I The brown and this is business wars, the fight between them. Rowan bad boy records lasted less than a decade, a mere blip of time and the over fifty year, history of hip hop music, but the impact of that conflict and its aftermath still today the notorious Biagi into box secure were the most high profile casualties of this music industry brawl. But it does where's the lives of those that survived to, in particular, Faith Evans, notorious B. I

Jeez widow and the subject of solution. Unsubstantiated rumours that the rift between the rap icons was in part, you, two Evans having an affair with Tupac. Those room. Put Evans in the middle of a deadly rivalry and specula soon about her involvement, follows her to this day. Perhaps s because of a lingering questions around the investigations into the murders, or maybe there's something more something about how women are treated both in the hip, hop community and the music industry as a whole. For more I'm joined by name, Cochrane, she's, a music and culture journalist, informer industry executive, whose behind the scenes, shaping the careers of beyond, say, John Legend Juicy, J and other major artist. will explore how the rivalry between death row and bad boy records changed the rap game. And look at the rivalry from the perspective of the female Superstar caught in the middle. Oh that's coming up.

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over my dead body season, three Fox lake on Pod casts area listening right now,. no, Cochrane welcome to business wars. Thank you read me. We know how important the music of his error was, but what kind of impacted the gangster rat movement have on the business of hip hop The most immediate impact on the business side was that hip hop, which have become a very welcome commercial commodity, was in danger of being marginalized again in the early days, a wrap. It was difficult for an all rap

were to get the news in offer promoters to take it on four venue owners to want to do it. There were some issues in the late abies, where there was a lot of violence different on chosen concerts. So there was, we went through almost a decade of not being able to get massive venues for all hip hop bill right, so just as were coming into an era where you know after you won t be wraps and after breakfast time ago, mainstream people are recognising that they need to be in this business. This was giving a reason not to be so I would say that was most immediate Second, it is, of course, the lost that will never be able to fully measure of two prime artists cut down and early twenties, we'll, never really know how that reverberated through out. You know hip hop history, what it would look like what might have been yeah what might have been lit? Let's, let's pick up on that

because in the nineties you start to see wrappers crossing over and becoming mega stars with both black and white audiences had of the artists react to that now. found, fame and recognition and in the scale of this thing, just exponentially growing, while in a timely one, because I know what we're talking about is big, saying we never thought hip hop could take it this far from it. I think that there was a different level reaction because you think One of these. We have to remember, however, that these are very young people, big dated twenty four right on having people around the same age. So these were young.

Who had a lot of money in a lot of recognition by quickly even the label heads were young, the boundaries of her pop hadn't been hit our, I won't say they have now, but there was still just so much unexplored territorial, what can be created and what could be done in a new lands to conquer, etc. So I will say of anything it it. It really kind of added to the sense of on distance of events ability, This sense so almost like now, the world is right. That's so interesting because I've seen you work in a country, that right that attitude and that style with say the public's, the general public

understanding of gangster rap at this time is no secret that a lot of early have all parties especially used the music. As a form of escape use, their talents is a form of escape from cycles of poverty, on cycles of violence and alternative to ending up in jail for an indefinite period of time up, but does not have impoverishment reality amongst these people. Really was an idea of like we're gonna make it out by by whatever means I dont know. If the public outside of I guess blacklist, as for lack of a better word or a core hip hop. Consumers will

How did it like? Oh the tragedy of this network, there was tragedy by it, was also highlight within it. We're gonna get ourselves out of this situation and again very young people, but then going to your point about the attitudes that they had amongst themselves. Like I said there was also, there was a broad. This man attitude, indivisibility part, especially by the end, was really almost openly courting death. The alternate theory or one of the dominant is, I should say about why that killed, had nothing to do with the east coast. Bus close beef at all that, but possibly because he was twenty nine members, on an and step to someone who was very senior and others how he lets go deeper on that EAST Coast West Coast, beef, as you referred to it right, I mean I think, as hip hop extreme popularity began to grow. We also saw tensions grow between east and west, and I think a lot

people have difficulty rapid their heads around. Why do that? Why is that? It was at a thing. What was his beef really about and also do want to add in here, while the EAST and West were focused on those shots at each other. The south emerged as a stronger, viable contender asked about Atlanta in Houston and all of that for exactly and Miss ninety four source wars outcasts men's best new artist, but also that the same a war show where you know circuits Newport addressing be from the stage. You know that this is all happening when Miss Eyre. So obviously the thing about the EAST verses was, in my opinion. My very humble opinion is that it started as something very small

could have been squash that was inflated into something really made. What really happened was we had a very angry and sensitive pack, and I don't mean that in a negative way, he had been through a lot and authorities and by most reports after he came off of the Jews shoe the movie Jews in which he played a person with who very quickly got very angry and monitor. the mines? Friends? There was an element of that character, Bishop that never left. So this is a man a time that we go from all keep your head up. Part to Pakistan want Europe to be wrapped. He's costs, not the humdrum brothers. In on a rest, follow other drama follows so he actually part is actually is closed,

barbarism raised, I'm he's not. It was called stood by now. He Sancho s clothes label em. He actually was cool it back. I don't know if anybody would go so far as to call them friends, but they would have me associates data now and he was recording in the studio. aware babble using recorded he got shot in lobbying studio. He always believed that if it wasn't it, people were badly wasn't big and powerful. Batboy police, who said what directly they knew about it. Let it happen, and that was the kernel of this and what happens right after that is that big, Egypt Sancho who such it was actually was recorded long before her. This whole situation even happened where that such a package with a bunch of people here, that's gonna, be here if it sounds like it to be about package in that country,

that sets off this little war? And I think that part decided that, even if he knew it wasn't them, he said it so much tat. He decided it won't like it any more matter anymore. I appointed a new ends up with this. You know years that wasn't now. He was it not at that a long I think at most it might have been three years. long at all, dispel very heavy, an intense from for a minute, I'm you and put this like Historic EAST coast. West Coast be weights, and now you know from the perspective of twenty plus years away, its height is cards. Him remember how serious it really was. I people afraid the travel costs the coach. You know you you set up that book and so well. You know how this sort of got Rowan and then you think about what that other book end is. That's you know, basically, the rivalry between two pack in notorious Biagi, ending with the death of both artists. Do you think that their

was a sort of collective and standing in the industry. Or among artists the something had to give, Can you describe sort of what happened there? I think that only lost part. There is definitely a sense. This is getting to serious. I I don't think there was ever an actual war spruce brokered per se. I just meant that is he spectators above it went away. I think fans, but traumatized, as I know, that executives were traumatized in, and people who worked with these artists but Jack traumatized. None families were traumatize it with a system that is the big, partisan, Anti Semitism, bigger part, robot was ended up a very silly name. You entered the music industry in a late ninetys. As I understand it, this is sort of after all, just right. After all, the dusted were settled on this battle between death row and bad boy

How did everything that went down seemed changed the hip hop that followed me both creatively- and you know, commercial standpoint to came in at the beginning of the rebirth. Let's put it that way. If you want to call it that incitement to Batboy to work with and subordinate and our department and then say that there were a bunch of conversations about big all time and stuff like that, happens, but it wasn't necessarily a label that was hanging on big boy. It was watching this label, but this massive shadow of big hanging over it because it was rebuilding so now basis there now puff, has stepped into an artist role. They are signing new talent, and now knows that is the producers can about the home. Does riding up number one is not one of them alone everywhere we're coming into a new urban pop period, it was the blame arrows. The party era, I mean how did the music sound relative to what

just immediately preceding Amy was lighter tat. It was lighter and all this and what we have is wrappers, who have now brokered, really look at it oh there's a lot of money and have offered despite there's a lot soul. Is that a rapid about being on the streets and get now now you're talking about you made it out and his work? Don't roncesvalles central pay, rent hamptons? That's what it was was celebrated we made it we made it, but here was about, So, given that sort of backdrop- and I think a lot of people, you know that that what you're describing their resonates with a lot of people Much does gang culture still influence modern hip, hop or has that sailed to actually doubly haven't sailed gang ultra around. There are still artist in industry who claim one centre another. Why

not to the extent of why we're gonna go to any kind of war over there are still certain artists were if they travel to certain places. Page again was among the first to make sure that their good to come and get a pass. The move around safely. All those things still happen. The other thing is that it does not happen in the same way that in the nineties, because you have to remember that that's the Ladys Early Ninetys were in the middle of this, a different culture. The street period in more elegant balance was astronomical, and even though there is still exists, is nothing like it when Mister Crocker Epidemic, you have more people with closer connections to somebody who's again or ourselves. Drugs were in all disavow jailer back killed. Having now, we have made more distance between those things, because it is just the street isn't the same right, but it still exists man. This is amazing context.

name: Cochrane is a former music executive whose turned culture, journalist and she's our guest today on business wars, we're gonna have more coming up in just a moment. Stay with us. We get support from Nord Vp N probably known Unita Vps, but maybe you put off getting one because you think it'll be too complicated to set up, or you know peons have a reputation for slowing down your internet speed who has died for that. But let me You why I love Nord Vps first of all, is the fast we began in the world, so I'm nuts revising internet speed for better security. peace of mind that comes with that security is priceless, but I also love ignored. Bbn- is kind of like a swiss army knife for everything you do online with all kinds of feature to fix your lifestyle and needs

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Over my dead body season, three Fox Lake on Podcast or wherever you go you're pie casts, or you can an early and ad free. I subscribe. bring to wondering plus an apple pie casts or the wondering app. welcome, back, business wars. I'm David Brown and our guest today is named Cochrane she's, a former music executive turned culture journalist and we're too about death row. Bad boy ever thing: that's come since you know your name, it's difficult to talk about this battle without mentioning faith, Evans as she's often been call the first lady of bad boy, entertainment. After her brief marriage to the notorious Biagi, faith ended up right in the center of the drama

in a sense. Can you describe her involvement in this story? What people now is that, at some point, faith was saying, but not necessarily, New, delaying worrying like that, but just seen with him at a restaurant, maybe in another place, so what people We do need to remember about. Eight, though, is that she was songwriter. She was songwriter before she was even signs about ways, an artist to songwriter before she was married back again, as you know, about ready number reasons, some was still say. I listened, considering what was launched by him a big but Well, I'm a very young people who knows where her head was, to my knowledge, you'd, never really addressed it right and but what did happen was park in his pettiness. could be very pay was more than happy to make. He waited on wax and big jokingly, the one bad inner self depreciating way,

I can imagine what they had to feel like for her at the moment. To have her. It's a bee may, like I'm upon between these two men in this very public spectacle of you, know a rivalry. I do think that asylum has gone on. People have been too eager to believe the boasts a wrappers to be fact. Instead of this braggadocio lyrics so, do you think that that affected faiths own music career, I think that might have been really complicated. Parfaitement under her new career was. Does our lives have about boy? The label, not, I beg, brought her in a big, discovered her inside her. She was already high

She worked on issues for us out for Batboy, which came out and nineteen. Eighty four was also she put it. I think it wasn't her being in the studio around the time when she was introduced to big. But again her career was not depending on how did the media were true? as was all this, was going on, but really kind of like talking about her right now. Light right on one hand overlooked in the midst, though the turbulence going back and forth between east and west, but also because she was an arm the artist she was still able to come as they were moving. Now I see that arrive, or this movement is only the first story in overtime. If Kim was the one who was married to big impact was having outcome may have indifferent. Those camp fire back, lyrically and or in all, would have ended up in a situation where they have been arm beyond. you become able eyes. That's the Oda Marlena, though we here, you're gonna, be out of here. I'm outta here

and also because his arm, the Irish as it does an audience, is very sympathetic array supportive and I don't think relax man's Aubrey. Nobody did, I knew nobody. Would I heard about it we never really mad at bay. turning a blind eye from Paypal? I'm not listening anymore. Beethoven's could also be whistle immensely talented right that a day you could, it releases dismiss her out of hand. I didn't do it. Do you think, then, if someone were to say well, you know faith was kind of used in a way as a sort of a character prop in this dust up that became deadly right, What would you say to someone who said say she was one of a part I hit a mob assembly me. That's why you have to be an big has a joke raises bay, has one face: was pregnant fast, eventually have to

you don't get it to Patsy nobody's icily like making personal info. But again I wasn't like other self depreciating way. I would definitely say that people that they both used her father on academic. We see there that's not bad, they might be seen and public welfare because I was gonna, be a darts too big guy and, at the time part wasn't publicly with anybody so as not to turn around and do the same suit. So yeah I was saying, was used as a possible essay. She was the biggest prop essay. She was a pivotal prop, but I say it the escalation of any trajectory now boy as we move to be like ha ha, that's a girl up, Bruce you got here, you think of many of the women from hip ups golden age. Her faith Evans, Queen the tea for Mary, Jane, blinds still big names today, but getting to the top of a music seeing that was dominated by men that couldn't

an easy climb and what was the reality for women and wrap at that time. I might call they fight this second generation. For women and wrap the first innovation being robbed rugs hands I tabled I'm is melody, became a like you mention and see movement in salt, pepper, like that their domestic, I started early eighties. then now we're moving into these wrappers, who are proteges and actually cut a mirror images the men who discovered them. Where the men who they are introduced by right, so calm was big and small Color, sexier, home body rights he had his same flag. You know he was like this. This is my so now you have these women who answers common. Our travel

ass, the moon or about also with the men just lyrically, but also like. If you have about money, is in cars and broad and insects. About money, a luxury items in cars and many sites like what is is, is quid pro quo. I met, and that was no other say earlier. Group of women who sees were actually trying to maybe downplayed does actuality available out. It is the first time I wasn't gonna play my sexuality all the way up, and then he use it. Even now, Rosanna conversation come around again last year were cardio, making a stallion. Beware and full arrogance and connections about this am I repented was twenty years ago by night, new bad. You definitely verily where this is done. We had a personal came over Me Valley had the first box. He might you can't be serious,

We'll pick up on that, then, for just a minute, because you talking about cardi and and Megan stallion ok. So what is it that makes the careers of these women different from the ones who rose to fame? In the nineties I mean if you're gonna draw that line right, we'll back up for the vessel before before a party it her success in the last few years, though, ass, Willie Dominant, want woman. I read that we had double crossing over. It was hitting the offer to help. One hundred was Nicky, maybe had like a decade to herself no human ass, an Nicky was one of the last one. I last women's went out of one of the last rap crews, which was Cashman young money. We don't really have rap crews anymore, either so You get Clarity Party was not co signed by a male wrapper. She is her own artists.

All the things that used to be the traditional entre for women into the same. None of that none had ever an What made you don't you it's interesting how this phenomenon is amplified by? You know contemporary media. Social media is really we're talkin, that right and then you turn back the clock and you think. Well, there was no social media when big into part became hip, hop icons in a we're talking about word of mouth. Fame. Tv mix tape, trading magazines like the source. radio interview, radio interview right. You know that you have these carefully cultivated images of death row and bad boy. You wonder how they might have been different if twit, an instant gram? Hadn T had existed back there. You answer actually think had twitter as the ram exists, the back then the babe might actually have been distilled right because, put an estimate keeps a lot of things going that don't need to be kept.

For a very long time, but sellers summit of away twitter, especially kind of interjections, had a conversation, is so silly there it automatically color Some levity to whatever the real issue might be and in anything about right now, right, dynamic, now But how will be the most serious? You know her pop call for beef. We want to call it be that we see recently, but Great turned an almost into to accommodate routine light. This show beings in it are all of that and it defuse to me anything so a bit ever born beyond that, because it was also silly in all speculate. Often of work pact would have been like one sweater. I think he would Been a lot and would allow ranting. Ladies and gentlemen, you will have a negative aspects, but I think that had that existed button, it probably would it diffused things a little bit because then I think

parties are to be more interested in letting at play out on stage so that the funds can be on board, then it being a street bang which was for the record. I think Biggie always want to keep it all back and keep last. I don't think he ever wanted this. I don't think he ever really returned the venom pop. Let's from split this thing around, though I mean social media has affected a lot of music careers to how do you, thanks social media is changed the game in terms of who can actually rise to the top music, while the digital age, as of a media, has definitely removed the need for gatekeepers our move, the usefulness of gatekeepers outside has definitely allow the form are used to circumvent the need who, in our charter, cause my nose money knows my it a music played, but on the flip side it has created this constant flow of content, so their music cycles

foreign there's so much more than an immediacy and a kind of transience to music, because everything by your father's too much more femoral yeah yeah, I mean there's a large majority of people out there, especially those who have grown up industry era. Who don't understand why you should ever paper about? Did you ever right? So it's almost lead to another, the sheer quantity What's out, there is almost coming to value the music seldom even in her part right. You have powerful artists who have carried I'm as our legacy of other of a kind of purity of her part so honour on the women side we have on rhapsody, you know who's a dynamic artist. when I am in Love Kendrick so may argue that call Cardiff why things are dynamic. Entertainer all around. She knows how to review. The attitude knows how to make people

in the same, what Megan with which takes more talent, nothing people give credit for name. Are you almost sound optimistic? Am I picking up on a certain optimism, nature of him. I think we're on an obsolete, even those very frustrating to see people be full credit cool what women are doing as though any of this is new? Without any of this is truly scandalous we need twenty one, as though any of this merits pearl clutching also do in on a theme, more women on its rights in all this decided they can only be one has been dispelled honour where it came from My inner noses idea there like a scarcity in terms of consumers and endlessness ship that think his away in terms of women in her up and women in the music business in general, a unfortunately in all,

is going to long be considered in this, isn't just I have this music best in general Stilton said our common like a boy's club and it is still hard, no matter who you are unease egg. It aside on our side on the management, sad took on a whole, the same weight in the world, but I think that people are conscious, darting mister take stock and never really get some acknowledgement of like oh you know. We can't make the excuse that consumers don't want it cuz. I really wanted. You can't make the excuse that this wouldn't work. It clearly works. We just need to give it a shot. So hopefully we continue to see that name. Cochrane is music and culture rider and a former music executive who help build the careers of some of the biggest names and music. And follow her on twitter at still name. That's S tea. I l l in a I m, a.

My thanks so much for joining us on business. Thank you MA. Am you name it from wondering this is episode: seven of death row versus bad boy records for business wars, I'm euros David Brown, Kelly, Kyle, produce this episode, cure and low. Is our senior producer and editor attitude and produced by Emily Frost. Sound designed by Kyle, win. Kate Young is our associate producer. Dave shilling is our producer, our executive, users are Jenny, Lauer, Beckmann, marshalled, created by or Non Lopez. One.

They all is the bare Midland hosts of the podcast said it straight myths and legends. Every week we sit down with the biggest stars of country music to explore the legends and more from country music. History try to get to the bottom of what really went down check out. Our latest episode streaming now on Amazon, music.