« Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard

Rajiv Shah

Rajiv Shah is the President of the Rockefeller Foundation. He is a former American government official, physician and health economist who served as the 16th Administrator of the United States Agency for International Development from 2010–2015 under President Obama. He also held many leadership positions at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Raj chats with the Armchair Expert about the economics of the healthcare system, leading the U.S response to the Ebola outbreak in West Africa and the Rockefeller Foundation's commitment to expand Covid-19 testing. Dax asks what he learned from Bill and Melinda Gates and Raj talks about having to address the crisis in Haiti only 6 days into the job. They two talk about America's interest in expanding American values around the globe, vaccinations and the importance of agriculture in humanitarian efforts.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome. Welcome, welcome an arm chair expert on Dan Shepherd joined by Maximus miles them. How are you crazy? How are you doing wonderful were back in the attic back home from citizens their feels good. Today, we have a very very very Smart one and one of these people were Monica our talking to and is getting more and more depressed, the more learn about their life and accomplishments and he's done so much too much too much too much more of these more is too much more than Roger Shaw? Russia is the president of the Rockefeller foundation. He is a former american government official position and health care miss who served as the sixteenth administrator of the United States Agency for international development from two thousand tended to those fifteen under Obama. Ay. I wanted my colleague I infer Michigan yeah, you love there. I do love that anyone from the mountain so please enjoy the fascinating, Raj Shaw.
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He website for full details, important safety information. Remember that's for hymns dot com, slashed acts he's right, First of all, we are so sorry for me late because, as I research you, you have like forty three jobs I don't even like I read the committee's you, seven, unlike how does a man have this many titles and still function so, in addition to being well first on health and economics and all that stuff? You probably need to write a book on time. Manage thought about. That does not mean away, but it is nice to meet. You could say. I know we're both actually from around Detroit, which- oh yeah girl you
so. Your parents emigrated in the sixties, Dan Arbours at cracked yeah, the late sixties, actually first to pass a dna in California and my dad worked on the APOLLO projects after daddy when went to Detroit, and so I was born in an hour and we grew up around the trade and Canton. Unless and until I was sure I mean I wasn't born yet was me- I think those hospital Nan Arbour, so my mother ran a mandatory school in an hour and then later in Lisbon, failed in my dad worked for the whole time. I was growing up and spend thirty years it forward, and then you know forehead and spin out called Vista on, and he was with Still, oh, no kidding so a I use a cruiser nice one Plymouth either partake in that we would go down too. Was it over on Woodward, with large eight nine mile, ok, we did
I've show last summer at the fox, and I showed Monica what happens on would word with all the muscle cards for everyone. We just sat down. I've never seen anything like that. I took my wife. There like long after we were together and she was like this is the strangest thing I've ever seen is aware. These guys had nowhere. We just right- that's where the loss of- and it took me, while the figure out that she didn't think it was just I was like I'm understand why you don't think this is also because we do not suffer year after year after year grown up yassin- oh my god sitting on this, and so many people sitting on this side of the street just watching cars dry by it, so specific to that culture, like no other city, has that my high school offered pre engineering, automotive drafting from seventh grade on
and I thought that was totally like. I did occur to me- that every kid in Amerika wasn't doing pre engineering drafting. Oh my god, you learn, then, when you go and what school did you go to? Birmingham groves, Highschool, all right, right, right, right, I gotta go to school on had already so digress kind of poor other than my mother built this company that worked for General motors and it became kind of big in them. Little sister went to clamber so she's a risky laughed at his fancy school re focus. Will you into you event was that an obvious choice yeah pretty much wanted to go to Michigan and ended up their started actually in engineering thought I would be in the auto industry, because you know that's what you did he die and early. I sort of change to go to the liberal arts college and broaden my interest and took on other things
hey. I started out that way, but your first agree is a bachelor of science, but in economics, yes, yup Michigan had a phenomenal economics department and there is a professor names soul highlands who sort of famously applied keynesian economics and could explain how to help the country both avoid recessions and pull out of reach allowed of periods of unemployment and downturns- and I just thought it was like magical- are You know it's like knowing all this stuff that explains how the world works and really, one professor got me so hooked on economics that I just thought I wanted to do that. I also wanted to be a doctor, and so I can ended up doing both for a little while about really quick you're right. There is this. Like that, the invisible hand, the Adam Smith invisible hand theirs, the magical about it right at non measurable force, that's clearly operating working and we can see the outcome, but the thing itself is not tangible. It's getting fascinating, Jane
fascinating, and I also thought it was a way to explain oh, why some countries were really wealthy and why so many other countries were not, and my parents came from India and the late sixties, which was not at all one of those successful economic environment. An immense or even though my grandfather was an accountant, and you know they had a decent education by our standards when we visited them. When we were kids, we were like, while they are poor bright and they have all the attributes of living like that and so when I really started to learn economics- and I thought this is a discipline that can explain the differences and then maybe you can figure out how to make a difference in in the trajectory of really developing countries as they try to move billions of people out of poverty through economic that was really exciting to me. Ok, so you you leave you them, and then you go to PAN Monica bought on the fuck. Are we
like fancy school, you haven't picked up on that, so you're gonna get a lot of weaving prayed, a charmer unifies, so your ears reads like a penthouse form, were horny heard anyone read my bio and compare it to a passport, In writing thing you go to pan and you get a masters of science in health economics. So really quickly. Just can you give us a broad stroke of health economics, it's basically the economics of health care and the thank you. And I was in medical school and I was also at the business school simultaneously in and in business It, sir, wanted to learn about how the health system worked, and, No, I was at the time it was just after the Big Clinton push on healthcare reform in America. And so that was in the news alive and that kind of shaped, my interest in saying you know we should be able to figure this out. If we,
all this money, and I thought if I was going to be a doctor, if I knew some about economics in that industry will be able to- perhaps you know, have more influence than help more people than just your individual patience. But do you know of private best thing for me about being a pen? Was they really encourage deeded kind of explore different interests, which is not true in every medical school training programmes. So I I applied, you know three times to join our wars. Presidential campaign got rejected all three times and then, finally, when he moved his campaign from DC to Nashville. I was invited to come down and just work as a volunteer and that really more than anything changed my career. Yes, its work as you have you have like political interests. You I mean it's, not where's, very cool, your appalling Matthew, you!
all these different interests and in what I like about it. As you end up. Ultimately, why we're talking days you you kind of get to synthesize all these different things, but just really quick that the health care system? It is uniquely complex right because it has all these layers of multiple businesses on top of ultimately right treating people for illness. There's all these other factors, these intermediaries, the that the insurance providers hospital network there are more complicated system out. There are so many factors involved right yeah I mean no, there really isn't much. We spend in America more than four trillion dollars a year on our health care system, and we have time at best, a middle ranking amongst industrial countries, unpopular health outcomes and, frankly right now, you can't get a simple task to tell you if you have covered nineteen in the richest most powerful country in the world, with the by far and away the most expensive, fanciest healthcare system ever devised by human beings.
and you know my sister's is- is a surgeon in New York and can get a test if she needs one. So it's it's a big deal in it's a big problem in american health care has been underperforming on basic public health attributes for decades, yet and other capacity because the medical insurance complex does mere our society almost perfectly right in that on some levels. You can point to our medical system and say it's the best in the world, like people from other countries, travel here to get procedures, which is so true of everything in America. Right, yes for the top, percent, it's fuckin awesome and then for nearly everyone else. It is falling short right, absolutely You see that in general, you know when you look at America's health before this current, iris crisis. Forty percent of american households didn't have four hundred dollars
to cover an emergency, and the number one emergency they were concerned about having to cover was a medical or health one. And for that forty percent of all american households in a most I don't have a doctor. The emergency room is their primary engagement point. So now you know that frankly, emerge The rooms are just not safe places to be from right of it, contagion perspective they ve Dave, effectively been shut out of healthcare system or they take really high risk. and on the flip side of it you're right I mean, if you want a laser guy, robotic surgery with a peaceful postal.
Experience there, there's no other place in the world. He rather be than America. If you had the right coverage and you can cover the out of pocket costs in your connected to the right providers. Now, when we look at the pie, the four trillion dollar pie, do you know if the top your hand it at least ball park like what percentage goes to doctors? What percentage goes to hospitals and what percentage is going to just insurance companies like whose main the bulk of that four trillion dollars. That's a good question. I dont know the exact numbers I think in general, from a profitability perspective Europe's industry and the pharmaceutical industry by far away make them most profit most spills in America operate on almost no margin. You no one. You proud of net patient revenue on an annual basis is there? Is there margin there like a grocery yeah exactly there very, very, very efficient from that perspective in very non profit in their basic opera.
And you know, physicians and doctors dont. Really I mean you just look at their take home pay relative to other occupations in America. not dramatically out of line, so there are the ones that are really benefiting from the system we have today. Yeah there's also these the sports analogies like people or Reed. I dunno Shaquille, It's going to get twenty five million dollars in their kind of appalled by that and then I'll go like. Or would you be happier of Jerry Bus got that money? Could someone's gonna get the money and I think the guy who's button on the show properly should get a good chunk of that money is similarly, the doctors are. Now, on the shell William anyone should be profiting abnormally. It should be there the doctors and primary care physicians in one of the one of the proposals we are trying to make happen and we're working in cities like Boston in Baltimore to create programmes it do. This is to create an entire community health corps in America that
would be a little bit like the civilian conservation core after the dust bowl that just went out and planted millions of treason and rebuild the american agricultural system. As a result, we could do something like that by employing people right now. When so many people need work in order to address corona virus and its consequences, and what would the people do, what what would be, what would be the equivalent of them planting the the trees? Well, we ve put forth a major proposal to accelerate testing and contact racing in America is really the only way to restart the economy without causing more suffering economically for families that are just shut down or or they have to abide by social distancing. And the two main elements of it are broad ubiquitous test. making sure anyone. Symptoms are no symptoms who needs it. S can get a test regularly and second pieces tracing contacts with just means when you get it As a result, you identify
who were all the people that that individual has? into contact with the last for five days and tat. Then go and notify them that they all need a test and that whole circle of people that both got the testing and now need more testing to ask them to health, isolate or self quarantine or take themselves out of circulation, so to speak, to protect everybody else, and the workforce with proposed would help actually do those tasks identify who, who you know to go speak to connect with them. Tell them! Oh you, in touch with somebody who had upon, that have results. Are you need to get a test and you should take yourself out of circulation for fourteen days or so in order to protect others in Europe? unity and I'll say it sounds like a lot of work and it sounds, may be somewhat technical. I led the west end can a bowler response during the Obama administration and we hired and trained almost Eleven thousand community health workers throughout
South Africa, so that was in half a dozen countries and we Last, the: U S: military, to work with a nonprofit group called medicine, sons, frontier. That is a well known doctors without borders is the is the common English, your name and created a protocol in within today. they were able to train cohorts of people and they just ran large scale. Military like protocol training, yeah went village, the village right. I remember seeing like footage of this. They just got mobile and started walking the lower end. We we gave them all protective equipment we gave him. Protocols usually and when there was a positive case identified of Ebola anywhere in West Africa. These teams would go out to that individual find out who they were such with and protect the people they were in touch with by doing further tests. Being in isolation and the reserve That effort, which was really successful, was to just
down the cases in the transmission of Ebola in that context very very quickly, so it can be done. In that case we we actually deployed the? U S military, including military labs helicopter transport for blood samples. At the end of the day, what we got testing down from two it taking eight to ten days to get a confirmation. The test down to under four hours, and we track that. We followed it just through resources and ingenuity added until we got there and I'd look around. I say if America could do that so effectively in West Africa into them: forty two dozen fourteen. We should be able to do it right here at home in America, war I was gonna, be my questions, so that was seen as a very, very successful effort on your part, and I wonder what level of frustration you have you no six years later going what the fuck were. You know that we, they learn this licence and we already had success. We about playbook, that's right. We have to play book and
know how to do this, which is why, at the Rock solid foundation resort to pull together scientists and industry leaders actual we, together, a kind of former administration officials from both democratic and republican administrations and came up with national action plan to do just that a credit card. a hundred billion dollars over the of a year, which you know until about a month ago seemed like a lot of money in our ports ending trillions on on dealing with the symptoms of this crisis. For about a hundred billion, we think we could actually implemented testing pro. And I would go from one million tests a week in America to three million tests within eight weeks and then thirty million tonnes within six months and you know by then we should have home. In point of service testing options and basically before you go to work. If you need to confirm either to yourself or others that you don't have crowd of ours in America,
should be able to take a test, find out the result within minutes and go on to work. I got an agreement. You know, there's a lot of themes to your work over the last twenty some years. One of those you work very well by Partisan Lee ruminant venting alert, You also our synthesizing a lot of different things in a lot of different things play together in these interesting ways that I dont think your average American has a sense of right. So you ve worked extensively on agriculture. You ve worked on health. All these things can funnel into a national security debate. I think a lot of people see headlines like were giving x amount of aid to some country they ve never heard of, and they don't understand it. where's my work, giving those people money and not taking care of our people and on the service. These are very good critiques. I think, but I dont think people really work back
from what we spend our military right so that annual DOD budgets like one point, four trillion dollars or whatever it is, and that's to have guys go, kill people in response to things very far downstream. That probably could have been prevented and I just think in general we just interviewed this great guy, who called upstream you know. Shifting our actions from reactionary to preventative is just a very hard proposition to get Americans to embrace and its frustrating, I'm sure for you, above all people, but just me as someone who reads the newspaper, I just think man we're trying to treat something that's so far downstream of where at the symptoms level, as you just said, and we're never ever putting any investment into prevention or anything in it that the same could be said about national security. It's just like its. It cost so much last to prevent a country from being starving.
No economic options, and then they turn to some military organization of it. We have such a great history in knowledge of how this cycle works in such a limited appetite to prevent it. I'd love for you to kind of just tell us how agriculture affects our safety, how health affects our safety? How all these things ultimately really will be on your doorstep in a different way, where I agree with everything you just said, and would when I striking is actually when you talk to people about american leadership around the world and the very basic idea there. When we help, people and other societies achieve the basic tenets of the american dream, just the basic tenets. You know that the pursuit of life liberty unhappiness. and liberty in particular. They are so grateful for and connected to a man.
In values and american leadership, and it does enhance our safety dramatically and, in fact, the story of american leadership after World war. Two has been: it's been an absolutely by partisan mission to recognise and use american leverage, american Power and american influence around them. Old to stand up for our values. I think eyes in our when he, when he became president after world or to instead work we're gonna put in place an institutional architecture such that this does not happen again and we got the: U N, the breadth of the World Bank the Bretton Woods Institutions, the World Food programme. I think, Kennedy and Nixon. You know all the way through as President George W Bush mounted, perhaps the largest most Lastly, and most successful global health effort in saving tens of millions of lives from HIV Aids in africa- and that was a a pursuit of passion and commit-
the humanitarian justice, but it was also a recognition that, having you know, thirty failed states in in Africa where the core of their productive economy had just collapsed, and you know ten. Fifteen percent of population purse, Country were were dying was not await a secure America safety. So I think it's been a by partisan mission since World WAR two- and I saw at first hand like you know, for what for bad two percent of the cost of the Afghanistan war. We got. Eight million afghan girls the school and you know the number before America engaged on that specific project was basically zero and anyone who has been on the ground and in Afghanistan alongside our troops, as as I had the honour to do knows immediately that those eight million girls are the this of our security for the future. We know about twice
I didn't see. A single woman is a right yeah. I was where the women yeah you get you gotta you're gonna, look at other. I would visit rural communities with David betray serve ever else was kind of in charge. The military effort on the ground and we'd go in and they have right, all the men would be lined up in the front to greet you know the Americans and they were and then we'd ask we'd say: can we speak to some of the girls that are in school and they were in full burka and you in a school house in a private room they'd, let us end and we talked to them and the and the mothers would all say you know the reason We know that America cares about. Afghanistan is because you are sending our girls discord, and any cards for every dollar we spend on the afghan war, its it cost less than zero dollars and two cents to run a program that got in at eight million girls into school that built out thousands of kilometers of roads and infrastructure and
difficult. But you know that's what we did in South Korea after the war that change the face of that occur. me it's what we did and many other parts of the world and you that is getting upstream. That is sort of saying we don't want to deal with the consequences of extreme poverty, huge amounts of injustice. The persecution appear of an entire gender, we won unlock stability and peace, because America does well when other countries that are stable and peaceful and we're seeing that it happened. Tide of in reverse: right now you know the? U S is so behind on this corona virus response that were not able to play our usual role of helping others and the agency, I led the USA deceive international development, which would be on the front lines of this is now actually asking other nations to send us protective equipment and tests. Kids and things like that. Which is a new experience for many those other countries. That kind of the unites unfortunate right now humbling state of affairs right now now, when you left pan
we're, gonna doktor, art, you're, a medical doctor. You could prescribing a sort of useless as doctors. I left ten having got no medical degree, but when I too join Al Gore's political campaign than I joined bill Gates is nation when, when he Melinda were just starting out spent eight years working them and loved. Basically every minute of it, and then I joined the Obama administration the life for MRS there's, nothing, you ve not even heard anything all I got nothing. I can already tell he's resistant to. Let me go through the parents, I mean your parents. Just must be. I can't imagine one of their children is, and the other one is a surgeon. Ended rigid you so these urgent? Yes, yes, I will My parents are so upset right now, hearing them! well I'll tell you might get. When I told my parents, I was leaving medical school to volunteer and Al Gore's campaign, and I was gonna stay at Al Gore's mothers poorhouse rise
younger volunteers to the library. In every day they thought I was gonna, throw it all away and I wasn't sure they weren't right up by the air, but I loved that experience and made some of my best friends in Nashville during that year and Frank, so many those folks have gone. I wanted to offer amazingly effective service during the Obama administration and I'm really proud of that team. Ok, so what excites me the mouth is, I have probably my deepest fascination of any two gentlemen: are Johnny Rockefeller of Red. Tighten, I
times. While if you read it, oh yes, but not all eyes, maybe three surface: it only gets better and better. I mean what are fucking but but but then my other manoeuvre, fascination of course, his bill gates, driven largely by that Netflix Doc. You series and I could be completely misled, so let me to SAM, I'm probably been manipulated by the document about what I gleaned from that is. Every dollar that is donated to any organization should go through bill gates, and here is why he's so fucking pragmatic, my wife, is incredibly philanthropic and I've seen her invite. With let this point over a hundred different organizations in the last thirteen years, and my frustration is in my relief with bill gates is so
as somebody have the kind of a background like you do where they have of a true understanding of market. They have a true understand of economics. They they understand everything that will be involved to execute this great utilitarian. Our altruistic idea, but you neatly bill gates the fact that he brought products to market successfully. He built an organisation that function at the highest level. Andy has- and ideas. I'm like yes give that guy all the money he needs no political help. He has all the approval is the monies independent he's pragmatic. He cares, he's a robot, there's so many times. I have about for the fact that you have been some capacity work for both of these people. What what is it about bill? Jijiu share that opinion of him that he is this very unique suite of of tributes that he both cares and is so fucking logic on pragmatic. I'm here
biased, but I agree with pretty much all of he is he's both brilliant and so deeply committed to learning and its both bill and Melinda, and so I took for granted because I was fairly when I started working with them. I just took for granted that oh yeah, if you are trying to save the most in the world, you know you would look at the World Health Organization tables that publish years of life loss find out the causes. Then make a list and identify the cheapest ways on a per year of life, loss method to save that year of life and and then you pulled gather every company every and GEO, every international organization and say: ok, let's go save six million children's lives, doing X, Y, see immunization project and that that actually happened in and we all did that and and Bill and Melinda and Patty
Nevertheless, the foundation, then there was the malaria. Was that that number one thing that number one thing was global immunization. It was an effort called the global alliance for vaccines in immunization and in addition to raising pulling in bill. Of dollars. We also raised billions and billions raise five billion dollar frying Y yeah. We, I think, you're referring to a specific instrument where we could. We did the first ever social impact bond, but we effectively worked with a group of banks and issued on behalf of a really on behalf of UNICEF at a major security that raised more than five billion dollars and that five billion allowed us to do long term.
Large scale, purchase contracts for the types of vaccines that you'd needed for resource poor countries which, technically or just slightly different than the types of vaccines there were being manufactured and sold for more industrial and wealthier countries and the net effect of all of that is after twenty years and billions. hours of expenditure and probably thousands of people working together around the world. We helped immune more than seven hundred million kids saved six million children's lives- and I think- created a model that we can now use for changing the wavy corona virus testing. Industry works in terms of moving from cottage industry, that is small scale to a more organised, a public private collaboration very large scale to meet the needs of society, but I'm deeply proud of what we are
done then in and bill reminder are just exceptionally committed and very, very talented leaders. I would say one area where I think bill would disagree with you that is if he were here, tell me more than one you know you say He can do it all alone, and I think the thing The thing we learned was you actually needed to engage in politics. You needed to engage governments, you needed other philanthropic partners and you needed companies scientists all working together and You know it was a special time. I remember when I led a specific project, which was the Orient had run Warren Buffett, giving a lot of his wealth and to the gates found. It and we were able to in that moment- really get the best of the best to solve any major problem, and so, when we focused global immunization? You know we could pick up the phone and just pull together the p, You need to really systemically transform a global tax.
If an end at the end of the day, another hundred twenty million or so kids born every year, and we could track going from forty million sixty million to eighty million two hundred million annually, their vaccines, and just me that a mission with real quantitative rigour around acting results and and being really businesslike about delivering outcomes. Yeah and guess what I meant more specifically met was there's a moment where he goes. Look. Here's what's goin on, the warming? Here's what no one likes. Unfortunately, new killers, probably the answer no one likes there. I guess that's what I mean in his independence that you have to go now wants to say this: let's go, why don't they like it and let solve those three reasons: people don't like nuclear energy. That is a position most people can afford to take. I appreciate his independence in those moments stay to arm chair. If you dare we are supported by banning Jerry's? What a privilege, it is to say, were supported by Benningham
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now. How frustrating is it for you do have spearheaded such an enormous global vaccine again and I will not industrialized countries only to be living in a industrialize richest country in the world where there is a sector of people trying to convince people not to vaccine is at that were you not like what they want? They are trying to do this. They you guys, have the knowledge. You have your illiteracy rate, the fuckin come in really, you're trying to undo this way. It's always been disorienting for me, because it's always true that wealth here communities is even just wealthier, are economies right for the Anti vocs movement
is stronger specifically in the wealthiest communities in the United States, not just in the United States. Broadly and that's also true for the community of of people that have been against certain technologies in the food system in including you know, transgenic technology, naturally modified technology, and while there is truth to some concerns in all of those issues, the reality is vaccines in general are salute we necessary for population health and all the data indicate that the safety concerns are met relative to the benefits achieved, and that's even more true in developing countries, They true for agricultural technology as well, and the reality is, if we're going to avoid crises and hunger, as our global population goes north of nine billion people we have to embrace-
safely, use appropriate technologies in the food system? Also, yes, one of the things that frustrates me is there. Did you say, blanket GML right, but I don't think some people recognize what some of that GMO is. So everyone would agree. They don't want round up all over their food writer as we're going to get all kinds of downstream issues. I don't want to get sued, but there's some fucking downstream issues Amber reading that they had taken a gene out of an aloe plan and put it in some corner or something that, in an analogy plants completely bug resistant, just naturally by its own dna. Now to me, that's a great of GM or like I do understand the hesitation, just because of the label earned a nickname. Sometimes in the Obama administration, they called me miss sweet potato head, as I always had for these beta carotene rich, basically, vitamin a rich versions of sweet potatoes in parts of Africa, but I've sat with kids in northern Uganda that had been in communities
judge by war. Some of the things they ve seen are inexplicable. From the perspective of our common humanity starving and the main food item they eat and are fed our sweet potatoes and if you enrich them such that they have more beta carotene in their. Therefore more provide a minute. you can actually improve a number of health outcomes for these young kids and give them a chance to grow up healthier too chance to learn and things like that, and so when people from outside who, having sat and talked to those kids in those families, say that they should not access to that kind of technology. I've been a strong advocate For them it is just wrong, and this is something I think bill emollient have done. Well, I think John D Rockville wrote about this entails like really solving these tough problems, just requires learning and listening and the humility to constantly kind of asked questions and be willing to learn
and I'm always worried about those who you know think they know all the answers, because in a particular experience they ve had in a particular community that might or might not be relevant once you start working it real scale, yeah, probably more persuasive, like a post on Facebook. Sadly, like that's what you're arguing yeah, it's a month's opinion on Facebook, now the other kind of theme that and through your work is, is early on at pan? You got a five hundred thousand other grant right to study hospital efficiency here, and it was your early education and economics that made you recognize like money is gonna, be a huge part of this in. in your ability to raise and access money, is a huge part of the successes you ve had Well, I just to go back to that ten example you over there are just two graduate students, myself and a friend of mine, and we built this little regression model. That would tell you a little bit about when you merged hospice.
how to drive efficiencies on discharge issues and things like that, and when we submitted that grant not at all, expecting the two grand students will win. Time there was a lot of money. Well, we got that grant. We were just blown away and we thought, while this this is gonna, be fantastic and reinforced my commitment and my interest in just using data to solve problems. You know- and I was kind of a Corky application of it, but an important one in that setting and what the story we talk about with immunization was very about using data to solve the problem like an unless you knew how many kids needed to be vaccinated. How many were not getting vaccinated country by country county by county set targets, set goals and then drilled solutions that achieve them. Quite ITALY. We weren't gonna, get there and ends in I was, I feel fortunate, because I've had the chance to do that on efforts that range from addressing food and
curiously in Africa to bringing power and energy and renewable energy to enlarge parts of the developing world, where a lack of access to electricity actually keeps people mired in subsistence poverty. But that was The transformation of when I was at in government. We try, transform the way America engaged on these issues abroad by being more results, oriented more quantitative and more disciplined about the use of data and measuring results. And you know probably learned a lot about from Bill and Melinda that early setting, but it my view it actually allowed us to say to the american taxpayer that for a fraction of one percent of the public budget, we were saving lives and having real impacts around world and end to me. You mention kind of by partisan support to me. I just as much enthusiasm for that approach. From Republicans as from democratic
We did bring people together and it was like ok, you're gonna be responsible about doing this work, we're gonna get behind you. Well, that's what I and a beat this drama here here on this podcast and I'm sure people are sick of it. But you know I am a big bleeding heart liberal there's, no question, I'm a progressive, yet I see the intrinsic value in having conflicting points of view to make each side better. I really do value. The right in I think here is the situation is so often on the left theirs the big hearted mission statement, but sometimes yet the efficiency, the the outcomes they're, not as stringent as they should be. We are spending people's money, so I appreciate the rights insistence that these things yield results that their good use of money span and I think you're in one of the overlaps that can best exemplify when both parties are working together,
for outcome. Yes, I think that's right. I also think building by partisan cooperation on these types of issues is not just about them: the methods so about the relationships. One of the most surprising things for me was, I found getting to know on a really personal level. Faith based republican senators, for example, and and key Republican members of the house who I still today consider friends and even though we don't agree on on most issues politically. I admire the service they offer and I admire the fact that they have an inner core of values, drives their desire to serve, and you know we can disagree, lots of things, but also find the option to agree, and by agreeing on some things, America was able to mount the largest investment in addressing food and hunger around the world that we did since world war. Two,
we were able to create an effort to electrify much of Africa, which did not exist before and we were able to pass both of those bills through a very divided Congress in it had signed by the president, and, and that to me is, I feel like if we can do, there we ought to be able to do it right now. I'm covertly out just solved this problem, because this is a solvable problem and people. I really believe most people, not everybody, but most people show up wanting their service to matter in improving the lives of the american people. Oh yeah, I think some benefit of the doubt and some goodwill dispersed acknowledging that both sides are truly in their heart, trying to make the play better in its really just the debate over how that's done, but here again is where I bet it overlap. I dont know anything about this, but I can tell you both when I was in Afghanistan, two thousand seven, eight and nine. They were staring us in a ton of special forces down to Africa, and so I do if your electrification programme,
if a gain momentum, because there were starting to be all these hot spots of terrorist activity because of the unrest and poverty yeah. I think without question, that's true and without question the military leaders from animal in the grave and whose perhaps most known for getting us in London to David Betrayers too, to all the other major generals, a wicked name, everybody's headed Euro sack and NATO, they all big, very strong advocates for powerful values based american leadership abroad, and they they said, we need- make these investments in development and humanitarian efforts at a far higher level they them for more staffing for for the State Department and for U S, aid and then even the military and they were the ones who said our national investment in global security is out of balance, and we we need to get the balance right by
increasing the investment in how we use our diplomatic and development expertise around the world and, frankly, you know the that set really taken hold and been implemented effectively. I personally, don't think we'd be dealing with corona virus at this scale were currently dealing with it here in the United States, and we have created in that Europe. a programme called predict at USAID was designed to look all around the world, identify headache, which is animal to human transmission of of particular types of viruses, that could then become global, pandemics and connect to early warning systems. There was sound the alarm earlier, get people resources fight these dealing with a global emergency like we are dealing with right now and and that's just one and one of so many different examples of how we can get up, and that's just one one of so many different examples of how we can get
upstream of these things. If we really apply american leadership more effectively again it just so frustrating that take convincing people that is actually a greater savour of lives when I've I've. Just looking at yesterday's gives us in a debate with a friend about what were the deadliest wars and everything and you just go through him right and you get down to Afghan it. and we have been there now for nineteen years and twenty two- hundred Americans have died, meant almost nothing when you compare to world war, wanders of or anything, and yet the amount of people there. would die due to this pandemic. Due to the things you're talking about what will greatly out size that right and yet we have a very hard time prioritizing that version over the the go put boots on the groundwork. Yeah it's hard to way and compare the loss of human life and I've been at Ramstein AIR Force Base and I've been with our troops have been injured. Returning from the field USAID had ninety
in foreign service officers around the world in and we lost more than one during my tenure- and you know, sitting with those young kids in explaining how their father had in Afghanistan had been a hero, had been working on behalf of America to keep our save. That's a tough. whose eighty thousand Americans are we gonna lose two hundred and twenty thousand Americans. I guess that's. My point would never say that about a military operation and we're gonna, throw these guys over them. Where we predicted worst case two point two Well, we're gonna lose. Eighty thousand Americans are going lose two hundred and twenty thousand Americans. I guess that's why point? You would ever say that about a military operation, we're gonna settle these guys over them, where we predicted worst case two point: two million red basket. Yet we had never even number one job. Every government through history is to enable life for their people. I mean
It is truly the most basic responsibility of any form of government since the beginning of time, and though I was really Austria by these these estimates, you know in a sense that well that's just gonna happen that doesn't have to do happen. We know. As you said, we have the playbook. We know how to solve these challenges, but it takes leadership. It takes club vision. It does taken my view: real public private partnership and in real bi partisanship, because there's up there, some really interesting hurdles right because of just watch and sixty minutes, and they had a story about this canadian companies, they're kind of breakthrough, as they have an algorithm, that's tracking. They got access. They convinced somehow the airlines to give them passenger data and then also they ve, gotten COS russian. With some phone service providers rights were not only can they watch every one that flew out of harm. They can also then track where those funds go and where they would may be travel to and in their tracks,
hot spots. Nearly you know, there's synthesizing all this data, air flights, mobile data and here's a great situation where it is gonna hurt, to be by partisan, because you're dealing with significant liberty issues, you're dealing with privacy issues in there's gotta, be some cohesion to figure out how we can protect both sides and yet have a system that actually functions like this one in Canada seemingly did much quicker than everyone else you. I think that firm by the way identified, corona virus in the United States before the official entity in the United States, so so you're a hundred percent right and you know the basically the Rockefeller Foundation Action plan which we have just put out there. We ve put fifty million dollars against actually implement it is based fundamentally on making testing broadly accessible to the american population in a strategic and achievable
and then tying it to contact tracing which includes the digital tools that you just described the Uno, because to do tracing effectively for covered nineteen. You just need to the digital technology and a mapping and it's a lotta geolocation, but we know that all that data exist and, frankly, to some extent, we we ve given up quite a lot of individual private see for the convenience of. In my case, you know if I want to buy a bicycle, are a pair of shoes if I've and just think much less say it at the dinner table. My feed is pretty tailored to exactly the bicycle or the pursues I wanna buy, and that in underlining that is fundamental shift in american privacy. So I would argue that, as long as you protect the unique patient identifiers, the names of Indonesia
yours, you don't you, don't actually have to lose more privacy them, we ve already lost. You just have to use it to save. Those lives as opposed to sell them shoot, but which man you're right, What an irony and whatever Parker see that we are fine and when they did persuades us to buy something, but if it were to save our lives, were so hesitant and resistant. So, yes, you, couple titles and one of them. I got really confused by so in two thousand, and you became the USDA Chief scientists of agriculture research that was under a bummer, but also in two thousand nine. You start working for the United States Agency for international development. You said: how do you both the job of setting. You, don't you don't. I started in the Department of Agriculture, is our chief scientist and as something Alden under Secretary for our science programmes and by the way, the? U S department of Agriculture, for those who don't have as much familiarity, is one of those amazing institutions its the oldest institutions, the american Government
the programme I ran was tied to the Lame Grant University system in America. and all the other state and an M schools are perhaps the best known of those, but also the historically black colleges and universities, and that programme was founded in eighteen sixty two by Abraham, Lincoln in the midst of the civil war, ended to a rise in american agricultural productivity and economic competitiveness and education. There far out at every other nation on the planet for the next fifty years, and so it both ways raising to me how extraordinarily important the department of Agriculture has been in american history and how blood in no significant. It is today, even though no one really knows much about it outside of the folks who are they
yeah you're right. I don't hear people bringing up the USDA point out that we are talking about a stake they bought. I guess and then and then you know tenet I'd, say seventy eight months into that job. I got a call and warning from the Secretary Clinton and then from present Yvonne, and they said, would you move over and lead USAID its. I had to leave that job and take the other one and then one day, five, the new job. There is a second point: earthquake in Haiti in two hundred thousand people die in your task right with one of the biggest humanitarian relief efforts ever That's your job! They fight go, go right back at after that was my job. I say I was one of the phrases where behind the ears are green. I was there. I knew that way and I was like thirty six and knew tat government in that kind of a role, so the earthquake happen in a few hours, not even if you are a few minutes after the earthquake happen within an hour. I got a phone call from the White House and they
the President's going to call you what number should I call you at, and I was telling you that I had, I didn't even have any of my appointees being a political appointees, on board. He had so it's just me and this massive office with basically no political staff and I looked down, I said well call my blackberries, I gave my my blackberry phone number and hung up in Some guy said well, who is as it were, the president's gonna call any president had never called me before so I go. I look at my blackberry there's like one bar and I mean mild. Indeed, so I go and I put it window, and I prop up a desk and sure enough. The president called and I started. I take out a know, tat and you I wanted to do a really good job, because, as the present, He calls, and he says, I'm as our President Obama. Exactly and so he says, I'm putting you in charge of a whole government response- and you know I want you to make us
I said absolutely, sir, and I, and I then took my pen out now, is like ready to write down what he said next and the line went dead Like all my gosh, I just hung up on the presence. I looked at the blackberry and it still had three bars. You know is prompting the window and, unlike theory, seconds later he was in the White House. Briefing room and CNN was on behind me and he says I just spoke ministry to shave, asked him to deploy the pope. Coastguard use the? U S military like he looked like us out in things Then I got my notes and we were off other us after, but he made an air was on day, while the president was Crystal clear that this was both a moral calling that we had two hours from our border. Two hundred thousand people who had just lost their lives in a nation that had been flattened and we should do everything we could too,
save lives and support our neighbours? But he also understood and said that this is a chance to demonstrate to the world how american power can be. used for good, and you know from Kennedy to Obama included in our presidency, I have understood that area and we did everything we deployed, the? U S, s, comfort, weep, saved more lives. During the urban search and rescue effort. We deployed teams from L a county in Dover. We do not. We coordinated a fifty two nation effort to help him The end. Six months after the earthquake, the rate of diarrhoea illness in port AU prince was much much lower than it had been the day before the earthquake, and why years later, the rate of child mortality and child hunger had been cut by more than fifty percent. Investment was up for forty percent
analyze bases basis. Haiti is still a difficult place to make growth and institutions and society where effectively for a lot of reasons, but we did everything we could and frankly were proud of it, and american troops works. By side with our humanitarian leaders, and they delivered for, for what they needed to do. In that mindset of wouldn't do whatever it takes to succeed at this mission is the one that I think we need right now for four covert yeah. So then into doesn't. Fifteen arrives, got appointed to the U N, as one of six to review global pandemics into those affecting. So you, u minimally well
fourteen, you did Obama, but you you ve, been for less six seven years, a mean pandemics, his country, what you're focusing on yeah. I think that that effort was you know if you look at what happened with the ball and twenty fourteen. There was a wave in March of twenty fourteen that that came was responded to and got reduced in rural Liberia and then some time in June and the virus most likely mutated became an urban virus and the transmits ability became far more intense, and we saw a big spike happen in summer, and it was our judgment, the, U N, kind, a panel that included a few heads of state and some former administration officials like myself and and some others that much the world missed that spike in the summer, and then, after that Most of the international response was not working in in sort of July August and September
until the United States said we're gonna really lead here and once we made that judgment we put in three thousand troops. We built out laboratory infrastructure. We worked with our partners like the World Food programme to do helicopter transport with our are Miller. and we went out and trained and hired eleven thousand community health workers on a short basis, but to be part of the response, response worked extraordinarily well, so that you know within eight to twelve weeks, we saw a massive reduction. So the question the panel trying to ask is how do we make sure this doesn't happen again? How do we make sure we don't miss the early warning? How do we make sure we enable strong leadership. How do we build preparedness? Because we know these crises are gonna, be more frequent in the future because of increased have a look at what what? How did you know it would increase, mostly because of
population growth and the increasing interaction between humans and animals, as a result of both population growth and other elements of our food system and and the way we live and in that not express of where you have reservoirs of virus in animals that that sort of every now and then jump into the human population and become transmissible across humans is what we really look for and try to predict and prevent, and so in solving the stuff before it starts is stopping it at the at the animal to human transition point I guess what I'm wondering is. Would it be beneficial that all these areas of great population had a food source that was very predictable, unmanageable in me? Would that be held Yes. That would be helpful and I think what would also be even more helpful because there will be spread, is early warning systems that are deeply connected. So do
we have all the crisis. I spent a lot of time personally with heads of state on the phone you know saying Our focus on the ground or saying, there's x, number of cases they would say well, you know it is invalidated yet and if you say that publicly our economies will be shattered, and so you know we need to to date the data first and listened It was Alan Johnston Sirleaf, whose when we won the Nobel Prize and appropriately saw the kind of broke through that as president, bulgarian said you know what Raj just published the data You think it is because the world needs to know, and we need the help to solve this, but that economy collapsed. It went down thirty three percent in GDP and in a poor country that that leads to widespread hunger. So we had to address that by bringing in a lot of food and support for those very vulnerable. Populations. But the point is you know it case. I think China clearly was not transparent about data.
It's it covert early on and work. What we order panel had proposed was an early warning system where scientists get statements and share it automatically without necessarily needing governments to approve. bearing that data on the Rockefeller Foundation, subsequently built data sharing agreements, cross many many countries around the world it China has proven more difficult to be part of that system, but I had China, though many those systems exist, because we help support that effort to take place, but the idea to having a science driven system so that, if there are cases You don't really need that local mayor or governor or how to state to agree with you you need your scientists, to sound the alarm call others enters into the fight and begin the processing of sequencing, developing vaccines, understanding therapeutics. What could work
and doing that the contact tracing immediately so that you lock these things down before they become global pandemics. Yeah, like an other crisis arenas, there's an earthquake you're not going for the mayor together the ideas it is. Let us say it is like because I imagine the men we know that transcends borders or something again and here there is an appropriate debate. If you looked across, you know, December January the data that was me they are able to. Let you make a judgement about. Is this thing really gonna spread aggressively by. Then it was well known for those that were right on the front lines. The scientists knew what was going on, but it's not clear that the data sent over to the World Health Organization or others was in fact very clear about that. An end, sleep? So it's a we just said this is one of those issues. You don't really wise this little like the Federal Reserve. You don't really want the political folks managing them
data day making tactical decision? Similarly, we need a system around the world where scientists determine the risk related to emerging new potential pandemic threats and a global scientific network maps and deals with it and in its day, sort of power outside local politics stating for more arm chair. If you dare oh, yes, Ported by C B, the M d daddy's favorite sleep, a networks, their works like gangbusters, listen after a month in quarantine, a lot of people are getting into a routine and try to act as normal is possible, but for many others, all routine as won't out the window in the passage of time, is counted not days but an how tall your tower of dirty closes gotten. So what do you do in the mountain has grown so high that you have nothing left to wear?
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So now, ok, a couple of things about the Rockefeller Foundation that I think prior ain't correct me. If I'm wrong but pray, here, two Rockefeller right medicine was not research driven at all, it was just reactionary, it was you, people had elements and we tried to treat. There is no standard of education across the country. is now at the way. The phrase snake oil salesmen comes from here in others there no researchers, no funding, as you can't make money to try to find out what causes the diseases to begin with. There is no incentive to try to prevent disease at that time. So a couple of the amazing things Rockefeller with the help of many people said, was We need some kind of standard right, we need a standard of water, a doctor can do, and so, if I'm correct, I think he he model Daphne's at Johns Hopkins is doing it right there. Doctors are great, so
get them to build this curriculum in this set of standards and any university around. that old dot. This system I will fund and all these universities. It yes, and now we have a standard baseline. What doctors should know, which is phenomenal at that time. It's a paradigm breaker tee and think about that right. Absolute in any starts you funds, the medical research. centre in New York that actually starts preventing all these things. And the one that blows my mind right is in the late eighteen hundred there was this stereotype of all southerners were lazy right and It just seem like probably xenophobia, but that come to find out this thing, hookworm that some very significant percentage of Southerners guy, like in the thirty percentage, range, get hookworm because they don't work choose their culturally. For whatever reason an end, Rockefeller goes well. How do we think
Oh you take some iodine pills, are really and then has gone in three days and then you, you returned to normal energy levels and then all your due to prevent it is where shoes, and so he funds this whole thing to go out into trouble on the ground, like your same walking from village, a village hole, the little seminars to educate people on hookworm, treating the people and by God fucking fixes Was tens of millions of people who felt tired and he was a part of so many things like that I don't think anyone recognises how ass Dean, Rockefellers impact was on this country in the world is its enormous guy. I couldn't even let you know that foundation. Was started more than a hundred years ago on the premise that science should be applied to lift up all of humanity if you think about it, it was the science age. Remember there were world fares and people with heiress wheel and the lights in, and it was all like science transforming industry and he to say how do we make science transform humanity and so
The two big hundred year, investments for the Rockefeller Foundation in the application of science to transform humanity have been health and the culture and on the health side you right, they created the discipline of modern medical education of science based Public Health the programme you described in the southern part of I did, states became the model for County based public health system. That concept didn't exist. Or it went on to Hauser these malaria research programmes malaria, research programmes in Atlanta particular or turned over there your government and grew into the centres for disease control. So in fact, when, when the Rockefeller Foundation Way back well before my time in yours of course, but when they wanted to create an international public health system, they said we're gonna help. You create the league of Nations after World WAR one, but our requirement is that we want
should have an international public health Committee Dead, this science based public health to every part of the world. And the League of Nations that well, you know we're just get started. We can't really do that right now, so Rockefeller. we will how's inside our foundation that committee and then years later they spun out committee as the World Health Organization, and that is why I got in here. That's why W H show is technically older and not immediately a part of the United Nations, even today is that it started before the U every Thursday free day and in the big, huge insight that I continue to be amazed by is that team understood that you got it? You gotta look at these things systemically and actually solve the problem if you're going after hook Don't just do a small grander or a nice charity project somewhere and peoples like I'm all for charity projects that make lives better in communities, but they had,
passing the vision to say: let's get the best scientists, let's build in infrastructure and lead state with it for thirty years until we have eradicated hookworm from the American South or let's invest in it decades, where the research to develop a yellow fever vaccine in their lives. Strawberry around the world or let's build international public health system, and if we have to how's it for twenty years before they spend it out, we'll do that, but because we're in for the long run and that it Lady to be in for the long run with job arson Just Azure I met as young younger. I met Doktor Norman Boiler who's the longest standing employ the Rock Solid foundation, won the Nobel Peace Prize, presidential metal of freedom, congressional medal of honor. I mean he's such an amazing human being, but he is agriculture. researcher. He was at rock fighting for forty five years. somewhere along the way he they invented. A certain type of wheat variety, tat, helped tripling,
I'd rebel wheat yields in India and Pakistan and much of Latin America and he's read it with moving. Almost a billion people off think of starvation through his science and his courage in applying that science when I realized they started that programme in the nineteen tens you It was sixty years later or seventy years later, that it it paid that kind of fruit and what I love about this institution is that ability to just make big bets over a long period of time yet really credible. If I were you, I would be. I mean- and I am sure you are like stone to work for a group with the track record, It's amazing and I'm I can say it, I'm stoked yeah. I understand the reason is even in what we're doing now uncovered like we are able to pull the very best people together and you could be the seal of an industry company or you be a big investor or or a public servant. But it's getting those people
gather to say how would we solve this problem, which is why, when we looked at testing in Toronto, as we wanted to say. How can we solve this for America and then the world, as opposed to just support Canada, expansion and testing in a particular place? Yet, and so what is the most challenging link in the testing situation right now. What were we think? The only way for the american economy to get out of this extreme crisis. This just crushing, crushing crushing maybe half of american families in terms of having to choose between their lives and their livelihoods, is in fact broad access testing and- and we put forth the planets, like one million today, three million and eight weeks- thirty million in six months, as I mention them, the way to effectively get there is not that different than what we did in vaccines and what we did in anti retroviral drugs were HIV Aids.
It turns out that all of these labs place really kind of small short term purchase orders for tests and test kids and supplies and the industry which is dominated by a handful of manufacturers, see those purchase orders coming from. You know economically weak entities on a relative basis and they fulfil them in the short term, but they dont it make the investments they need to make to build out the capacity to get ten acts or thirty acts, the volume of testing materials and supplies into the system. So the first thing we were doing is pulling together the buyers, states, local governments and laboratories and saying we will pull the purchasing. So you can go
they make a contract happened that might go a year out, instead of just a few weeks out and together that contract, plus financial backing from Rockefeller and and banks, which would allow those companies to sail, gave us a secure. This is real. We're gonna make the massive investments we have to make now to scale up the availability of testing for America for the next year and and that's the core insight in my view, what women that infrastructures bill agile? Could it then go to the next one? That's coming I mean. Is that the feeling that yeah yeah I could in theory it could I mean in practice. We have also observed that there is a lot of money going into this now and there needs to be more going in, and our proposals about a hundred billion dollar investment over the course of a year which would allow for a reimbursement. Rate at a hundred dollars. Protest, whether or not that test is in network out of network
you're not done at a research lab done it a lab core request lab and it would just make the system less complicated and more efficient, particularly for the next year and frankly, you know the companies will do fine in that. In that so where a war as a country- and so we are asking that industry to dramatically scale up its production of these critically needed task to invent some new ones and get him through the process quickly and were offering a financial backstop so that you know they dont at least on lose money. Doing that but we need that as a nation right now and then I would imagine you are you already preemptively trying to press for the mass production of the vaccine when its of l, like our people ahead of that is that being looked at him funded Yeah there's an organization called Seti that has been doing that on a global basis. I'd say bill, gates and Gates Foundation been very focused on vaccines and were very folks
testing in the net sort of works together well and we're gonna need that. Massive scale of production, distribution and consumption are ultimately no use of vaccines, but that's gonna. Take the. While I mean all estimates indicate that twelve to eighteen months away and just to put it in perspective we're losing right now, five hundred billion dollars a month in GDP loss because of the shutdown and while for me and my family, for We are getting more time with my kids have around. I agree and I love it and it's become this both challenging, but also special moment practically speaking for most american families. This is deeply debilitating and and it like everyone, people we now see who is an essential worker and we see that those workers have not gardener raise in forty years. Then, almost against the american economy have gone to capital and not labour, and they don't have family medical leave. That's
They don't have the security of any real savings and they don't have a living wage. And nevertheless they're out there risking their lives, so the rest of Amerika can be safe, and so you know that The reason we need to be more aggressive about testing and tracing is is to make sure that the half of all american households there are living that way can survive the next gear. The next eighteen months like this is a crisis right now that is unbelief but we have more unemployment in America than we have had, since the great depression gonna wait, there's a lot of talk about the stock market, but there is not a lot of talk about them, quality of life for those working american families. It seemed that this whole thing started pretty a politically and out seems like it. It's funneled into the two camps by the West
I see both sides. I mean you, like you just said the other there are people can go the hospital there's all these kids now that were born in the last three months that are on their schedule already for vaccines there's gonna be collateral ripple affects people are right to question whether those effects will be worse than what the covered unchecked. I think its editor Oprah question. It is a fair question by the way it's going to get a lot worse in August, because the next flu season starts kind of MID August. You'll have a host of new viruses that have symptoms that look like Covid nineteen and without a ten x, thirty x increase in testing you're not going to be able to know the difference, and- and I fear that that's going to prevent schools from being operational. I think it's going to really prolong the misery
there? We are inflicting on America's working families, and so are we seeing more bi partisanship right now, I'd say part away. We did the plan, we did. We brought together Republicans Democrats in a man and said what can we agree on and we put a plan forward that is actionable and I was on today with Forty members of Congress and working through that, I would say observation is, is both sides have real merit to their ideas but that's, not the issue. The issue is a width wary of merit, your ideas, Democrats say we should use the defence production act, much more aggressively, that's true, but if we're not gonna do that thirty ex scale up of testing in American there's no indication that we are, then we ve put forth a public private approach that can actually work to deliver results for american family. Now and as opposed to just prolonging the political conflict?
Similarly, I think many on the right or the conservative side have embraced and eager to open up very quickly without having data systems in place, and there can be looking at big, immediate pandemic rebound waves. We ve seen this South Korea was in imports of China. We ve seen it in the four which find it the best lockdown as you imagine, a landing place on the planet and even Dave had multiple recurred waves when they open up so that we need to be we're like Germany or Iceland, someone that's taking testing seriously or South Korea. This is a bipartisan action plan because look if you're a frontline, how because my sister is, as I mentioned in any art, you're taking risk everyday, you need to get testing and don't really care right now, whether the solution comes from one type of approach or another type of approach, You just are risking your life in deserve to have a test and that's the mindset we used in putting the plan forward in an hour working with
you know it doesn't cities, work and half a dozen states work of the few native american lands, to implement this effort in and hopefully will get the federal government working with us at scale. Also A layman arm chair expert, I have to say of consistently been like all. This is so theoretical simply because we don't have tasks need it, crazy. We don't have an antibiotic tests that we can say, as you know, above ninety nine percent. I know there's a couple out there that all of its the radical, how long's event near how many people have not in an in it were just guessing on some level until we actually have that data subject to me step one has to have always been everyone gets has yet and just to put it in perspective. Look as we work very closely with mayors around the country. I've had in the last forty eight hours, three different layers of me your american cities. Tell me the same story. This heading, I gave a press conference and then someone tweeted.
and said. I have five thousand tests, kids, you know in Asia somewhere. So I said to my I'm a team in their chasing it down, I mean that is no way to run all national response, and we hope we are America, for goodness sake where the strongest and most capable nation on earth when we want to be- and we can't have you no two hundred different local leaders, chasing we have come in we're offers to sell them things. There needs to be cohesion to the system. We have to bring together and we will do it initially and then we'll get the federal government and others to join, This starts to work, but bringing together in creating a discipline, clearing house, that's data driven, they can place large long term purchase orders, that's backed by the and shall capacity of our endowment and other institutions is, is where we're going with this and we believe it will work at their changing the numbers. I am so grateful that,
you're doing my job. I have two nosey questions. Gonna, let you go, one is so Rockefeller was the first guided billion dollars right. How much money is in this endowment at this? right now, we have about a five billion dollar endowment. We have a fund that we raise and expand alongside an endowment called co impact, so we offer other families and institutions that are large scale giving operations usually sign on it about twenty five million each and we raise and spend a few hundred million dollars per through that vehicle, and we have an investment platform for people who want to make an impact, oriented investments, and we raise we re. Money and expanded through that platform as well. So all three of those really define our capacity. For me,
late, but I say you know the other thing that Rockefeller did over more than a hundred years, was it just invest in people their fourteen thousand Phd trained leaders around the world that are called rocky docks because they got their degrees with support, from the Rock Solid Foundation and I'd say, half of Africa's agriculture ministers iraqi docks so so we have this also network of people that we can tap into around the world and ability that comes with for more than a hundred years. Having done this work really with a true public mission with desire to help vulnerable families improve their living conditions. so I find it more than the money right now, because money is in others plenty of money. To be honest, it's the ideas, it's the people we can bring together, it's the commitment to delivering results and it's the approach of saying. Let's crossed these device,
let's get the manufacturers together with the lab directors and figure this out or let's get Republicans together with Democrats and be a bridge that can help just deliver results when their needed the YAP. I would draw what did you're ok. So my last question and its related to that so John D Rockefeller found it eventually overwhelming people knew he was going to give out money and then who's gonna, try to make the world better in the onslaught of requests, became such right that he ended up, employing his friend to run in size and sift through all these requests. So are you, you have three kids you're, a human being But do you find that the weight of how many people probably want your involvement daunting? I do I actually just honestly I do through my work. I've had a chance to really connect with and see extraordinary people in tough circumstances. Do things that I just can't
that are so courageous and so brave hundreds, thousands of them whether they are the folks that are behind a running those schools in Afghanistan that we talked about or people who run hospitals in the Dim Tonga Republic of Congo and help girls who have been subject to rape and violence. or folks that fight trafficking around the world and because we now have you no access to these resources. this, like real desire to just do everything you can to help all these people you know our heroes and you know how hard they work and you know of their deep personal comment. VE, given their lives in their careers in their lives to just service, which we just don't have the ability to help all of them. yeah. So I do get a lotta request that I have two unfortunately say no to, and it does kind of way I knew
because you ve just you just know how hard their working on the other end- and you know the difference there making in the lives of people their touching and the senses service that underpins it, but the flip side of that is, you know we save our fire power for these kind. big systemic transformations and the ones that were betting on now broad testing in the united. Dates and around the world, particularly in Africa and South Asia over time to overcome, covered nineteen or making a big bad on addressing food security in Africa in particular, and there's gonna be a big crisis. Coming later this summer in the fall as a health crisis causing a food crisis and ultimately, a major global investment to end energy poverty using new technology and mobile technology to working with companies around the world to move a billion people out of it
in poverty by getting them reliable access to electricity and- and we think we can do those things and we studied them. We know the issues we know the people were out there making it happen, I'm really proud. Our teams. We have teams all around the world, and you know this. A crisis that has a lot of risk specially. for our Nairobi team or a new Delhi, Tamer bank acting team, but they're out there working hard continuing to pursue the mission. So, you can't support, everybody ended. It gets personally tough to signal, but we save our fire power for our biggest bets yeah. Well, others Uganda you're back an awesome, I'm so glad you're at the helm of the Rockefeller Foundation. It is grateful. There's people like you that have dedicated their lives to service and in dumb by God, where we'd be without Ya'Ll is unimaginable. So thank you so much it thanks for taking the time to talk to us, I'm sure your your phone, your phone, this is busy LE. Thank you and thank
you it's nice to meet you this way and Monica nice to meet you tonight. I guess I'm, while I have you, oughta do have access to five billion dollars. You know that around eighty percent of Americans Don, on four hours. I just don't know how they went to sleep at night. No way. There's someone I would ever longer, I think, of my car guy. Your background, we have both have to solve that some other I got. I saw forty four hour with by with my kids it I just love them, I think so ugly, Turkey again soon, take it and now my favorite part of the show the fact check with my soul may I I you gotta, get to speak to Jason Deleon on today about so Jason daily on. Of course, you have people heard that episode, ISA Premier,
archaeologist winner of the Macarthur Grant and answer a teacher at Ucl, and I said hey, how do you feel about the Cinco De Mayo thing cuz? I Monica, and I got in this big debate about it. You know he laid out a bunch of different things. He's like purslane he's. Like I love it. I think it's great you like a fucking sombrero. But he said he's like the reason your Saint Patrick Stay thing does I'm not sure works perfectly is out he's like I dont know. If there is celebrating Saint Patrick stay when they were also shading on irish people. Here they were shooting on them all week long and then they were celebrating them other than that. I say now. The only believe benefits Jason No well now. Also fair, it's fair that you'll believe it. If it's him key can speak to the community more than I camp one hears what happens I think more generally. Yes, he is in the community, like that. Might my sometimes need your things like, I feel like people are advocates for communities around, even apart of in so I I. I question their intentions, a little bit yeah but
from someone that actually has some experience with, but also just quite often I respect you autonomy, of a different opinion than me and I go home is weird. I respect myself. Obviously I hold my own thoughts in high esteem and then I hold yours and then night as somebody who's in my opinion, morbid tie. Breaker like I consult them as a tie, breaker but was nice, he kind of said both things, that sky was I'm framing it as I go in for both of us again, I wasn't trying to save people, shouldn't celebrate, celebrates and go to my right and read any other comments, but were mad at me about that guy I know, but I'm just saying, and I'm gonna stand by this, always that you should take a few seconds to think before you act, that's, all I'm asking for idle and yeah. I just never gonna sort of
down. On that opinion, I think it's ok to think about the implications of the stuff. I agree, so I dont everyone back on anything we want ever show. If you back down everything right dies Is the gates um? I have to choose, as though, sometimes I feel like I have to choose between having an opinion. That's nay begun a cause of fight or cause He pulled to comment or whatever or just not say anything in petrol and be happy. So why do that way on certain topics that are a bunch of topics that have opinions on that? I'm just now, willing to wait into the controversy over my life's too short for yeah doesn't mean I don't have conviction about the opinion or whatever I just like. You know, life's too short to deal with the outcome of that time. Bomb it is it is. I think you know a lot of it.
Evaluating whether you think it can be productive or not. Yet I don't think it's that you're not selling yourself out by not vocalize in everything it just like, which ones are productive and watch aren't yeah. I think that stare- and I do think sometimes I this is a hard pill for me to swallow, but I think it's true I'm I'm not in a relationship, so I don't have to juggle. This is much but, like so times your opinion is worth the fight, yeah yeah Will you and I are in a relationship, and that is the case sometimes like we ve discovered recently that we're just better off not talking about corona, whereby very emotional about it. I'm emotional about. I don't have your motion, what I'm very emotional about it, and this is a topic like we never end up feeling better afterwards ever convinced me of anything, and I never comments you of anything which is rare, exciting you and I very open to being convinced by one another that I can reckon is that on this one might years are closed and I think there's a there.
Lot of emotional stuff going on with me about corona. That makes probably my opinion less valid you want to about it it. The reason this whole thing is very emotional, for me is that I talk to my mom about this yesterday, so I don't feel bad talking about her in this respect: boss, then she came home. Then she said we're moving to disguise house and we why and she said because are going to be really happy there and then we said: okay we went there and then we were not happy and then I so why are we still hear it because the premise has been proven wrong at not happy here everyone's me, you're. So why are we still here and now without her saying I just can't fail at this again. She wouldn't say that now she didn't even know what she did, even though it at the time it became a new thing and to me Explanation kept getting less and less plausible share
and so for me from my point of view, it was ok. We have this virus corona were now gonna be able to get rid of it. It's gonna spread now. The only thing we can hope to do is control the speed at which it spreads So we don't overwhelm the medical system and we got a flat in the curve and I was like yup that's a great plan in this the same thing and doing the right thing to do and in my opinion, which is all right as for my emotional contacts, is we didn't overwhelm the medical system? It seems obvious. We didn't do that and I think we can. We can now chow. This without overwhelming the system. and so I'm not sure anymore. Why were doing it? I feel, like the premise is gone now and in its system of bringing up this, For me, words like will now what there is now there is another thing or even yesterday Christen I gotta fight cause as I walk
going at the innovators. It be great. If we all had already had it is, then we can just kind of travel through were and she's like what no we're still can't do that. Unlike way too to go. You said that if we all had, it then wants to worry about it, and then I just feel like the gold post keeps getting moved, I'm having a harder time grasping the reasons why, then, I was original. That's it's very o oversized in my head. It's really way more difficult than it should be like yes, her ears is overwhelmed by a year and tat makes me very emotional, and I feel like I'm just stuck in something that I have no San. It yeah it's hard for you to feel like people, all have control over you and other changing the narrative on me? That's totally fair and I understand I get it. Triggered actually by the fat like if I were to argue about it with someone
Claes wife. It doesn't trigger it, because I don't love her. She doesn't love me. I dont like I'm doing something out of love because I actually doing a lot of behaviors out of my love and respect for you and Christian and our friends who also share this opinion. so it's it's really interwoven with like love and doing some. I don't want to do for love in its it's really complicated re, it is complex. Everyone's doing things- I don't wanna. Do you now not just specifically with this but in life and After all, there is our sacrifices that come with loving a person your big time, and but there is the point, and that's when you're trying to identify whether you're codependent an IRA like, are you going down with someone ship but just because someone believe is: there's a monster in the corner can only join them so much before you like, and now I can't join you did. I do
the inconveniences that its presented are easier when you believe in them that the mission of it you like I think I'm more inconvenience than you are you're equally is inconvenienced. more than I am and we are collect only way less inconvenience than most awful. I mean like. I feel, to be honest, not very inconvenient switches. I I'm glad saying all this, because sometimes when we fight about it, I do think like what he not doing that. He wants to do here and I can't come up with anything and then I get frustrated because I'm like own even understand what the point of this is because it into it doesn't field to me that there is a inconvenience or a big loss world. So the way you you feel like the really rooted feeling you have about protecting your grandparents I have a very rooted feeling about our economy in
downstream effects of our economy? Sucking are doing well, and I I am panicked right now about what we are doing and what were planting and what we're gonna reap very. irrationally panicked about that. It takes up a lot of my talk, my mental thought in and my concern and I'm very nervous about it's like I can't read. The New York Times are only one in four adults is now employed. What's up give me the sane, and in that I that's gears me the way terrorism scares other people. I feel that way about the kind of like that's what really fuckin decimate this country, you, no, I guess, not being productive for three months.
I understand I'm sure my side of the argument is emotional too. It has to be for me. I probably feel like I'm projecting a sense of oh you don't care about me because you'd, We want to protect me from this year. I wanted my mom was so my mom all about it yesterday, The first thing she said is. I can only imagine if the inference that Chris Monica are making, or even if you're, just interpreting as you are not a good protector that you're off the reservation goes knowing you who are cape at five years old and told me your super attacks in you're going protect me. I have to make and to be seen as someone who is potentially a threat
as opposed to someone it's keeping them safe is probably very hard for you and me, and I think that I think she's right, yeah I mean I know what, if I were you, I'd go just be safe. If you want to protect us safe. yeah yeah yeah that that, in Romania, such different opinions of what save those kids triggered I can imagine that were unique in these stresses of This scenario map to after imagine, people all over America like living with people. They don't agree with on this thing and it's gotta be really hard Definitely yes- and I know that I know that when we're having conversations, I know that's a deep rooted thing with you about needing to protect then sometimes I feel like. Ok, then I have to make a decision a sort of going back to what you are talking about with opinions as like, I have to decide there I am going to why
say that I guess just be fine with whatever. Ah, even though I am not, even though I feel unsafe, ah to keep the peace or I could keep saying, what I feel witches this scares me and know that there's gonna be unrest, so don't like having to choose yeah yeah, but sometimes give to you while the other part was I was discussing it with air. Can I was saying you know in Actually I recognize I'm doing the exact wrong thing which is instead of making you feel safer and making Kristen
feel safer. I'm trying to get you to think the way I feel so then you won't feel unsafe to begin with, like I'm trying to erase you even feeling scared to begin with, and it's a it's not working, I envy I already know: that's never how you make someone feel safe, but it's so tempting for me to go like what if she just saw the way, I did she be scared and its such waste of time, for both yeah for me to try to convince you, there's nothing to be afraid of bright Amazon's. I'm sure it feels like does ignoring that you're saying why do feel unsafe so around dahlia an idea dont Walker. I don't wake up in the morning and feel unsafe. Now, you're, not crazy. I don't want anyone to think that you're, like some militant crazy person. no, I mean, I hope, not
but I also am taking it seriously. When I think about like oh realistically, am I gonna be able to see my family in twenty? Twenty? Probably not that's really hard for me, YA I mean I've never done that, and I don't like the aid. Of it at all, and that's a realist hey. What's gonna have to happen, so you know There has been a lot of guys in my meetings that are sharing about reminiscent this is for them being sober in the nineties when the AIDS epidemic was at its peak and people were so afraid of it. They were urged not to go to meetings, people their know how communicable it was, and they were urged not to be lovers and do not be intimate and all this and they were just saying how much it's bringing up that tromp of that experience and they ultimately were like the others
exists. It's dangerous, but we have to be together and we have to have our meetings and we have to be lovers and we have to do now. Very complicated, and that was something that was like none dying from this thing like in the half of you who get. This are gonna die, you know and they had the une such unique. Waiting for them as a community. They had to just go like ok. Well, what level do I feel safe? It's gonna be worth the risk for me at some point, but that's the difference. It's worth the risk. For me, my risk is small their risk is. Much higher and then subsequently my grandparents races much much higher and I can't make that decision for them like you know I can't what're, they remember and said you hey. We know the risks we want to see you would you do now because my mom me yesterday kind of like
No, the wrists and I'm not gonna, not see my kids over it. I'm gonna role. The dice see my kids. Which I very much. If I were seventy you're telling me, I couldn't see Lincoln and Delta. I believe you know what I mean by the same gonna die of it. I'm gonna see my kids Gazelle might die of old age. Anyways like I can see myself going, I dont really care. I gotta see my kids that if they die, that's on me to carry the rest of my life, that's not on them. They carry like. I dont want them to die and I definitely don't want them to dive anything that I could have a hand in like manner, not an option for me to aid in killing them. Rightly guy. Just never. were ever gonna, be a part of something like that, so I will see them when it. I know for sure it is safe to do that, which is why, Equally, a vaccine and nuts way away there. So I just feel sad. I guess about
you're, just Polly feel sad, yeah. Yeah me too. yeah band were in the luckiest scenario humanly possible. We are yeah and we feel sad So this action I do, I imagine all day, that's part of why I feel this whole thing like that. May I this real housekeeping to do for you here. This was a corona heavy episode, we're ok, so you ever, way. Ok, rods, sorry Raj! We had some real housekeeping to do here this was a corona heavy episode. We're ok, so Reference the Adam Smith, invisible hand, but we did they go into it sunk. His people know what that is. The invisible hand describes the unintended social benefits of an individual self interested actions, a concept that was first introduced by Adam Smith.
The theory of moral sentiments written in seventeen, fifty nine invoking it in reference to income distribution yeah in that way. I understand it too is like the invisible hand in the market that keeps everything equal basically like there's all these things that make supply and demand worked and it gets agreed upon in the price is agreed upon. Theirs is invisible force making all this shit happens Ok, the deity budget, you said is one point: four trillion dollars annually. seven hundred and thirty eight billion. There should be more clear if you include Department of Homeland Security. You can include a couple things, but really is viewed the total defence budget, including the Oda in homelands carrying a couple others well into. Doesn't nineteen the proposed fiscal year, twenty twenty budget request. national security in total, with seven hundred and fifty billion seven hundred and eighty
point three went to the deal D. Ok use, oh yeah, you said twenty two hundred Americans have died in Afghanistan, war as of July two thousand a teen. There have been too and four hundred and forty. U S military debts and the one Afghanistan, one thousand eight and fifty six of these death had been the result of hostile action. Twenty thousand three hundred and twenty american sir as members have also been wounded and action during the war. In addition, or one thousand seven hundred and twenty. U S civilian contract or a fatal I was in two thousand and eight what's so sad is that a thousand of those deaths were friendly fire. That's how Pat Tillman died for breaking the guilt of being someone who, okay, that two hundred thousand people died in Haiti up two hundred when he should give or take
how can they really living? There was a real hard time, accounting for a lot of the people there. Oh where's snake oil salesmen comes from the grey, or this is exciting, yet, as you can hold up the etymology, sure is that the beat like the governing ok like etymology in words, is where it do. Yeah yeah. Ok, oil is a euphemism for deceptive marketing and healthcare fraud. It refers to the patrol. I M based mineral oil or snake oil that used to be as a cure, all elixir for many kinds of psychological problems in eighteenth century Europe, especially in the UK, viper oil, had been mentally recommended for many afflictions, including the ones for which oil from the rattlesnake pit viper a type of viper native to Amerika, was subsequently favoured to treat rheumatism. Oh maybe I should try and skin disease both issues they goin. Longer though there are,
sounds of oil obtained from the fat of various fibers in the western world. The claims of its effectiveness as a medicine have never been thoroughly examined and its efficacy is unknown. It is also likely that much of the snake oil sold by western entrepreneurs was illegitimate and do not contain Indians derived from any kind of snake snake oil in the United Kingdom, and United States probably contain modified mineral oil. and probably opium problem most of the winner also have one percent obesity bout like eating fucked up and you stop thinking about Rio illness was when you're ever on those drugs. I guess if your arm like an maybe if your honor or something different, look in the mirror, and you look different
has that ever happened to you? You know what what happens is tat if you like stare yourself in the mere on terms what what'll happen as you'll start looking at your skin and you'll notice, areas of your skin are like really wide or really read or really in. You can kind of imagine let your seen like almost the. float phase or something but it all it is never a for me. I can only speak for my experiences. I'm never like. Oh no, my foot, this is bright red right, I'm like oh. This is so cool, I'm shrooms my face looks bright red herring at Iraq. That becomes a lion I am going. This is so cool that I can see this line in this rock because of this drug, I'm never thinking oath there is a while interest, at least for me. I mean control enough. That's also need about em they're like having a dream, but you are aware that it's a during ok, see you talked about hookworm. You said
Eddie per cent of southerners got it. There was a full gas by forty percent for for so I'm Rita, good chunk of staff that I read about this can understand what Europe you in this up my grandma from Kentucky in she. All of my scenes come from her excitement. The summer's with her and shoes are always smells like a poor captain. Here, still that means all it's raining and sunny the devil's beaten. His wife was put on shoes, you'll get hookworm. She was obsessed with hook one year as an adult like zero, even such a thing as well Gorham, so that when I read in that because I got my God says of warm forty percent to be worn out, it custodial evidence shows the parasite ravage the American South throughout the early twentieth century as a result of poor sanitation and a lack of public health programmes among the poor by nineteen o five. The pie, recital legists Charles Styles is estimated that forty percent or more of the southern population was infected with hookworms as recent as the nineteen fifty hookworms were an intimate and ever present threat,
Grammy also is fully formed at one thousand nine hundred and fifty and one thousand nine hundred and two Charles Stiles, a medical zoologist from New York. Finally dragged the hookworm out of hiding styles, have been by the Department of Agriculture to help farmers keep their animals healthy, but he became fast it was solving the riddle of the south, stunted exhausted workers. He began collecting samples and soon identified the tiny culprit behind the workers debility so grateful for people who don't who are like? Why is this happening? And then they look like most people are just like that. And then just keep going court agree more so this we're gonna get in trouble, but here's where this is a little bit, like my fear of like you, can even make an observation is also lets say in. If we, Live in. Nineteen o five around like southern are fuckin lays yeah. That's what I want the yes and instead of going like, don't call southerners lace, That's wrong: you know this
type existed for some reason in someone was like: why are they see there's an explanation? So it's a little bit tricky disconnect stereo type at that I do in this specific case too. He must have said, ok desert, Stereotypes are lazy, yeah. I know they're not genetically different than northerners. Yes, there must be an explanation for this air. I'm glad his Inclusion was an old northerners, are just races, let's call it. Again southerners right. explains it right. He dug more than that. That makes MRS he, with his own eyes, these people being very lazy,
Why did it was the whole thing he didn't understand whether this is the story of his working in agriculture and the workers can't whirlwind Ursula higher Hobson should ever really ought to be one of the cell. These are people holding hose Mustafa shields. Mapping out there have styles was convinced that ridding the sow. The programmes would make the region more productive, but local, Doctors would not listen. Dismissing him is arrogant, are pointing out that his expertise was an animal's, not people. He was in listing guy but testy and hard to light. He didn't suffer fools one of Rockefellers gifts. Was he collected these people people that everyone hated yeah, so his red medical research facility in Manhattan was full of people that are basically been kicked out of academia because they were so hard or well. That's Claudia. There is like a home for misfits that had great ideas, ok, word and styles and his discovery, however, soon reach John D Rockefeller, who is act,
they looking for a certain type of philanthropy project hookworms fit the bill. Rockefeller didn't wanna put money. Things that would bring the american capital system into question like income inequality, health on the their hand is not controversial, so no one wants their kids going up sick, unlike in the north southern states, public health agencies almost completely lacked funds or personnel and ninety nine raw. the feller donate to one million dollars to create them of our sanitary commission for the eradication of hookworm disease. Appointing Wickliffe rose a professor of philosophy in Nashville to run the organization rose, begin an anti hookworm propaganda, campaign across the south and sent young doktor straight out of medical school to visit towns throughout the region. Arriving on horseback with microscope in tow. The doktor said it makeshift clinics townspeople often treated. This is an event. People showed up with potato salad, chicken to make a day of it. Then this big stereotype ugh deposited positive, tasty one here in some ass. If they
be married in the hookworm tent romantic. We were the Just couldn't give the townspeople indoor plumbing and running water, but they could teach them how to construct what they called sanitary privies and they could by everyone shoes, but they could tell people to be careful about where they walk. So the other thing you You know the exact same time was key started. All the first black colleges be spent so much money black folks in the south educated. How did he was use he's gotta do ignominy data and I was like the ultimate Islam for both of you. I know it's really cool there. the role of his evil capitalist ways? Ok, it was the first gotta have a blind eyes. Yes, he reached a billion dollars on September, twenty ninth nineteen, sixteen and the way he did that really is that the who was it? It was maybe Roosevelt who wanted to break off the trust and he broke up. The trust
But in doing so he they broke standard oil and the like six different companies, but he owned Jordi share and then the stock value of all those company enjoy shot up, because that the one big company was its cost so much to buy a share of it at that point prohibitive, but once it became accessible. That is broke up his trusting. They like quadrupled his wealth wow that's jokes. On whoever, Theodore, Roosevelt or not, very good dude I want everyone should read type are just about to say that I really one read it now. Well, that's all four are the most productive man on earth. The congratulations Raj, that's all I love you. I love you and I am grateful for your unending patients in navigating our car scenario. I'm grateful to four years. I loved guy