Richard Dawkins is an English ethologist, evolutionary biologist, and author. He is an emeritus fellow of New College, Oxford, and was the University of Oxford's Professor for Public Understanding of Science until 2008. Richard joins the Armchair Expert to discuss his draw to science, his theory on evolution and the lack of language diversity in English cultures. Dax admits he has been a fan of Richard since college and Richard declares what shows he’s watching on Netflix. The two talk about atheism, the evolutionary cause of death and the distortion of objectivity due to human filters.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome, welcome, welcome to arm chair expert experts on expert I'm Jackshaft I'm joined by expert Monica pad man, glad man. We have a very exciting somebody, I've kind of had an intellectual boner for since college yeah, one of your heroes, yeah on the Mount Rushmore of Science and atheism, but give it a shot if you're religious yeah, I think, were fair in this. Richard Dawkins famously wrote the selfish gene. That's how I was introduced to him a book he wrote in nineteen. Seventy which was a real paradigm shift, will get in that he's. Also an english ethologists, evolutionary biologist, an author he's in this fellow of New College Oxford and was the University of Oxford Professor for public understanding of science from nineteen. Ninety five. two thousand and eight he's, the greatest show on earth, the God delusion the ancestors tale the blind watchmaker the extended phenotype
of course, self gene. As I said, he has a new book called outgrowing God, a beginner's guide. We also talk. his foundation, a bunch and it's just a very fun- thrilling chat with a hero of mine. So please enjoy Richard Dawkins we are supported by legacy box Monica you know, movies. They can really transport you back yeah. Fun times, campaign yeah also photos song little significant NIST Alja. I don't want these photos pompu that I did eyes with legacy box of my mom and I she's in uh, Omaha Racing Jacket and I'm a cookie monster code, and it just really made me feel so, wonderful and lucky for my dear sweet, mom now listen, you should all this stuff legacy box is here to digitally preserve them before they degrade. Eat or something bad happens like a fire flood, so digitally preserving your recorded memory should be as important as capturing them legacy,
Box is simply the best way to convert all your old analog media, dvd Thumb, drive or even convenient digital download. So you can easily share with other members of your family. That's the best part. Is you digitize all the stuff and you blast it out to your family and friends, and then they get the warm fuzzies, You go online and purchase the box that you need. They send you a legacy box kit and you filled with all your media slap on a prepaid mailing label and send it back, then legacy Bach takes it from there in a couple of weeks. You'll get all your region plus perfectly preserved digital copies, ready to watch, share and get started. serving your past today, go to legacybox dot com, Slash Dax, to get forty percent off your first order. Save time and memories go to legacy box, dot, com, Dax and save forty percent, First and foremost, I just want to say Richard, I don't think
and this nervous to interview somebody I've, never owned a copy of someone's book for twenty years and then brought it to the interview to be signed. This is a first for me, so I just want to say you know you're almost for me. A mythical figure, I've enjoyed listening to you over the years, because you also have quite funny last night, I thought, I'll revisit one of the salmon Richard LIVE podcasts. You're so funny, and if you don't mind I'd like to Thank you a human before we talk about all your unless you work in your view, points on everything I see you are a human in front of me. Accordingly, a mythical thing, If your brother, you're right Sir. Can antithetical? Do you watch tv shows your favorite tv shows. I I watch the recordings on Netflix and things like that. Yeah yeah same in you do you binge shows yes, I binged for Stephen FRY, because I was giving him a thing called the Richard Dawkins Award, which which,
we give every year and this year I binged wreckage of a sick- that, to the same reason, aha- and I love them both almost opposite to each other. Stephen fry's, a bay in and cultivated Ricky is kind of beyond the pale in many respects, uh huh. Equally funny I did not the fry one, but we loved the Gervais phase, an obvious He is a brother in arms in the kind of atheist mother as well yeah. He a very good job of being on stating his point of view and then putting a real nice comedic spin on it. So it's kind of digestible to this moon is full of sugar approach, precisely right exactly what he does. Ok good. So you watch television, also, you have a very unique childhood in that you were born in Kenya. Is that drive that correct? Yes, it's not so unique for british people of my age actually is because it's a pretty common in when I went to school. It seems like about half the boys ride the bonus Africa or India. Oh really is for
The younger listeners in myself. Truly that only exist the kind of Colonial Africa that only exists in Hemingway books, or you know it's kind of a bygone era. Yes, and it went gone very suddenly as well, it disappeared. Very, very quick really oh, really kind of overnight. Now what precipitated that? I can just change of that. However, then called the wind of change. It was just a very, very swift political movement, yeah, rather analogous to the way the gay movement in this country was very, very swiftly. Transformed things turn things upside down in the historical view and happen in one second, yes, right, that's what we're hoping to do with atheism. I mean that that, because, at the present, atheists are not able to enjoy the full membership of society when they come get it ready, they get elected, is very difficult to get elected and what we're hoping is that we can emulate the gay community did
and almost overnight you to terms transform things. One hurdle I can immediately imagine is that there is a built in sympathy for a group that is so obviously excommunicate and it comes with such a price tag on the familial relationships and same with the civil rights men's the I've never seen atheist blast in the streets with fire hoses. So do we back a little bit of sympathy. Does that get in our way, but it would be nice to think we get sympathy. I think we would get sympathy, but for the extreme, very bizarre idea that you need to believe in a higher power in order to be good, and this rather dramatically shows itself in the fact I don't mind whether it's the wrong God right as long as any God will do, view morality, yeah when you
think of anyone who currently is spending a great deal time in church are dedicating a big portion of their life to their chosen religion. All then currently would look back on the Greeks in just laugh at the notion of Zeus and someone taking a chariot and rising the sun and that be is very laughable and dismissible. And yet that same lens can't really be applied to their own. That's right! I've sometimes asked ancient historians in my college at Oxford Weather the Greeks really did believe in their gods, and the answer seems to be yes, or at least they were sacrificed to them and they would pray to them and they would attribute Miss four, or fortune to them right whether they really believe there was a god called Helios who actually got up in the morning and drove his chariot across the sky. I find that actually pretty hard
Eve, especially when you consider that simultaneous to that you're, seeing the birth of democracy, the birth of geometry, your scene, like enormous leaps forward in the found in what is now science yeah, yes of it, whether Plato and Aristotle really believed. In I mean they talked about the gods. but I suspect it may be somewhat in the same sort of way as Einstein yeah because I didn't believe in God, but he used God language as a kind of metaphor for that which we do understands. So when Socrates said something like do: morals come from the gods, orders gods come to the or, if it was yeah are you ready meant the gods of whether he was just using kind of language that his audience would understand? Yeah. I completely agree with that. It is funny because you'll see people co, Opt Einstein quotes to serve whatever ends the have right. I would like to
but I can shake Einstein and say: why did you do that? Handing people on a plate yeah they what they desperately wanted to hear But do you think he just maybe had a broader global view of like that's, not the thing. I need to disrupt right now. That's not the hill I'm going to die on, so I'm just going to kind of play, cater patronize the masses. I haven't read enough to know. I think, maybe times were different and maybe didn't actually occur to him- that it said that, although he did get very annoyed at times when he would say I do not believe in a personal god bless it's a over and over again he did actually get quite irritated sometimes, but I think he only had himself to blame yeah now back to Rvca growing up. There were you in a city or what kind of environment where you went to the city, and that is how they were in the cities. It was very primitive in summer Sex and we have no electric light. We had. No indoor plumbing. On the other hand, we had lots of servants. Ok
and so it was sort of curious mixers. I spent like going back one hundred years ah so, where your memories mostly just like going to school and well catching buses. Is beautiful flowers yeah, but I didn't see control, arms or anything like that right, He I just go. If a guy grows up in Africa, not shocking to me that he ends up with that, an interest in zoology and evolution every nice. To think that I don't, I don't think, that's, unfortunately, the truth, my father was a biologist, so I later on. When we moved to England, I think he taught me to think like a scientist and think like a biologist, but no the african childhood was just itself. It didn't really feed it. I think to what I later became in a big way, and did you have any awareness that you were an expat or living in a country that I've not your origin, was something you
Just so I left when I was seven, so I not sure that unless I was very precocious I of thought in those right 'cause, you're realities is your reality right, you kind of take it out, yeah its value when you're young. Yes, yes, oh you moved. New England, at seven or eight, depending on whether I believe your what's written about you know. I had my eighth birthday on the ship. No kidding said that, but it's true, and so Your father had served in World WAR two and then he inherited in a state. That's right in one thousand nine hundred and forty six, he inherited it, but assume that he would never actually live there. It was tenanted and the lady who was the tenant died Actually, while we were on the ship and he may perhaps on your birthday. And my parents were greeted with the news that she had died and they then had to make a decision whether to go back to Africa, which they wanted to do Julie agonizing, I think they decided they would stay. My mother has suffered
live from malaria and almost died, and I think that was another would reason for not getting back yeah but the family lawyer and both their parents. But my sets of grandparents strongly advised them to go back to Africa, and they did they didn't take that advice they actually found the plates. It hadn't been found for along I probably yeah, my father made quite a success of it as a proper commercial from these states get passed down in a lot of people live quite poor in these amazing estates, in just everything is spent on me chaining them in it can be a real burden to inherit. Well, that's true. I mean the way the state, but rather give a false impression. It's not a big state like okay do Quebec or something it's a just. A I've got Downton Abbey plane in my head, just honest with that so wrong. That is the only about two hundred fifty eight, because and in the home wasn't rages on it that that that is a big age house which was a but
Actually the family lawyer advised us to pull that down right in my parents didn't actually touch into flats apartment, and they specialized in english people. British people coming back on leave the colonial service, so was constantly filled with people from Africa and India and Burma and places is like a decompression chamber and entry back into England. Yes, they had to have been intoxicated with notion of being out. That's like people who went westerly here or anything else right is a very adventurous lifestyle ice. Close. Yes, but because it was very much government regulated it, but they were not. Plan is in that sense that the the earlier people went out to farm the settlers. They were quite different. They were more like pioneers, but my parents were not. They were government servants and the people they mixed with the government's evidence right. So they were, they were not part of the
so Happy Valley a crowd, but they knew some of that crowd, and you were raised christian, In the sense that I went to christian schools, it was the difficult not to write, but it was Anglican in- and I would imagine in park's father- was into science in biology, a good relationship with him. Did you want him to be proud of you? And yes, I have a good relationship with him. He was a botanist, so he what about wild flowers in you, the letter names, my sister and I love to hear the latin names of all the flowers they didn't remember them necessarily but yeah children like to hear long words, they don't know the meaning of. I may be wrong about that. Absolutely will think. I'm Xp Allah, docious yeah super calla super calla, fragile. Everyone loves that word. That means nothing, but it's so long now. I would engine when you were being educated, you are probably new Latin or you do were you and I did lesson for yes, it doesn't mean. I knew it
I think it's good or bad. That they've abandoned that. I think it's good to learn languages a time would be probably better spent. Learning french and german somewhere. You could go use it yeah. Yes, I mean people say that as it is good for learning all romance languages and no doubt it is, but I suspect that any romance language would serve. That purpose in Spanish would be good for learning. Italian and french in French would be good. any italian, spanish and so on yeah. So a romance language would be a very good idea. A germanic language would be a very good idea. I am ashamed of the british and that's the american- and we we we- and that is we english speakers are so bad at languages, yeah, yeah and when I go to places like HOLLAND and Scandinavia, and even bus drivers and bartenders speak perfect. English yeah I'll get real. Judgmental of us and I'll feel pretty bad about the whole ordeal. And then I then another side of my brain goes. That's just the privilege of
demonic society. If Germans were the hegemonic society, they probably won't know any other language. Do you think maybe some other phone to be true. I think that is that I don't think we're shooting your people in general. Doesn't that shows itself, though, in in our era? That's the thing we don't need to that. I had a colleague when it when I said I was trying to learn German he's at you don't want to do. That is only encourages them up. I never! I never bought into that. What I do think is that the hegemonic effect you describe shows itself in the fact that people in HOLLAND and Scandinavia a FED, a diet of and Cricket on british films, for example, which they watch all the time and they don't have a dub in culture. They have a subtitle culture, right in the music too, yes, music, too, and so they're constantly exposed to English, whereas in Britain there's an election in France say and
we get on the news, the candidates making speeches we get about two words of their speech, which is faded out, and then we get the voice of of an interpreter o okay, now it's not something we never hit, is don't subtitles so never hear the other language is the same week. I happened to meet socially the head the BBC and the head of Channel four, which is one of our major, independent broadcasting channels, and I made this point to both of them. Why did we subtitle news for this reason, yeah and both of them said the same thing they said. Oh, we never thought of that. They still didn't do anything about it. It's not true, true dubbing, as it's not lip synched, it's just write a voiceover. Yes, this kind of parallels perfectly latin that obsession with maintaining that language. You know this right, We have for it this coincide too. With the Bible right something happen, in humans, we start really holding old, taxed and
things, but we put it on a pedestal and you see it politically here in our country with the constitution. Here is a document that was specifically designed to be changed as new as in new problems, arose and yet there's this revere for in this the worship of it that now it's it's becoming canonize or something is becoming like the Bible. That's a very good point. Yes, I appreciate the Bible as literature like I appreciate Shakespeare I think it's true that you can't really hold your as a high level cultivated english speaker. Unless you can take your allusions to things like the Bible and Shakespeare appreciate but your point about the constitution is interesting. It does seem to have uh, not american, but I was taught carefully here. It does seem to have acquired sort of status of holy,
or even the founding fathers when he was the founding father, yet almost as if they were a different species of human that exist in that we don't possibly within three hundred million people have forty equal. intelligent humans here that could yes, on the other, we now have the Supreme Court, which seems to do the opposite, I mean they pay lip service to the constitution that they seem to do drop it. If, if fears of of the newest additions to the Supreme Court and realized, they do seem to have an ability to interpret it in ways that they would have the founding father spread spinning in their grave. But again I think that is a problem of worshipping this document. Why does it require interpretation by somebody? Why does someone in modern times have to tell me what that document really meant when it said to bear arms? and that is the same thing with religion and one of them things have been confused about religion. Is you guys have a book, there's no
This there's no secret door. So if there is a text that everyone can read, why is a guy in a robe have a better understanding of that text? To me, it's a physical thing, we could all read write in my question about scripture biblical scripture is rather more do you realize who wrote it I mean there's. Nobody is reason to think they were anything other than simple goat herds and camel herders yeah there is, I think they had any knowledge or wisdom or photographic memory, of sorts? Yes, I regular you say that we were having a conversation. Let's say: there's eight of us gathered and we talked for two hours and I say now imagine in thirty, It's you're asked to recite everything we talked about for two hours, what it was your best guess of what percentage you would get accurate. You know now you're talking about someone memorizing these chapters. Yes in the new testament, which is relatively recent, I mean the oldest gospel which is Mark, was not written until thirty, five or forty years after Jesus is dead.
and all that time it's done by word of mouth. Yes, it's a forty year game of telephone. Exactly I mean, I think, that exact analogy in my latest book, largely, I won't argue with people anymore, 'cause, I'm forty four. I have two kids and I don't have time, but with that said there are, layers right so sometimes I'll go. I can accept that you believe in God, if you feel something in your heart, I'm not going to try to challenge that. That's a waste of my energy there's no reason for me to do that, but at least acknowledged that the thing you believe in did go through a human filter. You must at least acknowledge that Jesus Christ did not sit down with a quill and write out the Bible. I think, It might be one of the most powerful ways of getting at them. I don't know what they think who they think actually wrote that have different books of the Bible, but there was nothing special about if they knew that mark is the oldest gospel and market.
It doesn't mention many of the most precious things like the Christmas story of the resurrection. That sort of thing- and it's really obvious that these that it's made out to be like retelling the plot of Jurassic Park and leaving out the dinosaurs, six hours and museum parks, and it will go there. Yes, where's my attitude to Jurassic Park, as they should have left out the humans, a yes, the well. Interestingly, I heard when you're talking to SAM, that you're Anti radic Katie Mosquitoes, but pro bring back dinosaurs. So I love that you're, so you're kind of on both sides of the argument. When you a lot of dinosaurs me too well, I more interested in bringing back woolly mammoths, for whatever reason I just it's just more plausible, I mean there's actually a sporting chance of doing that. Yes, I doubt it could ever bring back dinosaurs, Yes, that birds are dinosaurs of after men yes and that's a new thing when I was a kid of course, all my national geographic books had them in a kind of a reptilian scale.
And now now, all I'm looking at newer books for my children and their feathered, happen in my lifetime. Yes, that's true, but quite apart from whether dinosaurs with feathered, but it's closer to some dinosaurs then there's dinosaurs are to other dinosaurs, and so they simply are dinosaurs rights they spring from the middle of the dinosaurs, in other words, right, So do you think 'cause you're, saying if you approach with so who wrote that that's a very logical approach. Do you think they care? because their operating in a very emotional headspace when their deal their religion and God and morals, and all of these things is not. Logical, I think you're right, and what worries me more is that that anti logical point of view is becoming respectable Academics are even saying things like what feels right to you is your kind of truth thing as objective truth and that I think, is very pernicious, indeed dangerous. Yeah to that
point, even you as someone who yourself to empirical data object, of analysis, replicate rible things also recognize that there an end Tom Uncle truth of what happens in this room right now, but now, one of the eight of us here will have that same truth. An hour from now conversation has a reality to it, It's known if there was an anatomical record of this right according ones and zeros of this whole exchange? That would be reality, but at some point has to be observed and taken in by you and I a human healing- just mean We would have a different memory of it. Yes, oh well, they'll have uh Different memory of your recording it well but even when someone listens to it. Yes, so the recording is objective, and that is a real. That is true. It will then go through this filter. The human ear for the listener in an oh really before it gets to any part of the brain.
where they can store it. As fact, it can't not go through these filters right these cultural filters. Is conversation, sounds different in Ireland than it does in Madrid. For many reasons right, do you recognize that there are facts and there is truth, but that there isn't anyone on earth to observe that fact and truth without it going through their fill, one of the most interesting talks. We've just listen to at the psych on conference, which is a conference that the cf either center for inquiry runs every year in LAS Vegas was by Jeff Hawkins. The inventor of the palm pilot and Jeff Hawkins made a point which I've long believed, which is that what we actually see and hear and feel is a model in the head. We construct our own model in the head and what comes in the senses sense, data adjusts and alters, updates the model
the motor is continually updated, so that does conform to reality, but never as your model will be different from mine. Everybody in this room, with their own model of reality and but most persuasive evidence. For this point of view, I think, is visual illusions. Things like the Necker Cube and the devil's tuning fork where there are two alternative ways of seeing the reality and the brain as it were pulled out of its filing cabinet each two internal models that fit the data and alternates between them right and that's just evidence for the fact that we are seeing and hearing and feeling a model of the world and our model of the world is, the visual in that's model of the world is updated by echoes, but I suspect actually that it Yes, he did the model, maybe rather similar to a visual model right or is it all this all five rounds of factor one, even though the bats order entry model is a
they should buy echoes on visual models updated by light, but the model is shouldn't, buy darwinian natural selection to be the most useful sort of model to have in order to navigate the world to survive and survive in that model will be probably wrong. the same for a batch as it is for us or for as well as a which is doing the same nothing to about, but by date, set up by night. So I find this very plausible. This idea. that what we see or hear is a model of reality and it may be different for all of us in this room you can. Is the thing to bring it into a kind of a more concrete current example where I, ain't find myself straddling the line so modern, rules that time seemed to really value facts, and there will be quick to point out that the right is using alternative facts or these many catch phrases that we have for what Trump says. news, fake news, all these things and I'm caught between
Yes, I am someone who studied science and loves it, also someone who's married and has children and recognizes there. Is this whole other truth, which is the emotional experience on planet earth, and I just imagine even the most objective person still has this layer of sauce or that is emotional in in very valuable, and that often when I watch these Bates on the left, and the right, I believe, will both Hides are actually making valid points, ones, making an emotional point ones, making a logical point, and I don't think it's great to dismiss either of those? So let's just take for a create example, you know Chickens are over running America. Well, we have a ton of data on the left that we could say will know the net migrations down. That's not of interest to people. We could they're not staying there returning home, we could say they commit less crimes.
natural born citizens that has no effect. What we're not addressing is like that these people, this contingency, has a fever. It's a real fear It's a fear that needs addressing, and it's not probably going to be addressed by this data. We keep, throwing at them regularly fighting against the binary opposition between no no there's just reality and facts and science ant versus there. You know no, it's just if it feels right. It is right. I don't agree with that either, but so often all these choices feel very bionaire e, when I think in fact, it's quite often like nature and nurture at best you're. Looking at what percentage. It is yes well another of the talks at the center for inquiry conference, which has been to made a fascinating distinction, is, I think, related to what you're saying two ways in which we can get false ideas, and we obviously have bombarded with false ideas at the moment in this country.
He called them a good lawyer and the bad philosopher and the good will and knows the conclusion he wants to come to. But ok, so lawyer, he's paid for that he's paid to be a prosecutor or defendant. But the good lawyer applies to anybody who for tribal reasons, for reasons of loyalty to Democrat or republic. Whatever it is knows, the conclusion he wants to come too isn't conscious, but you have a conclusion you want. You intend on to a new confirmation, bias is right at home with him yeah, you force the facts to fit. The conclusion yeah that you for ideological reasons, kind of know, is true, so that's what he calls the good lawyer method of getting to a fallacy. The bad philosopher is he had a cartoon of Homer Simpson for the the bad philosopher is somebody who sincerely wants to get at the truth, but is a poor thinker, a poor, reasoner and so gets to the full set by the almost the opposite direction.
a good lawyer. I found that very illuminating talk. Yes, you must be familiar Jonathan Heights work, exactly as they get to mention that yes, yeah, because that when I listen to him, I feel like. I really believed him in in. I might be simple find his point of view, but he was a. In general, as I remember it that we as individuals are just horrendous Lee subjective, we're really not good at discovering any truth. Because to your point, we all suffer from confirmation bias. You run these morality. experiments about the brother, sister having sex on a vacation and people just just keep lean another reason it might be a moral at it What he says is that, although we can't be very objective, we can design systems that are quite objective I tend to really agree with that. I do too the scientific
so this design to wash out the subjective, biases and sometimes sort of kicking and screaming we're forced to agree with something, because the science shows that it's, that is the case, peer review, replication of experiments, double blind. Als all that sort of thing which is specifically designed to remove subjective confirmation bias? Yes, I accept everything you know and you believe in and you study, but are you curious why you even study that is that a question that you ask yourself if you ever asked yourself, why was I drawn to illusionary biology, what was going to be comforting about that for me about comforting sure
I think, to myself how different my life would have beaten if anything a bit and a tiny little bit little things had changed. Aha, or would there be some kind of magnetic pull back to the course that I eventually took Robert Frost's famous poem, the path not taken? I'm inclined to think that the slightest change in one's past, not anything like big, like if you hadn't met a certain has no later became your wife, something really important like that, but just if you had just sneeze. At a certain moment, your life would be totally different. Yes and I, dramatize this by saying, if that particular dinosaur had not sneezed at a certain lived in the cretaceous period. None of us would be here because he sneezed he failed to eat the ancestor of all of us. Sneeze is a good way to dramatize. It 'cause a trivial event. Yes, if Adolf Hitler's father had happened to sneeze at a moment when some answer- yeah that Hitler was about to be conceived haha and therefore,
a different sperm got into the eggs for sure we would never have had Hitler, but MRS Hitler sneezed on the first date. Mister Hitler wasn't interested in her any longer that that kind of stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare we are supported by me and Eddie and Idiom idiom me undies, underneath the Indian, be young knees yesterday on our airplane you know ones I was wearing, which my spoke how do we, I wore Halloween ones, leading up to the day you did that I did. I was meet me on these me scary, panties off yesterday, and I was in and out of the airplane back bathroom so much with the girls 'cause, you gotta, take him in there
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is it true that I was accused of being the one year left exam. This cold Steven rose in Britain who Morris accused John Maynard Smith at me, of course things is such a dumb. They said what should we have done falsified the equations actually most of the critics, on those lines criticized the book, having read it by title only they didn't that, Yeah selfish is a very triggering word for people. Isn't it yeah? That's the thing we all universal er were terrified to acknowledge. The point about the book is that selfish genes give rise to altruistic individuals, says just the opposite of that tag, right and you said on on SAM's podcast that in retrospect you wish you had titled the book when I've often adjusted. Maybe the immortal gene, the immortal GS that would have been less triggering for peoples triggering and also more poetic. I mean it probably would have been better. I think the editor of ACT, Oxford University press was adamant that had to be the selfish gene and he still says that haha now
wouldn't have suggested Thatcher Reagan, but I would I would have suggested, is you. After achieving a masters and a doctor in philosophy and starting to do tons of research on zoology, blue Shinari biology, you took a professorship at Berkeley, yeah sixties Seven is sixty nine! Well, yes, I would they called the. I was in about twenty six at the time. I wouldn't call it a professorship. I was very honest, professor, is yeah, and at that time it was the height of the antiwar movement from Vietnam, and you were at the apex or epicenter of that movement, probably at Berkeley. Yes. Well, I mean I joined in all the demonstrations yeah. You win in in you protested and you are involved in that that actual would be more telling than the other thing in that you were witnessing real downside of groupthink group reaction. Yes, group fear, yes, that's true, yeah
Brazil. I love your book, I'm I'm! I'm a disciple of the book to use a bad term is possible, though, do you ever think? Oh yeah, I'm just a human too, and I too am subject to some information by it in perhaps that the As I said on intentionally or unintentionally, probably was in and a bit by this context. There was the Vietnam, war- and there was these things that happen in your life- I don't think the selfish gene was triggered by that interest in what was then left wing politics, I think, was triggered by the love of truth actually and the fact that there were at the time several popular science books, which would deeply misconceived because they thought that so in your natural selection worked at the level of the group right so Conrad Lawrence, for example, in his book on aggression. He explained the fact that animal aggression
more restrained than it might otherwise be Becaus. Groups of animals that had aggressive individuals were more likely to go extinct now. That's just plain wrong That's an under Winnie an idea. He didn't understand, Darwinism, his Nobel Prize Winning Biologist, totally misunderstood darwinian natural selection, so my motivation writing itself receivers to Korea. people like him and he was the only one in general, we think of evolution. As being you have one hundred animals in ones born with a mutation in that mutation is blue eyes. Let's say an the rest have dark eyes and for whatever reason, the predator can see the dark eyes better, so the one with blue eyes is going to probably reproduce more often than the ones that are being killed. So that's Slowly, change the ratio in the population of animals bring the blue eyes right. It doesn't happen immediately. I mean it's more that sexual reproduction
tributes jeans around among the population. So this constantly shuffling of genes, but because of sex and number surviving better than others. Mutation is the sort of original source that fee variation in that feeds new jeans into the population, but sex then distributes them around. Darwin looked at the level of the individual. He was vaguely aware that there was something like heredity. We would concentrated. He was vaguely aware that like begets like, but there was no conception, then of jeans, as particulate is that an animal either has doesn't have Mendel, who was a contemporary of Darwin, roughly introduced the yeah that jeans are all or none things you ever have one or you don't have one right. So any particular gene in you. came from one and only one of your parents, one and
Only one of your grandparents wanted only one of your great grandparents, so each one of us is like a deck of cards, that's been shuffled in each generation and every one of those cards can be traced to particular ancestor. Number of generations back. It comes from one particular ancestor, which is a remarkable thought in a way so jeans. potentially immortal cause. They come down the generations and what I introduced with the kind of poetic language that immortal jeans cooperatively with each other construct bodies which are temporary mortal? What I call survival machines for the jeans that built them. So what really matters in that role? Selection? This is what I was responsible for. Promulgate, Ing
What really matters in natural selection is the survival of genes versus other genes down many many generations and bodies nearly throwaway survival machines, temporary vehicles, which the genes build for themselves as house to live in to carry them around and if the body dies. The body is eaten by a lion, all the jeans inside it parish and so any gene that makes an antelope say ever so slightly more likely to escape from lines run faster, have sharper percent sold with anything like that on average over many generations, statistically the jeans that come down through the generations. Well with the genes that make antelopes good at getting away.
Lines. On the other hand, in the lawn gene pool, there will be the jeans that make lions good at catching antelopes and in the case of altruism its particular case, which I dealt with rather fully in the selfish gene jeans that make bodies care for other bodies that are likely to contain the same jeans survive in cause copies of themselves. survive in the body that they help save right, so any popular say one hundred member population of some species, presumably the ton of them- are sharing tons of the same games right. Yes, yeah 'cause. It was kind of a paradox for people doing Ethology's on animals right. They would see this behavior will be at a chimpanzee that would do the holler. For you know, leopard puts him or herself in Jeopardy
discovered by the leopard, but then the whole group gets to a that's right. That kind of thing is one of the third of test cases, the case of say a bird bird, giving an alarm call because they see a hawk. Well, if the birds are feeding us, flock on the on the ground. They are a flock for a good reason. You stay in a flock for a good reason, which is you get safety in numbers, the bigger the flock here in the less likely it is that when the predator comes you'll, be the one he catches. They want to stay in the flock another center, hopefully right here right back in the selfish. Yes, on the other hand, you will be better off in a tree, the down on the ground? You want to move up into the tree, You don't to be the only one that was up into the tree because then you're out of the flock and and and he's, and he picks on you because you're the odd one out write. What you want is to get into the tree but make sure everyone else does too
uh huh, so the alarm call on the one had to it and altruistic called on Thursday. It's also a selfish act because you're trying to make your rent and manipulate that the entire flock into surrounding you, or is it keep surrounding and yet get up into the tree yeah? So that's. The kind of logic which we were using at that time is still do use to explain things like alarm calls. Conrad Lawrence would probably have said a species that has altruistic individuals that give alarm calls is less likely to go extinct and that's just wrong as I, as I said that What it's about the natural selection is about differential survival within a species non between species right and what is new about it, as you're saying is looking at the jeans and not the individual, and then other evolutionary biologists have considered
a pocket of human beings on planet earth and how they proliferated and then trying to it. But you in general are your or maybe not even in general, you are blatantly you don't believe and group dial in did on the whole stick to the level of the individual. There is a place in the descent of man when he talks about group survival and that's okay. I mean group survival may be important, yeah, but it's not the main driving force that makes animals the shape that they are, it might occasionally be. yeah in in in generally right, when even these examples you're giving mostly they exhibit themselves among insects and then in humans. You know those kind of the two pockets were most explaining like honey bees and yes, the extremes of social behavior, see in certain insects in the home in October and in the termites in the as bees and wasps, which of time an opera and termites which amount and humans? Yes,
and if you by chance, read sapiens or do you like you've, Harari, yes, yeah, and so you know, I don't have a horse in any race. So I'm free to like just entertain all these thoughts and it's not again any position I have, but the thing that does. and compelling- is that if a group of Humans- believe in this concept of money. They could then, each other in co, mingled peacefully, because they both believe in this myth, and have some incentive to get along and that that in turn could have upped Your survival or could it you your yes yeah? I think I think, error idea more as a sociological thing now the darwinian idea. I got you, I think it's important. I think it's probably true yeah and you could apply to religion as well. You can say that a group of people, all of whom believe in the same God, have a certain coherence social unity, which benefits the whole society and
This study as a whole might will conquer my twelve actually survive better than another soc, either with no God or with a different kind of that's not really a darwinian theory, but it could be important. Nevertheless, yeah because I think where I'm going with this is, we have come to recognize a lot of things that served us well for a long period of time that no longer serve us. The simplest example is we should eat as much fruit on a tree in bloom, as we can, because that's a temporary condition, and we should load up on calories, will now there's seven hundred eleven, a mile from everyone's house, we probably shouldn't load up on those calories every time you know, there's all kinds of things that we should attempt to trans send, and I guess I'm of the opinion that okay, ethnology in that religion may have been part of our evolution and that we, I even have some free its position to to believe in that I don't mind allergy Matt and then
in in now, we must transcend it in the same way, we we can't eat as much food as we want. We can't have. You know, there's a bunch of things we very good way of putting it. I mean I, I think, that's quite right yeah. So what is it about? does that makes us so susceptible to it? You know, is it that passed that you know is it when we selected at any level to be predisposed to buy into that 'cause, it seems pretty universal people buy into that. Yes, I think it will give a psychological sort of explanation and say that people now want to explain the origins of that originally invented origin. Myth or somebody doesn't becomes part of the story that they could get told around. The campfire and often it's an origin myth about their own tribe and they're all the rest of the world. I don't count yeah Dave, the one truth. Yes, it's a bit different from a darwinian
Very one of them say something like natural selection, favored individuals who have some kind of psychological predisposition, which manifested itself as religion, the right cultural conditions, says something like it had been a tendency to obey orders to tell it also seems like an extension of us being social animals that have a higher are okay, so something like obeying the king yeah, like we we're kind of designed to respect an alpha and this thing becomes the ultimate alpha that maybe hoping will exert justice on this one you have to deal with. Yes, I think they're, all sorts of reasons. Why natural selection might have favored in our wild ancestors a tendency to say it's a good idea to obey the authority of the other tribal elders, maybe if your child, where you're vulnerable and adults, parents etc, have a wisdom which may say
life yeah, the ones who maybe listen to Gun Kelly. I mean that's right, I mean if you disobey or if you just if you disbelieve what your parents tell you, then you may die, you may fall over a cliff or beaten by a lion or something eat those berries. They told you were poison exactly exactly so I you could say something like if the while ancestors of the equivalent of the center for inquiries at night, everyone out test out and only just believe, you're done. I see those berries yeah they die, aha and so being gullible in that sense probably did have survival value and then that translated itself to being gullible about gods and I'm just superstitious Rituals and the child brain would not have any means of distinguishing the sensible advice like don't eat those berries from the stupid. If I smoke with a child, know if the child knew there'd, be no reason to have the rule that says: listen to your parents, so they built a track record
Now. This is the twelfth thing they tell you and they had a pretty good track record yeah. You should climb a pine on that and then it gets past. I've read rated to generation, because you believe what your parents tell you. They believe what their name, your grandparents tell you, they've lived with their parents, tell you and so on, it's very hard to break that cycle one. 'cause, I most keen on doing is trying to break that daisy chain effect from parent to child grandchild. If only we could somehow stop this cycle of inheritance non magic inheritance actually look at the the reason. People believe what they do with the religion. They believe is almost always the religion of their parents and grandparents, and they know perfectly well that if they lived in Pakistan, they'd never completed different set of beliefs, yes, and yet they still go on believing in their own, as in this country, maybe christian religion, Becaus
childhood indoctrination is an immensely powerful force mother. My great ambitions is to try to persuade people to stop indoctrinating children in that, yet so Brett Weinstein was in here, and he was talking about. He has a term for that right where, where this flawed thinking does have a beneficial result in those are sometimes the hardest paradigms to break, because even though there may be- steeped in error. They have this outcome. That appears to confirm the theory. I forget the name he gave that, but those to be particularly hard things to break when people the result people are getting is the desired. even though it's not due to the thing they think it's due to. That makes sense. Yes, you have the Richard Dawkins Foundation for reason and science, why is it important? What are the stakes that we currently you'd? Think back through time? Of course you have their crews, AIDS which are insane in and you have putting Galileo in jail, there's all these measurable ways that religion,
load down science or imprisoned, or resulted in so many deaths and so many wars. But what currently are the state and why is it a week? Okay and then maybe I could answer that best buy, say we. We we just merged with the center for Inquiry's Richard Dawkins Foundation as much okay, the center for inquiry, and so, if I tell you about some of the things that let doing. I would love to hear that I mean what one that's dear to my heart is teacher Institute for evolutionary Science, which is teaching teachers, how to teach evolution, and this is very important. Becaus middle school teachers especially are not well equipped to fend off the hostility that they get from parents from school boards from headteacher, sometimes from children. Even who have been brainwashed.
into not believing in the evolution of actually stop up their ears when evolution comes up in some science class, so we have this program called ties. Teaches you revisionist sons, which is holding workshops for middle school teachers all over the country is not doing it in all fifty states to teach them how to teach evolution right. That's one! That's very close to my heart and another of the things we're doing is the translation project, which again is dear to my heart. This is translating science books and actually the going to resume several of my books into the languages of Islam. Arabic do Farsi and Indonesian
so we're translating my books into those languages for downloadable pdfs. These are free, so I'm waiving all rights to royalties of that kind of thing yeah, and what we're hoping is that we can use the internet to educate people in countries like Pakistan, where their education system is holy, Islam dominated get in there and teach about science and about atheism actually answer it's another project which is going great at the moment, and I think about four or five of my books have already been translated and there will be more and we hope to get other well for as much as we rag on the internet here and talk about the destruction that social media is doing. There's stories like that which is traditionally for you to get a book or thousands of books into a theocracy is going to be nearly impossible. Let me tell you not
as millions before we even started the project that inspired us was the fact that somebody produced a bootleg translation of the God delusion into Arabic. Which has been downloaded thirteen million times, arabic translation downloaded thirteen million times, wow that inspired us to set up the translation. project. Is that a scary proposition the notion that someone's going to translate? That is there a bit of you? That's like there's just no way it's going to be the exact thing I said: do you have any anxiety over that? I do, and I've got horror stories about. Translations, yes, but I try to think of ways of circumventing that. So that's another one. Another project we have is goals can a rescue again in the largely in the islamic world there
people in the world, I think it's islamic in islamic countries actually to to be an atheist, is a sentence of death to be a public atheist to be there blogger in in places like Pakistan in places like Bangladesh, they have literally been killed. Two worst crime, then being an atheist and saying so on the internet, so secular rescue is a sort of underground railroad for rescuing people whose lives are threatened with types of machete wielding zealots an so we do things like get visas for them pay their airfares get them safe passage island in asylum too, and large numbers of such people have so far been saved and that's another. important, that's a I I would have to imagine for you. I just on a personal level that has to be one of the most rewarding aspects to meet someone you've helped get to safety. Is that
unbelievably rewarding true, that's very true. I also feel advanced are awarded when people tell me that my books have changed their life in my getting in really enormously Gratis. number of those yeah and now is there? The correlation I would assume there is between education double standard of living and all that does that mapping correlate is as country gets. More does wealth? Is yeah come more and more secular. There's, there's research on this, including that of Gregory Paul. You might have him on. Actually, ok he's looked at comparing countries and comparing states within the United States, looking at the correlation between religiosity and social welfare in the general sense in the month, basic needs being met, evolving met a health care looking off to the elderly, that kind of thing, and the more social welfare there is, as in say the scandinavian countries, the less religion there is
yes, vice versa. Yes, I can see the angle you're taking, which is fantastic, and I also see another It'll, be me know in every way possible elevating those areas in a direction that x the more open to that. Yes, yeah. Okay, so I'm just full blown atheist, I'm very comfortable with not knowing them any missed, is that we don't know I'm ok with that. I'm ok that we don't know a ton of stuff I've two spun out about. Where do we come from? because any answer I get bleeds me too. Okay! Well, where the big Bang, what was before the big bang, I'm definitely limited in how I comprehend everything in a life death cycle. None of that still is caused me to even be waited to embrace God. As an answer 'cause then I have the same question: where did he come from her? She come from. the one recently that has me a little spun out and I just wanted to know. If you take his death, I'm actually more curious. Why is it that
no animal as ever mutated to stay alive forever. If might so is, can make a perfect replica of itself. It is in theory, possible that some animal at midlife just makes perfect copies forever and lives forever. Impasses on its genes. There's trees that ten thousand years. Why is it We have no example. Mutation that led to some make very extended longevity. The idea of a survival machine for jeans. Imagine a gene that makes you live forever. Uhhuh, like you say, that's such a pretty conceivable but imagine a gene.
which makes you more likely to survive when your young men say, makes you swift or makes you sexually attractive when you're young and and makes you less attractive or less likely to survive when you're old and to begin with they're, not talking about aging. We just talking about the fact that the longer you live the more like he ought to be hit by a truck or something right now, let's stick to sexually attractive, because that's easy to deal with again the bases sexually attractive when you're young, like a peacock, inevitably makes you more like to die because the predators- yes yeah, yes, but doesn't matter because the genes that make you sexually attractive get pasta home. Now, a rival gene that makes you unattractive
live a long time doesn't have the same chances of getting passed on to future generations. Six difference that was going to say it. Yes in females, unless they again were somehow arrested at twenty three in ST fertile forever. It would not be incentivized to hands, but a male okay. Well, you probably noticed that p hands are less brightly. Colored then peacocks p hands on built for survival, peacocks of built to get a mate to guesstimate and leave tons of genes behind and then die in there. Some of them with literally do dies soon as they reproduced and that's it one way very sensible thing to do, because it means that that putting absolutely everything into one great big explosive blast of reproduction other
was due to different way. Other animals do indeed put more effort into surviving and reproducing year after year after year, but still the same forces are operating the same forces, a saying anything you can do to survive when you are young and hard all day before that another another way. Why do we dive old age genes that make you die? Take cancer, a gene that makes you get cancer when your ten we'll never get reproduced Brian. This gives you cancer when you're twenty we'll get reproduced somewhat a few years. Yes, a gene that gives you cancer when you're eighty we'll get reproduced like crazy. When it we probably all descended from people who got
so when they were eighty yeah, we'll all descended from people who did not get cancer before they reproduced, yes and similarly didn't get the in my lan and didn't die for all sorts of other reasons. We all descended from ancestors who survived long enough to reproduce and surviving for a very long time is. We may occasionally have had an ancestor who reproduced at the age of eighty Clint Eastwood's. Will he be in okay out liars in mostly with with descended from all that big that that that the big part of that then Is it the sexual selection right? Well, I chose that subjective example actually, actually surviving long enough to reproduce but the older you are, the more the chances are you've reproduced already, and then you can die right to get to talk with you. is incredible. I've been following you on twitter and defending you in some of your wars over the years, and
you're just an amazing human being, and I love the work. Your doing. That's very gracious! Thank you baby. Yes, I hope we talk again soon, stay tuned for more armchair chair. If you dare, we supported by key. We. These are the funnest things to build with your kids. They come in a box, it's got all the ins. Actions that even the little ones can follow printed pictures to help them and the best part is you: do it together? You learn a ton about steam steam, of course, is science. Technology engineering are in math. they are designed by experts and tested by kids. So there's no need to research or worry about gathering all the supplies. Everything you would need shows up in a monthly. Delivery we get him into. leave them being a sponsored by the way yeah yeah mom just orders, those we built the other day a projectile. This thing you crank to back you
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supported by Everly. Well, I love Everly well because money than any of us, many many, so many are wondering what the hell were allergic to cats. We don't have time to go down to get lab tests and results, and all that see a doctor get a referral. All this b s Everly was solved this with amazing at home wellness tests that help you better understand your health. Now I just did it in it's in the mail and I can't wait to find out which one did you do: allergies to food which again I've just been throwing darts at a dartboard and then thyroid. That's the one that you did as well right now we're dying to know. If our I think your metabolism is cooking unit. Yes, 'cause you eat sceptical, you eat a pretty liberal diet. You know mostly what you want. You have good portion control, but you're fit as a fiddle. That's true, but my energies, low energies, Lowe's, 'cause, you're eating too much junk food. I really well offers more than thirty different at home, lab tech.
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the interesting conversation and no ones going to here in both about a t shirt about glasses, about contacts yeah, it's all flushed down the toilet, so God Chris with these podcast not when you have a policy of a b r which knows inside now fact, I'm gonna make you a tattoo that, on your wrist this year, is a new year's resolution of the sequences, usually intro sponsors factor yeah, but seemed obvious. We were in a fact check mode really connect the wild. It was flying. Having that your headphones on the headphones of been one. No, no! You NI visual clues Jesus, yes, stop blaming me while, but if I can try to recreate the May, because wearing spectacles today, which you really took me by surprise and then come
find out why he Wah wears contacts which I didn't know, and you said you knew yeah. I said I I assume which is interesting assumption. Then you told me: everyone wears contact. Most people most can't be, are wearing tax. I need some stats most eyes deteriorate, but you're tune, Rob's twelve, I mean I expect, come to go downhill, but maybe they go to Forty now allow people get contacts and glasses in high school is when you find fifth grade, og is member. My blind friend, Callie yeah, argued, yeah legally blind friend Callie. She got them when she was three. Oh, my god, I think little kid
I thank you. More importantly, the headlines you've got a super cute shirt. All yes, you got Nashville this weekend yeah and it has a new deal. Lady on it. That's why you like from the world famous beauties, honky, Tonk bar it's very cold and black and gold, which are my official colors. I really I mean so. How does Yeah obviously was thinking of you when I bought this because there's a naked lady on and his land, black and gold, I urge everyone to they have an official color scheme. Do you have one no No, I don't think so. No, ok! Well, I have one black and gold which is talking about it and I'm accumulate more things in black and gold, okay, a bundle, Jordan's yeah, Lincoln's, white gold, yeah, oh six, the goddess were on the Black and gold mission all watch button goal, ok, anyways, great black and gold shirt. You look great, thank you, yeah Did you get diagnosed with bad eyes? I was school when they turned. I think that the only
two tiny bit. There were three thousand and twenty, that's basically normal, but remember: then I got glasses and I was like. Oh, I don't like the way anything looks now so show our you could see all the So I took them off and I tried contact they were too hard for me to do your painful right. I warm once for a movie for six hours, and I said I can't do this. We gotta figure out yeah. I thought they were uncomfortable and they were hard for me to get in physically. Couldn't do it and then didn't really wear them ever again. Now that's all thing and then you'll wear them in the evening. If you've been drinking and you have to drive home well, not even bringing it just if it's dark out and every now and then I'll, wear it need to read a menu or something right. Sometimes, when we watch tv beer missing so much stuff, 'cause, ballin I'll point things
and they're pretty obvious and then you're like what I now. The reason is what they have a wine stain all over the front of their shirts. Everything is the remember I like that. I don't notice all these peoples imperfections. You think it's one of the things that's one of my great qualities, part like a part of your character, but I would argue it's just a physical limitation. You can't really take credit for it as a character. It's not it's not really the eyes like when you're talking about those tongues being too big. It's not good my eyes, I can't see their big tongue, but when you point out, I'm like ok, I guess you're right, but who cares well, obviously, who cares good for them more tongue more whatever, but I'm it's just an observation. Why is it different? Let me ask you this: why is it different to point out if someone is six foot, nine in a show, that's just their height versus their tongue seems to be one thousand eight hundred and twenty inches long. These are just we're just commenting on large body things right now why
because one thing you're pointing out because it's like, oh that's, weird because it's anomalous or not don't see not normal. That's not what I mean it's it's new! It's it's cheer interests, if someone six foot, eight on a reality. Show you go. Oh, my goodness that look at. Are you laughing? No, I'm not laughing at the tongue. Yes, you are. No! You think I was I mean I wasn't loving. I went, oh my god. That's a big tongue and then he's having a hard time at it. No, I didn't let my said he's having a hard time keeping it in his mouth. Exactly don't laugh making fun of him the same way as if the six foot, eight guy, walk through a door frame, and I always have a hard time getting through that door frame. Why is it different? Tell me, It is because we one thing you wouldn't want for yourself. The other things like sure. Fine windows is a some people are six eight. I think they love it and then I think there's some people are six. Eight that hate it sure. Now you know there's a difference.
I mean you're just trying to yeah. No, I mean well here's what I don't think, there's a difference in pointing out that someone is really tall or someone has a big tongue they're both the same observation. This is something that's far exceeds, one standard deviation, we're used to seeing it's the same thing that's being triggered, but one thing you're saying I don't like that. That's the implication. You didn't say it out loud that that is the input you put, that no don't tax your acting, so self righteous does not do you want to have a huge tongue in your mouth where you can really talk well hold on now the person was communicating proficiently. Well, you said it's hard for him to talk. I think it requires more effort yeah for the person, I think they're more conscious of key, in their mouth and you want that. No right, ask me if I want to be sixty eight too many things. He find out. I wouldn't want to be anything over six four. Never mentioning something. That's just like. Oh
hey that person's tall you're, not you're, always going crazy when we watch success. all do is talk about everyone's height. I'm persons, I being very short, no end in one of the gals being tall and one of the guys being told well in relation to the short guy. You know the cousin yeah worked out that he is inordinately small italian. I've commented on that. Ok, but you're, not saying it in a way. That's like. Oh, we can't get through or frame so tall is okay. Okay, you're, saying I was saying you and gross, but I asked well that you've interpreted as a subtext Am I wrong? Yes, going who grows, I enjoy it, I'm I'm I'm more delighted to see something different than I am to, see the same old status quo. Is it possible about this? Is it
But you misinterpreted my it's not. I don't think it is. I don't think it is because it's not just the tongue that Did you guys know things constantly and it's never about something you're never like. Well, actually, that's not true. You guys notice things. You like people as well, but we are on people's eyes even more to my point round feature so even more to my point that when you like something is not there Same tone is when you're talking about the tongue. Ok, ok we're talking about someone's beautiful eyes. Yes, yes, you're right, and when I look at when I'm talking with her beautiful eyes. Yes, I am. I would like to have those eyes, but this is the only point I'm making when I'm pointing out
the cousin Brad is six foot six. I don't want six foot six and you're not bothered by that. So that's all I'm saying is that when I'm pointing out things that are abnormally large butts, bewbs height tongue ears, nose what to me it's the all. It's it's all the same thing as height, so I guess maybe on asking you to do is get mad when I point out someone's how tall just to keep it consistent. Okay, I well. I can also stop vocalizing. My observations have too: I am not a fan: buy it, but you want me to admit my motivation. I do want you to. I do want you to it's. Not your intention is malicious, but when you say it, it's not out of interesting that snow at the tone. Oh 'cause. that's one thing: that's what you think you can deliver it more on you don't have to tone of what I mean you can keep doing.
You're doing and I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. Ok, which is not noticing, ok, great, ok, great! We can keep doing what we do. How is the broadcast news? fine, I just did a fun podcast, tell me call, and it's not about naturals. No, you wanted it to be about that neighbours, but it wasn't is about beauty. Skin care makeup, but we went Tangents you did. Did you tell him about your volcanic soap? I didn't even get there, scratch the surface of all your beauty too much to say I didn't get to say very much. Do you know a lot about products? I love Prod, yeah. Should you have a product review castle? That's what she said. That's what she has right, so she is a cast. She was saying I should talk about on my instagram. She said well, you said recently that my instagram is mysterious. She did say that yeah, that's kinda! Neat I like to have that yeah. I did you know I felt
there's 'cause? You talked about one product that I just purchased. That's too expensive yeah. Did she call you out for no? No, she didn't I mean she. She knew she knew we were talking about that. I mean she's in the shut up world, so she has that product as well, but it's been gifted to her ok and you purchased it her just kind of. Is it the hyaluronic serum serum yeah and it's three hundred dollars oh my god, and how long will it last couple weeks? No, no! No! I mean I hope I hope six years now. Do you think last a year, then I think it will probably last six months, okay, so in just honesty, roughly two bucks a day Well, some people have been six bucks a day. Smoking cigarettes makes their skin look terror or getting Starbucks yeah, so you're spending two bucks a day make your skin look great. I don't know there should be no guilt about that was fast math. Well in his rough 'cause, it's three hundred and sixty
I love her, but she is a little. So you're spending a little less than yeah, probably spend like Bucky I'd. Do like a fancy product yeah, I have a flight back last night Kristen- was not with us on the way home he bounced to Canada, Post Nashville. Something happened on the plane at the end of our flight, yet tell people what happened. Well. Ok, so let me just back up that we were first two get in front of the boarding thing like we were waiting. Am to say get already getting on. The plane were clearly the the five of us. You two kids or walk you up, and then they called it in a man literally sprinted in front of us. He like he cut in front of us to go, which doesn't mean whatever kind of Turkey move or whatever, but I clocked it right, and then it just so happened that we were all seated directly behind him me, particularly. I was directly behind him yeah right when we landed, awoke Lincoln up and she had to go pee really bad. Yes,
to pee, and then we had to wait on the tarmac for another ten minutes before she could pee so she's, dependable yeah. She really had to go so when we got to the gate. You Lincoln immediately bolted for the bathroom yeah in walked in Love the guy. Yes, the guy in question, mind you we are road to. He was in real one yeah. You guys walked past him, I wish I could remember his exact comment. He remembers me he he said like wow Ok, I just run in and get out first or I think I did go ahead or something like that yeah. If any did it loud and it was to everyone in the cab and basically he's trying to shame you guys right, but I could not conceivably. Take that a shame, because I was like oh Joking. How could anyone be mad about a kid doing anything yeah? So so he was, and he said something
and then I said she just going to the bathroom and then I bent down to get like my bag and ship, and, I said, get over yourself buddy. It wasn't even looking at his face. So just was like no fucking get over yourself right right right right. I think so get over. Myself and then I look right and I go yeah get over yourself, she's fucking yeah and goes, You want to do this and I go yeah motherfucker. Let's do this. You want to fucking get in a fight about you being an asshole and yelling to little six year right now, and then he goes. Oh ok, yeah! Let's do it and I'll get the cops, and then I right in his face and I go yeah you'll get the cops, 'cause you're a fucking see. Now I should have said Pussey we don't say anymore, but in that moment I got mad. Well, the reason that you don't we don't say it is 'cause like that guy doesn't deserve to be called a pussy like now we did, he did not use the word. Possessed you to call them up power, that's what I should call them he's picking a fight fight with me,
and then he means like I'm, going to call the cops. That's a fucken, punk move. Yes, because my my point is a push. That's not fair! I know that putting that guy in in your category yeah- that's not fair, yes, and so Bernie Brown- or we are the debate it now. My defense of it is is we can cook, we can say, put because we're still saying Dick and so we've associated with the male genitalia you of a fucking jerk, which sucks for male genitalia, big deal. I get it that's what people are their a dick and so we've associated Pussey with being a coward. No for me, coward. Ok, all that similar yeah, not great, nor is calling, but we believe it never earned that women aren't even stereotypically crossword, breaker, Bubblemen haven't fuckin', earned that were assehole, jerks or dicks. Haven't earned us were Assehole jerks that are, anatomy is synonymous with asshole and jerk now.
you either have it both ways or you don't? Well? I don't think that either neither represents anything which is my position on it: nine there's representing anything a penises, an asshole or a jerk. But when we call someone a dick, we know exactly what it means there. Jerkin Anasol Pussey does not mean weak or cowardly, but when we save a seat, that's what it means. So my only argument is. Ok, we won't say post anymore We can say dick but she said no we're going to not say cuisine, we're still going to say Dick, which I applaud and that's your position as well will keep saying Dick, but we won't say: puss E. You can't make a logical in a court room argument, one right or not letting me a pleasing, I'm just saying that the reason people are used to is because when men are jerky, it's it's in the bravado man skill way no see reject masculinity has nothing to jerk
and this is what I don't agree with you- I don't want you making those synonymous. I'm not just did no I'm saying when your act. like a jerk and you're a guy and you're using the bravado of it. That is, something women do yes, it is because I've seen a million women act like complete and yell at people in public yeah, but it's not with the same it do you then I call thank. I call women decks. Okay, so you're doing with what I'm saying, you're, taking a the quality of being like super Your face is a dick move. Dick move or jerk right. It doesn't you mean masculine, but don't you think
typically the masculine quality. It lends itself to that kind of bravado. No, I don't think masculinity is synonymous with juror or or you think masculinity lends itself to bravado, not being an or jerk, but a is bravado bravery. It's it's a! I think it's an in your face, big you could say, or something that's male or female. I think I've been yelled at by as many women as I have men, probably more women than I have men. Ok I mean this is how I really don't you unless I'm misunderstanding, your point, I think your point is we saved it because it's div of masculinity in that that aggressive behavior is a masculine, trait aggression and and stereo. Aggression is associated with men more than women, and I don't. I don't believe that I think women are just as aggressive their aggressive on the road there fucking flipping me off there
taking their head when they drive like. I think I don't think either gender. I love myself. That's true, then, that women are just as aggressive than puts never ever many associated with coward. If I, is this policy? Should I'm not defending that? Pussey should represent cowardliness. What I'm saying is, Two words have come to mean two things: one dick means: asshole jerk Pussey means coward. I don't think either of those explain the body part in anyway, or are actually any kind of window on to what's going on with the body part, I think they've been arbiter. Early assigned- and I think neither has any real meaning but Stan. Women are going. No, you can't, just as see our genitalia with being weak, which is totally you're right and also you shouldn't associate, male genitalia would be an asshole or a jerk. so, if you want to use one, I think you got to use both. That's that's my
there I think it's actually or just testosterone based more than gender, but I think the more testosterone you have, the more aggressive you are, let's go deeper. It was about my kid So, if I had just been about robber, you, I probably said something: smart 'cause, I'm protective of you. So it's a double whammy, but I think any woman who. watch their six year old daughter, get called something by an adult yet of also said it all. I think that all women would of who are the mother of the child. Sure I would have. said something to him if I knew it was going on, but I wouldn't have done it the way you did it. Well, escalation! Part right! Yes, like very again see the point in in trying to assign whether that's a male or female, and I think there's something more specific going on, which is just like. I would do that weekly would do that Ryan Hansen. What do that there's like that, like? I was trying to pick a fight that
I believe that yeah obviously, and he found the right guy 'cause. I love to get into it. So I think I I guess what I'm saying is: wow. Why would we even try to assign my response and behavior to be? when, in fact, it's more the result of me being second born bunch of Stepdad's. All these things finding uh where you you, you demonstrate your love for one another by fighting and sticking up for each other, like those things are so much more relevant than me being mailed. Ok, I think you just normally that's normally my side of the argument. It is a fun to flip, Is it fun for you yeah, I believe, I'm saying to you right, but I It feels like yeah this can be yeah yeah yeah, in my opinion, Can I see more of a connection to when people are called dicks because being aggressive, and I do tend to associate aggression more with me
and really more with an abundance testosterone. I think definitely says the physical violence more with men totally agree with you thousand percent. I don't I see people arguing and being shitty to each other more like with being male or female? I just in my own life experience. It seems pretty even yeah. Well, definitely arguing and being mean and being an asshole for sure is not gendered. Everyone does that yeah I just generally associate saying he was being a dick to someone who is being aggressive. I think that is why that word is associated because men tend to be a little bit more rest and maybe there's also like pussy. Women societally have been told to be submissive and all of those things. So that's also probably to an extent as well. The bottom line is: there's nothing weak about Pussey doesn't make
the argument, you know what I'm saying like: there's nothing cowardly about a Pussey right, looking baby games out of it somehow yeah rebounds, that's incredible! I pushed a baby through my penis. It would never be the same never yeah, it's a way to call a guy girl. It is it's not about the actual organ. That's not in it's also not about the actual dick penises. It's about what it represents, which is aggression and entitlement yeah, but anyway We are really bugged out anyways. The point: is it really got dicey on the flight at the last minute and it one a am Nashville time which had been daylight savings time. Like two hundred Am Nashville time right. Don't anyone's at their best sure yeah, that's true! We still friends, yeah yeah, ok, good, what a great conversation to be having an Dawkins this talking thing, because for one reason,
it's so low brow like he's running get. It may be our highest progress, but at the same time there is all this weird evolutionary scale happening: lowbrow yeah! Well, let's some fun things now, but in the middle of it there is a lot of fun cues in your, in fact this and that and in the middle of it he goes. I I was yelling at your wife, referring to you, your wife, shoved me or something like break like you've, shoved anyone at ever yeah- and I know it's very flattering- you think she's, my if she's not, and he goes. Oh, then your nanny and I don't know she's my business part like I had this real moment of conversation, I'm in the middle of all is like I'll scream with you and we can fight and everything. But also here are the facts of what's going on she's, not my wife and she's, not my nanny she's, my business part.
So I called the girl sweet at one point called Delta sweet. He said I was talking really loud, the whole flight which didn't happen at all. No I mean we were talking out loud bearing and we talked about a poop story magazine where he's upset about that. He had headphones on then he was a slave. Whatever, who chairs? I mean internet straws, he was like losing ground really yeah man, okay, Richard, Richard. Don't have him for very long. No, and I will say in retrospect I was embarrassed post interview, right around for a few hours, because I wanted to get to foundation,
and I thought all we have two hours, I'm going to give him a good thirty. Five minutes of foundation at the end yeah, but I was kind of I wanted to talk about selfish gene. I want I mean that's such a profound book and I really enjoyed it now and then I realized from his publicist that we were like it's time to wrap it up, and I still haven't talked about his foundation and they must have left like guys and and Well, I didn't even What were you talked about it a little bit the engineers really quickly? I still have. I only had like three other things I wanted to talk to him out before we got to the foundation yeah, that's fine everything we wish we could have talked to him longer, but you shouldn't feel any guilt about anything I felt like they felt like the exchange wasn't worthwhile 'cause. He doesn't do many interviews the guys flown in from England he's older. Eighty something yeah this time is valuable. This was a religion heavy, ish right, because he has an atheist foundation, yeah promoting atheism yeah, but I weirdly
you know I was waiting to get some pushback from him. When I was basically saying like I don't care if people believe in God, you know like I'm not trying to prove to some no god I was ready for on the go now that we have to prove that to be because it's getting in the way of science is getting away with peoples. Health, it's getting in the way of which is all true. There's, there's a price tag that comes with religion, I'm not one to say whether, ultimately, it's in the black or the red, I don't really care if there is an objective price tag being paid for a lot of religion. Yeah I've been thinking about this. So we had to neon haha yeah is definitely the nice side of. Oh, my god, I am so that's what I'm saying I was thinking about it after Tony left and I was like the since I know currently yeah, I think they're wonderful do you keep driving there great in their lives and they're really trying to spread.
Love, but not lakes, read the word of God like none of these people who are tising, no ones proselytizing, I'm kind of anti proselytizing owning your own truth and sharing your own truth. I love that now. I don't like still a tising anything so so you don't in Atheism organization. I don't yeah. I I mean I, I don't know how no you can have that opinion, because I I seen the virtue in sending a loud signal that hey, if you don't believe and that God, in your fearful that that means you won't have a moral come this yeah I'm here. This group of people is here to say that you could not believe in a higher power and still find your way to moral footing in that's true yeah, that's worthwhile 'cause, no one. He is also right. there will not be an atheist president in the near future.
I can tell you that right now there will be many other kinds of minority groups occupying White House before open atheist will yeah. So in that way you go Now this is a group that really kind of has limited access, totaling certain things, because people are nervous of atheist. I agree and I think it's silly to be nervous of an atheist, obviously, but I just don't think telling people what they believe. For so long is wrong. Is that effective? Yeah? Personally, I agree. I think it's just affected to say what you believe in yeah oh, when Tony was I was saying about this, and I was like I like that all these. People believe in those things. I think it really makes them better so Even though there's an objective price tag. Person
person there's a subjective gain yeah. But what about? I mean prop eight here in California, which was what legally forbid any gay marriage Yeah was one hundred percent funded by the Mormon Church right now, so it's you got to my with that and of course, you probably would know many of those Mormons who are beautiful, nice people and getting a lot of their religion, but they also did. Yeah they do have causes they do and they're very well we're going to yes in mobilized in their effective I mean the moral majority, the Christian majority, that's gotten, president selected, and you know there are powerful group. Definitely it is antithetical to a lot of the in light ideals which I certainly hold to be true. Yeah, it's almost just one of these groups of like go ahead and exist now going to throw each other but see the funk out everything right, yeah, I Jenna It really don't like religion.
But then, when I look at the details of the people, I know I think it's just really good for them, So it's hard for me to also say everyone's, I totally denounce like I don't know what kind of price That would come with. We don't know. We never lived in a world where no he believed in God, who knows what that world would look like. Well, look like Denmark, I think I think a lot of those western european countries, very largely atheist and even their leaders are outspokenly atheist were still uh. inordinately religious for a western industrialized superpower, yeah, So you were talking about how everything objective goes or human filter making. It then on objective, basically, is what you're saying which is like first,
and accounts by first hand, accounts aren't table at all right. I remember so two friends got held up at gunpoint Well then they were with two other friends, so four people for people total they got held up at gun. One person ran away. The other person was sort of trying to talk to the person down and they all have very different opinions of what Ben all fast and they were all v- is all happening to them at once. Their memories are different. The range of memory I Nothing too crazy, but just like like they always wonder, person was the same color. They all agree the person who same size. They all agree. That person was, I think, the same color. Yes, I don't know bout size, but yeah, there's just discrepancies and when they were talking to the police, they the police said that like yeah,
hi? This is first hand. Accounts are really not all that helpful, because everyone has a different opinion. The moment in your brain is in such a fight or flight yeah. I wonder if a fifth person are now a six first because we have the gunman in the mix and there was a six person safely across the street. Observing the whole thing. I wonder if that account would be pretty good. I wonder also, though I think it just comes with seeing things that are heightened like your heart. Everything in your body also changes. Yes, all the instruments by which you're taking on data have altered them selves. You know true and if you're, if you're the six person across the street watching this thing, here's the the variation that could exist, your there's someone who already thinks downtown Detroit is a shithole. It's been taken over by fucking. Easter some bags, and then you see that in it you're like yep this place,
piece of shit, I knew it and it was ruined by so and so like it goes directly into whatever pre standing theory confirmation of this of the city. Now, if you love downtown Detroit. You like this is such a fun great place, and you see that you go on bummer that persons I really struggling and need something yeah, and this is the situation we've put them in right. There you have to draw technically different breeds of the whole thing yeah, I know yeah were useless. That's where ai is going to kick in I'll, call legal to spit out a prognosis so going now. This is exactly what happened but where about to gonna, have to just be everywhere everywhere and then they'll be like you know, interpreting what happened only isn't that a weird possible reality where the truth is known. No one would want to accept it. They'll be no human judgement. but but they'll also be no emotional, truth and emotional
Is Israel? That's what the point I trying to make that I didn't do a good job of it like reality, shimmery reality yeah. An inter this brain, which is not reality so right who cares so when the point of yeah I know, I know that a little bit of it is like you got a good knowledge that were not a can, taken on the data, not a so there's something else happening. We need to correct for yeah knowledge. Yes, when I was reading on these eyewitness on eyewitness stuff, so this one article said the Ical acceptance of eyewitness accounts may stem from a popular misconception of how memory works. Many people believe but human memory works. Like a video recorder, the mine records, fence and then on cube plays back an exact replica of them on the which area psychologists have found that memories are reconstructed rather than played back each time we were called them the
the remembering is more akin to putting puzzle pieces together than retrieving a video recording. It really because the show I think this is a danger because there is a reality in facts, are they are yeah. I want to diminish that, but I will say it's a good thing to think about, because Your life? Is your memory of your life? Your life is the story. You're telling your life is the puzzle pieces you've ' added to hold on to and assemble yeah. So, as you move through life, your actual attitude will become the puzzle pieces you for the rest of your life to build your story, yeah, but think of your innately. Is it ever. You put a lot of time into trying to be positive and trying to see good. Then. going to be the puzzle pieces you end up with store yeah, if you're only putting garbage in of everything sucks and everything's negative adults a little. What else could you build? The union build a bake, a cake with spoiled eggs? Can't do it?
you should eat cake. I assume maybe they're delicious. Thank you said yeah. Definitely so you said Clint Eastwood reproduce when he was eighty, so he is a twenty two year old, and he's eighty nine he is uh. I think he is younger child. In that I looked up his kids, I didn't see anyone younger than eighteen years ago. I knew we had a three year old anyways. So he's got a twenty two year old kid he's. Eighty nine so sixty seven there's also that's still hold as old as well, so you said, Bret Weinstein had a name for the theory where it's hard to break cycles. because if the, if it has its desired effect, and if the logic is skewed behind the, then why would you break the pattern? Email TIM to find out what the name of that was, and he hasn't responded yet said, brought my computer except in my own notes, 'cause, I asked him. oh you did dang it
Thank you so yeah, but if it maybe it's an r episode with him. Maybe people already know where he is. I believe, but will punt that listen I'll. Look in my notes and I'll be able to tell us and less he responded very spot. You might I. I thought it was really sweet that you wanted him to sign your book cute you're a fan. Oh yeah, big, big, big big fan, yeah yeah yeah! Oh yeah, one of the one of the few guess I was like like shooting a brick before we talk to yeah. Oh my god be so dumb. If you're going to how the way that these people have studied and come up with theories better, so breakthrough? Yeah that I find It is insane it's insane, it is, and it's it's an it's level that is like twenty stops ahead of what I can that's true, but also, then, with that knowledge is like okay, so operating on that level like I'm. Not if I make a mistake it in front of him, I'm like okay cares,
If I make a mistake in front of MIKE sure, I would really yeah- I guess, that's about yeah how you want to be yeah. How I want that person to think of me, like that, he's not ever going to Think of anyone who has a normal brain, even a brain, operating at a high level like yours, he's, never going to be like that guy, so Yeah he's just not because here because he has that capacity, you're, right and yell to mentally. That's what I want, actually I want to walk out of here shaking his head going like we lost a good one. He should have gone into sight. I know I know I know you want and I don't blame you for wanting that at all it. It's like, even if you created the theory to be in the room in front of him he's not will probably going to be able to take that in in the moment as something profound. Ok right, so that's, maybe another regret of mine a little embarrassment I gotta say I was very proud of myself
I didn't try to make SAM Harris think I was smart yet, but I do think I tried to make Dawkins the ghost little bit. I don't think I don't think Bullseye that I would say it's off line about thirty percent you just I can't I got like I got it: yeah yeah I gotta fanboy, so cute funky monkey right now. I love that. I decided. I think that is so sweet have any more facts about Richard. No, I don't. Oh ok, I just notice your keyboard was closed. Yeah. but it was exciting to get him and I'm happy that you got to talk to here heroes and I hope that you don't feel bad about that interview. You really shouldn't ok. This is my because you are smart. You need to remember that. I don't understand, like you forget, is so soon you're so dumb, I love you. I love you,