In Part 7: Monica & Jess Love Goblins with Esther Perel, M and J are thrilled to welcome psychotherapist, Esther Perel to the attic. Esther makes the distinction between love and desire and she reminds them that having a lot of sex with many partners is equivalent to avoiding sex- both are methods to avoid rejection. Esther encourages Monica to let go of the goblin on her shoulder and she removes the phrase "losing feelings for" from the relationship vocabulary. The three talk about "want" vs. "should" and Esther is intrigued by Jess's interactions with "out of my league guy". Esther does exercises with M and J on how to spark desire and she gently tells them if they don't let go of their narratives, regardless of who they date, they will always be dating their narrative.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
I Monica a k, a miniature mouse. I love boys, but I don't have one and in fact I've never had one. I could probably count on two hands how many days I've been on in my entire life- and I decided it's time to change that hard armed groups in our move was true and then the opposite way of Monica our current comin over hands in Amerika hungry people. Had sex with, and yet I still don't have a boyfriend, and I want one an armed acts and I love Monica and just so many ways they have partners, and that is a huge mystery to me, because they're both incredibly attractive so fond so smart and have so much to offer so we decided to do, was examined these unhealthy patterns and bring an experts and outsiders to help critique us. Advise us guide us
much called bull shit on us so that we can find the romantic complaining that we're looking for. We started this thinking. It was gonna, be just cute little dating challenges that we would go on and talk about and laugh about turns out. It is very hard to be vulnerable in real time in public. So. It's a big sire so alone we romanticize pathological. wondered how much you want love God, you can't even get the sentence out, it would just eat around it's a little self employed. Work wants something, and then why have I decided to. We must put the chairman, the water, for the sharks to come by Veronica Lake. So apparently I have to join Riah sweetly legs. You don't even have a kiss. I hear anything frontal lobe issues in the warehouse.
Bravo: okay, tat what you should be doing serene every night bribes to uncomfortable. For this, please enjoy part, seven Monica just love goblins with Esther Corral. We are supported by policy genius. If there's one thing you humans aren't great at its predicting the future. Just take a look around no amount of crystal balls fortune cookies or tea leaves, could predict what the world were living in right now. But unpredictability is
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four and get home insurance with policy genius in just a few minutes. You can find your best price and apply it palsy genius. Dotcom policy genius will always get the future on better get home insurance write stuff. They don't like a warm welcome to parts said then move a mannequin, just love boys were were nearing the ends Sab a little well or nearing the end of this. That doesn't mean were near the end of our growth. That's true! Ok, just so your challenge,
Last week, SAM works out of my german of known for five years and pay the millionaire matchmaker. We challenge the idea of out of your league and what that meant, and I thought that this Person was out of my league through discussion, she told me to ask him out, and I said, there's no way and I asked him to dinner. said. Yes, and He had an amazing time. It was very, very fun and my insecurity thinks that he didn't think it was a date because I've known for five years and I didn't think it was not a deep but conversation went for fun a serious to fund. There was no lapses. He's on a very big died halfway through, he goes so much fun, I'm a drink, and I go awesome. Let's have a drink and the date lasted two hours quorum quote date and we left and we hugged an idle.
And I thought I dont think anyone really is out of my leg- is what I took out of it and I don't think he thought it was a date yeah. You called me after and these are the words you used friends sound. He didn't think the day. I've known him for five years and since and we ve gone to breakfast and played settled a tan with other friends, he loves this podcast. we talk about it a lot now that this is a lifetime and think he admires mean. I think he thinks I'm funny in a great communicator and he loves so open. I am and how vulnerable it- and I don't think he's practice me Rand eight enough guys and have enough sex to think that I think I have a good rate on that. this is where me and Monica have alluded, Agree and I get a little defensive unwise. You said There is no the one it's the one. You pick, I love that you said that and I think straight relationship inherited
normative things when it's time for kids, it's time for marriage. I think that I'm not seeing all three people. They make choices that are less to do with the physical attraction, and I don't have that is, I not see that as much in the gay community and I think would know if SAM was attracted to me. I think you would flirt with me. I think I would know without feels like, unless he actually is more taken with you and he's feels more vulnerable and therefore- attraction to. You is a little bit more fraught and therefore he's holding back. I think It is much easier for many gay men to be out there with their restrictions and their excitement when the emotional investment is very low and when it gets higher. It becomes even more scary, you, Eurostat of expands, the fear of rejection, etc, etc. And then you wait.
So I don't know that I would say he's not attracted. I have no clue, but I mean said that if he likes you being attracted to you may be slightly more scary and would say vice versa from you, but because you have repeated three times how hits very clear to him that this was another date like? Why do you need to emphasise so much to frame because it shapes the expectations that we know exactly what this is supposed to be, and we don't have to mix the metaphors, and you know it was worded as you had an enjoyable time, you spend time together, you ve seen each other again and who now I don't know anything about this man, but certainly for you. That in itself is already. Special unusual for where you ve been lately. It did feel special and it fell fund even last night four of us playing games, There is a way I act around him. That makes him laugh that
I enjoy. I feel like I am myself run him when and other dates or other experiences. I have put on an act or I've changed too. I am yeah, it felt good being myself, regardless of the end result, I guess I would say, especially because of the end result, not regardless of especial because the end result is not end its. It actually is evolving you, ve seen him again you play with him you meeting for breakfast is slowly weaving something, however thin a threat, it is so it wasn't just a hook up or whatever you call em, we still corner, I never know university vocabulary just so fast war. Artlessness can now here you're wonderful voice. We have our doubts asked Esther parallel on today, working just We don't know under the media, were over the moon or cited yes. Thank you so much for being here. three to be back somewhat
Challenge was given by Paddy the milliner matchmaker was to dress provocatively on a date on a second date, and she wanted it to be with the trainer. Who was the date that just set me up our arranged marriage dates and we have been texting and it seemed like ok, this makes sense for me to go on a second day with him. So great, and what was interesting is this person is the only person of the guys I've gone out with through this experience. That knows about this experience, and I have to say I felt so relieved by that by the fact that new- and I told him- I said his my challenge this week- is to dress provocatively suggests. prepare to have your mind blown and he laughed needs. ok great, and so we were gonna go out, and then I rescheduled, because that's what I do and there
and then I went out of town for eight days or something and ask you some vs, you reschedule in order to what it is, what you do for what it's just because I hold to read over all of these things, I mean really. I think issues like I had this food. A rejection. Ultimately, so it's this draft, That and rescheduling is just the delays as like Gimme another day, where I don't have to experience that. So I I do a lot. We joke that my fake, but you know the interesting thing. Is I'm not sure that testing is any different from yours? He does it his own way. You can avoid big meet people. in order not to be rejected, or you can have a certain way of being with people. consume them in full amount. Once and you, swallow and then you spit, and
actually are also dealing with the fear of rejection, but I just know that it may look different, but that doesn't mean that you are dealing with a different one hundred fear. I think you're right and I think that's a lot of people's fear right, like just fear of rejection, is really common. Think that's what's happening when I'm like I'll. Do that morrow instead or I'll. Do slick push it to its limit, but the rescheduling in this case was a little be that as it always is, but also there was a real reason. We were launching this pot cast the next morning and I felt that I needed to be like present that night in case things come. What do you know about this fear for you, the fear of rejection, so I grew up indian girl in Georgia, and I felt that no one was attracted to me. Then I wanted russification.
I mean that was confirmed a few times early on in my life, and then I just let every other experience like fallen to that narrative. And I know that's where a lot of that comes from MS just this I felt like there was nothing I could do about that. You know is mice the color of my skin, it's my external, and so There was rejection early on and I felt like. I don't want to experience that ever again, and so I kind of turned some switches off because of that- and this is meant to turn- those back on again, and it was the same if it was men from any type of backgrounds, or was it actually was it, from the men or was it also from the girlfriends and the women and girls at you,
used to hang out of that experience that people from other backgrounds at minority members have about attraction and how it measures up with the standard of beauty in a dominant society, and how, when internalize, is the rejection or the look as now being desirable not being attractive. It's it's a firm. In your story and its sometimes is the men of the boy that. You wanted them to look at you, but sometimes it's also the girls that you were hanging with I'm being completed, just curious, yeah. Well, probably both it was the wanting to be so american I was really american. My mom grew up in Georgia to she's indian, but they moved when she was six reveals a group in Georgia. It wasn't like my house, was very cold. For all at all. It was very americanized, but I still felt so oh. I just found like about different. I felt like my skin was good
bring me away and it was betraying me it was like saying I was different when I didn't want to be, or I feel like, I'm not I'm just like all these people but a gap. and have you learned to accept it to even we should have you learned to nuts feel any more than the moment you walk in. You have no choice over who you are except the projection and negative yeah prejudice that people have about you because of it Yeah, I've Lincoln the I'm, I'm I'm It pains me just listening. You know, I know it's if someone else was telling this story to me, I would feel the same way I yeah I mean it was It was all a lot of then. As you said, I hung out and I I was very well liked. I had a lot of friends.
It has nothing to do with the iron. Clearly has nothing to do. That's the sad, but and for all did people even know you felt, as we now see. That's the thing it's over. It's it's a secret pain that you carry and if you told them they would know what you're talking about and if I was able to articulate at it, I wouldn't have, because that would be even more proof to the fact that there was some separation. I know I think about that all the time now that we're doing this pine chasm we're talking so openly about all this stuff. I am, of course, all my best friends who are still my best for and from that time I always think like they must be listening to this and think like what we have the best time and we did the best time, but I was always sort of holding this. My question to both of you would be just as a star's what have you learned in those six episode about yourself? Jenny, less interested in what you tried per se as to what you learned about
You said through the trying where, Are you at now I've slow down? You know we went out to dinner last night and she goes you think that waiters hot and I go. I didn't even look at him, which never I mean just catch phrases. I love him He says it about anyone, that's walking by and the waiter came up and I notice does like he's attractive when I was waiting for dress to say- and he didn't any didn't any didn't, and so I ask MRS do: do you love him and he was like Oh I didn't. Even I don't even notice him and instead, what was I doing instead, I was watch in her eyes and listening to Monaco Better story, and I was in the moment, I've. down a lot through this experience and I think it's this podcast, plus my dad dying has made me feel a bit more appreciative, and I mean might be tried, but that I'm enough, you know that
like whatever is going on. Oh, how I feel is gonna be enough. I think my energy and my thirty's, even maybe given year ago, was this it was just like I need I want. I want someone have sex when it they didn't. Like me, desperation over taxiing getting a perfect body. You know It's been a wild ride. Did you father recognize you? Yes, he's always recognize me I get my open rudeness from him he's just a very transparent, gray communicator and was in love with me from the moment. I was born in never tell me and didn't baron I when I was gay and he was so k- he's weed
you and you with him at this moment. I had a table two days ago and she came in I'm a waiter and she had been in Vienna on and it's as it's my last year gmo- and I just ride with her at the table and just like your light is so huge and which has had a moment the man went to the bathroom. I haven't, when a while over this, it's interesting, how it, how it comes first voted eleven his to become into Don T know if you were telling a story right now. Are you were laughing? You wouldn't be explaining why you're laughing It's an amazing thing: how, when we grief
and we remember and we said and weaken the tears accompanies the sadness which is completely normal. We suddenly feel that we need to explain, give nothing to explain you know and at the same time I was thinking where did this hunger of yours come from this sense that every person, everything that moves should be recognised? You said that you know you matter. You exist your important, your desirable, if you know growing up different feeling that there is- underlining thing that I was different, that I had to make everything else great. I had to prove myself that I was funny and smart and a good Baskerville player in ST days, and my parents got divorced
force. I want to make my mom happy and then I would live with my dad and then I'm live with her mom and then I was DIS, and then I lost my virginity of thirty, so I had I had so much to make up for all these things in these feelings that people had when they were sixteen and seventeen eighteen, I had to make up for all of it and I was having sex constantly and I needed approval, and I wanted people to like me for my looks and not my personality. so because they had done the opposite for so long erect. Don't you find it interesting that you mention? I lost my virginity as a way to highlight the most important or a very important developmental stage in years. Sexual story, and we named it by what you lost find it. A very interesting statement. do you see other developmental stages by what I lost or do we do?
you see what I want. I gained what I discovered what I acquired. I acquired some Venuses God. What made you wait too long fear. I didn't feel ready. As you know, a gay sex wasn't it. Nor do she was. I didn't know any of these things that the gay community did. I was terrified, have you loved? Yes, I have had three boyfriends, I feel like I loved two of them and we talk about the last one Gregg a lot because we lived
Rather we shared a dog and I felt so normal and it with that break up. I talk about this. A lot too, as I cried for over a year inputs, fetid, loved and lovable, that you both struggled to feel desirable and struggled with your desires chestnut the same yeah. Exactly that's actually really interesting distinction cut out is exactly true. I would have said that I didn't feel lovable, but I think you're and I did feel lovable because I had many friends good relationship with my parents and, yes, I think you're right Monica unjustly boys is supported by data. Jes is elbow right now. So I have another friend stepping in tonight and I love they act. Shepard, who loves data dealing, surprises job.
presence, yeah love, em, you ve got me a lot, a great surprise and it's the other. The best. The experience you had when I gave you a gift is just like the one I had when the people at data sent me their new and improved plant based frozen pizza, I was not prepared. Earl, I was with you and I wasn't prepared either very so good and ate the hell out of those data pizzas I I must have had one and a half Peters and once it and they sent me, the meat was Supreme Pizza and I loved it, which, when did you like I'd like then cross that thing Cross blew my mind. It has this data. surrealist style, shreds which they sprinkle on top and they melt so perfectly it's so good. No, Jerry, no mean no soy, no gluten its frozen, it so easy to make it's! No wonder that day is the number one plant based pizza when I want to eat. Plant based good options can be really limited, especially when it comes to pizza, but now, not only can I Indra one of my favorite meals completely plant based, but the
haste is outstanding all round better than I expected. Try one and see for yourself and prevents of our show data is going to hook. You up with the free plant based frozen pizza, just visit day of foods, dot com, Slash Monica for a free pizza, coop animals last, that's d, a I why a foods dot com, slash monica- This is an interesting that you brought up that word cuz my therapist. I saw my therapist this morning and I was telling her about last week's check challenge as we ended up having to go to the bar by myself last night and my outfit because of a series of events that did not leave me to be able to go on the second date, and it was the day before, and I like got to do something so I put on my outfit and I went to the bar tonight how to drink. I myself there and my thereby today said agree or disagree with Patty, whatever you take from that
goal there, which I do agree with. Is you allowing yourself to be the object of desire, because I think you ve taken that off the table for a long time and I think she's right and I think you're right? I think this is about not feeling desirable, but also one whit. Define desire is to own the wanting. It's actually not adjust about being one tat, yes arable, but about owning the one and when you go in that outfit. She's not. Can I attract someone? The issue is: how do I attract myself? First of all, it does is sit inside of me as I own this. I bring this with me and now, I need your validation in order to know it exists. Exam which he also having come, and in that sense, so it's really more. Do I live
We the that I can own my desires, that if I want some one, it won't be toward necessarily eyes then of itself I can see I want this and I want you and trust that I am one table in return and that you may or may not want me, but it's not going to make me then think that I am not desirable the react. The reaction yeah wanting to see the other person was an interested in me than other attracted do not or not. in a deserving of me, but it's The same is turning debt into. Therefore I am undesirable. I now that seems to be linked to that's given tremendous amount of power to the outside. Now why Phillip? We both do that. I have over time gotten kind of exhausted by that, and I think I just sort of threw my hands up and just stopped so consciously I'm going to shut that off, so that I don't have to
deal with this. I don't have to deal with feeling on wanting or feeling like no matter what Do the person I want, isn't gonna walk or like me or I in so eventually it was like. I resent dealing with that and I'm just gonna be me out in the world, since I've done that I feel good like I feel conflict in my day to day I feel happy, but I do recognize I'm missing this huge component in this big part of life that I want I've almost traded one in four, the other. The first thing is to actually be able to admit that you want it yeah anyone to own it to sit. I I feel confident? I don't want to be constantly measuring. self in all of that, but I would like to have a different kind of relationship in my life. I have the friends, I have close friendships. I have closely subside my family, but I would love to have that other more into.
Loving. You know, whichever ever level of loving bedwin doesn't mean marriage. Children sake. It's just. I want to feel my heart I do not think you wanna tell when you really don't know see if you did I should want it likes Question will always be. Do you want it or do you think you should want? Do you really miss it? When you talk about you? father. I don't have to ask you if you think you should miss your father I see you missing, you father you long. for him. Your heart goes out to remember him. You see him right now, as you talking to me. If you tell me, I think I want a boyfriend you know what I do know is that you have had a very painful heartbreak, but that you cried for a year and that some of that heartbreak often lingers inside of us. Ok so that when you say I don't want this, I will not just take it for as a given
like everyone dig it doesn't given with money. I would say to you tell me more: is it really because you could this moment you have no interest. Will I'm actually asking for her more because she and have a relationship, so she wants something that she doesn't know. She'd That's why I know I want it. I know that there is a peace, not in place again, I agree with you. I'm not saying I want get married. I want to have children, I dont know if I want either of those things to be alone. Like two new love, yes, is fair enough is beautiful and its scary thing to say it is really it's scary thing to say for anybody he asked So you understand, regardless of your particular history or story. It's a scam. Thing to say, because when I say that I open myself up to the world and it feels like vulnerable scary. It snake naked out there with a different kind of naked.
it's an emotional nakedness. I would like to know love, that's it and there is no h for this, and there is no size for this, and there is no reason for this is a human wish yeah. You know I'm at the thought I just came up for me was that I can imagine, Monica expiring, sing around love. What you felt around sex. You wait thirty years. Old- and you probably ask yourself all the time what's wrong with me- I haven't known it, I'm not normal desisted and cheese dancing. The same thing. Around love she's had is assuming that sexual experiences and better is that other things is what's with me amendment two m. Whatever age I am wherever I am in my life, I have never known that. How come what does it say about me? I want to feel and we use the word normal as in to say I want to have headaches access to that experienced and I think all other people have that shit be part of my life, you did it around sex does it around love and I sometimes do
I feel I am I incapable of it. There is also a fear connected to that of war, if I'm not capable of giving I myself in that way or accepting it from somebody else or I don't know. I think it's an absolutely Norman fear to her when you haven't had the experience yeah. part of the MI normal is, and if I haven't had it, then maybe I'm not right. Maybe there's something about me. You know, and you can ask it around six and you can ask it to run love the issue about. You know wanting to attribute this to you now what every challenge has really tried to make you do at this point is deal with a piece of the obstacle yeah. What stands in the way How do you set yourself up in situations that may be more conducive to you now and then
Paris, which one do you think he has been most helpful so far, which when has yielded the most information for you having to guess, I'm on my phone number in person definitely had to start looking actively My eyes were truly open in a in a new way where I was like: okay, who's it going to be who's the person going to be that I'm attracted enough to to give my phone number to. I never tell my that out in the world, I'm never out at a bar and, like I wonder, there is any one. I could give my phone number. Do I'm never thinking Matt, but I had to start thinking like that for this challenge, and that was pretty enlightening to see basely just how many people I'm missing in life. That's one of the bigger take a ways I've gotten. So what You know is that you ve been for quite a few years now, primarily organised what you don't want
and you ve organised your hold her, your whole being in this domain around protection, yes making You don't get hurt, making sure you dont get refused me sure you don't don't don't and that the most, foreign challenges. We'd, be the said another, but what I don't want, but what I want a wish a dream is aspiration for something that you want. It's never for something that you don't want the good linguistic distinction, and in the realm of desire that ever ever more so I have this works, by an scold rekindling desire where I am continuously playing with it? definition that desire is to own the wanting. It is a claim it says I want that is the word desire, but you are so busy with being wanted or not being want that I don't know that you even know what you want you ve been complete. The organised in the other direction. Some thinking all the time.
of what are the multiple ways that you can make statements about. What is it I want not what I should yeah what I should want, not what people expect from me, not what is safe but actually would bold. What is daring where this aspiration and what really expresses the wish and giving your phone, number included that it's an active verb. That's true now That said in the realm of desire, you will find that. Some people have an active desire. They are the initiators there, the strikers in something we'll have a receptive desire or what is called responsive desire. It doesn't just suddenly live, sight of them in ignited self on its own, it is responsive to a situation into a circumstance. Ok, but when you go on a date but when you go and you just even live in a situation where suddenly somebody catches your attention, you are so busy forecasting on your fears that,
having a relationship with this little thing that sits on top of your shoulder that, as you know, and say to this one. You ve been really nice to me predicted of mine, you ve been so swedes for thirty two years you ve made sure, but you know I think, I'm ok. I don't need you in this way, and this one is going. Convince you none at all. You need me bad, you need me, but you don't know how dangerous and cruel the world can be. You gonna give all this power to people the moment you love you, give power to others and they can hurt you, and this is part of love. Yes, it is. Love, doesn't come without loss and doesn't come without fear, but it comes with lot of other things too. You know I would I want you to invite another one to sit on the other side. You need that other one that just has a dialog here. It says, would you please be quiet for a moment? I just turn of this volume. Let me be here and enjoy the situation, see what happens. Yeah yeah yeah,
and aggressive. She is so aggressive. It work she get stuff done. You know she is this powerful then, when it comes to success. So how can we to get your manager? It's a fascinating thing So, first of all, I want with the word aggressive because it can so instantly be missing. Amiss stood, so how I like them. I like it when it connects to the word Azure in France, sure in Latin, which is actually to act aha give meaning to strike to initiate to have a drive in that sense aggressive, and it's not uncommon for people to have ample amount of that energy in men areas of their life and to tread thin in the romantic or intimate sphere of their life. It's just even people who have solid friendships. So it's not like did daunting.
That too, that's why I really want to separate the loved and desired and way you know I could have. The whole thing about rekindling intimacy. But the interesting thing was that I notice that I was working with people who have intimacy. You have intimate friendship to the peace. That is challenging for you is not that it is the erotic, sensual sexual desire part. It is easier and once we have separate those and because they are interdependent, but we really name it for what it is it then it's not I'm afraid of Hostess you're not yeah, I'm afraid of India. see you're, not I'm afraid of commitment, you Not neither I you know, have solid friends, see it's it's very. is it you want to see you? People have fear of commitment. Fear of intimacy. I know you have all of these things you may not have is the integration of the six?
reality and the intimacy of the love and the desire of the sensuality and closeness. It's that yeah and I think before I give channel, Jesus. I first went to really be sure that I have the right definition of what is at stake, otherwise, must appoint, they'll be interesting, but it's not sure that it hits the spot and raise. How do you break someone's patterns of their story about them? As you know, I tell myself air at my narrative are so thick. Give me if all three of my boyfriend's broke up with me, because they lost interest in me physically and the people that I want to date and, like an hour, attract the two are an attractive to my looks
Boyfriends broke up with me because they lost feelings and the guys that I like earn attracted to me- and I have said that I am sick of myself. So hate me understand it a little bit more right pick. One of the boyfriends though, and its most significant, for this conversation the last one and what happened? Our relationship was at a nine ten, never went down over the high he moved in. It was sex; often it was holding hands and public. It was me in the parents. It was sharing the dog, it was so fun at two or three months. for he broke up with me. I know where you together, we were together, I think eleven months than we got back together for three months, so maybe fifteen two or three months before we broke up he broke up with me. He looked at me, Ngos, I'm losing feelings for you and my heart dropped, and you know
access. That's the day I should have said great. I appreciate your honesty. I'm going go work on myself and maybe will you know we can reconvened some other time, but instead I got closer and needier, and I bought him a bike. I went to my boyfriend from my boyfriend. Problems was not a good move, and then that lasted three months, causing feel bad and then he broke up it's a timber losing feeling sweated that mean looking back. I think it mental if settled down and started becoming where life should sit at a six or seven feelings wise and it was became little routine Andy. Thirteen years younger than me- and I was his first love, so he felt were probably norm. People feel- and I think, how manifested for him is he in his tracks, humane and he wanted to go, have open relationship or have someone else come in for three someone that hurt my feelings and was he. I was thirty eight and he was twenty five, so that state
spent. First of all, I am losing feelings, not you not losing feelings, you may say have the same depth of feelings, but you not be as instantly ready to jumped the person and feel like you can't resist and a minute do in front of you. You have to tell their clothes off, you know it's. That is, and I think what for happened here is a complete misinterpretation of what was happening. He misinterpreted it and then you misinterpreted it too. You know the entire city shifts, and if you want to maintain that interest, it needs to be cultivated. You cultivate desire, it's not just endless source that just brings out like that in the most unanticipated spontaneous way? You know he want did to be super spontaneous and ate and to think in a long term. Relationship whatever is going, who just happen already has
and he wanted it to just happened. I should been front end if it doesn't just then means that I don't love you anymore, and this is so pure this is really very, very young as a way of things. I was ready for me, I was, I think you moved in, and I thought this is working. Like this. If any of these patches or low points in our relations we're. Gonna fix it right, not even know are. You are unambiguous, lower and lower this, and I wanted to say this is normal, because I I've had a relationship before, but you gotta touch the stove and see it's hot, but then you took debt and instead of keeping it with he's, really I'm still I'm his first. He has a sense of what one should be feeling and if you're not feeling that in the moment, then something must be missing. Etcetera, etcetera- and you know I need this whole thing and what happens is that you analyzed it then you'd made it not about him, but about you, that's the sad peace
here is that it may have had very little to do with you mean your important, but not that important Sorry we all are. We only had it wasn't about you, but because it played into a story that you had the bird you said if I was really attractive. then he would have continued to be areas. stably, drawn to me at all times without the passage of time, having any significance and that's too bad because it It didn't belong to you re so now the question becomes, you know it and don't think I'm the first person say it to you how Georgia leave it? Yes, totally Surely yes, you know how do you believe it exists how do you, but how do we believe in our day?
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my partner when he she day, whatever go just should a bunch when I admire them and I respect them, and I want to be more like them and when they touch me, any particular way grab my hair grab, my knee or you know, Russell my shoulders or be physical in doesn't have to be sexual as much richest. I you and I'm gonna grab you and I I love that and a ground me. Yes, the knee older the neck. It's the bony handles when they ground me the anchor me with their touch. I am most drawn to my partner when definitely when their doing so thing I can't and there they look up to that. I admired the day. I am intrigued by lightning that I admire, but also to be asked Generally. If it's some thing, I can't do
I m drugged and hat and I'm drawn to touch but nurturing touch, feeling safe and given to yes seen. Maybe I mean others also, some like really like, drawn to humor, maybe first and foremost fix and drawn to my partner when I admire them when they do something that I cant do when they touch me when I feel seen by them when they ground me Wendy. Me laugh. You ve got the main ones by the way, not like this test tube here when they make me the world differently when they chow Irish Wendy, challenged me this quest to me have taken it to twenty something. Come these around the world. It's a fascinating question because it is remarkably similar everywhere.
There's only one answer that is gender specific and that's when She says I'm drawn to him when he plays with the kids. I have yet to hear that in the other direction but the number one is I'm drawn to my. partner? When I admire, when I look up to them when they are on stage at the piano on the horse doing some? that they are confident about whatever it is in there radiant YAP Kay This is the number one turn on. It is its confidence and that has very little to do I've ever I go thousands and thousands of people in nobody's giving me body parts I wanted to, but her head, I like big noses- and I like, what's a hare wrecked, but you may be with somebody who has delivered the hair and a big noses and, if you're not drawn to them in that more wars, none of that will matter right, actually important piece. Yes, around
Basel and desire is not the same right, but I just wanted No, I, like body parts lovely with many of us, do, but the interesting piece is that when I ask about drawn to- but somehow no the distinction that, even when the body parts are there, if they're not drawn to the person, you have through right for men too bright everybody confidence is the number one number two has to do with surprise. see the world from a different angle. When I'm challenged, when you do something, I can't do when you take me to a different place in my mind or or with my senses, its disapproval, Is the unknown? It's the active engagement with the unknown number trees? often when we ve been apart, its everything that has to do with how since and longing fuel desire in our states and number four and has to do with jealousy in width. When I see my partner to the gaze of others, yeah
and they are not just and not just looking at my boyfriend, my my girlfriend, my hobby, my partner, my lover, you know, but I see them as a person in their own erratic autonomy and pretty much across the globe, the same thing and the reason I am saying this is because what it seems to me is to just a theory of desire, in which I want you, More so when you actually are in your own element, when you are rather self sufficient when you are in your bubble, when you are doing that thing that I can't too at that moment, You don't need me, oh wow, and if you don't me, I not saddled with a certain type of emotional responsibility towards you, which gives me, then the freedom to want you to meet.
Wow in if the partner. If somebody needs you, you will take care of them, you will respond with love with care with worry with you, no responsibility, but that's not the same as desired desire. It needs to live in a space that is a lot more free, an unsolved, conscious and free from the burdens of care taking and once I began to look at it like that, I understood that there are few terms that need to be defined. Love is one desire is another they relate. Love and desire they relate, but they also conflict. And here in lies the mystery of a rota system, its number one number to design in turn on arousal, are not the same. Some people start from a place of desire, drawn to you, I'm interested in you. I want to be with you and then comes the arousal, some papers, We dealers and I still am turned down. I see em in the club of the bomb, India, you know and then
Male may not follow the desire. A lot of people who have responsiveness don't start because they were in the mood they start because somebody else's into mood, who is seducing them in talking them into it in a nice way that makes them we willing to engage and weak willingness right it from less of. Let me see I'm nothing to eat right now, but I'm open right, that's gonna, be part of what you only have to do is instead, having the ten messages in your head. That say why? Not to be another voice. That simply says maybe I'm willing, because you no longer the little girl in Georgia that needs to continuously be protected in May sure that she never wants anything. Could that wish you will never be disappointed ray and then the other thing is that when, when you see that other person- and this is for the sustaining of it- and this is what you were boyfriend- their didn't have that when I see this person in their element doing the thing that their good at
interested in their passion. You know: that's it it's a way of content to see someone that you think you already know, still momentarily somewhat elusive and somewhat mysterious. That's what draws you today, because She is how do you maintain desire overtime? What disallow these movement that makes me want. You is the fact that they never have. You and I never have you and I know it ever more so when you are in your own space, doing your own thing, that's where you would you focus on the buddy, you cut yourself short, you really in a way a trap in thinking, and then you gonna have major issues when you start losing you here. Among propitious I lose if owners, but I won't lose won't too much.
Thinking that it's the physical energy, you know you can be in front of someone who is massively attractive to you. If you don't have the desire, if you shut down, nothing will happen. It's not what the other person is as much as what you allow yourself to see. You are, who you of not who loves you know it's both sent. You love yourself more when you I loved by others, people feed us people nurturers, that's exactly where you bottle of that. We are held by others, we are held up by others and sometimes when we collapse, we need the hands of others to pick us up just under need, so we don't hit the floor. Such is the beauty of the relationships were, and friends and lovers, no its, not just it's mine, but it's a good, it's the degree of dependence. If Europe experienced,
valley is so intense tat. It fully resides on the other side than when you don't get it. You collapse. Yeah. You need some of yours that blends in with what you get from others ray and vice versa. I have a lot of friends have been relationships for ever they're married and I think it's interesting and I think the distinctions really good because I think the instinct is to say he doesn't love me anymore. Are, or maybe even them, thinking that like? Oh, I don't know if I love her any more when really it's desire, is what's fading out and that needs to maybe be re length, doors, well like that needs to be further. It needs to be FED Fjords yeah. Cultivated rekindled. Her, whichever you want to use desire, is not just something that sits air stairs as an independent source of energy that you just tap into at all times, re people can't
new to love each other. You know when I did weakening desire which was now that you admitting in captivity the book. What do you do? Yeah does one maintain this thing right, because both of you a thing I want to be in a relationship and a lot of people are in a relationship and they say how do I maintain the intensity the desire the enlivened in my relationship so two different stages in life rye and for those people would say you know the interesting part. since I had is why the six fade so often even for people who love each other as much as ever, because It's a false assumption that I desire you less. It means I love you less. It's not true. Some people deeply care for each other and yet the desire. it's so there was one question I had for the region this, my second one was: why does good intimacy not necessarily guarantee good sex, despite what people want a thing? Why does?
Smith, babies and baby spell erotic disaster in house here when you love, how does it feel and when you desire, how is indifferent, and why is it that forbidden in so erratic and what is the difference between sex in iraqi system? In all of that, I didn't put into the the workshop, and so the first thing is: you know to understand that what seemed at one point to be spontaneous never was that spontaneous meaning this always a plot issue studying the beginning, even if you're on a nap yeah Getting old, turned on by the swipe you're getting all too non by how you getting ready, where you gonna go away, you gonna meet what you gonna talk about. If you gonna talk, talk about anything ve telling a plot, a story in your head, of course, when you arrive your turned on when you're with somebody. The stories in front of you to turn on has to come
from us from a number of things that create energy in you. The first thing about desire, and about ever to see is energy. And everybody knows, energy that put you to sleep energy networks, you up energy. That makes sit on a couch like this right now, I'm slouched I'm on a couch, I'm relaxed. We know it's cosy, comfortable nothing's, going to happen, indisposition re, but if I sit and I leaned forward- and I look at the two of you. and I M alert now I'm curious now, intention and no I'm waiting for things to happen and joy the ratings to happen? That's a very different energy. Yeah many people live in a relationship with that energy no longer appears to tell you in the beginning. We used to talk all the time. It's not just that they talk
their bodies, were leaning toward each other? With curiosity with attention with interest, I promised you they were not spending their time on their phone while they were having their first dates. There were paying attention that is part of the energy for desire and this would be a question- I would ask you- I turn myself off when how do you shut yourself down? Oh and I not the same as what turns me off is, and he turns me off when re too. I turn myself, people will say when I start thinking that you know I'm wearing the wrong closing. I become all self critical in the midst of sitting there when eyes to do that. You may more do come. Look at my phone instead of the person. That's in front of me when I think,
ever gonna work and are going to my whole defeatist speech, literally as I'm sitting there. All. This is interesting because I have the what I would say in its tied to this issue my whole life, which is this real cop out into fantasy, and it was an easy way for me to sort of do at other. People were doing in a fake way, so when's weirdly, like I'd, turn myself off when the fantasy see becomes real. Sometimes sometimes I have the fantasy of I mean I guess it's true leads the faint it's the fantasy of some one who
I felt like I couldn't have when that proves to be not true when I'm sitting and find them we're talking and oh maybe I could have. That does not sit well with me. I turn myself off in those circumstances, this thing that I thought was above me is not above me but in your friend to see you're not rejected now nobody's ever reject out in their faces the correct way, the fantasy the person who are least likely for you to be able to catch their attention once you so badly that you didn't even know it and no man. How many times you say no, they will consistently persistently continue to pursue you because they want to have you and therefore you are going to play out in fantasy the opposite of your fear of rejection, your ears,
but I'll come in. Reality like it could be. The same person like I've had a couple teacher fantasies drawn to people who are in a position of power and if those people Valley did me, it automatically elevates me right there of power because their teachers browser I admire them. I idealize and it's not any teacher and Some that idealise I elevate, and if that person, and is attracted to me than the elevator me, but why don't I like that feel? I should like killing elevated right, but I I don't know it like it is proves that, because in reality it scary to give some buddy so much power and then to live with the fear that if they don't take you along with them if they don't stay interested or that they may be interested to
nay, but if they only knew you a little bit more by too much or they will know better a year in that year. Insecurity will take the better of you and they realize that you are not nearly what this? at first or what you manage to pretend to make them believe that you are that you're not really yeah, I guess of horse that has to be as self defence, that's how they operate in general, so it seems now obvious that that would have been a self defense. Defence, though, I've never put two and two together before the that's, what happens when you know it's? The gradual mark sing like I don't wanna, be a part of a club that would have me. But what does that statement mean it's a powerful statement It is said, says I want you to want me so that I could want myself
If you really want me, then, ultimately, you must be semi blind or not. Wear your glasses today or be more of a fool, because if you were really smart and read your as aid idealistic, as I think you are, you would never want me in the first that suddenly without better, even if you find out the next day, that's exactly right like you are not what I thought you were, if you like me, because if you like, me. You should only see what I see in. That means not good enough right. That's the scripts that needs to be challenged you know, and that means that you re interpret the word confidence. Confidence is not that you perfect, and that your irresistible in that you are flawless, confidence is, as my friend Terry real, so beautifully says, it's our ability to see ourselves as flawed individuals and still
yourself in high regard. I think I have ever do you know. I think you do not have that. Do actually air all my boyfriend's I've I was myself right at the beginning, I mean I remember my second boyfriend while him what you Also. He also part of your narrative is that you bend to the people will talk about that, but not the first day with TIM, we were out in Venice, and I was moving on my drinks around and putting ice teat and putting sweetener in and then had a beer and then enemies, gay, that's no! That was a rag forces us to go, and I moving on my stuff around, I was just being Jes and he goes hey. Are you an addict, and I go my God This is insane and also show we're funny and we hit it off and either for, if I am now doktor, not regardless, it was just I I realize oh you're, being yourself on first date, which was very good feel like I've done, that continuously
yes and Monica right throughout the Dayton process. slowly but surely you know the joke side become what I feel like I they want me to be in order lose them. I will lose a part of me exactly don't want to lose them. These relationships have grounded me these relationships to. We feel better about myself. These relationships have down my main, he is a little bit show. I give them that power when I'm become my better self and I put it on them instead of giving myself credit for it. My damn hearing, you say that to me, if I hear this correct, is that in order not to lose them, you will try to be what they want you to Sometimes, yes, I M neatly, can help being myself on a large presence. I feel, but I went I hear Gregg come home and I was watching a trashy tv show. He'd come up the stairs turn the tv often searching pushups cheese,
I u drawn to the guy that you just went for dinner with SAM is great on paper. When I leave the gym, though I'm not thinking about SAM and I don't know, if I like him or I want him to like me, but this is first time. I don't have these butterflies these. These lightning four SAM, but the It is probably that home now, that's in that, yes, gazettes, our whole auditing, you know did view, is, every relationship starts hot and he then on it, has one direction to go and that's down court. You start after destroying butterflies. Where did people that idea. Some relationships that, like that movie, as I know of yours and somebody it seems tat completely different. They start lukewarm this starting a friendship, this star dinner. Instead of be violence. They start in this is so different from what I've had do
really write so many other ways to start the narratives of desire are way more diverse than the way that we lock ourselves into this in a very few script. So you meet dispersed, and this time don't you're not leaving in their eyes. You gotta know no, which usually last about three days for you anyway. So what does it tell you this time you have to, thing that is slowly slowly kind of entering under your skin in a very gentle way you know and this ding tender about it to something funny kind, this something actually not performative about it, more relaxed its low key little bits, and even if it's I want him to like me, that's an interesting thing. How come why him? And why is it so important I don't know. Why have we just if we, talk about him for a while? Now, because it was this person that have been around for food? five years at the Jim that, the guy. You know, and you usually don't have people
do you know, friends that become boyfriends over or people that you have a different it much more centralized interest in. I think it's needs for you to finally have to an active script in your relation in life here the disease doesn't start from you know, I saw this, but this big, no so these bigger everything that just turn me I went. I swiped I first fuck, then I met the person that had found their name, then women may be for dinner or get out of my mind my mind in this instance. It's like an amnesty, particularly in the Russian. I have no idea of an eminent bid unsettled because it's not the usual and I'm not completely my game, because game is. It works on different principles and yet the something like about this thing a fire she ninety two about its. Yes, I have the same reaction, the same feeling of like this
feels more harmony, nourishing like real. Actually, I think, Your challenge is to listen to this thing with him together. Oh, my God, Jesus believe, aims because It saw exposing right because it's it's another way. Oh I'm! U these feelings and act. I I see where there is one way to tell him, but I dont know what these feelings are, what they are they are you telling me. I have no idea only find myself saying this stuff to this woman who have never met a start, and she made me put this in front of you and because she was trying to take me out of my habitue pattern: and the way that I have known to control the narrative and in this instance dont know it I dont valor and, she said. Listen to it.
With him at bestial boats, its look at each other ants in women to be friends and at us version, it will be when maybe she saw something or send something that we didn't even know was there. This is awful. I'm thrilled. I mean I've been horrified about what you're gonna give me. While I think this is fantastic because you're right, what a girl of the day, what what would be the worst case- scenarios, you're, amazing, jests and yes, we'll be friends but and also earlier. This is something you already feel, so you really have nothing to lose. I guess my insecurities telling me if someone's ambivalent about me, I'm definitely and bill of like that's, not a turn on that he's gotta, you don't know. I also know how blunt two years and he told the guy once I could never form of with you that was his quote.
So you're saying you dont know he might not know yet too, but he knows he like spending time with you. You know you like spinning. with him. That is a given. You guys hang out, and you like hanging out number three put it on me? You can say I did know this crazy woman and I and I have to do it cuz. It's the show how I would never do this and you can sit if you're going. To be blunt to the point of painful. Please spare me I don't want to know it. I will know from what you don't say as much as I will know from what you say, but actually it's not about which you have to say the exercises for me. They decide for me to tell you I'm in unknown territory. This is off, and yet it feels nice. as an I dont have a manic feeling about him. I dont have butterflies for him. I don't leave you know many many guys and my looking they haven't texted me this in that thing takes me back
of any with with this guy. I think it's because with those guys, you feel better than them. So if there- not texting. You you're like why aren't they texting me where what's happening here? So you don't feel like that? Don't you interact this whole thing started because you felt like he was out of you league. So you're not gonna, be like. Why is He texting me right on. Why don't you see the story about the didn't Groucho Marx you have your version you doing. Parallel track of the same thing to find people who don't threaten you. You find people who, if they don't want, you know big loss. You find people that you don't have to experience and rebuild of. Will they accept me? Will devalue me ends
when do you have one time on an equal playing field, or even you admire him or you look up to him or you thought he was out of your league or you know, and suddenly you're issues of self worth are entering the picture, and I think some forty part of any time you want someone and knew not sure if they want you and even if you with a steady partner, you want dunno if they want you as much as you want them. If they still love you as much of this still, I dont think still goes away, I'm thirty procedures with the same person. I think these things, but I consider those things not problems, I consider them fuel of and passion and desired there's a level of that insecurity. That is very important. If you can simply make yourself in situations where you are confident, because the other people don't matter to you as much you never get to experience the real nourishment that comes you get to experience the manic state, the ravenous, that I have to her have to have but a moment I've had a need more because there's a bottomless pit. This is a
very different experience. This is actually more about desire and less about arousal. So I turn So far you have now want to hear I turn my cell phone. I turn my so far when and by Not the same as what turns me on is, or you turn me on. When I turned my son, you could Do it with him one one this is Do it in the rekindling desire. You say sentence you see a sentence. I turned my cell phone. I awakened. Myself I went on without off on when I feel very healthy. I turn myself on when I feel productive. I turn myself on when I feel safe. I turn myself on when I feel I have something to offer. I turn myself on.
About the I want to say it's about. The other powers are merely differently when I turn myself on, because there's plenty of things turn me on rights, but they can't say those if you are shut down, the other some can do anything. if there's no one at the reception disk ride the thing false flat. Here I saw its tempting to want to see when you when day, when he when she, but in fact, if you are not receptive, if you are self critical, if you are- feeling numb. If you are shut down a few are important active mode, the other part and can do anything you fantasize about, like you describe before you will down and nothing will happen. That's why I want. It really see how much of desire is, something that you own so dear my cell phone, I awakened myself I illicit, desire is knowledge thus purely sexual. It becomes
ex relies, but it starts with an erotic energy of a likeness vitality, vibrancy life force. when I do something useful when I'm meaningful, when I matter when I'm important there needs to be a vessel first, that those things and within their the sexual energy takes place. Otherwise you can do what you do and you can have sex with lots of people, but you could just when I I am basically using an ant anxiety now understands the act of sex can represent a lot of things that have very little to do with sexuality and pleasure. I mean it was it was like, as a gym, and then it was going to the bank, and then it was a hook up at one thirty, and then it was this at too I mean it was a part My day like it was so when I think, about rekindling desire when I think about how you into
great desire as part of the fabric of your relationships, sex is a piece of it, but six you can do the acts. X and it has many other meetings that have very little to do with. What I consider is part of sexual health, which is the beautiful integration between safety and pleasure, and I've had planned if Saxon in this new thing, that your teaching me that I'm literally going through at the moment is different and I feel different and it is exciting. So we ve got your challenges. You meet SAM and you tell him- I don't even know how I got to talking about you. You know that it followed the previous challenge, and then I just realized is something that I am enjoying here. It's really unsettling this uncomfortable it slightly. It's on this perilous edge between here and fascination, You know, and this lady may me do it, because the erratic it's dead,
combination between anxiety and excitement between fear and pleasure. It. It's lives done that space, That's where you gonna just tell him. I don't know myself. I just know that this sum thing here that I really appreciate, and I just wanted you to know now we go to you but it has to be said. sitting in which you bring your assertiveness Certainly, this is what we have just discussed. when he says, look how she saw a girl get her and so are able to go in and want and claim and when it big it when it to do its work, but doesn't none of that when it has to do with intimacy Is there someone in your life that you know has been waiting for you to notice that they are looking at you? There was one send. But then I went on a date with him via this and what happened we went on a day. It was nice. What does
that mean life on a date of had it was nice tendencies to me like I'm, not great. We went for Drang I know I'm not asking you if you had chocolate made familiar, I now, but we were just Chad, Ed, but you chattered. We did guy for many times before, but because you didn't have to frame date. It was perfectly pleasant Well, we didn't show that many times before, but the that you were on the date Mitya constantly check. How is it going ahead this? Why am I here? I shall be doing diseases airing. So what do you turn yourself off the entire time you where there are your challenge, a challenge. is to basically dont go to a bar, the majority of day should be done in motion, it's crazy thing for people to sit across the table, an interview each other, as if their at a job interview then go and experience something together. I agree. Good take. A bacteria
good, see a show, God listen to live musical, go walk around move, first of all, you'd been parallel. Ok, you nonsense, Their frozen seated looking at each other waiting for something to see something interesting. Ok, and then just say we will not last time away. We had to drink less time and I think in your head, dont say this to him. I basically managed to torpedo the holding there was no chance that distinct could be pleasant. I'm not talking about this guy becoming your boyfriend or any danger saint pleasant your challenges two weeks have an experience one that is pleasant, pick your guy, but the exercise is for you to go and do not Let the frame yeah undermine you, ok, that, because this thing is called a date right, it now has to fulfil
and you're, not going to let that mission be fulfilled because you're going to be talking to your little one here is going to be in Tiertime. Tell you all the ways in which this is never going to work. Where I am not saying you should pump yourself up and say this is going to be The band of my life, I'm just saying pleasant pleasant for me- is without this negative infusion. Ok, that undermines you and brings the entire history of relation in life with you. That's the goal, because everything you ve done in your challenges. Even when you sat there with you very revealing clothes and noted that you sat there thinking what the hell am. I do all this is long overdue, and I you know you can do this the same way that people have sex and feel nothing yeah so you were doing sexy things. While you are constantly undermining yourself in a defeatist way. There
no way that this can be enjoyable and sexual health is safety and pleasure. There is no pleasure is no desire. Kay. While this is also interesting because it it's reminiscent of what doktor drew was saying to me about stop putting confines on all of this, he's like just go be with people, but there are challenges had nothing to do with. That said, though, this is good. man. You can say to the person I want to challenge this woman. She told me that when my little voice, your starts to defy me and tell me how this going to be miserable, is going to be unbearable. It is difficult going to teamwork and his son is not going to be pleasurable in what the hell am. I doing here that I have to first turn: attention turn up the volume and just say: excuse me, but you're not invited here tonight, I'm actually headed a nice time. Would you would you mind letting me be thirty two, because I'm not
anymore at thirteen in Georgia. Yes, if I talk to myself, that's what it had to fly, and I have read my talk to myself, my shoulder and so like there's a little miniature goblin reliable, exactly exactly, but you make fun of it. I know- and you just say she just asked me to make sure that the goblin mistaken care, because otherwise we are going to have a good time. You and I the exercise is not who you wit, yeah even in what you do. You have done six different things, but you ve done them all with the same mentality. Yeah right your frame, mind, has been the same in every one of those situations. It doesn't matter if you would be drinking tea or dressed in a difficulty. You are sitting with the same mindset. I am saying pick the situation. You want the challenge for you is the mindset yeah. It's the narrative that accompanies you, attack you're going date with a story Story is dictating. your entire interaction, yeah you're right. It does
matter who you with, because the story prevails. I know so, maybe or with stories whatever there is yeah everyone as there are in the majority of advice, is given about changing the situation yeah. But if you good view can have tense situations with the same story, the story prevails. Goblin is with the person you want to address. You wanna say you ve, been there. kind to me. You took care of me. You made sure that I didn't get hurt ten times before, but I'm ready I'm ready to, even if a mood I can handle it, yeah yeah you're, going on a date not with the person, but with this yeah and anyone and now switch it so that you can be on a date with another person and not with your history. O s story. Did it again. You blew our minds again like to thank you so much. This was so helpful or so grateful will. Let you know how I go yes, very
they very much and everyone please check out rekindling desire workshop, see you can be hands on with all this so rekindling desire is on a step, rural that come ok and with that the monthly newsletter and blog, where I go deeper into a lot of these things, including a lot of the situations that we described today, are on my Youtube serious called moments. Ah, I saw I basically in addressing many of these issues on multiple different platforms, indifferent formats, wonderful, but it's all with the idea of helping you create driving relationships, deal with your fears. Experience desire redefine healthy sexuality and have a full life. So you re my pleasure,