Join Ben Shapiro as he sits down with author of "The Righteous Mind," Jonathan Haidt, as they discuss whether the right and left can ever reconcile, the problem with feelings, why identity politics is so, so dangerous, and much more. Date: 10-07-2018
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
If we want to be a light to the world. If we think that democracy and liberty or import virtues we need to get our own house more procuring, are on the Sunday special professor Jonathan Height of N Y, you we're gonna, get up all of my questions about his brand new book. The cobbling of the american mine, which is riddled with red looking off over at the fire or gets all that stuff was the righteous, might all sorts of great stop at first. Let's talk about your impending doom. Seventy one percent of people say they need life insurance, but only fifty nine percent have coverage, which means at least One per cent of people are procrastinating and only thirty percent are idiots normally procrastinating is a bad thing, but if you ve been avoiding getting life, insurance procrastinating may, in this case of work in your favour, because, while you are putting off getting licence policy genius was making it easy. How He genius is the easy way to compare life insurance online. You can compare quotes and just five minutes once that easy putting it off becomes a lot reed and compare quotes while sitting on the couch watching tv you can compare.
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jewish liberal academic type. That's my backing. I grew up hating, while Richard Nixon there's little kid you're supposed to heat, Nixon and then Reagan I be, and studying cultural psychology in graduate school. Looking at how nations vary in their moral in there and their moral worldviews and then as the when the Democrats lost in two thousand and then again in two thousand for I began, I was very upset and I said I can't stand it that the Democrats dont know how to talk about morale but he and I can help them. And so I started converting my research over my research from how countries vary too. How left and right very because by then left and right in his country, were becoming like different countries with different? U S, history and even different constitutions, and so I committed to understand a conservative that it could help explain, conservative morality and, in the course of reading conservative and libertarian philosophy ideas.
I realized. Oh, my god. You actually have to look at problems from different perspectives to understand them over time. I kind of stepped out. Still got, but the Republican Party later, I have very little to say about the Republican Party sites. I no longer identifies being on any team. I study moral psychology, I'm a social scientists and I think, as its social psychologist, if you're doing social science, it's really helpful to not beyond a team to have the independence to just try to study problem. So that's my background. So as a precursor to discussing some these, you discuss the calling of the american mind a thing. It's almost necessary to talk about your earlier, but the righteous mine, because that sort of provides the into actual framework for what you talk about in the new book. So I went ass some questions about about. Where that soap, to fill in folks, who may not have read the book, you make an argument that they're a bunch of different moral axes, along which people were that the people don't just work along the idea of good and bad. This breaks down into a number of different categories and the left and right you this. Categories differently. So what exactly are those moral access and have they planned a pilot area?
from studying morality across cultures and reading the old testament and the Koran and reading ethnography from non western societies. It was really clear that fit everywhere. You look people understand, in a harm in pain and suffering of that, that's a moral issue and reciprocity and fair that's that a moral issue everywhere, but when you go to other issues like respect for authority, but very common Some places are really egalitarian and sore in group loyal that's very common, but some places less important and then that sets for access or dimensions and then the fifth one is sanctity or purity. The idea is that the bodies a temple it must be protected. From from degradation, so the kosher laws and Judaism are sufficient. Learn some ways to the Hindu strict on eating and prayer. Things like that, so it says, the fear that I developed, based in part on the ideas of Richard swayed or my buys with universal, was The moral mind is like the way the tongue has
five different taste buds on it for to pick up five different chemical properties of the world, our minds is, though, they have five or more different moral taste, buds and different religions. Different Political philosophies, build a structure on some of those. What I found empirically for doing research survey, Workin other kinds of work that people on the left in America and in general in other countries too, Morality mostly on issues of care, harm, protection of the vulnerable and then fairness, but fairness as equality where social conservatives they have those, but they see seafarers, Morris proportionality, do the crime, do tie that sort of thing- and they also care a lot more about group loyalty, respect for authority and a sense of sanctity or purity- and if you have that vocabulary, those five moral foundation, You can understand why left him? I can't understand each other and most cultural war issues into
what that with that sort of implies and into underscored by the other point, the you making the righteous mine which the people are largely driven by intuition, rather than how we like to think of ourselves as reasonable creatures gift. That's the case. There ever really be any sort of conciliation in terms of politics resolve this sort of the American like there there's no way to come to her to have even conversation right, so so, philosophically in and psychologically I'm an intuition IST means I think intuition is where the action is into with more our moral intuitions come first and they drive our reasoning afterwards. That might make it see as though we therefore cannot agree because just driven by got feelings but more complicated than that, because our Two wishes come first, but they are equitable. They are changeable. We can't change each other, intuition. Just by throwing reasons enough left am I talking to each other. Well, you know don't you care about in respect for your parents, you can just throw things that each other, but in relationships. We we come to listen to somebody. Would we
we talk with someone our minds can now. This is an amazing ability that humans have no other animal. Has we can move held our minds. If were open to that end and we can actually here each other. That's what happened to me when I set out to understand conservative thought I actually met you conservatism? There were not many in my world list. I talk to some people. They were very decent people, so through relationships with the right kind of relationships. We actually can open our minds and hearts. A great novel can do that, a great at Margaret. He can do that and one of the tragedies are national life. Is that, while we used to be fairly mixed politically and we were more separated racially in another way, we ve got more. Mixed along a lot of access, but we're getting more and more separate. Politically, we live more and more and more surefire filter bubbles, and that makes it harder to empathize. It exacerbates, are political divide and it damages our demand. Creasy, so that brings us to the new book, the coddling of the American, my which really talks about the ramifications of exactly the sort of debate and in the end.
However, the american mind. You talk about what you consider three big problems in american society today. If you wanted just to eliminate those I'd, be sent sure so the books based around three great untruths. My first book, the happiness hypothesis, was actually about ten insights You find an ancient cultures all over the world, psychological insights and so one of them, is what doesn't kill. You makes you stronger neat that was beaches formulae. Listen, but you find the exact same idea in Menstuous, an ancient China. You find it all over. The world that kids need challenge human beings need challenge obstacles, failure set back in order to grow. So that's a basic truth. That's a psychological shoes but what were fighting on campus were finding in the lives of american kids is an increasing the increasing presence of the idea that what doesnt chill you makes you weaker. That is In fact, oh, my god, they're just just recently, is an artist making the rounds.
Kids are, are mobilizing in high school to for two to end the practice of regular public speaking that, We know some kids have anxiety, run public speaking the best for a common one, the article one of the lines in this Atlantic article quoted a high school kid saying nobody should be forced to do something that they're not comfortable, doing wow well. Can you imagine raising kids with that dictum? How would they come out if this is true that we need challenges set backs even Here we have to be afraid and overcome. It and realize oh, I can do that and if we give in to this dear that no one should be forced to do anything there uncomfortable doing. We are setting up the next generation for failure and that's exactly are subtitle. How good intentions and bad ideas are setting up a generation for failure more briefly. The second great untruth is always trust. Your feelings and the third is life- is a battle between good people and evil. People
and our contention is it in the book? Is that if we can successfully teach the young generation all three of these great untruths, the almost guaranteed to fail? What little talk about that at last, we gonna last Branford seems to me the most dangerous one of all. Did these attempts to favour feelings, I think have along subjective history in always made high into the intuition. Isn't that you talk about earlier David Hume suggesting that, basically, we are creatures. Action and then the reasons for the brides on top pretending, but with with that without said, when it as to the question of your people, seeing each other's is good evil. You think that springing
more from one side of the oven than another dude you. How do you see that that chain of causality moving well, let's hold off on the question of who is to blame or who is more guilty of this? Let us start with the basic psychology here, which is that human beings evolved for tribal is, and this is actually a great secret, chimpanzees hunting that they have passed. They have troops and they control territory that are able to do this now. But to have battles between groups, but humans are the masters of this, and while it might sound bad actually, it enables us to cooperate It enables us to have it our moral world, so we are by nature tribal and that's what got us into civilization, but modern, liberal democracies are brilliant at turning that down to allow people to live more peacefully. Humans go very quickly to tribalism, but we can also too.
It down we're very good. Trade were curious, that other groups as well, and so a good modern society, is one that find ways to turn that down. Allow people to live near others were different from them, with no hostility, no violence, and we did a pretty good job that the Twentyth century and there was a huge wave towards democracy. So it made a lot of progress in the last few centuries. Overcoming tribalism and the problem is that it so easy to turn it back on and a lot of what's happening in our politics between left and right, that's been accelerating, since the nineteen nineties cross, partisan hatred keeps going up in up since the nineteen, eighty or ninety, and unfortunately, now with certain forms of identity. Politics were finding these these ten, since between groups in the United States- and I just read it there's a new book out called the tribes have been like that in Britain very much the same processes is happening, the UK. So this I'm very alarming that are our society are politics. Social media are turning up our tribalism.
What what do you think that increased tribalism is coming from, because my theory, which would be that based on sort of robber, Putnams, believe in diversity of of ethnicity being less beneficial than for example, solidarity with regard to opinion, meaning that diversity is great so long as we all share a common goal, but is that if we launch our common goals and everything fractures pretty quickly that the legal order the nature of the United States, a common culture that we shared has basically disintegrated since the nineteen sixties in some ways, that's for good on issues of saxon race, for example, but in some ways they ve been quite bad in terms of traditional morality. In my view, the stuff that held the social fabric together, it seems like that's, what's been frame This is the social fabric, and what that's done is its thrust. People back into the the. I believe that that you're talking about what would you attributed rising tribal, isn't too.
The way that I think about. What's happened to our country is that in a large secular society, there are a lot of forces blowing us apart in their lot, fooling us together, and if you go back to the mid too late twentieth century, everything was lined up to pull together. We'd had extraordinarily high rates of of immigration in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. That's what my grandparents came over from Russia, Poland, there A wave of anti immigrant backlash and in the twenties the gates were shot. Immigration went way down and, as you say, immigration has many good effects and many bad effects. Yet you have to look at it honestly and try to maximize the good
so we had by the seventies and eighties, with very low rates of foreign born. There was a dominant culture. It was the worst culture. David Brooks has written brilliantly about how the wasps set up a meritocracy within which Jews and Asians and other groups were able to succeed. We had a common enemy. Still in the Soviet Union, we had a functioning political culture in Washington with a lot of bi partisanship in the media system. There are three networks, and so there was more. We have in common sources of new, so all those things were lined up, and this was the center of american greatness and all over the world. People look to American is have wow. We want what they ve got: let's copy their constitution, let's copy their culture. We were the light of the world opposites plenty of anti Americanism too, but there's a lot of admiration for us and they one by one. The centrifugal forces pulling together began to weaken the environment, obviously reversed beginning with cable tv all the way through the social media. Now it's fraction aid in us
the odyssey immigration greatly increase beginning in the sixties, and again many good things. The economists are clear: immigration is good economically but, as you say, the issues of social trust and cohesion, Robert Putnams work and others suggest that that that drops trust in others drops and to have a functioning democracy. It really helps to have cross group trust to not be suspicious of each other, so in so many ways things a kind of turned around, and we have to do some serious thinking What is it going to take to restore that that the social support for an effective democracy I mean I do wonder if one of the things that it's gonna take something is completely unpalatable too. One side of the political, at least in that is a return to social institutions that people don't like very much, particularly on the laptop I want to ask about that in just one second. First, let's talk about your psyche, four show is sponsored by talk space, the online therapy company that lets you message: a licence therapist from anywhere at any time. All you need is a computer with internet connection or the tax base
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of your first month and show your support for the show its Shapiro and talk space, dot com, Slash Shapiro, for that special deal, go check it out right now. Thank God, I thought I spoke quickly. You're amazing, thank you. Tat is my career falls to lobby the guy at the end of the commercial issues, all of the legal warnings. So if we're talking about the sort of forces that need to come back together, it seems like there There are certain forces that is almost impossible to bring back together and the one. That most need be brought back together are the ones that maybe least palatable. What I mean by that clarify is that social fabric for two hundred years of honey of years throughout western civilization, was basically basin jerk. You found your community in the church and the synagogue you had a common judeo christian heritage and with rise of secularism, which has come along with a lot of economic benefits. For sure, a lot of time Firstly, in terms of the kinds of people who are treated well, and there is also been a consummate decline, a continent decline in the social fabric
what's tearing people apart, seems lot stronger than was bring us together, and it seems like that whole is being filled by political tribalism. To fill those values with whatever I think my tribe is ended, We particularly now to get to the westward. Obviously I am on the right now and I have plenty of criticisms, where the right main criticism of of the left these days, is that the left is full and into a sort of tribal. Isn't it refuses to even acknowledged that another tribe exists or that there are other. There are other people who perceive problems differently so to go back to your discussion. Of the various valleys and righteous mind. You suggest that basically, the political left bases itself on a couple of values, fairness and harm, If those are the values you base herself upon them by necessity, you have to be implying even to yourself that the others side is for unfairness and for harm by that in all before that, there cannot be any bridging the gap, because the only valid The matter are harm perceived as anything
bad. That happens anything. I disagree with results in a certain number of people. Getting hurt and fairness in that a person who disagrees with me is in favour of the real institution of a patriarch you're, a hierarchical system and you're spotting that evil everywhere you look, how can that possibly bridge with votes on left, actually acknowledging that there are other sets of values that they come into play that those ones actually drive people and may not be in fact bad. So I think what you're pointing to his knees, symmetry and mutual understanding, and I have evidence that that's that's true. Surrender research site at your morals, dock work and we ve had about a half million people go to their go there and take our surveys and one experiment. We had people take our basic instrument, the moral foundations question at which it gives you a score on these five foundations, and we had one third of the people just filled it out for themselves. One third were told: please fill this out as the typical liberal, a progressive would one third which old fill it out as a typical conservative. Would we
and is that moderates are able to correctly predict how everyone who fill it up. Conservatives were almost as good as moderates, and it was people on the left, especially the far left, were very inaccurate and is for precisely that reason that you say that, because they couldn't see he's questions about loyalty there is sanctity. They couldn't see those as moral virtues so on the questions but harm and fear. Is this about? Conservatives? Don't care about cruelty to animals and children, so I do think- and this was my case to it- I was very well educated in the United States, which means I learned nothing about conservatism. I learned very little about a large portion of political philosophy and so it's impossible to grow up in this country without knowing what the left believes through the media through newspapers through movies, but I do agree that the left often fails to understand and the right, and this is why we perennially have these issues. On the left, where
my god we're how you know how could they have voted from? I don't know anybody who voted that way. What were they thinking, and so political surprises tend to be, where the leftist surprise there there and as happened in Briggs there, I should get a harder time understand, conservatism than vice versa. I personally think that every Highschool, Civics Clare not that they teach them much anymore, but high school civics class should include the best of progressive thinking, the best of conservative thinking, possibly libertarian too. We shouldn't we shouldn't encounter.
Political diversity through the lens of the worst social media guarantees. If you're on one side, you are forced FED constant stories of the outrageous by the most outrageous horrible people in other side, and if that's your view of who they are, of course you don't trust him. Of course you don't want your legislators to compromise, so I think we need to understand we are coming apart in this country. We are facing the actual danger of the dissolution of the country over the next ten twenty years. I'm not saying it's likely to happen. I think is not likely to happen, but it is possible in ways that none of us thought were coming or possible five or ten years ago. So I think We need to take this seriously start educating, beginning in high school for more political tolerance, respect and mutual understand. So when it comes to the sort of pessimism that your expressing about the nature of the country with which I fully agree there, a bunch of people who do disagree, their folks, like Steven Pinker of his claiming that everything is getting better are. There are a lot of folks on the left have suggested that problems on campus, which we discussed at length in the calling of the American, might that these are
traded that basically campuses are just fine that there's tolerance for other points of you had you respond to to those particular criticisms one that everything is getting better and is just fine generally into that college campuses, our hunky dory, except for a few weird sort of Straying from the main request of us. Take the first one, so steep pinker, I think, is brilliant. I think he in the big picture. I pretty confident he's right that if we were just a check it hundred year intervals each hundred years, things would be much better than a hundred years before now, of course, at some point we might see the smoking Package of a global nuclear war. Abad odds are he's right in the long run, as he grandson as Robert Right granted in book Non zero years ago, you can have some big setbacks internally in the big picture that you see that the march of progress, but along the way, you can have some pretty bad stuff happening and I think where we are now a lot of some of our problem is caused by social media. Of course, these problems of
polarization we're getting worse before social media, but social media is really. Something's up all around the world, our will learn how to deal with it as we learn how to deal with junk food. It took decades before me could learn how to live with the constant presence of junk food. I heard that for the first time last year, the obesity rate in America actually went down it I need it. So maybe we ve learned how to coexist, and maybe that will happen with social media, but a lot about stuff can happen along the way in terms of what's going on. I can't this has been a really productive debate. As an excellent debate started by some political scientist in Canada, Jeffrey Sachs, who pointed out that, if you look at it the fact of anything younger people are more tolerance, and so that pushed me in Greg it's not changing, in fact, if anything, younger people are more tolerant, and so that pushed me in and others to refine our claims and that's the weights post work and what we, what we, as we dug into the data, is yes, this National survey Data shows no drop, but that's because its focused on millennials and this book, our book, the carbon
American might is not about millennials millennials. We're fine on free speech is the generation after the millennium sits the kids boarding ninety ninety five and after they were raised very different. It will come back to that cause. That's a major topic talk about! So, if you just look at age urgency, and you grant the point that the sceptics made- that there are four thousand five hundred colleges in this country or institution, the period of some sort are all of them up in arms. Over conservative speakers know most of them are not most men. Don't have concerns that they don't. You know the commuter schools they don't bring in lecturers, they dont have riots. So if you look at national represent the data on most campuses, nothing is happening. If you go home to a family, if you have a job off campus you're not gonna, develop this, arcane morality, that will talk about the safety of morality. However, if you look, and especially in the North EAST and the West Coast. If you look at the elite schools there, as far as I can tell
but this new culture is present at almost all of the schools. It's not me engineering school, so much it's done, when the humanities sought varies even within the universities. My point is: there's a lot of diversity This is not. We should not have the moral panic where we say the new generation is lost, something's eaten their brains or colleges are up in flames. That's not true, but there is, new morality that is present in parts of most maybe all elite schools on the coast, that, with a shout downs and what little violence there's been. That's what takes place. So we have to refine the story. Figurate what's happening, and I think figure out how to how to reverse this cultural shift, because if it leads to a culture, is really bad for the students themselves in the mental health. And
really bad for a culture of free inquiry to how indicative are those outlier schools statistically of a broader trend across young folks, that's yeah, that's complicated to answer in terms of a broad trans across young folks, the one the most important one, the one that I think guarantees that we will be attending to this for many years to come. We cannot sweep under the rug is that rates of anxiety and depression are rising quickly for kids born after ninety ninety five: it's rising cross social classes across race. It's not so much across genders, or rather I should say if things are getting worse for boys substantially, but for girls is several times were several times faster. The increase and with varying put understand, because there's debate around this some people say: oh, you know the kids. They liked to say their depressed,
their comfortable with this language. There was an up. There is a lot better than your times last couple weeks ago, a by of psychiatry, saying: oh, you know it's not real. It's just changing diagnostic categories. No, because if you look their studies, we set them in the book. If you look at hospital admission data, this is the number of kids admitted because they cut their body with something sharp and had to be admitted to hospital. It shows exactly the same pattern as it does for depression anxiety. That is its way up. It's up, even for the eleventh a thirteen year old and its especially for girls, and then you look at the suicide data. This is CDC data
federal data. Saying thing the boys to us. I refer teenage boys from the first decade of the twenty cent of twenty four century to the last couple years, it begins grown up around two thousand and two thousand eleven. It's up twenty five percent: twenty five percent, more dead boy, his by their own hand, over the last ten ten or so years for girls, the increases seventy percent, seven zero. So this is not just some isolated thing. On a few college campuses, we have a mental health crisis across social classes across all the different divides. Ah merely college campuses. This is contributing to a culture of protective measures. We are vulnerable or these even if I'm not valid, but she's vulnerable he's vulnerable. I am standing up for them. We can't have been, Shapiro talk here, for example, and this is where the micro aggression, Culture comes in the idea of speeches. Violence which was chanted at maple syrup is at Berkeley, which is it, which is an insane concept just on the face of especially at Berkeley. Here, it's it's. It's pretty wild over there.
What was really wild about that one is dead. The radical shift had spoken of the previous year with no violence whatsoever. That extra required five hundred police officers for protection for some other reason. But what exactly didn't does this trend hold true across parenting? Styles, across cultures, or is it or is it just a sub section that really talking about. So this is all so knew that I I can't give you a solid and we don't have data on this. What we we do, research and the book we did spend some time researching social class differences, because we know there is a huge amount of research on social class differences and parenting, and we read to really good books. A net loro has a book called unequal childhoods and Robert Putnam, I'm has a book called our kids and they both come to the same conclusion, which is that differences by race in parenting are actually
fairly small. Once you control for class, so upper middle class, black parents are more similar to upper middle class white pants than they are to working class of either sex and so working class parents do give their kids less supervision, which is good part of the problem is. In the nineties we took away most have kids unsupervised. Time by the Eightys and Ninetys. We stop letting kids out to play without supervision filled with it. We ve gotta be abducted or something like that so the working classes, not as over and working class kids have a lot of other problems. They face lot more trauma, alot more threat like real trolley physical trauma relational trauma, but in this country, right now at elite schools, there was some research came out last year at many of our top schools. There are more kids were children of the top one percent income, then the bottom sixty
set. So early schools are populated overwhelmingly by the top five percent of the income distribution. That's part of it. Rich kids have a lot more time to do about politics, working class kids Let us pay. There lived a pediatrician, they have a lot of other obligations so that the culture of safety and seems to be especially intense in upper middle class upper class elite. Coastal communities, and yet, when it comes to the identity politics than cropped up so recently in you sort of classified a subset of emotional tribal, driven politics, whereas the identity politics issue coming from doesn't have deep, brutes or shallow roads and is really just a new form of the kind of tribalism you ve been talking about, so so here too that- and let me make a point here, which I hope will be helpful to your audience in this country we're in the middle of a about of a long running culture war in which terms become that that they get tagged.
And they get used either as as it attacks or defences and identity, politics and social justice or two of those terms and are know. I work on a college campuses, Greg work on college campuses, we really want to solve the problem. We don't want to score points. We don't want to bash people. We really want to solve the problem. My view from right in the righteous mind is that whenever you haven't a political movement, there is always something that is that the right about there's always something that is good or true about it, and so what we did with identity politics etiquette. I came in very suspicious. I've been thinking. You know this is probably a bad thing because we read about it. We realized. Ok, you know what you have to have identity. Politics If, if people can organise because their wine growers in California, they can form a group to address
for the rights of wine growers in california- and you know in chess player is, can you can have in politics should be responsive to every possible interest group? Why can't gay people or l GB teach you white? Why can't african american? Of course every group can organise. So you can't say identity. Politics is bad. What you need to do is say: ok in the end, the current american context. How are you pursuing the aims of your group, and this, I think, is it a distinction that I find just clarify things right away. You can either pursue it using a common humanity approach, which is exactly what Martin Luther king. Polly Murray, a lot of the early civil rights activist did a common humanity. You start by saying: listen, my brothers sisters or you. You use the soaring american language as he didn't. I have a dream speech. You you first establish we, we Americans, we human beings, they used a lot of religious language, a Christian.
Language, but it will have the judeo christian language. You start that way, and now right away you're, already half way down the road to success, has now you're talking to people as members of a common group, and you can say some of our brothers and sisters are being denied access to dignity, to jobs so that work, even if, of course, there is resistance at the time it could, rules on a better angels. It establishes a connection and in the long and it works that we think is great. What's new or least, what's it newly intense on college campuses last just a few years is what we call the common enemy form of identity. Politics is based on the idea The bedouin proverb me against my brother me and my brother against our cousin me my brother and cousin against the stranger, and, if you you need everybody on campus against the enemy and the enemy is on campus too, because the enemy is straight white males, so what's new is the idea,
of intersection reality which, as we say in the book, interception, is not a bad idea. The idea that identities interact but being a black woman is not just the sum of the two, but there are special special obstacles. The black women face. That's a fine idea, that's right and true, but the way that it gets. Within a camp is to train students to see? Look around? Oh, you know up female white and to see ok. Female is oppressed. Mail is oppressor. White is oppressor black his oppressed to see people in binary dimensions tooth to two to imagine
trying to create a diverse environment on a college campuses you're trying to create diversity and, at the same time, you're telling people to judge others. This simple, binary, bipolar, dimension, good bad, good, bad, take moral judgments of people so intersects. Now the as its practised on many campuses amounts to try to unite a coalition of victim groups against the evil. Straightway males- and this is a recipe for, in addition to miss, diagnosing the nature of not just american society, but especially college campuses, a train students to its train students to beat man a key and trains them to approach life. Relationships through the lens of good and evil. We ve got to turn that down. If we want a successful, diverse society, isn't a deeper critique of identity politics, even the Gnat, because you're taking identity politics, it sort of its most favourable level to say people feel and identity with, for example, I feel identity with other Jews, but did to suggest
that all Jews, necessarily in the same boat, which a sort of the basis of identity politics for you to group yourself with a group of people is too imply a common enemy of some sort. That so should choose fighting harder against HIV. Pakistan, even your saying, in other words, let's not, our as blacks or Jews or gaze. Let's, let's keep our selves group of individuals who are Agree on these common principles of habits, society ought to be governed and how we are to be left alone. Yes, I certainly agree with you on that that, to what extent should we encourage people to see themselves as members by density groups or should incursion I think that black people are a certain way. Jews are a certain way. I think one of the great triumphs in the last few centuries has been true to create a world that was suspect that there for Jews, you know Jews were literally kept in ghettos and it was till enlightenment ideas? Finally spread the Jews are allowed to make lives for themselves. The liberal tradition is ultimately about long room for people to make the lives that they want. They can choose to identify with it. We are not a really encourage
sign- is that over the last few years a lot of people were not straightway. Males have been had been too told you need to identify this way in and there there's? No don't. How dare you tell me? How dare you tell me how I should feel and at first it was maybe hard for them to say that, but in the last year, a lot or saying it, and so that all these great books and our friends Fukuyama has a new book just came out about identity. Indignity. Anthony appeal has been writing beautifully about this. Amy immature political tribes, so we're fine. Hiding and there's a lot more. So I think this is very encouraging. America is a diverse country up there, a lot of intellectuals in every different possible density category A lot of them are rejecting this binary, your inner out kind of identity, a politically doesn't- has turned toward libertarianism just naturally, because- What we are really talking about on a political level is, we all have an agreement about the base,
the things that we should all do together and then everybody should basically be left alone to identify how they are they please. How does this play our political? in terms of fair and taken to straight party politics. So You know, as I hear you talk, what I'm thinking is: that's really the definition of life well and what I mean is the word liberal its origins? Are you believe in liberty. Its origins are originally it like that. Liberal arts are the skills needed to be a free person in an open society, and so that when we talk about liberal art schools, whatever the liberal tradition, that's what it means, and so that's that, In that sense, I am a liberal. I stopped using the word, as the left began, to how to split between what I like to think was theirs, the liberal left and then there's the illiberal left, most professors. In my opinion, our liberal laughed. They are uncomfortable with many forms of identity politics, but it's the illiberal laughed that has it has had the loudest voice. It's often dangerous
says, as you found as many people about, is dangerous to stand up against some dangerous than I shouldn't. I hear I shouldn't. I wouldn't you you'll get a lot of blow back in a lotta hatred eyes when I should say at times dangerous I've. Actually, from time to time that horrible, professor, you think that's occasionally dangerous occasioned by you're right. I mean I said many times that the best has begun. Dozens of camp says it the only a couple a year that are a serious problem by it. Yes, let's go just a bit. This is what this is one of things we most need in this polarize time. Just just that little bit a new ones that you just added that goes so far. If we can. Make your critique that's listeners everywhere. This way to acknowledge anything about the other side, and then you can make your critique friends. That's listeners everywhere. This is the way to be more effective. If you don't believe me, we Carnegie had a wind friends and influence people. This is the number one technique. So, but your question was is, does that mean we should be libertarian? And I guess I would say
It will also mean that we should be liberal in the traditional sense. Unfortunately, the libertarians are sort of left as the guardians of of the of the liberal tradition. So what what? What do you think has been the response to all of your research, which has been a lot from later that too right and a lot of other things there, and said sociology departments round the country. How people react in the academy to you as we say, cases ranging from Evergreen Stay college Northwestern were said to Yale with Christophersen, people are legitimately run out of jobs and income which hunting in the book. What's it would in reaction to your work can be got an inhaler blob. I know I have not nothing. Bad has happened to me in other there. In it. I occasionally get horribly nasty tweets and I got an email the other day, which was from an unknown I'm server, and it was just a string of absurdity which I can't even say camera other buildings area. There are other things about from strangers, nothing bad, as happened to me, and I think this is actually very important to point out so when I started critiquing the laughed from the left,
There were some people suspicious of me, but a lot of people realised in the left. We do have problems, we do need this critique and because I would do it sort of a gentle way and because I clearly was not on the right, so I think I moved up through the edge of what was possible, nothing that ever happened to me. Then, when I stepped out my started, saying I'm not on the left anymore, I'm just on nothing, I not on a teen again, I thought you'd be
blow back and some people were suspicious and people didn't like me, but nothing that happened to me and then, when Gregg and erode our Atlantic article critiquing this new culture on campus, and it is critical that of a certain kind of identity politics. You know my wife said John: are we going to have to like hide our address like our people? Gonna? Stop us nothing that happen to us, because by two thousand fifteen people, all over the place where beginning real something weird is happening were puzzled and if you come out with an explanation of like here's, what we think is happening, people really curious, and now, with this book again, I was actually kind of afraid. Like you know, what's going to happen to me, I have ten year I've not lose my job. What can happen to be socially and the recession has been overwhelmingly positive because again people real.
Lies? Something is messed up. The mental health crisis is real something's going on so yeah it's, and this is, I guess, my advice to people is. If you speak up in this polarize climate, we were a lot of us are afraid to speak up, but if you can do it in a respectful way, with just a little bit a nuance, the blow back is often much the new than you would expect. So you teased much earlier in the show they have a lot of critics of the Republican Party, because I am, of course, in the conservative damage we spend most of this programme. Critiquing left us on camp as in some of the rising leftist ideas of identity, politics intersection, allergy micro aggressions in such. So what your main critics of the right. How could the right be doing a better job and what exactly is the right doing deeply regret now, so what
really attracted me to conservatism was reading the philosophy, so in one of my gateway, drugs was Thomas soul. I feel I read conflict divisions and boy that book when I signed it to my classes at uv. You know that really open people's eyes and he talks about our huge due to constrain view of human nature, which is where you think p. If you take off the constraints, they gonna do selfish, greedy, sexual aggressive things and we need religion, family law. Versus the unconstrained vision which goes back to Rousseau or it's it's it's the dominance on. Imagine just down? All the walls remove religion and country Everything'Ll be great you're, not you! When I look at it that way. As a social scientist, I have to say the conservative right about human hatred. That is the correct view of human nature, and that goes back to the early part of our conversation, about how we need structures, we need constraints in order to flourish. So I'm very attracted to a lot of conservative philosophy. And it goes all the way up from Burke. Although through soul,
Higher can and others were to conserve the libertarian. So I'm attract a lot of the philosophy and of course I disliked Ronald Reagan, agenda and Republican Party back then, when I was a partisan democrat, but I can see the wisdom of of fermenting dynamism of I can see the wisdom of lot of what the Republican Party was doing, that and George H W Bush was a very, very decent, but I look at the Republican Party swell since New Gingrich, I think, converted to a much more confrontational party, which again I can't criticise that the Democrats did treat Republicans well when they were majority, but I think you can judge and Fox NEWS created an environment in which, in which the Republicans were more incentives to sort of go rogue to develop in India to two based on feedback and
and opportunities to be more radical and I think some of the policies that they have implemented, the worst critique of the Republican Party or about common critique, is all they seem to really care about his lowering taxes on the rich that seem to be the top priority and that that's been true for awhile and so a party that is just focused on its relationship with its donor class and then its ability to do things you I got what Duncan we started on Trump, but the things that Trump is doing to destroy our alliances, to disrespect our allies, while sucking up to dictators and the fact that the Republican Party has not repudiated him. So I think that Trump clearly is now a conservative. He is appealing much more to authoritarian tendencies. Then there's, but I can't see true, I can see any lineage from Edmund Burke to Donald Trump
there is. There is no way to get from here to there. So the fact that the Republican Party has lost its conservative soul, I think, as falling Donald Trump, is, I think, a mark of damnation that it will wear for many decades. We quit research in the book on how, however, the play The world looks between the ages of fourteen and twenty four sticks, and so I think the Republican Party is signing against its death warrant, but I think it's going to lose all a declaration of the young people now they will be more democratic for the next fifty years I mean to agree with that assessment, which is one of my great fears about President Trump before he was President Trump, was that the listed several fears about president from that I had my chief one, which I think is still on the table, is the Toxify nation of conservatism. Thanks to all of this with that said, is there anyway to put the political genie back in the bar because it seems, like political leaders of both sides have a real interest in rubbing up the culture worse, and I think that when it comes to your republican legislative power,
it has less to do with the stuff they like to do and the stuff that they can actually do without well back, so tax cuts are popular because who exactly is gonna want about them every one at least gotta? Try grew with that. But the point is that there is the stuff that people can get done in common and the deficit would Republicans were the watchdogs of aid. For the last twenty years they ve been the bag. I totally agree with that, but the point is that there is the stuff that people can get done in Congress. Then there's the stuff that people can jabber about in Congress and by looking toward Politicians are moral leaders. I looking at our politicians are philosophical leaders. What we ve actually done is create the sort of room for this divide between practical politics and the stuff that we think that they ought to be saying. Philosophically, when the politicians are seen as as thoughtless, it has brought about motions, thought leader for the left, and then he implements a bunch of policies that are completely partisan of emu, no bipartisan legislation throughout any of his tenure? Yet he is seen by the left, as some sort of great by partisan unified depends
response. I think, if I wouldn't put somebody up there, who doesn't pretend to be, my party's includes go out there and he'll do whatever he wants. Is there any way to put stringy back in the Bible, because there is money made in boats to be gained in sorting tribalism that both of us are for railing against year, but first I have to defend Obama. He came out. So if you go back to the first election, the economic crisis threatened us with ruin. Nobody knew was gonna happen. It was a really scary time. Ten years ago and Obama did the right thing, which is to say we're, gonna do this by partisan. This is not a partisan thing. We're gonna do this by partisan and we have to do this together and he and and going back to two thousand for speech. I believe that Obama really does he does actually understand. Conservatives better than most he lived in Indonesia has travelled a lot. I think Obama I like him philosophically, and he Kate started the right way. The Republicans, however,
There was a particular retreat. They had early in a bomb. Is that the first couple months of his term, someone Maryland may I can ever was, and they did a calculation and they said, should we work with them and try to make him successful, which we try to make them fail, which will work better for us and they correctly calculated that the second course was best for them, and that was a bomb as fault because Obama, was very bad. Negotiating Obama should have said if I get. This is my my political analysis, which is not worth much. Obama should have said that channel we're gonna. Do this by partisan. You have three months: join me on it. If you don't join me on it, I'm gonna break your knees blame it on you and when I do it my way, but because Obama didn't they hardball, and he did it internationally to it, because he didn't know. How to negotiate and have a tough side, the Republicans correctly calculated that they could role, but they could, they could make him feel and worked. They came sweeping the power two years later, so I can't fault- Obama Obama didn't come in trying to be.
Also on the health insurance yeah. It was. He got no republican vote he tried and tried and try to take a republican idea from it wrongly for how to do health reform. So I'm a tried- and it was this hyper partisan republican party that I think drove him ultimately to have to just do it in a partner. Obviously I disagree that political now has almost in full, but I do think that election, twenty twelve was basically, in my view, sort of the breaking of the country, because by election twenty twelve there is a belief on Right did. Mitt Romney was a decent guy. Who was pretty much. Written a lot of his I'll. Just the only important thing you ever provided about your estate and then he was torn apart savaged as a bad guy. In exactly the same way, the left savages Donald Trump, except that Mitt Romney, is not Donald Trump, and so we have now been walked into this mutual rock M soften robots com. Where it's a lot easier to punch the other guy than to have a conversation with them. So how do we get there? and all this because obviously propose a lot of solutions and handling of the american mighty talk about solutions. What how do we get beyond all of this, even based on the original premises of righteous mine, which is that we are more
sleep intuition for mostly international herald? The wizard brain is extraordinarily wrong with us. How do we get past that an extra eyes reason nor does it and exists, where wit, what facilities we use beyond. It is very difficult to just decide to change the forces. The historical trends that got us into this rising polarization are complicated there, a lot of them there's no one thing: we can turn around and change. I think the most basic thing we need to do is we need to have some, age reforms of our political institutions to encourage more moderation, compromise and cooperation in Congress and at other levels of government. What I'm hoping would happen. This is an idea from from a normal Bernstein who wrote the book is even worse than the looks of political scientist is at some point. The next president, somebody will say: ok, we're in big trouble here, everybody hates Congress Congress doesn't want to be hated. Let's have, let's have: let's have a panel reckon
and a sweeping ceta changes to make lit the legislative process more effective to start to tick. We can't be shutting out the the the might the minor party entirely. We can't be having a while for the filibusters going away for lotteries, and so we have to reform. Should we Congress works the way elections are run, the they closed party primary really incentivize is extremists run because as he when the nomination, so some states are experimenting with open primaries or with top to primary says you have here in California, so they waited a whole package of political reforms of Fort for Congress, the issue of the media and social media reforms. There are much harder there. I don't really know their tweaks that Facebook and Twitter can do the algorithms Youtube videos, but all I can think of his tweaks, it's very hard to change to change the media environment. Education we already talked about. We need to be educating kids for democracy were not doing that,
The suggestions we make in the book is that, however bad things are the young generation, which has had very little time to work out problems. They ve been given very little freedom independence when the current generation age energy, when they reach their the Asia political power. Things make it a lot worse because they haven't worked out the skills of compromise dispute resolution on their own. So I think, we're in big trouble and we're gonna have to take a comprehensive look at how we can children, how we educate them in high school in college. Our political institutions work. I've done what I can. Graham I've done, what we can in our book. This is gonna, take a collaboration among political scientists and historians to really focus as we're focusing on other threats, the country until really focus on the threats to our democracy. Without claiming one side or the other saying the system is messed up? If we want to be a light to the world? If we think that democracy and liberty or import virtues, we need to get our own house in order, and then this is, I think where
You are a deeper really deep solution is going to require a rebuilding of social fabric that has almost nothing to do with politics, and when we watch the social fabric torn apart on everything from sneakers too to football, it seems very difficult to put all of that back together. I think the eaten it seems. To me that by partisan legislation is not gonna make everybody feel better about. Everything seems like that what at whatever legislative remedies are sought to various problems? Just because you got a democratic republican shaking hands with doesn't heal the problem. What we have here is that neighbour, I don't trust each other neighbours, don't see each other in any social setting neighbours. That is the only thing we having common is government. We have nothing in common, that's, so If, so, how do we rebuild? But what was not spent some time
Individual parenting Europeans obviously have a twelve year old, an eight year old, I'm apparent with two kids under five. What's the best way to educate your kids to be part of that social fabric, to rebuild democracy? From the ground up and in every generation, so we have a whole chapter on play and why play is so important for the development of any human being and why play basically lets you practice the skills of democracy when Alexis Tocqueville travelled in American eighteen, thirty one he was so impressed. He said you know in in France if some great thing needs to be done, it's going to be done by them. The monarch and in England is gonna be done by the aristocrats, but America if they need to build a bridge or start a hospital, they got a bunch of people together. They form an association. Americans have a genius for the ART of association. He said and wish we cite. Research in the book on how play is the practice for the ART of association
up soccer game. Three could sit around which we do this half in utter. No, what do you want to do and then they figured out jointly, so so what I'm? With with my kids, it's hard, because all the parents are overprotective, including ass when we try to send our kids out? Let me sent about to go. Do an errand go across the street. My son was eight, but daddy. Everybody looks at me funny cause there. No other kids out there so to social coordination problem Every viewer every listener go to. Let grow dot org. It's an organization started by Lenore Skin Easy who wrote the book free range, the I'm on the kids I urge every every viewer every listener go to. Let grow dot org! It's an organization started by Lenore, Scan easy who wrote the book free range, kids, I'm on the board and has all the suggestions for how you can make your neighborhood and your element the school and all your schools? Are you can make them better able to support free range, child rearing, kids,
having a few hours a day in which does not an adult watching them, how you can get administers to back off and give them more room, So we have a lot of ideas there for how you can address the problems from childhood up through a Highschool. Next, we have to look at all of our institutions, all the places that we congregate and so as to correct or religious congregations, workplaces. Universities, beginning a year or two ago I started getting calls or hearing from you, CEO, saying, we're being torn apart of battles over bath. Battles over this, a lot of identity, politics issues which have to be solved, but that, if you do the the common way, it's it's impossible to solve so leaders of almost any organization or have are facing problems. My rabbi, oh, I got a central synagogues in Manhattan. My rabbi, it would a rabbi speaks. It says anything that Israel,
Oh my god, like you, know a third, the congregations, gonna revolt. Whichever way you go so leadership now is really really hard. My team, we developed a wonderful program called open mind. So I urge irish viewers go to open mind platform Dot org we ve created a programme, runs on any up, it's free and any anybody pepper, it's free in which it walks. He threw some basic moral psychology, in a sense, a kind of walks through the righteous mine and some other social psychology about why viewpoint. Diversity is good, for you makes you smarter. It may be better able to deal with people white so hard to do that. How do you talk to people? How do you talk to people who differ and our belief our hope- and we have some evidence- is that if any group takes this training annoying to expand our enough? If any group does this training whenever,
whenever problems come up, they'll be be better, skills will have a common vocabulary will be able to resolve it. So I think we need to see this as a national crisis, rising polarization which is making Oliver institutions less functional. My fear is that if the Nike gave it pays off for Nike more companies will do that will have red and blue restaurants, red and blue dentists. Will everything will be politics all the time I got what a nightmare that was so we ought to take responsibility for this and it starts with us as individuals and then steps right away from us as individuals into every organisation institution that were part of we can all be part of the solution at that more local level? I do have one final question in that final question will be what is best cases: for the country in twenty years, what's worst case scenario for the country in twenty years. But if you want to hear the answer from Jonathan you have to be a daily wire subscriber to subscribe to daily wired. I come quick subscribe. You near the end of our conversation there
then hide. Thank you. So much for stopping by injecting a note of reason into our insane political discourse really is a pleasure to have men. Why do it from us really I don't think so much revenue eventually Rochelle Sunday Special was produced by Jonathan Hank executive producer, Jeremy born associate producers, math is Lover and Austin. Stevens edited by Alex Single Audio is missed by micro, meta there and make up is by just while their entitled graphics by Cynthia and Gould the bench appear or show Sunday. Special is a daily wire forward. Publishing production copyright for publishing twenty eating.
Transcript generated on 2020-02-10.