I'm Monica a k, a miniature mouse. I love boys, but I dont have one and in fact I've never had one. I could probably count on two hands how many days I've been on in my entire life- and I decided it sounded change that high I'm just an I love was true and then the opposite way of Monica. I can't come on over hands in Amerika homely people about six weeks, and yet I still don't have a boyfriend, and I want one, an armed acts and I love Monica and just so many ways they have partners, and that is a huge mystery to me, because they're both incredibly attractive so fond so smart and have so much to offer. So we decided to do, was examined these unhealthy patterns and bring an experts and outsiders to help critique us. Advise us guide us

pretty much called bull shit on us, so that we can find the romantic companion that we're looking for. We started this. Thinking it was gonna, be just q, little dating challenges that we would go on and talk about and laugh about, turns out. It is very hard to be vulnerable in real time in public so a brig sire so alone we romanticize pathological one. How much you want love got, you can't even get the sentence out. I would just eat around it's a little self, and why do I want something? And then why have I Signed it if we must put the chairman, the water for the sharks to combat Hanukkah's like so, apparently I have to join Riah sweetly legs, you don't even have a kiss to hear anything frontal lobe issues in the warehouse Bravo cut tat what you should be doing, serene every night robs to uncomfortable. For this. Please enjoy part nine Mont again, just love love addiction. Withdraw

their Alex Quetta HAWK S store. They don't like all right guys we did it. We had some technical difficulties, as is the new normal but that's ok! We're here, we're part nine of my can just love. Boys are second to last episode in this is truly this the last episode with the real expert next week, will be our parents Grissom and acts, and it will be more of a red cap of our journey so there

is our last real app and we so excited, because we have an amazing gas that I'm sure many people remember from armed. Her expert drugs can a hawk s were so grateful. Thank you which for joining us, think you you're welcome. Thank you for having me I've been from the Gatt go Rob, and I were talking about who we should have on your name popup immediately, because you know so much about this world in the idiot sink receives a bad, and so we are really excited to get your puts, I guess. First though we should pursue a follow up of our challenges from last week, which Dan Savage gave ass soon and my I challenge beam Oh really really interesting point. He Sab. Women operate often subconsciously, unconsciously out of fear in dating situations, and that's a very real thing in a very necessary thing because

as women can get physically overpowered and have often been put in situations where they feel power? Listen, you know. All of these things that add up to us putting a lot of walls up, for we are able to get physical and day. He was noting that in the gay community, which just as gay that they don't have bad as much, especially in the mail gay community that are really have that So for me, he wanted me to have a sleazy and our action to start with the sleazy interaction. Hurrah oh my God I'm so excited by the way I'm freaking out. So here's towns to me was to have phone sex or sex texting interaction with some one and he was like maybe someone from an app basically a stranger and

so I did that and I'm not gonna tell fur this person sake and privacy and consent to I'm not going say anything about who that person was or how I found that person, but I did and was it was really fun, really fun fell, exciting and felt titillating felt safe, like I did not feel scare roads I thought I was going to. I thought I was gonna have a lot of veal around it. I was, of course, very nervous to get that interaction. Go being, but yeah I mean I was thinking like if from day, one We started this of some one said at some point: your child just gonna be to have phone sex or sex staying like act, sexting with a stranger I mean I would have just been like new. Couldn't pay me

in dollars and I would never do it and I did so would had you taking the challenge that just because he felt like you had to or is there something intriguing about it good pleasure I think, I mean I'm so Taipei, I'm so rule Follower II that there's not going to be a piece of homework that I don t- in properly, as you know so, there's there where once it was assigned those like ok, I I'm gonna have to figure out a way to do this. That's the way felt after every challenge, by the way like every single one has been like whole boy, all right, I guess I'll figure out how to do it, like none of them have been see. You think the previous challenges made this one easier for you think so I think they have been building on each other and maybe not even in in that the challenges have been building. I think confident

has been building, and this idea that, like I can't do it, I can do all these things. That seemed possible they're, not end. I think that's more. What is just like jumping these hurdles and getting on the other side of it and saying like oh, I did it so it makes it feel like whatever challenge comes, I could probably do that to spin. A very interesting ride. Bulgaria was fun and it was in tents, and it was a hundred. It was not kid glove her exchange. It was a full blown exchange Do you get horny? Yes, that's awesome, yeah, it was it was. It was can you imagine contacting this person again? Yes,

and that was sort of a part of it. A lot of the exchange was talking about the future, not like we're gonna, be in a relationship, but just like way we get to be together, I want to do then I say so. There was a lot of like projection to the few Georgia first I was like. Oh, oh, no, like that felt scary, the felt like an expectation, but then I was like who cares and also cause of this corn t stay in place. I don't even know one that will be at our need to worry about that I'll just be present, and I was able to do that. How did you leave it with the person? It was left with a little bit of an ellipse seas of like next time, or There is some open ended, as it did not feel like an open and shut. How much of this did, you feel was was at their appointments. Got about the show in Europe a hundred percent price

in arrears and always like a part of this is because I have to do it when I was starting it was like. Ok, I have to do this. I have to do this, but once I was in an enemy, This was also like over an hour to one year It was a long time and so maybe was hanging over my head than this is for the show. But I wasn't actively aware of that during but as soon as it was done, I was like. Ok I like by, like I checked it off, the lists of air but I was still like, oh that was fun and exciting, and I did it and I'm glad it's done. Earned of these challenges that Utrecht off the list, even though its one step or maybe a half step back, you're still a half step, better, every single time, but there is no fucking way. You would have done this, months ago, no way no way at all. It seems to me one of the big victories in this, for you Monica was what you said about. I don't have to get uptight about the future.

As hey we're all in self quarantine and taking that pressure off your south is a really good reminder that when you start to date, people live that it doesn't have to be a type a checklist. Just a momentary experience exactly Let me just see what this is like: it doesn't really have a meaning or agreed to it. Just what about your challenge I challenge was long story short doktor Alex for me. I've had a four year sexual relationship with a guy named archer for four years. All we have is sex, but throughout the the years I've realised this guy's kind of cool, I'd like to meet a certain point. He's kind of this in that and- and I was like this it is always in my life still and generous, like that's a relationship whatever you want to consider it. She said so why don't you have a date with him? He also said had phone sex, but I said I'll try but to use his parents and Pennsylvania and he's quarantine than

I would rather have a real day so We had an hour and a half day yesterday and is really really awesome and its soul. Trusting that we leave. With sex when both of us kind of these guys are workin on ourselves and the conversation was about his parents and how Cove it is acting his self isolation and how he doesn't want to zoom with his friends, because all they do is talk about covered, that we start about us, and it was really nice to hear it. He's zooms therapy twice a week for him. He basically said now that I've heard a little bit of your podcast and now that I've worked on myself, I was an open to meeting you four years ago. Our home I came in I moved out here from the EAST Coast left all my friends are left my family to open this start up business which he now has a sea of he goes. I was an open to it and I see- now and they go. Oh, that's really honest: have you appreciate that,

so it was really a beautiful time. I smiled at the end of it, and I kind of like him, but the thing that I like about him is that don't need him, which is really really awesome all my axes that they would ever happen, and I I need neither need, but this guy's been in my life for four years and he he's never been mine, so I dont care and that has grown into. Thing. That's very you know Esther prowl talks about, and so do you about love that real love, is like. I want the best for you So when I hung up with them, I was like I'd really like this guy and I might never be with him and that's. Ok, How is that changed your orientation and towards the more compulsive ways that you have sex and what have you What have you learned about? What that sexual compulsively does for you will through all of this, that it was a time in my life where it was serving purpose, whether that was anxiety or whether that was need for attention?

or whatever it was, but I don't have that as much anymore. When you say any more. You mean, since you ve been doing this podcast or just life just life. Ok, I probably might have it once called it has done and trot deafening a hook up with guys again it's not out of my body, but I have said many times now, since all of this is happening, it has slow down a lot right, but also, I have to say I noticed when we were setting up and you couldn't quite get year and everything working that your anxiety kind went through the roof that you had a hard time. Just right, violating yourself and knowing that this was going to be. Okay and Rob is awesome, I mean, but yet you're you're arousal system is starting to get pretty hot, like a very short views, and I can't help it wonder how much you use sacks, even when you say I'm gonna, probably hook up after this because how you manage your anxiety and how you ve always managed it a sure o

not just that I'm in food, ok to use. I mean we have a lot of discussions about this addiction thing and I definitely fallen. A higher scale of addiction and most people do not have secret stolen. I dont have shame about my life as much and yet a touchy subject for me. Definitely. This has been a huge reason why we think here specifically able to have this these conversations with us, because addiction comes up and uneven addict an OECD. These mechanisms were using too regulation will have come up throughout this podcast in our lives. It just comes up in our lives in conversation all the time- and I know India, you know so much about love, addiction and sex addiction and addiction in general that I do think it's all very relevant the way we both behave. So my question is

specifically in this Saxon love way, is it only labelled in addiction of their consequences? You know it's. A funny word and a lot of people rail against that word. Addiction literally is defined as a strong predilection for something, and I think in the addiction circles like the world of twelve step. It's when people feel demoralization when they feel like you know they have all this unmanaged ability and messes in their lives and for people that are you're functioning those this is, can be much more subtle like mean. I just can't put together an inch, relationship, but I dont care because I'm a modern woman or a modern man and I dont need that and that's a choice Today I mean there's no one correct way to live, so if somebody wants to be

real monogamous or they wonder just baby. You know multi sexual pan, sexual, you name it. Then that's! That's! Ok! It's just a question of what do you want and I think that's what's been so lovely about this podcast. The two of you is that you started to question. Well, what am I doing, and what do I actually want and that's a hard question to answer, especially when you be I'm so adaptive in your strategies for her you manage in life and so five years from now. Monica do you wanna be living alone and, having you know, texting sex with people I would be fine if you do, and just five years from now. Do you still want to be having anonymous sex with guys Can you imagine a life with archer or someone like that? We're having a different experience of yourself? That's all so it's not judgment it's not in a normative it's just. What do you want

that helps a lot, because you're right that word, addiction is very triggering for most people, because it's a black or white thing. And the first episode of this part gas Dax looked at me and he goes what, if you were an I am, do you look less of me, you know, and I and the more I talk about it, the more I am open to that. I am open to because it is just a word and I think, there's of wide range of annex I guess there is and that's that about addiction. It's not a one size fits all situation. Everybody does their addiction indifferent way hits but people have a commonality underlying all of it, where they might feel isolated. Or alone or like they can't get certain parts of their lives together, and that's where I think people helping people is enormously helpful. Its tricky has,

I do think we all we want camps like we want, I'm an attic door, I'm not an attics, but I think there is this sense that if you'd come to terms with the fact that maybe you are that there there there needs to be some step, to get out of that sure, and I think it's worth trying and on four size, because I think you know we could say that for You Monica you're avoidance, your lover wakened yeah height justice sex addicted. You can use those constructs as a way to think about something, but doesn't mean that you have to collapse down into it and that is a shaming or finger wagging construct either. It's whereby tried that and what does it mean and what are the things I can do or use of that system to help may start to change in ways that are fundamentally important to me, I think free you Monica. You know you were saying that you know it was skin,

before you and Dan was pointing out to something that I think is more evolutionary unless psychological that women do have to be protective, we can be penetrated, we can be overpowered and if you experience any kind of bullying at all, child, you already have those defenses set up and they ve become quite strong over time, but when you can call forth your adults, Tell if say wait. A minute pleasure can be fun can't do it in a way that safe and that, really kind of sexy in heart and what would happen if you put that together with somebody you know if you went on active date, like the guy you and on the date with. Was he attractive to you in any way: yeah he is he is I mean I do this thing which I'm really trying to break out of, which is it's hard for me to say, like yes, yes, he's attractive without saying a hundred other things

By doing this about em others, this you know it's hard and evaluate the whole person or try to look ten years down the line I mean I'm really actively trying hard to not do my in seeing did is definitely my instinct. That's all of Europe, control and you're. All that analysis is very, very controlling and its defence against mobility, as opposed to what, if I just take this one day at a time and see and notice. How do I feel in relation to this person? Definitely- and I wonder if that will eventually become second nature, or I'm always going to have to remind myself either way. I think it's ok. If I have to remind myself as of right now I do. I still have to remind myself, but when I started this, I was not even at that. I wouldn't even at the point where I could be aware of it remind me

self to get out of it and then move for Ito. This working on yourself, this such a slope That is a learning process right and it is a minor on this practice because the inertia that would be just noticed. You know your anxiety and say why I my knee jerk reactions to go hook up with somebody in lunges sex to make this feeling go away? I would if I just took a deep breath, and I didn't do that. What else might I do yeah these are my fires, practices that will you brought it sex addiction to me I would maybe thing I'm more of a love act in the sense that the despair you know my question for you during this time. Is this thing I'm suffering with which I've had for a couple years now, which is united I descend a couple pictures to my best friends Eric, so I had to go to my computer and I saw hundreds of pictures of me and my axe, and it was just this

This overwhelming nostalgia and this attitude I have just thinking of that. It was perfect Oh yeah ran wasn't and I want to reach out to him and I wanted to send them all these pictures and I've done for many many years with this guy great. What do you think, especially now and when people private began to their axes, gives its watery eyes. Actually, what is your thoughts about nostalgia? What are you hoping What do you imagine it's going to happen and in your perfect he's, gonna miss it too I'm on his mind all the time when I'm thinking about him. I send him these pictures and puts him an emotional quicksand. This thing this, like it's been for years in you, what you know my acts. He was the best. I dont know what I think about, but it goes on. Like an hour or so yeah, but that is also dissociated and that's a fantasy that is dissociated you're, not present at all, and you are creating

this sort of Epic Lee proportionate SOAP opera about. Think that's just not real, and you can spending all of your time in that, and not in dealing with the awkwardness and the uncomfortable of getting to know somebody in real time so near creating something that's not real. And there's also power and control, and that I think Jas there's power that I'm wanted Somebody is in quicksand, I know because they want me so badly and they miss me and then sounds like an old old wound me this desire to be loved and wanted and held and care four yeah than those. Also. This idea of reciprocity, though, like you you are and am in, that our your and emotional quicksand ensue. You feel like well. I hope he feels the same way because were the same like you want these feelings of equality

hammer. You don't feel under this matter than you are he's moved on or he's in a different place, and so you want to be in the same place, and which you are right, and I have a lot of shame about that. As far as that this person for four years, still holds this park in my mouth brain in my mind that I wish wasn't there yeah and you write that is sort of quintessentially love addiction just holding out of the fan of sea. If somebody in actuality, really don't want to be with, which is why you broke up or they broke out right, and you know that real, but it's a place holder for being able to scape into when being in the present or being in your body or being in your anxiety, being alone in your house, for whatever it is now. Thirty: two hey his of issues too uncomfortable to bear yeah. I wondered about that too, with love addiction, because we ve talked about this before all of us have died suddenly has this before, but I have so much fantasy. I've always had so much

and to see in my life and even even if this is so embarrassing to say, but I will say it because I guess this is what we do here but when I was first signed this sexting phone sex challenge, I had like an immediate plan that was me connecting with a person who I have fantasy about, but there is. There is a real connection to this person in my brain. I was fantasizing about the idea of doing this with that person and. Like. Maybe I could find a way to do that and then I ll. Just ass, I was like I want to with axe person and he was like classic. Ban at sea- and I was like my god- that's right, I hadn't even put two and two. Together, that I was doing bad

that it was never going to be a reality that I was going to do that with this person em guess. Can you be a love attic who hasn't been in love. Sure yeah, because the love aspect is in love with the idea of being in love. They can be with anybody, we really even the same same sex person. If you, if you're, not gay, if you're a woman, you can be love addicted to another female who you wish, you could be like you imagined she so cool. Are you like the way she dresses or she's got success in some ways and you had a grand eyes her in your head, so yes, because I think it becomes a barrier to actually loving because actual love is really slow. Its very analogue. We are also having to deal with the persons humanity. You know if they ve got food in their tea. Were breath on day or it's not the intensity that you were talking about. Just that

embedded in the Gregg fantasy. I know now the thousand infatuation shareholder was love to be honest, ha right, but love addictive. Analyses are somehow you know, torrid an amazing and intense and We have no means of that in love relationships for sure We had a moment of great hot amazing saxon moments of deep love in moments of joy and laughter by it it's not a happily ever after story. That's to lie that we ve been told collectively its hard work. As you said, Monica It's a lot of work to really start to get in. Oh yourself, and why you do You do and to be mindful about it and say: oh well, there's that analysis again or where are they my anxiety and I went to lunch at some person. It's like I'm not going do that? I'm gonna do something different and see what might emerge that might be unique in this moment here, so that

about loving yourself, taking yourself on getting to know yourself deeply lay so that then you start out the confidence to be vulnerable enough to bring that to another person who actually can hold your heart and your being in kind. That second, trash it or make fun of your bully you or some other nonsense. Yeah I mean that's was almost ironic about some of these funds. For me, anyway, these fantasies, these people they're all people I would probably feel scared to alike. I would be obi mortified, a fine food in my teeth in front of you know, like I,

he's scared to be human Arap. I wanna be perfect. Riviere challenge. Fifty guy, without fail in our teeth that these fantasies, these people, that you put on pedestals, that you want them in a similar way. The just was saying he he wants Gregg to being the quicksand like. I want that person to see me like. I see them, right, but you see how controlling that is how how died, of course, that of eradicate see your humanity gas beauty your imperfection in itself interesting, because when we started this I'd cast in a rob was kind of directing There are technical issues and there's something really sort of sloppy. An imperfect about it, but we have no problem with that right. We the as we trust that something is going to emerge out of this conversation and it's gonna go

gather and it's gonna click and it's gonna be really cool and amazing yeah, and yet, when it comes to just kind of hanging out some person, some guy, presumably for you, you dont trust that either me it's gonna be made or it's not and that's what chemistry is and you might have. Time with somebody, but that's that or you might just feel, like you're amazingly turned on by them, and super excited yeah and just let it and see what happens you saying you need a white shirt like been on this nice white shirt and you can go try on fifty white shirt and there never quite right or tailored, and at some points I just pick a fucking shirt, just take it sure it's good enough, put it on and go right We are supported by helix sleep

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raining side, I needed to watch the movie that night I woke up in the morning. I said I am watching the favourite tonight, so I posed meets a dvd player and that's how reliant I am on it. Apart from dvd players, they also mainly Food delivery and I order food all the time we order food. Yesterday we had blood so's, you ordered to your house and I ordered it to mine and we ate it over virtual chat? Yes, it was really fun so fun they deliver food from every restaurant. I can even think of it doesn't just delivered burgers. Is she. They make life easier with grocery delivery and pretty much whatever I can think of delivery, so no more troops to the store and no more late night fastfood runs just down

put me down. I o s or Android, find your favorites and get anything you want delivered within the hour for a limited time, post me does giving our listeners a hundred dollars of free delivery. Credit for your first seven days guys do this to start your free deliveries, download the app and use code, love boys, that's code, love boys for a hundred dollars of free delivery, credit with no minimum purchased for your first seven days you download the postmaster anything you need any time you need it post made it ever question gives you brought up me being, which I think is actually accurate and me. Being avoid ends in may be the opposite. That is addictive. What are these categories of pattern? I guess that people followed to row longer times inner for use again. This particular system of thinking about things in the love attics lives in fantasy,

and fantasy about the ideal person and its away to not have to get out of their comfort soon out of there. I avoidance actually arrive, home you're just little world and go connect with real life, human being so the love, attic, love avoidance or sort of flip sides of the same coin in love with the idea of being love and set a really being in love with another human being and they serve each other and you know, staying safe and that sort of the name of the whole game is all stay safe and some of attics released, to get involved in relationships with people that are patently unavailable, and they they tell themselves that they have more of a capacity for intimacy and they really do want to be in a relationship, but in fact I'm always picture nice that are unavailable and its equal. That's because you really can't connect with somebody. You have as much difficulty with intimacy as they do right right.

So what are the out? I mean I know you said like if you find yourself in these patterns, what do we do? Well, I think you're both starting to do or your both starting to we have identified the patterns and then you're starting to take what they say in the programme is contrary action like that, feels really uncomfortable. So I have to go. Do that thing, and its in that that you bump up against your defences and your fears And you start to see like that, wasn't so bad, it's like you're, the first we heard about french kissing, like what was your reaction to that. Dear member, I thought it was a food, You thought I was a fool. He wrote about you. How are you Monica when you first turn about it may be age exercise

Well, yeah, that's generally, when kids, here about it like seven or eight years old and generally their reaction is like. Oh, my god, it's the most disgusting thing. I've ever heard, why would you want someone's wet tongue in your mouth yeah, yeah nasty and then the time you get to be thirteen fourteen years old, all your friend you're doing it. So you think I'm gonna try this on right. You settle yourself down and you try it and it's a little weird and freaky, but eventually start to really like it, and so what previously gross and disgusting, all of a sudden is kind of hot thing, that you want to do all the time and that's how we grew. Developmentally when it comes to sex and relationships, are whether we're talking about sex Monica for you or intimate see. Just for you, which is really being relational with somebody, is their awkward, difficult, squeamish sort of feelings. That is adults we have to tolerate in order to grow

and change, and that's true for anything and if you were gonna, learn Mandarin chinese you'd, be like all my God, my heads killing me. I can't do it. My anxiety is going up and yet, if you settle yourself down- and you just pay attention eventually you'll be able to say you know, I'd like to like an hour of a growth try yeah, but what's funny, as wit, so you're you're walking us through this time. Line of you know, you'll learn about it, it's grows and then you hit thirteen fourteen can you try it for everyone, but all I can only speak for me. There's like roadblocks right till I get thirteen fourteen when everyone you know at a my school, it was if you could unwrap a star

first wrapper with your tongue. Heroin said you are good kisser. That was like a whole thing of Athens and any now I remember I was talking about. Then it was like kissing and people were kissing her the bleachers, and it was like starting to become a thing and end. Then that was the age were I felt the most rejected were I felt like I liked people. They didn't like me back or I want to try it, but nobody wanted to try it with me and so once these road block start getting in the way, of this trajectory. I think it like derails sure that's what happens on me. There's a developmental do away I was heartened to somebody earlier this morning, actually about this, whose gay and who comes from a certain necessity and just about how being gay was a sin in his culture when how he didn't really come out to his parents to lose twenty heaven and then you know said

having a normal developmental trajectories a fourteen year old boy who gets to have a crush on a boy and then go to the equivalent of problem with the boy and sort of, what normally date it gets down and then by the time he's out of college man he's like off to the races right catching up in making up for lost time because he's sort of developmentally sexually mature at that point so yeah? We can get stunted in our sexual growth and development, and then spend a lot of our adulthood trying to another a lead and make up for that time, That is our story, right Vivian levelling eyes, look either. This is one of those men of paradoxes and being a human being, but we all he'd validation? We're not meant to do this alone. We need to know that you are. That looks good. That sounds right or wow. You know. Maybe you can tweak this a little bit here there we need feedback, and yet, if we,

are solely reliant on it. Then we become crippled and if we're completely needless and want less than we really become crippled in a different way where we feel Iceland that alone. Lonely unlovable a damn You name it and so striking a islands, where you know you become hyper independent. Monica where I dont need anybody I can have success and do everything on my own on the street a sudden and super capable yeah. Does it make a space for someone to desire and to compliment you and to want you. So it's enormously brave of the two of you, because you're making yourself so vulnerable, it's like you're doing therapy and in front of millions of people, and it's also a good sort of compass for you to say that these, with the same kind of conversations you wanna have a someone you dating someone, you just get you. I know you know to go on a first

eight with someone Monica and say to them, you know what I've never done this before. I'm really nervous right now, yeah and thank you for just kind of tolerating my corking us are goofy Nelson, oh wow, right just that takes such confidence saying but you're doing it on air? That's my payment! Yeah! It's true because I also I had a date this week. Another date that someone reached out and we had a virtual happy hour and he reached out because of butter of whose the shore armchair whenever, but he knows my story and he has had many relationships and in another circumstance I would have been very scared during that conversation, and even at the beginning of this, I went on a date and someone was talking about their relationship history and then there are asking

about mine and I was very scared to answer truth fully and even just at the end of this. I just said, as we were talking ass, a boy you know I I haven't had any real serious relationship. So I dont know about this, and I just like said that very plainly does awesome in it. It does Villa like a cop out because he already knew. I wasn't telling us of the he didn't know, but it's still, felt o k, saying and just being em in Kosovo. Another egg there's nothing! I can do about that. That's who I am that's my history and all we can do is change the future right. So that willingness to be authentic to be transparent. To say this is just to a hammock I've, brown, hair and brown eyes. Oh well, that's just how it is Yeah is incredibly liberating and there's a lack of protectionism, and that too, that you get to be. You know

messy and who you are and not invent some romantic past yeah these are more. You do that the easier it's gonna get for you also, I mean I can never lie about my age anywhere on these acts, because I've said I'm forty three hundred thousand it's true, oh my god that Israel wound design about that, when we started this. I was begging just to put his actual age on these

eggs how he truly physically could not do it right now, but I have a couple more questions just about like your field of work and relationships and general cause, we took the little bit with doktor drew about attachment her an early attachments and stuff, and I wonder if you have any thoughts on these early attachments, we form and how they manifest in our lives, as we grow sure and into its different for everybody, because you know you, as I recall, a story of rejected and bullied. Also. Is that correct and I would definitely not call it bullying, but I just grow up in a very white tao right. I mean there was a couple instances of getting peck dine that felt here.

To me right or not that I think I was alone in getting picked on or that white kids weren't also getting picked on road, but I ran in a very white, Sir Gall, and so I stood out. I think ass, different right right and that can be shaming in and of itself that that feeling of being different, yeah and so, and what about you is there any trauma in your background, Jessica, infancy, childhood oh yeah, divorce, four years old, my mom moved away and my dad took me to live, Sweden and then there's someone action in my family as well so at for he took you from your mother. My mom had in it action issue. I wish you had twenty two and my my dad took me. From her and moved to Sweden with makes you play while there and then that sobered, my mom up actually and she's had an amazing life sense right.

And you know what shape she was and when she was pregnant with you, when you were born where she drinking in using no, she was so she started being bad. When she was thirteen fourteen met, my dad Qana became good again. During pregnancy was good and then point three years old, the end on born, and she goes back to her old bad habits. Chair I said there is an example of a young mother whose probably very disregard lay dead. To begin with right, she's got her own challenges and then she gets pregnant and her ability to attuned to the infant is probably Optimal, we can put it that way and her anxiety then gets literally downloaded into the nervous system of the infant and

if the intergenerational transmission of even alcohol as in the few will because people that are aka Hollis, almost always tell you they drink because of their anxiety, the social lubricant. They call it. So that's the way that some of these things can get passed down or that addiction quote gets ass down, is that if we can regulate ourselves and we don't have a caregiver that can really attuned to the infants most nuanced and exquisitely sort of micro needs that mothers, red instinctive away and they're not repaired with great regularity, you're gonna get a child that is anxious or depressed or disregarded in some way is and as that kid grows up, if this persists or there is a divorce and there's more anxiety in our kids find drugs, call sex, you name it to make themselves, feel better wealth, and so I think what happened for human

Is it you just shut down because you felt rejected you felt other. You felt shameful, so you to shut down and you over compensated with your intellect. That's the way that you got through, but the problem is that these become adaptive strategies in brains and in our nervous systems, and so we are, thing but a series of habits for the most part. Anyway, though, the as these things that previously serve to protect us all of a sudden sir to become like an l betrothal because we keep doing it, and over and over again and in some ways its quote, who we become so these things can get set up early. On envy, you know. Typically, this is very gender bias, but the mother infant Dyad, the mother is doing her best to attuned to that infant too regulate that infant and sometimes

mothers and infants can't really find their timing with each other. So you get a chronically fussy, baby or chronically difficult baby, because the mother herself, so upset and anxious, and it's like a catch twenty two, the more anxious she is the more anxious the infant gets, the difficulties to sue the infant The infant in at its worst will dissociate at some point. Then you ve got very, very deep structural long term problems. If that happens, I definitely pushed it all away like I love telling people at a great chowder decide to set the families but the the matter is from four to seven when, as flying back and forth between Sweden and allay, I would cry for three or four days: I myself in the airplane at five years old you now when my mom driving me the allay acts to go on a plane by myself at five years old, tried it

have the steering wheel and change your money. I don't wanna leave right. I mean this is a six year old chest which is like I could cry now about because I loved my whole life saying how great they are, and they are great, may learn some watch him. They have given me so much. You're, even know what that's, how that six year old feeling affected me. That's all I mean that is profound and in men and separation in society, and that a child that age needs apparent to enow, rub their chest and rub your back and hold you and tell you it's gonna be ok. All of that. Regulating you didn't get you just sort of thrown in his tube and shovel back and forth. Across the ocean- and I didn't know till I was twenty wires even taken away yeah, you know. So I had no idea and then, and then I found it but my mom wouldn't sleep for a month after a while I was

Sweden crying. You know right so there's terror that also and that terror could have been dissociated at some point and then, all of those affected feelings get acted out in the main language of sex. You know I love me, want me, don't leave me, I'm not gonna get to connected to people because I'll be abandoned amid the whole story. Ways out in the sexual behaviors yeah and I cried so much over Gregg. Of course, some left me again and maybe why you're so afraid to get into a committed relationship with someone, because they can leave you and break your heart again and do you think we do this thing I'm at on of jest specifically did it, but I kind of feel like, like you said, were just sort of this series of habit and were also the feelings that we're always feeling we're looking for confirmation that those are right or those are correct. So do you think

yes, perhaps, was building an environment in which he was setting for lack of a better word. Setting himself up to get abandoned with rag yeah, I mean these are unconscious mechanisms that derive any addiction yeah whatever it is. It's just as I said it, it's adaptive strategy, it's like being a rat on a wheel, so you know he doesn't really connect with anybody, because it's too painful that that's deep envy the body I mean the deep unconscious in the body. It's in the nervous system, and so that's why, for you to become intimate with someone to start to risk falling in love is gonna. Be challenging and scary because they could put you on a plane. Send you to Sweden metaphorically right yeah, yeah, two terrifying two, maybe stop hooking up and start dating and start

really in earnest declaring that you want to have a love relationship with someone, a committed relationship of some sort and maybe you know I don't know what you want, but let's say You ever want to get married and have a family tat. I desire you, however, that that's just something I'm making up nodes small one, but it's not a big one. I believe in what then was talking ass short term relationships and trembling. I, but I just what I want to just let it happen with whatever ok. To be honest. Well, that's important, I think, to Cosette, leaves you more open but Whatever happens, you have to have a desire for that to happen, which means you can have to cut out the extracurricular extraneous activities as energetically you always have the back door, open the others, as opposed to saying I'm stopping these behave, I could have made a joke there, but they didn't above

I mean it's interesting with this abandonment aliment wash think so many people, even if they dont think there operating out of some level of abandonment. They are because some of these things get passed down like I, don't feel any abandonment at all from my parents right to your size, therefore build together and that I never ever had any fear that they would not be there to pick me up from me. You know I ever had that by my mother had a very real abandonment experience at a young age and I feel that the house has headed trickled down effect or something as well, because I think I also I mean even in life, I mean taken of relationships, although we shouldn't, because I'm sure this

going to be a huge issue. Once I get in one which is, I constantly feel replaceable its appeal. And I ve been in for so long, probably from when I was a kid and I have it in friendships. I have it intensely where I've it in it and it becomes quicksand as we were referring to earlier like it is all consuming. In that. I feel that someone's come in someone shiny new and is here to replace me and that's capable of happening, because I'm replace a ball, and all of that I think, is tied in to abandon men. I do things sometimes I test I too asked people in that way. Like are you going to? Are you going to and then they in some ways do but I'd speak?

I put them in their position. It's not really fair to them, and I have this sense and fear that vat is gonna, be the last huge hurdle for me in serious relationship right, so that is sort of Europe core issue. It sounds like that profound and security how you know on a deep level you're, not enough or not lovable, that year disposable. Actually, I think that's a deep investigation for you to see. Where does that come from? I dont know where it originates, but I do know that at some point at a young age, I became very adaptive and valuable to other people's personalities like I felt that I was good at recognising quickly what they needed and wanted, and I could

that oh wow? What did that to you? Why did you feel like you had to do that? I mean, I think, just to secure the relationships become indispensable, like even in my relationship with Kristen. We ve been living together now, because I have my Caesar the living together for like five weeks, so remission hike in tight quarters and already everyone's emotions- I know in general are high, but we have a new assist and whose wander far and totally special an incredibly helpful, and I love her by. I was feeling a lot of these feelings of feeling replaceable and I mean from an objective standpoint. I know that I am not doing that job anymore, so she's not replacing not even that I

we're like fighting for the Saint there's, none of that, but the fact that she's there and I'm there I'm like evaluating how much attention she's, getting verses me or how much quote: love she's, getting verses me and it just like throws my whole every my homeostasis like completely out of whack and what I was realizing it definitely at the beginning of our age. My relationship with Christian, because I was her assistant, was the nanny and then her step definite the beginning, like I did what I always do, which is I saw. Oh, she needs this. She needs a person to come in and help her with this, and do this I was that and now relationship is changed and morphed and evolved, and I'm not that person for her. The more I think that feels destabilizing a little bit cause. That was my in two feeling greatly needed

so it might be interesting for you. If you have an already to ask her what you mean to her yeah, we ve talked, and she of course was perfect and handled perfectly I mean really helped me see that relationship as permanent or she's trying to let me see there, I was concerned to you believe her. Can you hold onto that? I believe her ninety five, sat, but there is, as I first say it's not because of her that know ye. So when that five percent comes up in relation to the new assistant and Kristen thinking that moment. I have to say to yourself. You know what she loves me and I'm not going anywhere and I'm good enough, and this is what You have to start to affirm yourself and exercise self compassion with yourself, because this where your sense of self seems to slip, it sort of like a sieve were drains out and you're gonna have to shore that up internally, to remind yourself that you,

are lovable and desirable, and you not replaceable. You are not a Dixie CUP here. We have a long term relationship with this woman and her husband and her family yeah you actually mean something to them, and you denigrate that and when you denigrate it, then you will choose guys that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy where they will just kind of use you and get rid of you, because you don't think that much of yourself Yeah, well, you're, so scared and worried that you're gonna be left that that is an abandoned issued by the way it's not the same brand is justice is but still lack of, we can call it that lack of self esteem and a lack of the ability to have a solid sense of yourself. And there has to be a point where we have. We have to do that for ourselves. Write me. We have community, we ever friends, but not always do we have the opportunity to go to the person that you feel that, with an get that validation

now. That's a luxury so yeah so silly is an inside job, exert right, and so you have- to be your best man and woman in the field you ve gotta, be and set notice like her there's that weird little insecure part of me that feels like a girl that nobody wanted to kiss under the bleachers and we d, I'm an adult woman. I have again relationship with this woman. She loves me she cares about me. I'm then asked that voice just to be quiet me alone or just lock it outside head yeah, and what I was really trying to do during that time was every time I would feel the negative. I would try to remind myself of oh. What is what is a thing that has happened today that has confirmed that she does love me not that she doesn't love me right or left. She doesn't care about me instead, all up

something to confirm that she does care about me because those are all over the place to, but my wherein is obviously focusing on the ones that prove that I'm not important anymore. And that's a little obsessive and that ties to the love addiction, fantasy channel. So our interests as your kind in the same department, so you and to be careful about those obsessive kind of looping thoughts, yeah. Oh, I have them all the time those are all in the service of staying out of your feeling, which is like her, I feel vulnerable right now. Maybe I need to go. Ask her for a hug rights yeah. Maybe I need to see I'm feeling a little funky today. Can we have a cup of tea together? Whatever you need to feel connected is more vulnerable again and with lovely about what you're talking about with this relationship. Is that your practising intimacy with hair which kissed translate able to a love relationship, yeah

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dot com, Slash Monica and the discount will be automatically applied at check out. That's article dot com, Slash Monica, get fifty dollars off your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more do it. I know so many people struggle with jealousy in such a huge way in these rules. Ships and I do think all of at the root of all that is, abandonment is feeling replaceable road is all these things right, so setup owing to our partner in saying you know what I feel scared right now that you think someone else's prettier than me or sexier, mere that, maybe you don't love me today. Could you just given a hog and tell me everything's gonna be Ok, they instead get really why. Thirdly jealous and start to do all sorts of crazy, very an attractive things you joy yeah yeah, that's the cycle where you're then perpetuating the

Attracted a great you re all right. You look like a crazy woman in the guys, like you want to be with her she's nuts. When yeah you're just scared, and you can't be vulnerable to talk about it But I will say in that guy, yes, I need that can come across as needy as well, and that's why I always say to go to other people, go to your therapist or go to me or go to someone else cuz. Sometimes it's you're not going to be able to go to the person that is doing this to you to fix it. Well, I too pans because one of the purposes of a love relationship is secure functioning. Our person is the person who can best regulate ass. Obviously, if you're jealous twenty four seven, you got some work to do, but if, on occasion that happens, you should be able to go to your mate and say this is coming up for me and you know this is an issue for me and I just need you and for a moment that doesn't mean that your

simpering and needy, and constantly saying how do I look in my own in NATO annoying, but it is a function of how we can regulate each other, how we can help each other become secure in love relationships. I think that's helpless we talk about this on armchair export alive, the fine line between vulnerability and me DNS is I get scared. Sometimes when we talk about that that or encouraging people to now to be MIDI Road we have needs. We do have me renew right and I think it becomes again if you are dependent on someone else to prop you up, so that you feel good about yourself all the time

That is a problem nurses. You know you're standing on your own two feet. You feel solid internally, but your human being, and sometimes you get scared or you're angry or your heard or you're upset, and you want to go to your partner because your partners, your best friend and there, the person that can most make you feel better yeah, I feel like you should be my matchmaker, like you have some guy you're working with a new. You just happen a schedule at the same time, and I brought him there nl on me, but that's a fan lobby and in one of these issues is that he's embarrassing biggest penises like doing right David Anna see so that their it went yeah relationships with every one, the relationship you have with their parents relationship you have with your friends in Europe

too many partners there's through lines throughout all of them, and it's important to kind of look at those through lines, because it tells you so much about you and not about the other people. I get so easy to say like that person's making me feel like this, that Brazil making me feel like this, as opposed to noting oh, I feel like this a lot. I feel replaceable a lot right, but there is also some truth to some people bring out the best in US and some people bring out the worst in us, and so you wanna be around people, and you want to choose maids that bring out the better part of you. That's why they're corny sayings like this is my better half, because we bring out the best in each other. You know you hear people talk about their mused, the person that inspires them to paint a right or better in the world. That's what we learned this idea. I mean, I guess this all has ended. The abandonment thing, but just

in your actual relationships that you ve had a mean almost in the same way that I do with people to feel close to them, like a just yourself a bit with the crag you, you changed your eating habits when he came in. You changed the channel because you didn't want him to know what you are saying like you try to adapt yourself to them, and I wonder if that's connected the abandonment Yes, you know Gregg was vague in and then I was vague in you know and then Gregg like hiking in there now I like hiking and as I think that there is something that I like learning about these people and TIM. You know, ten was a camper, these two camp and TIM, you know, loved art MIKE so. I learned how to cook. With TIM, like there are certain things that I do about I become, but I really love that I liked being in relationship to not be myself, because I get in trouble with myself. What do you mean

by that when you say you get in trouble with yourself, I act outcomes. GPS. I've doctored, you said. I have a bit of mania somehow an annex of soft drugs and alcohol, and I said and when I find these people. Love me and I love them. I love slowing down- and I love learning from someone else- and I truly thank all of my were term relationships were positive, but the problem with that is that that's a form of borrowed functioning and our having rather down well without its up my term actually at someone else's term, but by doing that, you don't really function on your own. In between these relationships. Your sexually compulsive till you land on someone who sort of saves you and in parliament of the twelve set program, they become your higher power and there is a lack of responsibility in that, for you were you're not really taking dominion

for yourself and saying, while I'm really going to address this compulsively once and for all and actually to go work on a programme or in a sea a program or something and see. If I get what happens if I were to dig into these twelve steps and look out what goes on for me that I cannot regulate myself, that. It's either things are isms or I've got to find a safe harbour of a relationship, because that's a big ask of someone, No, that you're getting into relationship with me and wow Hugh, I'm so relieved, because I feel safe here and I feel more regulated. But that's a lotta responsibility for somebody to take on because in your words, I dont trust myself.

Yes, that's a lot to take in and out of here I haven't heard that before that's very interesting. This idea borrowed functioning because I think when you have relationships where your functioning well in your heart, functioning you can tell yourself. So I do that. I am capable of that because I did it as opposed to looking at the whole picture which may be in these thanks. I don't know also that I rely on my partner. My partner helps me: do certain things as a pole do I need to be in relationship because that keeps me stable? It's got like the guard rails on the bowling alley. They went. Don't have those guardrail on the bowling alley, unrolling gutter balls, all the time yeah. I have problem with her the item,

the blackened rightness other I'm triggered by that because of my family, then I friends and my work and I have such a great community, so I dont want it. I guess come across an unstable in my day. Time why I didn't hear that you're not stable at all sounds like you have done a tremendous amount of work, and that a lot of this is in your rearview mirror, so that you are, more solid and stable, but you want to be careful about some of those kind of anxious, maniacal tendencies and using substances or people. Whether it's a relationship or a hook up. You know to manage that drugs or alcohol. Cheryl of it yeah just say. Also interesting is also most people I know are regulating somehow

and there are these conventional ways that we all know of alcohol drugs sacks love, but I also feel that everyone's doing it to an extent hers you have a stressful week and you have a glass of wine or you have a drink big deal. If you can't sleep in you masturbating, you go to sleep, big deal, it's where it becomes compulsive, when it. I only way that you have to manage something. Then you no longer have a choice is a must and that's really when it tips over into addiction right yeah. That's the distinction I think, is important, because I think people have a hard time recognising the different between when did some must and when it so Choi you're. I want you now

jazz go to an asylum meeting together sounds like a how well, I think I got myself great challenges, I'm all about those meetings, the hard performance, first step that which is to admit that my life is unmanageable. When I I think it is and that's a hard one sure. Well, I think it's problem We become more manageable over time, because a lot of these behaviors starting to age out of some of the behavior is worth highlighting a now you're down to kind of the core of well, Who am I? What do I want? What am I looking for, and I think you know there- something nice about what you're saying about well and is open to short term long term theirs something noncommittal about that, but I want to challenge you about. Ok, because

Long as your noncommittal, you don't really have to say or declare. This is what I'm doing. This is where I'm headed. That's true and I worry about I Y yeah, exactly that's what I worry about for you, because it's too was a fair and away yeah yeah but the reason why I feel that ways, because I don't think you can look for a long term relationship. They think they happen. I think they happen when put to people are on the same page. They have similar goals and they have great communication share. But you have to declare that you one tat. I do want that. Ok, so I think that's helpful to say I want a committed. Ship with someone I do a sable live a life where you can imagine what we can ever imagine again. Try willing to get hurt, building a lifeless,

body which can be really fun and rich and super challenging. Also yeah yeah, it seems like both of you deserve to have that experience yeah. I think so too. I also think there s t r l t our thing is really important to end good and healthy and helpful to remember. But, but I will say yes, I dont think you have that problem, like I dont think you have the problem where when you meet someone your deciding in the first five minutes, whether or not you are gonna marry them. I have that problem. So it's it's helpful to me to hear a long term relationship is just a short term relationship that never ended. That's helpful to me. I I stumble on that, but you don't stumble on that. I think you stumble on the opposite problem. Judges. This is what I am committed to this

what I want. I will be completely honest. I talk about all these four guys that have dump me or these and I've dumped thirty, forty, fifty guy sheriff Reed had never talk about that. So I think I am a little bit of a liar. You know, maybe even that Europe is a lot of people that An interested me that I just end- and I never have Discussions as always is poor me Jas of these four guys in my life at suggested. Distinction that I came up with right now, because I I d say like. Yes, I see the bastion ever Monica. You doubt that was my mind says. And honestly that's a lie because there's plenty of people that have tried to date me that I say: don't you that's where you cut people off and your fear of intimacy and they're, not good enough like you're, always finding some little thing. That's not quite right for you and I, So my distinction right now that I'm coming within the moment was that I am like Monica cause. I was always saying: I'm not like Bonnac, I'm not because I like

everything about, but I like everything but those four guys rights, only four of them, but I have done this dismissive out. I don't like the way they eat. Doesn't of times- and I never talk about it. Well. Sometimes sex addiction can be the flip side of love addiction also because the sex attics are usually love avoidance and the law. Alex in oh, are you know it's not about sex? It's all about the fantasy of the perfect one, so This is where they they dovetail together for sure you know these things become is just await us. A safe and what we know, but it can very lonely and isolated, whether you're not dating at all or you're, having compulsive sex with five people a day. Both of those can be quite lonely. Yeah absolute, that's right. There are similar, I mean, I think one thing which I sure will touch on next week. Is we started this by saying black hole? Paramus of it is just an iron opposites and I think really what we

the main take away as that roared the same, and that so many of us are the same young. It may look, a little different. It may look extremely different, but as soon as you start, peeling away the latter is a little bit like it's just the same stuff yeah for everyone Ok, so we'll need our fight challenge, I got one road sea to start so I think, offered Jes. It would be just no hook up sex for the next six months. Like this I mean I love that challenge, but I feel like I'm its fate. It's not fair because of this, but we're living in. But six months is a long fucking time I'll. Try. But if you we really want to make a commitment to looking at these issues

were to nobody's ever died from not ejaculate for six months. By the way, who will I can't your Gough? Well, what have you six month, celibacy what be like. I got three times a day yet. Well, that's our part of it passivity? I think not its covered there are a jazz he's. Making big eyes are now You tell me what you want me to do and I'll do it. Ok, So why do we do this? Why do we say ninety days of celibacy? No porn? No masturbation, no guys know nothing. For ninety days, it's better than six months, like more headway Now am I loved to Chad and have virtue virtual chat with people rose, you get to know them yeah. Of course, that's what I want you to do. I want you to get your no people. I want you to have conversations with guys. I want you to think about what

like? What don't I like? It would be great for you too. Start to make a list of the qualities that you want in a partner. All the non sexual things that you can do and anything journaling also because you're probably gonna go through some withdraw symptoms by not ejaculating masturbating looking at porn, just just get rid of all of it for ninety days. Oh, my wow. This is amazing, because this is our last. How and so it can be longer term are other ones have had do you know you had to complete within the weak or drugs or something, but this a circus Monica I know I can be made. That is it's ok. I am deeply afraid- and I also do see me getting withdrawals and I will get I was, german a little bit more, and I committed under presented to no poor? and no masturbating for ninety, and

course knows how. I think that'll be lot easier in this in the sand and rationale for ninety day right light: put a filter on your computer to help you not look at the porn and all that and you know, get support, get programme support or people support these f. And Monica. So how often have you been going on dates? Wilson we started this much more her cause, they ve been Bake Dan. Like us. I went on a date this week and that was not a challenge that was extra no you went on to you also know o the walking one was a date right now and it wasn't up Andy. So sharply, not planned dates, which is a blessing great yeah, so I would say for you also in the next ninety days at you, keep up the dating at a good pace, because my concern for you, as you know, with ending than the dating we're just start to fall off yeah.

And so, and you also need to go and repeat dates now you need to go out with the same person more than once. I've done up for with a cup bo peep ball, but now not gone out on more than right. Ok, so You imagine going further with that. Guy and again it's really hard to make physical contact because of the situation we are in, and so I sort of love this Tori invading where yours like six feet apart from its back, but I wonder you know at what point it would be appropriate to start to have some sexy talk with that guy via text They like that. You have an experience of getting closer with. You could be honest with you, and say, look my whole sex life if an dating life is just a big experiment. Right now cause I've never done any of this before, and I don't want you to feel like you're, a science experiment and but little

Q. I enjoy hanging out with you, and so what? If you know, the next thing happens, Ray and check it out with him and see yeah yeah. But I think you should go two new on your you know: sexting expeditions and You're dating expeditions and, and the thing is that you want to start to make contact with the people that you're having dates with so you start to put the intimacy and sexuality together, ok because you don't want to keep them separate. I wouldn't want you to start like sexting wildly with anonymous guys and then You got another problem because you're not actually connecting with anybody. Re right right right that's so well justice in celibacy for ninety days. You should be actively dating sorry. To be sexual with the people that you're dating and water. Form that can take living close

Into having this experience of yourselves all right, there has been a part of me. That's like yeah, have made all these big changes dead men thinking about a month from now wondering like. I, why I wonder how sticky it will be, so this is good for this to be the final challenge, right is it for ninety days or ninety days. I think it's that you have to talk to these guys more. You have to get more involved, you ve cut it. Doing more of what you are doing so in if you're going on a date a week, then you need to continue that for ninety days. And it doesnt matter whether its now the same guy for ninety days. I would be amazing I that you started to have a sexual relationship with that guy for ninety days, whether he's the one or not right secular white sure just put her to hunting, go and see what happens You can have the experience, because sometimes we know we'd it's it's like archer. It's like all of a sudden, there's that saying that what you're looking for is always within a mile of your house. You know

think you're looking for your partner and its like. Oh I've known him for four years or this guy. You know I'm not sure if he's the one, but after thirty sixty ninety days, like wow, I really like him who knew yeah. All right. This is really an amazing journey and you're, so awesome. Thank you so much. I think you better like this was so help and also extraordinarily brave and courageous of both of you and I imagine, a lot of people are getting help listening to you. I hope so. The best compliment I receive is people who who been married for twenty years and then they say I'm still learning so much yeah. That's been really really helpful because again- and I think this is something we are learning in General- about the world right- now is how similar we all are how vulnerable we are. All are how no one gets a free

ride like every one is struggling everyone's doing this thing and trying to be a person and it's a whore, its heart. Be a person rice and even the people whose marriages look perfect or the experts who seem to know everything they know. You know I had a teacher years. Go say to me, you know: is a sex therapists. Never let people think you're having the best sex in the house because you're not right, because your relationships shifts and changes, and it's just realistic to think that so yeah, that is about our common humanity and that's more of what you need to keep embracing Sakhalin horror, Oh thank you doctor out. He rode thank You lie.