Peggy Orenstein is the author of the New York Times bestsellers Girls & Sex, Cinderella Ate My Daughter, Waiting for Daisy and Boys & Sex. Peggy sits down with the Armchair Expert to discuss her research in talking to young boys, why parents need to be open with their kids about sexual realities and the impact of pornography. Dax asks how boys can stand up to injustice without losing their social capital and Peggy talks about the uncoupling of pleasure and sex. The two talk about the double standards that exist in the way we perceive young males and young females, how gay communities navigate sex and the misconceptions boys and girls hold about the opposite gender.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome? Welcome, welcome armchair expert experts on expert, I am Maximus Mouse and I'm joined by minimised. Mouse minimised mass. What are you? Will your manager max Smiles yeah, Maximus measurement. Oh, you are ok, ok, I was their dogs. Were you don't get it? Was you don't get your own twisted or now you'll be ok, so you're gonna Maximus miles I'll go minimised mouse? What is it lay your minimum mouse boys yellow miniature mouse voice. Hey we have an exciting. Yesterday, Peggy Organs dean tribute in writer for the New York Times magazine and afar. Peggy has also written for such publications, as LOS Angeles Times, a wash and impose the it and again the new Yorker and has contributed commentaries too. Damned all things considered. The club journalism, review, Name Peggy, one of its forty women who changed the media business in the past forty years. Her books include than you are, times best sellers, girls and said Cinderella my daughter waiting for days,
and her new book boys and sex young men on hookups love, porn consent and navigating the new masculinity? Please enjoyed this too Fishes conversation with Peggy, we are supported by stamps dot. Com poses rates have gone up again
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you were on travelling to date has as from Berkeley. Well, it wasn't very far farther than most of our guests are coming from also that year, the fight spine. What are we looking for five minutes or something fifty three. I believe. Ok, Are you going to Burbank? I didn't it. Ok, I'm smart that and if you knew that, then it's really is not terribly driving. And why not absorbing takes all of twelve minutes exactly now. Where are you from originally meant? Will you are? We love people for many up we're gonna stereotype right now. We know your crowded, we played brother until he delivered on this year or type Amelia, my keys, the neighbours of ever man. When I see you are and then we went and we did it I've show our summer was and again it was the nicest from everyone. There was just to show any another, showed a nice. It's it's real. What did your mom and dad do? In Minneapolis? My dad was a lawyer and my mom was a teacher and then a state
and what kind of there do you now? I spent many many years sitting at the kitchen table staring at the window listening to that, but I have certainly remedy like intellectual brought laser inadvertency obey. Actually we can actually want a Supreme court case that change bankruptcy LE my daddy, didn't he still peace. Ninety three, no sir, he's still around that in practice. We are well, oh you will. We all went to watch him began, watched him. Why we ve made of eminent. My brothers are also lawyers. Ok, How many brothers have told her brothers? Ok now you have little sister syndrome. Ah, yes, after my levels is yes, I think of my what might my poor sister ever younger sister- and I also have an older brother in the edges, growing open house with two boys and those be The people, your emulating, it's quite at its very specific path- yeah yeah he's got a man than I would say this about. I think when boys have sisters holders
there are other says yes, I agree that different simply ass. I think that that dynamic seems to predictably make the best boys. I really do think it is you're honest. I really did could tell it'll be around female early in your life. You can kick your ass. I think that's probably I don't know, I'm just like a permanent sister related just about like our guys, like their sister right. Well in your new book. You had really kind of. I can't even imagine you expected the level of access or the level of openness that these young men were giving right. Wasn't that income as a shock to you really did I mean I really. I was really hesitant to do. A book on boys had been writing about girls for a long time for twenty five years right. Ten part of my hesitancy was that I basically have I call transcripts of ah. Ah, where did you go to college and what did you major? I went to Oberlin, ok, Ohio area we won't allow. Two major anything practical. Ok, what were you ve changed subtler, but, but I was an english major. Ok,
That's a useful major criticism. It allows us well that day- and I might add that I was trying very very hard to avoid going. You did your father. Won't you to pursue that? Yes, Yes, and I mean I think my parents kind of expected that I would be a lawyers wife. Oh ok, maybe go to law school and catch a lawyer alarmingly. Yet my brother's, my lovely big brothers, who were by that time, both either lawyers, are in law, school sort of ran interference from a kind of picture them like pigs, linebacker thing not, and I think also that I think that I got through on this kind of weird, like sexism worked in my favor and a funny way tell me home, because I think my dad didn't think that I was
Can we really have to make a living awry? Also, expectations were low, yeah, and so they currently EVA. They want really paying attention, but be me no kind of sneaking through in saying I'm gonna, be a writer wasn't as threatening shares. Somebody else would you know the care of me didn't work out that way. Other so you're dead, probably grew up in the thirties. Forties yeah, right, ok, so yeah his paradigm for what a woman was. Obviously, don't say that with any a well at all, oh yeah, yeah yeah, and when I said I'm gonna get on a plane out any art tat. Nobody could be a writer, the basically spots with its that's a pipe dream, and you can't do that. Al Qaeda and I thought oh yeah watch me ah ha ha. I went well now. There's a couple things there, though, to cause Peter has brought me into what the Minnesota culture is in. There is a modest de right there. kind of a celebrated modesty. Arrogance is bad arrogance,
the worse rowers worth so in some weird ways to pursue a dream is audacious, as I'm gonna moved in Europe can be. A writer could be seen as arrogance a little bit right here I mean there's many different layers, the gender layers that are happening, but also the sphere of your time, and I get that now having cat and I'm sure you don T are followed. A creative patty feel kind of like well. That was a lot of luck all ten years a rejections yard is it. Was this weird wish ten years of rejection and try to be very strong, Weldon have a very strong vision, or an easily be incapable of doing anything else. Vs area and or really low self esteem and believe deserve flagellations out there on the model is not, and the modest this fantastic writer and she wrote one of the best books on writing in one of the things that she talks about. Is the radio station chaos today. Ok, fucked, right, one speaker is saying you are the greatest you're the
after the most worthy other thing? Who ever told you you could pick up a pencil? yeah and you gotta, let quiet both of those around when you went there were you aiming to because you ve written for the New York Times for how long ever forever was that? What are your first started when I go to New York? I was here there's like editorial assistance and they give. I was below that stuff which sounds like an infection wide esquire. So the squire I I got a job. It has claimed that a fun place to have started out. Oh yeah yeah is there was sort of a little bit. I wish I had thought to write things down so that I could read my devil, where's product, the bad. So ok! So your first book am I right to assume that you are probably and you written articles, that
problems regarding array of rival. So I was a magazine editor. I worked into four magazines and then I was been worried about writing full time and what that would mean and whether I could live another thing. So then, yet my first book was called school girls. It was about young women, self esteem and education, and I followed two groups of thirteen year old girls through their thirteen theoretical, get that transition to adolescence. So do you approach it like a journalist or scientists were really like a journalist. I mean there's like a couple bucks that I read when I was in my early twenties. One was cut loose change by Sarah Davidson and the group and both of those kind of what they do. Is they like looked at a turning point in history through the lives of individual women, and I just I love that idea. I love this idea that you could liked the story of an era through anybody really. I think our stories and that's been kind of the driving thing for me as a journalist. Is that like how to individual stories connect out
there there's a neat, sane and serene writing witches, every single seen should encapsulate in a way the entire storytelling like it should be a fractal in that sense that, like every single sliver of it, should be the if the thing in its entirety and that's kind of what you're saying as well. I am what did you find that was like shocking. What was the tasty thing that you were bringing the light without book? I really think that that was your settings going. I'm thinking about things like there was nineteen. Eighty four nineteen, eighty four about like I was looking at the way that the media was affecting girls body image that I was taken like that have a chapter in that book. That's called schoolgirls and slots. That was about sort of the perception of what it meant to be slutty, and we in the way that girls desire was surprised and what that whole peace said. I think, later years, users years later was kind of the seeds of
frozen sex, which is your bid that your most popular book yeah, I think so he adds a New York Times by seller. Is nice and sex embarrass you didn't know where the other day, oh wonderful, somber, seven on the list of its grey ass, the fuels wonderful! Now he s it out. You guess that I feel like. I was starting the conversation with myself and maybe with readers looking at the way in which I sat in a lot super classes for that, but how did you get permission to be at a school as an adult so for that book cash it was really want. Hunger, as I feel like I approached principles and unprincipled, would go through sort of a process with pity
and the school board and in the parents ultimately would have ultimately would have to send permission slips. Wanta get said I, but I also always change people's names rife. I didn't use the name of the district in vitro districts. I was an uncertain in I offer some protection because their kids and that would be wrong and when one of the things about the way that I work and with all while most my books Manon, but with that one and with girls and boys this x, is that I'm not looking in framing and particular necessarily. I just want to see what life is like in this kind of world than I'm looking at. So I just go and hang around here. I can't now what's gonna happen rye, so you know whether it was like in that book that there was a sexual harassment case that suddenly burst forward or like in boys insects. One of my very varied scenes in the book is when
talking to this boy am skyping with this boy, whose a senior incurred by them and when I met him, he called himself a feminist fuck boy break break. I don't like I'd like you to know that. Meanwhile I didn't weirdly. Now we were on a family, vacation and dumb family members. Your teenagers, one of the girls, told one of the boys that do you know that, but they call you in school. They call you five point. He was so upset by the sweetest boy ever and I thought what can that when I was growing up. I graduated ninety, three so someone coming if I'd buy, that would have been like a sign of glorious. I can only imagine, but what what is it? What it meant was that he said with a lot of
by more rules and he said count I'll cut, but that he had this kind of veneer of a kind of an end. I think he he is he's has serve egalitarian perspective, but he so he like would teach consent workshops, and he was very scrupulous about all that, but that didn't mean that he didn't take advantage. of what was like a super skewed ratio of girls to boys on his campers, him manipulate that men treat partners is disposable, their respect, this kind of jerking a son. Well yeah, and he was trying to recognize that when he, when we met, he was like wrestling with what that meant, and you know how he felt about that and he was like it felt really good, but maybe it doesn't feel so good Ah, yes, I personally have this history, where I was by all accounts, horrendously honest with people like us, Albert relationship reminders Mouser, like I'm, in a ship. I love my girlfriend. If you want to do something,
Physical. That's all that you want the I'm up for that, but you know I just want to be dead, clear right and I had this whole thing in now, obviously in retrospect people greater things baby. Don't really agree to rush is an unfortunate right depending on the position. I can his campus in other girls if they said no to that they were going to have the social life, was the truth. So if I had talked to him a couple years before we met, he would have said exactly that. This is a good, I'm really clear everybody's on that side he was not gonna going, and so we were having this discussion. and it had been like she had been doing that for years now he was inaugurated on one thing: he eyesight gaps. So the thing really, I can recognize leaders, regardless of the permission and regardless of the understanding that everyone agreed to I was using them to regulate my feelings, I'm an approval junkie and I'm using them to get approval and feel good about myself for a while. So even if that side of the street really is
but listen. They agreed in writing bob. Ah, I know that ultimately unjust using someone to regulate myself steam, which isn't I'm not crazy, proud of Sir Dax we're just like this. I'm gonna ominous fat boy. Ok, I know it all Now, remember you hosting I consent workshops or anything the one that you know that I worry if he were that is today, I'm sure yeah. So anyway, he I was talking to him and by now in or was it a year has gone by since we first man he had a girlfriend. He was like re evaluating auto stuff, and while we were talking this other boy, texted me name and Nate had had like a bad history with the cops and he was somebody who really prized connection and relationships and he was down in southern California and he was looking at schools that had been accepted two for college and he
where's your deputy up with hookup culture like an orgy down here. Do I just got a bone town and worry. It gives you a hundred if they were blunt with me about town and worry about it later in and have an emotional connection laid waste skip that part? What do I do the, and so I read this text to Wyatt who have escaped with and they ended up having this whole conversation through me. Oh, why about authenticity and about waste then, who you are- and it was like this amazing moment which, like this was taken me way back onto our efforts, tell which is that I can never anticipate what's gonna happen when I just hang out these guys and I just ended up feeling like you know they had this conversation, I mean I'm a stranger to them. Really, there's they ve never met. There know each other's names and re. What would have you know? It's like what would happen if guys could really have this conversation. only with in their real life's, not with some. Like total stranger, our look here, I think you're so much I mean there's a million different bad angry
ants in the stool, but one of em, that's so powerful as yet. The boys really don't feel comfortable talking other boys about anything really that could be vulnerable or show any lack of total conviction on every single I beg which was totally at the heart of the others. At the end, this boy no need the guy was taken as like. Thank you so much. That's just what I needed to hear and any sent me a little heart Now I immediately think of white the murky newness of your role in You start by hoping to learn from them what their culture is around this topic and how they are acting and whatnot. But of course you develop early shops as happens, and then they're asking you advice, so he was in southern California and ass. You like what should I do
Don't tell me about that aspect of it. What's the wine you walk into changing as it can be justly it's not mostly, I feel like what they would talk about after our interviews was that it felt sort of cathartic or therapeutic where they had never had a chance to talk about Saxon, intimacy and masculinity engendered an Amazon these things in in to anybody. You know a lot of time since he had never told anybody there, sir, you know what the fuck I'm just gonna say. There is seen as an exact meant that they were gonna, disclosing something they did, that they felt bout abashed are in or whatever, but I felt like boys never have that permission to have this conversations, and so what I was kind of giving them if my role is to give them anything at all was is protected space yeah they could talk about their interior lives in a way that they never get to such a kind of like by bearing witness to that yeah. Well, one of the point you make early on in your book, maybe even in the introduction, is that what you need.
by doing girls and sexes that parents are not talking to their kids about sex or they are not at all and then there are even talking last two boys cause are less concerned in general about it. Is that fair to say that they had been, but I think things have changed all evening: you use either things are changing because well because their worried their worried that if their boys are gonna cross lines and given some kind of your soul into trouble so generously ass. The asset girls just used to see as the price of admission and not act on beer. Luckily, we now do the out, but that means that boys have to be more mindful and more educated and actually see their partners as people the arm. So what boys would say that they tend to hear was don't get a girl pregnant, you don't get a disease and respect women and that last one like encompass like all this stuff right- and I would say like I do not want- I said to me- that's like telling your son not to run over any
old Ladys and handing him the car keys. I mean you, don't think you're gonna run over any little Ladys, but you don't know how to drive the right. I said you were respect, is a very well yeah, yeah, opaque kind of the factors that me exactly and also What did the uranium? Really? We paradigm when you're that age, which is your parents, are telling you the truth when you're dead, aware of it right, like no they're, not telling you the truth. And so than your only other source, is your peers in their piecing together. So your kind of trying to pick whose I can certainly your parents have earned your trust in that moment, so you're, probably more likely to believe whatever your buddies are, who everyone already lags, whatever he's doing must be the right thing to do, because our I right you don't just kind of ends up being really basic
calculations, you re doing that aren't pride but less Lydia, plus now kids have the sack in a gigantic media that we didn't have right. I mean if it wasn't like that now I hadn't deal a play boy from my grandpa hide the area under the bird and not even the porn, but like all of us, in the coming at you had so big yeah that in all out of concern that I kind of like you know, we need us we'll conversations with boys and here with their thinking and no what's going on with them, because we have the luxury of not taking any more yes, so I think that in general and again I this will be self serving as I'm a boy but just general marching orders of the last three years in the wake of me to just being like men, you better! Well, ok, it's a lot more com. Located them like a war in the middle of a working machine that women are part of men, are part of parents are burnt, there's no one is just individually on their own, not in acting or not being affected- and you know right so it's so complex.
Could ever see his statement like girls, we better or boys, be better. It's like hey society. We gotta be better like a boast side. This whole thing is gotta of all right. Absolutely and that's. Why I like to me this during the books together, cousins and supplies, insects the out like to just make others dynamics visible. Now, what were the girls against? So just in my own, having not written a book about it, but just being now father of all starting a recognise, some of these things have grown up with one of the one thing that I tend to really stressed out about. Is this crazy? pressure that's put on young girls about their virginity, You have to make sure this guy is a good guy, that he loves you that its special and knows putting anything on the boy shoulders it just like you it? fourteen or sixteen or seventeen media? led to assess whose a good man who loves you in order to do
this thing and by God of turns out. He wasn't that them the shame that accompanies it, just a halt. The whole responsibilities on on the young girls shoulders, which I find to be just wholly unequal, and I guess I would even stepped back further and say how do we define sack
without oral sex sites like? Why are we not? Could there be multiple virginity ease instead of just this one thing and right I mean a lot of what I talked about. Girls and sex was the ways that girls learn to disconnect from their bodies and that the ways in arctic disconnect from desire and pleasure. I called the american psychological glitter adapter me, ok, the clear right so like when girls are born. We get a born when babies are born. We tend to name all of boys body parts so like what, if say like, there's your p b or something right and with girls Rico right from naval the needs, and we dont like we leave this whole situation in between totally unnamed, ah ha, and then they go into like. Maybe they get older, they go into puberty education classes, they learn that boys have erections and wet dreams, and girls have periods and unwanted pregnancies. Re run out the same year that, like that internal diagram of the second
most matters on the jailer resist painting on in the area and an grace out between legs right, so you never say Volga, never, secularists, menorah, Madura! Exactly no surprise. Most girls have in a fourteen to seventeen years old, have never masturbated. Even once really the majority and then my we're always trying to figure this out. By the way we were gonna conversation we're like what percentage to youth Erasmus boys have tat blank and ass it. Forty percent or sixty percent. Is that the majority You can share a short. You know well me later an argument about average, because it's in my boots, like not at the top my happens right, but it's a lot is most right, and so then they go to the partnered interactions right and we somehow expect that they're gonna know what they want. Their content
oh, what they need open. Another limits even knew all about how to communicate their some guy and is trying to like one who knows what he's doing exactly so he's like set them up, and then, on top of that, we make this really big deal of this. One act like its line in the sand: yeah right, yeah, that's even inactive, certainly for sums, gonna feel that got the most girls right. So, like the whole thing use it away from girls, pleasures of their pleasure, of their bodies of their desires and having an experience is really like in that body. Acted. So even beyond what you were started with a thing you ve got to find the right guy and stuff the whole premises wrong in a way right. Yeah? Well, by the way? The reward for finding the right guy is not that you enjoy it or have an orgasm are fine, joy and intimacy. Is that you won't? Have the shaman regret very won't, be made a fool of and made to be a slut
in all these other pejorative, as it is true that most young people want to explore sexuality and trusting relationship, but you know we just act like doing it. This one thing, one time suddenly gonna make you experienced recently make you know something that you don't know, and we all know, that's a lie. If, if you make out what somebody is fifteen years old, you make out with somebody for three hours and you're experimenting with like sensuality in communication and you're gonna learn a heck of a lot more than if you get drunk at a party and some of the random the punch, your visa card, you know no you're right the much bigger source of that feeling of intimacy in love. connection is actually in a rota system. Yeah sensuality, right, yeah, ok, so with girls. There's that issued there's. Also, these
the options on the table right, which is either approved or your slot, great those, both of which are negative. What you know what's the right number? How do you hear? How do you, like one girl, said to me usually the opposite of a negative as a positive, but when you're talking about girls, insects, there's two negative. So where do you go on that Sure out where you are now. Also personally, I was super sexual really young ourselves molested when I was younger. So it's hard for me to iron out what I think a humans is natural disposition is too that I certainly desired it greatly. I don't know how much I can speak to you like your average boy, but I definitely do remember having many friends who I was shocked to learn.
Didn't want to have sex. So I was subscribing to this sort of type as well that like boys, you want to have sex and then occasionally I would have a friend that would be like you. I'm scared to do that, and I was like. Oh, I was unexpected mad yeah. I mean that's in one of the things that I talk. A lot about with boys is that stared have to throw it down to fuck. You know they aren't necessarily aha, there's that pressure that you're supposed to be that way as a guide in the hallway you get status, that's a big way to get status, hooking up with as many girls as possible, with as little feeling as possible in training apprentices, disposable and guys had related to that not one to different ways. I mean I was seeing that one day he said, he'd had a bunch of hookups in college that included in reports, and he said it's it's weird, because it's like there's not a lot. I
on tax rates. Let a conversation, Rhine and secure, acting vulnerable without being vulnerable. Aha yeah, yeah yeah yeah physical steps of honor Billy, but there is really no notional lily and notes that the whole vulnerability issue is really interests you in big time. Sometimes after you write a book, you don't realize what it's about till after writer and they start talking about it, and I really said really at the heart of this book, and you see the word vulnerable. Second neon sign throughout the book. Is that issue of guys wrestling with the taboo against vulnerability, whether it set their rejecting entered a nine in embracing under capitulating through it? It's all of it. What do you think about the masculine itself or all the different ways that I talk about the relationships? Saxon yeah, it's always dancing around,
It's always trying to reckon with that, and the wall in other they ve put up between themselves that vulnerable self in the world yet, and I was really acutely interested in how things have changed. Since I was that age when I was read your book in what I saw, which was completely consistent, is still the worst thing you can be is a girl in any capacity so being vulnerable as being girly or you know, but not wanting to fuck would be girly leasing. Adele giving me a man, of course, is to be a fag right and so on. This curious, if that was still the thing, and it is still thing, but then I was really interested to hear that they are very explicit about the fact that they dont mean gay right. They still save fag encourage other flags, but there is one of the clear we're not talking up saying that about it. I was right. I mean this: will it that there are a lot of differences with boys? I mean they have female friends. They see. Girls is totally does giving up their places in the classroom, and you know on the playing field and leadership in a professional and all that is there.
Who never. I was started when we were taking earlier about girls on the contradiction in that I was always interest in these contradictions between the new and the old. I think this was going on with guys to where I get this sort of inflection pointing the way with boys. Were we maybe we're with girls twenty five years ago, and so that stuff? You know what I would say. What's the ideal guy, they would still be saying. Yeah Let us assume dominance, aggression, sexual conquest, emotional support them set out what it is all that I was not sure about the Arabic about India is legally yes, I payments still still the absolutely love. You know what I would say that, even though there wasn't a silly there were also some think about. What's a small percentage of the high school population that applies to what percentage of people are athletes or actively involved
You know it less than ten percent eve. You ve got an ideal that less than ten percent of the people are gonna achieve it. Just a kind of a bad recipe right are. The game is now right back to the ear to the five thing they didn't mean to them necessary. There were questions humbly sexual orientation right they and their sales have. I would never say that I've got friends. I would never so that your papers may think that makes it ok, I think so, but what it was about. Monsieur right and there's the sword, fag is the antithesis of masculine away and it can be, and it's like slot the idea you can mean anything can be applied to anything. I can hear it so it's like it creates like when they talk about the man Box or the mask you live in or whatever you want to call it that The lines stay to arm chair if you dare,
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Now I am always trying to stay paleo in numerous, been a big big help and that, because new is a habit, changing solution that helps users learned to develop a new relationship with food through personalized courses on whom is not a diet. No food is good or bad or off limits, noon, teaches moderation and can be used in conjunction with many Bree existing popular diets. If you want, you, don't have to change it all. In one day, small steps make big progress, sign up for your trial today at noon, and oh, oh, am dotcom, Slash Dax. What do you have to lose visit? Numa? calm slice? Dax start your trial today, that's in oh, am dotcom. Slashed acts, Caesar. Pascal who, who writes about this, is a sociologist and organ. Did this whole thing where she looked at a thousand tweets with hush tat, no homo omega. Yes, by the way we ve talked about the sun here before I've received many of them like it's, a guy, will want to tell me he liked me in a movie and that's just way to vote.
So they had no homo, that's exactly what since you said what you see when you look at them all, is that it's used as a shield They can express normal emotions of affection or connection, and the now homo allows them to do that by using this kind of homophobic slurs, slash job in the process. I'm forty five I was just in the hospital with my friend my friend, was receiving is back in Michigan resource. Even these books, full tax from his friends. You know he's a roofer he's manual labor. His friends are also in these. These texts. Dude scared me so much so glad you're. So from the hospital you immense great into some kind of homophobic epitaph like same thing as normal, like oh that was hard. I just said I was worried about you, I'm glad you're safe and I got a throw some other did this kind of negate the whole thing great and I pointed out to in he is like owing it's so truly just went through all of them or every a hundred per cent
I'm had some kind of disclaimer. It exists with in the game. Community, as well as we have a very, very good friend Jas, whose gay and were doing the separate ten episode podcast together, about relationships, and he talks about being gay and within those relationships femininity, is also devalued. Are you exactly so? It is a hard thing to combat, because it's everywhere, even coming from the source, slang yeah women can true men that went off. There's research that says that women's day they want them to be but when they are not so happy about it last seen us yet uncharted Lillian collude as well like, I think, I'm only get away with it cause. I'm also like embarrassingly committed all these hyper human things. Like off road in fighting all these things were thy that bought me enough
leeway to also be very voter Paul, even I have to I feel, like there's some weird balancing act in my life for its like oil, get away with all that I can wear ponytail. I can do this because I'm doing that, so I so someone could just blanket. We call me back and that's your version of now homer either I have the same thing can emulate genuinely like those things. But yes, yes, it is now. Ok, there's a call for parents to talk about sex in what specifically do you think parents should be saying about sex with this book with poisonous accepted something different with my books at her have tended to always like take the,
Peter into some situation puzzled when you're a writer. The first thing you learn is showing not tell bridegroom, so I was I well. I have to give an example of what this looks like and a classroom or a prison and profoundly, and I kept trying with poisons ethic, trying like to go to different programmes are going to classrooms and if I just getting this right, this is right and I think it was because I've been writing about. And sexuality. For nine years now- and I felt like I have things to say, and so in the last chapter of this book- not exactly script but a little bit of a template for the kinds of conversations that we have a lot of conversations and it's about sex, but it's not about sex
Conversations has been about sex, but not about search sure enough, largely neither Diana. Do you read me yeah. It's about all these different things, and it's like you can't just its. We have this idea that it's the talk but like if you set your daughter's down and said all right girls, I must say about table manners now. You're gonna use your fork and cut nicely with your right hand, with your knife and you're gonna say please pass and thank you very much, and may I please books you from the table. Ok, go forth now, you know table manners that would be absurd rain, and this like at least as important as tabled now. I would underline the arm right, so I talk about a lot of different kinds of conversations that we need to have particular boys in his book and also the role of adult man, mother, it's your father or you're cool uncle or whatever the guys in your life young, and I think it's really hard because adoption,
but racist way right more ways to have these conversations, the more the man we also know exactly what the outcome would have been had. We behaved in a way that maybe we're gonna now urge our boys to base our. So I just tell you the deep fear I would have. I would have the fear of like ok, I saw other mass. You live, and I now know what I know. I can't not incorporate this yet
So as my child gonna be the sacrificial lamb is going to be my boy who is vulnerable and open and cries in public and then all the boys kick his ass in his life's fuckin miserable, because I gave him permission to do that. That's the fear is that all of us, guy, I told them, get it. I would refer learnt a couple different as one is resilience is what you're, after here, not in other guy who's, gonna burst into tears and public kind of thing like what does it mean to his razor resilient person bristling with, but also because every about girls for all these years? If I had been here twenty five years ago, telling you about my first book, I ve been talking about school girls in the ways that we have to ensure that girls tend to like pull back when their teenagers and start saying what they know it
volunteering and class and stop stepping up and that we really need to change that that that's hurting argument, like I'm semi aware of that concept, but I doubt everyone is. But girls did that right because at some point guys don't like smart girl well put at an available as a whole. It was again it was like it's not an easy thing dislike. It is a dynamic that we were given them profoundly mixed messages about how they should behave as women and what they were able to do and what was okay and you know that you were supposed to leave simultaneously stand up and say
you're mine, a giant bright, but as a girl you're supposed to be deferential, and please everybody. Yes, it was. It was this contradiction that girls were living within. Two degrees still do, but I think we ve done a lot better at broadening ideas of what it means to be a girl. I mean even like you know when I started doing this billet people like while girls are just innately bad at math. I mean they're. Just are you know? We don't say that anymore. So when I was doing that work, I would call on talk about it and in people could be like area, and then parents say, but I think about raising my own daughter differently to be like us. Girl, more assertive girl, and I worry that she's gonna be sacrificial lamp right, he's gonna get called a bit, you know no lies are, and unlike her and girls are gonna like should be long and shall be lonely and I'm worried about what it would mean to do that so again, and I feel like that's where we are a little bit with boys them. We have to start taking these risks and recognising so that they be better partners or be less likely to
an assault or be better in bad or whatever. It is better because those qualities that they keep, citing as being in its ideal guy qualities, are really harmful to them. You know I mean they are linked to all these behaviors like being violent. Having violence committed against you binge drinking risky sexual behaviour, car accidents himself harm depression, loneliness, you know they're not doing boys any favours. We are once again how I go like. Oh, I could raise my boy to be this, but really are any the girls gonna like him like this is I say it's like such a unity Yang scenario.
It's like the whole systems, gotta be changing simultaneously and we have done so much changing in a certain way with girls. You know, like I feel, like we ve done. A lot run. Media literacy, with, like I think, when you seeing again right now and in media, shows like sex, education and big mouth that actually acknowledge the existence of female pleasure or any right of different things. Girls and leadership. That's been a huge change. Girls on the playing field, Normous change when we ve made a kind of changes, but we haven't proposed under the conversation. In the same way, we wonder you pointed out, which was really fascinating. That I haven't even thought of is that if you were a young woman for the lass, I'm forty years now there was a movement called feminism where you could get interested in this movement in you could start being a part of the conversation of what it means to be fattening or a woman or a feminist. So they were kind. Move actively encouraged to define what it is and presumably guide where they want it to be
but there's never been a movement for men, not in the same way I mean, I think feminism is like that for men, but you know like, I think, for everybody there's only one like we're the guy's resorting to go. Like oh yeah I role to roll to. I don't be a fifties house father. You know. I don't need that. Guy cut emotionally ignore. I met with your children, you in your relationships. We want to be able to yeah, but there's no man. I mean that movement in I'm saying others know, but it is funny because just inherently because feminism has found man in it that men feel a little like squeeze. and about attaching themselves to that, even if they are totally feminists, which just means equality right that that I d that I'm a feminist they, I think, there's a beer. Means their feminine and they don't want that associate
I only mean that feminism minutes, its most literal term, means like me, names of women in raising equality for women, don't ever man conventionally well raising female equality to meet men have already equal right, and so, if you look at like way jeez or title attain man or any of these things yes manner. Just crushing, why would be needed to read is there any ones level, but were also complete Lee bereft in all the emotional experiences in life that are, as em fourteen, if not more than being a sea of something. So it's like there's a whole pocket of life that we don't have. rate, access to in our society, which we should want access
that we should have talks about how we get that. Well again, we were framed it sort of said that when women are seeking that public power, that's aspirational right, that's like reaching up, maybe man want access to that to raise their key elements. Emotional, think that feels like weakness or stepping down and said. That's that dynamic great their yeah makes a really difficult yeah, but that we have to question out another aspect. As we talk about affairs and cheating, what I have noticed that my experience in it lots of different friends who have dealt with this is if a woman cheats on a man and that man confronts her about it. About ninety percent of the time within the first three questions will be: how big is this deck and did you come That is the man's greatest fear. Is that someone outperformed there
another man who did it better than them who had a bigger dick into me, just very eye opening of what our fears are well and also misconception, exact heartily, because that's like that goes back to what the guys that those boys that I would try to head like such misconception of what its sexual says actual was, and they were not unlike enough to put an end to hook up. They were pretty interesting female orgasm I mean that was not given a hot. So when I was writing, but the girls that was like a big thing than eight that we would discuss was the sort of disinterest in female orgasm, but when I was really surprised with the guys in the hook up culture was that they were interested in female satisfaction.
But they didn't measure at the same. Why did they think that, as long as they were last seen allow lying along the yardsticks? Yes, it wasn't about. The sex was about the story that you go back and tell your friends and they wanted to make sure that the story the girls can tell her friends was one about stamina and size. Absolutely one way said like I started glancing at the clock before start intercourse. I'd know that lasted a respectable amount of time. Right, not first pleasure exactly, but so she would tell her French wasn't disappointed yes, anything, I did you try and sex and the kind of what he said I enjoyed it, but it also turned it kind of into a task where I wasn't, play in the moment the most known go two scenarios I think of baseball. Why is that something? Every guy knows on planet earth? right: baseball during sex. Europe's ain't like there's, no one, you could see think of baseball team who doesn't know that concept is right now, which is tells you that,
every males dealing with some fear that they're gonna orgasm too soon, and that They believe staying in the saddle. A really long time is the recipe for satisfaction, which is not the case, and I guarantee you presented any guy with a rumour surrounding him could be you have a human. his dignity last forever verses its eyes penis in new company quickly, but you gave the girl twelve organs I was in your great at oral. No one picking up, even though everyone, every woman would, by the way, it's a two way street you have the same stuff. This is like no one's unique in this, so this is an argument we that yes all of us guys think Dick sizes, everything because each other does its guys, we that were the only ones perpetuating map? It's all our fault likewise other women. There saying I have to be so thin because of men. It's like no, we don't lie
get supermodel magazines. We actually dont know about fashion models. We dont were in the dark about that. That's not what we like, yet you guys. If convince yourself, that's what we like I think it's on both sides. I don't look so I dont know I gotta mediate here. He happily Maya. I I mean yes, I think women place a lot of judgment on other women and bodies and all that's up. That's real, but men are involved in that there is a body type in society that it seems that men prefer at different times that changes also also we I'm just gonna tell you that, in the same way that women don't prefer muslim men, but all of us men of convince ourselves that all women want to mostly man more delusional, there's no autonomously man. We don't on a skinny wavy girl. Do we do I can tell you of all my friends. We don't want that, and yet we really believe we want that, and it doesn't matter. Humming
I say that me and all my group of friends looking. I also notice that shook his. I know one of your friends who does so it's it is just person deeper. Look, everyone probably has their own preference for their own thing, that view across the board, but there is some societal on both. Then Why would we be susceptible to this narrative that were self prepared? waiting in the women would not be susceptible to a self reproach, wouldn't even probably are well with the dick size. It that's a different thing than body types. I think the women do feed into a male body type, and I don't think I'm that's not my preferred body type at the women are a part of that conference A some women like muscular got exactly, but it is not right to say that all.
Unlike muscular guys it in your right to say men all once eighty pounds runway. My right, I think all is probably that the part of the sentence sets a problem, but at argue its equal on both sides. I think we're both delusional about what the other wants. Yes, but what I was I was seeing is annoying as you are giving two options. One of the options had the woman being satisfied and the other one didn't in your opinion. Most guys would pick the one where the women wasn't satisfied that I find annoying, but of a horse, is it's annoying by means that has nothing to do with the way. We are honest in that they think that's what a woman wants. So where do you feel that their getting from each other? Cuz, the guys in the locker room going, I fucked her for an hour and everyone else is like
I come in a minute, so I can't do that. So that must be the goal, is it seems hard and unobtainable most goals are so that lot I mean the lack of conversation case that was sent my left until a lot with noise. And what did you hear well enough? There's a lot of bonding straight guys through the control of women's bodies like that, I'm doing and what they are in any way never talk about like I was that we had this really incredibly sensual experience at the moment. Like that bang they pound they hammering now they tap that they hit that they pay. You know it's like they were in the construction site. It's not like. They had an intimate experience, but the thing was that I felt like the boys. They weren't like these blanks slates, on which the culture would
scribe that they were just going yeah yeah, that's right! That's all! I feel you know they were like struggling with that stuff yeah. So they would. You know I have a lot of guys still like writing to be seen. What do we do about the locker room? Talking it really offends me. I mean I, I I really don't like hearing the guy's talking like that in one of the guys I talk to, he tried to go up against it right in a friend and they got Martin, you know immediately shot shut down and the next time it happened, one of them, the guy that I was talking to said that he decided not to say anything and his friend kept saying stuff. He says he I just watched him. He lost all his social capital of man. I just had buckets of it, but I wasn't spending it and he was like. I knew he was gonna actually going to the military, and he said I don't know what it was to do and I don't have to choose between my dignity in these
I'm going to serve with. But how do I make it? So I don't have to choose, and there was a SEC whole thing. Michael Thompson does psychologist, talked about this silence in which boys become men, and so so much of it to me was not only about this. You know, that's like your big dick, since, after also about all the things that boys learn, they can't say won't, say don't say and how that is what creates that kind of rigid masculinity to work or creative place where you Yeah because I would say just in general, if some boy in that circle offers up something vulnerable, even if the others can relate, they ve never been given the tools to now how deal with what was just revealed analysis, six people feeling awkward. No one has the tools in them maybe the whole ten minutes, which is a bummer for everyone, We decided to be honest in our brave man here
one you, as you say, sometimes the person them that man's picking between success career wise, like in the military, if he chooses to do that, then he's not gonna, be one of the guys in these will not gonna she'll impact on his lawyer or yes, I am too like attacked from a year later. We had a whole new conversation about so like how was I going for you what's happening? Would soon he had he. He was too. It was just fairy as he predicted he was really struggling with it, and he was hoping that you know he be able to lead by example at some point, but really a lot of what he was doing was being quiet. Yeah, that's hard, I'm acting. I totally understand how hard that is an as I ve been going around in a talking. Different cities with boys in sex have had guys got like a together their division. One athlete came up to me and said what what what
do tell me what to do. Tell me what to say I'm in a book citing line not so much, but in a week or respond it after the yacht gave. What am I do you? Well, it's not easy right. I mean ideally there's a coach that you can talk to that, can bring in programming or there's a program called coaching boys and men for high school middle school boys. That is fantastic, and I really like super light. Intervention coaches having one ten or fifteen minutes conversation a week with guys of unease, certain topics and they ve been there. It's been shown to really make a difference to reduce violence and increase bystander intervention, reduce them.
Language and all that stuff, so coaches can make a huge difference if you ve got a coach, but sometimes coaches are part of the problem. The idea so then, are their guys on your team, who are on your team in who, maybe you can listen to. I give some resources to them about ways you might be able to take aside. Somebody who is doing so stock and just say your piece neutrally Non Ignatyevna Lunch other ban voluntary, may I just say it like yeah. Maybe so you don't want you to get your tampon or don't be a pussy wherever they say about you. Just like you know, he's you say what you say and you do it you invest in or maybe you can't- and you think
working with younger guys, herself and being a means ample than in doing that sort of mentoring, then has no tolerance for that offer some other way or supports the guys that you were but didn't finds. Supporting being now I mean there's it there's no magic bullet here, but I feel like theirs alone, I had a codes which he has given us in your being vulnerable than I do. You can't heart, but I am at the beginning, you got that like that guy mode, mainly the underlying till I did not, but I called switched because
canadian abiding by the idea to asking the think the there's one peace that was written after this book him out in men's health, aha by the sky breadwinners, he was summoned. He said that he felt that he saw himself reflected in some of the meat you stuff his behaviour his past
Oh, I'm not accused button lackey, recognize you know and his like okay. So how am I gonna do this differently with my kid yeah, he like took seriously the stuff in the book and really grappled with an went like had these conversations with his son. I felt like I was watching you know watching it in action. It was really really cool, but but it was struggling with. How do you have these conversations with boys and support them in you know, making that kind of change or just thinking about their dynamics of women or any of this stuff? The vulnerabilities, like guys, vulnerability, especially when their drunk moms you over, perceiving ass. You know to sing anything that a girl does
ourselves. Any factor friendliness it's on right now, where are you tat it s about two boys about that? You will that's my big so so the thing I said on here before is I agree wholeheartedly with the direction is going. I think, God it's going the directions going again. I have two daughters. Thank God, it's going, the direction is going with that said, I think the entire traditional role of a man pursues a woman and she's got the brake pet on he's got the gas, but that too has to change Yom, because people have to hook up. People need to follow. have sex. So yes, we're going to teach the guy. As we should put the brakes on, but we also have to tell girls like you be a sort of you- and I am saying
you pursue you norms, ain't like I do. I had this whole thought about that recently because I was talking about our girls school and this dad raised his hand and said you know I just I'm really troubled by the way we ve been talking about consent like it's something that boys are getting from girls and that is still not in a given girls. The agency right right. I was right in this book and I was writing about this whole thing about gay guys and how their better at negotiating consent and like navigating consent, demonstrate people and how the because they're gonna have to learn This is not like earlier. What's gonna happen with warm or how that will, there's more defined rules, yeah reminded that they have to have a discussion.
yeah. I was only doing what that's what I'm saying like you're talking about or whenever you're or whatever you going to do and in Sudan, Savage so Dan said to me at the beginning again, Conor with you guys it they'll say the format of words. What are you into men at that moment? You will anything in and anything out everything on the table and you have this discussion and it's like the kind of open at a question you wish people would ask in a sector like all people ask, but I started thinking about it. After as I care that's really great, and I wrote about that. I said that this would be ideal, then, after that more recent minting but dance gay near sex with men. If you had heterosexual young people and in a guy s question the answer in this respect to these like hidden at the the girls answer might be, I have no earthly idea right so right and where do we go from there? Yet, how do we get from there to people being men and women
a young man in young women, in particular, starting their sexual experiences? Being able to ask that question and answer that for real, we each other, because that's what we're gonna be where we need to be with stuff entirely, and I e I just worry that the I just worry whose instigating in your right near the concepts, never even considered whether the guy gave consent of everyone's I've. Never read one line of writing about a guy giving easy my book can area I and another, far ahead, so there's a whole chapter that is about the issue of poison, unwanted sex, which includes molestation for sure sure, but also accepts that you could stop. I bet you continue with awe and also thinks that reach the level of assault on in terms of both men, men and also
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Columbia University did a two year, like multi million dollar study on sex and sexual assault on campus and found that one in three girls was sexually assaulted, but so were one in eight guys and that much of the time the perpetrator and sit in a lot of it was groping or in a wasn't, like necessarily being forced to penetrate our involving being penetrated yeah. But in cases where it was penetration. A lot of it was women. who, either through incapacitation or nagging in electing I, you know, what are you gay right right right were hushed guys to have sex that they didn't want or had sex with them when they were incapacitating, didn't know they're having sex, and I have an eye frame match up with this boy, in a way I I'm just gonna have to imagine also it's more than one in eight, because what did it such an emasculating
right would mean exactly. There are differences to justify his research. Looked at men and unwanted section young women on want sex. The range was much bigger, obviously, of of the kinds of things that girls experience and there was they felt physically threatened sure the women right yeah of Korea and the men did not tend to, and it was a threat of physical violence or force that tended to really resulting trauma in and that loss of control. But guy sometimes did feel that in some of the guys that I've talked to not you know not a huge number love them would say. I don't know what I call that I mean if the situation were reversed, you caught assault, but I don't know what I call it when it happens in. I don't really know what to do that, but some of them, especially if it was the first time having intercourse and they had wanted to be somebody significant none they had been drunk
and erections do not equal consent mom, they were pretty devastated in the way that girls, what have been devastated net, took me a number of times, hearing that from boys, Jack Team, believing I believe at younger than a guy. Just we're gonna go well, that's why
like I can't imagine what was it for some of them. It really spiral them downwards and with more shame, because we're gonna tell my roof wondered, I am in his experience had not been quite is true, but he he had had at first time. That was not a great and he said you know it felt that, but then felt that I feel kind of traumatized by a man is about. One must muster. Tell my friends, you can say that to a guy like it's gotta, be it's even it's gotta be great. It's great charge right little visa yap, no baby! So there's no room, and you know I mean if you can say no, it's better. That thing that raising earlier, like there's always been down to fuck. If you can say no, you don't have sexual agency manned and that's enough
like that this offers enough right, but I also don't know how you can hear somebody else's now, if you're not allowed to say it to me right now, but in another was a subset of as to who had who had been molested, sometimes by other boys or other men, and sometimes by adult women, and that hope he's too. I mean the whole point fantasy of the mill fray. Only I knew I witness it myself, at least once a year, a story breaks where a seventeen year old boys having sex, with whose thirty Earl teacher or unlike good for that dude I would love to have had sex with a couple. My teachers and then I hear the reverse: the rural dude having sex with a seventeen year old student, unlike that guy's a fuckin prouder and she s protection. I might well I can at Lexington successor, obviously, Concerning that. That's my reaction, but that is my true reaction and you know that may be an inappropriate
but where are the imo era, but I'm just telling me on his thought is like I don't feel bad for that seventeen, your boy at all, so life you were fourteen, take what is your line then, fourteen days he fifteen feels less, I see I really when I was fifteen hours like six three and I would love to have done. That's all I'm sick and all unlocked. Might I perspectives yeah, I mean I've I've tattoo guise of all ages. I have I have a friend who is in his fifties, whose early first experience was. He may be his retainers. Sixteen with a friend of his moms, ah he looks back on that really unhappy Ah ha really. Unhappily yes, but then it gets into the particulars right. Where was she manipulating ham? Was you know better, so many ways taking advantage if it's a fourteen, fifty it always asked Arusha it just as at present does not have the
frontal lobe cognition to make a real decision. In that way, there is down yeah, I mean if you use the example of like ok when I was fifteen, I was in love with me more. this probably honour of our fifteen she's pride, twenty five or something yeah, the I'm no victim. In that scenario, you guys here you are. You have sex with you. Yes, you are not not tell me why I'm allowed whether I was in love with fifty. rolls when I will mean a hand, but if he had actually had sex with me. I mean sure, maybe in the moment I would have liked gases everything ever wanted. I'm getting taken advantage of, even though you pursued him
sure sure Nora. You should read the book on three women do not ever know. It's really good, but one of the stories in it is about a seventeen year old girl who did you have a relationship with her high school teacher right whose thirty and then, but it's not until she's, a bit older till she second or toys that she can the wherewithal to see what that power differential wasn't hard use of? That was absolutely, but also at into that equation. I think that it was this action in that, I'm certain she thought she was gonna, have a life with that person or relationship will be she'd, but she was. She thought. I think that often people when there in that kind of dynamic that they feel special they feel chose sure there, often Iceland they become isolated from their friends, because there in other more supposedly grown up never heard of minorities that sort of happened yet the dynamic that can happen with either girls or boy you can
but I would argue, though, that quite often the young female really believe she's gonna be in a relationship with that man, because she doesn't know any better and that's why we have to not have that. Let that happen. That's right. I'm making a case that for any one to do ass, I'm only seen the and is consciously manipulating, because he is not looking for a relationship with a seventeen year old. So there's section right out of the gates, there's it's a bad intention like coming trick this person a thing and were in relationship so that I can get sex out of it so that now it is quite often at a seventy or boy just wants to have sex with the twenty five year old woman so whereby both people are trying to get the same thing in getting. It does feel different to me. Not ok, just I think the fact that their
deception involved in one heightens at around, like I can tell you that in our eyes, certainly had boys. You talk to me who were being sexually preyed upon by adult women by teachers and other people who believe that very thing did believe that they can have a life that those people are dead, believe in what they were manipulated there. I groomed they were preyed upon in exactly the same way that girls are our tendency as a society is to not see that in says there are various yes and and they very well. You can be, of course, your honor. I know it's wrong from his exploring out loud. I know what's wrong that I dont care that this boy did this gap in soul. Why you? What is it
case some building, for why don't think it's the same or with the with the full admission? That's not right at by any stretch. I don't think it's healthy for any thirty year old woman to be wanting sexual. Seventy, your boy factors all kinds of put things probably going out with her, and then you can ask the same question like what. If it were a man, therefore thirty or thirty old man in a six year old boy, would you see that I worked as I do. I do like so it's it's an interesting, because I have a lotta gave friends who have been introduced to the gay life style and educated by someone older than them. That have had a great experience now listen to that store and I go wow. If that's between a man and a woman to me, it's very predatorial and wrong, and then the way you're describing this thing is much.
Different, so I do think there to be more in I'm enough talk today about the site. To also can be a problem can be abusive can be manipulated. I had a lot of guys of of gay boys that I talk to who, especially now because you ve got grinder, lie about their age right and go on to grinder NBA hooking up anonymously with much older men, which you know, and I would say to them or if you were girl. I think that was really in. I would have a report you and they would say yeah. It's not great. They didn't feel great about that, but they didn't feel that there were other options and sort of to the way that we ve suppressed people being able to express their sexuality is kind of forced to dynamic. Maybe, and maybe if we could provide more situations, more social situation right rewards acres where they could have age appropriate experience. You and you know, have social experiences and have
romantic experience and have sexual experiences in the ways that other teens are allowed to mom in that's what we should be thinking about the air yeah that if that was on solid footing, maybe the other thing one exists yeah whenever anyone at one of the things that I wrote a lot about was that, like with with gave way, I mean obviously a new time right am I obviously things have changed enormously for them and they know they can come out of fifteen and there's like a game. I running for president naughty sense, but it was like all on the social front like it was more like you know you could be the gave us friendly to be the theatre boy, but nobody was still talking in them about what a mutually gratifying and personally fulfilling sexual experience or relationship would be like for them. The and heterosexual parents, in particular credit in one
about the whole sex peace. So they were enough. You're not taking your straight kit about sex reassures another. Can you get about sexual sure, and I really probably also that really did DR them more into this world, where they were kind of looking for a mentor looking for a minute or air or looking at porn as a template and that's an ideal? That's not what we want for any young person, yeah now again, more anecdotal information for you, I'm in a heroic people share, I noticed about five years ago or the younger guys ever different relationship or sexually than I had grown up or least different parameters. I'm noticing this, like fluidity, with the guys that certainly didn't exist when I was twenty, two years old, just wondering how that's evolve now? Is your writing? Your book d notice
Is it still all the same or is it there is substantial difference in what's on the table, for everyone gets a kind of yes, and now I may seem to me et Cetera. Fluidity was more acceptable for the girls. Girls were more likely to identify as bisexual pan sexual harm to be interested in going out with transport or trans girls and boys still felt pretty deep box. so a little bit, but I think that it moved a lot less, ok, possessor I saw you in one impact. Is that have been on the conventional definitions of masculinity in the rules of ruins? Plain enough, I did look at Trans boys to agree not near not like hugely bad debts. Definitely part of a book, and it was a mean they're. Not is one guy said were not so
like angels from having to change your masculinity? That's really exists, and some of them just wanted to be the most conventional of guys, but sometimes they pushed guy other guys to not like question. You know whether they were really man or anything like that, but to sort of broadening ideas like what does it actually mean to be male? What does it actually mean to be a man? What does it actually mean to engage in these things and that guy in particular, would talk about? He said a lot it has like. Well, you know: that's not my masculinity or either like you, ve talked about it like this dynamic thing. He was building your hand I, but that is so interesting. I never heard any other guy. I never heard like a in order would now demonstrates this guy right. Well, that's not my masculinity and I thought what an interesting way of looking at their was looking at. Macedonia's something that you're like creating kind of making this
about, and this is my masculinity, but that over there that's not offended a fascinating. I just wonder if now that there are there's more acceptance of gay men in there as you say, the holding office, in student council in there. You know not running, for president running for president and not relegated to the fringes of school that is somehow encouraging going like way. If that's the worst, they I can be in everyone likes this guy. Like can I move closer today. The enormous aim, because I'm gonna be my hope that happening in some community set in a new conventional penis token guy was friends with us in a strict. I we had, they would have gave rents, didn't have transparency no, but our her. There was like, I think.
It was a water in their had a little bit like this many trans and gave friends, but you have Germany them like in own studies, estimate than they may be start will be. People are questioning these others like weird, was it you could slice it, but I did see that the item you know some fraternity goes on. I talk to you. They had one one guy who was like in a big ten school really MID was dude. They had a transparent in their frat, o Nokia review, and that had really. He said the first ever is I'm not so sure about this, but that over time they were accepting and that that had broaden their idea of what masculinity was there. It is kind of a good effective again like us.
transparency, not really my job right right right. Nor is it now hubbub pornography. So how can we gotta yeah when we talk about? Why us idiot guys have this notion of like big dick in last a long time it, because that's what you're seen an import now right, do not see the guys, like literally stimulating the girls he's having sex with ninety nine percent of the time in a porno. Yet if that's a never been more accessible, ever re history of the world growth and if that's the only version of sex in ratifying the default sex educator. Yes, now that's a huge problem. There's there's a lot of racial politics at play out important, whether its black eyes penises, are black women not being present or only a certain kind of like bodies are how asian women are depicted. I mean off his optimism, race, Stephan Porn, and I would ask weighs about that other technical.
deal with the racism yeah and they go. What what reason like these are guys? Who would see racism like in their normal lives? Of course they would. They were very aware Robin. It was like they left. That's that there's like you, leave so much at the door when you start looking through the port of videos that that is just one more thing, even at the door, but it's another thing: that's affecting you you're, just not acknowledging that it's there. my wife and I worry Mozilla, the John Crack, our above it. One of the cases was this inner to again blackout drunk people. This guy starts, you know, digitally The penetrating this girl in she's, like kind of coming in and now and then she said stop, and he says no, I'm gonna make you score in this boy's a virgin. He doesn't know he thinks his job in a sexual experiences that make someone squirt. That's
he's been led to believe is the norm or the high water mark of proficiency in bed gathered, and that's why I now and as that is why we can't we gotta talk to you. Now boy did to ignore what boys are absorbing and girls took a grocer getting closer and more like a manual for white guys want right, but if word noise like because it's really different and you have to admit, I was I to frame the spacing curiosity about sexes normal. Ah, you know: masturbation yea, yeah, now goodwill, everybody and in others all kinds of different porn and a lot of some people consider some from point a feminist corner, ethical porn equip or whatever. It is a lot of us behind a pay. Well, that's all behind a day what what you're gonna be able, what changed was borne up right right. I hope came online and two thousand seven and drop the pay while further the most mainstream kind of Hark report,
but it also curious how they're making money to be honest, I don't another how they do not have a small but but That's really no that's what changed, and that was what allowed any kid with a smartphone to look at anything yes right to get a master class in male fantasy right. That kind of easy access point is reinforced and say that sex is something we can do to women. Tat. No pleasure is a performance you regard and they have nine orgasm guy, just instil daddy, where are kind of distortions and kids are looking and boys in particular, look at it in from the time they're. Both your puberty and start masturbating, that's other right. You know I had one go who said to me that there was a boy on his sports team who was a legend because he decided he wasn't these porn anymore and they really
Well what do you do? A higher said. I use my imagination there like work. A lot of things, but I mean you know, that's that's what it's right there. Of course it so easy yeah right now transform, but it is exactly fast food and it ended does even when they say it doesn't gazelle say I know the dunes from reality fantasy, but how would they know that make? What is their contents? What have they actually Debian kissed anybody near enough. So, of course meet the whole point of media anything media is that it affects our thoughts and feelings and beliefs even warmly. Thank it doesn't so. I just wondered like this will be a provocative thought, but I dont see us getting rid of form of new. I don't think that's in our future. So to me, then it goes well then counter programme, so more female direction is written inspired fantasy, of zags, their account arriving exists, is behind a paper.
we're gonna get out of here I go out. I mean that's, that's fair trade round, so that's probably not going to happen, but I think that we do have to talk about pornography. We have here about pornography with boys and girls, girls, what you do and what it is and what it isn't much real. What's not real. What's missing it's no different than the superhero movie they go see its is its as much in abstraction of a male fantasy. This then completely male constructed male fantasy of what a mail would do in bed. In the same way, you know it you always have to ask us like. So why does that fantasy? Keep getting more and more aggressive the,
these guys, who are consuming a ton of pornography and they're, not getting any real life. Sex are getting more and more frustrated and aggravated in their getting more massaging the sick and their more pissed at women. Now they want to see the guy's punish these women of their EU norms, and I have to believe that's part of the cycle. That's but there's also there is so annoying to ask. Is this woman who writes about the science of desire a harsher has become as you are, which is why my very fair books she talks about how, when something is simultaneously sexual and taboo, it creates this response like if I so I said to you: ok, Dax, dont, think about it.
their stop thinking about that. But I do not think about the polar but like now you're thinking about a polar migrated where everyone about on its hind legs right, yeah, so because embedded in that dont think about this is think about this, so embedded in, like dont think about sex. When this really offensive thing is happening or ones really disturbing things happening, it's really taboo things happening is think about sex when those things are happening, and it can make something. That's like that. You find objectionable even more like turbocharging arousal, here more than something that you don't find objectionable, and I think it's really actually that's one of the things that I say in the book that boys that we need to talk to us about some of these, like physiology ideas, because a lot of that was really want. Taught me about porn. That was a big one, and part of it was because he had a lot of confusion around at or a lot of anxiety around at her. Like Libya was zero, most common question. They were well in our being aroused by things that upset them, or
like they were like joining. He bore gang choking or gagging are things that involved shit or various in I'll call. I mean there's a lot out. Their charges is like gang banks would have you know or whether what they watch, how much was normal, but then we can take place related to differently. They didn't all related, say Miami. Some of the militant kind of like I really felt like it was messing with my head. One guy said he was sitting in class in high school and was like looking over this girl and he started imagining. What you look like with come on her face. Are obvious at that? Was it like that, even when it right none not like what would it be like to kiss? Certainly what would children commoner? Yes, that is over the line. I don't want that in my. I dont want this image of the thoughts in my head. I think about it like with jumpsuits like the first time- and I have had this but the first time I saw some during a jump, see I thought recently. I thought oh
that is another second audiences, Amerika jumpsuit you're learning about the third emulate. I gotta get me a jumpsuit it. It just gets in your hands in those days there were guys who said it doesn't affect made ass, just like sneezing, but you know, we know that, even when you think it doesnt media affects you, and then there was some guys who really felt like whether it was I dont. I can't say whether it was true or not, but they felt harmed by their point consumption and they never told another adult that they wanted to talk to me specifically, do you look? I was watching porn and when I was new to masturbating I felt so guilty. We weren't even a religious house. I was constantly trying to quit that activity. I thought it was abhorrent of me and showed a total lack of control and I was regularly trying to monitor that in an icon it. So I can only imagine if I had on top of that objectively, some narrowly images on time with this already,
behavior I'm for whatever reason shameful of in an that's in their yeah. That's it after my Jordan be asked to shame boys when, when talking about it for a sure, bridle right arm into recognised, like I said, sex curiosities, normal masturbation is more here and to just kind of think about some of the stuff like if you know called, has watch porn or less satisfied with their sex slaves on, but their performance and other partners bodies as an interesting thing to know Jack, I sure yeah the thing that one guy said to me that really affected me was saying about any of that. He just said you know, I feel like pornography for this generation. It's it's affected our ability to be innocent and sexual relationship, interest explore sacks without preconceived ideas. He said: that's just been fucked by porn for us. Will you gotta start knowing every single, conceivable thing that could happen, yeah right
you ve seen every send you to reassure him, and yet you know not me. Yes, yes, yes, and yet you know nothing and we don't I mean I don't know, I don't know what the ultimate impact is of all of that, but I know that it's a huge change and I dont think that weaken, raise kids in a culture of explicit media and not even porn but like regular media too, has gotten much more explicit and pretend like we don't have to talk to them about it, or I mean that's another thing with girls like we have in all these years that have been running my girls, we ve recognised, I'm sure. As apparent you recognise that the media images out there can be harmful to girls right. You know, then right they can reduce them.
their body, there objectified them. You know whatever it's bad for the mental health. All these, since we know so we ve done a much better job of like shrinking and with them about rating like this, like media literacy, hinders organizations and there's like psychologists and advocates an activist and parents in areas like all careful unconscious here about how we raise our girls in this media culture, but boys are in the same stew right, be ended Am I can't circles like most allay? Parents are hyper aware of not creating potential of food
when the snapping auditors, Maria, but no one's thinking about that further boys at all running across any lemme neurons. Worried all know. That's my that's my point so that we know how to do this. We ve done it with girls. We know how to create media literacy and least I mean it's not perfect, and it doesn't always, but we try. We try to give them because we can make the media go where we try to give them a lens. We try to give them a critique nobody's doing that with boys. Nobody strengthen boys and, if you like, that, something that isn't even about like in a single word, clearest your son, which maybe you'd rather put yourself in the eye with a fork, do but you know you can like start pointing out. I mean I remember when my daughter was really little she sixteen, but when she was like you know, when she was not only would watch, whatever animated films, and I just go like hey honey in a look. The dockworkers eyes are bigger than arrests. Moonrise bigger than yours is your head bigger than your ways like. Where does she keep her uterus? Is it in her purse late? What has gone on his sharp reno? I and I know
if so that right, right, yeah, yeah yeah, we say to workers like we're ready. Now we came under fire about this we were no way saying that you shouldn't reads knowing the seven doors we love it. We still read it, but we're always. I kind of weird the stranger came and kisses woman who is dead in a kind of bizarre without even asking these days you re going to use a negative feelings again he's not ass permission. A fright does nothing to observe the devil gonna where parliament or have, but those are like those little weird I mean those since with your daughter's. You learn how to like throwing me another time, but you it's because, like you think, ok, the cultures gonna try to brainwash your daughter right now, you're gonna get in their first near you, gotta get it so that she here's your voice whenever she sees that snow white story saying well, that's weird is an intellectual one or two here that the, but we haven't really thought about, like
How are boys neither from us to yeah? Well, I'm mom, I'm just delighted that you farm export. This topic, it seems still in its infancy, were talking about what we needed to yeah. I get bored That's your decided me. That's why I think that with a meteor thing like on one hand, its created this imperative to redo sexual violence super important, but it's also created this really positive, an exciting opportunity to engage boys and all these conversations about sex and intimacy and gender dynamics and masculinity in ways that we never have, and that is like a tremendously exciting possibility to me. Dear you're, right, I don't, I can't imagine, there's on household were this topic doesn't come up, comes up in mind all the time.
It's in the news all the time in it's one of the only happy accidents of the whole thing is like it is starting a conversation, that's long overdue right, and that does him by the way where only be negative, but can also be about the pause. Writing pottery. How can people get their yeah? Well. Thank you. Thank you. So much for flying down. Yeah, I'm about a third of the way through the book, and I absolutely love it. It's just I like it as much as on them ass. You live in its really great. Also like how I'm frank it is. Thank you yeah I appreciate the rank. Other taught me how I go you're talking to them. Nothin's gonna sugar coated, it's like now! This is a glimpse. This is what it is for. The eighty percent is great. Thank you come back. I will and now my favorite part of the show the fact check, with my soul, made Monica Batman Peggy Peggy Variant, lightning. I liked her a lot. She was very interesting
we understood to be sure you now, as we do. Ok so Peggy, I emailed her because she left and open ended question about masturbation. What does a question that we ve been ask each other for a long time to girls maelstrom as much as boys or at all or whatever? and she had said. Girls do much much much less and then she responded and sad fact checking. Yes, I was right according the largest study ever conducted on american sexual practices, which came out in two thousand twelve, I think fewer than half of girls fourteen to seventeen had ever masturbated how full of girls fourteen the servant, fewer than half had ever met,
surveyed. She said it's been a while, since I cited that's, why suddenly thought dang? Could that be true? It seems like it couldn't be, but here the citations, national survey of sexual health and behaviour, more than three quarters of boys are aged. Fourteen to seventeen say they ve masturbated and less than half of girls have interesting so not mummy when double bo right now not like astronomical now, but it is only right away. Let me tell you something: one hundred percent of boys masturbate between fourteen Santa Anna, and I imagine that girls to aren't saying that I would imagine there's even more pressure on girls. Do not say here. That is true, Erin yeah, what kind of Paul it with this? the meaning of payment. Like a fourteen year, old girl should direct Jack's off who's asking that question about a third of girls in every age group, masturbate regularly of third them every age. How concur mass regularly
while the percentage of boys rises steadily with time. All that makes sense because they're getting my sex from their wife. If this is just boy, would be my girl. I don't know that for sure they probably just get more comfortable and start talking about it with friends and like that, she'll love, a shame pretty open about jerking off here from a young age. There's like appear there's a couple years where your first doing it were when talking about it and then all of a sudden Rwanda sounds it an issue like this getting involved. No more alike gum. Comparing like airline going like miracle your finger in your book why you're jerking saying like what kind of wars weird things done stories Asmara swap in war stories, trying to pick up tips yeah raining out there. That can increase this idea. Well, I'm glad really that you guys are talking about something that is really
I cannot really imagine what it would have been like two been twelve and thirteen with pornography at the ready in now I was like looking out I'm bra ads and like a normal magazine musingly, yeah you know I had a really you are probably better off with a probably my imaginations, much better and had early will have an effect on like a whole generation of imagination year, because I had of eye fell on a lot of Why, when just a big ears, big full size like seers catalogue, underwear, wasn't even skimpy Latin occasionally fallen off once in a while. You you did you hit the jackpot in there be like a Victoria's secret thing, I ain't around us and you could really get in sync. Your teeth into that. Did you ever Megan a Victoria's secret. Unlike look at the Taiwanese. Never how many men in there and I'm always like us-
in theory, thereby further lover ass. What they why? I think that I'm not sure it's true thereby vying for themselves. I think so. Ok percentage of high schoolers, who our athletes estimate is at fifty five point five percent of all high school students. I sport that's way more than I would again me tell me too, but it also says that sports programmes continue grow. The rate has slowed over the past decade. Sports participation has increased by roughly a hundred thousand students per year. The forty thousand increase over the past year is this. Alison's, the late nineteen eighties. Well,
so I'm doing a decline in football participation in white community because of see tee, yeah yeah Madame trouble, namely its not having an impact on the minority groups that the numbers are the same, if not increased, failing those those holes, interesting, yeah, well, talents had trig has that's like one of the things that I think, like dangled over communities that dont have poorer community of leg. You sports to get that we are getting scholarships, yeah you, they didn't term delineate weather at the lower socio economic whites. Were right, and this was a big number four whites, but I have to mention the poor white kids are still doing. I bet it's the same thing about it. Is that the, but is it just a class thing near? Ok, how does porn had make money?
so adds, arise, a huge one adds theirs of, I guess a premium membership sure and then some one said: production companies pay to feature videos. Sudan was mild porn stars. That was my question. A monk of user porn hubs making money, because I, like you too, I've got out too, but the produce pornography. Unless he porn hub is sharing that ever add revenue with the people who post the cliff I can't imagine they are, but maybe I see I was more confused that used to be they made a porno and then they sold the diva be right, and so they made money. They must some money from putting it on their. I think, though, like when I was googling at their worst up. They came up saying for canteens in your neighborhood. Yes, as are handled for there was a lot of popped up it and want to see, but it said
a lot of how to make money on porn, but I then click back that it. No that's where we were talking about. But yes, I guess there's ways young just shocked that there is still much production, because here, Now, the movie industry that the revenue was cut in half with the end of dvd sales, basically right and they cause. some back with the streaming services and in international ground. But overall that was just a big chunk that was lost, and that was the entire model for pornography near early on another there at any amc. Cineplex is maybe maybe they'll circle back around their hope. So that's all. That's all you know it's interesting, I'm in general, like philosophy, one or one. You always debate pornography like in the debate, bullshit, you debate pornography. Almost everything I have always been propane ivy. I think it's liberty in art and more who's going to decide what sport ironing who's, not yeah, yet the poor,
that is the most popular is. Is I find disturbing yeah I find it to be very like violent. and aggressive and naughty marine. What real sexes law? That's the big problem, like I don't think, there's I mean yeah. We could debate whether porn. be allowed or not. That seems like a different debate than just. Is it healthy, nah. It's not good for these young brains to be exposed to this non reality of Saxo. These, like Joost up fuckin, meet heads pounding so maybe pound your old near picture of official, maybe poem girl so aggressively that was a rough well and even Peggy says something. I thought was so interesting that the girls watcher two of Mars, but she said girl. Mainly watch it almost as like a playbook like this is how I should.
Two during sex. I should make these sounds of. I should do this, which is why I believe that you right there probably a lot of good. saying larger right. I also think in the like Doktor Alex way. Like you don't know, it turns me why I think a lot of women watch it for stimulation too. So I think it's a little. I guess I always I always bristle little bit when there's some implication that women can don't do anything on their own accord. That it would just be to please a man I'd feel a little dismissive of like women's agency I don't even know if it's just a please them man? It's it's like this is my role in sex. Ah, this is what it's a postal look like. This is what I face looks like when you're in that has like. I don't think it's about pleasing a guy Just like you. I guess this is what is supposed to be wrong. It's the same thing. Is there that's happening with the boys of, like my guess, is what it's supposed to be big decks and laughing a long time and others of that? None of that necessary.
A true normal for normal at all. But I feel a girls even just from seeing movies take away. an idea should look like, and that's not so certainly true, You ve never even never watch porn ivory right. We watched it once in college. Like a bunch of us watched watch the landlord. I know as a joke, but I've never watched it seriously. Now arrived, you can't imagine a beam sexy now oh yeah- I have enjoyed it at times, but again it's one of the there's a few anomalies in my kind of a Dick if personnel make me with one is, I can gamble normally. Does I don't get weird gear and then also pornography voice, but I can't take it or leave it yeah. Well, are you out of your imagination as you, Sir Razor sharp? I knew very
Well, the air! Now one year masturbating, your fantasizing, do you does the fantasy have to be plausible, For me, it has to be incredibly plausible. Some people can like jerk off till, like movie stars I can't do that. You're, like centerfold. You can It does not have to be possible, and it's not even like it's not even like a fool like that way. Think poor and the whole a plot happening with poor and I'm just that so yeah on issues, but take me out it's funny and stoop area on the greatest writing but it's merger snake flashes of images, you're mine! Is it's almost hard for me. It has to be so realistic that I get really bogged down in the deed, how he applies really fast yes Khazar are all. I owe you that girls, heart blah blah blah and this could open and then I'm like.
Oh and then you know, then she's gonna tell a bunch of people and on their own, lose my life and then I just I Israel Raphia of yes, then you gonna get in southern like will go through the sum greatest heads were real fear now get that's nice, but I do wish. I could just like see picture of a gallon? Really imagine the whole thing, and although in like a meet this person, that's Obama fro complicated this all Cobb will happily masturbating thanks for a lesson in the programme. And If you masturbate listening, listen programme, that's fine with us. Our work programme, starvation Peggy is very pro masturbation. She said so and you think anyone ass racism in its programme of God. I hope so what say I'm dolphin. The word asparagus so low
If you listen to the zoologist Papa said often, asparagus at all mean that yeah In fact, I was there. I was if you ve ever had sexual fantasies about it. All right, you didn't want and you just right dolphin asparagus and we got a police fifteen dolphin asparagus. I have to imagine fourteen and half of those were joking, yes, but I like to believe that point five of those was sincerely attracted her mandate. This yellow shells gone downhill, love you earlier!