I'm David Brown, and this is business wars. Today. We conclude our series Harley and the biker wars, the milwaukee- This company is an american legend, but it's fought hard for that title. Fending off level, companies, bankruptcy and even the Hells Angels Harley Day since survived government trust, busting and the onslaught of sleeker and cheaper japanese bikes made by Yamaha and Honda. Biker riots world wars.

Tions and depressions. You name it. This company seen it all. Hundreds of motorcycle company, come and gone, but it's Harley Davidson that has stood the test of time. It's heavy out bikes came to embody freedom and the I can dream in the past few years Harley has seen its ridership dwindle baby boomers once the large generation of die hard hog fans. There recently aging out of the sport today buyers want sleeker, lighter and cheaper bikes. The open ease, often been criticized for not changing with the times, but this fall, it is set, publicly released its first electric motorcycle, the Livewire. It's a huge shift for the century old. It goes from zero to sixty in three seconds, making it the fastest Harley Davidson ever. It's also the first global motorcycle brand to make an electric bike, but question is well: it's bet, pay off

our guest on today's episode is Bradley: Brownell he's a contributor to Jalopnik dot com and sadly recently got a chance to test drive. Harleys Livewire will talk with Bradley about his test. Drive As well as the larger electric motorcycle market and the future of the industry, business wars is brought to you by the capital. One Walmart rewards card. Five percent back at Walmart online, two percent at Walmart in store restaurants and travel and one and everywhere else You want all that you need the capital, one Walmart rewards card. What's in your wallet terms and exclusions apply. Bradley Brownell welcome to business wars. Thank you for having me you've gotten to something of a part of history. I know that you test driven Harley's new, live wire, which is the cutting edge of Harley Davidson. How do you feel It was a very exciting I mean it did feel like the future

it was uhm, something completely different from anything. Hardly is done before, and it was a blast. Party is well known for having a particular kind of feel. That's, unlike any other motorcycle, it's big! It's burly, it's heavy you! You can feel the vibrations of the engine and that's intentional when you get on Livewire is. It feel like a Harley in a way, but in others it doesn't so stylistically, they attempted to add something of like the peanut tank sports stir to that cover. On top, where you know at gas tank would normally be There are a few things like the switch gear and the mirrors that are it over from other Harley models there. Obviously still using the belt drive and that was intentional because they've been using that since the 1980s, but everything else feels completely different. You know you've got this is their their there bike. It's got the

lean over angle of any bike that Harley's ever produced its their quickest bike. That they've potentially ever made with a three point. One second, zero to sixty yeah, so the live wire weighs about five hundred and fifty pounds without a rider that is a little heavier than other street fighter style bikes. You know, you've got two triumphs and Ducati's and that type of thing those are in the four hundred and fifty to five hundred range. So it's not that much heavier, but it is noticeably different but otherwise it feels like something entirely new there's not much Harley DNA in this bike I mean Harley engineers have been working on it for over a decade and they definitely did turn out of home run, but it doesn't feel like anything they've done before. In fact, if you squint or maybe, if you were a little bit, I don't know nearsighted or something it would look. A little bit more like a japanese bike, wouldn't you say yeah yeah

You can say that for sure, or at least an Italian, I see a lot of like Ducati Streetfighter in it or something like that yeah. It definitely is a very rider forward. Sporty ride experience, something that's completely foreign to the Harley lineup. It's interesting. I remember seeing the first Youtube Zan doesn't sound anything like that, potato potato potato that you get with the Ov twins, yeah It's true it sounds as I would describe it a little bit like George Jetsons Car, it's gotta. Gear wine with you can hear. The belt drive, you can hear the brakes working here. The tires on the road. But there's not a lot of engine noise, and this is actually the second development of the live wire engine or motor? They had a different motor before,

that they use, and they you know, as technology has advanced they've, moved to a different style. So this production ready, one, is very. Right you, you say that has this this gear wine to me, it sounds like a yeah. There is a bit of that. I mean it's. It's a ninety degree bevel gear coming out of the electric motor an going to the drives to drive sprocket for the belt drive. And so that ninety degree bevel is creating a lot of that noise and two Harleys credit they engineered in some of that noise to that to that gear. So it's intentional that it sounds like a jet engine, I'm sure yeah but about the range I mean. That's. What has a lot of people sort of anxious about jumping on board to the future, two quick sure sure yeah. It's I mean it's not going to be a long distance touring bike. It's not going to be your! You know

Bmw that you hop on the highway and run for two hundred miles. The range is not awesome, but it is, I think, and uh I actually rode to the studio today on a indian scout bar, and that has a range of about ninety miles, which is more or less about the same as what the live wire would be You know in regular everyday. Yeah. Maybe all this hoo ha about ranges. I don't know, maybe but you do about nothing, but I think this gets it larger issue that sort of underpins a lot of the stations that we've been having. As we've been exploring. You know Harley versus rest of the world, and that is hardly Dave. Sin has forever been taking on challenges to its to its title, back. In the day, the force, India, Indian, was different sort of contender, but

today's Harley is by many descriptions in trouble. What's going on under the the bar and shield, well, I think it's indicative of what's going on. In the whole motorcycle industry and sales new new bike. Sales are down in general got more riders than ever, which is a statistic. That's been put out by d: that's there. There's more people with motorcycle licenses than ever before, but there are fewer bikes sold every year so so a lot of people are writing. Older bikes, they're buying used bikes that are buying scooters. That type of thing, but new motorcycle sales are just down across the board. Well, I wonder how much of this has to do with the global population sort of trending toward urban living. I mean you hear Hardy's current ceo, Matt Levatich is saying that he wants to focus, meeting the needs of that urban demographic. I thing

Hardy motor is sort of rangy big beefy. Long cruising machines. Right absolutely is it is, are we are? We are we looking at? I mean well huh We be able to stand out and be successful with this live fire strategy. You know that bike cost thirty thousand yeah, There's a few things there. For one thing, I think that their strategy of focusing on urban environments is maybe a little short sighted, because the charging infrastructure just isn't there. For the most part, we're going to be charging in their own home garages. Zero, If you live in New York City- and you don't have garage chances are you're not going to be able to just rock up to you know some parking place and charge up until that infrastructure? Is there I'm not sure that it will be an urban bike, but uh suburban to maybe commute into urban traffic and being electric, it's

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They already kind of see, especially the more modern fuel injected bikes with catalysts. In that type of thing, those are already much more fuel efficient and much more pollutant free than driving a car. There are always especially enthusiast community, there are always those who completely disregard it and don't really care and they ride bikes because they're enjoying themselves, but I guess you're not really talking about the guys who sort of dress up like pirates on the weekend, and you know what I'm I'm sure with the with the patches in the big heavy leather jackets and this the live. Fire is not made for that crowd and it seems like the live, fire is more than a tacit acknowledgement that something fundamental is changing in the typical maybe not just Harley rider but motorcycle rider. Absolutely

I think that's entirely. The case you've got a Harley has acknowledged that their existing consumer base is getting older and It's hard to continue to market to a you know, for lack of a better word disappearing target market. So they've got to change fundamentally, who the company is what the company stands for? Yeah they I have this long haired that they can pull from, but there is a wholesale change in what people want out of a motorcycle and continuing to play to that existing market clearly isn't an operable strategy for them. So I see that they're targeting well to do suburbanites. You're. Looking at your doctors, lawyers, accountants, that type of thing, because to be fair, a thirty thousand dollars toy. Is a lot of money for the average Joe, so

they're they're, targeting probably in my eyes, the same kinds of people that were early adopters to a Tesla zero. I think that the kind of coming out in a similar fashion, where there putting a recognizable name on a sort of fringe product, an marketing it as the neck, new big thing, so it is the future and you have to get doctors on board and in order to turn that profit, they they have to charge a high price for it. So yeah, and when you consider I mean there, there definitely other sport bikes out there that are thirty thousand dollars and people don't seem to have that much of a aversion to paying those prices. You know what I hear you saying and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I get the sense if I read between the lines that what Harley strategy

about is not so much that they're banking on kind of the environmentally friendly motorcycle. What it seems they're doing, is they're looking for that next demographic that will buy motorcycles and they assume that those individuals are. Be younger they're, going to be For environmentally conscious shall we say, and that will have a premium unto itself sure yeah and and realistically you're looking at something that is a tech toy, if you're the type by that goes out and buys the newest Imac and the newest Iphone or you know, we have name brand appliances and you have fancy tech things that you show off to all your friends. If your refrigerator door has a big connect, into the internet on it, then maybe, the kind of guy that would be interested in a live wire 'cause. It is a window into the future. Nice but you're saying well what about Ducati or Triumph for Honda? I mean

they were content back in the old days to let Harley sort of blaze, the trail in and then they came, and did their own thing and in many respects kind of fine tune. What Harley did Ducati had its own twin so did try although they had a parallel twin Honda, took that big cruiser thing and made it a four cylinder and and turned turn the motorcycling world upside down. What Harley's competitors doing are they involved in the eevee or electric vehicle space? Well I mean there are a bunch of manufactures that are developing their own evey bikes right now. Honda has some offroad bikes that are in the prototype stage. Ducati says that they've got an electric bike, that's ready to launch any day now, but I haven't heard anything about it. In about six months there are eggs sting players in the electric segment you've got: zero in northern California and you've got an urgent in ITALY. Those are the two most aligned with what's going on with the live wire

and there are a few other friends ones out there that are less well known, but there's is to be a lot of hype about electric motorcycles and this being the the way forward. So I think there are a lot of manufacturers that are, if not just exploring already working on bikes for the the electric market now you've actually written it. I wonder: do you think that electric bikes- and you say it's the future, but what's holding it back, I mean? Is it. Adjust. The availability of charging stations is at the range is it something I mean if it were just about speed and torque. These bikes have a lot of speed and a lot of torque, so so so, what's keeping it from just exploding, I think that charging infrastructure is definitely one of the things that people are concerned about. It's still reasonably difficult, go on a road trip on of wire or even in an electric car charging times is one thing

but people seem to be civil, the concerned about personally, I'm not, but when you get a charging time, especially in the case of the live wire. It's forty minutes to eighty percent so if you are on a ride and you stop for quote unquote fuel to to charge. You're, probably going to want to get a bottle of water, go to the bathroom. Those kinds of things get a stretch in anyway, so you're already looking at twenty to thirty minutes stationary. So what's another ten per only that's? That's my thinking of it, but there are. There are people that are concerned about that. They see forty minutes to refuel or to charge up and they get turned off. You know it takes five minutes to put gas in it. The live wire is not going to be something that you take off on an adventure on its more of a commute to work couple of days a week, and save some money on fuel. You know it it's funny, though, because as you say that I think to myself

I know a lot of people get into motorcycling, though not Becaus they're, looking or a lighter way to commute a lot of people get into it, but cause of a kind of mythology, a kind of fantasy. I mean Harley Davidson Rd Back fortune on a wave of nostalgia right and there was this idea that in a way when you bought a Harley Davidson, you were buying in James Dean and Juke boxes and rock and roll and all of that and the question it seems, for the motorcycle industry. As I hear you talking about, it is not so much a practical question. As you say it's about you know. These are these: are toys yeah, sure I don't have to have a motorcycle that ill at least four large segment. This is a this is about buying into a into a mythology or a cool factor. Yeah I mean for the majority of people out there, motorcycles don't make any sense I was asked my mother. If she

buy a motorcycle. She would. She would put it her feet and say no way an but those of us who ride know what it feels like you know it. It's a the wind in your hair. It's the that crazy feeling of being- almost flying, but on two wheels? So there's nothing about a motorcycle purchas, that's rational! Your looking at this through the eyes of I want this. Not I need this so yeah I don't think anyone needs a live wire, but you crazy if you ride it and don't want it. For for business? Wars comes from T mobile for business. We know business is changing fast people, collaborate from the corner, coffee shop to the corner office, they take more calls from living rooms and lobbies in conference rooms in cubicles, and they try

all over the world to create things that never before existed. That's why T Mobile includes data and texting in over two hundred countries and destinations at no extra cost? learn more at t, mobile dot, com, business. Just looking at the live wire in the Youtube videos and reading what you've written about and what others have written about it. It sounds really tantalizing. But I wonder whether or not these bikes weather from Harley or eventually from Ducati and Honda and Triumph, and others will ever inspire that same sort of electric pardon, the pun, that same sort of electric desire that.

A rumbling v twin engine or or some big dis, large displacement, gas powered engine does I mean there is something- and I know you felt this something about seeing those the mirrors shaking you know about it's not just that. It's not just the wind in your hair, but that there's something this role happening at the smell of the gasoline for sure is exciting. Yeah I mean. I think there's always going to be a place for internal combustion engine motorcycles, whether or not it's a vintage Someone has restored or, if they're still available new in the future, I'm not you know, I can't predict the future, but yeah, it's a. It is a different writing experience, but I think that it's it's on par with or or equal to the this All of writing. An internal combustion engine bike there is just something there that

you can ride through the forest and you can hear the birds chirping and I can hear your tires. Stripping on the asphalt- and you can hear the brakes when grabbing, when you're going down into the corner- and you can see it- like you- sure- the shift in the electric motor when it goes from power deployment to region So, there's a lot of stuff going on that, even though it's not that loud v, man or four cylinder or whatever it is still a deeply Vista, feeling. You know I'm wondering if maybe there needs to be a kind of easy rider, type film or something you know Peter Fonda passed away not that long ago, but it's hard to ignore it's hard to ignore the fact that Captain America motorcycle stuck in the minds of,

entire generation and that generation happen to be the one that brought a Harley Davidson back into its glory days. Yeah yeah, I mean. Maybe what do you think I mean does it is? Is it possible that that the electric recycle, can inspire that same sort of obviously not not nostalgia, but that same sort of excitement. Yeah. I think it's perhaps the reverse, instead of nostalgia, you're, seeing what could be what is coming this is something that's different than anything that's ever been around before, or I mean there have been other electric bikes in the pasture where you're trans yourself into another world where everything is quiet and clean. The great thing about this bike is that there's there's no shifter, there's no clutch, there's no you're, never in the wrong gear. So especially on some really great back country roads. I mean you're, not you're, not going to

downshifting too far, and and locking up your rear tire or anything like that, which is a total noob move. But you know we all make thanks but be always in the right gear is great because you're at the corner, apex you're just worried about your lean you're just worried about focusing on what's on the road ahead, it takes one extra thing off of your mind and allows you just hammer down it's a totally different experience, but still totally cool in theory. This should be great for the motorcycling industry Writ large right. I mean if People talk about how some millennials and I don't want to feed into the stereotypes, but at aversion to risk a lot of younger people don't even like to to drive anymore. I mean there's got to be something that would appeal in it sounds like a device that is environmentally friendly. That's easy to!

Ryder, certainly easier than its predecessors, to write. All of that adds up to good. At least it would seem like for the motorcycle tree at large, and not just Harley Davidson, I'm not sure that's an aversion to risk. I think that especially for I mean I am a millennial. My generation has had financial risk. On the mind, especially since two thousand and eight yeah, so perhaps they haven't seen motorcycles as being a worthy investment or something to that interesting that they should spend their money on. But as my generation become, you know where well into our professional, here's these days, I'm in my mid 30s. We are, we have maybe some. Extra money laying around that we could afford to spend parleys monthly? this thing is probably going to be around five hundred dollars, which sounds like a lot, but it sounds

is a lot less than thirty grand when you put it in that perspective, so yeah. I think that there is as this electric thing becomes the mainstream. I think it will be good for the for the motorcycle industry for one thing: it'll be cleaner and you'll attract people who are concerned about that type of thing, and Another thing: it's quieter and cities are already too loud as it is, and for a third thing, it's expensive to operate. There's you know you. Don't have to change the oil you don't have. To I mean you do, but not nearly as often right we don't have to do valve adjustments, or you know, there's fewer movie parts so you're not wearing things out as quickly so yeah there's a potential for something like this in the future. To be, economical way to get younger into motorcycling, and I think this is the first step on that line. You know this is the way,

point right now, where we've moved maybe pass the early doctors or were in the late stage of early adopters and it's about to go mainstream. The infrastructure, as I said earlier, is the the main hurdle for that. If you can charging into the cities where You can charge overnight on a street lamp or something like that. That might be the big thing that pushes it over the edge. I like that idea. That's a that's! A pretty interesting idea was so what do you think? Are we in fact, at a turning point, Or is this a lot of hype designed to sort of recapture or rekindle youthful excitement in an industry that might have run out of steam. What do you think? I think it's uh mixture of the two. I think there is a lot of hype behind this that unless it is followed up with a second act that

makes things a little more, affordable and and more mainstream, which Harley deadly does say is coming. There's no word not when, but then it could all be just hype, but if we can deliver not only on the live wire, but on follow ups and turn around the image. As being only for old, fuddy duddies. Then there could something there for the brand, and I think that It is a piece of their long term strategy. That makes a lot of sense to me, Bradley. Brownell is a motorcycle enthusiast and an automotive journalist who lives in reno- and I understand, is something of a self professed collector of the awful automobiles as well yeah yeah, that's for another time, Bradley's been a real pleasure to get to say hello to you thanks so much for spending some time with this on business. Thank you. So

much for having from one this is business. Wars sure hope you enjoyed this episode and coming up on our neck series we're flying in from the top rope with a look inside professional wrestling. Before world wrestling entertainment WWE was the dominant name in sports entertainment, most professional wrestlers, part of regional promotions with strict geographic boundaries that is until one promoters stepped in to shake up the wrestling world and demolish the status quo. The one and the only Vince Mcmahon we're going to explore how Mcmahon built his world Wrestling Federation empire and the war he waged on his biggest competitor, W C w that's coming up next on business. Wars get get business wars

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