When I saw what was happening on that beach idea. I stopped bodies, Saudi and then my mind was flashing through there's a son, a father be coming home. This week's episode of the Sunday special is going to be a little bit different in just a few days June. Six will be the seven fifth anniversary of D Day, the allied invasion in Normandy, the beginning of the end of nazi domination in Europe. In today's episode, I'll be interviewing for very special veterans who not in world war, two summit Normandy itself, Jack Gutman, George Tampa MIKE Levere and Tom Rice, I'm honored to have been able to spend time with these men and I hope that you enjoy hearing their stories. well you're. Welcome to the program Tom Rice,

remember the 101St Airborne Division during the day Mister ice. Thank you so much for for joining the show. So what was it like to jump into the middle of firestorm on D day, a lot of answers to that question, but the mainly it was chaos, chaos, chaos. And so everything that is chaotic probably occurs in route the we were stationed at Merrifield airport, five hundred and one battalion one was there five hundred and six battalion three and three hundred and twenty. Sixth airborne engineers boarding hello of forty five aircraft in section fourteen well, headed down the runway and one aircraft down. There was a Fellow who was injured on one of the practice jumps, then

he was in the hospital he broke loose from the hospital when going to miss this escapade and he got to the airport yeah, but without proper equipment, Kids, revel scrap injured up some stuff or I mean you got in the plane and took the one spot, open and Lieutenant Hamilton's aircraft and for Iphone and whatever else was supposed to have an an as the plane taking off a rifle shot we're doing the aircraft and lieutenant Hamilton, walked up and down the center aisle between the eighteen guys will know who did it 'cause nobody's going to tell? But if I I found out, and he picked up this guy by the shoulder straps and lifted him up bang his this head against the bulkhead Took him down to the door and threw him out and court

then Corey came into being in exonerated Lieutenant Hamilton said he had all the right to do that and the guy could have been shot for doing that. But that was when the answer. So we took off and I always jump number one, the I could see all that was going on and uh I was looking down at seven hundred and fifty feet was as you want by above. The door, there's three lights or white, like the green light and a red light as we test the coast, the white light goes out and Red light goes on, gives us about eight minutes. A of time to get ready. So what was happening in the aircraft was that lieutenant done Benson was jumpmaster and he got hey, buddy, a bug, verbal signals.

The hand signals 'cause. If we did have, did not have a door on the aircraft. This just didn't. Wasn't there took it off and wasn't there so the hand, signals with stand up and hook up. We hooked up to a steel cable that was about three eight of eighth of an inch in diameter and from the pilot's cabin to the afterward little compartment there and we snap fastened on that lieutenant and went to eight number. Eighteen man who he was eighteen man and he he the equipment on seventeen man and it just sounded off. Everything He's. Ok, seventeen checked sixteen and on up to me and I'm in the door and turn out right. We were traveling one hundred and seventy six miles an hour and that's too fast, it would jump too low how low I'm not sure it got no proof, but it was low somewhere around

five hundred feet. I guess and when I left foot was in the doorway Jensen, balance. Is everybody ready, so we fill the air with sulfuric fumes of acid words and and yeah or get the hell out of here as fast as we can. We could unload that aircraft in between ten and eighteen seconds. I guess everybody's pushing from the rear, so, his last word is out for the most part this, and in the door in the soul. Here I am repositioning the door and with that speed, I went out the plane went up about fifty feet. I think and big because of the she said I ate a six pair packs were job, we're just dropped, told, simultaneous Select the so that made it a much lighter load and so that kind of glued me to the floor, my hands on the outside of the door and, as I stepped out, uh the prop blast caught millions slam,

be up against the outside of the aircraft. My left arm, caught in the lower left hand corner of the door. So I swung out- I'm back in body upside down, reserve parachute up to my face. Is that bad? Halfway up there also and I hit the side of the aircraft. A no bounce back out again came back into the sets aside, written arresting guide and the the guys in the stick we're going out under me and there's a as I came in the second time, I just was able to turn a little bit and and and just at my arm from the side. The door and I had a a two hundred and fifty dollars. Walsum Wristwatch, on with the face toward the polym and that's great that often ilost. I lost that one. I hope some good Frenchman got. It doesn't so I feel free and then I was down with us with the

out of the risers knew the the parachute canopy, you only event pics caller to the top of the parachute the full. The most part was not large enough to take care of all the flow of the air so well, I start possibly to write and dump it out and swing the left, dump it out and within a matter of five or six seconds, how it goes underground and with uh let padding in front of me. I made a right forearm parachute landing fall, didn't get injured so here. I am well once once you land what was the next move to is to meet up with the rest of the people in your life is a good idea that harness and everything was so tight that I could I had a double zipper here: on the Yeltsin jumpsuit with a switchblade knife, and if then does who I reach for that open it up got the switchblade knife, push the button out, flips the blade nice

sewing the wedding trying to get loose from that. Or two and three man came up. They had the motor, so we had there a little canal, so we did we recognized each other five or six of uh. Got together there on the roadside and one of one on the said to me hang grenade with the pin fold. I said I give it to me once you, you can't put a pin back in a hand grenade shot a little bit end on it and that's it. He might have pulled it and didn't know what to do with it. And or throw it away, but Okay, give me the hand grenade everybody down. I took it and hold strive. Only put a death grip on that thing, so this phone wouldn't slip out of my hand, but did I got five seconds so I rolled over the side of the road dropped in canal and roll from the side of the road and it exploded sent shrapnel around and when water and mud splattered us so

got up and no for the most part, we began to break up and five six of us I went down the road too, so I saw a small house on the side of the road well I got more hand, grenades. We got German. So, let's investigate twice. I not a felon. I flowed Martin and I went to the front door and I said Floyd: don't bang on the door like an ugly american, they just knock on it, a role and we'll see what happens the rest arrested guys. I said around to the back in case there were Germans in there, so French, finally came to the door. And he had a white nightgown from shoulder all the way to the floor. He had a white eight cap well the puff ball on the end of it same white, and I picture him as Scrooge, and so I start at the left and right there? I knew I was getting in danger when I came back to my senses, because once you get your mind taken out

of the danger into something that is for the most part could happen in a city. You've got a prob, so I really quickly came back to senses that I is in danger. So we pushed him aside. As well as a because it's been occupied by Germans for four or five years and put the map on the floor and pointed in three different directions, and found it off with the name Karen town. He pointed in the right direction and, meantime, his wife came in dressed the same way and he excused himself and he came back in about five seconds- twenty five to twenty seconds and He had some ammunition gave us six and he kept to when, when you first jumped out, I mean it sounds like it was you mention that it was chaos. You came in it was silent with correct. I mean: was there fire? Where were you under fire, when the planes were dropping you well, there's so much. No, you really don't know, but I can see the first of flame in a hurricane of fire, came up under performed over rectangle.

And I knew we were heading toward that rectangle and luckily the So that's one way to the right and that took us away from the drop Zone B, toward drop zone d, and I just ended up on the southern end of drop zone D. So what was your first interaction? like with the enemy when you did hit the ground, the six german pair, The infantry regiment was having a party one night, the June fifth one of the tones, or rather one of the yes, yes, platoons was at the beach causeway four for and our mission was to hold because we two three and four so the beach forces come. Then could go through continue in the hedgerows rose and the Germans out we ended up there at it's called the of Hell's corner hello. This It was going on and we the the the German coming in toward us from love,

is wave four for the most start having fun smoking in a rifle slung on their shoulder and not think there's any enemy around will resolve observe from current time, from the body of first or second german regiment and they. They were pretty mild, my uptick because they saw germs they saw Americans milling around down in or what to do so. We have set up a defense and the Germans walk right into it. We fired on him, though, machine guns and mortars on both the ends of the defense, the line They are regimental colonel of Johnson took to german speaking GIS and went out and tried to get it the regimental colonel of the German of contingency and He didn't. He said that if you guys are ready to surrender, he said no, it's too early to surrender. We don't surrender under these conditions, so

They turned around and walked back in and they got fired on then half an hour later they went out and tried it again and they told her yet the regimen colonel german regimental colonel that they too have the men are. Woon did put band Xander rifles, get rifles, men in the ground put their rifle, but or the helmet on a rifle button will come out and pick him up and we will have a truth for one slash two an hour so for the most part, that was what was going on now back at him. This corner, I was right next to a lieutenant who had jumped with us and he had the with the United States naval ship Quincy and he was trying to communicate with them, because Colonel Johnson watered fire put on. There are- the end of our ours. Because of

coming down from sure borderline and thirteen and and we're going to invade the area and and and get a get in behind us. We were surrounded every time we went in, we were surrounded the within one, about to happen. So he was making. Contact when they use the baseball lingo and for the Mars bird who won this game and who won that whose national champion itself. So they made good communication and there were three fired. I think there were eighteen inch guns, I don't know for sure, but but they were heavy winds and, and I heard love the first round whistle over my head, boy what a racket had made. It was long. Second, one was short the third one was right on and from there I was and detailed detail to take two men and go to LAB Arquette Luck, lock and I'll post it. So we went over to the library cat and I set up a defensive system

The locks were closed. The polders flooded and Part of the wonder that we're not flooded had Rommel rumble like stuck in the ground. They were pulled trees that were the bark and branches appointed in jammed in the ground and then wire strung from treetop to treetop yeah. And on some of they had their minds that was anti glider activity that play Sander Anti parachute. They told us before we jump to make sure your legs crossed when you come down rely, picture angles. Ankles and hope for the best so crossing the lab? Burkett luck. Decided not to go into the house, because if anyone anyone patrol came through, they could surround us, set it on.

Drive us out, and we don't do this in real quick. So we we set up in the orchard right next to the house right hand, side of the house and uh. We were about a whole ten yards apart and we we knew we knew we had a pretty good idea were being observed because the Germans at at at current on with above sea level and we to stay there until called back. On the sixth, as the debris Jake was coming into being. I set up a series of steel fix and strong wire between the steel stakes. And hung tin can full of bolts and nuts and rocks from the wires and stretch it

cross the areas that they might approach? Judge german patrol my approach from the left. Absolutely talking whatsoever from this point on until the next morning? If any nothing happens, if any rattling occurs, just start shooting and so so at two hundred in the morning, we started shooting, we got one. He laid out, there for quite some time, moaning and groaning And the gurgling sound Have a dying man stops all conversation just you know so, once the guys had some mortuary, experiencing without with his trench knife and finished, Often in the morning we pulled the guy in and and dug a trench for him, and uh under an apple tree, and I took a couple branches and broke him and made a christian awesome put it at the head of it and I cut off his wings. I still have wings on the book. I wrote then never get.

But whether Germans, who linear in your pants or your pocket or anywhere 'cause they'll, do you in specially those guys in baggy pants We call the Germans, devils fulsome your green devils, so we stay there until June. Seventh, then we'll call I can put in reserve because they give first and Fourth Infantry visions had already moved through us, but more than just one. Second, but first it's the only thing more annoying than fake news or flies and other insects invading your home. Who knows where those flies were last fly the just landed on your hamburger, good men from anywhere from another piece of food too. Well think about it. So we'd like to thank our sponsors- Dyna trap. Dyna trap is the leading manufacturer of outdoor mosquito and insect traps. Now they've come up with a solution for indoor pets, the dyna trap, Flylight the dyna trap, fly, light works day and night to attract and trap flies. Fruit flies mosquitoes other pesky insects, I've got to say it really does work. Forget those disgusting fly, strips

the dyna trap fly light, looks like a subtle night light that plugs into any indoor outlet. Trust me. I've been using the dyna trap, fly light for a couple of days. Now it is insane the number of insects that is caught, that would otherwise be buzzing around my home get yours right now, a dynatrap dot com d: why an a t, r, a p dot com, enter The promo code daily Wire receive fifteen percent off any of their products. Dyna trap the safe, silent, simple solution to household insect control, go check them out. Right now Edina trap, that's D Y and at T r e p, dot com, DINA, trap, dot com, I'm go check them out. Right now, use promo code daily Wire, get fifteen percent off any of their products, so you're going back now on the 75th anniversary of the day, you're actually jumping out of a plane again ninety seven years old on a c forty seven- it is the first one on the took place in the of an invasion. Is that how do you feel about that is not right? I'm going to, yeah, but at this time and they go for the ride. So

I think, they're, a more than one in the aircraft, the they're going to jump static line. Maybe one thousand two hundred feet and then now I gotta I gotta go to thirteen thousand and we're going to have an american flag french flag, a hundred first airborne division flag. I think we're going to Edward from weights and attached a little the harness and we come in we're supposed to be spectacular. We did it. For at the amount the year before and it was it worked out very nice How old were you when you, when you jumped out the first time first combat the he twenty almost twenty one. What what was your kind of trading when you, when you first, when it first comes out? How much training did you have to go through to become for over two years plus we had, for the most part. Then we did anything and everything and anything- and everything was experimental because

airborne activities were so new that that the experimental all the way. What was your most difficult jump most difficult one. Well that first one in Normandy Ellen my jumps were great that normally one and other things that I thought that they had thought of, but nobody never thought about a plane going up, and maybe three thousand and forty or fifty feet when the pair packs were dumped, and I machine gun bullets was going to come up through the bottom of the aircraft and in this strike me and Jen, then in hit me in the vital spots and change my plumbing. Well, thank you so much for thing that you've done and congratulations on the on the upcoming jump will certainly be watching. Yeah. Good luck with that. Obviously, thank you. So much hello so we're here with fur

Lieutenant Michael Levere, his b twenty four navigator in the European theater. Thank you so much for your time. I really do appreciate it. I'm beginning with this. Where was your first mission as a flyer? My first mission was to test. What they call Ets on bombings. We were chosen to take this new device out where the bombs had fins on on that were radio control and we drop these bombs we could actually move them to correct its course Could move anyway, this way? It'll great was not movable, but they cost was, and we flew two missions like that and they were off the coast of Denmark some to talk a lot of the, because it was a an oil refinery actually with the we're supposed to hit and I for not to be a rather easy mission. They usually gave you an easy one to get to fly. You know to learn the ropes so to speak. Now they call it a milk one, but I never liked the term milk on because-

even in a milk run, somebody is shooting flag. If shooting eighty eight sent you an if one piece hits you and kill It wasn't. A milk run, and I remember it was a lot of fun when you've got flack on every said. It will very well loved defendant. What we would we did mostly daylight bombing is soul. Then we could we could see these guns firing at us. You know new black Shell. Eighty eight millimeter shell explodes the airplane. All you see is a big puff of black smoke and a flash and you don't hear anything really, it's not that close to you if it gets any closer you're gone, I mean just shrapnel. Every mission we went on, we came home with holes in the airplanes little because you know it when, when a shell goes off, just flat as a whole area, with a flag, what they call flag, which is just fragments of metal,

and though we had a lot of holes. Fortunately, none of the holes were critical, so we always got back on on a mission. The second mission I flew of was a rather difficult one. I think we went to Magdeburg, which is deep in Germany and that's what I really saw people getting knocked out of the sky and things like that. It was quite quite a sight to see a plane had hit and spiral down. The c parachutes coming out of the and falling to the ground. Unless you actually see the real thing can't imagine how frightening that is. You know that that could have been you and you wind up in Germany in a prisoner of war camp. But the icing quite a few that I was very lucky that the we never got seriously hit the what we had to abort the

Will abort the mission because we were struck by a german fire. We actually aborted the mission because something went wrong with the airplane we had to come home, but the way you were yeah you got credit for every mission that you drop your bombs over enemy territory to a certain talking. They gave you certain turk targets of opportunity, which meant that if you had a what you could pick one of these talk as well paternity, vomit, make a record of it, and it would give you credit for mission. So how many missions did you actually end up flying sold? Are I did a total of thirty six combat missions and what that did the include several other missions, which included bringing gasoline supplies to General Patton. Who was running up the at that time by the time. I had to do that. He was moving up the French into Belgium.

And he had run out of gasoline or was running short on gasoline end up what they did to a B. Twenty four was an Oscar wandering was take the bomb racks out and put two five hundred gallon gasoline tanks in at the Kerry Automobile gasoline, because that's what his tanks use These will called gas missions and since they were administrative type missions, they were not counted as a regular mission, but they I my opinion they will dangerous than a regular mission because of the amount of gasoline that was actually around in and around the airplane, from slight leaks in the tanks you and the fumes. Would you couldn't smoke get anywhere near fire. Airplane would blow up and we had four tanks and wings. We had to Tokyo, tanks and two main tanks, and so they we just flew at the Tokyo tanks with aviation gas and the first place we land,

was class. Strays France, where, on landing it was such a Germans had just left that area about. Three days prior to Us Lending- and there was quite a few bomb holes in the runway, and so when I finally got there, I ask the pilot he says: do you see? the land on land on of runway he's, as we've got a how to get rid of this gasoline. So we flew very low over the runway to look at it nice. I said a lot of holes in that runway he's as well, we're going to land anyway. Unfortunately, at that point my pilot had who shot the end of the runway too far in and we wound up going off the end of the runway into a medal of mud and a plane sank that right down in bomb bays and we were so afraid of the plane exploding we all just got out of it and grand like heck

to get out of the way and the only other missions that I did that I did not get credit for was at the end of the warped a many of the ground people at service, the airplanes the air base during the war. Now we are able to get in the airplane we took ten of ten of about. Time and flew over Germany over the rooftops to show in the amount of damage in the German, and I'm tell me it wasn't roof top left in Germany we got through it. I mean it it's really destroyed. So in a second, I wanna ask you what it was like both dropping the bombs and also being on the other end of receiving flak, but first time has habit of getting away, but if you've got a mortgage or kids or anybody, depending on your income, you're going to have to spend some of that precious time getting life insurance. If you need life insurance, but you do I want to spend a lot of time, comparing it. You should give policy genius to try policy genius is the easy to buy life insurance online. Just two minutes you can compare, quotes from the top insurers and find your best price once you do apply,

policy genius team will handle all the paperwork and the red tape for you, no commissions, no hidden fees. Just more time save for you how's. The genius doesn't just make life insurance easy. They also do home insurance and auto insurance disability insurance. Your one stop shop for financial protection. So if you need life insurance, but you're short on time, head on over to policy genius, dot com and compare quotes, policy genius is easy. It saves you money not to belabor the point, but it is indeed fast.

I'll, see. Genius spend less time, comparing life insurance more time. Doing literally anything else, be a responsible adult make sure that everybody is taken care of in case God forbid. Something happens to you. Go check out policy genius right now check them out a policy genius dot com. So what was the the mission that scared you? The mustangs talk about a couple of the the gas whole nations. You talked about seeing the other airplanes. You know exploding for me. The most dangerous mission I think was so soon and Berlin, because the fortifications around Berlin, the amount of guns that they had down in defending the city is an incredible. I mean it. The sky was just black with flak and is also in was similar to Camp David. It was their headquarters were all of the german hi, I'm hi a muggy mugs to general little it would meet to plan out maneuvers or whatever to enhance their position on the wall. And we we were found out through intelligence that there was going to be a big.

German meeting, a very important generals and hire people in in the german army that we're going to meet there, and this was close to the war ready at all. They were losing the war pretty bad by that time and we bomb Zosyn. I have never seen so much flak, I mean it was the sky was black, so on D day. What was your involvement with the invasion? I was in the second and division of the eighth air force. The ninety six combat wing, which consisted of three groups. One of mine was a four hundred and fifty mom group and I was involved in the D day, landings flying mission at data, the bomb air fills in somewhere, behind the lines where they were going to invade Normandy we weren't really aware of what was going on. You know that we will not have it was very secretive before the invasion and we were to sign a mission, and it happened to be no? The d day, landings

We we knew there was a lot of ships in the channel at the time one. What's going on. There was this big thing, and we did our mission bomb this airfield and came home. How exact could you be with that with the bombing given the technology and the and the constraint lobbying the Norden bomb site that we use at the time was fairly accurate. However, only the lead, the lead plane really aim the bombs, the rest of the planes in this formation. There could be as many as a fifty or one hundred, maybe as my as four hundred planes in formation they would drop on smoke walkers at the end that the lead planes would drop. They would okay to talk at the end of the bombardier in that plane would aim the bombs and then the rest of the formation we just drop on his small walkers and the accuracy was as good

the guy that did the initial Amy if he missed everybody missed, and that was the case most of the time believe it or not, as good as the bomb site was it. There was so much bad weather during the winters in when we were bombing that we never saw the ground half the time. You know we get a little break and one thousand drop his bombs and everybody would drop their bombs with the on the smoke and if he missed everybody miss, and once you join, what was the training regimen like to become a flyer? Well, they picked us up on a train. We wound up with the case the field Mississippi where we initially took our of basic training for flight, the duties zero, and you still owe you a classified tool three, but you

been determined whether you would be a pilot to Bombardier navigator. It depends on what the air force needed at the time. The accord news I've is there was not the air force said it was cool the army air Corps with part of the army. I had trouble passing through the auction at the high altitude oxygen chamber test. That's a test where they put you into this chamber and they simulate well, they don't simulated what they actually decompress the chamber until you reach what is the equivalent of about thirty five thousand feet and and you spend about an hour in there and at that altitude. You take your maskell of your oxygen there, so you can feel what I'm not actually a which is a lack of oxygen would feel like if it happened up in the air they they ask you to try to write or talk and speak like that, and so you would learn what it felt like. We should have a really great. I couldn't pass that test because, previous to my entrance into the army, I had an accident where I broke both my kneecap.

And apparently, when I got at that altitude, I got a lot of pain in my knees from bubbles or something I don't know what it was anyway, I had to be decompressed and taken out of the chamber and. Then they rescheduled me to try it again because I never told about the accident, hold on, I gotta wash out right away because you can't have broken bow. And become a an ethical manner. I was rescheduled for this test meanwhile, the other people that were in the chamber with me and he's all these people at the Elks Elsa Games. You know their last name had shipped out to in Arizona for night gunnery training. And while I were at king,

Arizona these people were on a bus going tonight, gunnery practice and at bus was hit by a southern Pacific freight train going sixty or seventy miles an hour and kill them all. These are all the guys and they were all killed. One day I was coming out of school at coral gables at the university and this news kid was hacking. Hey is twenty seven after this killed, and that was a little about a blast and also I bought a newspaper, and I was a. I was astonished at what I read had I have passed the test. I would have been on that bus. So what was the rest of your crew like? So? Do you with the same crew for the entire? No, I did not fly with the same crew. I feel about I'd, say around eighteen missions with my initial crew and at the of for the war. Our I was assigned to take it they they will send me back my ship and I don't want to do that. I want to come back with a with a with an airplane, so what are they said? if you get a spot on that from some kind of need,

navigator. You would get home because the pool I was flying with they dispersed and they were broken up. I don't know where they all went but What I did is, I got a hold of a friend of mine that new a pilot that needed a navigator and I got on that crew and flew a b twenty four back from my air base back to Boston, and at that time the Japanese were still fighting in the Pacific, and so they re assigned us to going to be twenty nine training and during that time the atom bomb was dropped and, of course, was no need to do anything further, so that was all cancelled, and we will send up to Fort Dix New Jersey for a while give you a choice and you want to stay in or did you want to get out? If you had enough combat points you could get out, which I did so when up to Fort Dix and was destroyed at Fort Dix wow MIKE Levere. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you stopping by thank you very much

joining us is Jack, Gutman, Navy Corpsman, who served on the beaches of Normandy and okay. Now Mister Gutman thanks so much for joining us. So what was it? like to to be serving on D day. What was your experience like? Well, we hit that beach there was no deal where you can land right on the sand or anything there would barriers and it turned out as well I did it later on, was to find out after sixty six years of post stress of what the heck have and because, when I came on their eighteen year old mind, I stopped bodies floating I saw body on a all auto in the beach body parts all over and it was so tough, two well

I may be confronted, I've seen blood and so forth and other things, but I tell people, have you seen saving private Ryan. Well, I says this kind of kind of double that a little bit, because the one thing or private Ryan didn't show us all. The body parts laying around and men my mind was flashing through there's the Son of Father there won't be coming home and here in a I'm scared, as hell I had I just had boy was scared. Seeing wounded people and what was going on and there was firing on the beach when we arrived. Even at that time there was firing, I don't know where was from, but there was explosions. There were mines all over the beaches and all and what I, to find out, which I found not later

Why in the heck did this happen? Why did we lose nine thousand men you know in for that battle? Then, when I read about it, the big problem was. The shell, the beaches and then they were supposed to send over. There was actually five thousand ships. Eleven thousand planes. There was four thousand five hundred Lcvps landing craft of various times and then there was a hundred and fifty thousand troops. Englishmen and Americans are all was a massive force. Was something you've figured you. This is beyond comprehension, and then I find out why we lost so many men. It turned out that the planes that were supposed to hit the bunkers there was cloud cover and

They said it would again see divisions is that we think would think when is drop dropped. The bombs, so they dropped bombs of mile, at least there and the bunkers were- hit it all and they had machine guns which I found out. 'cause shoot off one hundred and fifty bullets a minute or more and just mowed these poor guys first second third wave whatever it is. It were just one of the problems that will happen as what we said so many bodies in the water now is that guys would jump, which I found out even from some of the wounded did there, I was asking what happened below and these the guys were scared and when they drop, the ramp and and machine guns wouldn't mowing the guys down they jumped off the side of the boat when that happened all of a sudden, these heavy packs at I have on him, which is at least fifty pounds or more, and they went right down they couldn't they couldn't get. The packs off.

Drown, so some guys never even got a shot off for anything like that, and it was just one heck of a mess on on that whole thing with that on on that beach, what would you do from there with the wounded, my job was to assist the medical group that was already there. There were guys that that had been patched up or, and there was other guys that are not an hi. I tell people so when no matter what they're doing and when I speak at different places, when you were on a team and you're doing things, never think you or low man on the totem pole, because when I was going in. I was a cornman first glass really one of the lowest man? On the totem pole? I was a medic to do something, but I found one interesting thing

when you come up on the Woon did and the guys pleading doc, help me or my god naked. And you look at him gushing blood and you're, putting their taxonomy I'll him a shot of morphine, but the threats. You know. All the sudden I realize now I think about it that to that man I was the most important thing in his life and then and I tried tell people no matter where you are on the totem pole you, do your job and do a right. We went from. One to the other, some guys it was the interesting to watch, how some people die like one was talking, Minnie, says dog I. Finally, wounded, but I'm going to go home and he says

and make it right dark and I said yeah you're going to make it and then he dies. It was strange, you know, and then I've seen of the deaths were people to us. Wind up almost set up and talk to you a little bit and then they call back and die time just flies by you keep you go from one to the other and then there's some people. You have to re dress because when they first medics go through the leading there for there to be evacuated, not was going to be part of our job. So you blood gushing so much that you have to redress it now you can't take the old one. That's on you, don't take it off, put a new one on I myself, I was really scared. I really scared was be there when you see what I saw There- and this is an eighteen year old- mind It was guys that I saw dead there and I

thought of the guys on the ship earlier that day, laughing and kidding around all this, it was just a horrible thing, and so we evacuated these people back onto. I think it's like those flat things like you could put a lot of uh the moon is on there. So we did that we loaded them on and then. Finally, I think them. Then we went back with the what we taking care of whatever wound we had back to. The house but on which was in ITALY, England. Now there was a guy there I took care of. He became almost like friends with me. This officer use young lieutenant and he was telling me about his wife and kid. And I just felt for him, but he was losing spinal fluid and when you lose spinal fluid you I ask the doctor: is he going to good doctor said no. He won't and he was talking

He says you know I'm looking forward to get home to my wife and thanks for helping me, I know you do best for me and I'm looking forward now. I remember you and I know he's going to die and When he died, he to delirium, because when you lose spinal fluid all kinds of things happen and then. If a man dies, on your watch when you're in the hospital within not on the beach or anything, but there you have to pack every cavity in his body. So we won't leak before rigor mortis sets in and to do this four times.

Here in Okinawa and everything else and I'll tell you Ben it becomes very personal pan, it's obviously harrowing stuff and he had some experience in the Pacific theater as well. Well, for instance, I was at the English hospital was there for over a month taking care of then they gave me thirty day leave fifteen day leave Then I figured I'm going to go to a state side hospital duty. Already certain my day. I went through this hell and all of a sudden They needed medics because they were knocking off the medics, see in Normandy we landed with a red Red Cross and a patch on on armors arm, and that was fine, but in Okinawa.

They would they did in the beginning and then the Japanese, but it was a target, so they were killing the medics off, and so therefore there was a big rush to have a bunch of medics over there. So I whether I had Normandy invasion or whatever the duty. They needed medics and I wound up there. So next thing I was on a ship called the Booby and we went on to Okinawa and they made invasion there and we lost fourteen thousand men in Okinawa that by definition sixty two thousand Woon did. I tell you up in all the young people, and you see so much death and everything like that. I think the picture hacksaw judge brought out a very good thing on that thing, and I realized that at that time there I was Probably taking care of a lot of that wound is, I didn't know about Haxall Ridge or anything like that, but then the other

Getting an organelle where that was horrible was the kamikaze planes, the kamikaze plane? means of these young guys that get it they got a bomb on the on the ship and they fly over. They just go right into the ship. Well, I was just finishing up it's taking care of some patients on the on my ship, the bully and I'm up on deck. Having a cigarette, I smoked two packs a day. Then I don't smoke anymore and what happened then? Is set. All of a sudden, a big gun went off right near me and that cost me is half my hearing on that on that and I'm in here battlestations. So I'm running and all these kamikaze planes are coming in and then I see them summer. Hitting some of the ship well I'm running to the sick bay. We have not done the deck there. I kid you not there's a picture.

I I had my file in all its in my book to fitness this book here and that there was I saw this kamikaze plane coming in low and we veered you could see that look because it was between. A football field a little over a football field between me and the and the battleship New Mexico unless are you coming in low and he fears and goes right into the bridge of the battleship New Mexico. The explosion was horrendous and I stood there just. I could not believe it because he, my job, is to heal people or try to help them and I'll see a man giving up his life for the first time, purposely is a live there and then he's dead. I tell you Ben that stay with me and plus all the other things and I wound up I. Finally, when I got home I said

I made it. Thank God for that, but I was a different type person. Well in your book. You actually talk a fair bit about your struggles with PTSD has wondered wondering if maybe you could talk a little bit about that because a battle battlefield battle today can you get over? It didn't get it. Where was getting worse in my book, my I didn't have it in and then my daughter made me put it in my book. My daughter, Paula and she said you've got to tell people. The flashbacks, but, like I said well, there was just horrible and then this is what I think. Maybe they like to know. Well, my all the flashbacks from different guys are all different, but my flashbacks were I keep seeing him in the end. They all happen quickly or when I'm sleeping especially, I see the invasion.

Over and over again I see the body parts. I see the guy screaming Mama Mama and it's all magnified and is just a horrible field, they kept getting worse. Well, I, when I came out of the Navy, I didn't talk about being in the service. I did more. About the war, because I Do they throw me into an insane asylum? I'm very honest with you, I'm telling the truth: I've else. I would wind up in in a mental institution one and what happened in my training I spent few weeks so it's not mental institution taking care of patients and it scared the heck out of me. So I didn't want that. So I never told anyone to. Finally, the was at the veterans and found

He said you ever wanted and I said right, I'm going to finally tell you that there's at sixty six years- and I doing the craziest things been. I was self medicating myself with alcohol. I was doing so the craziest things Let's see, if you were talking to me and you said Jack, I got this problem so far. You've you a financial problem. I've already check for two hundred and say here's, the gift and uh. Is draining my bank account was not would not being refilled, and I was training and some problems with my wife. I was telling bosses off. I was doing the easiest things that I couldn't understand and I justified what I did you know. Well, it just turned out that I wound up finally telling this guy all these things that are happening to me and he said you've got post, dramatic, stress and I said never heard of it

because we did not know the word post dramatic stress. So I wound up. He set me up with a therapist psychiatrist first and he gave me a bunch of tests. Then he says you got some serious problems. Then he sent me about a veteran and a guy named Dillon Bender Great great men update. Very compassionate well. The first session I had with him- and I was reluctant about going, but my first session with him. He took me back to Normandy and it was so traumatic for me. I was crying and then he said Jack rubber going to do is going to melt those cubes that have memory in your head and then we're going to wind up, you will be able to talk about it and get back to normal and he says I will see you next

and in my mind I love. I love looked at him and I thought- and I said the hell you will I'm not coming back, because I do want to go through that again then I lay he he said. I want you to think about it. So I left- and I think it's sixty six years of doing the craziest things you invited me to your house. I would not, bring one glass of a bottle of wine? I would bring a magnum of champagne or a gallon of wine, so I would not run out- and I was with my family on Thanksgiving at my son's house and we are eating, then you're playing I'm playing, I'm drinking all the wine I brought in everything and when they set the table on thanksgiving- and I sat down to take that brought the meal. My face- fell right into the plate in front of my family.

What's the most embarrassing thing as a broken, have an intervention with me that my daughter Paula was like a therapist. She got me to go to a grief, recovery plan that program. She was in she's, very good at it and she got me to finally cut back on the liquor and from coming back on the liquor. I finally wound up going to the This therapist and I went three one slash two years and this therapist and he finally little by little cured me of it, and then I was able to talk about it and then finally write a book, and this is this- is just kind of an a short book and all I kept it very honest and and kept book cheap. You know just so. I've

I want people. I give away a lot of my books because I want people to know you don't have to d a m end of war to go through post stress disorder. If you got any kind of stress or any problem- and I tell people when I speak a different places to get help it. If you know a veteran- and I plead with veterans, if, if you you're a veteran in you're. Going through this thing. We are thinking of suicide. For God, sakes. Don't do it. Please end up it's. I say this because What I went through an I q and now I'm able to just be free to talk about it. I go to schools and everything else, and it makes a big difference is made a whole change. My whole life now

I'm sorry. I had to talk so much no lease rates in Iraq. I mean it does raise the question. I think that a lot of people would would ask which is there are thousands of people? Thousands of men hung sure have experienced the same thing that you have in terms of PTSD, particularly aftermath of the things that that you've seen what was it worth it. I mean what made it worth it for America to do this. Do you mean to go to war? Oh absolutely because I know I've seen some, things in and talk to so many people. You know in various countries Some whatever may be too, we are not perfect, but we have the most wonderful country in the world of I just got through. I came back from Washington just this last Sunday, Sunday and it was my first time back there in many many many years when I was a kid there and I into the memorials there too.

See the memorials touches my heart and my I saw Arlington, I always cry, and I, and what was so interesting is that they had a police escort for the two buses of nose. Sixty some people. It was so exciting and that the test so hard is that they gave us like v, females used to get females or not the letters from different people for my family. They were in Montrose. He gave it to us on the plane. Well we're going to Washington and we read and it? Wasn't a dry eye of those veterans, hearing from school, kids and and family I got him and I was crying to the other thing It was very emotional for me was when I got to Baltimore those people coming

some restaurants in standing out in applauding just touched your heart, you just could not believe it. And then, when we got back to LOS Angeles, they had a huge group upstairs and one downstairs Somebody a young cadet comes up my name on it and says: Welcome Home Jack, Gutman and and all the people applauding I mean you talk about tears. That was a lot of ears because all of a sudden you realize they remember you know, and it it touches a lot of veterans hearts. Well, thank you for coming. In God, assuming you're, the one who's done the service. I just sit here and talk for a living. So again, thank you. Much it's really an honor to have you here, and I really appreciate your time. Sir. Thank you Ben What's an honor and pleasure to welcome to set George Ciampa is a private first class during Normandy and actually served.

In the Us Army graves registration was wondering. Can you tell me what your experiences of landing on the beaches of Normandy? What was that like? Well, when we got to the shores of Normandy. They say there are four or five thousand ships out there and I believe it- ships all around you and the shelling above us, eighty eight. So you could hear him screaming comma screaming meemies, but we saw ships getting hit I remember tanker blowing up in those bodies in the water and those debris in the water and uh. You know I was eighteen years old, one hundred and twelve pounds. I was skinny kid. I. Finally got done a rope ladder and with all the gear on, and I get into lci landing craft, that's the smaller Higgins, boats and we're heading in here. The 88th screaming over us, and I remember we started heading in and we came back out and

start heading in and we came back out and I thought it was because of the shelling thinking we're going to get hit any time, but I found out years later that the guys driving that thing he's looking for a place to land as the Germans had the obstacles in the water. The key, just from getting all the way in so we had to wait in it. Just probably seen pictures of that, and so I was so frightened I mean I was blacked out momentarily. I don't remember getting off the lci and I talked to a buddy of mine. Years later, and I said hey guys to tell me what happened and we really wait in the water. He said, don't you remember that I said no We did we waited in hell there rifles, overheads and everything. So our job was to, Gather the that they didn't want any dead on the beaches, morale of other troops coming in

and so we picked up paratroopers that had landed in the channel erroneously because I don't know happen, but they dropped him in the wrong place and they shoes came down over them. These paratroopers are loaded with gear and they drown, and so we wrapped him in their parachutes and buried them we were attached to the to the first brigade combat engineers for provisions. And the fourth division landed on that beach on Utah Beach, half of our guys platoons landed at Omaha and two at Utah, and I was at Utah talk a little bit about how you ended up in graves registration. What was like and what were you doing in the lead up to D day? Well, you gotta go back to when I was a kid. Because when I was five years old and again at seven years old few situations of family with deaths, and so I had to

fear of death- is a little boy. They put me in a in a catholic school and get a ten funeral masses, so I dropped out of school. I just couldn't couldn't handle it anyway. When I turned eighteen, I tried to New York or I went down to take the exam and my eyes are two thousand and twenty two, and so I flunked so then I got drafted and got to Cheyenne WY and got put in graves registration company? I said what the hell is that graves and when I heard what I was going to have to do. I thought I gotta get out of this. Well luckily, at least temporarily, there was an air base next to Us Fort Warren, and they were looking for pilots. This is in March of forty four, like three months before the invasion My brother was a in the Cory was a pilot and the brother in law also, and it looks like a glorious thing. This has to be a part of they walked with a swagger hats to appeal to girls, love them anyway,

Nobody knows this except me, they lowered the I requirements to twenty thirty with no glasses, so I could pass that so I took the test. Every big was great. They notified my company commander and you know he hit the roof and he was very upset. I didn't go to him. First of all, I just geyser routing, Liza hey here. I am let's go so anyways, but it was a company going overseas right away. They were, they were needed, one man, so I was the replace the guys are all older than I was they were all kidding me shipping away overseas, don't worry chopper are they turn it? Take it home, Roosevelt, our president, said no, eighteen year old, set foot on foreign soil. It was that either so we shipped out- and on the way over there in the middle of the night, we're sleeping down in a hold and uh all of a sudden. It's a big explosion

ship was rocking everybody's screwed up a deck and then found out that there was a torpedo plane that was dropping a torpedo and the Navy gunner shot him down. That was a explosion and the Navy gunner. I had met the day before he was my age, and showed me his quarters and we got acquainted. His name is Dennis Reed from Cincinnati. Oh, I never did get in touch with him. After that I wish I had because he really saved our lives. Can you tell us a little bit about your experiences digging graves for your fellow soldiers. I saw bodies and remember. Had the fear of death was a kid. I saw bodies in all shapes and forms for eleven months every day we did that battle of bulge into Germany. Initiating seventeen temporary cemetery

Just over eleven months, somebody in the headquarters figured seventy five thousand, roughly bodies that we picked up, other that's the german and american 'cause. They didn't pick up their dead, and now we we put them in in mattress- covers very dumb six feet down during the battle of bulge the ground was frozen. We had german prisoners digging the graves. I want to tell you this about gathering the dead, the stench you're, not changing clothes every day and you're sleeping in your clothes, with stench, you're spitting your dry, some of the guys chewed tobacco, whatever we didn't have gloves at often once in awhile,

We did so it was that it it. It was pretty tough with the stench for for quite awhile, and this was my job. I I broke down. One day after a couple weeks ago, that I'm surprised I didn't before that, but we tend to pull those forty fives as you get your out there and suck it up. Yes, so I did. I worked like a robot around these bodies. It was tough looking at faces of guys, my age or a little older at all and looking at. It was grotesque. It means some of the some of the bodies were natural. Looking, but most of the war at all, a lot of a miss missing limbs are shot up bleeding badly in well. For example, if we give you an example measure the tanker getting out of the trip and he's on fire any drops down on the ground and burns up, they bought a chuckle that's about as far as

I'm going to tell you that, have you actually made it back to Normandy since the day I don't want to go, I turned I turned on the tv was a lieutenant colonel Well it on Utah Beach, the start of the tour agency called Kelsey Tourism Pennsylvania. Is it looked on? Take your they're free to take you and your your your fiance and your two kids so We got that freebie trip and we went over there before we did anything we're on the tour bus. Everybody had a talk about what they did.

My son looks at me after that needs the dead. You never told us anything about this. I said yeah. I know. Excuse me. If, anyway, we walked through the cemetery there, Normandy, Omaha Beach, Coleville, Sur MER, it's gone, and I walked alone for awhile. But I wondered what bodies I handled because that's the job we had handling body and the walking through the graves of in looking at the looking at the marbled crosses and stars of David. I noticed that there's no date of birth, on a truss on addresses are stars of David. Only the date of death and that struck me and it really bothers me. A lot

because when people walk through the cemetery, they have no idea how? How will these guys are? So I looked at my as I said you know what you're two thousand one hundred and twenty two now a lot of these guys were younger than what you are now date, one thousand nine hundred and twenty. We know the high price of freedom, they're just words, so a lot of people- and I can understand that. But if you see that you know the high price of freedom, so that's what I've been doing since two thousand and six I've spoken to thousands of kids in high schools, not only here, but in France and Belgium. And- and I stress that well thank you for doing that, and thank you for coming on the show and doing that education really is I think, the beginning of reestablishing the sort of patriotism you're talking about George Comma thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. Or working to bring you all sorts of extra material as a subscriber when you do subscribe, for

nine hundred and ninety nine a month. You can hear all sorts of new information as extra questions to all of these amazing soldiers. You can hear all of that over a dailywire dot com. When you become a saint, for just nine ninety nine, a month the Ben Shapiro show Sunday Special is produced by Jonathan, hey, executive producer, Jeremy, boring associate producer. Mathis Glover, edited by Donovan, felt audio was mixed by doing case hair and make up is by just what will their title graphic by Cynthia Angle and a special thanks to J Hoffman and Doug Stable ten. For this episode, the Ben Shapiro show Sunday Special is a daily where production copyright daily, where twenty nineteen