how can I just want to be a reporter of people which really wasn't my sort of jam at the time, but then I stayed and got this ended up running the thing it was in the nineties when Diana died acts. So I had this completely other experience as a jury. list, and I learned a lot about the importance of story in the human side of things from that and I had a lot of fun. Let me tell you: there was a girl. You ve, I got to do all parties Will you get to go to everything like you know, Wimbledon yeah, Hansard serve Fashioned, shows or the Bessie, but we are right and m, and I even spend a couple days with Tony Blair rate before it became prime minister, because his press people wanted a story people magazine, and so you know so there were some very cool things, but then there's things that I personally don't I dont think I have really the skills to be a good, celebrity journalists. The new right, maybe you'll, be happy to know that I was not. I was not really good it sort of instant tracking people down and insisting that
tell me, then re didn't want to tell me if it so So then we moved back to New York and I started having kids, and so I was freelancing and I I gravitated right back to the kind of stuff I've been doing at Newsweek, which was kind of health and education and things like that, and I got interested in lead poisoning. This is your first year than my first thought rightly. That is basically how I became a science writer. Is that my first book, which took a very long time to then come to fruition? But I got into from a children's health perspective, because you are a new mother, because I was a new mother and I was kind of obsessed with the fact that the way I heard about this doctor, who was described to me by my mother as an unsung heroes, who had been one of the first to understand that led, was harmful to kids and then had had this big fight with industry. To get led taken out of things turned out to be very simplistic version of the story, but now-
incorrect commands. What error this was good in this. Seventy I mean it to his work, was in primarily in the seventies and then in the eighties, and I was hearing about this in the well when I first heard about him would have been the very late nineties when my oldest child was to baby. So like many new mothers, I was kind of outrage that something that has been shown to be bad for kids would take such a long time to do anything about. So that's what got me into it, but then I found that there this other scientists. His name was clear Patterson. He was geochemistry out at Caltech, actually right here and he was very fascinating. Guy did a lot. Of course. things like dating the age of the earth, but in the process of in either at figured out that led was contaminating everything, so he had a similar story on the environmental side and the sky her needle and then I was writing about- was on the health and kid site, and I thought that the two of them would make a really interesting sort of dual biography of how we handle this this issue.
but it meant I was suddenly spending all this time. Reading clear Patterson GEO Chemical Journal articles, which were very difficult damn and I had had chemistry and tenth grade and, like I said I didn't you, take any more and- and I was little freaked out, but what happened was that when I wrote the book, all the scientists involved liked a lot. How I told that science- some science journalist really do have a strong signs background and that can be a great asset. I had the journalism background, the storytelling background I needed to do the work to understand the science, but it turned out that I had to explain it well enough, so that I could understand it myself that I made no assumptions about what the reader understood by the way for you I heard only. I think that's the single best way to learn is that if you are forced to pass on knowledge, you really have to learn.
Oh Absolute Lee, and I mean I know in my kids school: that's something that they talk about a lot, as you know now now explain it to this kid over here right now, so today I now feel this is one of the my favorite things about the work that I do. Is I truly and learning something new just about every day you know intentionally and that's really just fine, it's really rewarding there's something we should still be panicked about with lead, whereas Still wider hasn't been, you know, address well, so my book, which came out about ten years ago, really was celebrating this success. Ass of a mean in getting led out of gasoline and other things was one of the great public health success stories of the twentieth century, because the average blood led level in Americans drop. Ninety per cent of when it got taken out a gasoline and It is really a case study for everything else that were putting out the world and fur
environmental toxins, certainly, but also even for climate change, because it's all about our inability to really plan for the long haul, to make sure that we knew what something was going to do before we put it out in the world, but the thing was at the end of the book. I said you know, so we ve had this amazing progress, but then what happened was being increased finish the job we learned to do that, we lack the political will in the Miami seemed less urgent. This is gonna so? This is the repetitive problem of human memory right there, the bulgarian get is everything you grew up around polio you're, not of acts denier. It is that simple, but then we clean up the condition in them and when we bring that's exactly right and so everything that happened in Flint Michigan happened years after my book came out. It was that failure to finish the job, back the building and the bill came. Do that's exactly right, so it's still in pain
old houses and that's changing slowly with as the housing stock sort of turns over you, ve more new houses, but and then it is, water pipes- and you know now people are paying attention to that end. In flint you there we're a whole lot of things set in place for them to do that would have protected against this, but they didn't do it. So yes, so late is still a problem. It is not the problem that it was when we were spewing out of cartel pipes and things like that, but it really does have a long term, chronic effect on on kids health. Well, I just wanna hit your second ass. I can hear you whisper you'd. Do us on that stuff? I do ok, so I was born deaf. Really, yes, and I did not get my hearing taller round two years old, we lived out in the country and I'm on brought me home from the hospital. I appeared to be helpful.
I was colloquy those one issue, probably such a glaring issue, that the other stuff ignored is suspect. That's right! So then, at a certain point I had an Iraq or she suspected. I did we went into town. I, the doktor, looked at my ears and he immediately said you know. Taxes, deaf and my mom said noise and he's not deaf decks touch your nose in the night. I touched my nose in any turn me so I couldn't see here just knows any kind there. So I had scarred tissue over both your drums. I had an operation, I could hear them.
you know the next day of until that point my nickname had been wrong. My brother spoke really early. They are wondering why wasn't speaking hunting, grunting grunting and then all of a sudden I said, speaking and whatnot to I've always had this personal interest in. It then took this fascinating anthropology class on death culture that I got really really interested in, and so when I heard that this is what your book was about, I got very excited because we had a pretty specific point of view and anthropology, which is most of this. Technology, was destroying great and thriving deaf communities in weird ways, and I dont think it was an aspect people thought of when they thought of say the clear implant right- and this was gonna- be helpful to get kids on line in some capacity hearing wise, but all it
really did has put them in a position where they work really set for the Deaf School, where they could have had this great identity and culture and share community and instead forced them the kind of streamline in an area that they couldn't find community in cultures. I'm just wondering what your personal experience wasn't. Your book was about. No wonder if any those things overlap, o four sure, so this is conscious some controversial stuff still, but I will say this, so my book is three things I can hear you whispers part memoir, my experience being Alan his mom and my own son was the first deaf child that I knew in any meaningful way. Yeah, it's also a brain book. One of the things I discovered quickly was how much deafness can be seen as a
rain story, because whether or not sound gets into the brain has all these knock on effects for spoken language, but also for literacy in reading, and that was not something I knew. Is that because hearing as the first experience with some kind of conceptual like your hearing, a noise menu converted into something Is it that the lack of that that indeed either at the auditory cortex? The part of the brain that process is sound, needs to be stimulated by sound to operate an end if it is not after a certain period of time it kind of gets. Co opted the realistic it's used for something else. Also then its conceivable that even if there was some magic hardware upgrade for that year, drums the hearing cortex would have already the ruddy glancings exactly the way I there's a sensitive period and for hearing which is basically it starts to shut at about aged three
seven or three to seven years of deafness. I mean so if you lose your hearing later in life, but that the reason it so significant for very young children is because they need their learning language. So let me say this: if they have a parents who are fluent minors, then learning it S. So in America, Americans idling, which sign languages, are different in every country, but if you're learning sign language from fluent native seiners, the same language circuits get laid down in the brain. That's spoken, language does for hearing child, but the problem is only about five percent of death and hard of hearing kids are born to death parents, whose I rise fluently right and so a hearing parent like me, even though you can- and I did learned. Some sign is going to be signing at a very rudiments.
level yeah, and so there is, there is a lot to this, whose story in my book does so the third piece. I said it was memoir its brain and then it's also about death, cultural histories and especially my experience as a hearing parent being thrown into this world where there was this political controversy, and I was so surprised to find myself in the middle of this, because I am a liberal person, I think, of myself ass, a towel person, but the story that the deaf community with a capital de was was telling in the nineties and on, and there are still people who do was that it was even tantamount to child abuse to put a cochlear implant in your child, which just to say that parents, don't have a say in their argument, was that you should let kids grow up the old enough to make the decision themselves, but that site The neuroscience will tell you that if you do that, you have made a decision, because then that way
though that we were talking about rush so in fact I mean so there are benefits to getting a cochlear implant later in life. Even if you ve been deaf for a long time, but it will not give you the same access to sound that it does, if you get it under the age of the graves of because of the brain hearing is actually just begins with the ears, but hearing, really about the brain right and our people who who learned how to speak just by vibration by feeling their throat and things like that, that is a very hard way to do it. Somebody described it as like trying to Japanese through a sound proof window. You know we're just watching right, you know and what I wanted to understand, what that the sort of journey I go on in the book is trying to do and how to help my kid who is in this situation that I know nothing about it. Can I ask you know immediately? No, Who is actually. He was born a couple weeks thoroughly and he failed a hearing screening right in the hospital but then
We went back a few weeks later and he got tested and they said he passed and they said it was just because there was mucus in his ears because he was early, and so that was the one thing that we tested for than we thought was not a problem, but then everything was a bit delayed in his language, especially, and so it wasn t until he was about eighteen months old, that we knew for sure that he had a hearing loss and then what ended up happening is that it got worse. and so the gee I use, is that the whole experience was kind of like falling downstairs in slow motion because it just kept I took a really long time and getting worse and things kept happening and whenever you thought you knew what you were dealing with, then something new happened and and it's a shock to parents. Let me say this sun is is about to turn. Seventeen he's he's an amazing kid and he's thrived and MOE's.
Deaf people grow up to live, really wonderful, fulfilling lives right right, so you have to go from a to b to see you can't just jump over and assume everything's gonna be. Ok, I mean now I see well within encapsulates perfectly the struggle that all parents have. What are they have a deaf child or not? Is that your identity that you place on them and it is, I think, the biggest challenges to see them as their own individual and that may include them being in the different community. You were in and that's that part. One of the analyses that resonated most with me was the idea that, having a deaf child, if you are hearing parent and dont know, the Duff world is a bit like adopting from another race NOME so up, you love your child enormously, but they do have a piece of identity that you will never share. So I explore all of that and had to sort of make myself a little uncommon. about a house art of interrogating, my own biases and I do come down strongly
on the side of parents who choose a cochlear implant, and I think that there are enormous advantages and I did understand, though, at first I couldn't understand in the most hearing, people don't get why deaf people would even be opposed yet rivalries. The short version is that that they think of different deafness as a difference and nodded, stability and not something that needs to be fixed and they understand that adults who lose their hearing later, when they already are part of this oral world would choose a color plant to remain Yonner social world, but for children exactly, as you said right at the beginning in the worry, is that you taking them away from deaf culture. My hope is that it is that it you can have both. You can have a cochlear implant and you can choose to be part of of the deaf world, but I You think that I'm having that access to sound and then language and then what I really came to understand, was how important that was also for Europe.
lady, to learn to read and things like that and let down stream downstream. It turns out to be really important. Does your laying down those those tracks in the brain of for sound and then leads the language and then that leads to reading and I never thought about. Yeah sound as being so integral for reading, but it is, do you think, that's connected dear Dyslexia Couldn T radio Dyslexia. We often think of Dyslexia as visual, but it has a real auditory component aerial, sound component. I mean I can't well with you, but to your point if, if that part of the brain needs activity or will get common, there get common leered in the course of history. and I was at school- there clearly saw. I would imagine there was some well. One of the things we know now is how much is even happening like just zeal one for a deaf kid. For instance, if you get a cochlear implant at one there's some stuff, that's changed even before
We know now zero to three is so critical, but were also beginning to understand how much is happening in the brain even in the first year right. I would say that in there's a lot you can do with it but anyway, so that felt topic may be clear. Here does not want to send a civic book, but I dont think it does at all, because the topic of your new book is friendship and the necessity the benefits the biological component, the evolutionary and so within, even the deaf community. That is what you're talking about. They were, at least from that perspective. I was hearing in that class you're, asking them to leave the most valuable thing in their life, which is this community. In this friendship, and in some cases, yes- and one of the things I did really explore what the deaf community was, how it came to be why it was so important and special, You know what happened really was that the Deaf civil rights movement flowered in the nineteen nineties, right as Kotler implants, was coming on the seats? Are there
a perfect storm clean away shower and for an EIA cell was actually being recognised appropriately as a true language. So there were a lot of good things happening for deaf people and cook. Lampoons looked like just one more thing that wasn't gonna work. They do work right not for everyone, but in fact they do work in an incredible way from a science point of view, yeah, veins and credit. It is incredible what it can do, and so yes, there's a community and in the thing, is that a cell is the beating heart of the deaf community with a capital d, but is also true that communication in community can happen, then for kids, who do use technology to hear because Then they are not only in the deaf world, but they have it easier time of being part of the hearing. World stay tuned for more arm chair experts, if you dare
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ok, so that its very obvious why you wrote the first two bucks. So now, why do you think your blue book friendship, the evolution, biology and extraordinary power of life? fundamental bond, what language and yeah that second book I can hear. You whisper really got me interested in the brain, and it meant that then what happened was that as the science journalist, I was primarily covering the brain and psychology things like that, and I started hearing that there was this new approach, in narrow science or there was a sort of sub field called Social Neuroscience, where they were really considering how the brain interacts with other people, and so a lot of people think about Neuro Science, and it is a lot of it- is about mapping connections inside the brain. But I went to a meeting about five years ago. The first time I went to a Social neurosciences conference and in just four for reference, that was
the fourth time they were having a meeting of this group. So it really is a relatively new sort of sub field, and I realise that they were also talking about mapping the connections outside of the brain from me to you or to my friends and my family and that's all all kinds of social behaviour, but friendship kept coming up and I thought well I'm hearing about friendship at a neuroscience conference like that's, not really something I would have expected. I thought that was interesting. I mean we ve cared about friendship as a society for millennia. no Aristotle and Socrates and Plato talked about it and I'm sure who ever came before them talked about it, but we have always thought of it as cultural really and and of course, there is a lot of culture to friendship, but it turns out what's new,
that there is also this biology to it and an evolutionary story, because we are finding it in other species, friendship or something like it and other species, and that fascist felt really intriguing to me, and it also felt like something that would be important, an interesting to spend a couple years on, I mean, if you're, going to write a book you have to you have to decide. You can live with the topic for a few years, and- and I was at a moment in my life where my kids were beginning to leave home and I was my mother and while she has severe dimension now so she's still alive, but am that with all happening then? So I was very. I was certainly buffet other people's emotion, but I was also worried about- was I paying enough attention to my friends has pretty soon I was gonna, be. It is very easy for people with children, as I have them to not make time friendship for that to be one of the first things that that gets knows both obvious
profound that we know how important friendship is, but we don't actually act like it most of the time and it often drops to bottom of the list, especially when you're in a busy face. Well, you you do it as well with your marital partner, which is lying. Ok, well, that's a given, so I don't mean to nurture that thing. It's there it exist, it doesn't require. All countries are not yet. In fact, we snap at our marital partners in ways that we wouldn t treat our friends. So there is an all I'm saying yeah. I saw you speak about this in one of the things that immediately interested me is how differently we
hello lovers than from any kind of the longest, but I think we should most certainly beginning- let's start with some very basic inescapable fact that we are a highly highly social animal. We are not a tiger, we're not solitary right. In fact, we are the primate that lives in the largest cohesive groups ever recorded on this planet, so we're than ultimate social animal and we cannot exist there. We ve never found a man,
or woman existence solitarily on planet earth suffer the unit armor and that's what gets gets rate as an example August shooters. Every time there is a mass yet are used to fire they later they all attend. Knockout France, that is just the tip of the problem, but it is they deserve and there's a couple high horses I'll get on and one of them is leave. People go on type, a person that knowing needs three hours, and I know there is no human needs, three hours you're so rest, inaccurate, yeah and likewise with the notion of the hermit. You know that the romantic person not mountaintop that that too is not. You can do that just now we're supposed to be when they like it or not. You are correct about that, and yet the thing is that I thought was so interesting was that when we think about evolution at least those of us who are not spending all of our time focused on it like evolution,
biologists to mostly, we think about survival of the fittest and competition and survival of the fittest. By the way, I'm I'm told Darwin never actually used that phrase, but we know what it means rate and in your the sense of nature, reddened, tooth and claw rate, the biggest lion, is always gonna win, and what this new science is telling us is that, yes, there is competition, but there's also ban this extraordinary cooperation, and so there is at least as much survival of the friendliest as their husbands, survival of the fittest, or you could say that the friendliest turn out to be the fittest and in many cases- and we have appreciated that fully and yet it is. It is what underlies that would at human need to connect that you were just talking about your real basic there's, a group of a hundred people. One of Persons is an outcast, doesn't uncanny so oh bonds, you're out in a field, the hyena comes one guys got nine friends, one that no one wants to help. I dont manner if the one
oh, oh guy is the strongest your biggest he's going down in the person with eight friends. I would die for them is living it's it's predator, and sharing fitted- and those are the two really too big things- the preparation and finding food, but also then one of the things that people think is that as social groups became more complex, the brain had to become bigger and more complex to deal with that and that that's part of what explains are our big brains as humans, the others. A few really popular competing theories on. Why were so disproportionately intelligent or another primates, but most, I think in at least anthropology. The most common is just facial. Recognition requires an incredible amount of computing power right, so multi member groups. For you to be able to look at two hundred people.
Who they are individually nor their statuses and what the impact it has on your survival. That's a very that's a lot of complex computing. It is, and then you go even beyond that humans. We have fully formed theory of mine, so we can understand not only where they are in the hierarchy or who they are, but what they might be think and that they have their own set of beliefs about the world and that they may not match up with ours and your empathy using embryos work through a very complex in their terms, I did a whole story new neuroscience of empathy and their sort of three parts to it. And so empathy is big piece of friendship and it is complicated and it does have some if not all slammed on positive, because it does.
this tribal element to it can also add prayin. You could speak on a better than I ever made. Selection is a big part of evolution, and people are considering, I just think alike, who will survive and pass on their genes, but obviously there they will be selected by a mate and then you're standing in your group and how many people, like you vastly increases your appeal to other members of your group, said the sexual selection components also, probably warning friendship like ability, cohesiveness, yeah. I'm sure that's true, so I didn't look at made selection so much, but as I was looking at friendship, which in some ways by definition, is the people you are not having sex with. Although have you: gonna have sex life right well, and I've come to decide that that I think this new science blurs the lines somewhat, because it's more about the quality of the relationship than the origin. The big headline is that friendship is as important for your health is diet and exercise and that the relationships that are really good for your health are the ones that are real
equality relationships and that can be your spouse, but it can not be to the end, then what they find in other species where they don't necessarily have monogamy so yeah, you need a good mate who's gonna give you healthy offspring, but then you need to be able to raise that offspring up to maturity. And for that. What you need is a really supportive environment and in humans in a we do have monogamous mostly for relationships to raise kids in which his great cause kids really do benefit from that, but in baboons for instance, in my book you know they really found that what matters most was the strength of social bonds alike among these female, but
songs with other female baboons, and they were the ones whose babies live longest. So the mate selection. We didn't turn out to be the most important thing. You know we have the saying it takes a village, and I think everyone knows that same, but I don't think they realize how in discord we are with that concept. We are not living anywhere close to how we were designed to live. Your you should be in a group of kids in there should be a group of moms and dads, and this is like how we've lived for ninety nine percent, a timer on planet earth and we're just not doing that, and when you find yourself in that group, you for at least me personally and I go too late. We do have a friendship. Where will go on a vacation together and there's like there's eight parents in their sixteen kids? It is infinitely easier like so many of man. Some magic happened and I
when we're in those situations on my only get this feels exactly right. I can feel implicitly that this is how it supposed to be done, and it so less stress one me it's all a stressful on the kids. It's all like everyone's benefiting from this, and it we're so compartment lies in our lives that millions very hard to to live. That way. Yes and vacation is where most of us achieve it if we ever do a high by Yes, I agree one hundred percent were you need that support in its? Why we really need to be prioritizing were at least not letting friends draw down to the bottom of the summit's, even if some of the numbers, when you say it, is relevant to your health as smoking, obesity him, I really want to hit that point hard. So people feel properly motivated to consider this an inner life, because no parent,
I know it's like yellow smoke, cigarettes in the car with the chief was ended, and yet I doubt anyone takes it as seriously as that. The first study that made that link to smoking was back in nineteen eighty eight and it was really right at the beginning of the idea of recognising that social relationships and health might be connected in almost anyway and what they found then, with some very early just the first six, studies on this, which basically followed people for years and had a measure of their social connected ness and the measures were different studies. But the upshot was the more connected you were beginning with the more likely you were to live for the duration of the study, let's, let's call it ten years and what they found was that the risk of mortality, if you were socially isolated, was equal to their the motel any risk of smoking. We were twice ass, likely to die if you were socially isolated
the choice is likely to die. If you were smoking a lot since then they ve done more work and what the really gold standard that most people refer to now was a big mega analysis and two thousand tens of that's a study of studies where you combine data, and so this time instead of six studies, it was a hundred and forty eight studies more than three hundred thousand and the average length of those studies was seven and a half years and the people who were the most socially connected were fifty percent more likely to live across the breadth of the studies. So in this case it was more about how likely you were to survive. Quitting smoking have less of an effect on how likely yours by then you're social relationships. It mattered more than anything else. I want more than obesity more than physical activity more than drinking all this Indeed, they know. What's going on physiologically, what that's kind of what they ve?
doing ever since, and so initially the idea was well. Ok, we see there's this correlation, but near sure, familiar with correlation just means two things are happening. At the same time, it doesn't mean that one is causing the other it often you're wrong and quite often you're wrong in there's been allotted. We know that the auditors and a lot of bad science exactly exactly so. They said. Well, maybe the reason there's disconnection between social relationships and health is a concept called social support which is based glee that you know like your house's under construction and so Your friends maybe make your dinner more. often or something like that or help. I don't know you know that somebody helps you move when you Can we move in or or most pragmatically that you have somebody around to help drive you to the hospital? Should you need to go leg?
Monica might notice that GMO axes organs are good. Today, I think we'd better go get a project, I think something funny because currently living at our house out there we got because of article four. Yes, so she's under our care in observation hair. You- and it is- we can talk about it. So I had a seizure. And we were in new york- and I was with friends- girls trip was a girl's trip. I was with friends, thank God, thank God, because I also had one last year. Ok, but I was by myself and I didn't know, and we want a year without knowing what it was, and so there were people next to me, Now we have answers to your exhibit a parallel. Yes, they figured it out. That is social support exactly and it is clearly a real thing, an end very important thing and you can
You stand immediately, why that would make a difference for your mortality in your chance of surviving. The thing is this, though, that that is not the only thing at work and what happens I mentioned my baboons earlier that I gotta go, spend a little time with, so it turned out that the baboons with the strongest social bonds also live longer, and I mentioned the baby's they have more and healthier babies and those in evolutionary terms you you can't do better than real active success and longevity. But baboons don't drive each other to the hospital right right. So wise, the only nine re. Something else is at work here too, it's not that and so all this work since then, so that the list of things that we know that social integration or and friendship on the one hand and loneliness and isolation on the other hand, effect now. We know it's cardiovascular, functioning, immune system, cognitive, health, men
so health stress responses. I talked about in an even the rate at which yourselves age will caps on yourselves, get shorter, faster if you're, less socially that there is still a lot that we are learning about this than we do have all the answers we I'm using the royal we'll I'm not Harry S eyes and I'm just report, but you don't I ran up about this- is unsure. This is all leading to a friendship pill Bethel up. So will the other big statistic there's this long running study at Harvard the Harvard Study of adult development that followed these people from the thirties all the way through their whole lives. So that gave us this information that you can rarely get in humans, where you're, really following the course of everything about them and had some medical information, social information, everything you want the thing that best predicted health, especially and happiness at eighty was not your cholesterol,
I will not your professional success, not your wealth, but your satisfaction with relationships at fifty, ok and and at fifty is often the moment where yours totally pulling your out. Maybe your kids are out of thousand year, but you're in the middle of your career, height of your career, say or using your busied easier you whatever. It is, and I like to highlight that statistic, because I think what all this new science and this fact that there's this biology and evolution to this tells us is yes, okay. This is adding to the things you should be paying attention to, but instead for me, if, given me permission to hang out with my friends a priori to prioritize. My friends are not to feel bad. I don't have to feel guilty anymore. I'm not writing that story this due to Morrow. Well, you know it I'll get up early to Morrow, do it, but I will be better and healthier and happier, and so will my friend be if we go out to dinner tonight.
it is because you stupid Lee categorized as frivolous activity, frivolous gradually extra. That's that's my whole thing here. That's my stick to many people, think of friendship as kind of frivolous and a lovely nice to have, but not essential. It is essential as part of the infrastructure of who we are ass humans, but I do think worming in progress, and since I was raised till now like in my circle, like people exercise that's in that period of time is protected and understood, and if someone says I can't I'm working out, you go at Yo Yo. Yet you should hear good yet in in a would be great if, if increasingly so, like yeah you're friendships were or were given the same priority and validity of wheat when your partner ass you to have those moments her, what not yet my wife this year.
taken zero troops with me, but one on a twelve great girls trip and then an eight day had I gotta say that at the moment, when it's been suggested on, my o k will win all. But then the visible benefits of it are extraordinary actually makes my life way easier when she's just had twelve filling days with her friendly somewhere and then comes home she's a different person. Do you go on ships with Europe? I do I. Yes, I go off Rodin with my rose. I guess Alex, I won T get those adrenaline headquarters. All levels are not a thing that spouses shouldn't also go away together; they should but, but they do need to make time for each other to spend time with other friends. Exactly as your saying in its lovely that that you get that now, can I give you a total two years ago, my stuff
there who had prostate cancer. I went to visit my mother when I got there became clear that that week was going to be the end, and I was very involved in that process, and mostly just in a roll of like I got this mom. Let me take over and in that zone. I was just like its business time and it wasn't till. I laughed immediately flew from there to allay ex where I just picked up my three year old daughter in that we were went to Detroit for fun. Just the two of us and that have been planned for months, and I got their nose like all of a sudden. The weak hit me in the eye got very unhappy and restless in pessimistic and all the stuff in him with my daughter in it so many times and like I'm, just gonna go home. I don't know what we're doing here, a miserable I need to go home, get hung on. Finally, my friend got Johnson came to visit us at the hotel. He and I started.
talking. I start talking about the weak and how crazy it was heightened and all the stuff, and then you know that was, I don't think I've ever felt a more profound dose of the that utility of famine. I just would like. Oh my god, what pill could have given me that are what anything could give him a magic give really can a hundred so I say that as a science turn right, yeah just feels like with did I dont know what I mean. What I would have done. Also, quite often my advice is always like he find that best friend and junior high. That's the thing that change my life, the thing that changed my life was, I met someone that was a saw me and we d find ourselves together, and he gave me the courage to be this person. I would have normally been afraid to be, and I really just don't think without that person, I'm anywhere that I'm currently
and we in our view, Malcolm Gladwell, am he had that friend and his school when he was a ninth grade and he talks about Flynn Anthony Keaton meeting each other? You can you just peak, unlike the power of having met early on and what it can do, the rest, your life, I love they. You brought up middle school. I love it because I have a whole chapter in book about child had not lessons and the intensity of friendship at that time, especially its intense for good or or not write. It can also be hugely painful and there are kids who feel excluded and ignored, but what adults need to recognize is how powerful those relationships are. In fact, a lot of the cycle
Just I spoke to think of them as attachment relationships in a we often think of attachment only as mothers in babies and parents, but John Bobby, you created the idea of attachment theory thought of it as a cradle to grave phenomenon for other relationships in our lives as well as that caregiver info, relationship, and so I think you and your friend had have, like the oh yeah, an attachment bond and, and that you, you know you are so important to each other- that love and affection has had a lot to do you are thriving in succeeding in the world, which is what Bobby said that that strong relationship with all those positive helps us to do more and to do better and in middle school. It turns out that that is you mentioned that it was
that. You came together with shared identity and that's what is happening so much to kids that a trait they are beginning to figure out who they are in a way that is different and they sometimes diverge from the kids that they ve known and been good friends with all along because now this one is wants to be now pleading that one wants to be an actor and doesn't mean in a like each other anymore, but but you just spend more time with somebody who wants to do what you
wanna do right. I mean that's a sort of fundamental simple fact about friendship is both similarity and proximity do have a lot to do with it, but I think that that finding the shared kind of interest and world view is this essential piece of it and if you're lucky enough to find that person at that age, it's the prime moment in your brain development, even to make that bond be just sort of this fundamental thing in your life dear. So I have this part of the book where I've been off watching these rhesus macaques there live on an island in Puerto Rico, where they're doing a lot of very important science of friendship, they're watching the social behaviour like kind of exacting gossip columnists like who does what the Meda so their little charging you know who's near by, and proximity has a lot to do that. And then I come home to Brooklyn and I find my then seventeen year old Son Jacob, whose my oldest sitting on the couch with his best friend Christian playing video games, and I was pissed because it look like they had never left
in the week that I was gone? They were sitting on game its end and you know, dodge everything better to do, you're sitting around doing nothing, and then I had to stop, and so all we Lydia they are doing something look at the proximity. They're, just like bond did monkeys there right next to each other on the couch. You know that these two have been best friends from four there. Now, twenty one thereabouts graduate from college, but so they ve been best friends as they were or a when they haven't seen each other and eight they meet up again. The physical huh enjoy, and it's a beautiful ringed oil say like our breakthroughs of species and cutlery, its friendship other. I think it's the single greatest part of being human well and so in that part of it. So many people have appreciated that, but now the bonuses that is going
I'll be live longer and I will fear more more often Ericsson relentlessly. It's like it's all who you're with it has nothing to generally do where Europe, I couldn't say it better. That's that's exactly right, and it turns out that that's all through this science or friendship that understanding that end acting on it. So, for instance, parents like instead of freaking out about how much time your kids are spending online. You should be looking at what are they doing here and with whom? The point is the with whom peace is really important and also it turns out that kids do better in school if they are allowed to work, with their friends and were often spending time pulling them apart from your friends, because they can be disruptive, and I say that as the mother three boys, you have often been separated from their friends, and I get it. I'm not saying that the boys are behaving in a way that is conducive to the classroom, necessarily working. But but I do think that as adults, we have this tendency to only see the negative,
and not maybe try to work with the positive side, and maybe they don't get to sit together during the lecture, but then for the project. You could put them back together because they turns out that they have deeper conversations more cognitive, Lee challenging. In me they go to more interesting places in their discussions if the if there with a good friend- and there can be benefits to other stuff too, but like that piece of it so interesting to me that we have no idea. I just wish adults. consider the friendship factor just a little bit more or like if you're gonna, send your kid away to camp or something you know really really matters whether that kid has a good friend to go with you.
And you know we often think there are things that are worthwhile for still on the parenting side of this worthwhile for kids, and they are, in terms of you know, like learning about something important. But if you send a kid off by himself or herself, it's the rare kid who can really do that and engage in the way that that they'll get the most out of it, whereas if they have the support of good friends, they they might well we'll go governs me immediately to so knowing your coming here and thank you to my own exe.
Parents how beneficial these friendships of Ben. I have to acknowledge, like I do that easy, and so I'm nervous about just going like why everyone should pursue this in some people are good at it, and some people are bad at it in its heartbreaking to me for the people who have a hard time connecting with other people. So you know what would we do about that? I think that one of the most important things about this new line of work is that the biggest step change in terms of your house and you well being is from zero to one for France So you need well, ok, one! Ok, you don't I'll have to be the delay for the party you don't have to have big groups are friends. Some people do it means, basically you do you own friendship, but do do friendship somehow, ran, and so there are different styles and lotta people prefer just one or two good friends and his lungs. They have that
they're. Ok now there are also benefits to quantity and diversity of friendship. Some there's some other things. We could get into But fundamentally, the most important thing is a couple of quality bonds, and if you ve got one your way ahead of the game, there are still some people who don't even have the one. There are people who in first, that their good and is important to understand that loneliness to a social psychologist. These days is actually the mismatch between the amount of social connection you want, and the amount that you have so is not just about being socially isolated because sometimes being alone is a lovely thing. I actually like to be alone some of the time, because I have a very busy and lots of kids and lots of noise, and- and I love it when everybody else's spoke- I got gay review, but
A little of that goes a long way for me and then I really start wanting to connect and I think a lot of people are that way. Some people, though kind of stay there and there are people who are introverts most introvert, though, do have that one or two really friends or or even a few more stages for more arm chair experts, if you dare we are supported by legal Zoom Lee those taxes bats one thing we all have to deal with this time a year and as a business owner its critical to know all your options. That's why you should lean on legal zoom. L L sees Db Ays s corpse. They all mean different things when it comes to paying taxes and limiting your personal liability there's a lot the think about, but with legal zoom. You don't have to worry about doing all the legwork yourself to find the right answers. They have a toddler resources to help, including their network of independent attorneys and tax professionals will provide the advice you need to ensure your operating.
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selection and see whether you really mean it. I think we were increasingly in the time where you can get pretty pleasurable e satiated or distracted by some of the options on the table that feel social. The dull, as we ve, had other experts, and here there is a lot of physiological things that do not happen when you're having a relation ship online. Yes, you need to see people, you need your mere neurons to be triggered. You need all the different. I answer gets the social parts of the brain really going in the communication. Parts of the brain and that's eye. Contact in person is different from even like Skype Chat, but it's not that there's no value to the Skype. I don't think it's just that is different and that yet yes, I agree totally. You need those in person relationships or I think it's really interesting, though I was happy to discover that, as as I was coming to the end,
reporting on the book. It turned out that there was this raft of new work on social media, looking at social media and well being, but also specifically relationships, and the big picture story was that it's not as terrible as we have all come to believe if you are using it, for instance, as one extra channel with which to communicate with people that you also see offline and then like it, strengthens those relationships, and if you have a bigger net online. You tend to have a bigger network offline, so their debt. There is a war going on that's more a mirror of your online and offline life and we sometimes a push lazarev refreshing to well. I was clear dreading to be really honest, having to report on this piece of it because it felt like quagmire? It felt like re theirs, as so many people sort of theirs stereo over here and then there's the sort of tackling those. Yes,
I wasn't sure I mean it's not easy. If you are not the researcher either to sort of decide that you feel that there's our story that a storyline as rising above the rest of it- and that is what I felt, which was that we can't amp down to hysteria a bit. What we need to do will sign to are beginning to ask more nuanced, contextual questions about this and they're trying to sort of say as the big picture, even for adolescence. So let me just give you the the facts and figures here. So there is a really important big study. They came out from the University of Oxford a year ago and what they did was they looked at these big data, sets that existed about adolescents and had a lot of information about their lives, not just technology used and what they were looking at was a statistic quota for sent a variation in well being that could be attributed to technologies, and it was it was negative, but it was less than half a percent,
Point four percent: this is four thousand and fifty thousand adolescents, and so we're talking about at a population level we're not talking about every individual kid. Ok that in their unimportant point, but it was point four percent wearing glasses, which I am right now. Is worse or you'll. Wear reveal I've been here. I've, I'm old enough. Now that I've uncomfortable in my again- and I you know but wearing glasses- was worse eating a good breakfast sleep you we would I mostly getting. good night, sleep was so much more important on the positive side, for your well being. Then, technology use on the negative side that the point of this work- and this was Much more rigorous statistical technique in the point was to look at the forest for the trees and say what's been knelt PA
what have been the right words the net, and how does it shake out compared everything else going on and kids lies rank and the of any other peace- and I mention this before- but I will say it again because it is so important- is that it turns out that parents what they obsess about is time online, but the very concept of screen time has come to mean almost nothing, because it encompasses so much stuff that so different that scientists now are saying. Well, that's not at all what we should be counting and yet that's what most of the research at the beginning was killed There was just saying you know you spent more time you spend less time, but they weren't looking at what you were doing in that time an end, so just call it was just a lot of all which is, as you know, when, when a field of Sciences knew that it is a sort of a blunt instrument, it takes time to figure out how to ask better questions, but that's where we are now So, in addition to that study from Oxford, there's been several others that do this kind of sort of. Let's get the big picture of you and the big picture of you just isn't quite as terrible as we have been led
believe all that's good, but that doesn't mean that there aren't some people, especially teenagers, for whom social media is a problem like, especially if you already suffer from depression and anxiety it can exacerbated, but knowing that you already have that problem, and that makes it worse theirs One solution to that than worrying about social media as being the sort of evil thing that is sending everybody down this path of destruction, war at the conclusion of researching and readiness book. What was the number one moment you have apparently like you're. There had to be well there were. There were many, as I have already I already mentioned. One was this sort of watching my kid play, video games and recognising that While I am not saying that kid should play video games all the time that I as apparent, which just really missing a big piece of the story that was goin on the social visceral connection between
two boys, but the other. The other thing, just in general, as apparent clearly this this health and longevity research. he's telling us that pretty much the most important skill or one of the most important skills that our kids can have in the world is to be be a good friend to be able to make friends to be able to maintain friends, and we as adults need to recognise that that's us feel that they grow there they that they did not wire acquire and they perfect internet. They don't come into it instantly been good at it necessarily and so need to be explicit about that being an important thing to be conscious, daulby about achievement- and you know So I really work now with my kids about sort of not that you, should be intervening in every little interaction. In fact, a big piece of it is that kid's needed enough time together, unstructured to just hang out work it out amongst themselves and that time, like, like sleep overs, I dread sleep oversize! Apparently you no other than blood in firelight. Can we ever sleep over it might like
least favorite son just gives its opinion, and I get tired annoying moves noisy and they don't sleep. I don't sleep. Everybody instrument jogger. I have two cooker IDA for more in whatever, and am I I wish I were support generous spirited about it, but that was always way felt, but I really have come to see it differently. I see that is one of the last unstructured bastions of childhood, and and yeah. Ok, I know a lot of worry work. Parents are like a oh, but you know their rules are different. Fine, I can't believe, is nobody's house that you think your kid. can garage data also seen other rules and action. It couldn't be more beneficial. Can we do this this way? They do it that way, with the result that the one other thing I just want to say is apparent that I think, is really really important, and this is true like with we mention spouses and everything, but You got a model of the thing that you think me.
oh you're so say all day long. You can say all day long, but if you never spend time with your friends or you never say you know, it is what I am doing now and you kid are not absolutely everything. In my view, no enemy, then you're not sending the right message, causing re more or less funding. Will you come from this is the single most provocative way possible would be if Europe, parent of a teenager, who had a ton of friends and smoke cigarettes versus, was completely isolated alone. Then smoke cigarettes, no parent, no world, wouldn't think the priority be the cigarette smoking, but just speaking purely data data driven you'd, probably better worrying about isolated kit. One that may arise provocative. It's ok, then I thought- and I and I are gonna tread carefully, but I gotta say that you have a point of a point. You should still work.
I'm getting them to not small Joe, we don't want to live, but it did you go right now. This is true. So if you have a kid who has a harder time, do try to do played AIDS. Do you try it out? teach him well cooperation that other things you can an act that can help with that. Yes, there are- and I say this is not, as you know, and expert therapist, child therapist or or even a teacher having to deal day in day out in the classroom, but but it turns out that there are some sort of small things. Adults can do like that. I just have done a story on friendship in autism actually, and there was a study that found that kid's without ISM, who are mainstreamed in inclusive environments, are often socially
left out, and it's not there being rejected their kind of being ignored and on the playground. It always look like they were interested. But now what we know is that they are interested in social interaction, and so it turned out that there's a couple of things: they did that that helped, but also getting the adults on the playground to just do small things like check that that kid knows that to the game that these other kids are playing and sort of help say? Well, maybe you can all play together, just inserting it doesn't always. Work being really pollyanna about this here. I know kids can be their own world, but it turned out that that did help. That did make a difference in that like on a playground, for instance, the adults often just thought that their job was to sort of and you know be more of a sharp rise in deciding the violence of vague right, minimize, the most critical stuff, but not engage and small things helped. Now, if it's your own kid who sitting home
I do think that the shared interest piece of friendship is. I keep coming back to that when people ask me about either helping kids make friends or adults who are lonely or have just move to a new place or or older adults who retired and our sort of staying home, it's very hard to get people to just become friends by sort of throwing them together. But if they have a shared purpose, are shared in time then that almost always works better, and so for a kid who is really alone. I do think that it would be really important for parents not to gas on their own part, what they think they're kid might like, but to really try to figure out what kitty actually likes me, I will announce harder than you would be hard. I know it can be, and so sometimes, if you really think it that information, then maybe you have to try a bunch of different thanks a lot. Albert I don't know, but that does turn out to be something that brings kids
together and remember is like even if it's just one friend yeah, that's okay, that will work, and so parents don't have to think well. She only has this one friend and they know which we often do, because I feel like or in this weird age now, were almost d. In as it is at devising IDA seizures how do I know you are exactly disincentive, rising cooperation because we're like that
squashing their personality. That seems to be a kind of this new age. You thought of what we want them to grow up to be strong and independent in this, and that so let them just kind of I don't know about him, he's like that's not how the World WAR always one of them. The ehler silo, like my might be right, technique movement that alot of people use, I'm not insane and critical of it, but basically the goal is personal validation versus outside validation, which I think is a great all, but also at the same time I I was. The first is when this was being pitched in my house, all those like your county, now that we are a social animal, that's supposed to respond to the pressure of the group that how we all monitor each other people just like. So the goal is in total independence.
Self validation, because you will not work within a group and we are group animal, so I am a little hesitant to some of those sweeping yeah thoughts. Thank you. Hadn't even looked at my book when, at that stage yet argument I make a lot of it. Is that and we especially in the? U S, we have this real culture of literality any attendance, and there are some great things about that, but it it just sort of fails to acknowledge how much we are a group, animal and and how much the community matters. You know it's funny. I just came from this conference that was about adolescent development and education and in one of the things that came up was well. What about like gifts? Kids are being homes schooled. If gives our homes, gold or they're just doing online courses and often the reason given is because their being bullied and bullying is a huge problem, and it really is sometimes there's physical danger and sometimes it's just its
You really worried about could spend health, but one of the problems is that if they get taken entirely out of social interaction than their missing out on a huge amount of social learning, the reactor missing this single most important part of even going Schools now learn geology, yeah You are my ology another way whether it is to learn how to cooperate. Kids need those peer to peer relationships, I'm not trying to judge apparent who, whose really afraid for their kids health, but they You need to get that peer to peer some somewhere else. That is the critical piece of this right is. Maybe that particular school environment is not the right one. I can't judge you know a case by case, but knowing that peer to peer interaction is essential for kids in that there's all this stuff, that they're gonna learn from that the big yet get from their relationship with parents alone is really important. I think it would also be very, very tempting as well, and I would not fault any parent, but again because we project so much of our own experience onto our kids if they had a uniquely terrible experience, was
go in there that much more likely, I think to be like you know, I'm not putting them through this. When you know now, he now ok, so I have some way for you to be talking to you later this this spring and my friend Judy Warner is writing a book called, and then they stop talking to me and it's about making sense of middle school and her whole idea is that parents are put. their own filter minutes. Girls on how kids get up opposite way on exactly less aid. The best you're like why are you won't should now that that can be hard to falafel, but my last question for use. What is the difference between vertical and horizontal relationships? It has to do with authority and an age so vertical.
asian ship would be between parents and kid all, and horizontal would be peer to peer okay, and so, for instance, there thing you get from appeared appear, horizontal relationship which can get from your parents are theirs elements of trusting cooperation that come with those kinds of relationships and loyalty, but but really importantly, to be a good friend. One of the things you have to be able to do is give some port and you don't really get to do that with your parents, how much you really are receiving support, not learning how to give it to, and so with your friends. You do start to get that given take and that that's actually one of the most essential pieces of friendship like at the simplest definition of friendship, is that it has to have this reciprocity in your cooperation to it. Yes, I constantly obsess above the notion that we are preparing them for a relationship they'll never have in their life, which is no, it's gonna fucking dough and these girls the way I'm doing it. So as I a misleading now known- and I know you're, not you are storing up for them that that is again.
Were given a memo gift and being wholly loved by one's parents. There's nothing better, really. Truly others regular said my wife if they think they're gonna get away with the ship with a boyfriend or that why they need both, they need you and then they need those peer to peer relationships, those hours on our relationships where they get the message that yeah yeah what worked over there is not exactly the same over here and you have to be indifferent person, and so that's my biggest worry about kids, who are either isolated or an hour. Then kept out of school and and peered swimming the time when environmental summit,
yeah well Liddy. I'm so glad that you're making this as important as the other health risks that we all kind of observe, because again, I'm just a huge proponent of like find your soul may create an identity together. Make each other feel confident. I do think it's almost special glorious thing about being on this right, so friendship, the evolution, biology and extraordinary power of life's fundamental bond, please by Lydia's book in learn all about this in prioritizing your own life, your friendships and model, good friendships, be a good ran receive good. Frankly, thank you so much for having me this was great and I'm so glad friendship is such a part of both of your lives all want the recipe of our success. We assure is emotions living
The sooner you really are carried out. Will we look forward to your next endeavour of shares? A little grub. You again take you in a wholly other direction. Perhaps filthy ok, bye, bye, bye and now my favorite part of the show the fact check, with my soul, made a bad man for back. I'm so excited it to be recorded in person face to face to face our last couple fact: checks were run low, so sketch everyone, assuming not everyone, watches mines to room stories. I can't imagine they do. I was travelling for top gear America I went to Colorado. Then I went to Austin yes best for an error weekly flew to us and to be with me for the days of fell, mean yeah. They then pull the plug gaps, unfair mean he and I drove home on one brag, but fourteen hundred miles and eighteen
hours and thirty minutes no staff well nigh to start from Iceland, a p nonstop their mother, when only a written like sabotage, tailoring. No, no, no hotel, stop restaurant stop yeah yeah we ate in the car he peed on the side of the road and were filled up, and that was it so we drove straight home and then we were a minute. Your mouse is beautiful apartment, a yes, my god, what it was like being away at a spar. Somebody else may also good in their number. Monica such great style. I mean I'm always been aware of it, but I was acutely aware of it being in little dwelling, even the napkins four, so that the balls in the plates hurl said on the dining room table in their very fashionable than is beautiful. Cloth napkins was cute little abroad. It focuses on. I just got those there's so cute. You were so opposite as boys and girls. Anyone I when I was a bachelor as like any twenty plates.
All the same, I want the balls, the match, the plates, blah blah blah every dishes, kind of Unita, intrusive art, for you open up, there's like twelve different varieties. A lot of. I love those blue ones that are deep dish, they're kind of narrow at top the very deep adventured. Ok, Their great in my son made us Hallo fresh last night. It was fucking delicious this beef over some wise a summer peppers. Oh my god, we wanted the six more servants of it of soda, but your linens are beautiful. The couch exe the ordinary sons been sleeping on a ruined it's every night houses? I had terrible gas, the lasting farting in your bed defiling neither throw your madras. My son is ruined. Your couch was, if I felt there. Yes, it's become deck, Shepherd Sort filters prototype
oh and I showered in your your fucking shampooing conditioner is so nice what a luxurious product. I watched my bought hall. We love is so you how yeah it's done. My body, it's in your, but who now you must have a bunch of the hot. What buckets of you as a disaster back there look the OIE moods comforting, as my son's anus is twenty times worse than all. That's true! It's all relative! Well, this so by use is a volcanic ash. So, and I love it, I'm obsessed with it- and I heard it so I buy light- are used, oh, I know I'm guy, I'm happy to share with my friends I buy like fifteen. At one moment, I have enough for like the year you're, so ahead of the curve, your hoarding before anyone else well before cry, and also I'm against hoarding during this time, shaping it's really a bad idea to buy like four hundred cases of toilet paper. On enlarging him, though toilet paper for people who need it, I just don't,
brought up a Sunday, but I don't of all the things of all things totally, because all these people have shower that's. When I sat here in the shower, I know scrubber asshole, exact but boy what a party we had in their its its funding kind of like Tingley to know he bore staying at you howls. I bet there's something really kind of like scare. How about a sure like we're gonna read your journal or exact yeah you're gonna find some thing that I didn't take care of: well. Now her should even You said I wanna buy you a lamp for your night stand as I go. No, like I veils flows, and then I was like they're gonna come in and they're gonna think I ah so does de in no way I felt nerve foaming. I know we love, it were in love with that place we won. entire. There are also loved. I have this week when I went to motor home or one I'm staying in a hotel for a protracted period. I like what my life gets small like
here. We are this desire to abide by these outrageous houses on big piece of property were the dream. We were also told me and when your life gets tiny Emmanuel, it reminded me of living that one but a requirement for ten years and Monica was fuckin easy. I now it's gonna worry free. I like that. I know you texted me and said a wire did you buy, have totally built in their unlike you have made in this shit now, and I do have how sitting there with at the end can't do anything to it, for who knows how long yeah, yeah it's easy time. There has been a crazy time and I think some people enjoy crazy times in some people, item and I am sympathetic to the people at home, but I M the type that likes like a the chaos at all, but a black who I've never experience this right like we took a walk, goddamn for those upon his walk. The weird like six feet apart. We walked six feet apart, which was weird, but it was a heightened walk
we had more fun on that walk than we would have normally had on. Well, it fell like going to Disneyland or something that was the only thing we could do you. It makes me appreciate the tiny things like two does. It does make you feel very grateful and have a lot of gratitude for ships certainly back around I've, never felt more use. Take for granted the people in your life from the proximity to those people and all of it like this is a good wake up. Call the friendship friendships O Brien, we'll real, real important or wanted out there, so my son and I've been doing which is really fun. Ism we ve been win online Ay Ay meetings here that are set up on that Zoom Gazprom is having a real aid. exudes a boom, but they're really fun. I totally dig it and then it's funny because my son and I are the only two people that are sitting next to each other in them
maybe the everyone else's at their computer and there were snuggling on the couch. Mary is really funny. Tonight's meeting we're gonna do shirt less. We decided of spice it up, for the other guys in the meaning of faith. There. We didn't do a fact check on the last episode and so interesting you, you totally are of the opinion that he he disagreed with me and I am of the opinion he agreed with me I only disagree, but I think he was saying like that, can be re and also don't think that could we get a time making vote from Rob just say what do you think Sundays response was to my question. I think at similar what she said that it could be a thing, but it's not a mindset. That's gonna help contain scale robber. Looks he deserved. A lot of credibility is your theory that he disagrees with because he's a boy, a yak, as always agree with each other. Wolden general girls agree with each other, we are you think you have the same theory about me
Kristen when we were in Turks and Cayos. That was like the big all yeah. You thought that we were like always on the same page and you could never will I felt gang about Ray. I yeah yeah. I do think when it some male or female debate, there's been a couple of em when it's that specific topic, you are clearly on the female side, which you should be an I'm clearly Males are all I'm saying more in the on the spectrum of pragmatic, verses, emotional. I think you're in the dead centre of Christian. I Would you I see you know I do I mean if it's a zero to ten zero is the most a motion. All head space, you can be an acting purely out, the motions and ten is acting purely out of facts. I think I'm a seven
I think I'm closer to acting out of facts than acting out of a moat albert I. What do you think sure. Now I think you'd be a six but yeah area to use very much more notional than I am, and I am very much more pragmatic yeah. I mean I tend to think that there are all tied together anyway. I think So little naive to think that you're only pragmatic, because you're looking at facts like there's a motion going into that too. Of course, by the way, I hope its clear, I make an argument that I'm right that label should be like me. No, no, I don't think we will should be like me, and some people should be like me, and some people should be like risen in some people should be like you, but they need need all variety of us yeah. I go to work. Ok, so Libya has the swedish message that could be passed. Billy I now baby. I mean it is a tricky situation, because right now, everyone's ice
but that's we gotta find ways like you or Joke Munich call people dont tax, pick up the phone here, yeah exactly make such a big difference. Phone Skype sex sobs all love hollow. Sir Marco Polo has been saving our friend group. We have a girl's Marco polo we ve just been on it. Not Stop about just video messaging. Until my mom to get I answer, I will say that this is a line up and a male female way. The way I thought it might cause the most. The meetings of men in the zoo meetings. The guys are the very emotional about that. This whole thing down, there's a lot of fear, their shit, be it is a real threat of course. Now, of course, we have a different opinion, which is totally fine, which is, I don't believe you need fear tat, do all the right things
But it's not. The other thing is. I think you are complaining, two things you you think, because people are talking about it and talking about stats and being knowledgeable, that there's panic and that doesn't seem a hundred per cent fair I dont think that is panicked to be up to date and know everything you have said, like I don't think, there's reason to just like be watching the news. and like getting out information, but there is a wide, don't ya. I died. We disagree on that. I think a lot of people. I know our glued to CNN their glued to twitter, their glued to insert they're getting all day update, which I dont think is healthy, you wanna, get informed schedule on our night that you're gonna watch your show, you're gonna learn the end of the day. All the updates so you're well informed. You dont have to spend all your waking hours doing it. You can do it in a scheduled slot, so that doesn't overtake megawatts thoughts that were expressed
It wouldn't work for you to watch CNN all day. That would make you feel pan and nor are you are. You are totally wanted the first couple days I did it. I compare it to people's endless obsession with tromp on the left or they just like hand aided enough they gotta eat at all day long and they gonna talk about all day long. I personally disagree with that notion of living, but why do you have to disagree with that? the whole. I can't you just say I personally that doesn't work for me, so I'm not going to do that, but to say that other people shouldn't do it that doesn't seem helpful cause. You don't know what it's doing for them. It could mean giving them a sense of control that they need in a world of chaos right now it could be providing them something that they need. It could be. There's no studies for us to know yet, but there are other studies on other topics were. I believe it creates anxiety for protracted period
the time, as opposed to just dedicating an hour to worry about it. Knowing what you should do, the next steps for tomorrow, oh, but sitting around, watching the death toll in the ticker tape. I just can't imagine how that's possibly helpful, but it is actually a my opinion because here, debating whether you're gonna go on a walk with someone and walk. One foot away from them or six feet. If you add just watch CNN, you might be like I'll. Take the extra precaution if I'm gonna go the grocery store today, all bring wipes with me. If I, haven't, been watching CNN and probably not doing their rights or just circle back to what I think are a fundamental disagreement is I dont think you need that to be motivated, but I think maybe you personally need that to be motivated or you please believe. Other people need to be re. Many leave a lotta. People need knowledge to be motivated here and also how are they know how they know what to do if they're not paying attention. You can learn everything in a half hour this.
That's on tv, is about a half hour content spread out over twenty four hours, if What is it you're learning the same thing over and over again, then a new house come on down lemon tells you the staff in Anderson Cooper, just told you, and then Anderson tells you, the Sunday said, there's no real new information. There's a few data points. I come out every day, it can be learned in fifteen minutes and I hope people don't need to be fearful and scared to do the right thing. That's a pessimistic view of us. I think I just think it's a lot to ask people to not be fearful right now. It's ok to be fearful. I just that's just the truth: it's ok, there's a scare Three chaotic thing that we don't know what it's gonna turn into. There's also many unknown in so many factors and to ask people to not be scared of. That is not really in touch with human emotion. I mean that's what happens with or are you going
it's totally. What happens on the image feel guilty for feeling great cheerful. It really is just do you think he need fear to be motivated by. I don't think so, but you do and that's that story I just think its individual. I dont think you need it clearly adopt, and I believe that you don't, I don't think you're lying and I think some people needed- and there is probably a spectrum, but I really don't want to tell people how they should be handling. This cause rising of people right now overrun with anxiety, I may know when they feel anxious for those people. I would recommend that you schedule a time to get up dated four and don't spend all day doin it for those people who are feeling genuine, override anxiety and overwhelmed. That is, I think, that's a good idea. Ok, so you say there a high rates and identical twins of one being rain handed in one being left handed so in about twenty one per cent of identical twins pairs, one twenty right handed in the other is left handed or amber dexterous
the twenty percent. So since identical twins share identical genes, this is evidence that handedness is not totally genetic trade. There's a subset of identical twins called mirror image. Twins mere imaging and twins occurs when the fertilize ovum separates later than usual. Some time between seven and twelve day, after fertilisation, they may have hair worlds, that wind in opposite directions and moles or other skin markings that are identical alone. On the sense I mean a body tat in a few cases of mere damaging one to win, may display scientists in various or the position of internal organs is on the side opposite to their usual placement. The heart is on the right, rather than on the left. For example, you know some boys erections curved the right or the left. I wonder if the mere twins boys boner goes to the right and then, as you know, the Ngos that are now having foreigners in that feed us, and now I would certainly not
but if it's growing mirror image, we need more deep, How can one other, thereby boner studies all look into? That could be a fastening, in broad put that on the year that you could actually ok is. She said survival of the fittest which she was gonna, think Darwin even actually sad survival of the fittest, which was coined not by Darwin but by the philosopher Herbert. Spencer, Herbie Spencer is widely misunderstood. According to their Darwin did not consider the process of evolution as the survival of the fittest. He regarded as survival of the FED her because the struggle for existence is relative and thus not absolute good distinction. Darwin yeah he's smart still with us.
The tune of fifty eight years old this year, my good friend of approving he was the figure he took. The sorcerer stun yes have even giving up with Harry Potter as your kids are reading. I know your message now. I know I know I love My shoe lover. I wanted to send you to Hogwarts apparently wishes like my seizure, Evan back in my book. in a way that I was like living like popcorn truly every now and then a pardon me feels lake with what's happening. Right now is real that I'm like living in my seizure sure that I'm still the seizure and then soon all come out of it. But right now I'm like this is what happens in a seizure, YO and also in the real life worlds. I'm seizing. So it's like a dream: I had a very similar experience. I wasn't
horrific rollover accident. When I was eighteen- and you know the car was flattened, I was in the back of told you the story that glass blew out. I should have been a ejected and I just walked out of it. I remember being at a like a high school party two days later and I was at the party and I just kept thinking- I think, I'm dead. I don't think you can, survive that right and I don't think I'm letting go. Yeah, and I have this pervasive feeling that I wasn't letting go for at least a we re. I convinced I was dead. It just didn't add up. Yeah I've had that a few times a few thoughts like. I wonder if this is real or if my brain is skit saying and on that why it's happening, and then I was thinking like oh well. If that's true, I hoped I get to live out some sort of wonderful man to like a hog words like I get to actually go there, something during the siege. Were you in love with turns pause now, when you re in the books, like did you,
want him as of now? And now you do, is not my favorite character in the books, who is a serious black, as my favor character, herlews, serious block. I don't. I don't know because an in wizards can live like really old. I guess my question: did you have a boyfriend in that story? Like someone you Why? Why did her love serious black? I was like hot for him I mean. Maybe it wasn't me he was like so mysterious, embrued eying and whose misunderstood, but he did what he did, the right thing we will hear for Harry Yak. I will air misunderstood. Speaking of my boy friend, so I watched contagion twice. Two days in a row and I'm dying to watch it again, only watch it with me again. Oh my god. I love those celebs Roger tonight. I love did so much. I have ever seen eggs, oh my god, and It rose this second in the Warner, brothers, library after Harry Potter com. This all began to everyone's watching it it's so
oh god, my boyfriend's n, it he's wonderful and hot and even though he is in the middle of a contagion he still hot and ok. So I was obviously of I was scared because of the contagion, but part of the contagion in movie. Is they have seizures? So I saw a bunch of people having seizure, noble, went home and I did not lie lie that part. I really did not like. There was so much foam coming out of their mouths and it was spewing out. Oh wow, spittle tat in the movie, and I was like that must be so exaggerate. I knew. I had a little bit of farms. So then I asked Christine if it was exaggerated and she said no. I said I had that much foam and she said yes are we.
Turkey is known, exaggerating. I think she would exaggerate on the other side of she was gonna exaggerate. So I think that was true. Overlooked horrible. Also going to powder Caesar on it and she that is like no. She had a lot of trouble. I'm saying that is the most ego is acting I've ever seen because it looks disgusting, she's so ready in that movie, and then she has a horrible Caesar and she dies quickly. Sorry spoiler, but it is like the first two minutes of usually users, whether before you won't mind using words, but is it so early on and solely on? If you see the poster, you can tell she's half dead on the poster anyway. So then I had to talk to me their past about this. The reasonable sharing this is in case. Anyone. has something similar. I was feeling like. I wonder if people
you or other people are getting annoy aid that I'm still talking about it around questions about it, I'm looking into it still, and sometimes I I've fear that that's bothering you or bothering other people she said, but first of course, you're gonna have anxiety like so be it normal, if you weren't having anxiety about it and to, of course her asking a bunch of questions in your still thinking about it and your trying to figure it out because you weren't there for them You had an experience that you weren't, therefore, and euro lying on other people's information from blue to integrate them since to your brain and your body, so yeah you're gonna have to ask a lot of questions and continued to, and I really like that, the nation of while going on here,
never mind when you talk about it, because I think you and I often fall into this very well worn male female dynamic witches guys want to try to solve The problem when they hear someone say something: it's not our nature to think O. Our job is just to listen and to commiserate in let the person know that they ve been seen and heard. We take it as we gotta solve this, Are you so it doesn't happen again. So quite often, when you're scared, I jump right into let's do ex wife Z, so that you're not scare. But even that movie out, I would say, while you're dealing with this fear of it, don't want that movie. You know that would be part of my suggestion that such a movie, I know, but that's where my head goes, is I dont like that you're uncomfortable and I want to prevent you from being uncomfortable, so I'm gonna think of a lot of ways that this won't happen again.
It, but it sounds like probably often I'm not either sympathising with you or empathizing with you, but but really. I don't. Either of us are following its very male female thing that I know I have to work hard against. It's just. My first instinct is to try to come up with a solution ray. I understand that, of course the hard thing is for me to is that the real is in a solution. I am on the best solution. I can beyond right now and I'm doing man there's somebody on the right. You know what the future holds. I don't know what the future holds exactly and I don't know if I'm gonna have a Another one I'm I'm hopefully now, but I could and the more I to people the more it's like yeah you. You could, Hopefully you all, you could and you know I guess, then I have to work through okay. So if I do, what does that mean? You know, and then it's just a whole did so
I can already it's funny cause even alike knowing what you're looking for here is exactly where my immediately went to, which is here's. What I know about you, and what you know about you. You are OCD you're, very obsessive, compulsive person. Doktor drew pointed out. You conceded that Is that your nature? It? Your superpower, makes you such a great worker and a great editor in a great everything, but your obsessive compulsive person, and I don't think you should research. I think that's your obsessive compulsive, so I'll be quick to go. Stop reading the stuff you have a doctor who you must trust who's in charge of this listened the doktor, don't obsessively research this that whole issue aside, which I'm not dismissing or not taking serious it all, is gonna, be proud
says by this human being you and let's get you to the best version of yourself of process. Sure that's! I dont a hundred percent agree with that. Not research I mean I do think like googling is not helpful. The time, but I do feel that this There is now a condition I have an. I do need to be educated on that. I need to know what it means. What the triggers are what I mean this is this again. This is parallels old, but what we were talking about earlier, like I feel, more, confirm when I know ok, I'm with the right things to prevent something like this from happening, and it might still happen and that's fine, but I don't wanna just baby, be walking around blindly, drinking a bottle of wine. Now I know that's not a good idea. You know, I think it's so what you said is absolutely logical, defendable winnable in a court case, but I'll point now, when something is wrong with your car, something's wrong with a steering. You take it to the mechanic. The mechanic says
Yes, and then you you allow them you don't research, your car for three hours on the internet. You got all the mechanic knows, and I trust him her and that's that in there's a million things like that. That you don't research, you just trust the professional and this thing, even though you ve got who are the top one hundred neurologists in the world at your disposal? You're still do supplemental research, which I would just argue would be like you reading a tunnel, steering components. What're you gonna, learn mechanics overnight from Google. Now sure you can read twenty articles at make make you feel like you have learned that. But if your deal with two
best, neurologists on the planet. I think you can leave it at that yeah personally, Vassili you're, saying oh good things for hearing me new anyway, so sad passes, it is scary, is powerless, but I think you know proved this. What this whole episode was about, but is the immense value of french yeah, yes, and I think all of us have the capacity to really go in directions that until we say it out loud to smart, we trust yeah. You know you can all seem quite real yeah glad to be on this journey with you figure in this, I am glad to be a party or life that feels stable and