Tristan Harris is a computer scientist, the co-founder & president of the Center for Humane Technology, and co-host of the Your Undivided Attention podcast. Tristan Harris joins the Armchair Expert to discuss the role technology is playing in our lives, how algorithms determine the things we like, and how technology companies need to take on more responsibility. Tristan explains our inability to have trust in a shared information environment, how humans are becoming more unable to choose their own thoughts, and how technology enables us to run away from ourselves. Dax & Tristan discuss how users are more profitable when they’re addicted, anxious, and misinformed and Tristan breaks down the deep dilemma of living in these digital habitats.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome! Welcome to arm chair, expert experts on expert dick rather and I'm John by practiced in mouse. Welcome dick! Rather that's it that's a rough name. I can't leave. I made it this far with that name. I had overcome their adverse city for his city We have talked a bazillion times since we both saw the social dilemma which is on Netflix. We really were infected by, and that of course became a gateway drug to doing rabbit, hole the New York Times bond gas which we loved and so we had an opportunity to talk to Tristan Harris who was front centre in, Social dilemma, and we think you will enjoy him immensely Tristan is a computer scientist that spent three years as Google design ethicist developing a framework of technology, should ethically steered the thoughts and actions of billions of people from screens. He is now co founder and president of the
enter for humane technology, whose mission is to reverse human downgrading and realign technology with humanity is really head honcho on this topic. P is being used, is the what we say. he Lamb Guard the vanguard he really is. He was the first one out there really sounding an alarm and we all are in debt to this a huge ethical, moral, compass, so? Please enjoy Tristan Harris. We are supported by sleep number. The mattress I slept in last night got a beautiful night sleep. My sleep number is eighty right now, which means that my body is healed up nicely and my sleep score IQ was ninety whoa. I love it. You know I've been going a bit earlier and waking up earlier and I'm loving it that's great. Now, quality
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easy. All I got to do is fill the little container up with some hot water put the lid on for a minute, pull it off. Bingo Bango, Bongo, I'm having a beautiful breakfast. What's really exciting. Is that Bob's Reinelt Monica? Has this really really great one to one baking? Flour, that's gluten free and the holidays. They are knocking at the back door. They sure are so I'm gonna have Titi the family chef Baker using a lot of Bob's red mill. So we can have all my treats this holiday season without triggering any gluten intolerance
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I'll still Arizona at the moment, because we believe it or not. My house and everything that I own burned down a recent Santa Rosa fires are now he asked, I've lost everything you normally live in Santa Rosa I normally live in the North Bay. I had moved up to Santa Rosa, which was my deceased family's home during quarantine and pandemic, and then these fires- three weeks ago just took oh my my that's awful yeah, but it's so happening in the middle of when this film has come. And the most important thing I can do for the world is just keep focusing on the film. So that's where my attention is going being the social dilemma, yeah, this echelon we allocate Gregg. I want make sure that I wasn't in the dark about another film we have. Films out right now. Oh, my god, you mini studio mini Major Santa Rosa is Charles Schulz Country right.
That's exactly right. Yeah did any of that stuff burned out any of elegant ice rank. He had built in these two have like a Christmas pageant and stuff. I think they did, and I don't really remember everything there. The airport is named after him, the Charles Stores Airport and there's cute little life size figurines of the peanuts characters. If I recall that's right, all around Santa is in downtown. I think I have a pitch of my then two year old, hugging, the Snoopy statue yeah. Where did you grow up? You grew up in Santa Rosa I provisionally in San Francisco and when I was about eleven, my mother wanted to move up to Santa Rosa to fulfil our dream of writing horses and being near the state parks. When the high school in Santa Rosa and then later back down debates Stanford for college to set a computer science and what happening career wise for mom in San Francisco. Where are you like second generation technology person
opposite. Actually, I was the only one in my family who really even touched a computer, and I was just obsessed as a child born in the year of the Macintosh would be. I was born in nineteen eighty four, so I didn't see the Macintosh ad, but what's really interesting to loop. The story back around is that the co founder of our nonprofit center for humane technology is as Raskin, whose father Jeff Raskin in entered the Mcintosh or started it at least at apple already here and my has been largely defined by. I think the impact of the I can touch on fire childhood and that's a kind of an interesting place to theoretically stuff which is poor. It's a mackintosh again. I'm not super savvy about this, but I will say what used to be seemingly kind of a utilitarian pursuit of people who liked making simple programmes on these early Computers with me,
comes, in my opinion, a culture or a movement. It like transcends that space. A little bit was that your experience with it did a few like Marvin emotional connection. To that thing it actually yeah, I didn't know any of the lower behind the Mcintosh. You know who Steve Jobs was or any hurts Felder Bill Atkinson some of these characters who you know invented and put all of this culture and soul into this computer, but it's fun, because not even knowing that history. I felt this kind of weird Tickle, almost connection to the creativity, in the end? It really was. You know, as well as the saying goes and as we say in the film that the Mcintosh and computers were a bicycle for our minds, they would be giving us kind of leverage for the kind of conceptual creativity and capacity that we could have as human beings, and that's really optimist.
Few of you see a technology that I still believe as possible. We just when a stray with these business models, that kind of pull us into this many dark ages well and then to drill down a little bit on what you just said, which I think to be useful is yes, the bicycle tool. You do a great job of describing that meaning a tool, a rake, a lawn mower. It sits in your shed until you want to use it to perform some tasks that it's going to assist you in that is not how we interact with these tools are smart phones are computers. They are actually he think Jeanne US at all times right when you wake up in a city with a game plan of liking. Let's try to get five six hours on that thing today, no it handles that for you, yeah, that's exactly I mean it's important to state to go back to the Marshall Mcluhan kind of theories of what is media, what is technology and an extension of thinking and action so technologies are extending and reshaping the way we make sense of the world in the kind of actions that we might take. So bicycle is going in.
change your basic sense, making and choice, making the menu of options that might occur to your mind of where do I want to go today, or what do you want to do today, because your bicycle extends that so it's important to say that first However, as you said, a bicycle doesn't have an agenda about what it wants from you right. Right, well I once you to lubricate the chain, occasional air right, optimum level, I guess it's an existential level. It wants to survive, but it doesn't have any means of doing, except by in being able to make you care about that. But you know about nickel doesn't have an avatar voted all like model of each of us that uses trillions of data points to figure out. Predictably, how do I get you to drive more to places like Mcdonald and less to places like parks and playgrounds, because I need to make money from you using me in a very particular way and that's the difference. As we say in the film between a kind of tools is technology environment and an addiction population based technology, Marmot, that's the thing! That's really changed that we talk about it. Lemme? Is that the big
this model of Facebook, Youtube, Tik, Tok, twitter and linked in Instagram, etc. They all depend on us using it in very particular ways that indeed hours a day of screen time, but that's not really the core harm loan. You I'm sure we'll get into this more. It's really the kind of the erosion of the life support systems the make up a society that makes society work because we need our mental health. We need a common of reality. We need shared facts. In truth, we need to have a bit the compassion for each other and One of those dimensions of our society are things that are not in sight of the. Business models, interest and that's really why we have to change the broader system. All right, let's go back to the bike analogy. So, yes, the bike changes culture in that you used to only be able to have lunch or a mile away, whatever you're willing to walk now Five miles away is an option so because the bike,
no agenda. You'll just end up at some coffee shop, or some restaurant and you'll interact with people there and they'll be of all variety because it hasn't selected for anything. And then you might like the food or not, then you may read your bike to another place, but you are generally in charge of oh, I didn't What was going on at that coffee shop, but I kind of like what was going on that one you're still the driver's seat, whereas the a I bike is going to take to a coffee shop. It knows you'll like cause, it's so so good at predicting what you will like because it is memorized every choice you ve made over the last ten years on line right. I think people lose sight of. We don't have hundreds of assent of what we are like as much as our computer does, because we don't have the capacity to even remember all the times we made decisions, but Seen all of our decisions accumulate
over ten years. It is very easy to recognise a pattern within that. If you can see it from that, thirty thousand foot view right. So we know ninety percent of the time. If you're making a choice to eat at three p m- and you didn't need a breakfast- we know pretty much you're going to the shittiest place imaginable, and so on and so forth, right and so the bike is now telling you what you like and predicting what you will like and it'll rule out ever giving you something you don't like, which is so often how we grow in evolve and we don't think we like a french strong, but a friend drags us and then we lo and behold, Escargot is not bad. It shouldn't be good, but by God, so my maybe try it now. I like this. It is exactly and then the question is also: what is the perceptual tool that a bike looks at from us to know what we like, because, for example, let's give the bike an eyeball and let's go like an eyeball called times so. The only way it knows will be like is about the amount of time that we spend their knowledge
say. There's like a certain place that we could go like the conspiracy theory CAFE, and whenever we go to the conspiracy theory cafe you spend five hours there talking to mind blowing people who will tell you about aliens and government conspiracy theories, Cointelpro and Mk Ultra. It's faster. and it keeps you there for hours and hours and hours and lets say the doesn't have any other way to know what you like, except by the time that you spent its erroneous data in that, if its goal is to give you what you want what you want, isn't necessarily what you spend time doing so, first and foremost, I hope there will be arrogant to say, but it would be great if head guy Do you? How often we talk about social dilemma? We just absolutely loved it. It terror, I'd us and we ve also found but great companion pieces that go along with that. I would argue, feels good man is a great kind of companion. Have you seen that documentary? No, I haven't seen it it's about how, the artists who created Pepe. The frog had his
cute little creation that he had done many comic books with, in short stuff got owned by the all right in how what role Pepe the frog had in the last election, which is so fascinating. So that's a really good do detailed account of how this stuff can work and drive. People will further and further and further into a increasingly fundamental militaristic, you name it direction and then have you heard the rabbit hole, a New York Times, podcast rabbit hole? I know Kevin very well, too. Okay great, so loved it. We loved it like seeing your movie, then those other two for us cause, critical mass we're just like. Oh, my goodness, while while while, while while an Enigma, give you a lot of credit, because I do remember when you first to hit the scene giving interviews. I met and it was
seven years ago, when did you quote effect from Google yeah a world internal. The Google, the first presentation that I was sort of calling a moral how the arms was back and twenty thirteen, and can it twenty twelve time period that the first head talk and sixty minutes, peace, which is probably the biggest public exposure, was in twenty? Seventeen says about four years ago, four years ago, and I remember at that time, seeing you thinking many things one. While this guy must have some integrity cause he's most certainly said goodbye to many millions of dollars. By doing this, that was kind of my first I'm very, financially driven in fearful, so that was my first thought so It was a wow he's explained that we've transitioned into an attention economy which, at that time was a bit of an abstract premise. To me: and I thought well, how does one monetize time spent it's still going to be a weird economy but sure in the Yuval Harari sense, it's all a story and whatever we buy into work. Okay, it wasn't until I noticed Netflix started publishing.
As a result of how good their platform was, how many hours had been spent watching Adam Sandler movies right. So it was an insane amount of ours. I can't remember now, but it was in the hundreds of millions or maybe even a billion hours spent whatever it was. I thought to myself. Oh wow, now I get it Adam Sandler has a value, that's very quantified because billion hours has been spent staring at him and, unlike ok, he was right. That was about a year and a half after I first heard you talk in again. I still and understand the full implications of what you are saying, and I can imagine that a union- full implications and then be that you could have even told us at that time, because I didn't even understand and intention economy so backing We have to work in a google as an emphasis right. You are in charge of what the ethics of the products are. As is that an accurate description? Will you I mean it?
make sure you don't overstate my level of authority at you know, I was concerned about how do you design products that are going to influence two billion people's attention? What do you want? You are not like that. You know, the power of a god like Zeus, but if you bump your elbow, you might scorch half the earth if you're not really thoughtful about. You know where his attention really go in there. Been a role or a name for what I was researching, which is called it the time, design, ethics. How do you ethically design two billion people's sort of your steering, the nervous systems and the kind of paleolithic cognitive biases that we have buried in our brains? How do you ethically push those buttons, because, no matter what choice you make if you use a red notification, color versus a blue notification, color you're going to get very different kind of outcomes with how the human nervous system reacts, and so we The role became kind of a new field of design ethics. Have you ethically design, based on a more vulnerability, centric view of the human animal? Yes and
All you were at Google. You at a certain point wrote this document and its Jerry Maguire moment I would say, and as came in to work. You notice. It was many. People's computers and people are really talking, and they were all saying- oh my gosh, I'm so glad someone said this. We too Where are these are problems now we ve created that are in our home. Our I look at my phone. Much too often, I'm addicted to my ear was your case. I think he you realize one very addicted to my email. I can't stop checking it and in our they want, which is funded by the way. Because a lot of people in the film didn't understand that line like who in the world is addicted to their emu. Has those people to get junk. But you know, maybe, if you live from, say my letter era and you ain't time the year, and it is and it's a twenty four seven news cycle- an obligation list right, you're always behind to get back to someone, and so, if you don't actually have, in your own mind a way to conceptualize what it means to be complete, then based
sickly I've obligated you for the rest of your life, because you are never going to be gone. Getting back to all those people and that's the thing I'll. Also that I was seeing a Google back in the time was the growth rate of what was going to happen. Cuz Google you actually get bombarded in those from thousands of people you get just so much information. It felt like kind of getting a the front row see to the future where you're, seeing? Oh, my god, what is a scandal? When everyone's getting thousands of emails and thousands of notifications, we better do something now to protect people who are going to be coming along with us. We're handing these phones out of the developing world. What are we going to do to the collective attention of two billion people? where the concerns came. It felt like an opportunity. We could change this before got too bad and we can really make a difference and go is this unique position because of Android and because of chrome, the browser where they kind of reshaping the rules of the attention economy. We can really make a choice. Almost like a government can make a choice or a city, make a choice about what is the with this
Watson? Is theirs, stop signs and is there a traffic lights right? You know we're not for attention or do we just Let it run in others, no speed limits, there's no stop signs. Everyone just go as fast as you can, and it's a race to the bottom for who can kind of Yet, wherever you want as fast as possible, let alone, if you crash, and have you no kids or whatever you do, the and enough that's kind of what the initial effort at Google was was about. So what happen. Is there was much further at Google amongst the employees and it had been brought up to the higher ups, numerous times, and you at that moment thought wow. This is going to really change things and I'm very excited about this and I'm glad it was received this way. And then virtually nothing happened. they just kind of past as any super hot button. topic in the new cycle. What was like us all? We care about for thirty six hours and then now we don't Khazars too much other shit to care about
actually, I mean think about how do you hold the attention of a company to say that the attention economy itself is important, where there is no external forces that are sort of driving an agenda that hey. This is the number one thing we ve got to work on it's a while, and I want to be really getting credit to Google and some of their generosity of letting even try to work on this for several years, because there's a couple of executives who specially carved out space, you know for me to even do that. Research really unfortunate that we were unable to get anything really done and that's what led me to realize. You know, there's always is Can you change things on the inside of the outside? You could be inside of Exxon and you're in charge of a billion dollar budget of oil exploration and where the, how much investments went to renewables You could just change Exxon by one percent that would make this huge difference has excellent massive in order so the outside to extinction, rebellion into greenpeace- and you try to change how Exxon operates putting pressure on it in the same was was a Google right like I was there in the inside
it was so seductive? If I could only change it by two percent, you know and then you can how Android works for a billion people. That would change the That would be incredible and that's why I stayed two and a half, or so years trying to do so, but I really realised that it took this external movement both with sixty minutes back in the day later, TED talks are now if the social dilemma which, by the way, we just heard the Netflix numbers the two days ago, the dilemma was watched by thirty eight million households in the first twenty eight days, which I think is broken records for documentaries on Netflix, and if you assume that many families watch the film that's over forty million and forty five, maybe fifty million people. So it's unbelievable of the kind of global public attention that this issue now has loop back with the story. Sixty It's that peace with Anderson Cooper CALL be addiction code really talking about the addiction aspect of the attention economy is let apple and Google to launch these digital well being screen. Time features. When you look at your phone, it shows you how long
he's been indifferent apps. How many times did you check your phone? Those things change has it this external pressure. So it was really a demonstration that you needed the extra pressure and in response, to to having you on sixty minutes, which is my all time, favorite show I had to go out and find an actual app that would have kept track of much time. I was spending at that time that wasn't even an option from the manufacturer will not only was it not an option. There were actively denying that option right. Like We were trying to get made, but they were not letting them in the market place. At that time. There's an app actually, strangely TIM Kendall, who's in the film who's, the former president of Pinterest and who also brought the business model of advertising to Facebook. He's that insider who's in the film the social dilemma he actually now runs a company called moment, which was one of those first companies that did let you screenshot your battery page
reverse engineer: how much time you were spending on different apps, and it's is a perfect example, by the way why we need the technology companies to take responsibility, because we can't build our own solution to this problem is sort of like thing we're building nuclear. Our plant in your neighborhood and by the way, if you have a problem, you have to go design, and so your own hazmat suit in Gaza, things knelt down, that's actually with inhumane about our current system. Is we have stomach problems and we give even individual but the responsibility on you, the individual, just like you. BP saying you know we really care about climate change. We built this carbon calculators. Now you can calculate how much carbon you're using post too, we need to change our practices and accelerate the transition yeah does a great analogy right? What are you going to do? Create your own car at home, create your own everything? Ok, I was asked. Point out the irony, I love that this was stated in the documentary witches. It is both utopia
and to stop yourself the notion that the problem also is getting slowly addressed on the platform Netflix It is ironic right in and I think it became clear in rabbit Hall is, I dont, think Amy Certainly there are some nefarious folks, whatever In general, I dont think there were malicious intentions with many of these things. I think many of these algorithms were created, goal in mind. That did not seem bad, but then just in practice turned out to be something else that no one could have foreseen or just did not see so, and I am also a little bit sympathetic to these companies because you want them to own it, and yet They don't want to be liable. This is where I think there's a little bit of an issue in our justice system, where there is not a lot of latitude for companies to acknowledge their errors and then try to rectify the situation. without having to deal of punitive d is right: it's a little
bit of a catch? Twenty two for these companies- and I do think many of these companies are led by very ethical people you're getting to exactly the right point, which is let's say you find out that your product causes mental health problems for teenagers. Well, are you ever proactively go out and say that hey we're working on reducing the mental health problems for teenagers, you're, never gonna, say that and then also working on that problem means fundamentally changing the success. Metrics of your company say your instagram successes. Time spent and high time spent is correlated with. You know teenage depression which it is. Obviously, isolation in self harm, teen suicide. There's some horrible metrics had gone up with the increased use of especially sort of the teenage apps. not going to be able to admit that the problem exists. You there's a famous brighter Upton Sinclair said you can't get someone to question something at their salary depends on them not seeing, and I think we are what about held? In many cases, these were unforeseen consequences, but then
Later on, these were known consequences but were not dealt with, and I actually think this is why the company's secretly kind of rely on outside pressure. Like the film the social dilemma, like sixty minutes. Like many of these, really hard working activists who, I know has been in the space for a long time. The civil society org sewer screening half of the lungs look what's happening in me, weren't look what's happening in the consumer. the theory correlation matrix and Facebook groups look what's happening in future recommendations. You know it's these we're pushing from the outside who are driving. Some of the most change. At the same time, I want to say I know, and we work with regularly at the center for humane technology, many of insiders who are leading the various key products and features dozens of these companies- and we find really good hearted people who are trying to do the best they can, but they have kind of created a Frankenstein where, once you know you ve steered let's say fifty more people into Q and on or or other conspiracy, conspiracy, theory groups, images kind of already been done right and we can get
in some of those aspects which I think are the most existential either many different sidle ills that are coming from technology, but the real breakdown is our inability to have faith or trust in us information environment. To believe the same things and to even in a reality in the same way ways because, as you know, your brain. Once you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail and technology has sort of like Moses part of us into two different sort of hammer. Seeking nails infrastructures where we have polar. societies around the world, because Facebook profits the more the each of us have our own individual personalized Truman show reality as opposed one shared reality that we can actually have a conversation about yeah, because in the shared reality you're going to get information, you don't find that pleasing and you're going to get information that challenges your assumptions and most people are going to spend a lot of time having their assumptions challenged. It's kind of
I will do what about the about the internet? For from armchair expert,
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quickly. If I can, in Layman's terms, just explained kind of what happened with you too. As I understand it, which is in the rabbit all they get this group person who volunteered to be a part of this- and I will say in general, when I hear about a q and a person, I'm seeing them at the end of the line right or if there are very all right now, nationalist misogynist, I'm meeting them is that person and it's hard for me to imagine that they might not have been that person five years ago and so sky turns over his entire viewing history and you in just watch him be led, you know micron at a time further and further away from where he started, and he starts as an environmental science. Major he's, probably you know, centrist at worst, or something and and just because The algorithm fit had figured out there, it's not enough to give people what they want. You also have to give peace something new
they know if you enjoyed this thing, you'll enjoy this incremental shift over to the right. Now we get none of this. I don't they was malicious or had about intention, but algorithm. Once it takes off it's just. It gets so perfect at knowing exactly where to bring you to get you to spend more time in this. Kind of wakes up as a relief for all right sergeant IST extreme extremists who is sympathetic, white nationalist movements, because they have a right to be proud of themselves and he just wakes up and goes. Oh, oh, my god, who am I Can I give you two more examples of that yeah, it's important to rewind the clock and realize that we're now more than ten years into this mass psychology experiment, where three billion people's thoughts have been wired up to super computers that are steering what we all watch and look at and, as you said, no matter where you start, if you imagine a spectrum, we're on one side, you have the calm, Walter Cronkite Sort of section of you too
You know: com, rational discourse, thoughtful slow, maybe a little bit boring. But you know some kind of shared butter, cooler reality. On the other hand, side of the spectrum you have crazy town or extreme town. You have conspiracy, theories and iraqi, a videos insanity, you know, whatever is gonna. Keep you glued, no matter where you start you can imagine you could start even in the com section more. You could start in crazy town. If I'm? U, and along that spectrum. What's the next set of videos, I'm going to recommend to you? Am I going to recommend you towards the column section towards that section where I'm gonna Greg, menu towards crazy town, you're, always gonna tilt the floor towards crazy town ass. If you imagine No, these platforms taking the entire floor of humanity and adjust tilting at by three degrees. Several examples of this. If you were a teenage girl and you landed at a dieting video on Youtube Menu in Taipei and right, you started. I only certain for diet, videos, but then Youtube trying to calculate. For that right hand, side bar, which we should lay out, in fact, for people what percentage of you
traffic comes from that right hand, side bar of recommendations, if you had to guess versus what you initially searched. Yeah ever What you search for you pick out at the very beginning, right once because I listen rapidly. I tell us, tell us, you know you know, so I don't even know I just I imagine it's in the eighties or nine these or something similar. Last time you to release this number, because I think they got scared by how good it was they used to be very proud of. It was more than seventy percent of wreck of of the watch time, a billion hours a day that seven hundred million hours are can by what a machine is recommending? So if I told you you don't if a I was controlling the world, would we know you know what I mean controlling the mines that control information flows that go into each of US they make up the choices that we make downstream. So it's kind of tapped into mine can full happening way upstream and that my salacious, but I'm sure we can defend the legitimacy. That these things really have taken control and, as you said
if a tea girl watches this dining video on the right hand side, what does it recommend is anorexia videos or what are called fins for? asian videos for their very good keeping teenagers attention of four friends. Don't look like they clicked on those in this is the equipped to driving down the five highway and allay and according to Youtube. If we should give you what you pay attention to, what you're driving down you see a carcass everyone's eyes that literally single every car, their eyeballs dear to the right. They see the car crash, so according to these tech companies in the ai, everyone love car crashes. We we just just you in bottomless supply of car crashes, and this is the exact way that these systems work for parents who I think right now, our in a forced to have you should be the new baby sitter. You set your kids down to maybe watch some videos and watching world war, two videos or something- and then thing you know they watch. It recommends holocaust denial videos because those were really good at keeping kids and then they come to the dinner table saying the earth is.
The holocaust didn't happen, and you say why is the world feel like it's going crazy everywhere? All at once, and is really because These things for ten years have been staring us just slowly bit by bit into this crate Is your view of reality, and in saying this I know it can sound frightening. token, but it's really important that if we can all collectively see that this has happened, I can snap my fingers like MRS and say we can wake up from this trance. Now we have a very artificially inflated. You have polarization or how much? We should believe conspiracy theories, because this is what it's been doing. Yes, just want to make a little bit of an analogy as a writer of movies. So if you can just think first, farmers is very acknowledge that we are story telling machines, that's how we pass on all the information that cap us alive. So we have this great great capacity to stand a retail and understand stories. Now simple in writing. That is undeniable. Is, you will never see a movie where you see a car chase at the beginning of the movie and then see a second carcase in the middle. The second,
or cheese will always be longer more spectacular and have more explosions, and then the third parties that at the UN, has to be the biggest craziest one, because you have to over delivery, have to raise the anti each time or us story, teller followers. We will lose interest me, you can't go backwards, so that's another way in which these Youtube videos are hacking into. Something. Very pro in how we think community and what we're attracted to so. I had just one part of this I would love to just say out loud, which is I think I'm unique in believing that I'm in charge of my opinions and that I'm in charge of what I think is just an unjust and ethical or not. I think we all have a sense that were really anchored in a self and think we're all. We all dramatically underestimate just how persuade above all, we are in,
This is kind of foe arrogance. We all have that we know who we are at our core and that we couldn't possibly be led astray in the fact. Is that just not the case You had many class. on persuasion at Stanford. You now can this. Can you give us a sense of how valuable and vulnerable we are to persuasion? for we get into the fallibility invulnerable, which eight, which we always talk about an and is really an important framing the biggest and most obvious example of us not choosing our own thoughts and our own contents of our own minds is the fact that we speak in a language that we didn't choose to speaking. I dont speak English, I chose that I speak English and the accent that I have there's actually a great New York Times thing where, if you just answer twenty five questions about which words you use about various objects in our environment, it'll actually pinpoint the Zack, zip code that you live in, because the word choices are that specific to our genes.
Yeah, literally with like something like twenty questions, of which words you would use about various objects like what you call the dividing line in line in a street or something like that or what you you call the this later these kinds of things, the economically pick, the exactly see you which speaks of the fact that, in a way, all operating with accents and dialects of language that we didn't choose. We just grew up in the spaces that we did, but on the persuasion, in front my background originally, the kid in San Francisco with my mother. She would take me to the magic shop and I was really fascinated by magic, because even as a child, you could do something that adults didn't understand how the trick worked. I found a fascinating, really impressive bit of coin work, and now we all we, I love. She saw a warning for Madrid. It's crazy! We're out my birthday this here. That's me yeah, I feel so lucky to be able to have gotten to know certain magicians. I've had such a huge magician crush on for a while to follow. Robbins are Darren Brown over the last
full of yours, it's just astonishing. When you really see the level of craft in a magician knowing something about how other people's minds make, meaning that other people don't know that's. What makes the illusion work is the fact that there is an asymmetry of knowledge if the asymmetry of knowledge wasn't there that I know something about you that you don't know about yourself if you knew The thing that I know, then the trick doesn't work right and magic is a very visceral experience of all of us being. Maybe it's been a thousands listener out. There has seen have seen a magic show, but I actually was recently at the MAGIC castle. down and allay before crony virus hit and No even being a magician myself use. You still urge, is blown away by the craft of what these people can do and I studied at a class at Stanford call the persuasive technology lab or persuasive design course, which originally is really about how to use persuasion for good Can you embed persuasion into technology? For example, could you help people? You know build habit?
for going on exercises or for cheering up there as this is Bj. We interviewed him what a sweetie pie we like him he's wonderful and there's a false narrative out there that somehow we are enemies or something like that. Oh he spoke highly of you. He he said like two of the people he was most proud to have had in his class. You were one of them. Was you and the Instagram guy? in the same class and how bizarre that is, we were yeah. I was in the class with the co founder of Instagram, MIKE Krieger who's been a very close friend of mine and there's actually a photo of the three of us at south by southwest in two thousand and eleven, which like a very historic photo somehow in that weird moment was taken just a that story MIKE and I before he built Instagram. We work on a project in that persuasion class called send the sunshine which was about you know in
periods of bad weather people get something called seasonal, affective, depression disorder. I have it self diagnosed, but I definitely have it. I have it today. It's cloudy here, I think, here's a biological component having come originally from India, where there's a lot of central Asia, so my other indian acquaintances have suffer from it. proportional level? This is arm chair, anthropological observation, but please continue. You know that our environment really matters in terms of how you know how uplifted we feel in the of our room to the weather outside. So this project was basically- and this is keep in mind back in two thousand and six, even before the Iphone. So it's kind of a futuristic idea, which was let's say: two phones to feature phones and in one of the zip codes, the weather service. Just knows that you live in a zip code where you had bad weather for five or six or seven days in a row. What it does is it your other friend and says hey your friend Dax has had battle there. Do you want to take a photo of the sunshine could be no you're in a weather is a coat with good, whether our sense of sunshine, to him and said
this view of this kind of puppeteer who's, trying to orchestrate something really positive reaction You know you friend, orchestrate compassion or lover. Thinking of you kind of I trade and so this is an example of persuasive technology that could be used to help bring people in a little bit closer together. You might even say to make sure we're and even handed with Facebook that the birthdays feature is reasonable. Right I mean to be able to know there. One day I hear you get your celebrate your friends and its helpful to have computers doesn't tell us what those days are: that's persuasive technology and you start to realise that persuasion is kind of everywhere. It's in our world is a choice architecture in other high of shelves in a supermarket controls. What we look at, what how often we buy some things over others? You know that that when you're at the end of a grocery store line and there's that last, you know bit of chocolate and sweet and gum, and things like that in an caps and gaps here So our world is, we are living already in physical choice, architectures physically persuasive environments, but if you now put the phone in our hands
phone, totally reshapes the menu of choices that we are picking from and it provides in any moment of anxiety or boredom an instant six You always have something sweeter on life's menu. You can choose, which is to look at your phone, rather than be with yourself when we had taken not high who's, the famous spokesperson for world peace four mindfulness visas and buddhist monks asked away, I believe, recently from Vietnam and we brought into Google and the way he described his concerns about technology. is that it's never been easier to run away from ourselves now, because these I provide an infinite excuse for a quick hit of pleasure or novelty which is way more satisfying the need discomfort of whatever is playing you know when the lights go down. The stupid example I give is my wife and I went to this hotel for two days and I just said on the way up: I'm not going to look at my phone for two days. First day, I was like
bored agitated grumpy second day. found paper in some pencils. drew and I and I was like. Oh my god was the last time I just sat in drew and it was. I got me right and I was shocked at my own level of bein satiated by the never ending blinking machine yeah. I had a friend who created something called Kim rounded, which was actually an experience for three days, revolved around unplugging from your phone, but it was much deeper than that. When you arrived at this camp there is three people hazmat suits. Who would come up to you and take your phone and put it in a plastic sealed bag along with your driver's license, and they would do this whole ritual to kind of take it away, and then they give you a new name for the weekend. So you, if your name you know, is Tristana. My name would be presents for the three days that I'm there and then our time here there everyone has a different name. You talk about work, there's no
technology and there's no time. Seven also takes your watch away. This time is also an interesting thing. That's the technology that really restructures our relationship to pressure. an attention and things So you don't have a watch. You can't talk about time. You can't talk about work, you don't talk about age, and you just have a new name and you kind of get to see. Who am I when Everything is, is just taken away and it's very uncomfortable. People have these brief moments, so kind of feeling anxious and everything, but then it becomes this kind of freeing here experience where Org by day two I have to imagine. Everybody started fucking like the first original game boy, that's an interesting! I didn't go in. That direction will be a different redwood forest or have steered people differently, but it's actually amazing, because when there's no competition for attention, everyone There's a lot more about each other and gets to be a lot more curious about each other, because there's nothing else. The other people are the source of entertainment. At that point, yeah it turns
people are really interesting, actually have the patience and not just one way, but both people had the patience to get curious about who each other. to your point earlier yeah, you don't have this endless bit of homework, which is your email, the others so you owe- and you don't have this pressure of supposed to happen at this time. In that time, yeah there's a lot that goes away right. There completely eyes? This experience is created by leave. I feel like two. It was an amazing human who, unfortunately passed away a few years ago from brain cancer. We were actually the same age, but he creates these weekends at camp grounded where hundreds of people had totally life changing experiences, and it wasn't just when the disconnection of technologies about reconnecting with what it means to be human in being a redwood forest people, they are now
story, you tell if the person dies at the end, its that'll be the third Reich acts. I was back to back no moral, the Buddhist monk out the Bhutto's amongst yes, yes, I forgot her earliest tell a couple: were there, people are still thriving. so. I have some thoughts. I re watched it this morning, while I was working out and just one one sentence again, I want to repeat that so profound that people should really ask themselves which is, if you're not paying for the product. You are the product. I feel like that's the easiest way to assess what's happening. It's of the old poker able saying if you can't recognise the fish year, the fish, that's a powerful way to think about this right in I've heard of people who concentrate on in your field talk about this kind of fork in the road we had, which is made a decision to either pay for this service or to receive
for free from other people who would be footing the bill, which would be advertisers, and this in that so we didn't choose the paid version. Of course, I am in a position where I could pay for the pay version and I would like the paid version, but It is inherently a little undemocratic! Isn't it if that were that it would just exacerbate the income inequality, how we get around. That is that part of what potential solution could be, as is one that we picked that had us of ethics, and then we just we had to pony up and pay for it yeah. Well, maybe for the audience. It might be good to explain why, when we are the product, this such a unaffordable outcome one thing we like to say as free as the most expensive business model we ve ever come up with, because when the product free, as you say, we are the products being sold in specifically. Journalists. is very quick to point out in the film that the subtle
perceptible change in our beliefs and behaviour and identity. That is the product. So the ability to shape just by poor centre point. One percent over thing and feeling in doing that ability to shift someone is the very thing that's being sold by dongle therefore, one second, that's a big concept that I want to set in, and you so. I think a lot of us have a kind of baseline understanding that, where the product in that were being added I too am we're. Gonna go, spend money and buy these products, but that's income really is what you're saying that there is something more dangerous on the table which is not only will you by this product, but I change your mind about this product. Whatever that product may be, be a political project that could be anything the real value for anyone that would invest then this is too
the world somewhere, they would want them to be led the threat the ability to shift minds. Now, when I say there's a lot of people might think one not influenced by advertising right, not just some people Almost everyone believes that they're not influence that hasn't called Dunning Krueger effect believes that there is no better than ninety percent believe that their better than average drivers, but, of course, that It doesn't work out also that an inquiry. Girls are that's stupid, as person talks the mouse right that in general, down here there's so many aspects of the ways that we overestimate our capacities. But this that is not just about the advertising. Facebook incentive. Is you are more profitable when you are addicted anxious polarized attentions seeking outraged this informed, then, if you are actually a thriving citizen of our democracy, because in each of those cases. Your spent
time on the platform right if you are not addicted you're, not worth as much as someone who's addicted. If you're not anxious that causes you to check in more often with an unconscious habit, you're not as profit well as someone who is anxious whose checking in if you're, attention seeking, like you, don't care about the number of people who looked at the video that you posted in how many comments it got your less if you're not attention seeking than if you aren't attention seeking. So each these cases. We are worth more if we're domesticated into a certain new kind of human. think of it, as just like we demand Kate cows inside this feels disgusting to people, but I think it's important to really make sure the metaphor lands that justly we don't have regular cows anymore or wildcats. We have the kinds of cows that give us the most milk and give us the most meat, because that's the kind of cow that fits our economy will. We are because the kind of human that is, you know, shorter attention, spans, more addicted, more distracted, more outrage, more polarized, more attention seeking and more disinformed, because, because of them
as things are part of what makes become, more money again, not because anyone at Facebook twist their mustache and says this is how we're gonna make all this money, but machines that they supercomputers that they point in our brain, to calculate what thing can they show us and how quickly can they show it to us, and should it a player. Should it wait five seconds or should we make people hit are share for instantly, or should we have them wait and meditate on on a mountain and then share only when they know if it's true, all the worst aspects of society are more profitable than the best aspects of society, which is actually what puts each in the same boat as human beings good news is no one. Wants the system it's an economy based on cannibalism, be our own life support systems that make us real human, whether you're I'll, look in or a Democrat or a child or an eighty year old. Each of us, in the same boat together, because it's really are lower level human instincts for ones who are suffering. We start seeking comfort,
We generally when suffering and feeling fearful seek comfort in the quickest easiest most disposable ways. That, of course, then impact even more suffering, and you know it's like that- should spiral circle people get in or the lack of exercising least, unless exercise in all these things, we seemed always spiralling up or spiralling down right, and I think a humane technology world is one in which you get virtuous cycles, where more virtuous behaviour creates more virtuous. Profits creates more virtuous. Behaviour creates more virtuous. Habits creates more, moreover, ways, ways of living a more more virtuous society. So what we're king for, as you said, is not the sort of down spirals of human downgrading, which is the more the machine get smarter at predicting our behavior and manipulating us and making us more predictable. They make more money, so they get to bigger machines that can better our behavior and then sort of a vicious loop of they get increasing power and we have become more predictable. Let's reverse that
so that humans become more free, more wise, more thoughtful, more virtuous and the machines are more service of us as opposed to using as the resources to be mined. Here's where we get into some big philosophical issues with all of this, which is we live in a capitalist market economy. How do you incentivize, that how could that ever incentivize. I think this now gets to the question you are asking about. You know: hey we. A paid subscription models for these products, like how much of people paid your listeners paid for a facebook account recently, nothing. But how are they were seven hundred and fifty billion dollars because Your attention is the thing that's being strip mined for profit. So if the Is this model instead was subscription? We pay ten dollars a month. Let's say it's important to say that we, I think you know for basic
service, it's not free either. We have to pay for a network for access to a network after this is really not a radical idea. You know for Netflix and peak entertainment with Netflix in the rise of say, game of thrones. We get game of thrones and we pay for subscription television, out of the kind of race to the bottom for click bait. So we're really paying for the world that we want to live in now, firstly, anytime, you have paid access economy, it entry, his inequalities. We want to make sure that were equalising, however, to say that we want to equalize what? What we have now is like saying is: co the Colosseum were? How else are we going to give the entire world diabetes? If we don't you sugar doing rather delivering I'm after you have on their hatless delivering the wrong product, we have to make sure that we're not we're not delivering garbage that down, rates, human civilization. So we can't actually survive as a species. We were deliver ubiquitous, leave a democratically the kind
if self, reinforcing virtuous humane technology there? Actually has our interests at heart. I thought of some today, while pounding the bench for us and listening to your movie as any thought about this technique. Now there seems to be an agreed upon analysis of happiness in that. The? U n always rates Sweden as number one, and God knows. What's the last place, one there there seems to be some pretty dependable met, tricks, we can measure happiness right and we can measure suffering. We can measure on some level flourishing. Why isn't therein? independent government agency that studies what a year on a platform results in so let's say Every one of these platforms, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, the day you joined one year later? You would be ass, a series of questions and then they would give all of these different products arranging so
people are going to get thirty percent more miserable. If I, if I see that as I'm signing into Facebook versus I go to instagram- and let's say I get two percent happier I feel like that would be the We have one of pudding, ingredients on labels and putting cork intake and fat count, and all that no one has a sense of whether this thing's gonna make them more miserable or not, and I trust that people wouldn't pick a product. That's gonna them more miserable. How could that work work in tandem with something yet will definitely a line of thinking that people have gone down. It's it's a really important one. I think we have to make sure we're setting the right goal post for what are objective it. So, if the goal post happiness, though, brave new world that Aldous Huxley conceived of where everyone has so much and pleasure. You know a world we're all. Just getting happy is not a world where we necessarily solve climate change deal with racial injustice, or you know, making a more equal Fair society obviously orbit
look he's living happiness in that in that way, might just be kind of amusing ourselves to death or sort of distracting us so what we need to make sure that our technology environment, if we set the right goalposts, conditions humans to have the kind of purpose these they can solve our most pressing. Problems, including having the well being mental health relations ships and connection that enable us to be full and thriving when required the trust science, which is more and more. There are many many people who are in a part of those metrics whose purpose is the community is not just I'm on two heads of ecstasy, and you gave me allowing hop, let em azure of happiness. But again, if there is one we could agree upon, that was true flourishing and in using all the cognitive baby, you're old things we now know and sorry, please continue. You know that's exactly ram, is you quickly kind of reverse engineer, mass those pyramid and you end up with a cave? How do we make sure technology is enabling the kind of fools holistic thrive,
flourishing and embodiment of are wise, values, then you quickly, from this kind of abstract philosophical conversation about? What does it mean for us to be, you know so wise and how do we know there were flourishing and can facebook? If we wait for tat, due to deliver on all those benefits. Shouldn't humans also have the capacities intrinsic in themselves to it their own ends, and so on you for one! Second, that it is a point you made earlier in the documentary, which is it to you at one point: wow not only are two billion people being affected by this, but are ultimately being affected by a hand, full of twenty five to thirty year old white males in so that there is in an throw. We say, naive, realism, there's a tendency to believe that your higher Your Maslow pyramid in your culture is one that would transcend when, in fact, if you're an anthro person- that's not true! So the
you're designing, something or my suggestion would would be implicit in assuming other cultures would want our mouths low pyramid and it's exactly We ve seen as a kind of digital colonialism, especially since these companies, especially Facebook with its free basics per has gone into countries like Myanmar or Ethiopia and made a deal with the telephone. provider. So if you were getting your very so you've never been on the internet. You know your phone comes with Facebook, that's the deal that they do with the telco provider and you get Facebook access free, but everything else costs money, and this creates an symmetry we're now Facebook has crowded out competitors and alternatives, and people's first experience with the internet is Facebook. There is no GDP Call- and there is no doubt whatever that you got There- is no learning- security or how to tighten usernames and passwords all of that by the wayside, and Facebook has colonized with their view of reality. With there you know, white males, sleep in california-
the ways that everybody else lives by and that has had enormous negative consequences, and you say in the dog: they think that's the internet. They think the actual internet is just Facebook, that's exactly right and is important, because in some of these trees that they do. These deals with free basics like, and I think it is you'll, be others six at least six major languages, and this is pointing out either because many people are looking at it just kind of mean MR number number meaning sort of the second at risk country. Because of fake news that spreading and driving up civil conflict. and so you end up in a place where with all- these different languages. Do you think that Facebook has content moderators for the six different major layers of Ethiopia? for the hundreds of dialects on different continents. Do you think they have content moderated for that? So, if you think you too recommending some conspiracy theory, you know Holocaust denial thing in English, his bad, but then later you take care. You take Amole sick and they'll wack, some of the bad apples, that's because they have
on moderators that are paid to do that in that language. Now you open it up to Facebook managing eighty elections around the world in a given year, and you hundreds of languages in dialects, especially developing countries where they dont have nearly the same level of attention, as were now having here in the: U S with the: U S, election, where there is obviously war set up within Facebook and Google to try to deal with adversarial threats. We're entering HU a period where this is an unprotected infrastructure in the kind of bullies tend to win the worst of us, the hate, the outrage, the accusations black and white thinking the incivility, the dehumanization of speech, the human behind a speech that the staff to get the most clicks, which then makes up the default information environments of these places. I'm sorry, these are dark by the way. It's really important that people get, I think, the real world outcomes of this. That's right and is much bigger. an addiction in time spent ride him. You were talking about the fabric and survival ability of every society.
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in. So you just kind of touch on one of my fears when I have a pessimistic view of all this, which is wouldn't it be impossible to have human ethical oversight of any of this, because the volume of information and the users is just so great that no company or government agency could ever monitor it. Only the ay. I can be handling the volume and processing it in so I hate to be realistic about it, but I just don't know how volumes just so great it's almost like compared would compared to the apartment, security is like the page. like they start gathering all this debt of all these phone calls and Bobo people are worried about but interact who gives a shit no one's around to synthesize Alvis. No one can go through all this data. This is just collecting it for the sake of collecting it there's no, no human apparatus that could possibly monitor it. Yes, who you're getting to this critical, possibly underneath
Canada that the paradoxes underneath all this, which is that premise doing this. managing our attention. Our information with technology is that we automate meaning we have machines, choosing what we see, because it would It would cost a lot of money to hire editors, hundreds the one hundred thousand dollars a year to pick what's true, credible are real and the whole premise of the business model, you know one thing. I might sure that I don't think I've talked about in any other interview. Is I ask They worked with Jimmy whales, the founder Wikipedia for period my life, my career, just finishing computer science at Stanford and with him on his for profit, Wikipedia, spin off called Wikipedia and with care was the idea that you know they would do. Wikipedia but more like. If you went to a library, you would have the encyclopedia section, that's Wikipedia Wikipedia, but then you have the rest. The library in the magazine, rack, meaning
people writing their own content just like Wikipedia. We have regular people filling in not just articles that are encyclopedic, but maybe let the Mickey or the Wikipedia STAR Wars Wiki, and the premise of why I'm bringing this up is because this was an attractive business model, because we, the regular humans, are the ones doing all the writing for free yeah, I notice that no one who writes Wikipedia gets paid for writing Wikipedia similar to Youtube as well: yeah they're, just creating Conda yeah, exactly and so the brilliance of these business models. What makes these companies so profitable is that there are no editors. There are no content, creators or journalists that you have to pay, go journalism school and have a media ethics background and double check and do the right journalistic protocol. You can just get fifteen year olds to basically put on makeup in front of Youtube channels and make ten thousand dollars a month and that the new normal for teenage girls. So the this here, as you said, is let's say your facebook and you ve got trillions of items of content, rushing
your system, they would have to hide, thousands and thousands and thousands, if not millions of, Moderator can I add one static, Mario in the warm all one. I forget the exact number, but its very close to this in his seat. day of global you'd to viewing it would amount to a hundred and fourteen thousand years of content? Well, he said The ball in computer science here is there's just way more information that is causing consequences. Then there monitoring of what is inside of of that information or what consequences are being created. So that's, like car that is driving faster than your steering wheel than your eyeball can keep track of home. How many people you're running over how fast it's going and how many people, how many stops, You bashed into your eye works more slowly than your car is knocking the stuff down there and that's. The problem is that Facebook is this kind of Frankenstein where
creating again some positive consequences. Let's remember the organ donors in the blood donors and the families reconnecting in high school relationships haven't seen after twenty years. That's fine, but there's also Justice unmitigated, harm that they really don't have control over and that's. Why we're really in this week by week I think called the film and directors and makers called the film the social dilemma, because it is a deeply that we are now living infused with these systems, these social systems that are running our digital habitats. These are the places that we spend hours of our lives now they're, not just products. We use they're the habitats that we use to make. meaning of bad is Portland? Is it a war zone of people shooting each other, or is it just two in a city. It's a beautiful, peaceful day. The way we know the answer to that is by looking through the tiny you know binoculars up social media glasses right and as these things, infuse themselves with our way of making meaning and saying what is going on in the world if its causing more consequences and they can ever get a handle on we have to take.
Much more radical actions about what we can again our information site in first of all, a society become conscious that this is even happening, which is why I think the film was so important to me I think that's happening. I think this is becoming slowly comparable to the awareness that smoking cigarettes gives a cancer behind that took decades and it was slow, but people seem to really understand that. So I do feel like the awareness, very people in the equation, as is happening, my fear, is that the horse cannot be put back in the barn this metaphor of putting the Genie back in the bottle, the horse in the barn obviously comes up, there's action one time in history where we did put not the Genie but the pill back in the bottle- and this was in the history of Johnson and Johnson to where there was tylenol. also in in nineteen eightys, there was poisoned that was being put into tylenol whatever I wasn't, the capsules, the jar, I think, there's poison.
hampering, and so some people were dying because a tylenol carrying these these tampered with poison poison tablets or something and Johnson Johnson had a choice they could have said. There is no problem, deny deflect delay. Thailand fine keep buying it we're sure it's safe. They should have said not happening. They could have said, look how much we're doing to try to remove. You sounds familiar with Facebook and they didn't do that Instead what they did, they did actually say. We are going to take this off the shelf until we can prove it safe and they get off the shelf, for I think of something like five or six weeks. You can look it up on Wikipedia and course. What happened was their stock price tag in the short term, but then ass. They had done a high trust action where they were honest with the american public about what was going on after the they invented the tamper proof top, which is why they invented that. That tamper proof top for the jar. That's when people trusted afterwards, so that's I think the model that we could apply for here.
twitters case for that we're about to go into a? U s: election! There's groups, like account tack and others that are pushing for us to ask Twitter, trend October. So basically just say: the trending topics is a completely gameable machine. It only takes a few thousand boxer. You know a hundred ten thousand people too, was called brigade. Were you all simultaneously post about a topic that you want to get the media cover. This is how they fire festival. Cat popularity is a all posted this yellow image or something at the same time. That's exactly and so this is very game of all, and so, if you want who is served and keep in mind, if you are a KGB agent in the nineteen eighty or ninety, ninety one, fourth of your time, one fourth of your time, was dedicated to inventing fabricated stories. That would be very plausible take down your adversaries, so imagine the kind practice adversaries have when one fourth of their time is coming up with plausible stories that are,
we confirm your existing buys. Have you seen this HBO to part doc about the troll factory and how they came to be so effective and gave a scene it? Yet then he- and I know he did the caught the one on Scientology called going clear, which has tremendous parallels. What we're talking about yeah It was originally basically designed to just alter how people felt about Russia and then, of course, They found a great application for in the Ukraine and Crimea. And then now they realize they have this incredibly powerful tool, and now they just yet deploy it everywhere in you recognise just house. Stir how effective how few people are required. That's the one of the scariest aspects, there's only a floor full of people doing this. yeah, it's highly gameable, as you say, so, It's incredibly gamble and it doesn't take them many resources. We just did an interview on our podcast called your undivided attention. With someone from the inside
for strategic dialogue where they actually said how much would it cost if we wanted to run an influence campaign that would reach every single user online in Kenya using like Facebook or twitter? The answer is less than the cost of a used car. So ten thousand dollars? In other words, if you want to run an influence campaign a year from one of those western wealthy countries for chump change, you can basically reach the entire world. Little were seeing in many areas countries and sat in the South EAST Asia and the african continent is Russia and the same Irae troll factory is actually been running. Campaigns in something like seven major, F in countries to try to influence public affairs there in elections, which is incredibly cheap ethic. One way to think about this is while we in the US are obsessed with protecting our physical borders and building walls spending something like a trillion dollars to revitalize or nuclear fleet nor physical security. We left the digital borders wide open Yes, because how much of our economy and our society run in the physical world? You know like our physical,
antennas or electricity grids or roads, those are all protected by pass. For controls and the Department of Defense will shoot down a plane from Russia, China to try to come in, but if they try to fly in information plain into the United States, there met by a white gloves, the Facebook algorithm says: yeah exactly which zip code would you want to target and they can now get us to quote pick what they want, but just are crazier than being invaded. You know It's not as if they're trying to actually bombers. They actually go, get to talk. This actually evidence recently from that a year ago of raw going into former: U S veterans groups from the Vietnam WAR and they had pages. more than two hundred thousand followers. Where so able to you discontent among US veterans, so the equivalent of this, when you really think of the mismatch of our defence industry, like the military industry and in national security and intelligence communities, have been really struck with this, because as we have
virtual eyes, our country, as we have made our country work in the digital world, primarily unless in the physical world we finished lose all the security protection, so would be. Like you're, a bank spend a trillion dollars, hiring physical bodyguards super Buff, guys that surround your entire bank and meanwhile, You set your computer system with the default passwords. Lowercase password. You don't change the default password at anybody. Hacking. What matters or surrounding your bank with the physical bodyguards or letting the default euro system be wide open for hacking and that's exactly what our is Facebook and Youtube and Twitter as they leave the back doors to our countries. Wide open attacking they're, just doing it all in the culture war space, and I think and, as you said, the king here is to recognise, first of all that this has happened to us almost like we ve been bombed by a business model that there is a fear had a harbor if not theoretical. This has really happened to us. In We really have an urgent, not just you know, mental health need here or
teenagers issuer diction issue, but a national security issue that we have to fix this problem incredibly fast, and to your point, though, these are the riches companies in the history of humanity, and so if they could, you know, spend billions and billions and billions of dollars whatever it takes to try to address these problems, for we need them to do and right now, hiring thirty thousand content. Moderators between Arizona and the Philippines is not a solution to this problem. Why it's gonna? have to be another algorithm that we put some faith in and then it too will have some unintended outcome that will have to then adjust again. I imagine the capacity can only be met by the technology. Ironically, I do want to ask Two more philosophical questions, one is there is darwinian argument to be made here, which is that, if we require all these american companies to do this, it's going to Happen- is that many other foreign companies that make these products are gonna. Have this
advantage over us and they're going to get way more of our attention because we can compete with the algorithm. So you know it is a daunting property position to go first right, and I know this is a shitty argument in its used in the environmental arena, which is like well. Why would we not have a ton of co two emissions if everyone else is going to we live on the same plant so until they go? Some of this is like who's going to go first, and certainly some people will have a darwinian advantage over us yeah. That's that's right and ever the beginning and he doesn't thirteen a google. This is the concern that we always brought up. Is it is a game, theoretic challenge? If I don't do it, other guy will, you know the US says we're not going to build Semi autonomous AI drone war weapons, but- and we try to sign a treaty with China that you're not going to build the AI drone weapons either didn't secretly I'm going to tell them you're going to go there, because I don't have to trust you and you race into a game theoretical escalation, but it in that case you have mutually assured destruction. In this case.
Let's say you have companies, like you said we have a humane social network that doesn't depend on unsure, orality in the same lottery and the promise of sort of attention seeking narcissism. The powers are exact for media system today about personal, but continue not intended ideas can we have, a social media infrastructure. That is for the people by the p for that is really in the democratic interest and that will be heavily competed by an unregulated social media that appeals to your reach you know millions more people with it you'll get way more positive feedback. You'll get snapshot. Beautification filters, like you, know, has been you'll. Do all of the kind of LAS Vegas enhancements that kind of reach per down the brain stem and we can use the real time. Example Tik Tok, so Tiktok is now competing with all these other platforms and it was unravel. It's a pity, pie. Dec
to get two hundred million followers, and now with Tik Tok, someone had sixty million and I don't know three months whatever it is again, this isn't theoretical it's happening. Currently, that's exactly right! The curve shortens every year right, where the number of years that takes months that it takes for someone to go from zero to two hundred million followers. The companies are competing to via that addiction to defame lottery right, because if I can give you that faster, if I'm Tik Tok out compete, Instagram for the same video, you opposed to Instagram and you get a thousand likes. If I can will in tick talk, you'll get ten thousand likes their competing, and how much they can give us this inflated sense of social approval, and I use these metaphors often to try to create that intentional discussed. So people just say we don't want any of us here. This isn't the system that we want to live by, so that we can act, look at a country like Taiwan, or you have an amazing human being, who I think, doesn't get any attention. Audrey tank who's the digital minister of Taiwan and Create- an online democratic society.
Meaning a digital, democratic society using online tools that sorts our discourse for online. Consensus was that of sorting by what gets the most clicks are located. the shares or look at those comments? What they sort there system by is when two people who attend the disagree on topics when they tend to converge in a line. That's what gets up ready indeed there their sort of democratic fee, on least that, and they have a trance current government process that has led to the wedding is is handled better than than almost any of the other countries. They have some the fewest cases, and I really think people should check out her work either on our podcast, your undivided attention or on the the TED she has an amazing interview. Does she speak English? Well, we would love to have her on it. a Taiwanese so she's actually spent most of her life in the United States. She actually worked on Apple's, SIRI team, okay and what she's doing is really a model for how do you battle this,
formation, keeping in mind that Taiwan is also heavily under the threat of chinese disinformation here, so they ve really gone through the gauntlet of intent, threats and made it out saying here is a model for a large country with millions of people tens of millions of people with but not a homogeneous culture? There's different different tribes in different languages actually and they've? Actually, successfully created an online democratic model that works for the people by the people. Have the people and that's what we need to bring the United States and it's funny, because this is one of those rare cases where coming from Sandford in Silicon Valley, you visit places abroad and p so yeah we see Silicon Valley, but we can never do that here. Nigeria, or we can never do that here and you know tat where's that whenever this is one of those weird things were when I tell you about this example of Taiwan, you might even though we can never do that here in the United States, but we have to prove that is possible and I actually think that maybe I don't The Trump administration would really do this. I say this and Partisan Lee. But I think this would be a great thing if an abiding ministration were to take hold true
So how do we modernize? Are democracy to have a safe, secure international protected digital demo environment, where we don't. Downgrade our collective citizen really dont downgrade our attention span? Our mental health or attention seeking our narcissism are polarization. actually realise what happened, and we reverse course. I think that's the most optimistic hope that I have that we could we could do from IRAN out last your questions. I promise thanks for all your time. One is, I'm also again is, I guess, I'd myself myself, the the back say a realist about the market were also talking. In about taking away one of the most explosive and wealth creating and successful sectors of Eric and ingenuity and export. So it is a little scary to think about pulling back with the companies make in what wealth they create, which of course disseminates all throughout our country It seems a little scary, just financial point of view, yeah think
the inconvenient truth here, which is actually why that was a great title for that film is what We build economic system that profits from very problems that we want to eliminate from our society. It's untenable yeah. This was also true in history, where, if there's a great book called the by Autumn Hoak shield about the ending of slavery in the british empire, because Then the entire world economy was powered by slavery. By so you wake up one day and have the obvious insight that this is inhumane and wrong. What do you do when seventy five percent of the world economy is coupled with something you cannot decouple with, will ensue hearing story. Is this book very the chain speaks to how oversight like sixty years, the british Empire dry its GDP two percent per year over sixty years to decouple its economy from slavery,
did that without a civil war, and it did that by network. king with the other, as in the U S and different groups, and testimony and pioneering many of the kind of activism techniques that are now being used in the climate movement and many other movements. And I think that book offers a kind of blueprint for hey. We done this Four million actually had a situation where our economy was directly tied, not making moral equivalence terms here about the content of what harms we're talking about. No, I think you're saying that Mark Zuckerberg is a slave owner. We heard you loud and clear and that'll be the headline. Hopefully that accompanies this interview in me, click The model of the they have created. That is the I would probably create off of this. more nuanced interview, but I think that offers a blueprint for hey- you know humanity. We've done this before yeah,
I'm a pessimist, and yet I also can recognize that every time we think we can't get off of horse and buggy production, the car comes along, and then we can't get off of this. We we always find a way to stay busy and we always find a way to feed ourselves, and it's only gotten better and better. Despite all these hurdles. Now it is my last questions. I just had a real juicy argument on my friend Eric as I in favour of many the videos they pulled off Youtube. coming from more of a right perspective is like well, yes. basically all of this forward movement. What you would consider would be good would generally just be liberal kind of progressive in that we would be really just mostly policing against Q and on in all these things, that, of course, I find repugnant in so he has they point there is an ongoing, a point that, yes, I probably think some videos should stay, that he would disagree with and vice versa. There probably would be a liberal meant to all this? Wouldn't it if I'm on the right, I might think well, yeah, I'm going to leave it
Tristan, who I'm certain is going to vote for Biden. So really all you guys are asking for is for us. Let you on the left decide we can all view. Is there non partisan argument for this or reassure me you can give here. I think the challenges we are facing here on content? Moderation is a crisis of trust, so Who do you trust to me decisions about what can or cannot be brought. cast its millions of people. Do you trust, mark the bureau, the individual to do that? Do you trust low paid content, moderators in Arizona paid minimum wage? You know to do that. Do look at psychological, sweat shops in the Philippines, the dew content moderation to trust Herman. What is actionable content to try to take down. We don't have a clean answer to this problem. That's kind of the Frankenstein aspect is that when you have systems
blasting off dangerous content rockets for an exponential scale and, as I said before, the power of God have to have the wisdom, love and prudence of God. You can't be zoos and accidentally bump your elbow and scorch half of earth if We have a moral compass and good guidance. I think the problem is, we ve created the means by which dangerous viral and intentionally malicious and kind of conspiracy. Influence campaigns can actually out. keep truth: we don't have a way of adjudicating it to the current standard. That platforms use when it comes to foreign manipulation is something hold coordinated, inauthentic behavior, because often is what Russia or China or someone will do or ran they. Won't? create a new influence campaign d actually just find, let's say attacks the secessionist they'll say: hey, there's this group of taxes secessionist those U S free speech. You know protected individuals. They've already got a group but we're dial up the free speech. Folks, summing up the Texas secessionist folks and we're gonna die
down the let's everybody get together and make this work folks and by changing the dials, it's not really about who speaks it's around, who gets hurt, which is the point of the attention economy that the freedom of speech is not the same as freedom to reach millions of people? That's what I was arguing with Eric, I'm like you, don't have a right to be on a company's feed. Don't know more than you have a right to put a billboard of your political, Have you on my home? There barriers all over the place. The only thing you're protected from is that the government will not limit your speech and that you can walk out in the street and say whatever you want, but there is no constitutional right to be involved in other people's platforms. It's not free meat. That has nothing to do with that, and you know we're in this difficult situation where, after a foreign after will metal in a local group. stir up a culture war once culture. War has started, they don't have to continue. The culture war now exists,
rights are now your country fighting itself on its own accord, and I can slowly you walk into the background and leave the situation and you're still fighting and I think It's actually what's dangers and why I think awareness is so critical, as we have to ask how much of the polarization in conflict in our society is because we naturally walk outside and hate each other and fight each other and how is that we have been ten years in now through this mass warping, of our social psyche, where we see each other with less compassion and less common humanity because social media has polarizes so deeply into a narrow, a narrower worse In view of our own view, I selling a broke record when I do this, but I feel it's so important to always bring this up, which is it's very easy, because the headline getters are pizza gate. and Canon and Wayfair, but make no miss if you're on the left in your liberal and progressive, the Russians were creating fake protests that were attended. I people on the left to
only desire is conflict. Don't necessarily have a position, they want discord. That's what incentive: is so you on the left are every bit as susceptible and being steer deeper into the left, as is the right? Can I give you one more example from what you're talking about the director, the film the social dilemma, his previous two films in an environmentalist previous two films were about the coral die offs in the great barrier, reef chasing eyes, which is about that melting glaciers up north and he fell, out in the research for the film that one of the groups that Russia targeted was? Actually? U s pro environmentalist groups that were anti fracturing and Russia was specifically trying to dial up the reach of anti frightened groups. Why? Because what happens? If you as anti fraction groups, are successful and we don't for oil locally. We have to buy from them. That's right in Russia. basically in oil company posing as a country and then
is totally in their interest, and so this to the fact that that many the things that he is shared and retreated. He said there were anti fraction could have very easily come from. and again so the people really understand. This is not a partisan conversation theres many more countries there in the game now, because this The new means of geopolitical warfare. Its information warfare is incredibly cheap and we're seeing now ran Saudi Arabia. You, eighty Israel, and China. Many other countries that are now in the game. And for me I guess the one check valve I encourage people have as the moment you ve consume. Something in your opponent is now human in your eyes or they are evil or they are a demon. You ve probably your point of view and been firmly anchored in us them and there's no going forward once you're there once it's and in your us. I think that's the thing. need to monitor is after they've consumed something if their eye towards the opposition is
irrational and the people are no longer human. I think that's a good morning flag for you. I think a good measure. There is think back in your life to anything that you felt certain about that there is Earlier believes that you had a very sharp view in that you don't believe anymore. I think that's a good anchor feeling to really lock onto because for any was to be certain and not be curious. an open minded and trusting is one of the hidden factors here is not as having our to good information, it's actually being able to trust new information when it comes in because right now you could tell people you know on the about something bad that Biden did, but if they're provided they don't even trust the information, if it's negative towards Biden, and the same thing is true on the right right in that's. That's where we ve lost. If we're not even willing to update our you are in a relationship. I am yoga Grech, so I hope you ve had this experience. Are we have so it's like malaria, say Tylenol, not bad. For kids, my wife, yes, it is so also
it's tylenol, not harmful for kids, and she searches is tying hot you right and by George. We both are vindicated almost every we have Monica, and I too we get these debates in the manner in which we search. We get exactly what we were hoping for. That's such a good Example, you know if you type in climate change, is not real. You'll get a bunch of results. If you type in climate change, Israel, you'll get a bunch of results, point is that there's infinite people arguing on both sides, and so what we really need is discernment and almost like a more lasting score of who are the most trustworthy dialectic, thinkers who are doing synthesis, who are proving they can steal them. On the other side, there actually no the other arguments, and they can speak in terms of a dialectic of giving power to both sides and then trying to offer synthesis and imagine if our news feeds were ranked synthesis level of speakers instead of whom
even the most outrage, instead of winning with black and white thinking, which is how it works. It s so desirable from our point of view, and it is something that we desperately hope. to be doing at all times on here, which is like making real on sincere argument for your opponent in doing that see, you find more empathy, sympathy and understanding, because you're to make it and then trust, yeah, and then they will trust you more and if they can give you that courtesy, you will trust them more Monica you were just like. Well, I was just going to say, and the synthesis model is actually the antidote to the left right situation. You were bringing up they're, not only going to be able to take down right stuff, because it's going to be the middle ground stuff that rises to the top yeah. That's exactly right here and transcendent thinking. So you know is Biden if he favors climate change sort of deal going against the fracturing. That's done in Pennsylvania. Yes, we're make sure that we have
answer. You can't have just a pro environment, anti fraction position. You need a thing that protects, but we also don't just want the pro fraction people who are going to ruin the environment. We need to make sure we find a synthesis of how do we care for jobs, the environment, children aircraft, all the same time and and put all the values on the top born, say the solution that gets us all of these things, as opposed winning by polarizing and gerrymandering people into predefined predefined belief, that allows you to win elections. Yes, in another thing, I would want people to immediately minted themselves at any one of these very, very hard topics that are being addressed on a governmental level or any kind of level. At best, the best options gonna be sixty percent verses of three percent this I'm right in your wrong. Almost doesn't exist in any of these complex conversations. There isn T fractions right or wrong, there's a sliding percentage of versus
what how much shit are we buy and from Russia? How many oligarchs are we empowering? How many and wars do we have to start to make sure we secure oil. So yes, so every issue is so incredibly complicated in a very stimulating way. I mean that's what I love about its, but anyone who that they have a position that is a hundred percent accurate. If there be naive, I think I think I love you. also you're a fucking hero man, the first few times I heard you, I didn't understand in the full scope of what you were talking about and you're really kind of, if not among the vanguards, who are really helping us understand the outcome of this ten year. Long experience, so we I thank you from bottom, my heart when I think of my children, I'm grateful that there's someone like you, I would thank you, so much is really really great conversation. I really hope people, into some hope as well, that we can change this system mean, I think of it. Like a body, that- doesn't know that it's eating itself, if only one neuron wakes up
the body doesn't stop eating itself, but if all the neurons wake up, then we stop eating ourselves and- and I think the thing that gives me hope is with film the social dilemma and something like for the fifty million people having seen it. That's your how big their civil rights movement, how big the gay rights movement in a week, actually have a constituency that, if enough people see where we ve talked about for the last hour and a half in a week actually solve this problem, and that's what gives me some hope is. I wish I could turn my inbox inside out, so people can see just common. The feeling that we need to change this is the question: is how do we harness that in its war? We're trying to do you know why, with our work at the center for humane technologies, gonna say some people want to support the great work you're doing I imagined centre for humane technology is a non profit
we're building a movement center for for humane technology, a nonprofit nonprofit and we're trying to create story bank of ways that people can share their own stories, so the movement can see itself so that everybody can see everyone else's stories. Please go to humane tech, dot com and you can get involved in various ways there, along with we have another podcast called your undivided attention that dives into some of the topics that are in the film too, so listen to your undivided attention and to humane tech, dot com and his right watch some story- shares story, donate some money. I myself so do. I met wise and social needs likely, while we already have if you're saying this odds, are you probably but yes He's got all these places and I commit right now to go to those places and start helping. So thank you so much Tristan. Thank you both really my pleasure in Poland talk again, but better news.
We have better news, I'm sorry if this was a really sensitive to her dark deficits that are not people the sea, it now the bigger the pain, the bigger the motivation. So it's like just show people. It is not, I propose to say minimally, the seeds have been planned for a civil war. No, I do not believe will be a civil war, but the seeds are in the ground. There is no question, I think, in my way of seeing this, that the film is meant to be a big part button as we were trending in that direction, not that the film is going to stop people from that, if that's bound to happen, but it's a kind of a cognitive perch that lets everybody climb up and say: look what happened to us. Don't go that way. That's gonna happen. If you do that, that's not! What we want in my biggest hope is that you know it's it's. Hopefully, controlling alone but to cooling off some of those tensions. We had some people say actually that, instead of watching the presidential debates for ninety minutes, they found for their family members and a better conversation by watching with their family. They couldn't agree with watch the social, for ninety minutes, yeah. That was a better use of kind of here.
Some of the divides, why they couldn't tak to each other. I agree. I think we can all see ourselves in that documentary. I know I can all right well again. Thank you so much. Thank you both really great to meet you yeah yeah and now my favorite part of the show the fact check, with my soul, mate Monica Admin, oh, tell recall how you're getting so advanced at your job that you can now activate our recorder with your tongue. Now I'm ferry decks turns in my toe regions, oranges, Dexter Dollar, two opposing Might Tony Alex we're right now it does why, because it's grown out a little bit, no, because it started to break so I have to break one half off. So now there's a point: there's a stupid point at the end, What interests me my looking at your foot like you, look like a puppy upstairs generally like a young puppy and then your looks like a woman's flight
yeah that looks like a woman's foot. Oh my god, like a mom's foot. No, no! No! No! Just a woman! Ladies foot yeah like if I were younger and I was at the pool at a hotel- and I saw a woman. Maybe she's got a teeny glass and a cigarette with a cigarette elder and like a pin up I'll bathing suit from the fifties. High wasted. That might be. The four If you had a foot fetish, would you like of course were. Actually. I cannot even really comprehend the foot fetish thing, so I won't leave it's hard for me to guess interests like. I have no opinion on what feed I like.
like you, could just keep bringing him past me and I go yeah, it's nice, that's nice or that's, not nice, but I couldn't give you criteria for what's nice and not nice. Well, we have a friend who I won't out. Who has a foot fetish? Oh, oh, oh yeah, you didn't know if you ever catch him like perving out at your feet. He told me I had beautiful feet. Oh did you feel good or scared? I felt good since he has a foot fetish and he's an office. Yes, and he knows a lot about fee and what's attractive and what's not and he liked mine, oh wow, who doesn't he like mine, obviously tell me you didn't he didn't say I dont like this person's photo right. Ok, the hidden he wasn't mean about it. You just said I had beautiful thing. and he knows all of our shoe sizes. Do you ever catch him staring at your feet? Moral swimming I've were caught him, but we were swimming. When he told me, I had beautiful feed and you probably catch people looking at your boob, sometimes right,
no. What's weird, I mean I know people are here, but I'm never hatchings, someone, okay locked in the I. I think people do a good job of not just like access again. They just take a quick glance, probably every colony of the Gatt holes staring at So I would imagine the girls are just as prone to probably lock in autumn for sure I've even more so because I could see a big boy, George and Charlie or Ryan's bathing suit, I'm probably on it longer than any of the female yeah. Definitely I can't I have been about my very observant, so maybe everyone's stand me the greatest eyesight as we discuss two. So we maybe you just when you look you to see a blur. The Munich currently pinpoint where the eyes are. I don't they see eyes and you tell what I am sterner Reno my eyes near me.
oh I wouldn't. I guess that really the ideal is. Oh, my god. Oh my god, this is real. Haven't I closed my eyes? You you look somewhere else. Can I open your action? My phone? No, well minority here I switch kneecaps. Allow I'm trying to keep. This is mean as possible because they give staring at your elbow. Everyone knows your elbows roughly on the same latitude as your boobs, so people would be like get real you're gonna stare at our elbow quote quote, and so I'm really trying to be somewhere very safe. So your knee in this example- and I might go oh, I got one shoulder. Yep boom wow I got good at this game now. I've had a big big development, a virtually it's like I have a new nationality. Now tell people all God. I hate to say this because I was so proud of my resilience. I've switch to an
if you have I've, switched the color to the court, call it a club. Okay, the reason I don't call it a cult is because it's the majority, it's not like a faction. so I gave her one hath an eye for an eye gray. I agree, but there are militant members of the group that are almost in a call like Ryan Ryan we'll tell you within sixty one days when the next product is coming out and he's already got plans to get it, but he already has the twelve and so does my yeah. I know yeah, like he's the first person to have it so he's kind of on the cut end of the spectrum. I'd say of the group. Okay, so primarily I got it because children lose the apple tv remounts. That digits, I think, a complain about before, but we have, six of them in any given time the whereabouts
of one is now the air and it'll show up somewhere crazy, like the laundry room. So now you gotta go around all six and see which, when it works with TAT in the gas in so nice to me defence against that has been. I can pull my eye packs out in controlled apple tv with my back I want a fucking lug around my eye packs all the time when I wanna watch Tele. So I was thinking I just gotta have a remote in my pocket. That's really rob this entire thing. Wow unrest. Even video from you guys who are in the call for so many times. You guys make you got great videos and use it. from the Christian or I and we Nancy Shit. It's the lowest great video. You can imagine we can't a what's going out. We can hear and then some shadows kunak. What, when you're looking to see people are looking at your hungers? Why it's a shadow though so what you're saying is where I see a normal life, he adds the bomb and I'm sick about air, but
to say, Samson great product. Really, I'm gonna miss my ass ten zero lunch, you argues. You're still cannot use your care on two foggy out. Currently I do I have my s. Turn on the arrest of the lazy boy am, I knew I found what you need to come up with a name for it soon, my growing while I'm I'm I'm not alley there for you not. I have them fear. Ok, I have a fear on behalf of Europe. I packs ok the feeling you're not going to be spending any more time on that. I packs and you abandon your son and you replace your son with a new baby, and that Bapter, slimmer and smaller and more efficient and funnier I think it's gonna be well. That's a very realistic concerned have for the pact's my son, but
I can tell you right now, like I'm going to the dunes in a few days right yeah. So what I'll do I'll bring the the pack and lay in bed at night and I'll watch Netflix? in the motorist okay on the pace, so I'll still watch a lot of content or when I'm here in the attic. and you're. Not here, U S, tv, land, here. I shall let you watch tv with me in here or we watch the election. I was a crucial time we kept at on like like a ticker. We just had that that, on the background, that's how my family has their life there? That's literally their life, they just have CNN or MSNBC on in the background of their life, always well. Feel safe, even though it should make them feel very scared because it just updates of calamity across the globe when I'm home for Christmas, and I come back I'm there for like two weeks and I have never over the most informed, Diane the whole year. Okay, I know everything you try to carry that, but don't you find and don't they find like at times I try to watch that.
is the same fucking thing for fourteen hours. That's what's mad me! It's like you, have all these different hosts and programmes, but they talk about the exact same thing. that it is. I don't know how that interests. Anyone I know in case. Oh, it's the swap machine and a tree in her head, ding, Ding, Ding, Tristan he, oh, my god, good ding, Ding Ding, what a great segue that was. He is let too hard to have so many brilliant gas, but The way his brain works is Russia, India give him instead of like because we're always tempted to say someone's the smartest person we talk to, and that's just becoming that I'm going to say, he's a freak. I know as a good knowledge is frequently smart people don't like to be called freaks. All they know Now what about freaks and geeks yeah? That was love? Wouldn't you love to have been on freaks and yeah?
be known forever. As one of the freaks orgy, I would ask you, as I am a bit Tristan, as well freak on the dance floor. That's a big ol, that's good yeah or a freak freak, the sheets yeah. Everyone wants to be called between the sheets. That's true he's a freak between the ears, it's so great that he is devoted. yeah certainly walked away. Well, actually I don't know his finances, but my assumption is: he walked away from a pile of money being as smart as he is in that industry. I agree, maybe he's still like a genius investor, though I hope so yeah, I hope he's rich. I hope he's a freak investor. I hope he's a freak in the streets. I hope he's a freak in the Wall Street and a freaking the sheets, I hope, he's a freak in the wall streets and a geek in the sheets. Why? I don't know You got to change the word. What do you think a geek in the sheets is like, I think, meticulous about your anatomy? Oh you're, hot
bankers in your ding ding? I'm going to start listing some facts now. So first fact did they have a Charles Schulz ICE Skating, rink in Santa Rosa. I don't know, I know for sure there was okay and was it at the Museum research Center. I don't know was located. I'm gonna guess who is there there's a museum dedicated to the works of Charles Schultz, creator of the Peanuts Comic Strip opened in two thousand and is in Santa Rosa. The museum is home and if the original peanut strips as well as other artwork by Schulz, to works by job artists. Whatever I mean not no offensive. Japanese artist, just given not relevant to Charles Short, don't believe you was japanese in any way. Okay, there's a three whoa there's a three and a half ton would sculpture, depicting the evolution of Snoopy
and a twenty two foot high ceramic mural made of three thousand five hundred and eighty eight peanuts strips, which combined to form the image blue, see oh wow wow! That's from the japanese artists, but you say our relevant now, yes, those are by now chinese arta! Ok, companies are really good at are sure. I guess I'll many japanese people are granted are software to say, it's. It's it's the same as saying they're all about at some, so I can show you a japanese or bad at having blocked air. Ok, That's not good at having blonde! Well they're, not good at producing blue, that's right by their hair blonde. It still looks good good point. That's a really good point counterpoint! Oh! I have another one, oh
Japanese are really really bad at being born in China. Historically, I guess majority of them are properly not good at being born in China, but some are good at being born in China. I know there's been plenty of japanese people in China exactly I know one. Okay, the Japanese are terrible at flying and I don't mean in an airplane, I mean individually like a bird. Yes, ok, although someone's gonna say there's a japanese person in the wings you. Ah, this is hard really hard. I'm glad it's hard. Ok. ok, the quiz from the New York Times that can pin point your exact, zip code after asking twenty five questions about your like word choices. Is called how y'all use and you guys talk
Can we try it yeah, although what's going to be tricky, is that you know I've intentionally changed some of mine? Like I say you all, as I think it's you all the best, because often when say you guys and there's women present or at one time it happened in and had transition and two female and I said, hey guys. Sorry I was late and then I just panicked. I was like oh boy just did it come up? No, I don't think the person cared at all, but I just panicked. Okay, and then I do so. I'm gonna get rid of guys cause it's gender. the EU is gonna, go the all been roles of the tongue. For me, it's obvious arose. Appetite for me I wish you said it or you don't say it very of I used to say it exclusively and you probably tried to break yourself at a habit when you came to LOS Angeles or it just happened organically. It's great. It's really useful, it's better than
You guys you're right. I don't like that. We're calling a bunch of worlds. You guys it's kind of patriarchal yeah. Okay, let's play! Let's try! Okay, it's twenty five questions. Okay, great! We'll! Do you first? Do you first, no we'll see first, okay, how would you address a group of two or more people? First question what we just talked about. I'm going to be honest, be honest! Not what you've changed too? Okay, you guys do you want to hear the list, though yeah there's a lot. So maybe there's you all use. No, that's new jersey! You lot. You guys, euins real deep south me ends, you other the all you guys What do you call the small gray bug that curls up into a ball in its touch? Slowly boy, obsolete in again pill, bug, doodle, bug, potato bug, Rowley Paulie.
So bog, basketball bug twiddle bug, roll up bug would louse millipedes Senate. I know what this creature is, but have no word for it. I have no idea what this creature is be telling. Maybe doesnt exists in the Pacific Northwest exactly what do you call the thing from which you might drink water in a school drinking run, options are Babbler water, Babbler drinking water, fountain other. So what do you call the law are wild cat native to the Americas of Mountain Lion, Cougar Puma, Mountain cat Panther. MT mountain screamer painter
mountain screamer, that's gotta, be apple, a shirt or something mountain screaming scream y'all hear that mountain screamer last night kept me up to well past midnight. I didn't get a damn bit of shuteye last night that mountain screamer was haloing out the back of my door: I shut all the windows. That's pretty good! Thank you, rare that you, like my thing that just passed the I was proud that you also changed windows, to Windows, os busy doing some worse and so now, here this mountain yaller? What is it a screamer screamer mountain screamer start yep in Ineao in the back. I should all the windows and shut down the worse. What's a worse, wash washing your clothes? Ok, how do you pronounce this word C r, a while, when Graham said again plan with a blue plan can like c r n. So are you saying it one syllable.
I got a new box of crayons, we say new the grounds, not crayons cranes, but that's it. Kind of ok here. The options with ones Bull rhymes with man plan was what you're saying with two syllable sounds like crayon with two so where the second syllable rhymes, with dawn on Cray on oh, the two, so first one is crayon ran closer to? What you're saying can sounds like crown, okay, so you are one syllable rhymes with man. Alright. What what do you when rain falls, when the sun is shining Devils beaten his wife, but I know that's from Kentucky because that's from my grandma it's on here- oh my god. Oh my god. I did not expect that to. Oh, my god, I'm glad it's on there. So do I count it? That's the only thing I know to call okay: what are the options there? I would call it sun shower. I think, let's see
Oh ok, son shower. Ok, the wolf is giving birth. Oh wow, the devil is reading. His will hire monkeys wedding. should we said monkeys wearing that axes, wedding, pint apple rain, liquid son. I have no termer expression for this or other If it were my grandma, I don't think I'd have a term for it. I don't think so, but let's go with it anyway. What it says it's going to be anomaly: what do you call a drive through liquor store? We don't have them. I've never heard of such a thing. Okay, the other ones are brew through party barn, bootless, beer, barn, beverage, barn. We have these in my area, but I have no special term for them and I've never heard of such a thing. You didn't have them in Georgia. I have never heard of that either. What do you call it? Traffic situation in which several roads meet in a circle. Roundabout, a rotary roundabout circle, traffic circle traffic fix circus. I have no word for this other all this week
they just added roundabouts to Michigan like ten years ago. now when I go home, I'm in a roundabout than on any other. I don't like roundabouts person, people have a big issue. I see the people in Michigan they're still adjusting to them. They're like they cannot figure out. What's supposed to happen? Okay, how do you pronounce. A second syllable of this word again, because I don't want to lead the WI exactly p, a J, a M, a ass pajamas with the Van in jam with the vowel and palm jam. What do you something that is across both streets from you at an intersection or diagonally across from you in General Kitty Corner, Caddy corner I hate, Caddy corner is mine. I hate that I hate Kitty corner okay, kitty, corner kit, corner Catter, corner catty corner. that's mine, Kitty Cross Kitty want Bess these Gary wanders. Did you know
I said scary whoppers during space, a moron that wasn't a worse that it's caddywompus. I got it from a girl sketch in the ground, Oh, I got it from you right. It's a very catchy! Word cattywampus! I love it. I don't really give a fuck of whether it existed prior yeah. Like the word we said the most in childhood, my brother and I was bungy a bug. Bundy's? No, it's! Actually the build up of and ones, but she answered that's not a word, but we used at the mouse and I love it. Bundy like if you saw someone scratching their butt. You go oh boy that guy's got monkey and we'll Your kids, we were always on bungee patrol heard Bundy by. oh I don't we never said Bunki, but we just said if it's bungee this list, the build up of extraordinary about. What do you call the like that flies around in the summer and glow in the dark. Lightning, ball, lightning bug Firefly
I use lightning bug and Firefly Wally? No, I have no. I have no other for this. Want me. use a lightning bugs quick. Do you want. We also say fireflies. You fireflies me to do interchangeable. I think so. Okay, I think that'd be most honest. How do you pronounce this word b e e n I've been mad. That b, I n yeah with the vowel and sit with the vowel in sea bean, no, but the vowel and set Ben Have you been? Have you been doing? I been there dear? I, what? Call easy high school or college class, easy, high school or college class basket, weaving no
okay, like the options, are gut crypt course. Crypt course, bird blow off meat or other meat or other I guess blow off would be the only one I've heard in that list. Yeah it's a blow off class yeah. Its basket weaving family, Sir we're already we Bosnia easier basket, weaving six may mean they offered it. When my parents went to high school, you can basket weaving if you can't get a fucking ambassador, Lonnie Chimpanzee can weave. I bet I wouldn't be very good at the Euro. How do you pronounce towards this them cowboy capital, a our why Mary came M e r r, why Mary and m a r r y Mary? Okay, you pronounce them all the same? Yes, okay, all three are pronounced. The same. All three are pronouncing
different leave, em a are. Why and am iii are. Why are pronounced? The same but am a are: why is it if I had as all those ok what the distinction between dinner and supper, a dinner, but I I purposely say supper now, or should I say I dont use a word? Supper could do, but you didn't exactly: ok supper an evening meal dinner ASEAN earlier, suppers and evening meal dinner? Is the main meal dinner takes place in a more formal setting? Them supper no distinction. They both have the same meaning I dont use were supper. I dont use or dinner of her. What do you call the grass, in the middle of some street Medium Boulevard, midway, traffic island island, neutral ground. I have no word for this median or other. Oh good relieved when the word I say is on the last year and if you So far, you years of Albania. Where are you
the long sandwich that contains cold cuts, lettuces and so on? I know a lot of words for it, I'm going to try to think of what would be most your natural there's, huge footlong dagwood, I love Dagwood. Probably a foot long is that an option or hog would be next The law is not because sometimes there only only six so hokey, but you told me I get sub, that's mine all its sub grinder, call all of her growing, really annoying hoagie me here oh yeah hero, that's the thing, tat everything, my garden, poor boy, oh bomb, Obama, Italian, sandwich Baghdad. Say. I have no word for this other okay circling bombers over there, that sounds fine go for amendment monkey fuck? What was it
monkey when it wedding monkeys by marriage? Ok, how'd, you pronounced the first syllable of the word, L a you. Why e r a w. I I the lawyer lawyer, so rhymes with boy there's also rhymes with flaw- and I you, both pronunciations, it's a long task. I know we're almost kind done What do you call? night before Halloween. Devils now We won name for the night, for Halloween, gate night trick night mischief night cabbage night, Goosey night night, devil's eye. I have no word for this other I would say I have no word for this. Okay. What are you all doing for cabbage night? That does sound very We deserve a cabbage and I like because you know cabbage night.
die or Megan Soup? Do you call the sweet spread that is put on a cake crossing or icing frosty thrusting icing crossing an icing referred a different things both There are other. What do you call the rubber sold shoes warning in gym class or for athletic events? Sneakers do too Nigger, shoes, Jim Shoes and Jimmy Sands jumpers, ten issues, that's what yeah tennis shoes! That's what we would say way more than whatever I said. Grab your tennis shoes up running running shoes, runners trainers. How do you pronounce see a are a meal. Como Karma Palermo two Syllables Carmel, not caramel! That's how I That's how I sign it really is also fancy. It sounds like waiting an easy coups d pernounce. The word c, o t,
caught the same. I got caught no all caught caught, so you count them differently. Yeah wow. Do you pronounce them to say? Yeah, oh wow, he caught me up the cot Baltic. What what do you call the area of grass between the sidewalk in the road rushed in sidewalk in the road? What are some options? Burma, parking tree, lawn terrorist, curb Strip belt way verge? I have no word for the final thing I have for last question would you call a sale of unwanted items on your porch and your yard etc as well Now, I'm so fucked with the last twenty five years nl. I, but I think a garage sale me. I would congratulate you, okay, tat, sale, yard, sale, garage, sale, rummage, sale, proof, sale, stoop, sale, carport sale. sidewalk sale, jumble, jumble, sale, car boot, car boot sale, it's jumble,
That's got to be like Orleans or something I don't know it will do no harm and submit you I'm going to try to is an overly did now yeah okay. So it has a map of most similar least similar. It has these maps show your most distinctive answer for each of these cities Grand Rapids, so it got it Why those crazy it's only give me a zip code, but it's crazy. I didn't give you a zip code, but still it's still crazy. I'm still crazy! Yeah wow wow. Try that quiz yeah, how interesting or do you think they got? So bored during hours are like runaway thing to do. With that question, I hope that they did it in their own. They don't get their answer. That's why they need to go. Do it all? So,
You wrote down your answer, so you can do quickly exactly anything I'll. Tell me about myself: now: ok, lots of fear of financial insecurity. You talked about happiness, metrics and how Sweden is ranked number one country and happiness. first right now is Finland. Okay, then Denmark, Norway, Iceland and the Netherlands right now. Neil languages are there in Ethiopia, Tristan thought maybe five I saw a figure that said eighty six, individual languages, indigenous to Ethiopia. Oh boy, okay, yeah how long did Johnson and Johnson take tall off the shelves back in the day when it was being poisoned and tampered with. I can't find an amount of time, but they did take.
Thirty, one million bottles won the first major recalls in american history. It was in the Chicago metropolitan area. Seven individuals died extra town, all that had been deliberately laced with science. Oh, my god, I cannot of the many layers of murders. I can't really relate to. it's in descending order right, like a guy who catches I sleeping with his wife and loses his mind and kill that that seems like okay yeah. That can happen. Onward and downward even serial killer is now before this person. Like just randomly poison. Some things and you'll never see yeah. It seems very weird yeah, it's kind of like it's a bad analogy. I'm going to ditch it. I was going to say like if you had a button and you blob a star that you never see. Why even do it
say you do it. I blew a star, I guess they tell tell me tell tell me when I this. This the star will blow up but I don't know, I'm sure this person follows the news that is is like happy in there. There's a good chance of that? There was a good chance that that's not even going to be detected. I know that was the big risk part of the now is car, the joy they get when it does. I dont understand, I'm glad you don't understand a year and we don't have the mind of a killer. Yeah. I mean I guess Some of the aspects of killing I understand like I wanted to do it, but I understand like understand feeling inferior in wanting to be smarter than everyone prove that you could do something and not get car. I understand that motivation. I wouldn't kill to do that. I understand that, like all I want to proven smarter than everyone. The deal I mean
I conceptually you. Actually I can understand it. I think that there's someone I mean, that's the so entitled phobias, terrible terrible murder. I can stand firm on that Only I was that everything that was everything for Tristan all me and I really enjoyed him and boil boy. I think the tipping point has happened because of that movie and a few other things I believe people, A really start in a broadly understand the risks of all this technology, which is in urging and I think we're gonna see some governmental regulations that are gonna help curb it and I regret now when I said to Bill bill gates. You find it ridiculous that these folks, who have created this amazing things, have to sit in front of a Senate sub. committee in some assholes saying his email gets bounced back when he sends it to his son.
But yeah that there's. I regret it. Alright, that's a big thing to admit. I'm a Meda and obvious he's gonna play my Iphone TBD Eve, its name. I then you get caught up. I perhaps but that's sounds car racist about a year, a pony run so you're going to call Tony on by the way, if anyone has not heard the Leon Bridges version of Tony, it is the second time we talk about Leon Bridges. We love him, we love love. Should he come on. I would love it You think he'll talked to us on one of those steel microphones and it sound like sixties, distorted the way his is music to well that'd, be behind, like we were on time, travel interviewer, leaving you from the sixties today, Queens Ganda, oh my gosh
Transcript generated on 2020-11-20.