I'm David Brown, and this is business wars as our series on the late night, wars comes to a close, we are looking to the future gone days when millions with tuna like clockwork catch, an opening monologue, now late nights less about the time slot and more about the formula and who can get their sketches to go viral online plus there are more hosts in shows than ever before, but overall, the field is still Domini

by straight white man- there's more diversity now in late night, then even just ten years ago, but still quite a long way to go for more we're talking with Meredith Blake. She is in entertainment report at the LOS Angeles Times covers television will discuss how the genre of late night is staying relevant to the age of Tik Tok in Genji. All that's coming up thanks with no fees or minimums on checking and savings accounts. Banking with capital, one is, The easiest decision in the history of decisions choosing to listen to another episode of your favorite podcast and top rated app. You can deposit checks and transfer money anytime anywhere making capital one. Even easier decision. That's banking, re imagined, what's in your wallet terms, apply capital one in a member at the ice,

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television, landscape man, you think how much it's gone through, since eighteen, seventy Amigo. Streaming. Of course, you tube in all kinds of other social media platforms. It. I guess it raises the court for us now. What makes a late night show alike. I'd show I mean the hidden. I suppose wrapped up in that question is what was successful late night show back then. Well. How does it compare the successful late night show now in the seventies, or you know, even in the eighties and early Ninetys there, there is really only one late night show and that was that psycho, it's Johnny Carson and when he retired in ninety. Ninety two really set off a chain of events. That's forestall that still continued to unfold. You know we had once he retired that instigated a late night work. Sweden, J Leno and David Letterman Unrivalled networks and then over the

last ten years have seen another changing of the guard in late nights and real proliferation across a number of different networks. Cable network streaming that works a whole new generation of hoes trying to sort of take over it's interesting because yet there was so much bound up in the idea of must see tv right now, You know you had to be sitting there on your: U Couch, he had to be one of the fifty million tuning in or you kind of, missed out. Of course, that's not the case, and yet the water cooler conversation whatever happens the next day. That really seems to be what it's all about. That still is a big part of these success mix for late night. It is, I guess now, viewers have adult an advantage that they can watch whatever people are talking about but the proverbial watercolor back at their desk. We know it's like you know what I mean you don't have to be parted from the tv at eleven thirty five and

more and you know it's given, I think late night, a really essential opportunity for growth at a time when a lot of tv audiences are contracting, but it's also complicated what it means to be it to be in late night and- and it's you know- means that you're getting smaller real I'm audiences in general, yeah. I wonder if that has an effect on just how culturally relevant late night tv is and by the way since we are still talking about late night tv are we talking about, though

programmes normally scheduled to run in the eastern time zones adder about eleven thirty p m. We are to some extent I mean that has expanded. You know. It's we ve got shows that air well into the night shows that style. After a while after midnight, we ve got some Sosa start at ten p m, and then we have shows on streaming networks that dont really you now conform to any typical time slot that you consume on demand a UNESCO. It's it's. It's really become lot slip, here in that in that regard interested because I'm thinking of the late night HO strike. These are the people who, in a way, are the inheritors of the mantle left by car, and if you want to follow that down, which is something we ve been sort of trying to dig deep into and of course, Fallon comes to mind. Stephen Co. Bear right Who else are we talking about which Ahmed Jimmy Kimmel? No doubt We can all you have South Myers, you have kind of you know you have,

bunch of sort of the next generation of the daily show? Like I'm Trevor Noah? Host the daily show you how Oliver you have Samantha be so it's it's there's really kind of a lot of iterations of this next Henrys, and I guess is one way of putting it very interesting. is there a commonality to the voice or the sound right? I mean it sounds like at least one small dollop of snark, if that's not understating it, but I think that's part of the sort of Letterman Heritage. If, if you will, I think that's a fair way of putting it. I wouldn't I sort of look at it as there are sort of descendants of Johns.

word because you, you know you look at the late night landscape now and you have John Oliver, who you know, wins the enemy. Every year you have spent the b. You have arms, even Colbert, whose now hosting, who took over Dave Letterman, show who of course started on the daily show, so they tend to have more politically charged tumor. You know they have more of a strong kind of political viewpoint, especially the last four years of the Trump administration, and then you have another kind of so even South Myers. I would say kind of put him in that category. He didn't come from the daily show, but his humour is very tuned into the Daily NEWS and then on the other side of the spectrum, I put some unlike Timmy Fallon, whose much less political, even teams court in their Beaufort musically oriented. They do a lot of kind of stuff. That's really tied to pop culture is more fun and primary viral like that, but I get the sense that politics that that that's an important

part of the late night conversation today, it's always been, I suppose, but perhaps shown I think, if ever before, politics has been such a part of what it means which you have to have in a sense to retain relevance, in a time when you have such diversity and variety on the meat a landscape in a sense it about going viral in politics is one way hit that main vein. I guess it is. It certainly is- and I think especially over the last four years, we ve really seen that surgeon you now it's it's helped people out like arms, even Colbert, you know he's at the top of the ratings now, whereas he was not when he first took over, though the late hour, but I also think you I've seen you know things on the other end of the spectrum going viral. You know Jimmy Fallon his as done really well with the viral stuff for years now that really doesn't have a kind of political edge to it. So,

I think, come there are two different approaches to tat kind of breaking out like that. Won't, let's stepped back just a moment and look at the culture in a larger sense. I mean, if you add up These viral moments or moments that have the tendency to go viral from the late night. Sir If you will what seems to work and what doesn't? And I wonder what that tells us about what we find funny, but what it says about us innocent, I'm ethical question cause it's I'm even trying to think is eight stuff that we find funny all the time, because you know, as I was saying, it seems to be two different kind of things in the world of late night. Very broadly speaking, go go viral. One would be really politically hard hitting stuff. You know sometimes you'll see something that John Oliver done some deep dive investigation of you, no campaign, finance laws or something that seems very wonky, and possibly even

worrying but it'll get in a millions and millions of views within a few days of its release, and then, on the other hand, you might have something like Jimmy Fallon, doing the history of hip hop dancing or doing one of his things with the routes where they played classroom instruments of a puppet whatever the big song is of the moment and that'll do even better. So I think that the main take away as that late night, The growing and expanded on there's really something for everyone, and there is an audience there to consume it. Whatever the nation is, I think, a lot of people, a lot of viewers. Looking back see a certain kind of a mean streak. I mean sir, you know how were unabashed in kind of taking pot shot at each others, certainly during the rainy days of the post arson rivalry, Much is just changed in the course of what twenty years or something I mean in terms of war, of that relationship, right,

yeah and I would say that it's really changed, even mostly within a sort of last five to ten years. There is a lot of stuff free circulating on there were some interviewed. There was an inch the different Letterman did with Lindsey low hand, which was a little conduct. Inducing. I think what you had a sort of in, though the Letterman Leno era. Not only was there, well known animosity between the two of those those two men thing famously like each other in and were you know in this heated battle for their ratings for for more than twenty years, and that has changed significantly you'll often see John Oliver going on South Myers. in others. This kind of cross pollination among the shows now they're happy the kind of go on each other's programmes and talk. The rivalry is not as pitched one on one. The same way

used to be, and I also just think they're kind of culture has changed. I think the writers rooms on these shows are much more diverse and they used to be still not as diverse as they need to be, but I think that is changed. You know. If you look back at Leno, there was a study at the end of his reign on NBC. That said that I had tallied them, his monologue, jokes and the most people he talked about the most were Bill Clinton, Oj Simpson and I believe, Monica Lewinsky subjected to an idea of kind of the content of his show, and I really think that is has changed quite a bit

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the tone of some of these programmes. I think it's a huge factor, and obviously it's a little harder to to actually see it You have to watch the end of the episode and look at the names of the credits, but arrogance made a huge difference. I think, as you know, a little more than a decade ago, you know when Letterman in letter were in kind of the final years of their runs. You had me, one woman in any of these writers rooms. You know it was not uncommon to have zero and it was just kind of accepted as how things work. Tino comedy was a boy's club, and that's just how was now you I you know I I have written about this before pretty much don't have any shows that don't have any women that doesn't mean you know even on the cement that these show. You don't have a majority of women writers in the room, but it has shifted the whole lot. It's also shifted in terms of you know, race and ethnicity, in the room, and I think that there is just the conversation our diversity has been so.

Strong, an important the last couple years in the industry that you just can't really get away with that anymore course. We also have Some changes among the hosts daily show veteran Samantha bees full frontal, T Bs, you talked about that Youtube start Lily sing, who fronts a little late on NBC, Amber Roughen, just it on peacock and I got a short run on NBC too, were how's the public responded to some of these new voices I think, there's all a lot of excitement around these women. You know that this shows that there, taking over or or starting, I should say, are not necessarily as well known as the tonight show. So you know their their platform is maybe not as big or perceived to be as prestigious as something like the tonight show. It's not this kind of Marquis brand and television in the same way, but I think that those you know they have again.

Smaller but devoted audiences. You do you think back in the history of late night and I can think of one woman at the national network level view restored, to really take some chunks out of the big three if you will, and that was Joan Rivers during her short stand as a host ended. It like I say, was short, didn't last long, why it seemed like women have not been able to get a foothold in late night ass. I presume, of course, that's because of the executive decision making, but I'm wondering if you could say something about the structural issues that exist in the industry, in the talent pipeline sure? I will I'll just say about the Joan Rivers thing. I think that to me, one of the most fascinating episodes in late night history, its. I think it says a lot about women

particularly women who were funny her living? You know she was his permanent gas tote, so you know when he had gone vacation. She took over the tonight show when Johnny Carson had been on for twenty five years and the anticipated that he would retire. There is an internal memo that listed her put his possible replacements and she wasn't on it, so she thought well, you know, I'm gonna start looking around and she took a job at Fox, which was then a fledgling network, and she was basically you know blacklist. She was treated as if she was this horrible trader for getting an opportunity for herself So I just think it's a fascinating story, and I think that John Rivers is the exception. Who is able to kind of make her way in what was really an old boys network of comedy as an institution and a sort of a scene is very and slurs. It's very cubby in others a very established, or there was for a long time kind of pipeline for an aspiring, comedy writer. You might go to Harvard and work at the Lamb Poon like Conan, O Brien,

you might then go work the Simpsons or get a job in a late night room, and that was kind of how you did it maybe go to second city and take some improv glasses, but there was a real established way of getting into the business and it didn't really account for women for people of color, for people who didn't got Ivy league Mercedes, but here's that here's that, through line right, it seems like when it comes to women, at least in the host chair. There have been scrapped, ear, sort of more experimental networks who are willing to take it chance, but even in that case, not always for the long haul right, yeah under precise, you know, Joan Rivers was on four, I think, maybe two years, and then we had a long long time without really very many women. In late night, we ve got Samantha, be got her start on the daily show and she's been on MTV Ass for four or five years now. Chelsea handler was uneasy for a little while again, these are all but of smaller networks at aren't necessarily known for their late night programming. So it's been kind of

this sort of thing where women and people of color get an opportunity when it's a network tried to make a name for itself in late night, not necessarily an established network when you think about diversity in that larger. Since, where does the late night industry stand compared the rest of, say: Autonoe Ha Hollywood, or at least the industry. As as you say, that's a good question I mean in terms of house particular kind of the legacy shows its bad. I mean it's behind, I would say, even sort of the evening news which is kind of another institution that has a similar sort of cultural sway. You know we had Katy correctly. We ve had other female anchors of a sort of the evening news we still haven't had female late night host on one of the big now x. I think writers rooms are a little better, but there are, I think, also behind in a lot of ways. You spoke recently with Molly Mcnerney who's. The co head. Writer of Jimmy him alive and she was sure

some interesting tactics for finding talent Can you share some of her method? Yes, you will really interesting she was telling me that you, no part of the problem with hiring a diverse writing staff is that you just don't get applications from quite as many women that there's. something about. However, the society works that women feel more reluctant to put themselves out there. So what she has done to recruit more diverse writers for Jimmy him alive is to just sort of reach out to people on social media that she thinks you're funny. You know if she sees somebody's dope till reach out and say hey. You should submit a packet how people get jobs any shows they submitted of writing simple deceived there. Their voice fits with the voice of the shadow and whether their funny enough. So that's what she has done- an ear that something of her from other people that user of have to work outside the system a little bit. If you want to bring new talent and don't wait for the applications to come to you, you go looking for

that talent yourself and yeah. So finally pool is a great when to swim in fruit. For two fine talent to it is, I think, I think one of the great things coming social media is obviously a very complicated force in our lives these days, but I think for comedy, it's really kind of helped level the playing field. A little bet. You know we ve seen quite a few great talented people emerge in the last couple years, because I just had a really funny twitter account and now with Tik Tok. You know people are really making their own kind of short form, comedy content and fighting audiences for it, and I think some of them providing jobs a late night tv. You don't thinking about, though late night for all of its changes with the times, and there have been many. Certainly if you compare today with fifty years ago, and yet it still kind of feels like a relic

of the pass do. You have a sense of how late night, connecting with younger generations to the even think of it is kind of late night anymore. I mean, I think, the idea for most young people, the idea that you would sit down at eleven thirty five and watch the thing for the next hour is bizarre. If not completely foreign. I think that people are certainly finding stuff online and sharing it, and I you know, depending on the show and depending on the host and their own sensibility. There also writing with those viewers in mind and and trying to find them online and often creating content. That is only shared online, stuffed it. It doesn't air in the broadcasts version of a show, because they know that there's a whole different audience out there for that kind of stuff. and that its much younger than the broadcast audience? Oh, yes, oh saying you know as much as we talk about all the changes to late night, it sounds like still late night is late night. It is another thing: it exists,

in its own orbit that is somehow still removed. Abed free the online media world that Genji and in a lot of millennials, considered to be home. I think so, but I think they ve So you know all of these sorts of made a very concerted push to inhabit that spaces, to the extent that they can. He now they all have Youtube channels and have for years, they're all trying to figure out ways to monetize that and to find new viewers. That way, I think a lot of it just comes down to whether what they're doing sparks with young people- and I think it really depends on the show and who their guests as that night. It so interesting, because if you try to think about, you know what the next step in the evolution, of late night. It so hard to say, because you know it's a bit like a lot of people say that there will never again be another thriller album, because the industry just isn't there to support it. You know where there might be wonderful, album out there, but it sort of take

over everything s hardware, age and especially in a media world like today. I wonder if in the late night wars or are you know in a sense, a thing of the past we're not going to see that there are there. So many fewer obstacles to growth that that sort of a bygone time innocent I think it is in a sense that there are still many more outlets that ie. No, we just don't have that kind of one on one battle: tradition that we set up between Letterman among over for so many years. For out. You know what a small

same day, audience that justice and work anymore. It you know because people can view when they want in, and you know, watch under clips on demand the next day or a month later. It doesn't quite matters much how many viewers are getting at night. So I think it's open up opportunities for people to kind of find it on their own terms and in its given. You know sort of smaller may be cork, ear, sensibilities and opportunity to to flourish, but it also does mean that yeah, you dont, have the equivalent of the thriller album and late night and he more who I guess was Johnny Carson, basically was it. Was the king narrative Blake using entertainment reporter at the LOS Angeles Times we ve been talking about late night on television and beyond Meredith thanks so much taking time to speak with us on business wars. It's great to say, hello. Ah, thank you for having me from wondering this is episode, seven of late night wars for business. Worse, I'm you host David Round

Laurie Galleron produce this episode. Karen low is our senior producer and editor edited and by Emily Frost soundness by Kyle Randal ourselves a producer is Kate Young produced by Caitlin Plumber. Our executive producers are Jenny, Lauer Batman and Martial Louie created I or non Lopez or wondering hey. This is Julian Michael's, and I want to grab this opportunity to tell you about my podcast, keeping it real. It's my true passion for as I personally endeavour to explore the most powerful and potent components of human transformation across all asked

Of life from medicine, fitness and nutrition to parenting, money and relationships, keeping it real delivers on a promise of raw authentic forward thinking, conversations with the world's foremost exports guests, like Doktor Sancho Gupta recently Susie, Ormond, Linsey Bond, Brian Green Eliza, MESSENGER, Kelly, mechanical and a host of other top doctors, athletes, entrepreneurs, scientists and more. If, like me, your constantly striving to learn more, do more and be more subscribed to keep any real on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your pockets.