Monica Lewinsky is an American anti-bullying ambassador to the Diana Award’s Anti-Bullying Programme, on the advisory board of Project rockit, founding board member of The Childhood Resilience Foundation and contributing editor to Vanity Fair. She sits down with the armchair expert to discuss overcoming trauma, cyber bullying and her experience being publicly labeled as a negative archetype. Monica talks about being an upstander and Dax is impressed by Monica’s resilience. The two discuss chasing and breaking patterns, public shame and the ways in which they both seek safety.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome. Welcome, welcome, Monica, don't be threatened. We have another Monica today it's going to get really comfy Monica gas, but third Monica in the AE, nor the errors. Fear. Yes, yes, Monica Lewinsky is an american activists, she's a television personality and she is also Anti Boeing Ambassador to the Diana Ward Anti Bowling Programme and on the Prizery Board of Project rocket and of course she is here specifically because October. Is national bullying prevention month, though she is making the rounds to spread the word on that, which is a wonderful thing to bring attention to, and this is just an incredibly wonderful interview tons of honesty and vulnerability, emotional openness, I admire her tied me to fur sharing
her experience in her story and hopes that other people can be. I feel good grandmother, Eddie Brave it is, but this is just really or one of the more beautiful conversations we ve had and we thank her a ton for coming into. Please enjoy Monica Lewinsky we are supported by by. Oh farms, would a pleasure. It is to tell you about the greatest eggs ever created. You ve heard me talk about vital farms, eggs for a while. So you know that these are good eggs. They could better, they look better, but when you choose vital farms, your dollars go towards good. That extends why beyond just what's in your refrigerator, but of arms ends. There pasture raise unlike cage, free, that's horse shit there, not crime, in the end or warehouses, vital farms. Hen spend their days on pastures, with tons of space and Sunshine Hannan around it's good for the farmer, but of arms has built a network of famine
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I do wonder when you're like just asked benign questions I feel like. I would at this point, if I were, you would be just he's looking for the little bit of leading this of it like you feel, really like do you have your guard up on some level when you're just conversing, like someone's, you probably going to try to lead you somewhere? I think a totally depends. So if I feel comfortable in this situation, a great now I feel comfortable though I came in, I felt comfortable with Monica And, and by the way, my like the first monarch, Monica Mamma you how my heart are always had honour, I was thinking I'm not in the attic, though we did alive, show tat, certainly attic. First, ok, I've become good reading people. I think most people who ended as public people and having to be yes, also add like trauma survive
oh yeah goods fighting senses so that they are not the only other. You know this is a sort of nonsense literate. Someone said to me: I saw them common in New York was amazing a few weeks ago, and she said something to me about how people who have survived trauma. They can't be okay unless everyone else is okay, in the room. I feel like that's how they feel safe is that everyone else hey, and I was like. Oh that's one hundred percent me meaning like if they're uncomfortable with your trauma, you feel the need to put them at ease about it before you or just know. I think it's just a layer, it's just kind of a layer of how people operate in the world, so not even necessarily people being comfortable with my trauma, but I don't feel safe unless everyone else feels comfortable. I got you, some people might come into a situation and and think okay. How do I need to feel safe?
like here's. What I need the duty to do for me, it would be. I need everyone else to to feel. Ok Ryan order for me to feel safe in a situation has, for you is fear, really contagious. Let's say: there's warm words hockey, any notice rob is over there like can he's shaking and he's he's got pinched Are you going to take that on? Are you going to go o just c's go? do something. I knows what I totally take it on like day, I went on a job interview once where the person was, who is interviewing me. More nervous and I was wet so all their nervous, tics started coming out and initially I was reading. It is sort of this person kept scowling and it's like I'm saying the wrong thing. I'm never going to get this job. Did you? Do eventually. I realized nervous tics. So I thought okay, so now I've got to make this person feel comfortable, which exhausting
in general is a good idea. So I keep rediscovering all the time like I'm. Never, assuming that the person thing is their issue right. It's got to be all about me. Cuz, I whole world is about me and I'm at the center of the universe, but I must object. yea I gotta get so ninety plus percent of us walking around or solely thinking of ourselves, or responding to our own thoughts and fears in the other person. Is it really even in the equation other than that they set off this? You know dominoes of fears in that purse. Right like it, takes a very healthy, confident person to feel that way. I just aspired to have that feeling all right betting on people's when I hear what it is their behavior, but either way you know, I don't know if this all makes sense, but so he did you a lot of work over the years a round. My relationship to material things. I'm not real hoarder capital h, but sort of I like to joke. I had clutter for my decluttering,
I mean I know, and I worked over the years with somebody who has actually background in psychology- and it's been an amazing process to sort of sea, as things have changed, for me things, I'm ready to let go of me, but I have as one experience where I was helping friends of mine move because they were remodeling and it was like. Why do you have this case of unopened in a bar? jars for jam that you're gonna pay more money storing than you could just buy it again universe. No, no, no! No. We have to keep those in broken things and all those things, and so I had this experience where I was able to. I could see because I had no attachment. I have no energy towards these things. How easy it was for me to think about letting go of them
rising them away to live a better, be objective, a ride, a hole and so anything as opposed to my own shit, which I had. I had a story about everything and had to tell that story, and I think that pennant reflection away what you're saying about just those two very different positions: yes, your material stuff, both Monica, could maybe bond on this Monica shared with me that when life is feeling particularly chaotic or out of her control it very soon, act she can take control of is finding something she likes pain for taking at home and makes one Regrettably there I can. I can in that moment have the thing I want when there are other things in the world that I want that I can't have sure. So it's just a quick way to get some yeah role at last for, like an hour away when you get that, do you do the return thing Then you get a whole different set of
Chemical over the return of lay had high like losing way right at the exact. I actually don't do that, because I believe, as I too lazy to go back to the source of an average of them for your good solution. You have gone. Some brilliant economies could actually put a number on what part of the economy is to serve a seamless cycle. Bring people knew of returning them all, so an example would be. I had every single article that I read for my masters thesis like I kept everything. Even if I didn't cited in my paper, I still had it here and That was really connected to start of all the anxiety I had around people thinking I was stupid.
And so it was the safety or all these books that I bought when I was in graduate school that he never fucking ready. You know, and it was later on creased on the thing, but look look, I'm smart, I'm sorry, I'm not a dumb bimbo, yeah and eventually, in the last few years. Eventually, I was sort of in a place where you like. I actually don't really need these any more, which is fascinating. So I think I had read in one of those declaring books about that. We keep things has were afraid, we're not gonna be provided for in the future, and so that was really interesting to me. But I agree that the shopping higher than control aspect that yeah, I think I have thought of it. That way, but that would a hundred percent be me. I feel like a twin. Do you effort telling that party your story? because I have somewhere in our garage, huge milk crates of every single story. I wrote in college like every essay, I wrote in all the research and everything is similarly because I have a big hang up about. I'm not dumb and never one thing, some dumb kid you're not done
the other day, though I said it's not rational, so I'm and could come out of the ground. He couldn't stand in TAT me on the shoulder and go you're the only person to have been as smart as meat and planet earth, still need everyone's approval. You know what you can't bring logic to bear on a fear of being dumb or any of our fears. Really I mean I guess there is some cognitive behavioral therapy. Steps you could take, but just in general your fears aren't rational. To begin with, I think there is an element of healing and shifting it kind of happens and then maybe you're ready to have somebody help you try to alleviate. That fear I agree that I don't think just because if you have a fear and somebody sits down and says to you really shouldn't have that fear or that that's gonna now, oh no bay, but I also think too that you know that there are a lot of fears that come from,
I described it. I don't know that you know my trauma. Psychiatrist would agree, but I've been nicer to think with traumas like we kind of each create our own file folders, we make our decision on how we started like traumas right, so you and I could have the same traumatic experience but we might fail them indifferent, folders jar ways rank is useless, siblings and Tom yeah exactly, and so I think sometimes what happens to as they will sort of sea that top fear. We may not even recognising our cells that actually it's connected to all these other fears that have happened, and so it may seem logical to someone else, but it's really nice to us, because it's based on Right- these other experiences we ve had to sell. But it's like geology, it's just another layer on top of another layer, intervene only for you get down to the foul ingredient are there so many other things and between the right. So you grew up here. Roughly right, Brentwood issue
I was born in terraces go and then I was raised here in actually better else. Ok though, and am my parents divorced and my dad moved brat burden? Ok, what were you and they divorce? I was fourteen. I don't know there's an ideal time. I would say, though, that I am grateful to have gone through that three cuz I didn't like pie for my dad her plan for him. I was like I don't know he wasn't here and still not here fourteen, when your life is the most turbulent, you have new hormones. Your people are dating there. If you are getting attention for things, maybe not an ideal time for disruption. It was more painful in some ways for me, because I think I lived with an illusion of how I wanted my family to be a mean. I was by all kind of markers. I had a great upbringing and wonderful pair
ensign. I've been amazing, younger brother and never worried about a roof over my head or food on the table so very privileged that way, but I also think that my parents are two wonderful people who are not match right and that was pretty ready are to be around, but I think also pretty self evident even now when people meet them they're kind of like how are your parents Mary, no right, they both bring great things that numerous Author is another and your father was reason on colleges, yeah, so Exley. She was an urban planners before she had kids and then she became pennant, led parent and my dad is still a practising radiation on college est in his story. There's a lot of talk lately about inheriting trauma which
is starting to get more more compelling the presiding like when you talking about, but not an it's getting more compelling, but I dont needs a relevant that your father is first generation of a family that fled nazi. Germany, has Jews and then went to where else Albert or somewhere, exact Miranda. Now then, and then and then came here so at fort. So he came here at fourteen right, so he had to have inherited from his parents a very realistic fear to your point of not having enough in the future that you might not have enough in future in room even worse, you might be having to escape someplace in the future light. Once that's a part of your world view, I dont know how you shake that. I think to probably that the way it also really shape me as the kind of germanic background and I think that kind of german jus identity- it's like your German before your jewish Roger knows there were other cultures, your jewish identity. You may lead with that. There is this. I am appealing in a budget of which you can factor. I well
How to make mistakes lyrics, let you know encouraged it's a saying of the tallest poppy, shut off first version of that, and so that was I was kind of raised with one parent who that was there. You know don't make, Northern Ireland in high, don't try to be special, and then I had another parent who came from russian background, but my grandma I was brushing but raised in China, and then my mom was actually raised in Tokyo and my aunt was born there. So I have this very eclectic family Brown and I think from my mom's side. It was very much about trying to find your specialness
yes and so, and she lost her dad at a very early age that she was fifteen. So both my parents had these big life changes at fourteen and fifteen. My dad moving from his home country of El Salvador, was born to german parents and my mom losing her dad when they were living in Tokyo. It was kind of always these conflicting messages which really played into my self worth and self esteem that was low view from a young age, then what we would just label generically as a romantic? Are you good at whip fantasies? Oh yeah, living in a fantasy? Yes, in the last few years, the it's just started to become really clear to me. Around a lot more brokenness that I had a much younger years. Research makes sense as to why I sort of already like the boy in Kenya right right, that's something I feel like. We have in common is that I was very early on very active in my pretend my men
nation the roles I was playing and obviously to escape things that I not enjoying and prematurely very interested in. Girls lost my Virg at twelve in the seventh grade. You know, like always very sexual, always in two falling in love like for a seven gray. I was listening to dog for his over and over again and all the new wave music, and I just wanted to be like run over by steamroller with love. I think very much for me, it's been especially the last few years has felt a bit like memento, where I just got a full. Why would I have made those choices at that point like that, makes no sense for fourteen year old to do that right? There must have been something but That kind of I go k, but I was also doing nodded this age in this age. ice age and why why? When I was thirteen that I have a boyfriend that I broke up with, because I thought it wasn't real cuz we didn't fight,
I'm in your background, when we have some schedule, okay Let us not Monica instrument I go. Was someone trying to hide her identity, desperately mostly white community, of Duluth Georgia, him yeah hearts? I mean those hard stuff and I guess I don't know I've never thought of it in the terms of trauma before, but there's always hide stuff. Relax hides in tents? But I think that at the end and actively tried to downplay who you are from the get go, is very stressful and dramatic. I do personally but Elliot, yeah I'll get back to you. So this notion, like this, isn't real we're not even fighting is that either modeled on your parents, relationship with you are observing or-
are you watching movies by which you that high water mark of being in love like we're word, is the notion even come from the Christian? Probably both in both their lot of behaviour? Is that I engage in which drive me crazy and even when I think they like. Oh, I ve thereupon this out, I'm not going to do this again, I more mature and then you catch or something you like wow here, our again. I'm doing this thing that I thought I would never fucking do, and I'm doing it gave me, but I think the other part of it the comes without which is interesting, and I dont know if you ve experienced this, which is their sort of that site of you, which is sort of stays with it or his tenacious or doesn't give up which can drive. You crazy in certain situations is also the thing that saves. You is also the thing. That's part of your resilience, well, you so that you know you keep showing up you get out of bed, all of those things and
that's where it's one of the things in in this lasting with the therapist I've been with for the last five years. That she's really gotten me to see if they're trying to recognize. You know all these things that I would beat myself up with that. There can be this side, which has helped me survive, and so I need to hold both of them and as much as I made to stain some aspect, the thing I have to respect the other tale? I totally agree, I think all your character. Defects are the opposite side of the coin of some virtue. You have an unjust, always trying to minimize the downside of these attributes. Hannah you know bolster the good sides of it fantasizing in creating fantasies. I think for me It's a way to regulate your emotions because you're not comfortable and whatever emotion, you're. Having current and so, when you engage that gear to go into Peter PAN
and you know it's a way to correct your own biochemistry night and your brain. So it's like a very useful survival. Lee thing you do, I think, I think, underneath everything with some sort of fantasy is actually hope. There's Strange, alchemic, combination of emotions, when has when you have to survive something painful, whether that's just a breakup or broke conciliation would have. You know, sort of that the EU needed little bit of denial. You've got to have a little bit of resilience, but then there's also the pain that you're feeling the way. I do think that sometimes what can happen is that it is a self preservation mode that you're some part of you recognizes. I actually can't contain this much pain. In this moment. I have to cha
I think a little pieces for his associated or do something tat exactly I live. I wanna make once they because often I'll say this way too late so generously. This would have been a great preamble, which is you and I will talk about things today. We will talk about our shortcomings in our failures and we will attempt to explain how they came about, which is in no way to excuse. the thing that you and I have done. That's regrettable- how it is going to be very clear and anyone that listening that we're on a path of this is how we got from eight to see Ray is in my no means saying we have no Cobo build the intervene at Sea Sab salute later, but I want to say that no, no, I don't I'm glad you didn't. I think that's that's really important. I think what becomes challenging for sensitive public conversations is that you'll have peace. all using the same language for two different reason. A hundred percent, though I think you could have somebody who might come out and say,
whatever they're admitting to and they're really trying to help people understand and it's a part of a process of owning their culpability. But you can also have- therefore, exactly like pr peopled and I think we're in times where whether they real is it or not? People feel that they sent that they don't quite know how to identify it. But I do think we say that a lot.
The creator. I've got a spine, yes aligned does. I think you said spy, I love it gets by by some. Are we thoroughly recommend everyone? Listen to? It is called get US wine and the show creator and runner of Community Dan Harmony and harmony who was later fired from his position, not for these allegations, but he was fire. He gives an apology to a woman. He sexually harass relate three years on his Maud CAS. It's like nine minutes long. and it's seven minutes long, it's incredible in a myriad of ways, and it is one to be distinguished as the right wait to own your stuff. You now so anyway said when we think about times were seems like bullshit and somebody out it's like a true a man's. In a true right inventory of your behavior, I think we can tell it like to think we can tell things that you have this interesting.
Ernie and I think no shit right, but now, but I think also to is that, as a woman, it's been very interesting to kind of observe. I think that there have been times re felt gosh. I still feel regret right I mean I, I will regret every day for the rest of my life and then I engage and behaviour which hurt a lot of people whose own not only my family, other people's families, like chaos for the countryside, there so much there and then there's also their times where I've also felt do. I have to keep them I am sorry because I'm a woman, you know that had already that men are kind of left, is sort of they say sorry. Once they're like Rome, I sense Aria. I'm done I dont need to process that. I don't need to think about that more. So I have made many apologies, and by the way, I'm making those amends because you're saying, like you still feel regret, I the aim for me has been to not walking
When I'm giving you my amends, I want to offer you an opportunity to tell me what I can do to make it better, and if I can, I will do that and if I can't I just couldn't, do it says not to say that I will not continue for the rest of my life to acknowledge that that was bad. But I am putting regret and shame away from my wife and I can't live with it cancerous in me to walk around always feeling, shame and regret. So I think we need a pass. Ports absolving Shin or whatever you you actually get in church. When you know like that, just you know. I admitted it in your absolved like it's over now they so part of me things. You should not be walking round, feeling, shame and regret over something that you apologize for Ross S in did all this stuff. Twenty odd years ago, Arthur almost thirty years ago, twenty twenty two twenty last August. Twenty last,
here I get real, confuses. I always think that the aids were twenty years ago and they remain Morty yours. But I didn't want you know what I think is helpful. Is the icing people came to know you at a certain age and a certain situation, and I would imagine people never stop to go. I wonder who the person was before that, so I do want to quickly just say who the person you are before that, so you grew up in Beverly Hills and dad did relocate to Brentwood, and you went to a couple overnight: schools you'd, like a prop school, so I passed around the lie. I went to a radio fur kindergarten. Then I went to John Thomas die in Belarus for a few years, then, to half a million then to Beverly, then to beller prep wits in irish laugh is quintessential allay because it was in West Hollywood only now have brought you know, apparently out and then it be name some of their name and it was closed and then I read Beller brought by not you are
up embellish exactly hotel. If that's the whole point Oleg, I went to Miller for him. Take me: fancy college and you're, going to Beverly Hills, high backlog of her, how many years, three years, three years, yeah. Ok in those recently at the time of Beverly Hills. Little to exactly I mean it was a very. I always joke that kind of never fit in in L a because, like I'm a brunette, my books are real so it's lay our directive. There was in a static that was price in the school and, let's not forget, I was chubby, always struggled with my weight, and so particularly you know. It's so interesting. I had thought a long time that I had gained all this weight. So I struggle with my weight when I was in grade school, but then I sort of got a handle on it and my freshman year, when my parents separated I put on fifty lb and it always for years it was connected to my parents getting divorced, but one of the things that I sort of came to understand in the last several years we didn't have language, for
I had actually had an unwanted sexual experience and fourteen which weighs right this summer right before my parents had separated and were you taking the approach. I've heard this were people who have been sexually assaulted want to never be sexually assaulted again, so they try to make themselves invisible to men. Who would want to do that Could you very conscious of the? I think the psyche is so complex that fucking clever idea do so. However, I think that there is this element that may have been possible, but the and some very deep level, but I was still interested in boys right. It could be true, you can of goals. You can have one
in writing taking actions that are in complete opposition to them in there's no logic moments in the day you feel strong in their moments, leave your weaken, Rincon different plans and those are behind in economic that up to making zero sense, but I'll be happening at once, and I think it was hard to unpack too, because it was the person stopped. When I said stop it, you know it's just like that. The consent wasn't a thing then, and I have Shrike this person, but there are certain things that were inappropriate about it, including like of of really big h deference in time and so for for many years, sort of like right. I was nineteen when I lost my virgin indian to do to get it, but technically I wasn't rail and road. I had always talked up my in a lot of the struggles I had in high school to my parents, divorce being contentious, but I think it is probably had a lot more to do with this incident that have and that I didn't even know how to classify it, and I think I made it all okay, because that was the easiest thing to do
it again there's and there's really no benefit to even isolating so one thing could have caused it to reach critical mass. Situation could have right cause critical mass rain, and I had- and I had struggled with, may wait before we can. I ask you this because, as a parent of two daughters, I question is alot because parents and allay our hyper aware of knocked triggering eating disorders, run out now. Could today now and I last myself, I it's very well intentioned and I think that in general doing the right thing, but at the same time I'm wondering how much of that was self imposed by you were seen around you in your social circling, your beer group and in school, and how much of it do, you believe was maybe imprinted on you for a moment that I think it was fifty fifty fifty fifty other there were a number of different factors. The wine was developed early, so I dont know why we don't have tests now for young girls and boys.
It's a sort of no chemically when they're going into puberty. Why we wait because it's like it starts before, but we started, don't consider it until their physical. The fact that there are no writer I have again to my office in my own theory, like that, the Chemical INA, the chemical change, my start earlier than necessarily the physical change, but we don't deem it puberty until we see the physical change I had whatever the priest, position for my weight issues. You know genetically, but then there is also a hit puberty earlier, so I was constantly comparing my body to other girls bodies who had this incredible metabolism who didn't have boobs yet or whatever that was, and so I think there were kind of those issues, but I also I read in a teen seventeen magically neuer. Why my red? Exactly always in a reading that I think I went on my first diet. It maybe
then her twelve young off it yeah so hard heartbreaking heartbreaking, because it's like I can't we just have that message of rural cave okay. However, we are armchair expert. If you dare We are supported by me and DNA Nvidia B B rang the Bell. I do I love them so much. We only talk about the dinosaur print. I love the diner prince so much for my favorite. I wish it were them every day which had nine pairs of them. They always have me a clean, crisp white pair. It looks nice on my skin, beautiful brown. Probably it's the most wonderful time of year. Halloween. Remember when planning your costume as a kid was like the most fun you could have pre Christmas and now that you're in
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I don't know if you guys saw Anderson Cooper, did this documentary few years. because being thirteen and he had access to all these thirteen year olds, phones or social behaviour, and the one thing that stuck with me was that kids were taking on average. A hundred and fifty pictures for war that they would post I'm not just broke my fucking heart and you're like what's the negative self in the hundred forty nine that they didn't choose. No, and that's like you know so I mean I think we see this kind of it's a strange thing now, where we stopped consumers so much more aware, re aware of kind of not body shaming their kids, aware of trying to teach nutrition in ways that are healthier in. At the same time, we have all sorts of other social aspects which are creating those problems,
making them even worse. At the very least No, you and I share something. That's very rare. I don't know that I've interviewed anyone that we both have associate degrees from Santa Monica College, transferring Roger you into losing chloride, Courtland. What I love about Portland was. I think that was where I feel like I found myself. I don't know if it was a combination of kind of now you know not get home, I'm in another city state and it's a very different environment, I got a lot from nature in Portland, people are real their research, if galleries being open late. So I felt like I found a lot more myself there, yet any major in psychology, cracked, and can I give you my anecdotal stereotyping? You can correct me if I'm wrong anyway, I found most. The folks in psychology were people who, like just desperately needed
there were like really need to figure out what was going on in their minds tat. I only just observed that seem like many people there were drawn to that major were like you know. He has probably not as I say the members or the way, it is actually very interested in the life of my friend, and actually it was probably morning in graduate school, so my graduate grievous in social site and I I saw me because I was older and now had had all these crazy life experiences. I saw more experiences in graduate school where I was learning and self analyzing me no of just understanding. It's like oh threatened identity. Ok I experienced bad or in a power, differentials, and you have so many different kinds of biases and understanding things. I'm sure there was some part of me that was interested in psychology beak.
You needed some healing, and hopefully you would figure out what is some firstly, to me just from what you ve only about your childhood and what not that you are both confident and in securing a thousand percent right. I was always lucky. I may think I went through some periods when I was much younger than I didn't have friends or aims bullied a little bit by bit by and large, I have always been good. friendship right. I've had friends by it. I think, particularly where men were concerned, Davis very insecure. There was a mental trick you did were was like you were in secure, yet you were somehow going towards men or, were you afraid, even approach men, I think, was probably strange combination of moments where I would feel old, but then my insecurities would it late. How I responded to reactions are two things that happen: did you you had boyfriends intelligence? He I'll be right. Yes, but
can also go along the way. We are well aware: no, no! No! It's this complicated making part of me. The self conscious parties like by white kind of sound like a big loser in oh my god, no, not at all ready hard, but May I have this body dysmorphic view of my whole bean, and yet I was so outwardly confident and I would talk to any girl and I would get them laughing to know. I did all these. things that are really counter intuitive tat, I felt rate, but then my trip was like: oh no you're, not ever get anyone with this sea to lead. With this personality like vagrants nag somebody you gotta get out there and I have a bowl horn of charisma or you're, not now mind you. I was an accurate on either assessment of might bring out of directive. My personality was or out unattractive, my physical was, but it was a weird paradox of feelings: verses, my behavior, yet you now that weighs highway, think kind. It goes back to that. You know
don't stand out, be special. There are not that was kind of always dichotomy of exactly, and I will always impacting my behaviour that way, but I had experiences where the popular boy would like me in high school, but then I also had experiences where somebody basically worse than standing me up kind of left me outside a theatre, because he saw his friend and walked away with his friend and didn't come back. I was in the heavier faizon and his mom had later said. He was embarrassed to be seen with you, which is fertile ground for when several years later, I think, when I wasn't DC getting this kind of attention from somebody who I'm not that girl
at the homecoming queen. I'm not the girl that the guy, like I'm the friend of the girl daylight, lay ass me yeah, yeah he's the ultimate prom can write oh right, whirl and any other way think it was, there were a lot of reactions. Behaviors I engaged and because if there is a part of me that was like oh, this is what that girl is supposed to do, because a lot of times you're not that person, especially when you're younger in your brains out fully developed and haven't, had life experiences, you want to be person you have a broader romantic narrative, your spinning and then there that, for that narrative to work, the characters within the narrative have to act. A certain way to hold up the sole right with you do have self esteem issues. It's not like people walk around with self esteem issues and think I'm so happy. I have these deficiency
on some level, you're kind of always looking for something to plug that feeling to assuage it got this internship. Did you have any interest in tax or we like others, is making a venture who wouldn't go right. Well, I was the psychology major and is the combination of a number of things that I ended up in the intern ship one was we had family friend whose grandson had done at your before I never even heard about it right. So he was said all be happy to give you a recommendation. I worked a whole bunch when an Iphone college and one of the jobs they had was selling men's neckties, and I had a customer who had worked on the Clinton campaign. Who then was no hired- and so he also was somebody who, and did me and then I wrote an essay about how, as the psychology major you study
find the individual and the White House is the mind of the country, and so I think that that also had an element. So I really was an interested in politics. Aside from the kind of cursory level like Odin election is happening, but there's a monkey thing that happens right like a prime How much is that we are aware of status at all times, and that is the pinnacle of status like that building is the most at Leyden piece of real estate in America, it is affected by except my environment, and so one of the things that I didn't expect to happen was to fall in love with the environment. There, it's beautiful there sissy like smells of eucalyptus, all real and there's just I'm very. We will and spiritual and theirs. I didn't know how to identify it at the time, but there is a very special energy there. I mean I'm sure that some of the finest people that ever lived
Their rating and decisions have been made that have effects in a millions and millions of people over hundreds of years, though, but I'm always looking at it from the outside here's what I How did the cynical side of my brain is always like this? I all growing up. I looked at Playboy love, my play boys. I had them in my luggage. My mom would find them to never say anything God, Playboy Mansion was it that Shangri LA, and I desperately wanted to be there. I got invited at some point up in, as I was pulling up in my I'll look at this place amazing, the yards incredible and then I was walking up around door. Knob seems to be broke, and then I went to design of these funds are from seventy nine and they dont work and no one's wash them, and only half the switches dont work in a right. It was this big, like shattering of my allusion, like the place was, is in general disrepair It was a kind of Grotius and, as I am damn it, and so I at the cynical bore my brains like,
Why didn't the White House, when they start noticing, like they're, not really but I'm relieved to hear that know? It is a bit of an Eden, the Armenian. If I go Minos like eucalyptus, I can promise you that the mansion did not write your neck, and I know it's not like this despair. If I didn't those women. I think there were in their release. If dynamics that were going on there, that surprised me. It was very interesting for me once a than shipped off to the Pentagon in one of the things I came to realize was how the common city of information was so different between these two parts of the government and at the White House. It was if I knew something- and you Didn'T- that was that was sort of made me more powerful exactly but at the Pentagon. If I know something and you don't, our boss might be up Schitt's creek, such aid is that we need a meal. All differ. Yeah very, very different culture in information was valued in different ways was hard to register.
that you were there at the waiter. Let me recently like hell imported into someone else's life from a weird way. It was I mean, and really it was supposed to be a pit stop underway to graduate school, though I wanted to get a Phd in friends, ex ecology and work for the F B. I sure but I have to mention there had to be a period that was totally Ellison Wonderland or something I think was interesting, for me, too, is that my first trip to DC had been It's my aunt and I remember we had passed by the old executive office building- and I remember thinking, oh my gosh, it's so beautiful, mountain, going to work every day, their right and then says I am low. That's a great logistical question, so I imagine it's a pain in the ass to get in and out of the White House is cumbersome to go to work there, d of the likely a lotta next or forty five minutes so as an intern. It's a pain because it have a temporary pass. So every time you come in and out like if to show your id and you get the temporary pink eye in turn passed when they be
employing and I had I had a permanent pass. I had a blue pass, which was covered exactly that's the third of the all access backstage pass, so I think that's kind of the that talk about status. That's the ultimate symbol in decent. Even if you have that, then you just literally of you park somewhere on the grounds of the White House and no, I didn't have a parking spot, nay, either either my mom drop me. I looked at her, so your mom relocate DC because you were going there. No so my mom cited the family, my grandma was the matriarch and we sort of everybody has to live in the same place, rather just sort of how it is, and so my aunt and her family He moved at EAST coast than my mom and my brother moved and, of course, that my grandma moved and then we all had my grandma lived in the Watergate, my mom lived in the Watergate. My aunt was living in the country, but she had appeared a tear. There's no authority just ended that that's happening. Do you work? It just happens everywhere, but while
But how can you so you were with mom yeah? Ok, I guess that's aware comprehended anyone's yeah. That's so I read a vast conspiracy. Looking all was that different events book. Yes, it was a book all about the scandal right prior to that. I think it is a very cursory understanding of what it all happened. Other than having been alive and lived in real time, I'm a big lefty Democrat. I loved Clinton. I was once we will go on like this is insane you can impeach someone over sexual stuff like what that, so I thought I was so intrenched in that camp. I think that's probably where my thinking stopped on all of it. I also very much real time thought that what was happening to you was horrendous thinking. Yes- and so you know I was- I was probably predispose because I was a liberal democrat to be on the side, I doubt you guys right yet I am I like to think objective enough. If I put myself into my
that of being on the right in order hating, the sky and think he's done all this others shady shit. So I can recognize why people were mad about it. I can recognize why they feel betrayed by that and it'll? Do that all those things I can totally recognize that, but I guess what I was unaware of and what at least this book suggest is. There was a conspiracy. There was a conspiracy to get him give any of perjury you have this woman, Linda Tripp, it's almost crazy to me that you actually know her and really happened. You, like, I, have heard those tapes but sitting here with you as a human being I it's hard for me to even comprehend. I mean talk about sort of like being exposed to your home truths. Have you re phone calls recording without your permission, lying just like. Oh no, I couldn't have said that see a transcript. It's like than you
You yourself how fucking said that about that all I would get in front of a bus for, and I am a catty bitch and it didn't it is seriously. I mean yeah yeah yeah at that time. Even at I don't know how old are you for the time? I was twenty two when the relationship started and twenty four, when the investigation started I would have any friend that you can fight in everyone needs that it is essential for our well being you have your public life. talk about in this by gas, and then you have your very personal stuff where you need era, all the members and staff, the shameful styles ain't, faxed Ain t, so we all have had best friends in any one- can imagine that our best friend in fact wasn't a best frightened and that our best friend was intending to write a book
about us in that our best friend was recording us and leading us in by all definitions in trapping us, I like to think everyone could identify. That is just a really horrendous act. One person that again, I bet if I was benevolent enough, I bet she has her own host of things she's. Overcoming I mean it's interesting that in these investigations you will basically it's cool to commit a crime in order to expose another crime and in fact, there's no crime we was what you guys did, but if we can get you to lie about it now we have an actual crime, so you're, taking one thing that starts, is not illegal. Having an affair sure shameful. All those things are true, maybe there's more on Paradis, but legally, not an issue, no one's going to jail for an affair, turn off are now recording someone in Maryland. Without their permission is a crime. Entrapment is a crime. There are all these crimes that basically got committed, and I still don't understand legally wife she could commit.
time and then the Justice Department. Those are hers as well we're not going to prosecute you for doing this illegal thing. As long as we can now get all those transcripts, and now we can use those transcripts to I mean I think that's that's. A issue. I have the hypocrisy of the system stepping outside of whatever happened to me it just. How can we say this behavior is wrong and should be punished, but that same behavior should not be if you're going to help us get someone get with the fact that the interrogator is allowed a blatantly lie. Maybe I just talk your friend my how the fuck is LA exactly are plea bargains I mean it's just the whole. You have to do something to get out of this. I've been I've now got to choose a bad option to get out of this. So faint, it's crazy to me that things can work that way.
Now. Last year they bunny, I mean yeah yeah, I was an episode of again was really really good thanks, it's really hard to do so. I can imagine I've just kind of referencing that, because they think that there is a very broad scope of peace, all from that time frame who were interviewed and that the goal of the series was to really map out all of these different perspectives and narratives that were unfolding real time for us there that we didn't have the perspective to see back to you and of all the places where stories were, people's narratives were being braided together that we didn't realize or in those things so, but I go. I don't know that everyone is aware of the fact and technically that there was a polish Jones case going right. Right starts with a sexual harassment case and knowledge owns against Bill Clinton Raid and the goal was to give to subpoena
but to get them in their so that they could then asked questions that would potentially put him in a position to lie about other stuff. I believe now, and I think that there were a number of different motives that were going on for various people alighting who were operating on that side. Some exactly. As you just said, we're kind of looking at a bigger picture of how do we basically set a perjury trap and fur everybody made. Many of us think I would never lie under oath, but we also live in this country where we have these puritanical views about and almost yeah. You know asking someone about their sex life under oath is almost always approached trap. You know, like Jerry's Seinfeld me this great joke about during that time, where he said. No everybody lies about sex. If people than my about sex, no one would have sex. Honeybees are easy, I think sometimes people don't remember
I didn't choose the step forward to talk about this. I in fact got into trouble because I signed a false affidavit so trying to deny that there was a layer where people didn't understand the level of detail that came out That was also not my choice. To share that. I heard you share that legally, I was legally asked end in fact had to give even more detail because of certain ways that other people chose to testify, because everyone's trying to male down what sexual relations mean, so they them feel justified in hearing
we single detail of every single thing than ever happen that I welcome the reality is that there was not truth told no matter what the definition of sexual relations was right, wrote that whole thing of like who does this count? Is it you does it doesn't it it doesn't matter, given everything else that happened? Yes, I've said before I never understood buyer how this became about oral sex, because that wasn't just what happened and when I get into a lot of the details. I think that was a big part of shame that I ended up having to carry for a long time as a young woman being labelled as somebody who is engaged in this servicing relationship. Right wasn't mutual there's, so many things happening do at once. One of them is like the legal issues on one of them is an impeachment trial, and then I would imagine on an emotional level. Is you to point you didn't meet someone in an alley hooker.
Bow you're in a emotional relationship was only for a while that is now being reduced to the right is now being examined through a lens that nobody I mean, like you know me when your first start dating someone you're like what we've done. this many times. I know it's a strange way to not only as one self to try to analyse something or on packets, but even more bizarre to have other people talking about some, which is normally so private data. Even as someone who is very vocal, we out loud about my sexuality and staff, and I was a kind of hyper sexual. I still want someone or what account for every remove iron may or to take it from you that in our agency yeah, you know, I mean that's part of consent in it in a in a very different way, as sort of in a what we choose to share about ourselves and what we choose to keep private and with whom we share those aspects of ourselves. Now. The one thing that I am am deeply interested in about the room
Do you were on. I just can't imagine the highs and lows just hourly and daily in the stress on your body in the cortisol in the in all those things is much is like you or trying to prevent the worst thing from happening. Was there any relief in it? Finally, just being fuck it great it's all over, I'm the devil it's over. I dont have to like when you have a secret and you're gonna keep a secret yeah. You know stressful secret, that I ever you know. Yes, I may have confided in some of my friends, but this was not something I ever would have talked about Papa Of course not. I don't think anyone in the world thinks The many accusations that have been me and levelled at you? I don't think I've ever at least heard someone suggest that you were trying to become famous or get attention of the house
oh really trying to get attention when I make money I think what's interesting? Is I think that entire situation triggered? something that no one's really going to talk about witches. You know, I don't know what the data was that year, but let's say it was probably fifty percent of all people in marriages are being cheated on one way or another, so you become the face for anyone. Has had a spouse, stray an you now become an embodiment of that hurt and pain and betrayal, and all that stuff I mean, I call myself a social canvas. I think the thing is: is it this story triggered so many archetypes for us. I think it was not just one narrative. I think there were a lot. Year was privileged upbringing. My weight- I was you know torn apart, for my looks so I mean that the sweat shaming, so whether it ended the affair, the fallen woman, so I mean they're just what we were kind of living in times. I think we're objectivity was
does not really present. I mean just diving along the lines. It's interesting to me. People will point out to me now we're. How could people thought you were dumb? You had an internship and the White House. right right or will they did with called it stupid? Bimbo I mean I have like serious trauma from when I was in grad school. I couldn't get up and present in front of us As you know, you rascally initially about how I judge people when people ask me a question when I was in grad school, I was so it's such impostor syndrome. The any time somebody asked me a question. I thought that they were actually trying to trick me, Dorothy did. I know the answer you know I was afraid to get help. Writing an essay, because I thought it would expose me that I should have known something you know is right their country being a year long story, but also because of legal reasons. I couldn't speak publicly, so I was
every one dimensional for people living. I was so young. There was nothing else to hang an idea for me on what had I been before I worked in the White House. A student realistic runaway me, lad yet again not to excuse my poor choices, but there were also a lot of people who were invested in making sure that the president didn't lose his job, and that meant that there were narratives that had to be spun, run out the robber stories and lighted. Those people didn't know me and there were lots of people who knew me well, who no problem engaging in that kind of behavior. So You lived the scarlet letter. You know a perfect a book about how we need to deal with issues of judgment and shame and all that stuff was a heightened book to make a point and then what your real life experience was way beyond what that book that so overnight. Obviously
you're on tv all the time you are, as I've heard. You say before: maybe I'm John Oliver, even if you want to escape and watch, tonight. Show you're gonna, then see jokes about yourself endlessly. There was really no escape at all. From that. I wonder during that period is your family, the core? the only place you can go and feel remotely, like yourself My family was all I had so I couldn't talk to most of my friends until after they had to bide. So I mean I don't think I would have survived without my family But we were, I know how to talk to my brother. You aren't you now for a long time. So what was the reasoning behind now to protect him legally? Ok, so that he wouldn't be called in the air yeah and he was a sophomore in college, and that was rough for him. I assume yeah yeah
when we talked earlier when you just got in here as like, there's your own guilt and then there's the guilt of having affected the other people in your life, who you love so much kind of got them saw him do a whole time bright, and I mean it's it's one of the reasons I am so unbelievably grateful for all the changes that have happened last few years is that its people stop my Doktor Scott, my dad in the hall and say something positive or some one will have said something positive to make and it at work, and you know that, alongside kind of whatever history might be told in a cloud teacher show my TED talk. You mean it's pretty interests just unbelievably meaningful for me, a hunter Brazil and you know I've got it- needs a nephew whom I adore, and they also have my last name right. One of the most profound things I heard you say,
He was, I think, was on John Oliver. He said you know at any point, did you decide to change your name and your response was: did Bill Clinton have to change his diaper cuz when he asked that question was like yeah lever fuckin finding on it. exactly the same language goes monitors longed for biogas- lungs, yes, but I was on that train of thought re. Your answer exposed to me how my first line of thinking will be one that was pretty much raising patriarchy, that that's what I I don't even considered. That lay out, of course, Bill Clinton and have to change my name, but elsewhere too, I think there's you know that there were other layers of it like more logistical complications like particularly at the time. I had gone to the courthouse and tried to sign legal papers changing my name that would have ended up in the press that then it would have been less prince. You know, you know Sally.
Smith, formerly known as the winds rhino or so then. What we're? I go in, and people would I didn't even percent how without work so so a running to some day went to great school with running, say why dont go by that many more, but it shows its. Resolve. I really think that easier way out would have been to attempt that. Can I think I, the story was so big and it was such a huge change of my life and my new normal was there with there is such a massive chasm between what old normal in my new normal word that I think that they're there just wasn't room for that. I just had to kind of keep trying to move forward and keep trying to get back onto a developmental path that I might therapist at the time. That was always her goal was sort of. How do we get act under developmental path of a twenty five year old right in our. So what is that look like, and you know how I can support myself and you know and find purpose than me.
in the world and try to find a relationship which I think was you know. something that I tried at the time, and I now look back on that period. Him like, of course, I couldn't have been it as the areas. Relations in later life is involved. A volume of I cared about people bait an egg, and I actually think it was hard for some people who got to know me and cared about meets a sort of reconcile EL the person they got to know with how the rest of the world saw me. No, no. That was also hard and my net younger ages. That may be careers not fully developed to step into all. That is just the art I wouldn't have state. armchair expert, if you dare, we are supported by door if you had a long day at work or a tough day at school. You stuck in the office treat yourself to a me you deserve. Have your favorite restaurant come to you with door dash Monica
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this Europe see all the way square can take your business from square one. no one ever next at square dot com slash, goes lashed, acts on, subject, credit, brutal and issued by kilted bank member of the icy It's not as if you were being shame for in public was having had an extra marital affair? You were being call the swat what you were not we are combining wait. What is right and evidence shoreline rebates find have tons of sex with people known should become a slut cracked, but you were being called a slut because no one should be called will because
it. I mean it was procured, so what's it would every? I know sliding tired and bimbo amiable stupid your beheld stupid gap in your being body shamed YAP. They deployed all of the the weapon read that is against women. It's really just an horrendous Saudi unleashing, a nice yeah! No one is talking about a man. the way in general that do not doing now? They're, not Oh, I know manage. While you know, I think the correct all of the women in the story experience that indifferent ways. They think that we as a society
We look at women in the public eye in a very different way than we do yes, and now we, when you go through all of that, I think the odds of you coming through on the other side's in being someone who could be an interview or some that has continued to be pursued, business get a graduate the almost impossible. To really imagine. I can't I'm at like that. The fact that you have survived all this is just incredibly admirably thing. It's so rare. I doubt many of us have the strength to go through what you do. I know it sounds, can have crocheted bet. A really do you think. None of us knows how strongly I do think that I meant I'm grateful. I've been able to survive. There been many many moments where I didn't think I could make it through and it could be the strangest you know I think of it is that it's a small moment of grace that you know makes right. Instead of left, the phone rings, somebody who doesn't even know you're in pain- and you don't not even went even necessarily say, but that connection
Were you doing at that time to comfort yourself, oh during the investigation eating for, should then all the other like press that followed because it was it didn't, go I am two seconds: Iver, no right, think Algiers righted enable years of work. If the you know it wasn't officially over said started January of ninety eight, it was a kind of quote unquote, officially over until he was acquitted, he was impeach by the house, but then acquitted by the Senate, and that was, I think, February of ninety ninety nine says little over a year there, but with something that stayed in.
Part of the would you say, political psych item of the Vulcan of designation, Janni, cultural, yes, and so you know it, and when I went to graduate school, I had really mistakenly naively thought. Oh, I'm I'm in a move to England and I'm going to Eliza, and I am now going to be a graduate student and I'm leaving you know political Monica Lewinsky back in the states and- and I actually was having to take on another identity. I wasn't getting rid of an identity and an ultimately, I think for me in a second came at a graduate school and then and then was actually almost the darkest. Create? Even darker, there was an adrenaline that coursed through the entire year of ninety eight, but it was when I came out of graduate school and I can't get a job and I and I couldn't end purpose and support myself. That's really when it was a darker time for me, but you're going to have no future.
I can't that was when I came in to my anger, but at the same time you know I see now and not sure I would choose it again, but I see now what that did benefit me was. I ended up having the time to do. the deep Self Healing Kenai involution right, and you know that was the latest spiritual were you could have he just kept on running if it had. Unemployment immediately. Ultimately, another really big lesson for me many lessons, but one of them was around You know not running away from my past that it was about integrating my past. Like I'm very fond of saying I don't believe inserted. Moving on, I believe in moving forward to me, there's a real distinction between those two that there's like an element of moving on feels like oh you're, supposed to and put whatever happened to you in the past and and almost with a layer of shame cut off from whatever that behavior was
it's one of the things they really admire about you and how you ve talked about your life experiences Dax is like, is they you? You are so comfortable or seemingly so comfortable with all of the decisions made based on the pain you were in and your ability to transcend that shame I think, has helped a lot of people will. Thank you so much, and I only got up from the toaster grand my work I, without that I don't know what I would do, because, yes, sir living with shame- and this is ultimately when I would- I want to talk to you about this when I want to finish with you- ve worked a bunch of cyberbullying, there couldn't be someone who I don't know how you quantify it, but if you're not number one you're tied for number one for the mid, the biggest public shaming of all time,
really, I think, on the internet to like an Nathan days that the internet, just that experiences in a lot of people, have experienced that now. I think there's in the statistics are like one in ten or something I think as a cultural society. A country we ve gotta valve pass the way voraciously devour other people that we get so much pleasure out of exposing people's quote unacceptable, behavior, of course, by their own definition. What's acceptable, not acceptable put this feeding frenzy that we all enjoy the pretending as if and you have a masters in psychology. Maybe you could help me. I assume there's some kind of catharsis in watching someone else go up in flames for something that you you know you yourself have done. I think you know they're so many different things that are apt in our online world. You know, there's the online disinhibition effect so where people, because they're high,
behind a screen or behind, and iniquity find it easier to take on different persona, as we saw that the beginning of that with remember second life, you know yeah, you know so I mean that was really that was kind of the beginning. I think of this idea of Ino and avatars of sort of okay. Let me both be this person, but also be someone else, be some different curated version of who I want to be right. Some projected free advertisement for me exactly and which in and of itself, has a layer of shame connected to it right, cuz, there's a De of whoever I am really am, is not good enough, verdure yeah, so I think that you know that's it play. I think we have people constantly. I mean just the chasm between our real lives and curated selves online is very challenging anything. That's where there's so much the mental health issues coming in. I had this young boy say to me last week, which was he had written in an essay.
Just been turning it over in my mind, ever since I read it when he was talking about actually with physical violence that when you don't have an adult to say to you everything's gonna, be ok, you're alone in your pain and your experience, and you lash out at someone else doing the exact same thing for the very reason so that you're not alone, I'm sure she never really thought about it. From that way I mean, I believe, okay, hurt people hurt people all those things and misery loves company. It really does. I certainly dont want excuse any kind of online harassment or billing behavior, but that in some ways it's a coping mechanism for some people. You know and that's where we kind of have to step back. There is no three pronged easy solution. This is like the human condition. what is really happened in urine? If time is that what happened to you there were only for news outlets and people watch. There was newspapers in the country, so you took up so much space
that the person who made a weird common on their trip to Africa, they would have never been put in the paper to get shame. So, for a long period, most people weren't getting the kind of first hand public, shaming right that you there wasn't really an outlet for it wrecked. But now there is an outlet for almost any one to get publicly shamed others infinite number of web address is basically and there's social media. In there's a trillion news networks and out many many people can be replicated in any event, the business model is different with so many more. Outlets. There are more people in this industry who are looking to, he can income sure your money Emily coming nor good right, since though I mean that's, the whole thing is, is you know, is a round the idea that the model of money that gets made from these things and that shaman public humiliation or these currencies and our society has raised a four year and its, and I do think, there's I have a friend who has a really interesting.
Theory around, because we now don't stay in the same village. You know from where we were born and know this. People for entire lives, but well known people have kind have become the local that was sort of the local gossip that we may yet, as these are the familiar people that we now instead of staying in our village, think we take them with us wherever we go. Yes, the purpose gossip provided was when we lived in hundred member groups. They were very a deleterious become as one man getting power if he started abusing that power. Is the chief three other men could overthrow him at any time? I'm been in our early days that chief didn't have a police force, it didn't eat military timing, to be overthrown pretty easily in the mechanism by which, evaluate whether that person should be overthrown was gossip. That's exactly
build an alliance to make sure someone's not being tyrannical apparatuses like military state police. In now we're not going to so far away into a new president doesn't really work. That way, any more you know, but but but it is hard wired into us, no one should feel guilty that they enjoy guy. weird design to gossip, so we can regulate these little groups. I think it's helpful to first recognize, like oh yeah, I'm inclined to gossip the same way, I'm inclined Four snickers bars I'm hard wired to load up on sugar. One fruits and season in the address of the no, that about my body so that I can take some some actions have again or sand what you're saying I'm just it do think that we can evolve away ass army to link the goal should be a hundred percent, yet to evolve away from it radically. I think we can see
many. Many ways that its ultimately destructive in its no longer servicing the person was any view if you stepped back and you like, take a completely different view and think about it and are generally its words have a consequence. You know they have a consequence whether you are hearing them are not that sense of that mean we have energy fields where were affected by what people think about us what they say about us. I mean that for me, I think a big part of my feeling was, I spent many years having to heal my field. You know so destructive to be having gone overnight from being known by a very small group of people relative to the rest of the world.
And all of a sudden have office negative intention in energy coming at me like that, in effect by yes, someone who has a deep desire to eat cake rate should not feel like a failure in shame themselves. They were designed to eating right. That's the point of making I'm not even judge mental of someone, the desire to gossip. I think it's ingrained in us at, but I think we should have as an objective and a gold rush ran, send that there's probably a technical term for this, which I can't remember, don't know bite. probably one of the most important ways forward is around trying to rather than trying to penalize what are the negative behavior, which I think can be helpful, is also at the same time trying to bring in more of the positive right so trying to drown that out in some ways. So educating people on how to be an upstander online like how I
that is our task about abstainers whose they visit my daughter, scorning who'll, is oh yeah. I know it's amazing to be and abstained or means to sort of intervened in situ, and and you can intervene while you're, seeing something like while you're seeing a bully situation unfold, more an online harassment unfurl, you can driving that way, but you can also intervene after the fact too. That's a really important part of being an upstanding which is just recognising reaching out to the person who has been the target of that behaviour based allowing somebody to know that someone witnessed what happened to whether that is a supportive Emoji Brits sing to someone. I saw what happened or saying. Do you want to come sit with me or want to go to the movies some way of
time. Is it somebody? You know if it's a stranger, just a positive comment. You know that they're all these ways that we can actually interrupt the cycles that are happening in the billing cycle that are important for people to remember. I also reporting her. with unlined situations, reporting any bowling or online harassment that you see is also. These are all ways of kind of being a good digital citizen, and they have a huge impact. Particularly. I think you know from the work that I do the worst kinds of things that happen or when people are suffering in silence alone, mend the faster somebody knows that they're not invisible irony of it kind of behavior, that you are a target of something, and yet you actually feel really invisible the more. I think that you can encourage people to sort of step up and engage in these sorts of behaviors were starting to shift the balance of the other kind of behaviour this happening, which which we should address in how we're dealing with these issues too.
I also wish like when I was younger. It had been explained to me that the power of this group is much much greater than the power of the boy was. When I was a kid no mind you, I have been a bully. I wouldn't I've never have thought that about south, but as I've gotten older and I playback the frequency with which I was in fights and stuff, there has to be several kids that think, I'm a bully and I'm very regretful sorry for that. Also recognized I was in household worsen was kick my mom's ass. They might There was five years old man. He was kick my ass and then I went to this playground or I could have power, and I enjoyed that Ray. I like that, and they re some who talk about people who engage especially younger people. Engaging billing behaviour. Some people look at models that are sing. It actually is their kids trying different power structures on because it lay there so many different things. I think that it is one of the things that we have trouble with the round this time
because that, like usual, we're always trying to simplify things. Yes, yes, ahead, would enable right exactly. I need people, engage ambling behaviour for four Maria reasons, and people become targets for Maria reasons and their Murray at ways to handle different situations. There's no one correct way for every single person whose either a bully or a target I have witnessed, and they have experience they enormous shifts that can happen when people step into compassion, yes and it in its most hard when its way someone whose behaviour you just personally has to begin with spent? But when I was a kid and there were certainly many times, I was bullied, and I in more than that, I observed lots of body and for us in the herd watching it. It was like if I said something I'd be the next target of that boy.
I'm assuming. I feel alone in the fact that I don't like what's happening to this kid. I'm assuming the rest of the people in this crowd are enjoying this and they liked it. So if I stand up, I'm not going to be the victim of the boy will be the next week. If I feel like I've been educated, that Nine percent of you dont want this, but you don't want a tyrannical leader on the playground and collectively the power of a group is so powerful. Yes to all of us humans. If we get excluded from our group, we change our behaviour in general. I think I agree. I think it's really important to point out that intervening directly is not always right for every person in every situation. Just like it's not always right, maybe right in some circumstances to say to somebody you have to stand up to a bully like it's just again it sort of that new once scenario. Yes, because there are people who are equipped to do that. So
Ali and emotionally and they're people who aren't and some people can be endangered by doing those sorts of things, which is why I think, with upstanding behavior, it's really important for people to recognize. You don't have to be the person who stands up to the bully. You can still be effective and that's for me for me. The my focus is, the targets France, you know how do we get that person from feeling, shame and alone and sadness to feeling more okay, lastest and that doesn't matter if you're by fifteen fifty in our social media, as its aim is really come to kind of map, are underlined cultural beliefs. You know so I mean it's a lot of people. There was like this thing I read recently sixty or seventy percent of people think the internet is an online. Harassment is kind of responsible for this corrosion of civility it's hard, because the truth is we have to look
self. I mean I look at social media lot and in a lot of behavior, just kind of like road rage, which I have no. I mean it's just sort of that I behaved. In the car in ways that I would not behave outside the car oral end, but I think that that happens online. We see that sort of not regulated behavior, you know, and so much of it is because we have lost sight of the. act. We don't have those you know, I'm sitting in a room with both of you. I can read your facial expressions. I can feel your emotions, you know in their there Always I believe there are be so many different language is going on in many We don't even know where you think you know and communicate in ways that were communicating and so it's on line. You don't have those same cues rights right. You can't see the hurt that you ve dry law, and so people tend to devolve into the worst versions of themselves,
other ways to not do that. You know I'm always most interested in tackling problems where the river starts now as a reason to those. So you know, I think there is a much bigger global question of its. Why are there so many people sitting in their rooms on a computer that have no control in their life and feel like they need to over power someone else to get a sense of control like you know what is the the societal bigger problem that were not addressing and children that they would even in a land them by right? That's a pretty hard won two tat. You may think it. I think a big threat of that is connection. There's candidates, vicious cycle. There tat end with a nine behaviour around in a restrictive. Do that thing? If we compare our insights to other people's outsides, I'm on insecure and private late,
are publicly and constantly constantly feeling like everyone else is happier than wealthier more in love, all of those things and sprite exactly instead, Graham I get that right. Like you know the mega, we also find connection their young people. I think it's over forty percent fine connection more connection from social media, but then they also feel disconnected and ways yet lonelier than right. I think what happens is its ten. If this it's weird thing where, at the same time that we're thirsty for more connection, the ways were finding connection are also trying to tell us that were less than so, because it is a very complicated back and forth struggle will- and we ve had experts on here that have explained that oxytocin is not released unless you're looking at the person's face, like all these chemical things that are associated with connection re, actually camp exist on a virtual connection or just do not have
and so the ultimate Lee feeling long way, even though their distracted enough them up, but there also getting dopamine heads when they're like brandy, command and things can likes come raised up. So is a weird balance of the island. I think it's great that were seeing some of this social media company start finally start to addressed some of these. As she asked. I have a big feared that social media is gonna end up like the cable networks bed. If we don't find a way to actually co exist in these social spaces with them in a very different pull viewpoints is we will splinter off and then we'll end up siloed in the same way of Fox NEWS and all the others so. You know, I think, we're being given an opportunity, I'm not saying it is great and I know challenging? It is for people who were targets of these things, but we are being given an opportunity on mine to try to find ways to bridge the divide of perspective
the thing I most admire about you and I'm so impressed by is that you have taken one of the and the most horrific scarlet letter rings of all time- and I have to imagine part of you- has felt very fearful of ever even talking about it in fear, breathing oxen, in into something that you just want to be over within your life, but I think your willingness to do it in your bravery is for me and it's not for any of those people that was arguing, but it's for all these people who have gone through inner seen that it didn't break somebody. I can't imagine a stronger example of someone persevering than you. It's it's incredible. The fact that you still pursued your education and that you started a business and that you started a philanthropic endeavor. I mean all these things. It's rare
to see someone not be broken by that, and I think it's align broken alleged me raggedy. I fell very Rocco guy Ethnic, well functioning labour organ, exactly young knight, shattered to peace is not shared the pieces and I just think the power of you being honest about your story is so valuable. I hope you can take on some of the credit you deserve. I hope I hope your proud of yourself. I think I feel gratitude more than pride, maybe maybe that's down the road falsehoods airs talking to my mind this morning, just about anything every once in a while. I kind of shocked into remembering what my life was like before things started to change a few years ago, and I never could have imagined giving a purpose to my past in in the way that I have or using at pain in service of hoping that other people feel less alone be ass. You know, I think, that's really what it's about. You probably know this privilege is a privilege to have a life
you're, evil to help other people feel less alone. Because of the experiences your sharing yeah, you must have people reach out to all the time. I hear with you: how are you how I hope I mean that's, that's kind of you know. That's look we'd like to shed Oliver social media, but that's also kind of one of the beauties of social media. To is that we do get to hear from people we do get to connect in ways that when otherwise you can find your tribe and away. You can have the leisure I mean they're, so I mean and think about their lot of political movements, the women's March, when we have been able to happen that fact, yeah. You know has take me to two point. Oh no, I mean Toronto Burke started it ten years ago, but it you know social media and changed that into something different. It became something became a louder voice, an coalesced faster because of it. So
but, like all things, it's not binary. It's not good or bad everything right. But, of course that's the MAX nuance and contacts. in the inclination is alike, get rid of somebody in or embracing showing up about it. But I really now there's like a whole process where we can refine things, and I also think that their you know of fully the platforms will come to places where they'll be instituting mechanisms to help certain alleviate those kinds of scenarios to yeah. It's really hard route to a man, virgin, but all of this, as you pointed out earlier, is driven by economic MA so everyone feels insignificant. We live in a country of three million people. You feel, like you're, insignificant, buddy
you click on the shitty article and if you agree the visually allow governor them you march of that algorithm, it's hard to imagine here. We will steer the ship guy. Did you see em geryon? I always get his last name on Jerry Land, lanyard, lanyard manner. He gave a really interesting TED talk last year, and he's been involved in the internet, and he he made this argument. We sort of went right when we should have done left at the point of should the internet have been so Sean based or add. Based though you know, I mean I, you can also see that there are, of course in there that financial hierarchy issues were to have been subscription based by, I think, you know a lot of where we are is because we we have without realizing it made these agreements of
clicking our data that that these are the new commodities? He argues that then it's not too late to turn back, and I think we should really be looking in exercising Allah yeah there's a lot of different people right now in different political races that are suggesting are pointing out that none of this is kind of a black utility- and we probably should be treating it as such, and it should be Albert everyone should be democratized in we Relion Nabisco, to bring it to us. We should just pony up as a society probably and have the version. We want the validity of that argument. So what what's next for you we will be doing this year, a video New York and I have done a campaign for bullying prevention month, which we launched, usually in the first few days of October,
now what I'm really delighted that we became twitter friends, I think lover how it started again and again: I've been a long time it my review. I am happy to see you still thriving in the way you are and think it is incredibly impressive and I'm in all of it so and I'm glad I had to talk to you. and now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate and Monica Padman Monica Monica Monica. Oh, my god, energy by that one exploded, because we're common hot off about some of you know what I'm realising. What that's, how I was not about me, was it now who's about you, guys, yak, as is, Monica's episode yeah it is. This was a great episode.
yeah. I feel very grateful that she trusted us to share her story me to me to us all. he's always liked her yeah, and I know her through this process and she's. So lovely really is a sweet, sweet human beings, yeah yeah, I like her. Allow me to meet her and strong the up yeah fuck. It resilient, never in my wildest dreams as a child, watching that whole thing unfold that I think I'll, maybe one day she'll sit on the couch across from me, and we can really talk about it. I know It's a wild wild world. Wonder what the percentages of people who then felt a lot of judgment if they still yeah Shane Simpson. Well, I think so much of the reaction was embroiled in whatever people's fear,
Of course he'll like if you were a partner and do you had a big fear that your? been, would turn round on. You am I so interesting to about cheating right people get mad at the other person. I mean they programmatic. Both people knew, but it's interesting, like I've. Never understood get. You well know I do understand in high school girlfriend cheated on me and I went to the guy's house and tried to fight him, and I lost my vision as I was trying to punch him through the car window and I completely understand intervened. It was a whole circus. Do, I do remember blaming the person, but it is ironic, as you know, you're, not in a relationship with the other person now so complicated but anyways. I do think that she may have for some percentage of the population represented their biggest fear attractive. Woman would bleed,
fenestrae. It's often not always, of course, but it's often the man who cheats on his and yet the woman, the woman who had an affair with them, is the one that generally gets the blame on older women. The other one I tried not to say that exactly and like that person, ostracized and that person in often husband and wife end up reconciling so the husband ends up really not feeling the weight of anything and that other person ends up feeling every. to me as extremely well you're, the husband or or the wife when, whenever case it is all that's for everything is pretty young, the oven the numbers are even saying. Esther parallel suggest that you are even yet because who the fuck, who are they fucking single paper?
you got a stagnant popular same percentage of women are married. Is man cuz they're marrying each other that the statistics are the same, what better way there aren't sheeting more than women. I would say- probably I don't think so, really Now I think, just as many married women are having affairs is married. Men brought her to less tat list. I think that's true You know, I says, is something: that's been universally reviled and universally practice totally. I think I don't think it's a male female thing. I think. Historically, there's men were the vast MC joint majority of since a power were men, so you're aware of all of the men's famous indiscretions, but maybe if There are way more famous, powerful women. You be aware of those indiscretions. Maybe I I'm sure there are like what is cheating so sure I bet men are going to massage parlors a lot more food with
to get relieved. I don't think women, maybe our shopping for orgasms as readily as I mean I'm just look at stereotypical married couples I would say: stereotypically don't get mad. Me everyone. The man wants more sex in the woman, often not always, but often both people. Well, I think the woman wants the same amount of sex, but with a different person I want novelty, that's what it is everyone's desiring novelty and everything is male or female. We want novelty are men acting on it more conventionally. Traditionally were they out in the world where they could they had on observe time that they could probably cheat like this was the system. Did it cater more to that? Probably
at home. Raising chaos, yes Senator who your meeting body, but I do think I just think think people have affair here. There are men and women both have a fairly. I didn't very right, you're right under the whoever cheated can be forgiven. Reincorporate it in their life in the other person, the other woman, the other Man's always occupies that there's no redemption for equal doesn't feel fair enough, yeah it was it was, it was enormous Leon. Fair, that's obvious, like he was, you know, kept his job exact in his position in the world, but by the way I want to be clear, I dont think that he should have no he's done he's a lead. You have done other things that I have no defense of, but let's just say this was an extramarital affair. I don't think the solution would be
he should have been shame the way she was now. I think I don't I then she should have gotten the treatment he did. I don't either party needs to be sent to Siberia, I agree and but when I think, the part of this conversation that doesn't get tough very much which she test on a little bit, which is you know she was like part of what was so awful. Is this public presentation that it was a servicing relationship and she was like it was a mutual relationship, and I don't think that part is talked about where it's like she's in a relation but the person she's? On top of this, then there's I'm sure, a private heartbreak, of course not allowed to feel that is not fair right. Hungary, runaway folding, his mama yeah
in a lot of people go like. Oh, you guys feel so bad for two people who cheated, but I do feel bad when people make mistakes and I've made a ton of mistakes, I continue to make mistakes so make yeah. I don't think I'm anyone, that's not making mistakes. I've just met people who are better at hiding their mistakes. Ok yeah, so she was trying to find, though verbiage fur disk woe. She said the tallest poppy gets cut off first, but it's called tall Poppy syndrome old tall poppy syndrome. Bs does all poppy, you aren't hopping. It describes aspects of a culture of people of high status, are resented, attacked, cut down, strung up or criticise, because I ve been classified as carrier to their peers. The weirdest real, I think about it. All the time you know so someone's twitter handle was like about
billionaires or something- and I was like it is the weirdest thing that we all want this thing we want in this country. We want to become well and successful, and yet we and I did resent people who have done that and for many five reasons in many unjustified reasons. It just is very weird things like we defend this system, so you know passionately in yet were resentful of the people that have done that, it's all complicated Yes, I think we love, I mean a lot of people say this, but yeah love to see people rising. We love allows law to you. I think, because again I, like you just said, everyone makes mistakes and feels relatable, but also, I think,
you're. Not at that level, you feel like. Oh, it's actually not that good up there like there's something about that feels comforting to you that you are not there Maybe when you get to that level like all shady rebellion, moralists yeah. I think it's more, why is that person there not me? I deserve that they don't so They are found guilty of some indiscretion. It confirms that they didn't deserve it negative. change outlook. I would take her very well be true, but I think it's a deeper psychological thing happening We have an entire system and then no one really likes the outcome of the system. horses now, I'm on the other side of it, and I got really defensive when I saw this person, I'm not a billionaire on twitter, attacking that here. I'm someone who has given me
in the dollar, to the government, millions of dollars to education, to all these services, to building bridges. So my contribution, to the whole system, the that were fighting for be at Medicare. Any other thing requires people to generate a bunch of money so that they can give a bunch of it to the government. So it's a weird proposition to be resentful at the people who are giving a tremendous amount of money to this system that you want to see more services? So when I see like abolish billion years, is like war about abolish the some things you dont like about billions? But if someone is, is some human being figures out an outer make mousetrap apple in it generates a trillion dollars and half of that goes to this system. That's why? Why is that? Anesthetics to what you want currently are sick? Stan some of the richest people paid. No taxes will that's a big issue right that allowed access analyse, be specific about it. But I'm saying when someone creates the Iphone in its cells
four hundred million in men. That puts one slash two. No trillion dollars into the fun that builds roads and educates. Kids. You know be careful that that's what you want to get rid of is some source of profound wealth that does get redistributed. Now you could say I want to see the distribution of billing be at seventy percent. That's fine, which is the very notion of abolish billionaires, is just a weird, when what we need is moneyed Ferralti service right. But I wonder if this is like. Is this like lunch four times a week with your boss, like? Have you seen just abolish billion and then nothing more mad at me that I said Upreach Talon for saying be kind. Everyone
am I talking about personnel, but I think there's a good amount of people Emmi in the argument cited argument. I've heard has not been abolish, billion airs it span, they need to pay for We need a high percentage gathering. Only that much more near or will you said you don't know? The number is, but probably fifty percent of people were getting cheated on that year. They your big night, ninety eight, but there's no, For that there's? No, no! I mean their capital beguiled gas. Exactly there can't be you're gonna be mouth cyber bullying. She said one in ten. According to cyber bulling statistics from the icy foundation, over half of adolescents and teens had been blade online and about the same number have engaged in Cyprus more than one and three young people have experienced cyber threats online over twenty five percent of adolescents and teens have been bullied repeatedly through cell phones or the internet. Well, over half of young people do not tell their parents when cyber bullying occurs.
glad a weird feeling watching Joker. I really want you to watch it. We can really on attack at all, but one we're too. I was of these weird thoughts are like super. Contrary to what I traditionally thank the. How and one of almost four this is set in the seventies in New York. and he is you know, he's like any one of these shooters or any number of people. Now know we have a ton of in this society. And I was looking at life in the 70s on that, but you know he's riding a bus around and Stephanie just there's nothing to distract him from his kind of mania, and I was thinking like a conventional I hate video games. What a waste of time you were roses, get rid of a union direct, but I was like. Oh, there are a bunch of people who are angstrom written about this system that excludes them, and I was like: are these
Things maybe make our world safer like if you can give some eggs written somebody, a joystick, meaning blow people away for four hours on a video game. Does that keep them from acting? in order that satiate or that are out. Let for their frustration is this device that constantly keeps you engage, which I think is negative. Sometimes is this positive is the most terrible things stem from boredom, Maybe now I know I totally don't fix her. Ok, we'll wine, because there has been only arise in these types of behaviors and especially these mash hootings and staff from thence Will Devlin Ashton's yet, but the murderers precipitously down when Spain, following some yet of India's me about him like gang Burly, that that's what that stuff is, in its guy finds out his girlfriend fucked. Another dude need good drives over and shoots him, and-
I mean just murder. Overall is down all these types of unconventional shootings and depression. It's our I mean all these things are everything's on worse, since the invention of the phones and video games and all those things so No, I don't think it describes an outlet for people pension argument against pornography that it would lead to more rape and stuff, and then there were many people who had studies. That said no porn is in outlet and actually will jerk off watching the porn and then it kind of, is there likelihood of going out being a predator and goes down cuz? I have an outlet for it, so I'm not. I'm not planting of wagon either side. I bade, but I guess what occurred to me as you. You could make an argument. The stuff say she, its peoples, ANG sped on thing. You can either because all the stuff has gotten worse anger wise if you're talking about people who feel
entitled and act out because of it all the way. Worse and depression. Just has gotten way worse and
a solution. Yeah. Oh ok, we talk about gossip. A little bits. Does an interesting emperor article about gossip, so gossip can help solidify personal relationships and encourage cooperation. Children engage in this form of gossip by age. Five. One provocative view comes from anthropologist, Robin Dunbar, who argues that gossip is the human analogue of social grooming, which is widely practised by our primate cousins through gossip, begin, create and maintain social bonds more efficiently, allowing us to form groups of larger sizes. These suggestions about the benefits of gossip for cooperation correspond to a special subset of gossip, which recently been called pro social gossip pro social gossip involve sharing negative judgments about a third party, but where the shared information could protect the
the Cypriot from anti social behaviour or exploitation, thus gossiping about who cheats at cards or whose likely to shirk responsibility, would qualify as pro social, gossip researchers, Jan Ingle men ass, their Herman and Michael Thomas Selo of the MAX plan, plan. Acts there were requires a different voice. Plank I kiss is playing it wouldn't be playing p l, a and c k plaque plant, no there's no longer, but here s a plaque, blasted sapphires forever,
illusionary. Anthropology study, prosocial gossip and both three and five year old to create an opportunity for such gossip. They had the children play a game of children who participate in the study first played with two puppet, one of which was more generous than the other. A second child then came in to play the game with just one of the two puppets and the researchers tarblooder the first child gossiped about the puppet, offering a social evaluation that could help the second child decide which puppet to choose. For example, if a child said you should play with the green puppet, because the yellow puppet is stingy and doesn't share enough tokens that would be classified as prosocial gossip. The research has found that most children and both age groups offered some
guidance Mount which puppet to choose for the three year olds very rarely offered an evaluation to go along with it. For instance, they might recommend one puppet over the other, but they wouldn't go on to explain that it was because that puppet was generous or because the other puppet cheated the five year old. By contrast offered such a valuations about half the time, they went beyond a mere recommendation to a social judgment, the kind of claim that might breakin individuals, reputation. So that's why they got the three to five number: nine, the am, and no one I think I brought up right was the declaration I heard was like to keep it a meritocracy. Yes, sir, she said to the others, some positives, I think for me it's very easy to answer. There's some gossip I feel on over from in there's some Dounia exactly in Israeli that I guess I'm warning somebody like don't tell so, and so a secret they're, not gonna keeping secrets. I feel totally in about that saying something negative about the person but whatever. But if I'm just like
someone's shirt was stupid. Near I feel shity. For me, it's about purpose like what is the purpose of talking about. This is the purpose of talking about to dissect to understand more to connect a lot to right cuz. If you wanted me to whatever some stranger wearing wrangling, and then afterwards I go. Did you realize that guy said Herpes a lot then you go yes there's like some bonding between us that we both observe this thing or we're not crazy in our thoughts or ice. Play dinner. Thoughts were like confirm that we're on the right path. I think that's what a lot of gossip is, but
generally, that kind of gossip is the kind I don't love. I mean that that examples so benign but like the shirt is bad, is that yes, it is the same orally to maximum lower. It is order. The connection thing, like all, did you notice, like his shirt, was all wrangled. Ah plain rises, shirts or Rankly God it didn't get any money. They are seeking connection, but I'd a lot of times when people initiate some gossip with me about one of those things the most, but I generally don't think about those things. I don't care about those right. So when they try to connect with me, they don't get a connection out of it. I agree with that now in my adult life, but I think I probably spent many many many conversations just pretending like I noticed that, so I could feel
inside and right yeah they. So why do you also need your watching tv? Oh, my God knows how big discuss tongue is another. I think you do that I mean you do do that about TAT. I dont think you talk poorly about people from like no reason for sport. Yeah foreign attainment now know. Well, I love you. That's all! I love all gossip with you about things that could a view. Ok and if we noticed summonses Herpes indiscriminately, I can talk about a year so many times he said Herpes but then we'd be like sure he said her business. And then there should we offer him a scream of covers asian of like I always so cod, did the viewing man and wisely so caught like one Why is that to me? Is fine? That's just exploring, but like just being like you
as a view about, nor is now on the says, all right. I love you and I love to Monica Lewinsky me too, even though we found out you hate this, but the name mean what the name means alone and also advice. Giver. Both of those things I think apply to myself. You do green love. You