Business wars is brought to you by the capital. One Walmart rewards card earn five percent back at Walmart online, two percent at Walmart in store restaurants and travel, and one but everywhere else when you want to that you need the capital one Walmart rewards card. What's in your wallet terms and exclusions apply. Quandary I'm David Brown and this is business wars, today we conclude our series, Facebook versus Snapchat without two point

billion users worldwide. Facebook is the undisputed king of social media, but after some brutal scandals, the social media behemoth actually saw its user base decline. According to a survey earlier this year by the research from Edison, there were an estimate fifteen million fewer users of Facebook in the USA than in twenty seventeen. Meanwhile, despite Snapchat's meteoric rise, company did experience a couple of rough years where its user base in stock price plummeted. The company is taking a term for the better of late, but she never know what hot new company is going to pop up next. In fact, it may already

if you can believe it as big as Facebook is and is rapidly as Snapchat is grown. There is a new social media darling that is taking the world by storm any guesses. Yet it's called tick. Tock tick. Tock is a video based app where users create and share short clips, and it's one of the fastest growing social media platforms. The world has seen in recent years, the company reports having five hundred million active users across the globe and is already clocked a billion downloads. It even surpassed Facebook owned in ram last year and a half download our guest today is Natalie rubber mat. Does that name sound familiar? Yes, she wrote hours Series Facebook versus Snapchat and she joins us to talk about the rapid rise of our next social media obsession.

That's coming up. Next support for business. Worse comes from capital, one with the cash card from capital, one you earn unlimited. Two percent cash back on all of your business purchases, think about it. Unlimited two percent cash back on everything you buy for your business and that cash back can add up to thousands of dollars, which you can reinvest back in your business. So you can keep growing. Imagine what unlimited two percent cash back could do for your business learn more capital, one com. What's in your wallet, Natalie Robe and welcome to business wars, thanks so much for taking a few minutes out of your busy day to talk with us, we appreciate it

for having me now tell us a little bit since you been sort of up to your eyeballs in Facebook and Snapchat. I mentioned tick tock. How is tick Tock any different from what Facebook and Snapchat have to offer in the social media space tick Tock is really the first knew and big competitor sent Snapchat. I would say it's really cornered these young folks. An what's different about it is that it's really centered around short videos that doesn't sound that different, but rather than being focused on kind of your friends or what your friends are doing. It has a feed that just straight up offers you things that have been delivered and add picked straight for you by machine learning to give you something that tick tock think you're going to like, because of that, it's incredibly addictive and people who find themselves spending minutes hours far too long on it, and because of that, it's grown really

I shoot with teenagers. Not let me ask you this, I mean I don't know if you're addicted to you too, I am, and I find that it has supplanted almost all of the television time that I use all the time I used to spend with television and part of the appeal is something you were just talking about how the algorithm will will pick up what it is that you seem to be interested in and then Taylor a feed. Just for you is that pretty much what to is is doing here just with shorter form, videos that Klay what tech talk is doing. So the more you use at the apt, the better suited it becomes two years. So when I first opened tech talk, for example, it was showing me a lot of different joke videos of people during tricks with basketballs and other kinda like pranks, and then folks also lip sinking to songs, but very quickly that the longer I spend it, it would notice that they.

Things that I found funny whether they were obscured dogs doing silly things or whatever and started delivering me more and more of that. So where is it? first, I was scrolling by a lot of stuff and just sort of thinking, not really for me not really. For me, it notice the things that I was actually spending time on him was actually watching and then started delivering more of those to me until I was laughing at loud looking at my phone, it's kind of scary, but here's the thing I can kind of get away with, just buying say, video I might see on Facebook or on you too, but because I'll say it will. This is educational. I mean I've seen countless numbers of Youtube videos. They We're essentially documentaries about subjects Derek subjects that I might not find anywhere else, but it's truly a femoral to have nickel twins dancing in sync core. You know, dogs, kicking built into the air repetitively, and that seems to be

what I've seen of tick tock. Maybe I haven't given, you know a fair shot, but it's like it's sort of a lot of kind of extremely ephemeral, repetitive activities that that that are shown on tech talk or it might just not giving it a fair shake. No, I would say that's a fair shake up. I think you have to really sort of think of it less as an educational thing and more as just entertainment. This is taking the place all the time that you might spend during some for pure leisure, whether its playing a video game or watching a movie this or watching a kind of guilty pleasure reality. Tv show that stick talk, and it's not trying to be anything else. I don't think that it's necessarily going to teach you something you about the world, except as an older person and all of a sudden you're learning what what young kids are doing that we've been through. It taught me well now

question who's using Tik, t, DOT, ok, and, and what do you think the the real appeal? Is there yeah I mean like a lot of new social media apps. It's early adopters were young teens, and it really definitely suits aboard teenager, who loves to be up on the the new music and loves to kind of post themselves, doing silly things with their friends. I mean we have to remember that generation, z and younger have grown up with smartphones, like they've grown up, taking pictures of themselves taking videos of themselves sending selfies to their friends. That's just how they communicate an tick is just other modes at for them to do that, and not only are these young people communicating, there also broke costing and they're they're used to broadcasting, I'm so that they're very used to sending things out into the world at to be received in viewed in reacted to by others, and that's exactly what

it's a tick tock. Is there a time limit on Tictoc? I remember when vine was a thing that was rather short lived, but but but it was a it was a red hot moment when vine was happening and Even today you can find vine strung together into longer form videos and it's to me like there's a similar sort of almost overlapping appeal now you're exactly right, I think I'll I'll. I think the tech talk has taken the place of fine and a lot of ways. I'm fine and really loyal users who really loved and were very sad to see go on, and yes, so so where's with fine. It was focused on six second videos: a tick tock expand tick, Tock, expanded that to fifteen second videos, but they can be strung together for a total of sixty seconds to a minute. Sixty seconds. Does it say anything about a relative attention spans or is that being too cruel

I you know I'm I'm, I'm not the best instead studying that or during during the academic research on it, but I think it definitely does reflect sort of the shortening attention spans of of people who are used to being on the internet. All day I mean most people spend you know three seconds on, web page? So they used to digesting things incredibly quickly and digesting a huge amount of information and a huge amount of media so yeah. It makes sense that it's coming in by size chunks. Well, as you were, writing about Facebook and Snapchat one of the important aspects of of the rise of Ruth was how you monetize this thing. How do you make money from it, and I guess

my question for you when it comes to tick, Tock, where's, the revenue stream. Here, that's a good question. I think that's something that's still developing for the company right now there in that phase that all startups kind of go through, where they're just growing uses and growing as much as they can so to talk right now is have more than a billion downloads, and it's usually international, which is an interesting thing. Quarter of the of the of those billion downloads are in India loan. I it was as a parallel act in China could Dorian and both tech talk and and Dorian are owned by this parent. Chinese company could bite danse. So you know the one thing that they do have is an incredible amount of data and information on their users, so they know what their use is like and they know what they watch and because of that they're going to be able to deliver that the post tell

tailored and targeted ads to those users. I wonder why you were talking or singing. I wonder why it is the tick tock seems be enjoying this relative success, whereas in we were mentioning you know just a few moments ago. Vine didn't seem to get traction, or is it too early to talk about the success of I don't think it's too early to talk about its success, but I I think we're gonna have to wait and see at for its longevity. I mean we're we're not quite sure where tech talk is going to end up. One thing that is interesting about tech talk is that it it doesn't exist in a in a vacuum. It actually swallowed another app that was very, very and very successful. Could musically I'm it acquired musically, Indiana November two, seventeen and officially finished combining that with it with tick tock. In

twenty eighteen, I'm so musically was another. You know short form video. It was like fifteen seconds. It is mostly teenagers lip singing sinking along to songs and and doing dances to them, and so that that that had to kind of blowing people away by how quickly I had grown. I remember reporting on musically at the time and it was being seen as a you know, an an incoming competitors to Snapchat and the like, instead of the the new thing, but that we would take talk swallowing up musically it was able to kind of clear the stage and take center stage. I guess you know it's funny. You should mention musically, because that would really sticks out in my mind. I have a at the time he's a preteen and all of his friends were trying this new app. Musically and the way that my son pitched it to me to in order to. Get permission for me to let him know download the app he said. Well, all the kids are like creating songs

creating music and I thought how wonderful kids, creating music and it turns out that, yes, as you were, describing a lot of them were sort of lip syncing to other songs, but what's more, and this is something that I found out later. I'm so glad that that I was a little over protective. I guess I didn't let my download the app because I heard a few rumors that that musically was use it collecting the names and email addresses and all of this from users who are under age. Thirteen, and this ultimately became a big problem for musically right, absolutely so yeah. Actually they they had to settle well take talk at since it acquired musically had to settle a big fine

with yet with the FTC for this exact thing? So, as you said, they were collecting information on users under the age of thirteen without their parents permission, I'm and yeah I mean that's. That's the scary thing about a social media or a platform that is used by young kids is that we we really I don't know who I where the information is going in and who they're interacting with, and I think there were some early settings on musically where you could kind of see other musically users who are in your area and things like that and it you know there were. There were sort of I conditions and concerns that kids were being targeted. You know in in the various ways by people who weren't children themselves. I'm so I mean all all of that is is very scary and is definitely something that you know. Parents have to have to bear in mind with these apps so so his

tick Tock tried to address these in any any. A positive way I mean. Have they tried to change their rules? Who can who? Who, who you can't sign on to tick tock? I think tech talk is addressing it on it on it kind of case by case basis, in summer, like India, where I mentioned they have a huge number of uses in are incredibly popular. They were actually and it, for I think it was to do with Indian governments concerned that child was being kind of proliferated on tick tock. That ban was lifted two weeks later, uh after you know, take talk, promise to put in a bunch more content moderators and to invest a lot more in India, Tick Tock in India, but I mean

There are other things that I've actually been: three deaths, tick, tock related deaths in India, where people have died while trying to film tick talks, whether that's kind of being on the train tracks- or you know try to fit three people onto a scooter or or something like that. So yeah, it's it's it's it's concerning, but I mean at the same time it's already grown to talk is already grown, so bank I'm an and that service. What reminds me of and connects it to this, this face, progresses Snapchat story, I mean we, we ended the story sort of looking at and thinking about government regulation on these giant social media platforms, and I think that's just a question that we're going to have to struggle with again and again, both with tech. Talking with whatever is the next Tik Tok, business wars is brought to you by Doordash

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and in fact they were encouraged to copy it, but because there was no sense in reinventing the wheel seem to be Zucker Berg's philosophy. What about the response to tick tock? Well, you won't be surprised to learn that Facebook released a tick, tock, competitor or copycat cat, cold, yeah yeah that he felt it didn't work out like some of those other facebook on Snapchat copies, the soccer Berg kind of pushed out, I mean it looks like it take talk, is competition to Facebook, so you know, Zuckerberg has already come out and his whole thing is free speech on that. Facebook is super important to free speech, so he's come out and been critical of within the last week of tech. Talk saying: isn't it crazy that there have been no images of the Hong Kong protests on tech? Talk where

does protester being you know, really brought costed across Twitter and Instagram and Facebook, and he sort of saying this isn't the kind of internet that we want. We want a free internet, we want. We want one, an internet, that's not censored, and he's really attacking bite done. Stick talk, parent company with that statement, as I mentioned previously like bite danse. Has this tick tock a chinese specific version of Tik T, ok could doyenne in China that is heavily censored and kind of only has sort of eight okayed media on it. So yeah I mean fate. Facebook really considers tech talk. I am to be. If to be a threat, I would say it see like what what he's sort of doing is. He wants to take the high road on free speech and and turn this into a debate over, I guess would be sort of the morality of a platform that would permit itself

to be censored. I guess that's what he's that's, how he's trying to distinguish Facebook yeah, I mean, and and that's exactly that's exactly it he's he's really taken a lot of heat for deciding not to censor Facebook's content and a lot of ways and saying that you know Facebook has to be a place where all sorts of opinions, even if they're wrong or factually inaccurate or really troublesome, can look, can live in, and some people profoundly disagree with that, but yeah that that's his that's. How he's positioning Facebook is as kind of the the champion of, free speech and that's how he's going to target tech talk, is by saying you know what they're censoring everything Snapchat, on the other hand, is taking kind of a a a a different road and and truly

to take the high road, although it's still taking a dig at face, but by doing so in saying that this is a private place again it we will protect your privacy where place for just you and your friends is no fake news here. That's that's not chats whole limo right now. I wonder I mean I guess intelligent people can disagree about this, but in an ideal world we're talking about a balance that needs to be struck between? You know the billions of people who use these platforms, their security, their rights, and, of course, the immense power that these companies have over their experience. Is this something that oh exactly? You think it will be up to the government or governments? to mediate. Or is this something that the companies themselves

will be doing on their own? Do you think? I think I mean. Obviously this is my personal opinion, but I think that is something that the government should be doing. No company is going to regulate itself in a way that isn't in the best interests of that company in its share huh. If it's publicly traded. If Facebook is in charge of its own regulations, it's going to regulate it's going to set regulations that benefit Facebook and her its compare is so that's why we need government bodies to really step in and step up and catch up. Frankly, like these come so big already it's going to be really hard to seriously regulate them in the way that, in the way that we need to, I think going forward. It already feels too late. In some ways. Facebook already feels as though it's got too much going on, I'm not Billy on the world with two point: four billion users. I mean that's insane, so I don't know I mean it's definitely going to be interesting

No one's forcing anyone to use Facebook or Snapchat or tick tock, much less tip tick, tick. Tock! Really I mean what what argument. The government needs to intervene at all here if, if there is, if there is a threat to to society. People have the choice to turn it off The way they do television. I can. I can certainly hear many a libertarian agreeing with no I'm kidding. You know, I think I think the thing is that these these roots in the power of these companies goes far deeper than people know. I mean

how Facebook, I guess new users- is by a sort of spreading the internet in in developing countries and then part of giving folks internet access. It requires them to also sign up for Facebook account, which is slightly I troubling. I would say I'm and then the other thing is that they're they're they are sort of controlling criticism of themselves. In some way, there is a major think tank that was partially funded by Google. I'm one of that think tank put out. Some research was heavily critical of Google and Google pulled its funding. Of of that think tank I mean the the sort of bodies that are able to. I it kind of criticize these these networks are becoming fewer and fewer. I would say, particularly because of how much money they've taken out of print advertising and digital advertising from pulp

where journalism used to be the place where people would critique these these. I can you know companies, you know. Facebook, an Amazon and Google have swallowed up all those ad dollars and all of that power in doing so, and so. Many journalists have been laid off as a result. So yeah it's very complicated and goes goes much deeper. Seems to have arrived on the scene rather quickly and lots of people love it. I'm just curious s, someone Natalie who has studied these big companies for you. What is it take for a social media platform to hook you and keeping I mean what is the special sauce that makes one platform a success

and another one, not so much. I think it has to start with young people. It has to be something that appeals to young people, an that is addictive and interactive. So for tick tock. I think that's these short videos that are quick to consume and quick to make, most importantly, but also they have a reactionary element in that you can just click right on one of those videos and reply to it. I'm it's arranged with hashtags and because of that people can, I you know, do a competitive dance or join the X Y and Z challenge. Whichever challenge of the day is is trending. I am because of that it becomes real

addictive and apart people's everyday lives, I think that's kind of what's necessary to make it as a social media network. You have to become part of people's everyday lives. These are not unintelligent people who have put together this social media platform, ditto snapchat an now tick tock and you think well, ok, given the intellectual firepower, the knowledge of of the marketplace. They would all

to understand just how sensitive people are about data collection, privacy. That's something else. That's that's, that's clearly a concern. Why do you think these companies are having such difficulty striking a balance? Yeah? It's a that's a really! That's a really, really interesting question and, and one I I don't know the answer to I mean if what my my first reaction is that I think it it really has to do with the fact they were in kind of an uncharted territory. I mean before Facebook. I you know that there wasn't a social media platform on that there just wasn't one I had gotten as big or as quick or hedge hedge really collection is my.

Data. I'm an I. You know. I think that in some ways, perhaps they've gotten in over their heads and they've sort of collected, more information or or grown far bigger than they than they ever planned to in some cases of and- and you know now, they're having to to realize that folks feel very strongly about their privacy in about their data and they're. Having to kind of react react far too late in some ways I I don't think they necessarily had a plan of full of this. They were just trying to

to grow and grow users, and then to make money. Are you comfortable using social media? I mean? Are you a facebook user of the year? Do you do you? What's your favorite? I you know I use Instagram, which of course is Facebook owned very frequently, because it's where my friends are- and you also whether I'm comfortable using social media. No, I'm not, but it's sort of become a necessary evil in a lot of ways at a professional, necessary evil. In that you kind of have to have a twitter, and you have to have a digital footprint. You have to have a facebook and whatever else so that you can promote your work because we are in an era of kind of self for cost and self.

Motion, so you need all of those things. Even if I sort of hate I mean you got to know, the young people sense that any and they've been leaving Facebook in droves. This is not a new phenomenon and, as you've been describing, they've been going to places like tick tock, and I just sort of wonder I know you, but I happen to know some people who only in age in social media vicariously they hire someone to take care of their social media for them right I mean and that's a dangerous thing to do, but some people do and to me that's sort of speaks to how these platforms and become sort of advertisements for oneself. As you say, you can't you can't be off of social media all together, but in a way they become about self promotion, at least for adults and I wonder as you've, researched and written this series. Do you have a say what direction we're going with in terms of

Now we will ultimately use these platforms, I mean, have we reached a kind of I don't know a place where we can say: oh well, the future of Facebook is x or you know the future of tick. Tock is why or is it still too early too early date? I think it's too early days for some things. Like tick tock. I think I think, for companies like Facebook we're only going to see them become more and more

more integrated out, whether it's through payment processing, which they already do or you know, and any number of services they might offer. But I I do think that social media is only going to continue to play a bigger role in our lives and it's interesting. You brought up folks who have their social media managed by other people. I mean I live in LOS Angeles and that's a very, very common practice for plenty of actors and musicians, because truthfully, like your social media, your facebook or Instagram, it's a it's a walking resume. I so you want it to look good in and you need it to be active and up to date, but that can be taxing and turning to do yourself. But you know I, I think we're getting more more more to the point where, especially if you're a creative person, people any girl,

Look at your instagram. They don't go to look at your personal website to see your work on and I think that's gonna gonna happen more more Natalie Rebel, bad road. Our series on Facebook versus Snapchat Natalie this been so much fun to to explore with you. Thank you so much for taking time to speak with us on business wars. Thank you for having me from Wondery. This is business wars, coming up on our next series: Halloween, yes next week. So what better time to talk about candy, and in particular and Chocolate Milton Hershey tried and failed countless times before, perfecting the art of those milk chocolate, candy bars. We love today to say nothing kisses, but when a fellow candy maker named Frank, Mars, makes a deal for Hershey to supply chocolate for his popular milky way bars. Well, it sets off a battle candy domination, join us chocolate wars, Hershey versus Mars, can't get

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