Susan Stryker is a professor, author, filmmaker, and theorist whose work focuses on gender and human sexuality. Susan joins the Armchair Expert to discuss the transgender experience in today’s modern world, consulting on the Lady and the Dale docuseries, and how transgender hate is rooted in racism, colonization, and oppression. Susan and Dax talk about the history of criminalization of non-reproductive sexuality, the cross-cultural view of transgender people, and what transmisogyny means. Susan and Dax debate how people should approach transgender Olympic athletes, beliefs about masculinity, and what actually gives an athlete an advantage.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Were, I can walk mark on the arm. Chair expert experts on expert I'm shepherd joined by the duchess of Duluth, Monica? Never it hasn't gotten. All dear me said, are only twice but so far I love it. I think you'll be a hundred plus before you don't like the Duchess Duluth, it's so nice. The duchess of Duluth manage your mouse of of Patman here, as off. Patent ok, so today's guest Susan striker is a professor and author a filmmaker in a theorists whose work focuses on gender and human sexuality as you'll. In this interview? This is something that I was exposed to and a document or who are became really interested in because she spoke on the history of the trans experience in the? U S, which I was pretty unaware of to a large degree, and I found it
really interesting, and I have decided that I dont know nearly enough about it. Nor do I nor my personally friends with any trans folks and I just have a kind of a big, gaping blind spot on the whole topic. So this is the first The attempt to familiarised myself with the stories that exists within that community. Yeah She has several books gay by the bay, a history of queer culture in the San Francisco Bay Area, the train gender studies, reader and transgender history and, of course she appears in the phenomenal documentary, the lady in the data, which is where I discovered her so I guess turn warning, maybe I definitely take the post should a couple times in this of what I perceive to be some public push back, some of these issues, involvement, Franz athletes in the Olympics. Yes- or maybe that's worth mentioning here, if that's upsetting, to hear my view of that, yeah you're, you're questioning of ass? Thank you Monica
and they uses striker. Please enjoy Susan Striker, we are supported I knew that's my favorite word. It's like an item on appear. Doom. Do you know how to chew how to chopsticks kinder? Do you really know how to eat noon says if you lose weight. It's not about one thing you ate today, but how you eat in general with new. You pick the health goals that are right for you, and new personalize is a weight loss program to help your aspirations become reality. I love noon, causes kind like having a coach that helps you for me feel good about my choices in that comes this kind sense of self worth in control. Again that's, because numerous cognitive behavioral approach means you're, not just losing weight, your building, the habits you need to keep it off, everyone is based, that's. My name doesn't demand much of your time. The only asked for ten minutes a day in over eighty percent of numerous finished the program and over sixty percent have stuck with their goals for at least one
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So with deep sincerity, I want to say every now and then- and this is the best part of it job. Is I see somebody somewhere and I get super interest the amendment I say the robber Monica, like, oh, my god, I'd love to talk to Susan. Do you think, that's possible and then the help of Adam Kirsch. We get to talk to you, so you are one of the people I think every two months- I feel but I see some one in the world and I I desperately want to talk to them. Then we get you in your hair, yeah. Well, you know flattery will get you many. This is so that you are founded interesting. So, of course, that intrigues me about wanting to show up it beyond your podcast, so I disagree where'd. You on the lady in the DOW, which is a great documentary on HBO, produced by the deplore brothers in conjunction with many other people, and it tells this guy. its story of Elizabeth Car, Michael and for people who did not live through that
citing drawn in the seventies Elizabeth had created a three wheel car at the height of the fuel crunch. People were in lines not unlike yesterday in Georgia, where in line for fuel. As a response it was supposed to get in but it will fuel economy. She was able to invest, dirty precept, some stuff and then, of course the whole thing went bust and it went bust for a lotta reasons. Some of them. I think, we'll talk about great length, but you were regularly cut too to give kind of a historical context of what it was. to be Trans in America or anywhere in the world and full admission. I had not shamefully had not ever wandered down that road, I just had to? I would say if I had to sum up my views: I am in favour of trans people doing anything they want. I don't think there should be any legal limitations. I think people should
very whoever they want. I think people should live out whatever Jen that they identify with all that said, that's about the extent of it tat. You ve thought about that. I've thought about it. I've had the privilege of friends with many gay men and women, so I've learned their story personally. So I think I just had a lot more empathy for what gay people in America went through, but I don't think I've ever really thought much about what trans people go through in America and I think probably just lumps trans into the El Gb. Take you like to be the same experience but profoundly different in many ways. I do think it's different in I mean different issues come up about being transferred. when I was listening to you talk the thing that I most heard was added know much about it. Ok, many people down, but I also heard you say like it wasn't a thing to me just like in a world where lakes, much like knee jerk hostility or fear
anger or misinformation can be pointed at Trans people, just that sense of its like some people, you know I didn't know anything about it. It's like that's actually really to place to start will. Let me oh, my bad stuff, too. In half the reason I want to call it a change of heart, watching you on that documentary, but definitely enlightened deity. yeah, I mean a lot of ways and it really made me just think a lot of as I have just not done in so one of the I can only like I, Ben someone, who's been like. Oh I gotta know What someone's preferred pronoun is. I'm gonna mess this by a fear. I'm gonna fuck that up so that feels inconvenient to me, so I ve not been like, as bracing of that. So that's a bad thing, we later. I would like to do it towards the end. If we could is, I have position on the Olympics that might be up for evolution. I just now
I need to know a lot more about it, so truly have an opinion. Okay, well I consider yourselves scolded and shamed for, like a famous. But let's talk about the things that you are interested in yeah. Well, so in this documentary Elizabeth launches this company and there is a news, castor in LOS Angeles, affiliates, relevant points. It was later revealed in the dark that it is the father of Tucker Karlsson, which I found to be almost impossible coincidence in the middle of this whole thing. But this particular news anchor is in fury aided with Elizabeth and the car, the dal? He is an obsession with her and the company and he does exposure the experts say after experts say about Elizabeth and underline all of it becomes quite evident. Is he think she's, a man and he's gonna exposure
and then we learn another obsession of his was a tennis player and Orange County competing incompletely erect tournaments that he needed to expose that that woman was a man, and you see all this person had some obsession, about this and the way he talks about it in public very eye opening of how you can talk about it in the seventies, Eightys and Ninetys so derogatory, so not human, so punch line Oliver just I went off flock to be Elizabeth at that time was uniquely a horrible in many ways. Here you bring up important things so for your listeners, you haven't seen the film the lady in the day, You were saying it's like it is at some level about a car made nineteen. Seventy four that promised amazing dual efficiency, and that was a very hot topic right at the time, and then it comes out that the person whose problem
putting this car is a transgender woman. Now somebody who was, as they say, assigned EL at birth had a male biology, but then didn't live as a man as an adult and so that what this film looks acts the relationship between how Liz Car, Michael it she's a messy, complicated person, is like she was a con artists and where there is in any way till she would say that about herself at me she had been involved in forgeries. scams and check trading schemes. When she was a career, small time criminal who had lived on the run for many hours, she lived on the run for you, let me she was married. She had kids and, like the whole family, it was like they were outlaw family and are always on the run like on kids cops. You come and pack up, let's go out the door jump in the van, so that was who lives was. But what was interesting in these conversations about what
Is this car the day all a scale really a car? They Seventy five miles per gallon. That's only gonna cost x number of thousand hours really. Is it too good to be true, while when question started coming up about the key and about some of the dodgy financing lives was actually eventually convicted of securities fraud at sight. She was taking it Esther money but actually using it, and why is that? You know the SEC said: you're not really allowed to use, invest your money that way and we're getting people to give you money to do this thing in you're, not doing exactly the thing you're supposed to do with that money and, let's just say it was illegal, she did crimes, but then what becomes interesting is the way at her criminality and her con artist streaming get inflated with her status, as a trance woman and the way that it can have got posed in the media by Dick Karlsson. It's kind like, while, of course the car is a fraud
because the lady is our fraud. That's young, Ladys, snatched, the wig off Gunnar reveal with his person really is. I think what I love about the show the way in the day, all Vienna so appreciated the two plus brothers doing and bringing entranced people into the production as Zachary Drucker was Co. Director and producers and the show and like what they were all able to do so well, was to use this ass of a train wreck of a story to like not only tell ripper bring good, true crime story with like oh gee exclamation point. I can't believe that happened to actually use that as a way of doing some education, around transitions about, say, like she's, a Trans woman as a criminal being Tran It is a criminal deceit, even if the audiences, unlike think
about it in that turbine they get they get it through. The storytelling that may be its more complicated than they were thinking and there's lots of little light bulb moments like the one you were having a guy who never thought about this I just want something. What does remind me of that? They were trying to pass some law driven by the parents of the child's with super sympathetic, but an illegal immigrant quote illegal immigrant in a drunk driving accident killed a young child old, but the legislation that was trying to be born out of it had all to do with immigration. It had nothing to do DR here, which was the culprit in this horrific situation, Felix. Similarly, what people wanted to do as connect dots? about her transit is by the way, She had been on the run, so they were saying: oh she's, obscuring her true identity or gender as to get away with her previous crimes are prisoners of some new, despite the fact that you,
living that way. Long before she had started the Dell company. And you know that such a common way of people taking about Trans women that I think ultimately is rooted in a kind of really pervasive cultural, massage any kind of way look. We had all the parts of being a guy. Why would you want to be a woman like that's, not a good thing to be? It must be for some ulterior Motiv. Oh, it's criminal disguises are pretending to be this thing that nobody would really want to be so that they can do some crimes. That's it and just the idea, that's like you know. Some people are trans. It's just like some people's sense of self develops in a way that is like different from the way most people feel about themselves. It's like it's just a way that you can be think about it being like left handed.
just like I happened to be left handed you, oh, yes, so think about trans Must, as a kind of gender left, handedness most people art, but it's just another way that you can be. While I have to say one thing that primary forward a little bit is not even one but it is in this morning's interview, I gotta bring it up now say that so I learned in anthropology that, as we look at other cultures, there were many pretty Currently most cultures have a binary category of male female, but in some of the islands in Polynesia you have third options. Rightward, they were neither male nor female in the way we would think of male or female. So I guess in some way in college. I was prime this notion of, like oh yeah, it is a mental construct. That's interesting, the gender, wise of male female that something we have
created and we have defined, and we put things into what makes either of those binary options thrive and yet to see. Cultures that have existed that have a third option- ok, well, there's a third option than there's no reason there can't be afford option or if it option and so on gas. I think you're. I am pointing out just how complicated it is when you let cross culturally, as well as transit, store a claim that we have a belief in our culture in the past, since about what the body means or how many genders there are. I'm really glad you brought up the question about how, but we think of his sex or gender is something that actually is not carbon
stone and it's not necessarily as biological as we believe. If you look cross culturally and if you look trance historically across you now human cultures across long spans of time, human societies have come up with all in some ways of categorizing people buy you call that kinship. You could call that pronouns. It's like there are a wide range of Joel practices for sorting bodies into categories of and it's not just to that. There's too that there are on binary or multiple, not just to turn my three and four term categories: some societies. What I think is really important one of the things that makes it hard for people kind of grounded in modern eurocentric, mature below scientific framework is that we have a cultural belief that the meaning of the word,
is stable and that biological difference is the most important way of sorting people went to categories, and so, while at a trance people catch placards, Variants. Violence is that other people think that we are denying something that is fundamentally true, it's like, but you were born with a penis you're, a man like low point. Do we have this cultural believe that had just lay biology, is what is the appropriate thing that anchors you in a category that mail means this. If you have a male anatomy, it means you have of masculine subjectivity, which means you prefer he him pronoun Switch means you're heterosexual, which means this that of the other thing and that it could be otherwise right. While I do think, people do have a general if, like so, I think throughout this conversation, we'll Baltic turns making not excuses, but I would argue explanations: one is people are drawn to
definitive statements. Third, drawn to black and white there afraid of nuance, nuances, a lot harder for all of us. We have evolved biologically to be categorical to go those poisonous. That looks healthy or fighting through a lot of things I think to explore this year, and the thing that I feel is an increasingly important to focus on is that I think, where train people run into problems having the same civil and social and human rights as other people. It revolves around that question what are you really and once your motive for them saying you really are something or pretending to be something that you're really nod in ways that that raises up the whole trains of association about to see deception.
criminality, mental illness, but have you. But I just think it's really important to think that the problems trance people face now are rooted in our beliefs, about what biology means, not that there is biological difference, but that we believe that the meaning that we, a tribute to biology, is somehow etched in stone and the But I say I feel increasingly aware of as a historian and as somebody who thinks about gender and hunt. Gender words is that I think that those mainstream dominant beliefs, about the meaning of biological difference are actually did again, maybe this sounds like a bit of a stretch but read it and histories of racism, enslavement and colonization, that there is a particular
way of thinking about the meaning of biological difference that came out of the european experience of life world colonization, because there was a belief about the meaning of bodily difference. That became important for appeal the slave economy- it's like saying like if your body looks like this- is your skin That way, your hair looks this way. Your nose looks this way. That means that you are bound into a perpetual condition of enforced labour sake, you're not treated as a person. Those believes that develop over centuries, better eventually like propped up by scientific racism by you genetic theories by sex ology in the nineteenth century. It's like they're, all rooted in cultural beliefs, about the meaning of the body that our functionally useful
far perpetuating colonialism global capital. That is the deep structure of power. That is at stake and Trans people call it into question by As you know, your body can mean something other than what your culture tells you. It is code and quote supposed to mean, which is what you see when you look cross. truly and over long histories of time that there are other ways other than a modern eurocentric framework for or I think a viable society and for living a good life. I figure I don't think so much of the history of biology in do european western history is trying to justify why they should not be working in the field. In these other people shut.
because there is some nagging question of like what would give us the right to do this. I think of even like interplanetary was a big field and anthropology, but it got abolish because it was so handled which the Arians wanna say were better than Jews, but we need some criteria are metrics, so we start measuring facial pragmatism, but really there in search of a reasoned and the main went out and basically measured and measured a measured until they found some distinction by which they could hang the whole argument. It wasn't that tests that reveal the conclusion. It was a hypothesis. They went out to confirm use of cultural beliefs about science, not science itself. And I'm gonna use that cultural power to prop up my belief about something gets exactly what you were saying
The idea that you are using the cultural meaning of science to create a social hierarchy basin etiology base than belief, and that what I would say that through Trans people need to do is to push back. Against the cultural power of science to define the meaning of your life is different then saying I don't believe in science going. Berlin to some basics, and you can again fully open to some correction on this but If we do drill into genetics- and we start with males are x Y. Forty five, forty, six chromosomes, you get a wire, a boy. If you get an ax you're, a girl can Fortunately, this is what we were taught. Biology now. I think a lot of people get for Austria that will now you either are x Y or your execs. Even within the nature,
of biology. There is theirs x, X, Y, there's x, Y Y, there's all these variants of X Y this just in nature, forget about culture. For a second year, just looking at people's DNA, we already see things other than just X, x or x Y and then another important thing that biologists talk about all the time is the difference between Gina, typical amphion typical. So quite often there is disparity between what the recipe says it should make what actually result the phenotype. So you could have, let's just as an example, you Have your genes said yours will set blue eyes, but then through something in the I had some other weird thing: you could have We would brown eyes so it's vena, typically different than it is Gina typically. So that happens all the time as well. We observe that non. Stop and all babies in the womb have ovaries inside and then at a certain point, the pregnancy. If, with the mom reads it's a boy, X y it'll send downtown
Austria and which makes the ovaries drop and become testicles, like we already start as this one thing that, through this chemical and acts, this change, so I guess I'm trying to lay out how much variety already exists biologically speaking here in cages, bounce off that it's like what I hear is. We have a cultural believed that there are two kinds of bodies Melanie male that fit into two kinds of categories: man and woman near just sorting, pink, blue, pink, blue and the right boxes, and the thing that Europe, pointing to with the genetics, is that well just with Even I talk about the whole like hair of trans identity or Trans rights is just like you just like there's genetic difference in human populations there are intersects can, Sharon's, there are other kinds of genetic conditions at complicate the whole X Y thing, and it becomes hard to think about because we have the cultural believe
If that we are determined in every aspect of our identity by our genetics, it's that belief that the specificity of the body properly anchors that person in and unquestioned seemingly natural social category, and, as you were just saying, what do you do with intersect? What do you do? with more than x x, x Y genetic patterns. Is such a blow your mind up its. I can't even think about it, and I want all over us whom, but, people have some awareness of sodomy laws, laws that were clearly designated to criminalize gay behaviour. What's the like legal history, while I would just say on on the sodomy question that we do ten, think about sodomy is something gay, but that sodomy just like in a lot of courage, gin and political thought from dumb. Sodomy just means like procreative, behavior but
was heavily used to criminalize, gave folks yeah. It's like the criminalization of nine reproductive sexuality, I want to ask you a real quick when you are laying out Elizabeth Car Michael and saying you know it's a messy story. It made me think if you ever listen more perfect by chance that pod cast, I will confess I am not a huge cod cast. Mr Anwar of Applied CAS talker than was sure sure? That's where the now it happened so get me up coming as it does it it's spin off of radio labourers produced by radio lab and they go through really Landmark Supreme Court decisions, and one there was a sodomy law down in taxes, because the only way to get rid of them is to find them unconstitutional in court and that there is no appetite for some politician and try to off the book, so there's a lot of civil rights attorney. that are basically waiting for a case to come up, so they can bring it to the Supreme Court and get rid of it and in this case, in Texas, these cops respond to it. All they go inside. They build
their seen sodomy? They arrest the civil liberties, Attorneys are so thrilled. They're gonna have this case, and then the guys are just that, the worst two guys you could want to be the face of this thing: their boat like her the core attics. It turns out. They were and even engaged in sex. But the lawyers are like just role with it. They get him fistfight before the trial. That is always just kind of about quite often they're, not always Rosa parks. person. You need to lead a movement. Sometimes it's not me out. So the trends, angle. On that it's like, I will just say, I am not a big legal theorist. I do more. Surely cultural studies, kinds of work and historical word? Have you really want to talk Tran legal history, there's a guy at the ACL. You chase Strand GEO, whose life been arguing cases in front of the Supreme Court. Now he's the one who argued in the employment discrimination case that came up last summer. Forget
persons name Amy, who worked? Home who was fired when she came out as Trans, and yet we won that one year thickly saying you can't discriminate on the basis of gender identity, an expression that that constitutes sex discrimination, so chases. The person who argued that case you should bring him on, but you just kind of in a general sense of faking yeah like so much about being trance of like not having them. male female masculine, feminine man, woman thing, why not been straightway isn't just like. Other heads rapture for people's like it's a crime, it's been criminal. That usually, I would say it's so times. Trance people run a foul of the law, for you know what you're calling sodomy back in the day. It's like, if that. The woman that would be heterosexuality bet, snatched. The wig off that was a man so that sodomy trans people do fall foul
of the criminalization of homosexual behaviors, but they also run a foul of laws that regulate public appearance and dress? And you know- and we dont think about that sumptuary laws that used to be like back in the day? It's like. Oh, you can't. Where lay so her collar. Unless you remember, the aristocracy or bakers have to wear those white, That's, so that everybody knows that there are Baker me there used to be really explicit, sumptuary laws, and we don't tend to think that we still have them but anti cross dressing. as our sumptuary laws, get saying if you wear that clothes, and you have that body, that is a crime. It is illegal on regulating dress and I think these laws are actually related to laws against his job, It's like you care where that we have to see your face than unlike what does it say about masking during the pandemic in ways that, like people have like so many opinions about like what is good or bad right or wrong about a piece of cloth
that somebody, whereas next to their body, there's a lot that's at stake there symbolically were cross dressing laws rampart across the country, starting in the eighteen forty is through the eighteen. Seventy you do see a wave of legislation going across the: U s that that they're, all municipal ordnance, as the federal government doesn't care state governments, don't care. It happens at the city level that you will cities ordinances. That basic Something like it shall be illegal for a person to appear in public in a dress, not belong into his or her sex,
These laws might be used again say: like feminists dress, reformers like Amelia Bloomer, food psycho. We should wear pants because those skirts they get some money when you cross the street and they get horse poop on them and just like, we should wear pan sinner with high boots, just like the man so basically like who gets to appear in public. How is something that is increasingly regulated, starting in the eighth forties regulating dress. There hasn't been a lot of historical work done on the different cities, where you start to see these cross dressing laws being enacted, but put I say. What we can see thus far is that they all happened to be places that experience rapid population growth have a Lee heterogeneous population and that there are a lot of immigrants, Saint Louis is like one of the earliest cities and Saint Louis was like the jumping off place for people,
The eastern you ass, you were gonna like take the overland track to the West Coast, Saint Louis, the gateway city, bull coming there from all over, not a lot of organic unity to Dick unity, so many new comers, so many people from so many other places and they outlaw cross dressing. San Francisco, boomed on mining cities like it, went from like four thousand people to fifty thousand people willing to SAM, it's just like boob outlaw processing. another gold rush mining boom, instant city Chicago, which reserve I would now call an intermodal transit hub for railroads. Steam, sheriffs and great lakes, navigation is like its Chicago was becoming a really rapidly growing heterogeneous city Houston, the Texas Memphis Tennessee these were the
cities. It wasn't New York City, it was these newer cities experiencing rapid growth during rapid industrialization. Where are? You suddenly have lots of people who don't know each other living in close proximity to one another? And that's where you get Anti cross dressing laws. stay to arm chair experts. If you dare, we are supported by native, when we were just talking the other day about showering a big debate on showering the debate of twenty twenty one. What I forgot to add to you is like I just feel like made rising or whoever you're right that deodorant takes care of yeah. The only place, I'm concerned about of swathed with native ice as you know, like cocoanut vanilla, the ads for ailing I only fresh native cares about the products she put on, your ah there about stopping the stink the right way, the native difference, priority
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at people were living now, always if there was some height of it was there a famous people that you know I'm saying like that's another big does blind spot. an interesting question, because the word transgender is pretty new. It's like its first recorded use It just had nepheline one thousand nine hundred and sixty five, but most people. Think of it's like, oh transgender, that's something that overprivileged liberal white kids at small colleges on the coast. overly concerned with their pronouns made up because they were listening to all of these professors who want just school them engender Idi Ology, unlike fill their heads, full of post structuralist, cobbled a goop, I'm one of those people, but I'll just transgender as a kind of our work to day for being curious about the phenomenon of ginger diversity and complexity. I think anything that falls outside the no durst
bodies to categories two kinds of people, if you say like air, there's more or and you can change categories if you say that that's transgender, so in that sense, Gender is something that is endemic in August, said that one of the things you can just see so easily, when you look cross culturally entranced historically, is like the wide range of ways of human cultures and societies have grouped bodies into categories of people when assign them two different kinship and socio economic functions. So in that sense, train This is always with us any given moment, there's going to be somebody who's like doing a little differently than somebody else, and it's just routine, but do we want to call Joan of arc? We want to call Joan of arc a transman. I don't know if somebody was assigned female at birth, who thought they needed to address says a boy of lead. The troops into battle.
Was she trans? Should I say? Oh, he was transit. This way that we try to use contemporary categories to interpret the meaning of people's lives. In the past year inclined to do so, even more talking you and try and abroad. My thing I yeah, I guess They feel safer. Knowing oh yeah. That's an example of someone who was living now, what we're talking, about today. I just want to add growing up. I was taught to things like transvestite may you dressed as another under in transsexual meant that you either had begun. In some processes to transition, and then that was the full scope of what was told to me, which I know now is not even a term.
that's kind of the way you would usually here at transvestite means cross dressing and transsexual means. You're cuttin appeared your junk and get shot up with hormone, so that's the common way of thinking about it and where that word, trans gender, how it was taken up by just comb communities of gender variant people, is that there were all sorts of folks out there who said like well, I'm not a transvestite dislike to me that to know the kind of applies, I erotic or even kinky kind of practice of prosperous, four fetishistic reasons: the Psycho Pathology and an also saying? But you know, I'm not attend sexual, as I like my anatomy, about what's different, is mine, sense of being a man or a woman, or a sense of what our main social relations with other people. How do I want them?
talk to me like how do I want them to relate to me, which pronouns do I want them to use for me and that kind of middle ground? I think, between the idea of a transvestite them as a temporary kind of short term change of gender through clothing and trends, sexual is on being like our highly medical, ized and capitalize procedure for like changing your body permanently to accomplish a permanent change in your social status that transgender, initially meant the boy would change something about my chin there might be a longer term way. It might, and of some kinds of medical association, but maybe not, although you know the whole unshod, and so that way of using transgender darts to become common in the later nineteen sixties until throughout their lives
seventies and eighties up to around the early nineteen nineties. It's like you, start to see a yet a newer meaning of the word transgender that some people started saying like while the eyes not transvestites on one and two tat on the other, with Trans. Gender in the middle, like it's all transgender, we all just exists somewhere on a spectrum of possibility, is like it's that middle ground as the whole thing yeah, yeah transgender also became politicized and the early nineteen nineties. Before that, It was either a term that some medical people might want to use, but that was mostly used within Trans command. These two mean that not transsexual, not transvestite, that around ninety ninety one. Ninety two largely through the work of a leftists activist, Leslie, fine Burg. He wrote this Cobb Transgender Liberation Movement, whose time has come Leslie S
buddy, who was explicitly marxist thinking, like their dying word to her. I want to be remembered as a revolutionary communist and they happen to be trance, and they started using that word transgender as a move, much whose time has come almost to mean a kind of a pen, gender, everybody who is socially oppressed because of gender, whether you're like assist gender female person who I can't get access to reproductive health care contrast, option or whether you are in a feminine gave manner, whether you're a trance person or what have it's like. If you are oppressed because of the way you express your gender, are the way you understand it. You're on our team, yeah, while in again my own evolution of it like, as I said, being just told there are these two options: transsexual and transvestite. Then, as starting here interviews with more Trans people,
hearing an interview on a really fascinating, I want to say, was a radio labour, something with it but who said, oh I'm, sometimes I'm female, someday by male, like it switches, I have different hormone schedules, olive periods, right enterprises, and then I have periods we identify with that and they mean going ok, even resists the urge to go like well. Ok, I get added some someone who identifies is female and a story is so. I think what happens for people is some anxiety that there never gonna wrapped their heads around it right leg. Is you learn more information you like? Ok, I think I got this and then no others, more information. I guess the real pleaded people just be like trade surrender the notion that you're gonna have finally figured anything out, maybe as part of the equation. I think that's a great chair. I think that is like respectful curiosity,
I think, stands us in good stead. Whenever we deal with questions of different people are different from one. And so like. How do you deal with that difference? You want to like walk up and tell that person who's different from you exactly what you think about them, and why and what the meaning of their life is, because that's what you think or do you like? That's different, and I think if you approach that difference with a sense of respectful curiosity, I think people are often quite willing to share something if it's like, you would encounter. Some, He lives in a different culture and their performing some religious ritual or preparing food. in some way that you use, they don't even know what the hell it's about, and you want to ask- and I think, if you're not couching, that as kind of em it's like do why're you putting that disgusting. plant, the product in your mouth, yeah. There's a genuine curiosity and desired to know about people. I think people generally want to tell you who and what they are.
about. We desire rate that, like you said the word anxiety, I do think that Trans people, when they are visible or perceptible to other people as transit, some people, can feel anxious about that and you said earlier on, so I don't want to get your pronouns wrong. All I don't want to say the wrong thing sit like there's that kind of social anxiety, but at a deeper level I think some people can find the awareness, that someone has had a different identity than they worser. Expecting that can be like really profoundly threatening at a deep cyclical level for the person who encounters the Trans person psychic can result in murder the trans, panic defence. It's like some eyes open up with some transfer man who did not disclose her trans status and then I he finds out anything so that makes me gang have to kill you now because, like us are meant to shore up my masculinity so like that anxiety is real. I think it goes back to the thing I was trying to
a earlier about what our cultural beliefs are. That Trans people fly in the face of lot of dominant constructions of what counts is real and true. At its. I know you were born where the penis, so you must be a man and anything you do as just a cosmetic alteration as like you're still that thing, because its nature or its guides and yeah, it's a trance people dealing with non trends, ginger people's anxiety about us, the debts of Heaven. left. All that's like we talk about all the time. We're like Monica has the comfort the people who inadvertently been raises around her and then apologize, and then they get so sad that they then analyses she had first take it. you gotta covered them. It's about other people becoming comfortable woods
groundlessness yeah. It's like the idea of the stable we sex. The body is like a foundation for everything else, and you kicked that foundation out. People are flailing around and dont know how to think and feel under panicking, literally flailing flashing out sometimes, and if you could just like well, you can swim. Can you be comfortable and move through of liquid fluid environments in a way that site you back in a panic, he learned to swim around transit ass. Well, I think it's relevant to go through some, the layers right now, because there are so many happening. So what is you just have people who are bigoted in hateful and data, Gonna be inconvenienced with learning pronouns there's like one category of objection, then there is another category of the anxiety you're talking about which maybe I experience which is like. I don't want to defend this person and now I'm tariffs Damn going to do exactly that right. So I have some anxiety about. I worked with someone who transition and we
to a baseball game, and I said you guys at one point: I was like I got in my hand or foot. While we see you guys know. I can't I want to tell her. I only you guys, even if I'm talking to my wife and my daughter's whatever so that's one for me, but I do the same thing. Ok, I gotta get, but there's another thing that you were just kind of hinting at, which needs to be acknowledged and thought about, which is why a mere neurons right. So when we see someone get hit with a to buy, for it gives us a feeling, because we know what that feels like that's why physical comedy works a movie. So for me, as a I who grew up in blue Collar Michigan Eighties? If I see in some one else that they are living out loud? This thing I was in terror of of appearing to be, I do have a little pain, like my own sense of security, is like oh no, this person's doing things can get you the playground, I'm uncomfortable, because it's actually triggering this mirror neuron fear I have in so like
things at work and I'm not even aware of per se, but it's in there. I thank you for sharing that my response again kind of glad to say like that's. U not me yeah I want to be altered clear. I am not offering excuses, I'm off Marine like explanation? What people should be running through their mind? Why am I having a feeling of anxiety? Is it? This is a better that this until we identify think which of those things it is. We can't really address them personally, so yeah, I'm just trying to explore. Like the many things you could be feeling Then Sir chance were personal growth. I would say that I thought I had this reaction and when, I have this reaction. What about that is me? Why am I triggered by that?
and to me like that, gets to the respectful curiosity, peace again, caraway somebody say like. Ah then, I just totally had thy head trip about something and the site that I can hear. I can hear you say what you just said: no a gag I get it. I also feel different is like I also had was just call it a boy. even though I didn't identify with it, so see Logically, this is where I got slotted. That's what I was exposed to aside for May dealing with my sense of being trained guy at the negotiate exactly those same stigmas, the same kinds of violence. Complicated thing for me was going Michael, yeah gay, but not like that you know like I've, always been oriented towards women just like that has been my thing and it just my relationship. Challenges were being involved with straight women who, at some point like this, isn't working
this year actually wanted me to be the guy here, and I mean to you cause I'm at last be does different, and that was a hard thing to kind of come out of bouts or people were like a failure. Subway oh wrong word not adds I homo here, but it just like that's not right, and then you can't blame them, cause you're not out to the right. Maybe a weird request to insult me frankly, ok, I want you to get this insult right, a diner putting my God Oh my god. I really, I hope this doesn't some patronising, but I'm like in awe of that. You could grow up with all those things stacked on you and have found an incredibly productive path, because I think we also need we acknowledge is like the limitations that our neatly Anu, which is employment, employment, one, there's gonna be a thing. That's gonna be a challenge relationships. be a challenge family than say
Do you family? That's gonna, be a chance, like all the core, her stones. That would prevent someone from becoming or age attic like I did there not there. I do think it's a huge triumph when people thrive from that cauldron, I don't find that patronising at all. It's like you recognize something about challenges that another person can face that maybe you didn't face. I do think that one of the things that are most like about being trans oppression in their something like very deeply significant and enlivening about it. For me, that's the way I have said it Some of my public kinds of talks is that I think that Trans people, for the sake of our own survival, have discovered that Rule change is really possible things that you think are carved. Stone are not things that you think you're just like that
just what reality is like is not that there is a possibility for deep transformation. And how we understand ourselves in the world and our relationships to life on earth, to the cosmos that there's something about being trends? You discover, for the sake of your own survival, how deeply different things can be and If we, as Trans people have a function in society you right now it is basically to say to others. This is a capacity that is within all of us. is like trances a resource. For no wing that even at that, a scale of change is possible. We can become otherwise. I know this. I know this and my flesh, it is spiralling and then then, of course, because I'm a cynic made me think of another reason: people are probably triggered by trans folks. As so many of us aren't lives. Our true cells in the true selves There is an even a huge hurdle to live archers.
And we know that and so on. see someone that trans? Recognising the fuckin confidence it takes to be true to yourself is probably also triggering for people. I think that could be. I feel like so much of the ways that I am trends in the world are also like we're deeply informed by my kind of like hip Enos. My bohemian smile like having lived most of my adult life in the San Francisco Bay area that there is part of it is just not like y'all. Just chill what do you care somewhat she's like take this? Let me do you have a little knowledge on your tongue? It's like it's! Ok, let's go! That is my sense of being transits, like oh honey, you are so wound up, and I generally just Lake leaded US pool yeah, take off the heavy jacket wall, you know it's funny. Ducas. As I was preparing to talk to you, I did occur to me that you know the left. Is
Its law is in this. By any stretch, I was just thinking about how the left we kind of weapon eyes cross dressing in reference to Jaeger Hoover, which is not even a confirmed thing per se, but the left took great pride. pointing out that he was across dresser like that exposed. What a hypocrite this person was. Trans massaging persists, collagen, yeah, ok, yeah trans massaging, I feel like. I am part of a really do worse in many respects algae BT to community. But I do sometimes see some gay men who are really weird. It out about Trans women because, like they think it's like earlier cut it out your leg, or that there is a fear that they are having or you might have lesbians. I don't know you're, not really a woman. You can't them in this room. There can be Sis gender
Prejudice about Trans people, whether or not that Sis gender personas gayer straight there's like Inter Community cross tensions as well, is sort of like the bigger tensions between the left and the reactionary right yeah? I had left doesn't do as well, sometimes as it should be our can we echo one topic that I'm probably on the wrong side of history of, and I want you to tell me why, of course, so the Olympics, let's just say, for example, that say that Caitlin JANET was Caitlin Jenner in the seventies and she wandered compete against women in the DE calf one an argument against it is this. I do recognise the right of Caitlin Jenner to be who she is in there she's an athlete beheld the compete, but I also think it potentially comes at the expense all women, so I see it as prioritizing one person's right over. Perhaps every woman,
dedicated our life to the De Caslon, so I'm can be by my position on it as being protective of women, and so but I would just say is the way that your framing at is that you're defining woman assist gender woman, like you just said, Caitlin Jenner and women and women will be harmed by the presence of a trans person who I'm excluding from the category of woman I accept two. She is but she's, not a woman. Could I just had a woman is, does things of which has pointed that out? The other thing is that I would say that feeling is rooted in the societies that We have about bodies that call into question the dominant culture, all sense of like biology, here's what anchors someone in social category, some of the conversation that comes up about Trans women and women's sport and so are you base police saying well you're a trance guy
You're not gonna hold up to a real man, so it doesn't matter if you can peak as you don't threaten anything, whereas o because of my beliefs about masculinity and male ness. It's like this person could put on addressing pretend to be a woman and compete and this unfair way and there's a way that I hear that sense of. Like the I hear, the fear Kate Jenner could have just said she was a woman and completed in the Catalan and blown people away. It's like that's not structurally any. Different than the argument about like what we can't have like gender neutral rest does that mean like Trans women, can't use the women's role because it could just be a guy who puts on, dress and then, as a predators like he could just say he is a woman for that day and it's like Boop Loophole and so like the idea of linking the presence of a trance person to the notion of harm. Two others. It's just like something. I really want a strongly pushed back on and then the other question sakes
the anxiety or confusion I think or resistance is about which body properly belongs to which category and that the proper body in the proper category is the thing that guarantees fairness. Somehow, lot of the conversation about Trans women and women sports is well. That wouldn't be fair because you have a biological. At age, where your imagining that it somebody who this aid normative leases, gender male person who is claiming femininity in a way that produces something that is an equitable. But it's like it's a really complicated question. It's about how long does somebody ban on hormones what kinds of body modification have they gone through? You know like what's the event like, what's actually being tested its
Do we have women sports as a way of light, creating lights, special protected preserves for people who were imagined to be unequal and can't compete against men, theirs your questions I would have about Wolf. Why are you in so, but not you personally, but like the idea of Light Oh, the Trans woman in women's sports. That's not fair, but I put about like differences, unlike what class based differences and training facilities or like a rich countries do better in the Olympics because they have been trading facilities. It's like you want to say it's not fair for people to compete across class differences. Won't, I wonder if we could start, though, with what we agree upon, which is the goal is fairness, so the things you just pointed out about class those are issues, and those are things that we would hope to neutralize. That in itself is something we would strive to flat that different
and do we both agree that there is a several standard deviations and the outcomes of male and female categories in the current Olympics, the weightlifting record the wrestling the sprint the mild. We would agree that there is a big difference, the outcomes of these two categories? Yes, and I would also say that range of physical capacity is with in the categories man and woman or male and female are greater than those of aggregate differences between men and women. and so it is not necessarily that being mayo. There's gonna be an advantage, in all circumstances like there's, though, wide range and comparing the total population of the planet, where comparing the Olympians and there's a big big difference between the squat record for females, then that is format.
ok, but what you're imagining is that the Trans women participating in that sport is really of mail and that you're having some idea about like what their physical capacity is without knowing what their history of embody has been without knowing things about their musculature without knowing whether hormone regimen has bitten. There's an assumption about what it means to have a trans woman in women's sport, and basically what it boils down to him sounds like it's complicated is not at all. I really had star question and that there are people I mean, the inside a the end of the Olympics committee. There are very complicated and size and not always a they think, accurate or useful ways of saying who qualifies to be in which category there were protocols and plays
that were agreed upon by athletes and administrators about like who can properly compete in which category and so a lot of the push back that were seeing right now on particularly trans girls in girls and women sports. It doesn't come from experts in the field to the people who know the most about it. It's like it's coming explicitly from christian fundamentalist people like it like alliance, defending families is like this like the same language and the same legislation is being introduced and state every state, every state after stayed using the low hanging, fruit of anxiety about Trans people, to say that there is a promise I quit. Where are the cases of people pretending to be trans to compete and women's sport
who are winning or like we're all of those cases of trans women who are like blow in the competition out of the water, like usually not the case. stay tuned for more armchair expert if we are supported by athletic greens, is the most comprehensive daily nutritional beverage. I have ever tried. The Only leverage over travelled with I travel with manslaughter greens gotta. Have it gotta get it in the morning? He gives me around ill zip, I actually physically feel it and I feel, like I have more energy and clarity adjust. Perfect entirely uses every day. Yes well, and also you like, doesn't even doubles. Ah so this is for him like this. Is the one stop shop there rounds it all out was only stressors in life, it's difficult to maintain effective nutritional habits, angular bodies and nutrients. It needs to thrive, busy schedules portion
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but I can't wait to spend the weekend grilling chilling and watching some NASCAR, nothing says Americollect Memorial Day and NASCAR you, you have got to watch this race on Sunday to tune into the Coca COLA. Six hundred in Charlotte North Carolina this Sunday at six p M Eastern on Fox, again NASCAR at the Coca COLA. Six hundred this Sunday, six pm eastern on Fox, I totally agree with you, and I just want to point out, though, that I dont believe it by an airy response to this? So yes, there's on that is probably just out to penalize anything. That is not, as stated in the Bible, but there's someone like over here. Like me, I'm not challenging whether Caitlin Jenner is a woman. I am not sure I am not challenging her identity. But what I am asking is, if
Caitlin Jenner was Caitlin General in the seventies and you this whole field of young women. dedicate their lives. You can we look at that specific example, and is that not problematic to the women if the kind of the fantasy informing the questioners like one of them General just put on a short skirt and said I want to run and I'm not even giving them an intention to cheat plot is Caitlin General, came out ass, a teenager and had been on hormones for five years and had had everything that and see a Europe as a college athlete or the Olympic Organizing Committee had said like a yet. These are the criteria for trans people to compete in women's sport. he had done. All of that, wouldn't even be a question. The question comes up and how one imagines that Trans bought in what I'm saying is. I trans bodies are really complicated. It's not one size fits all that people think
answer a question when they say. Oh, that's a trans person, but I think I just raises more questions as like it can be. When you say translator you may like being male, gives you an advantage. You mean like it's like more muscle testosterone and I think what year young about is TAT, yeah yeah does stars, drone creates more muscle mass than estrogen solely to by somebody like cast your samina. Who, like is not true and has called on, could naturally occur at levels of testosterone and you guys are ok well, actually we have to exclude her because what we mean when we say woman is somebody who's, testosterone levels fall within like this range. it doesn't matter. How does she think of yourself What was she assigned at birth? What's reproductive anatomy legislate men means this test tasks their own level range and so, if at all
Hence woman meets that range. Why should she be excluded because she had an endogenous means of delivering testosterone for a certain period of her life? I do think maybe like moving forward. Gender might become less and less of the brackets for the Olympics. I think it should be more this bracket is. This couple of testosterone this bracket as this love and some men and women like it, might be all systems
in one? It might be also women, but there's doubling and to be some overlap, and I think this idea of fairness when it comes to super athletes is crazy. Like Michael Jordan is biological IE, eight more apt, basketball player, then rob and they're both man, but he hasn't advantages, a biological advantage just by the what he has been given, and so it's already unfair, like there's already gonna, be levels of it's not like. If, if all the basket players did exactly what Michael Jordan, they be, Michael, Jordan he's just better. So I do think these, like blackening in men and women, may start dissipating as this conversation continues and that there can be different brackets
by which we categorize people that are more fair. I like what you're saying there about way that, if the basis of categorizing people differently is to create fair, thus oppressed, different registers of whatever kind, then for me the idea that knowing that somebody is Trans automatically tells you which bracket they're supposed to be in it. Just doesn't and that's partly as like. We imagine, I don't have a simple talking to the public way of talking about it, the site we imagine one sector, gender is like one thing that it is hoped that it is monetary, Terry and that, if we know the answer to that, then it's like than we know how to categorize them And part of what trans nurse shows, I think, is that we routinely compacts a lot of different things together. That could be pulled apart in like Canada,
What's your chromosomes ask, what's you're hormonal says: what's your culture of rearing, what levels of training have you had there's all kinds of things that can be difference about bodies and about preparation for a certain kind of competition? and the idea that we know the correct answer, because we know whether or not someone is trans or even whether someone is a man or a woman is just that status doesn't maybe like give The information that you're looking for that relevant to make something fair, fair right, yeah, although this is the question of Moscow, DAS belong and ask it. So there's another part of me that also thinks there. So if I have limitations on me. Given my identity, there are things I can and cannot do that. I have accepted some limitations.
coming to Trans woman, you know and you except I'm not gonna, carry a baby in me currently what today's technology that is something I just have to accept. That part of this, I'm not gonna, carry a baby in me, I am proposing, is something that you could accept as Trans. Is I'm not going to compete in the Olympics in them women's category? Like our there's some things, like, are not too much to ask someone do except for me, America get it's a good question. I think you're talkin bad apples and oranges like the idea of lichen reproductive capacity versus social below. hanging there I would say in some ways I don't feel like the right person to ask because I'm not a competitive the athlete and
I would say that I dont think that any kind of person should be excluded from a kind of activity and so do not even make it a trance question. As I quote, you do about intersects people like cast her, so many who seems to be intersects. You visa, like oh competitive sports, are only for people who embody these like binary categories of sex, gender in some normative manner, and so dealing with that question like if we're gonna, categorize people, recognising that there can be a wide range of physical capacity. today. Some qualities with an category as well as across categories seems important, and it's like what Monica was talking about with basketball players is The NBA doesn't discriminate against short people's just like it's a topper sins game and is like my god. It's like you got game and if you don't better hope, your staff Currie right and they also on exclude people from being too good,
read like they're, not like. Oh, these people are extremely good, so they shouldn't be included, Nobody should have a hang time that long nose is not fair. I would recommend talking to people like Katrina, courtesies and Rebecca Jordan Young throughout this really great a testosterone recently or like a sociologist of sports Travers, who teaches Simon Fraser University. Advance Coover like there are people who have really expert knowledge about Tran and sports, and I may have occurred at getting my crampness aligning our think about sports alive. There could be people who can I give you much better arguments than I could run much more knowledgeable position, but what I would say is that I think are a lot of the freak out happens, is Michael Jordan and Breast say you want to play in the NBA. Theirs is fear. There's this fear of, like somebody will verbally claimed to be something that they actually We are not right. I'm trying to work through this. For me and I'm saying I'm
Denying that Caitlin Generous is a woman in so look. This is one of the hardest topics. In the whole realm of the topic, I wasn't suggesting that you know The severally were having that fear, but that I think the fantasy at informs. A lot of the freak out over Trance people in sport is imagining light you, maybe your colleague the worst case scenario. If what, if somebody just says to day, I am a woman and you're gonna, go and compete in a way that is unfair and that the common sense thing would be to say: oh yeah, clearly like that persons not really that they are there, claiming it for some illicit reason of some kind. and so common sense says. Well, yes like, maybe we should like exclude trans people from those, because it's not fair. What I'm trying to say is that real trance people, things that change their body is often that are about
fitting in and belonging to the social category that they identify with, and so it becomes a really technical and expert question when you say woman for purpose and competing an event, acts it's like what kinds of Gaza be pursued, specific, what Such things are, you saying, are salience knowing somebody's train, status or sex status. Does necessarily in and of itself give you the information that you're looking for. I just a related example that thought about sport. it's like I've, seen a lot of chatter on Trans Twitter, about vaccination, slightly say why are you male or female, gelato transom are available? Why are you asking questions that significant Well, they ve seen some here. Billy pregnancy complication sure whatever and like we're. Ok then say: why are you pregnant, ah well,
Even there was a different outcome with the european version. They found six cases of it in the Johnson Johnson yeah work gives blood clots to women, and so at that point maybe it becomes medically significant to know whether you are a trance almoner assists woman like just asking the question: are you are a woman like Miller doesnt, actually give you the information And so what are you asking? And why and that sometimes, only, I would say, trans and intersects people who vote there's a distinction here that you need to be paying attention to that. Your question is actually not sophisticated enough to capture the information that both you and I agree. I'd, be saying Senora and so like asked me that question again. What do you want to know what it's like your people? asking Monaco where she's from and she's like Georgia, knowing no, but where are you from
Where do I know where my family's wrong, when you want to know where you are, and I do that Georgia I was raised in a military families like where are you from a safety member was a born where they lived most of my life fry where they live now and so Surely it cannot even asking me at anyone ever supervised in Wales, where I'd ever on yeah yeah? What are you trying to get what he gets like, and I think the trans question is often that listen, tend to make assumptions about what man, woman means and we make assumptions about what trans Means, and so did I talk about. Should trans women participate in women's sport is like that such abroad? rush road thing that needs to be unpacked, and so many different ways like yeah sure our opinion would vary as mine would all over the map. If you kept laying out different examples yeah. This is like that cheer. Other questions about a curious. comfort and anxiety. It's like we want gender should be a clear in a clear and now we want,
know what the answer is and if we don't know what the answer is where uncomfortable somebody's gonna die and maybe it's you so yeah just like getting that sense of comfort with the uncomfortable mass in the sense of curiosity, about difference, the sense of a u exhibited so clearly at the beginning of The podcast is kind of like I'm just learning about this educated myself, I'm curious and that you're coming at it from this place of respectful curiosity. So it's like, I think, if there's more of that attitude, society about transnational. Why do you think my mere presence? Not you, but like one is like my mere existence on the face of the earth, something lights gotta make people's heads explodes while on, there are. Resources are their places that people who want to help support as their a current issue that you want to shine a light on before we, let it the big undertaking, Amity
story and by training, and so I'm not necessarily the person who is the totally plug dead. Like tat of the front, islands of activism, our different organizations and all of the different movements making deserve a more global kind of comment right now. Trans issues are one of the hot button issues and the culture wars. There is the way concerted, anti trance backlash. That is happening right now. It was twice fourteen that Laverne Cox is on the cover of time magazine and the cover story says: is America at a transgender tipping point, and there was sort of this idea of like oh you're, Trans people, the spunky new minority, showing up claiming their place at the table of social inclusion? Are we there yet? Can we invite the Trans people in tell us your story like that was two thousand and fourteen and twenty, fifteen is city of Houston repealing
discrimination ordnance, because right wing, christian fundamentalists are trying to frame it as a bathroom, or any man at any time can come into a women's robe and harm women and girls. Would you brought that up I have to say that one thing that occurred to me during the height of that my Thinking North Carolina. There was a big dust up about the value in my thoughts There is also this layer of massage any, and I dont mind that that core predator is in the boys is normally the predator. I guess if they had their way this unknown predator who's gonna addresses a woman to go prey on girls that predators now in with the young boys going to the bathroom That's not an issue at all week ended up. So there was a predator who praise on children, but he's no longer The girl children he's what the boy children now so all is good like what are even saying like. What's the outcome of this, how is the person you're theorizing exist, been dealt with by giving them in the boys bathroom right.
You can't even imagine that there could be something called a homosexual rape, Ray I don't want to go there now and encourage people to watch the late in the day, because, again, like me and shamefully so, I've not consume that personal story and getting does see it and care about a lead character in this documentary. Recognising the great danger that she was put through in the courts Now she has to go to a male prison in just a fucking life threatening met as in how anyone could make that decision. Looking at her, it seems so barbaric, in recognising what an incredible mother She was in all these things like. I really recommend people watch there and get kind of a sense of what that experience. Like and continues to be, like Cosette certainly may mean curious. I am glad that at peak the curiosity, and I do think that was a really compelling viewpoint character. I really
created being able to participate in that as a historian like here. Let me help you think, through the transit, that was my Raul dash. The show was like. Let me like, connect the dots It was a little ray. I love your participation in it and met really made a farming has. did I I'm glad it work for you and I think the directors, Nick and Zachary did a great job. I think two plus brothers did a great job. I think they're so good as telling sophisticated, stories in a really appreciated that, if you're audiences interested at reading more trance history, I have this little book called transgender history. very little fairy literal, it's a gateway, dried. Said Arthur Starter, train, gender history, yeah, I'm gonna read that there you go I'm gonna need, I'm gonna buy it. When I hang up with you well, I just learned before I got on the calm with you today when I was checking email between
dissertation defence that I had to sit on and getting on this podcast that my publisher, let me know that target wants to profile my book as one of their pride month, box that they're gonna be on anywhere for target, so you can go to target and by my book I will. I will love going to target as one of the? U dont. We are I as a great adventure every time a heap accessible design. You know well, Susan Striker precede so much your time. And your patients with me- and I was really fun and informative, so thank you dogs. Monica thank you so much for having me on I love to I'm an audience. Research feeling will talk to you any time. Ok, wonderful! We will do it again. think. I care
and now my favorite part of the show, the back check with my saw my men? hi, you know, is really interesting. Second, Emma bringing it up, but the whole thing yesterday with the drifting on that track in the car grasped her when I would Phineas I was sweating bullets and I was exhausted like out. I was like I had sprinted now make the physicality in this car is not sure why, that yeah housing or is it just the adrenaline of how, on the edge of this thing is shared and my heart rates really high, and then it was on it.
My holding my breath. Daring gonna hold your breath during stressful thing. You said: Anthea Jonah ears were celestial. Boxers learn to breathe all these athletes debris through it. Neither Armenia's holding my breath anyways exhausted today. Physically. Can I work out strenuously all the time you do and I dont getting exhausted. I don't feel worn out from the wound, but I'm feeling worn off witness you don't sound very compassionate about it's just I don't know what to say. I'm sorry, oh yeah, that's what it's a concrete! We are all done, you're all done, shooting your show very exciting for you, because it was a lot in the last six weeks. Was a law in general to show was an overwhelming interest? Was the lab airs over top gear? America? Nevertheless, push to finish the season before, but also to do other things got a little crazy, yeah like out of town every single week, the air for five days that fuckin sue
is a bright. Took the suit mind you, I love it away. Luggage wish there were still sponsor, pulled the away the God out of my trunk, and then I carry it up the stairs to the bedroom, which I do every week a couple times so fuckin happy too I have to do that here, just living out of a suitcase. I love it here, a person who I wonder if we already talked about this on your we probably have. Are you a person who, when you get to the hotel, you open your suitcase, you take everything out, you hang it. You put your watch in the drawer. Do you do that? Or do you leave everything in your suitcase? It depends what kind of trip I'm taking so if it's over Haitian. I do I unpack interesting. I never knew you don't ever do I never do. Oh, my god, I just leave. very thing at my suitcase. Sometimes I try to. Partitioning like these are dirty or sometimes I'll, make a pilot dirty on the floor, I like to make several piles authorities there. We start by by my suitcase in the neck is confusing.
Can I put him in the corner, and there is little clumps of dirty closer varies lowering of an idea. like hanging, I'm always afore. I think I was ever fear that our likely to leave it there, I've done of of the big trend to close and be organs, can say only welcome the people of different modes, most in hotels, I'm like Charlie, perfect and Charlie. He It likes to arrive and hang up everything and make us time he's: gonna, guy, YAP, meticulous sky, very hungry guy. I don't know I just made me think you know, I don't even think I don't think I've ever gone in New York on vacation. I dont think I bought a plane ticket to New York. Yeah other than when we do live shows, but I consider that work to our I've, not just men like let's go to New York for a week
I know I feel like I should do their only I'm dying to go. I think- oh, my god, this is so except for my to see how it could be. I got on board and opportunity. Oh my gosh will come out. I had offered an opportunity to supposedly cook with you hero to cook, with my chef, mentor and mentor, and they require what does require me to go to New York, but we were talking in and she said your and our lay rightness against, but I'm dying to come to New York. That would be a great x you, so I might be going soon and Ike on that topic, you hosted a girl's dinner party on Monday, which you do often like ants. Every couple we yeah exactly
an Kristen came home and she was just raving about your meal that you admit you had done a salmon in the house against my better wish in utero taught me out of it. Thank God I better Leanna tunnels times and she said it was just unbelievable. The salmon it was announced and roman recipe. I mean every single thing: I've made of hers is good. Even the fish that made the apartment smell, the food was good and, as my apartments far and this salmon did not make anything smell, that's great news. It was a a salmon, a brown butter. Her Risa saw who issues it's like a pepper paste Bailey had proposed a lover, patients, a paste, and then I have like a little gem salah with Shall it and lemon, and I mean some Pharaoh on the side. Roaming, firmly united under my party's, because also the peoples in the air.
And I used a garlic stock to make that fair, establish the she said it was off the charts, delicious shoes raving I'm glad anyway, New York city, like that, we approve armchair, prove our rights, then soon Susan Striker, this gray. We needed this. We haven't had any trans people on our show, like you said it in the intro. Both of us have some blind spots. Rounded around Trans issues, so this was grey. I'm really glad we did this winter blinkers on his hairy. What exactly? Ok, what's anthropology tree that you mention it quickly? Scientific study of the measurements were portions of the human body. You said they stopped. Right yeah, like you, could have major DIN anthropology tree, and now you can't there's no.
such things, some of those things are being done, but generally with early hominids and stuff, or not measuring skulls of Europeans or anything right to determine anything rang I'll say that it is Turkey, because there are Are things that are fascinating? Men are learned about different populations of people. I guess it's just that the intentions of always been so shady vat. in some ways, the baby may have gone out with the bathwater what what what do you use for that was taken, well like yours, something the way that they know that native Americans came from Asia, because Asians have dished incisors and european and Africans, have triangular kind of by custody, incisors, we feel on the inside of your in size or you'll feel a projection or a ridge. I bet you dont have a distance iser,
Our really? No, I dont know if that means short this this two year than pointing to Asians and the insight its concave. On me. It comes out in a triangle and on every year opinion and I'm every african way on this point. You I'm beyond the inside lines, pointy on the inside there's a hidden pointy right, where I hope everyone is listening is feeling there in size are right now, Maybe you scrape up on the inside of your insides Armenia. My immediately gets caught on this protrusion, Patricia that's Asians do not theirs is dished its concave, its smooth mine, is curved. I would need to feel yours, but I'm pretty sure you have a protrusion and the backside of that in size. Are it's not concave? A kind of is up and you get to that. Ha and there's a protrusion correct as not pointy. Ok, I would have to put my thumb in your mouth
she'll do anyways, whether you have it or not, Asians have a size, or I think, I'm gonna pointy. Ok in native Americans. They too have a distance iser. So that is how we can conclude. This must have derived originally from this asian Popular, that's core. That's identifying distinctive features of populations which can be misused. It can be weapon. Ized, yeah, different groups of people have different olfactory glance. It's interesting does it do in this case, the outcome, as we figured out, were native Americans origin. There. Certainly, but I just looked up the researchers discovered. Almost all native Americans have shovelled incisors same thing, you're saying I think, prior to the arrival of European
today. Nearly forty percent of asian people share this dental freight o others of a hippie. Let a watch me too, that it didn't. They pay a price for not having the extra tearing mechanism way. This is the picture I'm seeing I'm not understand here, but it's a picture of a bunch, a right it out to you that no, showing us inside even just the incisors. So here's the there's nothing inherently wrong, with figuring out the distinguishing characters of a population of people when you use those distinguishing characters. To summarize superiority are inferior, there's a big problem, haystacks disease. You know finding out that jewish people are at high risk of tastes, acts. That's like that's a distinguishing characteristic of that population. The air and helpful in finding out,
All. We should monitor this in the genetic brief you get when you're about to have a kid of both parents carry tee sex mutation. We should watch for that in others. There is tons of reasons. You'd want to know the differences between populations. that's true. Susan talks about sumptuary law, sumptuary law but any law designed to restrict excessive personal expenditures in the interests of preventing extravagance and luxury. The term denotes regulation restricting extravagance and food, drink, dress and household equipment, usually on religious or moral grounds, or should the Amish would be like the perks of sumptuous walls. Here, no electricity, exactly she said, didn't didn't the Trump Administration ban. Trans people and the military Biden removed that ban. Yes,
Trump and transgender choose from openly serving, but courts put the ban on hold and then, in January Joe Biden overturned former President Donald Trump Ban on transgender troops openly serving in the? U S, military I saw my miss. I misunderstood that when it was happening, I now realized ha ha. I thought the objection was that the military would have to pay for gender reassignment surgery. I thought that's what was kind of on the table that the issue was how biogas hasn't even part of it. Maybe it's part of that. I don't know, but that's not what I'm saying. Ok, that's a dicey question. Do you think someone let's say the year you of course can be openly trans in the military in the military has an obligation to handle your medical expenses. What do you think the ethics are of someone joining the military just to get that expensive procedure proof?
What people join the military to get free college. So if your people are already joined the military to get those bonuses and reasons you? U, everyone who die for the country, maybe is she deserved. I gotta think so you got me that's offers Susie. That well we could talk more about and pics, but we covered it. I think thoroughly- and I had I hope people heard it as a discussion and not a word, drawing lines on what we are, hundreds percent believe and what we don't lose a globally. for me, the air agreements? It was very few and far between, let it happen when you and south- and I debated whether or not the Georgia shooting was a hate cry out. I had some people, you know bless me for that opinion. on social media and then they would virtual what they would say it for. Their point was exactly what He wouldn't say said so, like a hundred
and, if you writing, because your opinion was presented thoroughly the opposition wasn't presented, but it was, it was more than thoroughly presented. It was too against one, and so, when you hear a debate in both sides are covered and we just have a different opinion and None of us know that shooter personally, it's all conjecture of what his motivation was. You shouldn't be offended. You just heard debate. Like you heard non bias? Both sides represented debate lowered the two opposing viewpoints. I don't believe you have a right to be offended at hearing. The opposing debate is on his dumb respect. Lee and the other side is, there was a real effort made to represent the other position. I don't think it's fair to criticise that. I think that's exactly what debate is serving yeah I agree- and so I just want to say we just debated the Olympics with professor- is very skilled
running that side of the argument, and it's ok to hear both opinions yeah, but I think people when we have open debate like that they feel like they want to be part of it. So it's not necessarily like. Sometimes it's anger whatever, but I think it just when you hear some one debate, it's, you personally riled up and makes your own opinions come, so they want to share that. So that's part of what's happening and I would love soon. I totally agree with Monica himself on this, but the attack that I should have been presenting that opinion. I don't Yeah I got yeah yeah, I mean that's part of what we do is present. Both sides I remember it I sent on air and sometimes it's more or less lopsided likes. Often you and I agree on something. So it's not really Miriam hearing the opposition, but in that case now you really got a fair trial, both opinions- and I hope people feel that way about today's debate. Yeah
good, night, good night, so dreams, see you in the morning
Transcript generated on 2021-07-02.