Rum wondering this is business wars. I'm David Round joining us now is Stephen Johnson he's the best selling author of ten books, science, technology and the history of innovation, including the ghost map where good ideas come from and wonderland, and you may also remember him as the hosting co creator of the EMU word winning PBS series. How we got two now he's been named by prospect magazine is one of the top ten brains of the digital future. Hey Stephen welcome great to talk with you thanks so much for taking a few minutes out too to speak with his oh yeah. Well, it's great big fan of business for services. This is done.

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What this is really exciting. Tell us a little bit about american innovations in what the big idea is will itself it looked back at innovations that really transform the world and in various ways some of them got scientists break through some of the more technological breakthroughs and we have it it similar to business wars and the sensitive. You know you're talking about these extraordinary stories with really interesting people, and there is a sense of kind of drama behind these ideas, but were also talking about the environments that made these breakthroughs possible in a union. A learned about science in the history of technology.

But also some really extraordinary lives and with what ways. What is your passion? Forgive me for interrupting, but what is your passion here? It is it. Is it more the histories of everything that is, you know, that's all I've written all these crazy books on all these different topics, from cholera epidemic to video game culture to neuroscience, but the thing that unites, all of my interests are really can come to the fore with this punk cast is, is new ideas coming into the world right when, when there's a new idea, there really changes things that changes the way we interpret things. It changes the way that we involve, create or communicate with each other or how we understand where we can from a like, what out of those ideas happened right? Who are the title? What kinds of people bring them into the world? What kinds of environments make those ideas possible and

that's what we really can focus on an american innovations in, and so we have these kind of six up his own kind of story, arcs. The first one is on the history of dna, our understanding of genetics and heredity, and we have other ones back of history, of space travel and flight and artificial intelligence nuclear power and Toto it's it's gonna be a great great adventure. This sounds like so much fun up. I have to ask you, though, when we're talking about those moments, those where it seems like. There's like a fulcrum right, I mean when, when things seem to be turning, so what is it exactly as it is it a person, or is it just sort of what's going on the guest of the moment. Yes, I'm a cop out answer is really that it's. That is both, but I think that's that that is true and that you have you know: they're they're, just certain ideas or technologies become imaginable at a certain moment in time because of the consumer,

your progress or scientific understanding right. So no one was inventing a light bulb in eighteen hundred, but by eighteen, sixty eighteen. Seventy there were lots of people trying to invent a light bulb without pointers. Would it be glum thinkable because of understanding of electricity and gases and various everything where necessary to be able to invent a light bulb, but there also in that that medics there are also very smart people. I would say that the loan can a rogue genius

who stands outside of you know conventional wisdom and comes over something entirely on his own. I think that is over raided. That doesn't happen as much as introducing but its, but it's often the kind of small networks of people right. It's it's not than anyone could have figured out, but it's it's in a cluster of people you know and might be if Edison in the light bulb, is a good example. You know Edison was working in parallel with about ten other people and in the United States and in Europe who are all trying to work towards this idea of a light bulb and road from their ideas. They contribute to outwit. He did. He can have perfected some of their ideas and they really all did do the inventing kind of as a group, but we always want to condense a story down into just one person and that's why things are treated. With american innovations, is to show you that it's it's. The actual story is much

can a messy earn more chaotic and they're all these Anti AIDS and battles- and you know all the stuff that's in business or as well. So I think that's that's what things I think will be interesting for folks listening. I have to ask you this, because I think that this is getting more and more attention, as we realise how accelerated history has become just Emmi. If, if you just think about the past three hundred years alone, how many innovations have come over the horizon that that at people just could not even conceive of a few hundred years ago and I'm wondering now that we're looking at artificial intelligence for example. What does the future hold when it comes to innovation? Are we talking about perhaps artificial intelligence taking us through a new era of innovation, perhaps accelerating innovation, in a way that we will. We can't possibly we haven't. Possum

imagined. Yet I mean how do you see things developing over the next twenty thirty forty years? I know exactly how they're gonna develop there. Can I tell you, or can I tell your listener, because its top secret you'd have to kill me for that exact nobody, but seriously that the artificial intelligence we re interesting? I clearly what will happen on some level is that we will have machine. We already do on some level that we will have machines as our kind of co pilot or Co. Innovators, right and it'll be collaborate. Frayed, though be certain kinds of intellectual breakthroughs will be easier for the machines and certain kinds will continue to be easier for us and we will

developed this kind of duet between machine intelligence in human intelligence. But you know when we're gonna cover some of this in an artificial intelligence or other. Theirs is incredible thing. It just happened with with Google's chess a I algorithm, where they, instead of training the chess ay with basically lessons from human just masters, they taught the air Just the basic rules of chess and had it play another, I am just simulated like of ten thousand games in an afternoon and the two eyes by playing each other and experimenting with different things developed in a grand master level skills in just a matter of hours? Basically, but they also develop techniques. So when they looked at how these eyes rashly playing the leading even understand the strategy's they retain. It makes sense to a human strategy. So the machine had evolved. A couple

a new way of being gotta just that humans hadn't stumbled across her work. That's ever gonna see more and more here, it's interesting when you were talking about them, reminded me of a story that I saw on the news wires, not that long ago about how Peters at Facebook, artificial intelligence experiments. I suppose the somebody's computers had begun to talk to each other and had developed their own language, which was was designed to supersede, or in some way avoid. Detection from humans and Facebook had to pull the plug on those computers. I found that it be fascinating, of course, and definitely not scary, no, of course not, but not do not arise in Europe, but but isn't funny that we ve been talking about this sort of disturbing vision of artificial intelligence, since at least nineteen sixty nine, oh yes, that was when two thousand

when a space on she came out right, I'm in this area and in the board of the border areas, yeah yeah, exactly exactly it's. I you know I just when the book that I just wrote, which is on the history of innovation and play and people doing things for fun and an all how that shape. Innovation, and one of the last signs in the book is talking about artificial intelligence and public will know when the computers are really. When they actually start to try and have fun and and they re like that's right. That is really a very there. You know that's a sign of high level organisms when they like hey, I just one side over them invented a game. This is really fun. Let's play this game, you know if you ve got her task, but that will be a sign that they ve entered a whole new phase that what we should look out for. Not not. You know how not opening the pod Bay doors as in two thousand and one

Sir. I can't do that day. Eight, a Stephen! I ate a MIKE degenerate here. You say your tongue, but a new book is our right. Well, I've got wonderland this book on the history of play. Just came out in paper back a couple months ago, and then I have a new book coming out in September, which were gonna talk a little bit about on the show that talks about a little bit called farsighted about long term. Thinking long term decision making- and so that's out September, four that's really exciting. That's really exciting. Have you done this podcasting before is this? Is this of new fora for you or what I did upon a kind of ten part I cast for wonderland when that book came out and that still there in them and the Itunes store as well. That was a lot of fun, but there's a great aunt em. What Stephen about this is where were partnering with some great writers as well, so that traffic signs writer SAM Keen, as is writing this dna episode, observe one three six,

that's why I've been kind of helping to shape the shows and the vision of it and things like that. But we also have some great writers, because they're just so many episodes there's no way. I would be able to write it all to myself where this is. This is really need because wondering sort of specializes in the eye the immersive yacht cast experience. You know what I'm saying so. Do you find yourself doing a lot of voices and that sort of thing, or is this a new thing for you? I I've? I haven't, really died bit of color performing when I was doing the PBS Series, but mostly I was in college, hosts Mon I'll. Try not to really embarrass myself by asking the crazy with the boy says I had to this one in the end, the first episode theirs. It there's a brief section where you have to read from some remarks at bill. Clinton did when he was introduced in the human genome project and there and then there's a little come Clinton impression that bravely brought into very subtle that its. If you listen carefully, you can hear it. I feel your pain believe so so in, Inter

of innovation. I think a lot of us think I am, and I guess I'm revealing my own bias and in part this is because of business wars. I tend to think of innovation is always being a kind of contest. I guess You know. I was listening back to where you were talking about back in the eighteen sixties. There was this idea that, yes, we can have a light There's the races on innocent yeah. Do you think that that is a requirement? In other words with every new innovation, there has to be this kind of contest, this battle for four, that next right through or am I mean- maybe that's like I say just reflecting

my own bias about this. Now I think you see that a lot and and for sure there is a lot of kind of competitive energies that run through american innovations as well. Certainly, the DNA episodes have many stories of people who are driven Vienna. They ve got their arch nemesis, who they really want to cut the published a paper first or make this rate do first, but in others publicly in the sciences are there. There is also a very important collaborative tradition there, as well and in part, because people work in a kind of peer reviewed, Open, a kind of open source mode and sciences,

posted, sometimes in the business world, where you have more proprietary technologies and strategies and so on, and so there is both competing with, but there's also building on and- and I think I would argue that the those forces are kind of equally important over the course of history of innovation that collaboration and competition in. Oh, if you have them in equal measure that probably the best recipe you mind. If I put spot here, Stephen Adieu have do you consider yourself and innovator? I mean you ruined entrepreneur or yourself. I have I have started a couple of web companies back in the back. In the day, none of them were successful enough to be featured on business wars heavily other. I could tell you some stories of you, but now

I I you know it's kind of a young man came. I can say I come about to turn fifty and I I to do start ups. You know you just have to live at twenty four seven and I've got kids and in its watches, you're just sitting around the end of June, words, you always partner within a time machine right. Who knows. Yes, everything should. I do better Everybody knows that. I know exactly what this a really exciting new series, american innovations it premiers Thursday may ten, and we are so excited to hear the that new series esteem Johnson best selling author of ten books on science technology in the history of innovation. His very latest book is old far sighted. Now it has not been released yet some of September fourth coming out on September forth, with long to tat. You can carry order and arrogant. Pre order are what it's a website, Man Stephen

then Johnson, Dotcom, Berlin, like the city in Germany, beautiful Innovations look for it check it out to your favorite place to listen apart. Guests Stephen is Delighted get say hello thanks so much for taking a few minutes to talk with this. It's it's. It's really a pleasure. The ethics of items like to be part of that under a family and keep up the great work with business horse. That's listen in a bit of the first episode capital, one a fresh take on banking. Now you can open a new savings account in about five minutes and earn five too I'm the national average begging, capital one means five times the savings toward your dream, honeymoon or five times the saving toward your family's ultimate vacation. Even five times this things toward just feeling good about saving time to make your savings goals come true. This banking re imagined. What's in your wallet.

Capital one in a member of the icy high long- and this is my brother Christian hello- we hoped to show called Life- is short say just yes, whose our guests this week, I'm glad you asked deciding how to bring it up. Our guest is bill. Nigh the after guy now the science guy. Oh my gosh, that's excite and don't worry. We clear up the bill nigh bill nigh after Guy science guy problem with Bill nigh the science guy. So if you'd like to hear that or any other fund interviews go to wonder he d come or wherever you get, your podcast subscribed to life. A short, oh! That's right! I forgot acts. A milestone for humanity. That's the title on the tv monitors at the White House Press conference. It's this summer

two thousand in the room is full of people: journalists, ambassadors scientists. This isn't a typical presidential press conference, This is a celebration. Finally, President Bill Clinton arrives and step up to the microphone warning. He starts up thanking everyone for coming. There are a lot of I profile gas present. Prime Minister Tony Blair is not here, but he is joining by video conference from either side of the Atlantic. Here, then Clinton begins to beak about the reason they are all gathered here: the reason for dramatic title on the tv monitors we're here to celebrate the completion of the first survey of the entire human genome. Without a doubt, this is the most important most one smile ever produced- humankind the human genome, a complete wreck

the dna inside Us Clinton, though, goes further. He calls the language in which God related life We are gaining ever more all for the complexity, the beauty, the wonder of most divine and sacred gift, profound new knowledge. Humankind is on the verge of gaining immense new power to heal. Genome science will have a real impact. All our alas, and even more, on the lives of our children, scientists and diplomats gathered from all over the world that day. I hope that by translating that book- finally be able to read the stories written and its pages decoding are gene and learning how our dna works will help answer some

most enduring questions in human history. Clinton does point out the dangers of this new technology. The ethical challenges humanity now faces. He suggests that challenge will require as much cooperation and hard work as the mapping of the genome itself He ends on an optimistic note, as posing closing we're gives us all worked out, we're all going to be a hundred, and fifty people were still fall in love, o people still fight about things that should have been resolved fifty years ago on occasion, this stupid things and we will all see. The unbelievable capacity of humanity to be noble.

From wondering this is american innovations, I'm Stephen Johnson in this series a look at some of the most important innovations of the last hundred years from a personal computer to nuclear power. These innovations have totally, formed our world, sometimes for good and sometimes for bad and we're gonna hear about the people behind those innovations. I've always been fascinated by these innovators, scientists, engineers, mathematicians and sometimes just ordinary people and a quest I always find myself asking is what was it about?

time or place that made the idea possible. That was a theme in my book where good ideas come from and one thing I've from some of these great innovators, is that, even when they seem to be loan geniuses. No one comes up with an idea, by themselves and they we don't do it all in one Eureka type moment just take Isaac Newton, scientists and mathematician who among the things is credited with the discovery of gravity. You might know the story about how the idea hit em, literally wealth under a tree out, that might just be a myth. But what is who is that Newton himself knew that none of his discoveries would have been possible without the work of others. He once said If I have seen further, it is Standing on the shoulders of giants throughout history that's. What innovators of tat stood on the shoulders to see. Just a little further a little differently that certainly true

in this six part serious the dynamo of the series is all about the stuff buried deep inside ourselves that make us who we are figuring out. That's net code, has changed the world and help us explain: age, old, mysteries, in fact, and I would prove to be such an important molecule- that it would quickly jumped the boundaries of Bio g and revolutionized other areas of society to creating whole new fields. Research and business from healthcare to crime, DNA has completely transformed our world in this episode, we're going to go back about a hundred and fifty years long before Bill Clinton announced the human genome project in the house to meet to scientists who, in their own way, laid the groundwork for the discovery of DNA. The story that stars cloned sheep, a room of fruit flies

and salmon sperm, but before we get to the salmon sperm it's the winter of eighteen, sixty and in a little greenhouse on the grounds of a monastery and burn out. A monk is bent over looking for green shoots in a row of plants. The Saint Thomas Monastery is in, What's now the Czech Republic, it was then port of the austrian ampler Monks here are known for being inquisitive types. Doing some experiment or another. Young monk is no exception. His name is Gregor Mendel and he can off. Be found here in the greenhouse or in one of the outdoor courtyards in one of the pots he's a tiny green shoot just beginning to push up through the soil. The first sign of life from the peace he planted only a couple of weeks earlier it still outside. But here in the war, to the greenhouse things, grow a lot quicker.

No pushes his round spectacles up its nose, shut, The greenhouse and heads over four prayers- like many of the other monks. Mendel had Joe the order precisely because it was the only way he could continuous studies Gregg or what Actually, his original name? It's a name he was given when it became a monk when it was young child local priest had reckoned something in young, Johan, Mendel, the priest went to medals parents young Johan should go to school. But for me, those family that was easier said than done. We can't afford to end of the school. But what about your daughter? You think, daughter, should study have now that wasn't likely in those days but have you saved a dowry for her? In the inn? Metals family gave most of their daughters, dowry the money in ten for her marriage,

just so Johan could go to high school. Soon after joining the monastery Mendel, became seriously depressed. Maybe it was the word, where tending to the sick and the surrounding communities. Away to was just having difficulty adjusting to life as a monk either his mood only lifted when he was sent away to the University of Vienna. He loved university, especially his statistics closets. While in Rio he's been as free time charting sunspots with a telescope and tracking tornadoes his classes to use a microscope and used it to look at pieces of plants laid out on glass sides. Examining the green cells pact together, like rows of boxes each with us, go black spot in the middle, the cells nucleus but he always seemed happiest outdoors. Thing, is bees and gardening here Turning to the monastery with renewed energy determine to do his own research at first,

He has the idea that he will study the science of plant breeding. Maybe with the goal of cream new hybrid for farmers, after all his friend, your farmers themselves and farmers by coming up with new kinds of plants and animals for hundreds of years old, trying to get something that bigger, stronger tastier than old varieties. Mendel too, I'm trying to figure out how characteristics from one generation are passed to the next, for instance, why do offspring resemble their parents. What causes that why are some treats more common than others? Mendel wasn't the first to ask these kinds of questions. In fact, they had occupied philosophers and scientists for thousands of years Two thousand years earlier, the ancient greek philosophy Aristotle had come up with his own theory. He decided sperm- must provide what he called the form of the matter. Animal information about what shape the animal taker.

Arms are legs it might have in the egg, provided the matter kind of like that play that used to shape the creature. Both males and females had a role, the female role was to supply the raw material, while the males contribution sculpted the offspring. Nowadays, we know that wrong, males and females contribute equally to their offspring straits, But Aristotle's theory is important because he was one of them first to suggest that there might be a biological explanation for what everyone knew living thing. That are related, look alike. But he was still in a minority of people who thought like this. Mystical for Susan superstitions were very much the order of the day. Would remain that way for hundreds of years. One of the more Scientific theories was known as maternal impressions. This was the

if that children were shaped by their mothers experiences while pregnant If something frightened a pregnant woman or made any if strong impression on her, then it would imprint itself on the child. This inspired a whole bunch of different folks. Is a woman who ate too many strawberries while pregnant gave birth to a child? who was completely covered with splotch e red earth marks a woman who was apparently startled by sea. Monsters gave birth to a son whose skin resembled scales and who smell like fish the church, played a role in spreading some of these stories. Bishops were The story of the sinful wife of an actor who seduced her husband backstage at a theatre performance, He that he was playing the part of Satan and was dressed in full costume at the time. The result, a child born with hoofs and horns in Gregor Mendel stay. Another popular belief about heredity was called blending. Theory

basically, this was the idea that a child's characteristics, hair, color height skin color, were literally a blend of its parents characteristics. It made a lot of sense at the time you can imagine each parents set of characteristics like a pink color being mixed together on a pallet, but Some problems with this theory, something's just couldn't be explained by blending A characteristic that seem to have completely disappeared in one generation would pop up a few generations later children red hair, were sometimes borned appearance with black or brown hair call and sometimes had short children and so on mental said to study how these characteristics were passed down through generations. He could, when he started, but his work, but eventually led to a whole new branch of science. Genetics mental goes to his superior at the monastery

Cyril now is fond of mental, but more than that he's a true, believer in the value of science, so in mental by a study one day with a research proposal. Lessons want to better understand how treats are passed down from parent to child, interesting, how you intend to do that by studying mice. I'd like to read the mice with one another. Until I have enough to see patterns I see and many mice would you need, I had hoped for red, maybe even thousands, maybe monks decide. They dont want to risk thousands of mice getting loosen the monastery or maybe idea of among closely watching the breeding habits are rodents just doesn't seem right either way it no go on the mice experiment, so many the son of a farmer, shifts his focus to plants, in particular p plants

Now this may be the part you remember from your high school biology class, but Gregor Mendel studied peace for a few different reasons. First, bees can't Poland p plants very easily, so he had more control over which plants make with which second piece grow quickly. Especially in the monasteries greenhouse its which, when he could observe several generations of peas and the span of a single year and third p plants. Several distinct, easy to observe, treats these trees are easy to categorized, sir, usually one thing or another: the stocks are either tall or short, never medium flowers or either white or purple peas, or either wrinkled or smooth yellower green there's, no in tweet. It just made everything a lot simpler lot: tighter Mendel, this the to study seven treats in peace and he begins ass pollinating plants with opposite trades. Just to see what happens, he feels notebook after Nope

with observations about its findings, the monk in the greenhouse has become obsessed with figuring out the answer to how traits are inherited, Does he know that just three hundred and fifty miles away? Another scientist, is holding the answer in his hands its January. Eighteen, sixty eight it's early morning, in a hospital in two in Germany, bearded man wearing a thick coat makes his way. Quickly along one of the corridors The hospital laundry room inside its damp and warm he looks around impatiently. Where is it? Where is it just then? the door opens and in walks and nurse carrying a basket air measure. You you startled me. I came to got the bandages myself this morning, but the basket wasn't here. Let let me see those to the nurse.

Obvious shock. He pulls the basket out of her hands and begins picking through the soil. Bandages its inventions hospital So many of the soldiers have old wounds that leak parson blood and they need clean cloth. Bandages daily Sometimes they can be washed and reused, but other times there too, filthy and thrown out trashy out back the nurse doesn't understand what he's looking for what was wrong. With the last set. What did you say? What was the problem with this last bandages we sent not fresh enough. The man is clear a bundle, advantages and is about to leave true you're studying pass, not strictly true it's. Why blood cells, I'm interested in what are you going? do with the blood cells he's half at the door now fully turns to figure out what's inside them. Unlike that he's gone.

The scientists name is Frederick measure was bandages, are going to help him discover the Chemical building block of life. If Gregor Mendel had entered the clergy in part to continue doing scientific research, then Friedrich measure was the mirror. Image measure had wanted to become a priest, but his father push to study, medicine and step in sixty eight at age, twenty four metres starts working into binging in south western many in a new natural Science Institute located inside if an old castle measures is in the basement in what had been the castle kitchen, the last? his roomy with vaulted ceilings, but with tiny windows. It dont Did much light monsieur once said the gloom reminded him of a medieval alchemists layer in this lair

works long hours at a large wooden bench, surrounded by glassware, he's dishevelled and his equipment is usually dirty, but he worked hard. In fact, works. A little too hard for his own good, sometimes occur once described. Them is driven by a demon and another commented that the impression he gave was of a person completely taken up by his inner mental activity, without contact with the outer world A few years later measure would almost his own wedding, because started a new experiment that morning and got distracted those pos covered bandages from the hospital or for one of measures. First, projects he's interested white blood cells, and he needs the bandages, because pos contains white blood cells especially interested in a structure inside the cells called the nucleus that dog that Mendel had seen through his microscope. The key for them

What sells on those dirty bandages each more monsieur washes the bandages and associate solution to get the white blood cells often then Isolating the nucleus from the rest of the cell, like it's? A peach in the nucleus is the stone at the center. First, he uses warm alcohol to dissolve the fats and limits in the cells outer layer, then, are you extract from a pig stomach to digest most other parts of the cell in the end left with a glass of white mucus? In fact lots of small nuclear stuck together Now he has his nucleus is but. Still doesn't know what they're Meda. So he sets about putting the glove through a series of tests. First, he dropped. Didn't chemicals that would break it down and dissolve it if it were a protein, but the glove white. Mucus is unfazed, then, I boiling that in salt water, nothing happens,

tries boiling in vinegar a stronger solution. Still, nothing, then really goes forward drops a glove into a solution. A boiling hydrochloric acid, wait Bob remain. Stubbornly contact in a last ditch effort you should set on fire actually works because he can analyze the gas and ass to see what was in the blue. For the most part, results, don't surprising oxygen, nitrogen carbon! all common elements, proteins, which is what he assumed the issue is, but then what elements stops them in his tracks, phosphorus no known protein contains phosphorus. It just doesn't make sense. Measure starts to get excited, he gets more dirty, bandages does more experiments and pretty soon he starts to believe he's discovered a whole new type of substance in sight.

Cells because it was the substance he'd extracted from inside the nucleus. He names it. Nuclear measure doesn't realize it, but he's just discovered the basic building block of life. Would he called nuclear is what scientists today call D oxy, rowboat, nucleic acid d and a that was just breathing into the rest of this episode and more search for american innovations on Apple podcast or wherever you listen to us We also find a link in the episode notes that will take you right there Stephen Johnson Amiss american innovations heaps of mankind as they happen.

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