« The Ben Shapiro Show

Sunday Special Ep 41: Arthur Brooks

2019-03-10 | 🔗

Arthur Brooks, president of the American Enterprise Institute and best selling author of "Love Your Enemies," joins Ben to discuss the dignity gap, how to handle criticism, the welfare state, and much more! Date: 03-09-2019

This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
I asked another, the Dalai Lama, and I said what do I do when I feel contempt for another person he said, show warm heartedness and I thought you got anything else. welcome to the bench here I'll show Sunday. Special we are eager to welcome to the program Arthur Brooks. Is the author of a new book love your enemies It's also the head of the American Enterprise Institute, will get to his new book and all sorts of life. Changing topics in just a second but first Life insurance can feel like assembling the world's worst jigsaw puzzle. It's confusing it takes forever and one. Finally done it, doesn't even look very cool. If you have a mortgage kids, Anyone who depends on your income is a puzzle. You need to solve policy genius can help you do it. Genius is the easy way to get life insurance. In just two minutes, you can compare, quotes from top insurers and find the best policy for you
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It's called love your enemies and it says how decent people can save America from the culture of content, and I have to get the elephant in the room out of the way immediately, which is that people are going to be asking, how is it that bench Shapiro of Ben Shapiro destroys blank. Fair could possibly be interviewing you in taking seriously the question of loving your enemies, people who disagree with you, and so I want to go through of what you mean by loving your enemies and also what is best way to do that in a really fraud culture. So, let's start with with the basics, how did you come up with this idea that the biggest problem we have in the culture is not loving our enemies. Well, as I'm looking. Round hill and look with that we've been going through the same trials, the same tribulations. Those of us were on the political right. We've seen a lot of bad things happen. We seen just that this love, though the way the whole discourse has been spoiled and not, just by people on the other side by people on our own site as well, and I thought to myself: what's the big problem and people ok. Well, we need more civility or we need more tolerance. That's garbage! We don't!
More civility mean if I said, hey Ben. My wife asked her and I were civil to each other. You'd be like. Oh man did you need some count? for you know my employees, american presence to do there. They tolerate me say bad scene that these are not high enough standards. Basically, I started thinking was of what we need well, when you go back to the sacred texts, but the the pillars of of philosophy in the west. What you find is that there's a subversive teach king, which is basically to love your enemies. This comes from the you know, the the the Gospel Saint Matthew, the fifth chapter, the forty fourth verse, where Jesus tells his followers to love their enemies. Why? What Martin Luther king actually sorted? it out for the modern ear. When you love your enemies, you find out they weren't your enemies. After all, you know people will say that.
You know when when they look at the internet, they say you know, Ben Shapiro destroys. One of things I happen to know is you're not using that language and when I watch you up on stage you're tough you're going hammer and tongs after the who disagree with you, but by and large I think, you're engaging with ideas and not treating the people with contempt, and I admire that. Could you be better? Could I be better for sure, but in point of fact, I think we're going in the same direction. I think we're trying to make progress in the same way. So, let's talk about what it means to its for some to be our enemy. So with the you make the point in the book there are people who, obviously our enemies ramen. There obviously is on a fascist, their their numbers. The Taliban are those people that we should should love. I mean how how do we deal with other gradations? In other words, to the enemies that we ought to love are the domestic political enemies, meaning no President Trump's enemy of the people present Democrats, personal weekends. Are there's like a legitimate group of people that it's ok, that it's okay? There are grand Asia
of course, and in the main point that I'm making here when I'm talking about a decent people, can save America from the culture of content, I'm largely talking for an american audience, for we have started to TED Ted Ted to suffer from thought something that political science scientists call motive, attribution asymmetry in big fancy terms so that you can academics like making a ten year, but basically what it means is that they went when you feel that you're motivated your ideology about love, but the other side is more motivated by hatred. Now this is something that you typically see in the palestinian israeli conflict, but what political scientists are finding for. The very first time is the Democrats and Republicans, conservatives and liberals are displaying this same level of motive, that traditions, attribution asymmetry as the Israelis and the Palestinians, in other words, we're treating each other internally in american politics as the other as the enemy, and this is
not anger. Anger is fine, angers, literally not correlated with separation and divorce among married couples. The problem is contempt, the conviction of the utter worthlessness of the other person, that's what we see, and so I'm talking to a large the american audience this is obviously has gradations, were talk about warfare and people overseas that want to kill us. But I'm telling you what I'm looking at at at the somebody in the political left in the United States. I can disagree, but that person should not be treated with contempt, not by me not by you not by anybody watching us and if We can get past that that is the source of our strength and I'll meet. When I read the book, I I mostly see my own shortcomings in anything that I can do better and you tell the story in the book of the first time that you sort of experience the the use of love in to overcome what you felt was somebody who is attacking you. Somebody who
a long email they're going after one of the previous book and how your spot- and I wonder if my my one talent so yeah. So I mean this- is this: this happened a long time ago, an ad that was, I was actually I I recall this because I asked another. The Dalai Lama was making this documentary film and- and I said what do I do when I feel contempt for another person, he said, show warm heartedness and I thought you anything else does it seem sort of weak to me? But then I remember him. A Dalai Lama is a tough, a tough person he he was exiled as a teenager from his homeland in Tibet, just rolled over by the communist Chinese and- and he spent every day for the last six decades starting each morning, praying for the communist chinese leaders that the live, good and happy lives, that's toughness, and it is- and I said what do I do that he said remember a time when you accidentally do did it. So I thought back to two thousand six old Professor Syracuse University in those days and and I'd just written a book and read a lot of books and we never read them because they were very boring and I was a you know. I wasn't living a happy professorial existence. I wrote this.
One book that hit the news cycle in just the right way, I think President Bush read it, and- and- and I got into the news- and I was on the news every day- it was weird happened: academic, sometimes they're, selling hundred copies a day. My life changed kind of permanently as a matter of fact, and the weirdest as I started to get emails from people, I've never met. So I get an email from a guy I mean hundreds, then, when when you a book, you know how this feels when you're a of a book that selling people feel like they know you and if they don't like your book, they don't like you, so I started getting emails from people. I love book. I wanna tell you about my grandma and all that kind of stuff. My email is very easy to get, and I heard from people who didn't like it as well. Ok, two weeks after that comes out and get an email from a guy in Texas, your professor. You are a right wing fraud bad way to starting now, but I keep reading and I notice this email is like two three one thousand words long. No more five thousand was going to take me twenty minutes to read this email as I'm reading it. You know, and I'm know I'm game and he's insulting everything like did. You know that I think that the
the columns are in three table. Three point: one reversed you idiot and stuff like this as a reading to the email, this thing is going through my head He read my book is filled with gratitude. Why? Because I had taken me two years to write it and he'd read every word, so I decided no I'm going to lunch right now, my heart, I got nothing to lose. I'm never going to see him, so I wrote him back here so and so took me two years to write that book. I put my whole heart into it and you read every word, I'm so grateful to you. Thank you send and then I go back to work. Fifteen minutes later his response, pops back up, Bing open up the email, dear Professor, Brooks next time, you're in Texas. If you want some dinner, give me a call. That's power, wait turns out. Was that it it it looked. It took me a long time to remember that, because I was stimulated that memory by his holiness the Dalai Lama, but once I did I know forgot to remember the feeling of that's just a power bit of warmth and in his point is when somebody tree
you with contempt and bend man you're going to be treated with contempt like next time you go out in public because, like I've seen it and you're super good at responding to ideas, but you can be treated with contempt, are going to get a choice. I could answer with contempt or I can answer with No, no, the answer would love does not mean to agree with the person. We have a responsibility to say what we think. Why, because ideas have consequences and misguided ideas have deleterious consequences for society, but when answer. Somebody with whom you disagree with enough respect. To show them the disagreement and to do it with love. You will change at least one heart and that bends heart and that's Arthur's heart and maybe maybe the other person start as well. So what do you do when somebody comes at you and it's not just a contemptuous argument about your ideas? What if somebody comes at you and the way People have tended to do this lately is to call you legitimately morally deficient. So you give the example of your somebody who is pro gun rights and the implication is put forward after sandy hook.
The reason that you are pro gun rights, because you don't care enough about dead children or the reason you believe what you believe on welfare policy is because you're a vicious racist. How should you sponsor that. How is it possible to be warm hard, and, I all admit, my typical strategy when someone calls me a racist, is to say well you're acting like a jackass, I have no evidence that I'm a racist. Obviously you are now acting like a 'cause attacking people without evidence makes you such, but that's pretty hostile way to do it, but it feels like the only way, sometimes to shake people out of the super of slim. Bring people with those sorts of names, and I also am worried that, if I say listen, let me explain you all. Reasons why I'm not a racist I've already lost the argument. I can't grant credibility to even the statement because the statement is so off base. What's the best way to handle something. So yeah when somebody says you're a racist or or
to me you're a racist, it's like it's! When did you stop beating your wife? I mean it's just it's. It is an unanswerable question, because the premise is entirely wrong. Okay, not the first thing to remember is that in point of fact, the person is behaving like a jackass, your and and you're literally within your rights to say so, but that misses a core opportunity. You take the person on very very vigorously, but in terms that basically says I understand the position that you're coming from, which is that you have a huge concern about racism in our society, and I share that concern with you. Don't even take on the charge that Ben Shapiro's race that's idiotic and everybody knows it, but the opportunities. This look when you're in a college
campus or you're in the median in the mainstream media and people are watching there, a ton of people out there that are not hostile there. Also, not true believers of Ben Shapiro. You got a ton of true believers, but a lot of people are not there persuade Rible, they're, open, they're, sceptical, but they're open. How are those people going to be persuaded there going to be persuaded by the force? Not just of the force of your arguments, but the way that you make those arguments, the mercy that emanates from your heart, the love that you actually show the respect that you show for other Americans. Look. Those people were attacking you, they're, not all bad people. There really concerned about legitimate things. They just don't know how to express it in the right way and they've never gotten proper direction to treat another human being. With respect so you can turn around and say. Look, I don't like the way you just talk to me, but I do the concerns that are written on your heart. So I'm going to talk about those concerns 'cause, I think I've gotta
the way to address them that, maybe even you do, but at very least I want you to consider those things who's going to be watching that the persuade rible people in the audience were going to Ben Shapiro, no horns, man. I want to know more. So one of the things that you talk about in love, your enemies is the fact that are the amounts of content in our politics has been rising very, very rapidly of recent vintage. Do you think that that's a result of the polarization of politics or do you think the polarization in politics is a result of the contempt and I feel like it's a bit of a chicken or the egg question yeah? I think it's what it's? What economists would call endogenous situation, where one is actually causing the other where a vicious cycle and then again once again, is a big opportunity, because once you you you, you cut the cycle, it's no, no longer downwardly spiraling? It requires that people who are in the public eye I mean I have a very blessed to be in a position where I get to talk in public you even more, and you have millions of people who are watching this show and you can actually cut that cycle of contempt, and show other people more importantly, how to do it, because you know what you say: people they're going to fall
you, because you're a leader under the circumstances, so sure polarization is the content. Content leads to more polarization. This is actually how all relationships deteriorate. I have a friend. His name is John got many Teachers University Washington is the world's leading expert on merit for reconciliation. The guy's, a hero, he's brought thousands of people back together, would otherwise got divorced, and one of the things that one of many things you and I agree on- is it that the uh the society must be based on stable, happy families that are better have love for each other. So this guy him. He really is a a modern day hero. Then he notes that the that what what predicts divorce is not anger at all. We thank God, I'm married to expand your. Arguments told me the divorce or have thousands and thousands of with about twenty eight years. What would bring at least divorce is treating other people like you have contempt for that person. I rolling sarcasm contemptuous humor derisive jokes. These are the things that we
We predict divorce when John Gottman can counsel somebody for an hour council of a couple for an hour and no with more than ninety percent accuracy if they'll be divorced within three years by looking for those signs of contempt and those are the same things that destroy relationships at all, levels, friendships, collegial relationships- and in point of fact, that's what's happening in America today. That's the reason that people can talk to each other that one in six, Americans have literally stopped talking to a close friend or family member because of the election of twenty. Sixteen that's way worse than politics. It's a crisis of love, no one when it comes to this this problem of contents. One of that one questions I guess I have is that it's very tied, I think, to humor. So if you wanted to look at, you know the chief pretenders of contempt in american politics, I really would look for politicians for said. Look to somebody like John Stewart, because Jon Stewart spent years, basically showing
clip of somebody making a face at that person, and then that was the queue for the audience left now we all enjoy. That is there a way to separate out humor from contempt, or is it just? We need to stop treating politics as entertainment, more generally. Well, there's nothing wrong with humor. The problem is mockery and mocking. Another person is trying to hurt that person. That's trying to belittle that other person and it's it's for the temp. Yes, I give into the intonation regular, allow you to you know guilty you know, and it you know like I in in one of the things of stimulants book lover enemies, as as I I saw myself on tv behaving with contempt in treating somebody with mockery, using humor. I mean I've been telling jokes my whole life. I was like that. I was that the the wise cracking kid in the back of the class when I, when I was your I have I mean that that's the reason it took me does thirty graduate from college, so the story and and okay- and I saw myself doing- I thought- that's not right- that is that actually I'm not
living up to my own values. I mean these people or they just agree with me, but they're not evil and they're, certainly not stupid, and you know the key moment came from me Ben and I'm sure you've had this experience too. I was at this this political activist rally in twenty fourteen and a couple of years before the twenty sixteen election, and you know I do a ton of I'd like one hundred and seventy five speeches a year on the road, all the time being, the present a think tank is like not much thinking in tanks on the roads and on planes, and- and I was talking to this group of activists night and I said in my talk- you know what should remember. Look we agree. I said to this group: you know they were. They were very conservative. I say we agree on economic policy and foreign policy, but I want you to remember the people who are not here because they don't agree their political progressives and I want to remember the not stupid, not evil they're, just Americans who disagree with us on politics. The lady sure she said actually the stupid naval. It was actually kind funny, but I thought to myself:
it's not where I want to be 'cause. I can't make progress, I'm in the business of persuading people. So that we can get more dignity so that people can be lifted up their dignity, and so we can explore the limitless most of human potential. That's what America is supposed to be all about. That's what our culture is really that's. Why the the Shapiro's? What I suppose three generations ago were probably like bailing out of some God, forsaken shuttle, someplace and- and you know, come in some ways: we could build their lives. They were want some place where they had radically equal human dignity and and Brooks the Brooks is too by the way, we're moving West one step ahead of the law and now Look at you and me I mean we actually get to sit here talking about ideas in front of hundreds of thousands or millions of people. What a privilege we can,
waste it. We got to bring people in and show them the blessing. That really is this country. That's the point of your new book, which is such an important book, the blessing of what the w really can bring and how we can celebrate these ideas to lift other people up on a second, I wanna ask about the efficacy of contempt, because I want to ask if there's a market advantage to contempt it's a that just one second, but first hiring is challenging, but there's one place you can go, we're hiring is simple and fast and smart. It's a place were growing. Businesses connect to qualified candidates that place is ziprecruiter dot com, Slash Ben guest because I have a guest ziprecruiter, send your job to over one hundred of the web's leading job boards, but they don't stop there with their powerful matching technology. Zip recruiter, scans, thousands of resumes to find people with the right x. Yes and invites them to apply to your job as applications come in zip, recruiter, analyzes, each one and spot like the top candidates, so you're, never gonna miss a great match. Ziprecruiter is so effective that eighty percent of employers to post on Ziprecruiter get a quality candidate
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through use of contempt and then by leaving that out of your arsenal, you're, basically surrendering to the other side, and I think that swear, you're, seeing a lot of passion come from right on the right, particularly when you have folks are being hit with the intersectional identity, politics or group politics being called racist, sexist bigot homophobe and they just want to say listen. Socialism is dumb. Socialism is evil. Are there some ideas that are so bad, in other words, that they have earned contempt even in the current contemporary today? Do you think there are lots of ideas that have earned can to be sure, but there are no people in America who Vernon. So how do we distinguish that 'cause? I really want to take it on this, because I think that we live in a time where ideas are so, tide into our own identity and we've convinced ourselves really since the 60s that the personal is the political and then my politics army? So if you and I disagree,
on tax rates, and then I attack tax rate, your tax policy- and I think I said you know that I think it's foolish tax policy. I think it's falling apart everywhere. It's tried, then you take that as a personal affront. But now my contempt for your idea has been interpreted as contempt for you is there a way around that there is, and there is absolutely because the personal isn't the political ideas are people. I people have ideas and ideas can change society side a really affect people a lot, but but the most important thing is that we are autonomous individuals that we are people that we and generate ideas, and until we can separate out people from ideas we're going to continue in this really terrible cycle. So how do we do that? We buy modeling? That is an incredible source of power. Now it's much easier to go contemptuous on a particular person in to destroy a particular person. But let's remember it's ultimately itself
defeating proposition. If we're trying to bring more people into our way of thinking what it does, is it locks down our particular base and we have a president knighted states who is good at base, locking we have his entire opposition in the Democratic Party, all fifty seven thousand people who are running for president on the democratic ticket at this point all, but a couple are basically using the same rhetorical techniques as President Trump, but that's and ultimately self defeating Proposition because what you've got is warring tribes you're, never going to actually bring people into a meaty coalition of those who who who share certain values such that we can make progress until you can persuade other people want to take that takes leadership by guys, like you and me, people who actually have it at an audience of people out there who are listening. The way to the way that we communicate with other people who see us pass the on the opportunity to treat other people with contempt of vigorously assert that the correct MR incorrect as a particular ideas.
I'm not saying we have to agree on the contrary, agreement lease to mediocrity and stagnation. It's like it's a kind of a monopoly. You know countries for everybody agrees. They go no place, we believe in competition, in markets and in politics it's called democracy in sports and especially the competition of ideas. When something's wrong, you got to say it when something's danger Chris. You have to articulate that, but separating that out from the individual- and I was showing love tored, the individual, that's a true source of strength hard to do it's hard to do. I'm trying to do it. That's why I wrote the book, but when you can do that, when I can do that, people will follow and that's the beginning of a movement. It seems like a lot of that is really tie down to interpersonal contact, meaning that it's much easier to have conversations with people in person via phone, that is over social media social media. It seems like a machine for spinning up contempt, specially Twitter, where you've got two in eighty characters now to say what you've got to say, get it off your chest and remember: there is uh
Haitian recently, where I got into a little bit, not much at the bud again, because one of the guys running for president on the democratic side, one of fifty seven thousand and it started to go sideways and certain point. I said why don't you just come on this Sunday, special that we engage and suddenly it was diffused It was an actual invite. Do it again he's not reached out I've asked. We'll see if he does I'd I'd love to have mine. I mean really we're always looking for Democrats to come on, but they're afraid, specifically of of the kind of antipathy that they think they're gonna receive, or maybe they just don't want to be challenged, but and what we I'm happy to have folks on the democratic left on on the show for sure. But it was it was that feeling king of diffusing, that came from, I had a name. He had a name. You talk in the book about the culture of non social media and how counterproductive it is to the kind of anti contempt you're. Looking for, I was hoping. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that yeah for sure, so I'm on social media and social media? You have tons of people who are falling on social media and a real temptation when we're a social media in in you know we're we're dealing with one on one people. We have lots of friends. We have lots of people disagree with us. If I were to ask everybody watching us,
today how many of you love somebody with whom you disagree politically all hands to go up and that's cool. I mean I hope I mean practically. All the hands of the people are not let not listening or we're not getting out of the house. Enough and get on social media, we D. What's what political scientists or what what social scientists call d individuation or isn't he humanization we dehumanize ourselves by becoming anonymous and as such, we lower moral standards and we're here in in in LOS Angeles area. I live in Washington DC and one of the big problems that we have is people terrible to each other in traffic. I've got a way where I could solve that wherever ' he has to put their name on a bumper sticker on the back of the car and their house of worship. Well, I just got flipped off by you know, MIKE Smith, from our lady of sorrows. So you know so the problem that we have a social media is the ultimate traffic problem. We're people d individually themselves they dehumanize themselves, they lower their moral standards and they engage in behave, they don't like. Well, then they're they're, gearing
are people really are publicly putting forth there Actual identity, Ben Shapiro, Arthur Brooks, and so the tendency is for us to say well that jerk Not only is he wrong, he's rude, and so I'm going to come back at him, I'm going to come back at him hard, but in so doing what you've done is you've taken on a phantom you've taken on somebody who doesn't actually exist. So one of the things I recommend I mean for the self preservation of these social media companies are going to have to stop giving platforms to anonymous users, because little by little people are figuring out. The social media is no fun, is decrement their happiness good studies show that more hours and social media less happiness and by the way, that's also true for Ben Arthur, thank God for Sabbath yeah for sure for sure, in Friday, night and Saturday night, all the clothes off- maybe four days of Sabbath social media, some really yeah. So that's important to have these that conversation is my wife. How do I minimize the number of hours that I'm actually on twitter because there is definitely an inverse proportion between the amount of time on twitter and human happiness?
Oh for sure, absolutely feel your chest. Tightening and you know people what they don't understand is there are just some guy sitting on his sofa and he's called Bernie Bro twenty twenty or something he goes after Ben Shapiro. Well, you know, venture proves up flesh and blood hi ill and Arthur Brooks is got actual feelings and and what we we get used to it. So it's kind of okay. But in point of fact it's it's a mistake for us to end to engage at all mall with people who are anonymous because you're going after people that, in a very real way in a very human way, they don't exist You gotta love your enemies, by which I mean people who it turns out. We're trying to me is, but those are people and people who will not the vulture identities or give part anything anything other humanity, anything of their story. They're saying I'm actually not a human being for all you know it's a russian twitter bot and, and so not worth engaging. So we in your book, you talk about little and talk to look at here about the gradations in terms of you know who is worthy of
so the Taliban worthy of contempt. But you know in the United States. The idea is that we are well. We think that we may be enemies were actually not enemies were brothers in the in the wing and settling coney and formulation. I want to ask if that's really and the reason I ask- that is because it has certain people on both sides become more radical. I think right now the the left is moving in a radical direction faster than the right is. Donald Trump is actually in policy. Someone of moderate Republican on the left seems to be moving pretty dramatically. I in a in a far left and direction, including embrace of democratic socialism. You you talk about the sort of moral values that you still think unite: Americans, what do I think those moral values are and are you? Are you overstating the case? Do you think that we have more in common than we may actually have in common? I may be overstating the case but I want to err on that side. Why? Because one of the things that I've noticed is that leaders throughout history who are truly aspirational, they're not populist. Getting a populism is fundamentally not leaders.
It's follower ship, it's basically in in you. May this one hundred times like I stole this from venture, but there's a there's. A parade going down the street a populist is a guy who says, there's a prayer. I better get out front of that. They need a leader. Leadership is something that says: there's a better future. Can you see it was a guy who teaches at at at Harvard Business School and named Daniel Coleman, and he talks about authoritative leadership, which is not you must come with me. It's not cool worse and it says you see a better future? Do you want it? Maybe people don't want it, but in point of fact you have to look at the horizon. You have to the moral horizon have to say this is something better and to hold Americans to their highest and best values. That's a good thing to do. Are we there? No am I there not every but I want to be there and I want America to be there, and so I'm looking for what I think is kind of a moral dna of this country. World in this country unambiguously Billy.
Is in the radical, the quality of human dignity. Why? Because you make this point, your new book everybody's got to get this book because it talks about how how these, how these judeo christian values these western values are a gift to the world people, even if they're, not religious through a lot of people watching us were atheists were who were or secular completely, but they believe in the quality of human dignity. Why? Because we have a culture, that's based on the idea that each one of us is made in God's image. God is worthy of respect, that's the essence of dignity, and so each one of us is worthy of dignity. That's what Americans are We believe, furthermore, the reason that the you know the people came here in the first place is because we believe the limitless nous of human potential. So let's call Americans the dignity in potential. Are they living up to it now? Will they ever live up to completely not my lifetime, but I'm going to work in a social movement in an intellectual movement in Animedia movement I'm, but I'm work work with you we're to work together to try to help Americans live up to those standards, even though we haven't hit
I mean. I certainly agree with all that. I I wonder if they're active opponents to some of and then the reason I say that is because you, you put you point out Jonathan Heights. Moral matrix John, has been on the program officer height and he and we talked about the the five factors. Maybe six include liberty, which I added later and you talk about. How service and and liberals still believe in a couple of them the cashier to some passion, fairness, but even those ones it as as presser height has recognized, are seen in almost diametrically opposed ways of fairness, for conservatives is fair in this, in the meritocratic sense, the idea that we all have equal rights. But the outcome is not going to be equal and fairness. For many, on the democratic side is fairness of outcome, which is directly opposed to fairness of meritocracy. When it comes to compassion on the right side of the aisle, the value system tends to be well compassion. Is me helping you find a job, develop a skillset care for yourself and compassion on the left side of the aisle is. How do I create a system whereby-
You don't have to care for yourself whereby we are caring for you. That's that's real compassion. So if that's the case, then even the most basic values, the ones that are necessary for us to be playing the same game so to speak Have those been radically undermined, or do you think there are bridges that can still be built? I think there are bridges and the reason is because, let's take something like fairness, where the right really does focus on meritocratic fairness, it's don't take something that somebody else earned and the left really does focus much more and read it the fairness, the idea of redistricting somebody has more, somebody has last: the person has left and less needs more you take of a person has more okay, I got it, but that doesn't mean I mean that you and I who are guys on the center rider on the right, don't believe? any redistribution is wrong. You believe that there should be a welfare state, and so do I I mean I, I believe that the the free enterprise system, one of the greatest accomplishments ever the free enterprise system, was our ability to support people we've. Never even that is incredible thing that no system in history has been able to accomplish is because the capitalism, because the largess the came from capitalism that such a
blessing I'm so proud of it, and that means I believe in some mental redistribution, I'm just more meritocratic in that balance, and I know a ton of people on the left. I have tons of friends family. I mean I used to be a musician and college professor and I come from Seattle, Washington for PETE's sake. I know a lot of people on the left and and they don't they don't think the merits garbage. I think that merits great because they want their kids to achieve. In the end they they're kind of proud to live in a country where people can see companies and do great things they just they want a little bit more redistribution. Now you find radicals and- and when I say this, I mean that that the sept- approximately two million account of the seven percent of people who were troop polarizing radicals in this country who don't see any common ground, but ninety three percent of us give or take actually do believe that there can be some common ground that we can work to together in some way shape or form that I'm going to be bridging that meritocratic redistributive divide and I'm going to be
really for giving only be as generous as I possibly can to the people who don't agree quite as much of my meritocratic values. So I can try to get some fairness to bridge that gap and I think it can be Ok, so the a second. I want to ask you where you came from because you're, so is really fascinating, and I want people to hear how you got from french horn to what you do now, but first, when the founders crafter the constitution, the very first thing they did let's make sacred the rights of the individual, to share their ideas without limitation by their government. The second right, Daniel Numerated, was the right of the population to protect that speech and their own persons with You know how strongly I believe in these principles. I'm a gun owner owning a rifle, is an awesome responsibility. Building rifles is no different. Bravo company manufacturing! are in any garage by marine veteran more than two decades ago to build. Feel great product that meets combat standards. Bcm believes the same level of protection. Should be provided to every American, regardless of whether there are private citizen or professional Bcm is not exporting arms company. They design,
engineer and manufacture life saving equipment. They assume that each rifle leaving their shop will be in a life or death situation by responsible citizen law enforcement officer or soldier Overseas opponents of the Bcm rifle, is hand assembled and tested by Americans to a life savings The feels a moral responsibilities as Americans to provide tools that are not. Feel the user, when it's not just a paper target, but somebody actually coming to do them harm Bcm and with Bing instructors of marksmanship from top of America's special operations forces? Who can teach the skills necessary to defend yourself? Your family or others to learn more about. Bravo company manufacturing head on over to Bravo Company and F g dot com. That's where you can discover more about their products special offers and upcoming news. That is Bravo Company, N, F g dot com. You can also check them out over Youtube Youtube dot com, Slash, Bravo Company USA. Bravo, company manufacturing, fantastic company. So I want to ask you about your personal story because, as a person who also grew up as a classical musician
it is pretty amazing. I mean you started off as a musician in Spain playing the french horn, and here you are doing public pool a and data analysis, how do you get from one place to the other? It's not the typical path certainly not linear it mean what went when you say. How do you become the president of a big national think tanks? The answer is not you know play different short. I started when I was a classic musicals for your soul. I played you know. This is a typical story. I mean you're you're from the arts to I started following us for piano when I was five french horn, which I, really good at it turns out. When I was nine and from that moment I want to be the world's greatest french horn player. That was my real ambition. I just grew up wanting to do this. When I was nineteen, I was in college. I spent a little less than one year in college. Was the California Institute of the arts right here outside last night, outside of LOS Angeles in Valencia? Santa Clara Valley. It was a pretty rewarding experience, I think not just for me, but also pretty unrewarding for the institution and they they they. They. They offered me an opportunity to earn my success. L
and so I I went out on the road as a as a professional life for playing chamber music already United States. I did that for about seven months a year from nineteen is almost twenty. Five, a put a couple of years with a jazz guitar player named Charlie Byrd, with a group called burden brass, which is fantastic us. Twenty five got a job in the Barcelona Orchestra inside and and the reason actually did that by the way was a two: total start up in Denver, I met a girl fan and in a matter when I was on tour in Europe and she lived in Barcelona and the only way I was gonna have a bid at trying to you know I was going to have to go all in at the quit. My job moved to a place for never learn the language, as I'm done under for a week at this point, but you know I told my dad dad this gives you a little and the insight into the you know the war there is a down at the girl thing with America's great soon, not so great, she does a living. I stay. She doesn't speak a word of English and she doesn't know the
I don't want a restraining order anyway, so I I I quit my job and moved to Spain join the personal orchestra and were about to celebrate our twenty fifth wedding anniversary. Is a what yeah it's a totally did we have three kids, two four teenagers, but I'm not here to tell you my problems any. As I said there, you, big fans of Ben Shapiro, so that's fresh, that's right stuff, but when I got to Barcelona I thought to myself. You know I want to do something more. I dropped out of college. That kind of bugged me. I got nothing against on going to college. That's all kinds of good lives can happen without going to college, but but for me, I kind of felt like I had screwed up and I'd failed. So I went back and started studying bike by correspondence and I got my bachelor's degree in economics and I had this weird epiphany,
This is why I love your new book so much because it really spoke to me. It reminded me this epiphany. I had my late twenties when I was studying for my bachelors degree. I took economics for the first time and I and I I learned this cool- raise the thing that eighty percent of the world's poverty had been around a kid it. Since I was a kid you know, I thought that hunger was works. I thought that the world was worse and, furthermore, I thought capitalism is great for rich people about for poor people- and you know I grew up in a left wing environment? I do nobody who cared about economics or business, but I was learning that two billion of my brothers and sisters have been pulled out of poverty. Since I was a child and I learned that it came from five things: five things anet all economists left right and center. This is not controversial stuff. This is not. This is propaganda. Five things pulled two billion of Ben and Arthur's brothers and sisters out of poverty. Since one thousand nine hundred and seventy was globalization. Free trade
property rights, the rule of law and the culture of free enterprise spreading from America all around the world- and I thought you know My favorite composer in those days was Johann Sebastian Bach, the greatest composer ever lived and he was asked near the end of his life. Why do you write music, his answer, was the aim and final interval. Music is nothing less than the glorification of God in the refreshment of the soul, and I thought to myself. How can I answer like Bach It wasn't answering like boxes of french horn player in the orchestra. I thought I want to do something that glorifies God and it refresh which is the lives of other people, and I became an economist
the blind to the business Bach made me into an economist, and then I you know I taught I got my phd. I taught for ten years and then I became president of the the greatest thing taken: the world, the American Enterprise Institute, where people fight everyday for dignity, for potential and and who believe that that the printer price system is America's gift to the world, but in an artistic way, because the the fact is that, unlike most economists, your your storage, driven person, talk about this in love, your enemies, the idea that story is really what connects us and well. You can know all the stats that you want to know in the end. What's really going to allow you to connect to other below is the ability to identify with them with them on a one to one level. Absolutely you know, is it the truth, it's funny when you're trained as an economist, you start believing that the force of your argument is going to win people over, and I wish you did but I I know I lost arguments for you know. Fifteen years you know people would talk to me about the minimum wage. I would say: don't you wonder
and supply demand and you're raising the cost of labor, and you did that that threaten people say you know it's just a hard hearted, something something and you just want to. You know, put more minnow dollars and of the CEO of Walmart's pocket or something I thought! No. Until I realized I needed to tell a human story. Look I mean the people who really want to fight for a higher minimum wage. God bless them, they have a really good intention. You know there was a long time when people on the political left weren't fighting to make work. Hey the people who want a higher minimum wage there fighting to make work, pay! That's a really good objective until I finally had enough generosity to say that's an excellent objective. I completely agree with that, because work brings purpose. Work brings, meaning you had micro in your show. Work brings dignity in every single job. Every single job is a blessing. That's good! There's, no doubt in jobs, right. So, ok, okay, so I really respect that particular objective of the people who want who want increase the minimum wage there.
Just worried about the ability of people at the minimum wage to be able to support themselves and their families. I'm worried about that too. So, let's talk about a better way to get it done. That doesn't imperil the people at the very bottom of the wage ladder to keep their jobs. Let's find better policies and, let's find more open economic systems. Let's share the. Active and let's, let's differ. Let's a competition of ideas about the way to actually meet that objective. That store worries about real people and that's rocked my world man. That's completely changed my work.
You talk a lot the book a at least the beginning of the twenty sixteen election. What you think happened there, what drug resident caused from breaks a lot of these rules right president Trump is, is a master of the use of contempt in reps from everything that he says: hi he he can be vicious and brutal and very effective. Hey is political warfare. He talked specifically about sort of a group of folks. Do you believe, fell just possessed by current politics in looking for a leader to a kind of restore a feeling for them, and you specifically are talking about Non college. Educated white males. Would what do you think the situation is with cut and non college educated, white males, and it seems like if you're anti content, what do people across Spectrum, including this group of people, need to need to think about yeah? That's a great question, something that I've contemplated a lot. What did I get wrong it? I know that you're, not this huge fan of President Trump, yet we're both trying to under in the dynamics of what's going on in the United States, so we can help our country the people on the left of all of a sudden there's this income gap
and people on the right of always said, there's an opportunity gap and in both things factually exist, but the real thing that we missed was the dignity gap in this country. You know for ever since the beginning of the war on poverty, which you did amazing things and raising the standard of living. I mean, if you go to the poorest places United States, you don't have a calorie deficit, every was got running water, you don't have enough space to live in, but the truth of the matter is that is basically that that that system in our culture has said the poor People we don't need you. The basis of dignity is to be needed to be needed by your family, your community and indirectly to be needed by the economy. We forgot that we've been moving away from that, for a long time that was exploded? That was exacerbated massively by the financial crisis of two thousand and eight and people who, in positions of authority and power they didn't seem to understand that there was a dignity gap and when people feel that they are not needed, mad they're going to fight back, they want somebody who's going to fight for them. You know Donald Trump
Ideas may have been good. They made of it might have been bad his ideas about in on I'm standing in front of a coal mine, Aurora Steel plants. In going to open this thing back up, you might have said: that's a bunch of class rap, that's not right, but finally, somebody was fighting for people who felt that their their dignity had been attenuated, so what we gonna do about that. I mean if, if Donald Trump as a course of leader is ultimately not successful in his bid, I mean look: he's got the best economy in decades and it is popular. It isn't very high, I'm not gonna, say a lot of political prognosticator, Lada meteorologist in the in the in the in the in the weather of politics, but but I
and I don't know what's going to happen, but whether he successful or not successful, we have to take a lesson about dignity from this, and that comes from making every single person needed. You want a good policy. It makes people more needed. You wanna terrible policy. It makes people less needed less needed their families, which is to say that it's it's split. Families apart prison sentence for that lesson in their communities, by fragmenting our communities and and most importantly, in the case that we've seen over the past ten years unnecessary the economy by by by creating incentives for idleness by making it harder to find jobs. This is the Oracle on how to bring dignity back and how to fix the situation for the US states. The only this is. This is a fascinating debate me, because what I've seen. Is that there's sort of this continuum all it when it comes to the dignity gap and and the power of work ranging from Tucker Carlson on sort of the populace out, almost a laugh, two or and Cassie somewhere in the middle. This is the third recall since the populist left. Yeah I mean he sat in the chair that you're currently sitting in and pop in, and he
legitimately said that he would outlaw self driving cars in order in order to reserve jobs for people who are driving trucks, for example, and he's been he's spoken in his book, his new book. He talks a lot about regulation of the economy specifically or to provide it to to prevent technological progress, because he believes that they're, a group of people who are gonna be put out of work by that technological progress. That policy is almost indistinguishable in certain russian Bernie Sanders is policy right, and so, when it comes to when it comes to Tucker on cultural issues of the populace right when it comes to issues of of economics and regulation he's in many ways closer. The piles of its kind of fascinating, then you have folks like one casts, are kind of in a populist middle right because you just did regulatory reform, but he's also suggested the idea of a certain amount of redistribution. Where do you? Where do you follow along these lines? How do we cure this problem because it seems to me that we We may, if we feel learning transformative moment if we feel the word.
Moment where, where technology is obviating an enormous number of jobs for people who don't graduate from college, then is the solution to that, Shin is the solution that regulation, or is this solution that maybe something else which is for the time in a long time return finding meaning in something other than simply going to factor into a job. Yeah. Okay. So this is I'm not a populist, I'm I'm not trying to rhyme. Here I'm an optimist, I'm I'm an optimist about looking actually happen in this country. Look we've had wave after wave of time. Technological change. We've had wave after wave of the way that that that jobs are sorted, the way that they break up the way that they're reformulated and one thing I'm just not willing to accept, is that people actually can't see labor markets and skills in new ways. This is America. I mean the whole idea that somehow it's either no skill malls in desperation and trying to hit the brakes on technology, so the self driving cars are somehow illegal or you have to go to college. Those are that's insane,
economy. As far as I'm concerned, the truth is: we've lacked imagination in this country because we have a completely screwed up educational system. We have an educational system that is great as serving guys like and and Arthur, and it's really really bad at serving people who have all kinds of visual spatial skills. It's crazy that are standardized testing in this country. It looks at verbal and quantitative, but it doesn't look at visual spatial skills. Like I got a kid, a teenage kid is turning nineteen this year. His name is Carlos. He loves you he's watching this right now. Carlos graduated from high school he didn't want to go to college. He wanted to go to work, so he went to work on a farm in Idaho and he is thriving he's getting up at five hundred o'clock in the morning during harvest he's driving a five hundred thousand dollars, Kambin he's doing stuff that I can't even imagine it amazes me, I'm so proud of him. Well, I'm his dad. I could kind of help him make his way into so that He could earn his own success, but not everybody is in a family where those opportunities exist. Why don't we have a country that
has the imagination to say that not everybody is cut from the same mold that if you don't go to college or somehow illusory, that's nuts? What we need to actually do is to beef up the vocational and technical education system in this country. So it's just as important as going to college. We need an apprenticeship system that we could experiment with, and state and local level, there's all kinds of policy solutions to this. But the cultural question is the biggest one of all which is actual respect and dignity. That goes people who don't have college educations because they have so much to bring look. Here's the key stat, not that three million people are going to be thrown out of jobs. We have self driving cars but that we have in million unfilled jobs in this country today, look I go to places in eastern Kentucky. We just shot this documentary film, partly in a place called pine. As Kentucky were bored President Johnson kicked off the war on poverty, and you see unemployed people next
on fill jobs. I talk to people in manufacturing all the time who they can't find workers. What's up with that. That's not because we have too much technology, it's not because we have to make it illegal to innovate, I'm a work doesn't matter how much you make it illegal to going to happen one way or the other we have to embrace it. We have to scale up and we need an educational system had that sh that treats people with equal dignity, whether they go to a Harvard or not, and then this is one of the areas where I really think that it gets an uncomfortable tension because a lot of folks in conservatives and left the circle of liberal circles, they they focus a lot on what the government can do to make. These things happen. It seems to me the vast majority. The stuff has to be done, through social fabric and when I say social fabric half the time, I think I'm using a euphemism for religious community, because the truth is that there are a couple of factors that I think we're here. Three general so there that are no longer here. One of them the belief that there's a community
That is larger than you. That is going to help. Take care of you. If, God forbid, something happens to you and government has been used as a substitute for that, and the other is that you know that that community exists not just in your city, meaning that when I was talking to Her- and I thought was fascinating conversation because Tucker took the position that you should never have to move from your hometown. He said you really have to move from the place where your grandparents are very nice and well. You know there is this biblical called Abraham and the the interest in the Joseph Campbell hero's journey every every journey starts with somebody calling you to adventure, so America was always about that call to adventure, but the call to adventure exists largely because I is due Jew. I can pick up and I can move to anywhere. I know that there's jewish community and I can walk into somebody's house, and I know that they're going to be able to take care of me they're, going to help me out, because we share a certain fundamental certain fundamental fabric together, it's broader than my social community, my jewish community. I think it extends also too many religious Christians. I think in a to conservatives, but in the absence of that social fabric, I think it's going to be very difficult to build the sense of comfort that you can move somewhere and start a new
So how do we rebuild some of these key components because we live in a time when people have the greatest ease of travel we've ever had in human history, when, as you say, there are lots of jobs available to people who want them and people are not moving when there is this almost a feeling of malaise to use a cart of right, that is, that is sent over the country where we feel like we're in a dying community and if we tell people to pick up and move from those communities, that's a political loser right, telling people to pick up and move from those communities. But if you tell people the best decision you can make is to graduate high school and then get any job that you can possibly get and don't have a baby out of wedlock. This is considered by a lot of folk. American politics to be discriminatory in terrible right and the for, for those of us who are kind of freedom based folks, like the personal decisions come first, I wonder if there's a fundamental disconnect about the picture of the country itself, that that is, that is going to be difficult to bridge yeah. It's it's really tricky one of the things that we've forgotten, both on the political right and the political left to me that the political right has been
become pretty libertarian over the past you and then I got nothing against. My friends were libertarians, but you got to remember that stuff does not work unless the the the fundamental moral code is existing. Underneath that I mean morals come before markets. Meeting Adam Smith wrote the wealth the nation's seventeen years after the theory of moral sentiments, I mean he believe the that we're we're not dignify. We can't handle a market system unless we actually have our morals together, that we understand and serve each other, that we have a concept of a greater purpose. That's the reason he thought that the theory of moral sentiments was a better book and more important than the wealth of nations. He went back to at the end of his life and worked on it. What we've forgotten in this country, on the political right and left, but especially in the political right, is where
all wealth, the nation's no fury moral sentiments. We have to remember that none of this stuff works- I mean it. Yeah capitalism is machine, it's a good machine, it's a great machine. It's the best machine for pulling out of pop people out of poverty in the history of mankind, but, like any other machine, can be used for MEL purposes. It can you can it's like a car. You can drive it to work and support your family, or we can drive in your d, get drunken driving your neighbors living room to run over a mother. Watching television hurt them, I mean it's a it. In okay, capitalism actually requires morals, and this is the thing that we have to run. So, therefore, what I would like to encourage people watching us to remember is that in America, in an entrepreneurship based society, we're not just looking for the next innovation, that's going to make us richer. We have to be looking for the resurgence of our ideas through social entrepreneurship that bring our culture back. What really great entrepreneurs should be doing spiritual entrepreneurs, cultural entrepreneurs, people that are thinking about what the
dear, should be for a really great America, and by that I don't mean a richer America, just a more prosperous America. I mean a healthier country were happier where people want to live, and people want to raise their kids are going to have a greater sense of adventure whenever a greater sense of community. That requires the best minds watching us right now to think about themselves as the entrepreneurs that are going to truly bring the country back. That does not necessarily mean developing an app what that means is developing a congregation, maybe and that's the kind of trip man. If we get if we got back to that idea, that by the way, is the entrepreneurship that made America what it is today between the civil war, the first World WAR, that's the the self improvement in the tent River a full and the and the and the and the temperance, the abolitionists, spirits that went into the social entrepreneurship that that made it into a a congenial environment that drew your great grandparents here. That's why they're, not in some town in the Ukraine,
that's why they are in the United States and we want to give people the courage we have to create the ecosystem that well, as will inspire their courage if we want them to get a. U haul. Instead of just being depressed about, what's going on, we have to create an environment where they have that kind of confidence, just the kind of confidence that you're talking about, and that requires the innovative spirit, the frontier spirit that we kind of lost in this country. We got to get back so this year based political questions. We haven't done any based politics at this point, so I want to ask you you talk about the distinctions in conservative and libertarian and how much of a social welfare state there should be? What is your? What is your ideal? What do you think should be? Should the social Welfare state look like in full disclosure? I tend to. The more libertarian on this, in my view, is that the vast majority of social welfare
be done at the at the non governmental level by religious communities. Ideally and then, if they're people fall through the cracks, that's were, local government comes in then state government and federal government. But when you talk about sort of the the certain levers that you think that we can tweak and social welfare, where do you see the ideal social welfare state being? What would you think that that level looks like now? I mean I could but dollar figures on it. We had to go through the spreadsheet. So that's what we do it. That's why? God created american enterprise thanks actually to come up with all the figures on this, but but as a as a philosophical principle. I I I I have you know good, pretty solid, libertarian routes like you do, but they're they're, they're, more, morally, based and practically based. I'm not really that concerned about how much it costs. What I'm concerned about is the delirious spillovers that happen to people
the margins of our society is so. The key thing for me is using our policy ideas using our intellect using the blessings that we've got on behalf of people with less power than Ben and Arthur that's my view. I mean it's a and that's a that's a you know once the food on very Catholic, you know in this way, but but by the way where to get these ideas, we got these ideas for the Jews yeah. This idea that we exist such that we can help people with less power than we have That can mean a lot of different things. Hi. I don't care that much about the money I mean I realize that you run out of other people's like that was that you run out of other people's money. Sooner or later. When I work sorry about is the extent to which we've designed programs that do mobilize people that hurt people that marginalized people and leave them desperate. One of my colleagues, Charles Murray, who losing ground in one thousand nine hundred and eighty four. He pointed this out the problem. The welfare system is not how much it costs it's that it harms the people that supposed to help and that's the fundamental problem,
so my libertarianism the extent that we can call it. That is based on that for that, for for the for the for the principles, how much it costs they were actually getting into accounting. What actually works? Well, what works the criterion for what works is. Does it make people more needed, or does it make people less needed and welfare programs from nineteen since April? Twenty third nineteen sixty four when Lyndon Johnson went online as Kentucky until today. Have been making people last needed more comfortable and less needed, and that's the big scandal that I'm willing to spend tons of money, I'm absolutely willing to spend actually what it takes. If we have a welfare system that will enhance the necessity of people and as such, to build up their dignity and we're not there yet okay, so the at the very end of your book love your enemies, you give a bunch of tips for people hi how to actually get beyond your own feelings about this. In a in a as I say, there's a there's, a concept in Judaism, called lesser and lesser is, is the idea basically of of
trying to convince to be better at being a human being, and then I took this is a work of mister, I'm reading it and and I'm thinking to myself. Okay, how can I do better? So what are some of your tips for folks to to help love their enemies? To help get beyond ego 'cause. A lot of it is about ego submission about saying, like you know what content would be easier, vons here, I'll take the hit and I'm going to try and love you anyway. To begin with, the most important thing to keep in mind is that when somebody treats you with contempt, you have to see it as an author. Today- and this is a real mind, set set chef. I learned this from our friends the the the latter day, saints previously known as the Mormons me, and you know they would say that the album missions- and it's amazing- it's like man. How do you deal with the rejection?
I mean because you know, people are not like ball a Mormon, so the I mean it's, it's very tough, like a logical, incidentally, are sent every time that there is some rejection. That's an opportunity for us to react to the rejection in such a way that people are inherently morally attracted to it. So the first thing to keep in mind is that that we have mastery over ourselves. This is a blessing. You know we're. Creating God's image were actually able to to extend the the the the time between stimulus response. You know you're stimulated if your trip, if you're treated with contempt- and you answer just like that with contempt, then the time between still interests and response has been minimized because you're, not the master of yourself, you can make the decision to answer with it with content, but typically we don't so we need to do. Is this just a take that time as well? I was just treat with contempt the big opportunity as a big opportunity to answer somebody with kindness and in so doing,
somebody's going to see it, it's gonna change my heart and I'm never going to go away saying you know what I wish I would been more of a jerk. That's not with so that's principle number one. No personal number two is rebellion, and you know it's it's funny. You it's in one of the things that I I take a lot of my writing in a lot of my thinking from Saul in ski. Actually, he was a very clever guy. His politics are all messed up. As far as I'm concerned, he was wrong on those things, but he was really good on communication on and and and it's very clever a lot of ways and one of the things that he did and a lot of things that people on the political left of the from time immemorial is to stand up to the man is to have a sense of the man. Well, we need to do that right. Now, too, I mean again not to treat any bid with contempt, even the man, but to remember that seven percent of Americans are profiting from the current environment. Now I say this with appropriate humility because
Sometimes it's been Maine and I don't want it to be me and that's why I've written the book and that's why we're having this conversation? That's why I'm so grateful that we get to talk about it because we haven't been perfect, but we want to be better. Ninety three percent of Americans want to be better if they don't want the current climate of contempt, all the people who are unrepentant about this we're getting rich and powerful and famous an getting clicks and making money and getting elected office that seven percent we need to leaving behind. I mean it's time for us to turn that off and to think about what we can actually do to lift other people up and here's the third one. Here's a third one here is the one that really capturing my imagination. We have to go forward on invited and say things that people don't expect. That's the sort of the the missionary spirit. That's why I admire you, you're unafraid and you go places where I technically you're invited by the cultural but you're not invited. I mean, let's be honest,
When you're going onto a lot of these college campuses, there's a hostile environment and the truth is they don't understand you I mean I've heard your message for years you're not coming in the spirit of hostility in contempt of the country you're talking about big issues in you're, trying to explain things and call her in terms and they leave you Rep sent something we're all kind of these days in modern American Boris politics were just avatars for something else right, but but you're, not but you're going anyway and you're going in a spirit of adventure and and you're always happy. I can tell you're having yeah. Of course you do. Look. I read about happiness. I know that else. I can tell that you're happy to be that. That's a really really good thing. What we need more is people who have this spirit of the missionary they want to be there, even though they haven't been, haven't, been invited and we going to say things that people don't expect not more hostile, not more out Justin people expected, but more loving and and not agreeing but more loving than people expected it in and leave you this. One image has really stuck with me lately, and I close the book with this because they had such a
the impact on me. You know I was at my wife and I we do we do with our marriage. Prep we teach marriage prep. For you know, twenty five or thirty couples every couple months in a in a catholic retreat center near home and it's really super inspirational 'cause? These guys are, I mean they're in it, going to get married for the rest of their lives. Till death. Do us part and were just given a little bit of our wisdom. 'cause we've been doing it for a long time, and we were in this chapel of this marriage retreats. And I notice the sign over the door, but not a sign when you're going in it's a sign for people who are in the chapel going out into the parking lot is the last thing you see when you leave this. It said you are now entering mission territory myself, that's not a religious message, necessarily that's that's Ben and Arthur in our public ministry. Look, we have one life. We have one career. We have one set of opportunities to get out there and spread. What's right and true your book does this your book at
Lee says this, is a gift share, the gift? If I, if I were to sum, summarise killer, I read, I got to be looking for anybody watching us to read the book right, that this is our gift and we get to share it, embrace it with love and happiness and with affection and with positivity. That's that's! As far as I'm concerned. That's the point, your book, that's what we can do with our public men history and all the things we talked about as well, get out there. Remember that when you go out of the house and you're talking to friends and you're. Talking to people who disagree with you, you're in mission territory, don't mess it up, nobody kicks down the door and threaten somebody as they join the church they try to make a beautiful. They try to make a good and that's what we can. I that's what I can certainly be better and that's one that I can rest my life to do it. So I have to ask you because you, famously your you've, been famous vegan for a long time how to the v I have to ask. Is I've been getting this question more and more on college campuses, and I really do think that one hundred years when their actual appropriate meat alternatives for children
It's gonna be one of those areas. One hundred years people will look back and say used to kill animals for food. That raised him to kill. How did you become vegan? How did that happen? My wife, so my life is always I mean all good things in my life come from my wife, I mean it's. It's either everything. I've learned about love. Everything will learn about my catholic faith. All that stuff comes to my wife and my wife experiments with different diets from time to time, and I have to say it was kind of bothered me, I mean eating again and not you know this is get a ton of emails. When I get it, I I I I think it has some warm for veganism. It is going to be some at me just because in a in a listing, that's nobody should eat meat, and and that people shouldn't raise animals and people shouldn't. I mean fine, but for me, I felt more comfortable getting my sources of protein and giving getting my nutrition from plant sources for a bunch of different reasons, both health and ethical reasons, and so I tried it and I gotta tell ya man. I feel great great all the time I mean it's weird, I'm fifty four years old, I feel better than I did when I was twenty
here's all the part of the reason is because I'm living, I was a musician and as a let's suffice is a living, a healthier lifestyle, the pack of cigarettes, not there, that's good too. You know, among other things, but yeah. I I find that I I feel like I'm in my twenties. I feel great. All the time has something to do with my with my die My exercise and- and I recommend anybody wants to try it. I think it's a. I think it's really good. I would recommend it to at least try it for months, okay, side and one. Finally, the two guys on the right for vegan. I know it and then we'll immediately lose our jobs and they. So I I have one more question for you. I want to ask you where you go next because you're at eighty, I am now you're moving on. I want to ask about that. First. If you wanna hear Arthur Brooks, is the answer. You have to be a subscriber at daily where to go subscribe. It daily, dailywire dot com click on that subscribe button, you can hear the end of our conversation over there. The book itself is amazing. You should go buy it. Love your enemies by Arthur, Brooks thanks so much for stopping by. Appreciate your time. Thank Ben
the Ben Shapiro show Sunday Special is produced by Jonathan, hey, executive producer, Jeremy, boring associate producer Mathis Glover edited by Donovan. Fowler audio is mixed by Dillon case hair and makeup is by well there a title graphics. Cynthia Angulo, the Ben Shapiro, Show Sunday Special is a daily wire production copy daily wire, two thousand and nineteen
Transcript generated on 2019-11-10.