I'm David Brown, and this is business wars. The nineteen pandemic is up in just about every facet of life in every nation. In the world locked downs, so Distancing unmask wearing became commonplace and twenty twenty, but twenty twenty one brought a glimmer of hope. axioms, developed in record time by Pfizer by on Tech, Madonna Johnson Johns and asked Rosetta offered a path towards putting this urge of a virus behind us, but the road out of these miracle. Vaccines has suffered its fair share of bumps in the road you s, health,

sure, just clear, Johnson and Johnson vaccines to resume distribution. That's after they were halted for causing extremely rare blood clots in some women asterisk. I still have not received approval for their drug in the United States and attack fine surge in cases in India has some quest. Running whether access and availability to these vaccines is as fair and equal as it should be for more talking with Annalisa Marilla she healthcare rapporteur for courts she's been covering the pandemic and the economic effects of the vaccine, roll out she's so been reporting on. The current crisis in India will be talking The amazing achievements of the vaccine makers, the perils and promise of this state to the pandemic and how pre Firstly, anonymous drug companies like Madonna and by contact had become household names, All that's coming up.

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text, fur listeners, just how difficult that really was to pull off, because I'm not sure everyone fully realizes what a stupendous feet. This was in medical terms, yeah, so about a year ago I would the most optimistic estimates were that it was gonna take a year and a half and Any one would say you know any sort of prediction that developing may be available before the end of twenty twenty were set of, dismissed, says wishful thinking almost, and that is because even a year and a half wood is being would have been a great exe duration over their regular timeline, a vaccine which is at least it has been so far at least thinking of four or five years of work. And you know we have seen that I've taken decades to develop so really the fact die. It took less than a year its absolute, not only on earth unheard of, but it's it's a stunning

feet and- and I think there are two things to be thankful for when it comes to that. So one is the fact that at least the first of actions to be approved in the U S and to be ready in a redeployment which were Pfizer and modern vaccines, both use em rna technology, which makes it more faster to have vaccine candidates, and you know, and there in that situation, though we got a little be lucky in dead in the corona virus. Like you know, Kogi nineteen and virus didn't really mutate very much, unlike even de variants near by and large, so far have been covered by the vaccines we relax. You ve done to trials can have proved effective and we were able to see stagnant collating people but at but at the same time the other thing that was really unprecedented is the kind of international cooperation into it. When it comes to the scientific community, you know

of building onto one another's progress. Also, you saved us sometimes an undue. No, I dome for that. This is We will see again: in the near future, and hopefully the woman in a similar need, in the same way. You know that interesting point that you make about whether will see more of this in the future, because this was sort of groundbreaking on so many levels? I want to get to something that you were saying little bit earlier about em RNA and one of the more fascinating parts of this story. His just how close drug companies came were researchers for that matter. To abandoning the Amarian a as an approach. Right I mean it took a global pandemic, in a sense to make this technology viable. Am I right at the Hudson, The big investment or you would imagine for something that is, so groundbreaking and we'd such potential

now, because of all the money they went into the development of this specific vaccine we sort of have now. We know it works and were coming out of this very tragic ear in half with really like a new tool in the Arsenal of Medicine Whitley that can be applied to a lot of things you it's interesting because that, though technology appeared to be there? The theory and in the research appeared to be there, but there wasn't a drug that was built around this principle. Seymour Renee Approach and Now here we have a life saving vaccine, but I want to shift for a moment because im, RNA and modern, I have been closely affiliate about a focus on Pfizer for just a minute. They're selling billions of d where's worth vaccines, the company's expecting huge profits to Roland this year, Pfizer's no company they ve been around for more than a fifty years can you say something more about what set five success apart from some of the commission's new competitors, well

they partner with by an tax today, just sort of like combines the size, and you know, manufacturing opportunity of an old established common political company with biotechnological penny that worked on unemployment. And then that partnership in a just really successful and allowed them to produce vaccines that much at mad mask yeah. You know that they were the only partners. Of course, asters ECHO worked with Oxford University on development production, yet Johnson and Johnson joining up with the pharmaceutical company Merk too, to boost per day and it seems like that J J, Merk Partnership took a little extra effort to get off the ground. The federal government had to retrofit when a marks facilities in North Carolina which hadn't been inspected. Since twenty eighteen and, of course, have been those stories about Johnson and Johnson's hiccups along the way. What do you mean Johnson and Johnson still saw the collaboration, even it even

they were sort of they were playing catch up there and catch up mode in a sense for a long time. What do you think still saw this collaboration as a lucrative deal in did any of that contribute to the management And you factoring error that cause them to have to trash something, like fifteen million doses, I'm talking about this partnership here with mirth. Well, so I think a couple of things. They think that partnership between Jane Jane Work is different from the others even mentioned because the other in the other partnerships have been, or are two different kind of institutions where you'd have by intact it's better to cause you company partner into it, for it was an old pharmaceutical company, Jane, Jane, Merrick, they're, both pharmaceutical companies and, I think, there's four metres many reasons why he was worth going be no going forward in it up. One is definitely do

neat and it's a diffrent technology that is, for instance, he easier to transport, it doesn't required a kind of cool stuff agent that fighting Madeira require it can be better transfer, the two people's homes, for instance, any can be better transported eventually to countries that dont have been a broom kind of. Holds the freezers that we can have in some of these countries, so there was a need for that kind of a vaccine. I would say this: Second reason to do it is that they still in others. this sum is less of the market. That's there as well You know this is a vaccine, as potentially in are going to be needed by the entire global population. So that's you know a billion people. I think at this point you know getting the vaccine now actually get it in the coming years? Basing the third aspect of this, which

you know is very important in my opinion, for specifically for J J. Is that a z gentlemen, Johnson comes out of a few years in which it was merely associated with the current crisis in the EU This is not a company. That's enjoying a lot of good will avoid enjoying a lot of good will. You know in the country, and then you know all of a sudden. You have a chance of doing something. Incredibly, you knew helpful and be associated with that so bright you sure, Johnson and Johnson? The first thought is goes to the vaccine, doesn't go to any other stuff and and and that's also something a day had done in terms of again

in trying to capitalize on his good will a pretty well it of accession. So far is is, is this tribute it at a not for profit models that are not planning to make a profit from it? going back to the issue of manufacturing errors, for example, and of course, there's been special concern on the possibility that Maybe a relationship between this extremely rare blood clots that has been reported by some who receive the J, J Vaccination and, of course, the the Loss of millions of doses is, there Is there any issue when it comes to partnerships? especially when it comes to vaccine something that is so medical in terms of timing, manufacturing and and and all that goes along with that process added. I dont believe that in the partnership itself, is is to be blaming his aunt and most definitely,

That is not to blame for the blood clots desire, independent and independent issues and and anything when it comes to the blood clots to it also happens extremely looks like we're talking about less than one in a million two chances die no blood cloud of a different kind, but in any case you know that would emerge from a painkiller like a regular painkiller. Over the counter the pill you know flying taken, an airplane smoking like these are all things that you no increase in some percentage. your risk of black cloth, and so it dear do two separate issues, and I think you know it's sort of because changing our car into a two hiccups, one after the other. It's it's easy to complete them. Do. Do you think that Of course, there's been a lot of bad publicity around J enjoy

the vaccine and what is it? Trustworthy and all this sort of thing in a lot of those have been dealt with by a risk benefit analysis and that sort of thing saying that, yes, the vaccine is a relative to the risks. But do you think that this is the sort of reporting the bad press? The media storm that's been built up around. It is. hard for J jaded to shake that off. I don't think so. Personal I think- and I also don't know- that Nobody was necessarily bad press person. I think it's it's a difficult and treaty thing to do, because and so what happened is a rare cases of this type of disease and the like. marriage, it's less than wine million, but it is a drug debts that you know that's in been used in an emergency contacts, and so it's

pretty standard to interrupted and make sure that we understand? What's going on in a at the very least, to understand, for instance, whose predispose we ve seen that women in a or more predisposes and again like predisposed to something that may happen lesson one in a million times Sillam cases, so very, very remote and am- and so it's hard to report that- and this is something that happens- we all knew medications but because all these are on it right now? It's very hard to report it without You knew reason alarm, because that's what everybody's looking at and again. The other thing is that which lay in a degenerate seen for the moment has been administered, and you ask where there is no quorum quote choices. So people about human beings beg you know most of the fort. That's not the case, and in O Enders Vienna many countries were in cutting Pfizer would earn. I wouldn't be possible because of the technologies available for in a four

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Annalisa is is one of the biggest brands in the world. How critical do you see vaccine race to modern as business fortunes, fundamental funding. The dinner. I I doubt that most of merit And so people into work really would have heard of amateur before before they start it at working on the Covid nineteen vaccine, and now it's it's a common named F He knows what what is doing and what is working on, I think even beyond at em are an aim is something that people are now somewhat familiar weight and again it's really was a pretty obscure technology in a prior to coffee nineteen vexing there absolutely and if you think, about sort of pulling out the telescope a little bit, how do you see all this attention effect? The value of these companies that we ve been talking about the branded commissioned investment, the possibility

of further research in M. Rna is gonna, be enormous, but I think, Also you. This will be an important moment, because the potentials and possibilities of mining technology A really really huge and they go far beyond in creating vaccines in speedily and an end to kind of applications that we seen in the past year and Heaven like it's almost like. We got through development, Dyslexia a boost, can't confidence in this new technology that could potentially change the way we treat a lot of diseases gear that's a really important point to a reminds me in fact of when say Last world war happened over war too. I'm talking about a fighting war. Will we had the Element of all sorts of technologies that we didn't know of couldn't really counts, fully conceive of, at least in the popular imagination that emerge

at the end of the war as a result of all of the research and development in manufacturing that took place during the conflict? In a sense it almost as if one of the major side benefits of this war against cove at night. In is that we now we'll have a whole range of medical tools. Perhaps will we might not have have come across as quickly were it not for the sort of collaboration and intensity over these vaccines. Absolutely, and I think, just say it is a reminder of will switches how much we can do as as a humanity when one we collaborate on something like how quickly we can come up with. Oceans and how much Edith like many way. Science is faster than them. Pollux politics are international cooperation when it comes to finding solutions to things a lot. Scientists. I remember it speaking too.

Researchers last year me no discussing the fact that it would be no day. Would want that going forward, is a fascinating observation for sure, speaking of I mean there may be a need for continued collaboration, given how we ve seen covered variants pop up all across the world. Are these monies. Are they well? How well positioned? Are they manufacture help out with dealing with additional shots. I mean I Pfizer Modena both recently announcing their vaccines are going to need an additional booster within a year of the second dose right, so are they resort position or they and to meet that demand, That's it that's a great question. It seems, if they are able to meet the demand of easy, the inn shall lift will be in a desire and at the next, in some kind,

These were you'll need to get everyone the first in the first two doses or the first social, some sort of like Gatt, the immunity going and kind of stopping the pandemic, but then add they'll probably continue to produce that, and it seems that the capacity will be there. speaking of what's happening in other countries, want to shift gears here, because I know we have a lot of listeners in India and India is one of the law just manufacturers and exporters of vaccines in the world, but there also struggling to distribute doses of code nineteen vaccine locally, while population is struggling with this horrific surge in Kova cases I know you ve been reporting on how hospitals in India can't even get basic emergency supplies, oxygen right now right. What are some ways? Pharmaceutical companies can push for easier vaccine access in these countries is that does that to be the core of it. Right now mean that the health care system there isn't always able to reach people in

say more rural parts or perhaps the They healthcare system. in quite a stable as it needs to be to deal with an issue like a pandemic? Will theirs Any many elements have play right now in India. I think you know, definitely dairies in summer so the country and particularly in rural areas, are out of in a big big cities. There is an issue of justice, sheer quality of health care in a u dont, have the same kind of technologies and new. I see you capacities that you would have, and in some in some recent country soldiers. Definitely that and then in it when it comes to the vaccines it it's the biggest producer vaccines in the word, but then A large part of the actions that it has produced are part of the Kovacs.

and so they have been sent, they had there been produced to be sent out to other countries, and then they, some of the actions that have been developed in western countries, cannot be produced there because of patents. So that's one thing to farmers to tackle companies and by the way there is a visitors here, material ankle to it. People should have equitable access of vaccine, but there's also a selfish argument late and we know the If we don't stop to our that, we know today, Hitler was in India the likelihood of new variants emerging that in our vaccine, resist and go home and they know, and then eventually device gets back to us too, Another the question of access was an important when here, the United States, and now as of today Everyone over sixteen is eligible to get a vaccination here in the U S and nearly half of the population is already receive their first dose. vanished. Imposing data from the Kaiser Family Foundation suggests

whose numbers could actually start to trend down in the next few weeks? Are we had a tipping point where supply could Wade demand an end. What's it going to mean for these companies mass production? Well, think it will be a little longer before a supplies out weights and But again, as we were saying earlier, like the? U S is far had most of the word when it to the percentage of population? That's been vaccinated and so you know there's gonna be need elsewhere and then you, Joseph today of Hurried Ito bite. It doesn't. That is an eighteen, sixty million Austria's Attica doses after they are approved by the U S and to other countries, because there's a dozen says, and I think you know there will be a case for

diverting disposes that I've been bought and that have been produced to two other countries that need them in this sort of global supply can certainly use more than what it as of right. Now it's not been. should we need equally across the worry. Of course. This is an ongoing story and you can read more of an early summer, rallies reporting over accuse each dot com, that's courts! Of course. Annalisa thanks. So much for sharing with us, your expertise and your insights. It's been a great to have you business worse. Thank you for having me our next episode. we're gonna, be returning to the wild and woolly world of pro wrestling talk about a gear shifter. We're gonna be looking at a special edition of our W W S, verses, W C w season featuring enhanced audio and a brand new interview from wondering, listening to episode, seven of vaccine words for business. If you like our show, please give

five star rating and a review and be sure to tell your friends subscriber an apple pie casts Emma music, the wondering apple? Wherever you're listening right now joined? replacing the wondering apt to listen one week early and ad free you'll. Also some links and offers more sponsors and the episode note supporting them helps us keep offering our shows for free. You know there's another way. You can support the show in that's by filling out a small survey and wondering dot com, slash survey, and tell us which business stories you'd like to hear. I'm your home David Brown, pops up a theme produce. This happened Karen Low is our senior producer and editor edited and produced by Emily Frost, sound designed by Kyle our associates there is Kate Young they ve. Shilling is our producer, our executive produced our Jenny, Lauer, Beckmann and martial. Do we created by or not Lopez, for wondering.

Hi I'm Samuel daughter and I'm fry and where the host of secrets ass, this we're looking at the unique ingredients behind the NBA bubble, a risky sides, experiment that was tested out on the spot, world in the name of basketball, as they say bows life. But how the leading succeed in controlling the spread of a global virus, is it repeatable and sustainable, and what can companies institutions and other leaders learn from the NBA bubble to help keep employees. Emu and family members safe during this pandemic. Come join US court side for this season of secret sauce, follow on Apple pie, CAS Amazon, music, the wonder YAP or wherever you're listening Right now join one replace in the wondering app to listen ad free,