Our new book, the art of business wars, features stories and lessons from histories greatest business rivalries with. Careful insights uncovered through hundreds of episodes, business wars, gotta wondering DOT, TK, forward, slash the art of business wars to order your copy now Join one replies to listen a business wars one week early and ad free in the wondering at down. The wonder yap in your apple or Google play Mobile Appstore. Today, a quick note, the dish, pursued, contains adult language and may not be suitable for everyone. Its February nineteen, eighty seven in Burbank, California, or city hall is at the dry cleaners, picking up his charcoal gray, our money suit. He pays heads out into the parking lot, as you it's close to his ride taken here is

our phone rings hollow Is it the collar idee its manager? What what are you doing right now, just grab my suit from the cleaners thinking about lunch. It bat Berber. What are you up to forget about vat burger get over the fox lot? They want you to guess toast on the late show tonight, since firing host Joan Rivers from her talk show two weeks ago. Boxes and filling the hosting with substitutes, appeared on one of rivers, final segments and did well ok, I'm on my way. He arrived in Hollywood from Cleveland at age. Twenty two has been busy building a name he's heading top comedy clubs opening for big musical acts appearing on tv whenever he TAN he's thirty one and he needs something solid and click leading to the fox studio. All try

to wrap his head around. What he's about to do host a talk show that's in direct competition with his idle Johnny Carson Paul grew. Watching the tobacco and dreamed about some day doing exactly what Johnny does justice months ago, he was on the NBC locked to tape gameshow. Since you already there also onto the dark empty tonight show said he sat Hi Carson's desk and pretended to be Johnny interviewing share. Now, on his way to making that a reality. I for one night his car phone rings, startling hall back to reality, it's his agent again, please don't me that cancel no way just keep in mind that the box people, like you, a lot I just bound

they're. Looking for a host of bill, the last eleven weeks of rivers contract, I think you have a good chance that that night in front cameras, hall, radiates energy. The audience loves him. He blows away the Fox executives and nails the hosting job he's young, brash, charming and black a blast of fresh air and the White dominated talk show world. He appeals to the hip urban too. Of the thirty four year old demographic. They can't relate to Carson's old school. Stick, or Letterman Cynical Crank, five box rival Paramount Television, the tv production and distribution wing of Paramount Pictures offers Hall his own late night. Syndicated talk show he accepts entering the battleground, where so many have failed

It's a kingdom ruled by the man he respects more than any one in the business Johnny Carson and the fight. Is about to get ugly. With sent pro online from Pitney bows. You can simply and easily print postage stamps and shipping labels, even when you, working remotely. That's right for his lower four dollars and ninety nine cents a month. You'll have access to all kinds of benefits like discounts of up to forty set off you s, bs priority mail and now up to sixty two percent off view PS, daily rights and just for being business wars. Listener you'll receive a free, thirty day trial to get started and a free ten pounds scale. To ensure that you never overpay go to p b dot com. Slash be w to access this special offer. That's p, b, dot com, Slash be W.

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from wondering I'm David Round, and this is business wars. On the last episode, NBC turned low rent late night television into prime real estate, with the launch of the tonight show, and nineteen fifty four, eight years later, joy Carson, took the host seed and become a phenomenon holding sway for three decades, but nineteen nineties approach chain, is in the air it NBC cars and is nearing the end of his reign. But the network has yet settled on his successor and the competition is heating up.

Rival, network CBS and ABC want a piece of a lucrative late night territory. But our city Hall has the inside track, posing the fur Serious challenge to Carson this is episode three late night explosions. Its August nineteen, eighty nine CBS is television City headquarters in LOS Angeles ROD, Perth is networks: new senior vice president of late Night programme, it's his job, salvage CBS is struggling. Late, nikes lie these standing in the studio hallway with one of his executives watching the network's answer to Johnny Carson, led the studio per is not happy looks at his watch it six forty five, There goes say jack. The show

barely over and he's out the door heading home. That's quite a fortune hosts Patsy Jack for them, state months he's hosted. The Patsy Jack show he's smart, quick and ethical, but as far as Perth is concerned, and say Jack's, putting in the minimum effort doing a pale Imitation of Carson and the audience knows it. This is Frederick his ratings are in freefall, we're beaten by Letterman, Carson and even Nightline. For God's sake, to mention our city over it fox our affiliates jumping ship like crazy for years, show fifty of them adopt, say Jack already. They all start running DORA scenario. Cbs will never have a competitive, late night, show and say J. His oblivious won't tweak. The show won't change a thing. This guy was a mistake, its rumoured that car might leave tonight within a year may be to the CBS

and was per se Jack to hijack its audience from NBC. That will work. Say Jack is just boning it in his One thing to do find a new house. Do can compete with our scenario yes, Ajax gotta go back there well, who, How can we get Perth is in a difficult position, our city always airing on one hundred. Seventy five stations across the country Carson his on two hundred and eight the halls. Crossover appeal is tremendous half of his audience is female, which advertisers love he's. Also after young upscale fans of all races in urban and rural markets, his media? Success takes people by surprise, including we're stars shock, Jock Howard Stern, I don't want to show Gazeta, go to bed you might have listened. Not as a matter of fact, I don't even want your interview mean US as we are, I don't know who are sending away

I'll, be out. Another black man make em all my minuet when your times asks hall to explain his success. He says that, unlike other night rivals he ever. Try to fill Johnny shoes. Why try to take Johnny's audience? I just want the kids offering a new neige were an MTV age crowd its assent. Programming maneuver, given that the three major networks are now competing with video satellite, Phoebe and cable stations. Viewers have a lot more entertainment choices now per needs to find someone for CBS is Baron late night slot who can go up against our scenarios devoted youth army and cars. An aging but loyal fan base hurts been through dozens of names but only one stands out

It's a September. We day morning in nineteen, eighty nine in the CBS Parking Lot rod birth. Dressed in his usual conservative business suit untie, but he's not here for the board room he straddling vintage. Try Bonneville Motorcycle about ride down Sunset Boulevard to a home in Beverly Hills, bike is a gift he wants to deliver personally and offering to end. I'm the only man who can keep CBS in the late night, competition Jane Leno, fifteen minutes later guns. The bike up the long Rick driveway of lentils, Tudor mention the driveway, leads to a twelve car garage. Leno a car and motorcycle fanatic comedy it's what he lives for Leno emerges from the garage and greasy cover olives and stares at the trial.

Mackerel ride this things. Beautiful does he circles the bike Leno notices a small black on the gas tank. He bends down to read it to jail crane. It all up and ride to see bs forever this all about rod, its little gesture from the network J Weed love for you to work for us, and we She didn't know where serious work last four years, Leno has been the permanent guest did the tonight show filling in four Carson during his ever Creasy nights off under Those contract within BC It's a million dollars a year. Perth thanks that NBC is being cheap He also knows that if NBC gets wind of CBS his interest in stealing Leno NBC will sweeten their offer the mode cycle is opening maneuver an attempt to go

great to let those hard while key things on the download and sidestepping any Mr Vocations, why Now I hear what to say, I have to say anything, J just think about it, pretty tidy and b c, but I will ride. I sure will great great great here. The keys now. If you don't mind, can you give me a ride back to work Like David Letterman, J Lenin, clings tightly to a dream. He's had most of his life to take over the tonight show for both man. It's Practically a spiritual quest Leno has risen to the top and stand up comedy doing a hundred it gives a year while regularly guest hosting for Carson he's oil to NBC and beloved by the affiliates

fly to Kalamazoo were Anchorage or anywhere else to smooth with local station bosses. Thing, the NBC brass loves getting them to part with the network. Isn't going to be easy to ex after the motorcycle, offering rod, Perth and CBS resident, Howard Stringer meet with Leno tough as nails manager, Helen, cushioning Rigour makes a serious offer a three Your contract, that's million dollars annually, he'll, be CBS at eleven thirty opposite the tonight show and heels art in September. Nineteen nineteen less than a year away. Cushioning is impressed These guys are just testing the water. Besides, she losing patience within BC, dragging their feet on when Leno will officially be named, Carson's replacement. She wants Leno behind a late night desk, immediately with her as executive producer,

Sure as hell doesn't have to be it NBC. He bs, will do just fine, Helen cushioning is sitting in the bag. Booth of a Burbank Delhi watching Leno devour Corned beef sandwich, she's all the meeting to discuss the CBS offer, but her clients, more interested in his meal Christ, J having not enough food in your stomach yet to pay attention of business for a minute sure Helen what's up with CBS Cosmic, explains the details, Leno finally stopped doing well That's a hell of an offer, Don't just want to go to sea bs. What that's an I show when Janni leaves Do you know metal far Quit in NBC doesn't have the balls to cut him loose with CBS used right away in them. He's damn good

Sorry Helen, but I just don't want to go on up against day, were Johnny Dave's a pal. Respect the hell out of Johnny. He gave a break and I want to look like a bad guy. And the CBS show that's just Patsy Jack's leftovers, cushioning shakes her. Head like a long suffering mother. It you ve, got am sweet for your own good J, Little picks up a sandwich and smiled that's why I have you Helen simper. Nineteen. Eighty nine Helen Cushioning Russia's passed two percent minister staffers trying to run interference at NBC headquarters in Burbank Helen Russia has no use for anyone in the executive officers at NBC, apart from one man, Brandon Tartaricum the head of the network's entertainment division? Is young likeable and extreme lay successful. He,

the shrewd deal maker behind hit shows like Seinfeld, cheers and law and order he's also personally close with Carson Letterman an Leno tart? cough has always played fair with cushioning. Now he's headed to his office to keep the game going good to see Helen come in was today's battle. I've got it M offer from CBS for J D start there in eleven thirty next September. Right up, answer: sacred, Carson toward a cop, swallows, no I understand Jays desire for tonight. I am all for it. J, but you know I can't just push Johnny out his thirty. Eight diverse areas in two years: Nick rolled your eyes hears I can do Tartu. Kauf lays out a plan, NBC will give Leno a big bump to stay on as permanent, yes toast on tonight. Until

Johnny retires, then Leno steps in. As far as cushioning is concerned, its a verbal com it meant from someone she trusts. Leno will finally get what he wants ah right, Brandon, that'll, make happy and I can live with it Carson's anniversary is until ninety two that's a long wait, and that makes me nervous toward it shoots her his boyish Gran come on Helen Johnny he had last forever. After cushioning departs, to carve collapses behind his desk he's in us strategy quagmire that would challenge even the best chess master. If he's made, right move Leno will stick around until Carson leaves, despite the No one knows when that'll be Johnny's. Keeping mom

if there's no set date Leno, maybe frustrated and jump, CBS, then there's Letterman He's been doing well at twelve thirty for almost a decade and see content in that time slot. But the unspoken understanding is he'll step in to replace Carson. And Carson himself has made it clear, he favours Letterman particles. Creative Letterman isn't at least offered the job he may walk, its anybody's guess how he will react if the position is simply handed to Leno but target I guess is it won't be good and if German does take over tonight. NBC will need someone at twelve. Thirty could be Leno, tart cops head is swimming by the beginning of nineteen. Ninety one Helen cushion it is getting sick and tired of Johnny Carson she's.

He's him as the last guest who doesn't know. The parties over in over a year since our conversation with Tartaricum Carson's idiot anniversary is fast approaching, but he has and even hinted at retirement age If NBC will step up and give Carson booed shields start the ball rolling herself. So she, in EAST Coast Connection plant a story in the New York Post. In February eleven nineteen. Ninety one, the post breaks front page news with a bold headline there. Those Johnny NBC, looking to dump Carson poor Leno store. Says the network feels he's too old and conservative he's losing young viewers, Leno we're trapped That crucial demographic, the affair, it's her behind him and he's ready. You take the reins: The post story revealed no sources, but it right. In b c to its core and humility,

its Carson. And, worst of all its basically true. An Anti Carson Whisper campaign has been building within the network for years, despite the whiff of treason it carries, But Carson is still the king of late night, even if his crown is slipping now, Executives in Burbank or preparing themselves for some tricky damage, control. They got a release of delicate statement that reassures Carson, the press and the public that the stories clay are untrue. But without saying, you'll have the job indefinitely. When cushioning reads the story to Leno over the phone he's puzzled. Why would b c come down on Johnny, like that. Nick deny she had anything to do with it. Some Miss Ray factions out to get him but Leno is non confrontational he's,

in industry shark he's a comedian? He hang up wondering if this might hurt Johnny, and how it might hurt his own chance, but the tonight show so he's going to find out. We get support from apple era think for a minute about all the reasons you started your business, a deep rooted passion for your industry, the pursuit big, bold, exciting opportunity, collecting sales where the government, who right maybe at last would not so much if sales tax isn't your number one passion, then you'll be excited to hear bout abolition. They ve harness the power of cloud technology to help simplify sales tax businesses of all sizes- and they affordably scheme- with businesses as they grow. Let's face it, tax compliance, not a revenue generating activity. So am I This technology is designed to help you manage tax compliance as efficiently and accurately ass possible, so

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make well as a listener to our show. You're gonna get a free, thirty day trial to get started plus a free ten how scale to make sure you never overpay go to p b dot com, Slash be w to access the special offer for a free thirty day, trial plus three ten pounds scale to get started: that's p, b, dot com, Slash D, W experiences, savings in your shipping costs, with a free trial of send pro online from Pitney Bows, February, twelfth. Nineteen. Ninety one Beverly Hills after the New York Post story broke. J Leno sits in his living room he's usually a mellow guy and our right now his brow.

Was furrowed in his got, sir twisting as he stares at the phone he's gotta make a call and he's dreading it. Finally, he grabs the phone and dials Johnny Carson's home number, allow oh hi Johnny its J. What can I do for you, J? Look. I hate to bother you, but I just wanted to say I had nothing to do with that story in the New York Post, that right I know you think Helen Planet. It I've heard those rumours to, but I asked her point blank and she swore May it didn't come from us. I hadn't no clue where it came from Carson pauses and continues his family your voice ice cold. It came from you Johnny.

Johnny, maybe you people are telling you that, but seriously listen, you're, a good guy J, which you need to be very careful about who is speaking for you in this business. Do you understand me when I goodbye J David Letterman has never been a big fan of management. Things got worse in nineteen, eighty six, when General Electric bought NBC parent Company RCA. Since then, Letterman. His unloaded his feelings about g repeatedly on the air seeing his remarks off bandleader pulsation. How do you feel about this deal? I'm thrilled no you're, not yater today the g originally owned. Rca, we don't care, we don't want to be get over by g. What are these knuckle heads going to do when they get it here, while I gonna just do not?

Look at this in a way I look at their wimps, aright! Listen to this rca brought you compare, what color, television, the first networked broadcast and color was NBC. Rca also brought you. The video disk are will they develop stereo tv? You know what we ve developed the Toaster oven from Letterman's perspective is a greedy, gutless corporation. Looking to cut costs where it can especially. With his show, which turns a healthy food, five million dollars in annual revenue, the chronic complaints. From the late show camp reverberate loud and clear among NBC Brass, they don't help his candidacy for the tonight show embassies, entertainment, division, Head Warren Little Field and had a productions. John uglier have been frequent.

Targets of Letterman's on air mockery in Iraq, in gag he's named them, both G employee of the weak and when little feel gifts. Letterman inexpensive, Crystal Decanter Letterman takes Great pleasure, in destroying it on air with a hammer, March lunch in the NBC, dining room, battlefield, goggly, a way Letterman versus Leno Little Feel taps the table with his fist. These guys above huge talents. John, but bottom line J is more global, more accessible scores high with the young and older demographics. Exactly What tonight needs goggly nods, and he's a team player Jail. Do anything study, research, shoes, advertisers and affiliates. You name it. Yeah use people pleaser, the polar opposite of Letterman

he's never happy everything with that. Guy's him verses, NBC, eyelid The day was a brilliant comedian, but my fear is his style will translate. The tonight show brand you can get away with a lot more at one thousand, two hundred and thirty than you can at one thousand. One hundred and thirty look Warren you can get down right nasty, that's why people watched it tonight show it's gotta, be Leno at eleven thirty, April. Nineteen. Ninety one Helen cushioning is at the end of her rope within BC. The story she planted with New York Post was personally have a stating to Johnny Carson, but it didn't where's the network's hand, the way she hoped but she's, not. With a network chiefs. Now she What's a contract in writing, nothing! Verbal! This time, some stating J Leno we'll get the tonight show. She

on tax, John Uglier, it's now or never He is well aware that she can still take Leno to CBS Nbc. Cannot let that happen on May sixteenth. Could again Leno sit down with a God Leah and The deal Leno will be hosted tonight and Kush Nick. We'll be executive producer Wars NBC is concerned, its win, win letter we'll keep his successful show at twelve thirty, and Leno will assume the eleven thirty slot. The only thing is no one Ass Letterman. If he wanted tonight when consulted Carson about signing Leno as his successor and then there's still unanswered question that remains the key to everything when,

hell will Carson retire on the next episode Johnny, Carson gives David Letterman some advice that will shake up late night. Pro aiming for NBC. An CBS and Helen Cushioning brings her below client, J Leno to the bridge professional destruction from wondering This is episode three of late night wars were business wars. If you like So please give us a five star rating in a review and be sure to tell your friends subscribe on Apple podcast, Amazon, music, the wondering apple, wherever you're, listening right now join one reply: send the wonder, react to listen one week early and add Bree. So find some links and offers more sponsors and the episode nodes supporting them. Helps us keep offering our shows for free. There's another way. You can support the show and that's by filling a small survey wondering dot com, slash survey and tell us

business stories? You like to hear a quick note about. Recreations you ve been hearing. In most cases we can't know exactly what was said. Those scenes are dramatization, but they based on historical research, We use many sources when researching our stories, but we especially recommend Bill Carter's books, the late shift and the war for late night and Johnny Carson by Henry Bushmeat Your hosts David Brown, Peter Guild, Scrap, wrote this story. Karen low is our senior producer and editor edited end by Emily, Frost, voice, by Michel, philippine sound design, by Kyle Randall young is our associate producer, our exact producers are Jenny, Lauer Batman and Martial Louie Green,

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adding to save their lives and the brave heroes they gave them their only chance of survival. Hence the odds is available now on Apple podcast, Amazon, music or wherever you get your podcast with, against the odds, feel the adrenaline wandering feel the story