The COMMENTARY podcast discusses the Hobbesian state of nature into which Seattle is descending as the protesters' demands shift away from racial justice and toward the abolition of capitalism. The anti-police backlash increasingly appears to view human nature and the institutions mankind creates as perfectible, which is a fallacy that can only exist (somewhat counterintuitively) in the absence of ideals.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome to the Commentary Magazine Daily Podcast today's Thursday July Eleventh twenty twenty, I'm John POD words, the editor of Commentary magazine with me, as always senior editor, a green waldheim. I jump Senor Writer Christine Rosen high Christine hygiene. See it editor nor Rossman high. Now I got so do I just pay that to me that the there's a gigantic market correction going on today, down almost six percent, according
What I'm reading nothin anybody ever knows why. These things happen. There is a sir, So sudden, new mood of pessimism regarding the reopening and, I suppose, a dumb, a surge in corona virus cases But if you dig into the numbers, I'm not entirely sure that what they show is a surgeon, corona virus cases and I'm I'm a little kid curious as to why, today of all days, we are having this reaction because One thing that I did see was this claim that access was suddenly in bad shape and when I looked and saw the house illustration right. What it said was that a hundred and six people had been hospital. Yesterday, for Wrote a virus and save twenty million people so that.
Just doesn't strike me as a number or the growth in the number from the days previous, the sort of thing that should cause paramedic or a market cell, or nobody really new way. The market was due performing as well as it was before. To begin with, I mean the we're stocks, like crews, I am that we're doing really well Even though everybody knows that earnings are gonna, be terrible in these industries with sorted disconnected from. Events to begin with. I was just on John before we started recording that I am a reliable inverse indicator of stock performance. I just wrote a Czech yesterday to my guy to get in at the top of the market became and had a like a moment of clarity right before you did. It submits, but most of it treasuries, but it still getting into the market, because I don't want to miss out basically Joe Kennedy, shoeshine boy, if I get in you, want to get out well, generic That's where we will. We will be going to on a daily basis
or are for our negative, investing taps Abe Onawandah on a virus. I think you as it as a number as a virus number obsessive your seeing some of this. Also, this kind of go slightly, baffling presumption that things have started to turn worse right I mean a lot of the day when you go into this state by state data on this stuff. The the graph showing what they are calling the spike, which is John says it is its relatively small uptake, especially relative relative to New York, a lot of the data is very noisy, which is to say that day it's up the net with significantly the next AIDS down the next day. It's often exceeds down stanza, so it's not it's. Doesn't it doesn't? The trend is not particularly
clear on this one thought tat. I had passed couple hours if, if this is actually we are seeing a real rise in states had opened up. It could be that were back to the idea that was out there. I don't know to three months ago, which was that There was going to be rolling spikes around the three, no matter what right, so that, if that, if you, if, if you were shut down before you had your spike, you're gonna see your spike at some point anyway, New York had its bite, and now you ve, no matter where you are geographically you're gonna have to face some sort of spike. I certainly hope: that's not true that we were, we were sort of warned a little bit Public health professionals that there would be some there there was gonna, be sums the likelihood of an uptake, although they do
no the scale of that once reopening began, because which makes sense right there will be people who are going to be. Supposing themselves through the virus who had previously been at home, but we'd also seen a new Europe. A lot of the new cases that were being diagnosed were people who had been at home, so I do think that their debts, Slight moving up the goalposts here to call you know a couple hundred new hospitalizations and enormous spite because we actually had seen dramatic spikes, particularly in New York over the past few months. So I think we should be really cautious about the way the media is is gonna. Portray this in the next few weeks were also in this strange new, RO period between when a lot of people work spoke, possibly ex new exposures, the virus from the protests and will start seeing any numbers related to that and if, if New York doesn't see a spike as a result of the protests, I think that would bolster the idea that you have. You have your spine
you leave the virus tears through a given population, its its honour on a you, know, fairly symmetrical curve and, and and then a moves on, and we are not that far removed honestly, like that in the stories have been framed as though Post memorial day, these states are doing worse. George Floyd's death was made twenty fifth Monday memorial day. The protests erupted relatively shortly after that and the worst days of the right. The violence was frightened at twenty nine through Monday, the first it's now the eleventh. So we really art that far away from the point at which we should be seen as a result, the resulting bacon infection oftener recycling here in DC. I should point out the couple: the other cities, where their words knew no more looting and and destruction. A lot of the testing sites were destroyed because they were located in
pharmacies. So there might also be a delay in people being able to get tested. The city is trying to encourage people to get tested if they had been at the protein but we might also see a further delay because there will be people who want to get tested, but don't have a place to go, get tested and again, we also have the now famous confusion between the number of cases. Number of hospitalization, so partly he's an according to NPR that there's a spike. Is this our further the market? Did this correction? Is the Texas reported twenty five hundred new corona virus cases? Well that what that means is that the testing has uncovered twenty five hundred new people of tested positive. That is not a hospitalization number. That's not people going into the hospital with corona virus, because they're so deftly SEC. That number was a hunt
six yesterday right, which is less than ten per se. Now, significantly less than ten percent of the twenty five hundred new cases and until we see spikes hospitalizations, where California is apparently had one a little bit of one or the highest number since May thirteenth. But again this this: isn't that kind of money, I meant so you then wonder it. Thousands are declaring that this is why there was this correction. Is this? Some kind of delayed A correction basically because the country has gone completely insane that was that's part of awareness. Weirdness of the last week. Right is sir, These are burning, there's looting, you have an entire serves, say or of the intelligentsia
sending lawlessness and criminality and looting, and the market goes up like that, that doesn't that serve doesn't pew. So maybe it's like I met this stuff is in Durban. Now isn't really going away. You know the Sir Insistence that we completely reorder american society after after George Floyd's death, so Maybe I better cell now could be here. I mean, is also I mean, I don't know what kind of hopes were pinned on things like face. One, reopening phase to reopening openings. That- in reality being here in New York, at least where phase one and it looks absolutely no different from pre phase one and what kind of let down that's been
Well then, you do also see even some of the governors that are trying to push ahead. A Larry Hogan in Maryland has as trend, is moving its to too and then he's getting back from his own public health officials? So this is also one of those things where, although people, one a test, their their sense of funds fear about the virus and, after all, these many months of lockdown by reopening and seeing how they goes you're having these and even the leaders are or who are pushing ahead in saying here, we ve met these. We ve met these metrics. We can do this safely and then the public health Officials commands actually now we're worried at that. These men were back into that that moment of mixed messages that we saw a lot of at the very beginning of this ban that it can. I think, that's gonna lead to confusion that will reflected in a lot more than just the market, but I think in general, people are still gonna be worried, but we are incredibly confused road vigour
were now in this web. Weird waiting period in which we're gonna know by the end of next week or the getting the following week, or something like that, whether or not the protest had a deleterious mass public health consequence and if they didn't and they don't, then the logic of lockdown evaporates complete. So, you Know- obviously that's what we should be hoping fork has locked down, is so disastrous for the economy, for businesses form and for just the general The mental and spiritual health of the country, the skin out this, this sub medical, induced coma that we ve gone into is. Is it This is where you know you start seeing tissue damage and stuff like that, where the blow the blood justice and flowing into
The interim ancillary tissues, em and you're gonna were basically gonna start having amputations in our times, thereby twenty dark here really got it. Are you with it became? It came to me right, it's good, I've been reading this book to buy my nine year old, were a character, is cried genetically frozen and there's a whole thing about how they need to get it into the preserver before there's tissue damage that this was in my head, that's artemus, foul than a ring, my man you're. Also. I apologize for borrowing my metaphor from a young adult supervillain book, China, politics they stay seemed to be borrowed from young adults. Brooklyn Book so yeah? Well, that's true, and, of course, the you know major who knew that the Jk Rowling was going to come out as a as a culture warrior for the idea that gender is real and that men don't menstruate,
That was not one. That again, I had in the twenty twenty bingo card was Jake you're really becoming a flashpoint. Figure of you know of traditional ism, but Hey you never know, that's part of the lesson of our time, so the virus we are in this waiting period and- and as I say country has continued to grow even more insane the Berkeley College of music. The alma mater of of of my nephew know em apologize today for allowing police officers to use their bathroom during the riots apologized on Facebook, for allowing Boston police officers to go to the bank from an there's. A context for this, which I think is important to note, is that there has been a movement and most of them cities major cities. They did have protest to called open your lobby
targeted at a lot of cultural institutions, we know private museums and theatres and what not urgent all of these institutions and many churches that this is how to open their lobbies. That people who are protesting had a place to use the restroom so that that's the context is actually there was this the striking do that in many places saw that so it's especially damning to see that they are actually apologizing for four treating human beings with who with bodily functions. Equally, in this regard, your who were protecting Berkeley from being loaded and destroyed the other thing like they weren't there just walking around for no reason they were, they were station near Berkeley to protect Berkeley. You know it's disappeared from this course entirely, which was there. I would say, oh as far back as two weeks ago, and that in that that in that
earlier century Halsey, I'm. Yes, your house, the good old days there was at least this nod toward the idea that there are some good cops like no, not all police, where we're not talking about everyone knew there are some good cops. Others are now. If you are apologizing for allowing any police officer to use your bathroom. You are saying they are, as a group not worthy of your complicit This, as I have a peace on this list should be on the website, but the time you hear this dear listener, which is all about the book, may be described as a moral panic around the existence of depictions of police off yours, on television, scripted television on scripted television. When have you it's not it's not,
son of a bitch, I it's not, you know a beating around the Bush. It is very clear that the existence of positive depictions of people in law enforcement are contributing to the belief that people in law enforcement should be viewed positively, and that is still a terrace to the cause of reform. And does a disservice to the new enlightenment. You absolutely shocking baseless and the extent to which the industries themselves, the indigent entertainment industries, have bought into this. Is a really disheartening sign. What will see how much they bought into it? You know some of this is a kind of reactive response. To basically say don't you know, don't hit me like Kay were really in a look at this, and maybe you know we were cancelling cops, has its thirty five years old. It's on some weird Sesar, tertiary cable network, all the paramount that work has long since
past it sell they knew. I would suggest that it's not no, of course not Life PD got cancelled, which is the most popular show. Script to tell us that were programs like Brooklyn, nine, nine or train with vision how they can write, cops out of a show based on cops, you been, you shall runner for law and order. As view saying that he was contribute miss contributing to society with his life's work, half a dozen other institutions right now, you're right, Morleys Outer, but need to go you about. But again, a lot of this is a kind of you know. This is a special pleading. You know it's, like I'm gonna, say what a raft said to get through this period, and you know that settle down? We move on from that. You know. Dick Wolf has made a billion dollars off of lawn orders, you need the law in order to have long order. If anything, I'm sorry to interrupt. You Christina Bagley Supply. You would know it from the tundra, the conversation actually by police or popular polices.
An institution. Can I point out what a sad before about you know in the house on days two weeks ago I mean I just want to read you a passage from Barack Obama's speech that he gave I'm looking for the data on it on June. Third, that's eight days right. Ok, here's what he said. I want to acknowledge the folks and law enforcement, the chair of the goals of re, imagining police, because their folks out there who took their oath to serve your communities in your countries have a tough job- and I know just as outraged about tragedies and least in recent weeks as many of the protesters, We are grateful for the vast majority of you who protect and Sir so Barack Obama eight days ago, said the vast majority of police who protect and serve our people, to whom we should be grateful. He needs to apologize.
Complicit with this the years. Here's where I think Noah is onto something that is qualitatively different than what we ve seen for where you know Brandon and a Hollywood types are signalling of yes, where with you and then go right back to whatever their doing, to make money, because at the end of the day there are business. I think that what we are seeing that different and I dont know if it will actually continue it at this level of severity. But it's worth watching We saw this with the poetry foundation to write. You know that it's not enough now to merely signal yours, signalling, is then assessed on a hierarchy of of forcefulness and and judged by not exactly a jury of of one's pier. Judge by the mob. Basically, whether or not its sincere, whether or not it's it's forceful enough, whether or not there will be follow up action in the form of money spent on the cause that you claim to care about its much more.
It's not merely enough to say where, with you, you have to say it for US I gladly have to fire the people who don't sand forswear, mildly enough, and so I wonder I mean that is that is a change. You're no longer allowed to be neutral, you're no longer allowed to simply state that you agree with this concern. It's it's a different order of magnitude than previous examples of this kind of behaviour and patents. Whether there's I will wait to see if it affects everyone bottom line, that's actually prefer for the Hollywood types. I think that's where John has a good point. If they're going to continue make money off of cop shows, they'll find a way to make nachos. Okay, look what let's put it this way? Okay, so there's been a moral panic about guns in this, for twenty years right, twenty one years really longer, but like since Columbine right, moral, panic and ever
I was there, but rosy o Donnell screams, a Tom sell it on her show, and you know that's that's the early two, thousands and moral panic, and we have to do something Columbine dead Parkland did this that The other thing, what is the single most glamorizing force in Amerika for guns, Hollywood right Hollywood is the glamorizing force for guns. The fetish zation of guns in movies on tv shows, you know in in popular enter, payment in video games everywhere is a key element of american Popular Culture and the idea that you can't hold these two things in your head at the same time that, as you know, I didn't really police, we need to do something about play. Some of the police are just terrible, so and cops shows will have bad guys and good.
As among the policemen and stuff like that. But as long as as long as the temperature goes down around these issues, they are perfectly capable of holding both idea. Is in their heads, but we have a second amendment which deals with done ownership in a way we don't have a constitutional amendment that that deals with police. You know, I mean I mean I think you're able to have that contradiction angry than it exists. I wonder if this will be different because we're talking about law enforcement which doesn't which individuals in it can't point to the constitution say I have a right to do this and you know you can threaten all you want, but I'm gonna hold onto my god. Look: here's a leading indicator around those lines, so the New York Times has profiled the Seattle Autonomous Zone, which is it Essentially I it's called as racial capital were the trap happening in their name, Noah
the Capitol Hill and animals that is the state sanctioned anarchic commune. It exists at the pleasure of the mayor of Seattle and Governor Jane Thirdly, the police have abandoned it and the New York Times Profile is rather disgusting and obsequious. The sentence struck out. Let me quote the entire area is now a homeland for racial justice and, depending on the protest, her one talk to perhaps something more unquote now the something more that they profile is socialist revolution: everybody they spoke to, with the exception of real, genuine black lives matter. Activists were disk. It by a lot of what they're saying around them. This is a and exit its walk. If Wall Street to point out is an attempt to read place of police structures of capital in the form of money, just it anything that resembles capitalist society may want to build a communist utopia but
we have what is absent from this profile than what we ve seen on social media is. The rise of alternative forms of police in this hops in state of nature, to which this several city blocks have devolved forces that assume the control and command structure of police call themselves. Police exist in their own lawless enterprise as basically a mob, but exert control over the citizens around them have risen up to assume what can only be called police, certainly not a palatable alternative to police, nothin, Americans, but this is what happens when you withdraw the force of law and order. Is that order establishes itself? It's just not something that anybody would call civilised, and if that is where we go from this away from this moral panic about police,
and towards a moral panic about the alternatives to police, then you can see the backlash settling in MILAN faster than I think anybody in Hollywood, which he had no up to do guys remember what the official name of the the Jacobin great terror was the governing authority of the jacket and great terror. It was called the committee for public safety. Robespierre ran the committee for Public safety, not to committee for public this. The idea that what what what is good when you set up a terrorizing regime that governs through fear and violence that, when you are actually doing, is expressing the will of the people and its and what you are doing by bike killing pull at will and you know being judged during executioner on the streets and all that not that's what's happening yet in Seattle,
we are actually doing is manifesting the proper degree of public safety, the oars protecting people from the regime you're protecting people from you know: aristocracy you're, protecting people in that way last year, a year before last, I finally red Dickens Tale of two cities which interestin enough, though I never read. It is the most popular novel ever written. The best selling novel ever written seems I write it enough, the second most popular nobbler written. I believe, as some the Lord of the rings so where the Lord of the rings taken altogether all three books. Second, together
at what century about tells essays which are set in you now is set in the seventeen eighties and seventy nine, these it's up as a book in three parts and in the third part, someone sneaks and basically goes to try to rescue someone in Paris during the great terror, and I don't want to be too excessive leap up melodramatic about this. It is one of the greatest pieces of writing in the english language. This section of the tale to set up the first two or are kind of hard sliding, but this is either the imaginative power of the depiction of life during the great Herod. Paris is almost beyond unbelief, and if you don't see residences between that and what went on in America over the last two weeks and in the Capitol Hill? What does it again?
what's going on in this town of assume, you're you're not seeing very clearly evident that that is that that is that dead, the Jacobites were the ultimate expression, the ultimate horrific, nightmarish expression, of this attitude. But there is a continuum. There is a deep continuum and that's all extreme egalitarianism, a complete disdain for any form of conventional prior order and the notion that what you need to do to clarifying purify is terrorize, destroy property and kill people. In order to you now in order to purify the earth that, as the alternate
to police the it is not social workers and unsafe injection sites. The alternative to police is another form of police. Just one, you wouldn't find very elegant how palliative alternative does a desirable when you you know before there were police, what we're I mean you know it's not what is the wet? What is the genre of the western about? It's mostly about the world before there were police policemen Ruth a Marshall comes to town to restore order, because there is no order. You know a posse forms to kill people. Big airworthy order. Do rough justice cause there's no other way to do justice. The you know that that the judge comes once a year on them her circuit. But what do you do when somebody rapes, a woman? You know that this is the great american genre of the twins
century. The western is all about the consequences of living in a world before law is established in these territories that have yet to be either they have yet to become states or they have yet to codify there. Their rules, particularly for its during the civil war or or just after this, is a classic american dilemma, which is another one hand we want to live free of. We want to live. Free of. You know, don't tread on me. You don't want the government to put its foot on. You right and, on the other hand, outs Hobbs if you dont have a well. This is worse than vigilant ism, because its ideological vigilant as rights of vigilante- isn't me, you know. Is it you it's terrible because its unaccounted and there's no there's no controlling it and no sort of
monitoring at and end and its end it its ends up being gas for sure, revenge, ideological It is now is sure revenge enacted to advance a particular cause and with specific political and socio political enemies in mind, but in virtual answer them in there in the traditional sense was the community without establish hierarchy or law enforcement kind of as a community tourism deputizing a a small group to go out in and as Johnson said, and act, rough justice but they didn't have an audience right. It was like they go off. Take care of the trouble. Come back black. I could never happened. That's it! That's a real distinction and I think, gave direct pointed out. It's not just at the door crime is now seem to be what you think what you believe
based on your actions, but on your beliefs system, which is imputed from weather. Aren't you you know tweet the right thing or post the right thing on Instagram, but it's got in a massive body hence, and the audience can then chimed in and add to the to the vigilantes quest in a way that that even further removes the people who were on the attack from stepping back and asking if their actions are actually justifiable. Given the the crime that was personally committed, wrote the lobby stepped back. All above talk to guys about our new sponsor the podcast bound by us from our friends at the Institute for Justice bound by else's a deep dive into the history of the fourteenth amendment. That is sensible and enjoyable to non lawyers, but also chock full of interesting tidbits lawyers will not have learned in cars this law class bound by oath wrapped recently wrapped its first season with ten episodes, its best, listen to from the beginning,
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Given that there are not being enforced for protests, so that that's that's happening to which all that's interesting. So so when they wrote. Some of the rules are very states of have have have tried to codify rules in the, as the protests were happening to somehow cover them. In this regard, so there is, of course, the idea that it was ok good, have ten people at a religious service, but a hundred that a protest. Right right in Kenya is particularly contracts. The counties of the regulations were very work were clearly ridiculous. So happy. A horse suing are saying we want have the same right to protest and demand the reopen. Businesses as the people who are protesting. The violence against short void They want equal treatment under the law. That's what they're that's what the the lawsuit is is testing, which we talking about like is there is a clear difference. Here and how the how officials are treating different protests. Gatherings
Of course, you know in a world in which you you, you argue, as as people are now arguing openly, though this used to be a more radical arguments, are confined to the world of in sexuality and very radical politics that Equal treatment under the law is a method fantasy, because the only people who ever get equal treatment under the law are wide and therefore this is used to actually is up if, as a doctrine is a mythical doctrine used to suppress black people, therefore, what? Neither is not equal treatment of the law, but unequal treatment under the law, with the law explicitly favouring the disenfranchised, the poor and the oppressed and the law used as a hand against those who benefited historically and practically from from this terrible system of of injustice rights.
Oh that's a hermetically sealed argument. I there's no way outside of it, except for one thing you can say, which is what people have always. Which is that any individual person solve the problems, formative, action, utopia. Going out for the same job, so you want to give the job the sullen. So in order to remedy past history of discrimination. But what is this? the guy who was up against him for that job? What did he do? What role he's twenty two years? All? What role did he play in creating a system of discrimination in the past. That would mean that he should be treated unequally in order to rectify the larger social wrong. Well, I think I simply wanted to This is why you don't you're, seeing less and less of that argument opposed in that way. And seeing more and more of the
you being equality of outcomes, are the are the evidence of of systemic discrimination versus equality, buffer today, the individual versus the individual is inequality of opportunity, question do but are both people being given cooperation in the eyes of the law. But what what I've been in? This has been building project, it's an largely round about format of affirmative action cases, equality about comes statistical outcomes that are kind of removed from any particularity or contacts are, are treated as as obvious evidence of racism of sexism of of any number of social ills, and the argument goes backwards from there. So that is where it making these into abstractions actually benefits an argument against before you don't against sorry it. It encourages the systemic way of looking at these problems rather than the
It only eyes of the law were looking up. I mean I struggle to to engaging in this conversation, nor make an admission here because it is so profoundly threatening to the foundations of the republic, and those for whom this is a real concern are entirely without champions who are able to advocate for their cause effectively forcefully and in the political arena. The president should be able to benefit from this, and he cannot wait. This side of the argument is simply defenceless in the face of this market. Passage of the Civil Rights ACT in nineteen. Sixty four guard guard guided through you know the the great civil rights legislation of the nineteen sixties, as championed by
Hubert Humphrey, for example, relied upon the promise that what was going to be practised was equality of opportunity that what was going on here was an effort to make sure that everybody got to the starting line. With as much of the same sort of like you get to the starting line without having shackles attached to your legs. While somebody else will on the starting line without shackles attack their legs, but why the race started, it was a race and some people would prosper and some people wouldn't and that what was important was getting people the opportunity to you know: do there fast and succeed and grow, would learn and all of that, but that you could never rely upon equality of outcome, because there is no such thing as a quality of outcome.
But Europe don't what's the starting line. Now is sixteen nineteen ed irrevocably? That's it right so doesn't matter who were if, if there are two candidates who are therefore the same job, we one of em v, the the non black candidate has presumably already benefited in endless ways that, though, that go back literally centuries and therefore the there's been a thumb on the scale in his favour. This whole time the argument for a handicap or general right and Helsenburg. That's exactly right. That's right! Anyway, we are in very very weird territory here, because, as I said, this is a half century change right as this, as the era of you know, of of national involvement in the external experts,
in the extension of all civil rights to all people, began with a promise that we were not going inexorably to head into a world in which equality of outcomes was. The goal and from the beginning of the affirmative action regimes that was the charge made by people who opposed affirmative action. You are now you are not doing what you can to remove obstacles. You are providing a benefit to people as a way of removing past obstacles, but you are thereby, if you do, that, punishing potentially punished others who had nothing to do with the placement of those obstacles in the first place and the compromise which which justices like Oconnor made. And then you know even people who oppose principle. The idea of a form of action came around too, was that ok, we'll do this for a specific period.
Time right you're either that there was a sort of acceptance of our rightly system didn't work as we hoped. Let's have this sort of purity of time. I think He actually put a number of years with material twenty five years. Rum from, moment of right wing was nineteen. What year was that I am trying to run a Moroccan up there. I think- and I look at the you're. Being that ok, this isn't this isn't on principle, but a lot of people accept as all the opportunity, but we're gonna go with it for a while. So my question is: what happens when that time period is up and there are still differences and outcomes, they were starting to see those arguments being made then we were seeing and in small scale, with the with the arguments about law enforcement and minorities, a meaning that we talk about the other day that their certain status of accident But it can engage in this debate because the debate really isn't about those statistical fashion got a feeling in a sense which itself had some legitimacy. It's not say that should be discounted
but I worry that, when it comes to, you know will disappear. And has gone on a lot in terms of sex differences. Engender you, women actually or have been pacing men in higher education for a very long time that you still see complaints about how you know in stem fields in this and that women are getting enough opportunities. So this clearly, what is the end? When have you achieved victory in your campaign for equality? I guess that's kind of the question. And I think the answer for the more radical side of the political spectrum is that had never ends right. There's always, and I don't think that's radical at all. Now. That's that's a position that I hope that the pursuit of the more perfect union is an internal pursued. It will never be established by definition, proof. Is the honest, only elusive, but that doesn't give you a licence to stop trying in the pursuit. The pursuit is the objective right. That I think the differences that on angle, on these. Her were extremely progressive, left
already have in mind an idea of what the perfection looks like in our working back where's, your saying we can always improve, and now I think of our progress have left, believes perfections attainable. Yes well, but if we, if we, if we take the side of the realm of the veto, simply theoretical and we move into the practical, what would you have here is a year are compete arguments about power right. So the idea, basically of the you know the forces that now seem to be holding sway not only about issues of policing and and and and justice, and the unequal application of justice. But in in in the composition of society altogether. What are basically saying is that power is held by a certain group of people and they hold it unjustly for all sorts of their of reasons
and in a circumstance like that power, has to be seized because incremental, because there will always be ways to throw up roadblocks to the incremental change that could lead to revolutionary change. So, if you have you now up of a radical, you have african american earnings go up by hundreds of percent over over over the decades that not good enough, if you have x, number of african american lawyers or african american judges are african american politicians or whenever that's not good enough, it's never good enough.
And to make their missing the point, because your judging these positive outcomes, one positive outcomes and are no longer the pursuit of this revolutionary faction- is equality about comes through the imposition of negative level negative social levelling on people who are perceived to have enjoyed benefits that they did not earn basin are accidents at birth or social station. It is no longer about lifting up. It is about levelling those who deserve at a historic and harmony. You know- and you know what I mean this is where it gets complicated because of course, some of that really does exist of you do have the phenomenon of you know mediocre people who run as to the top in every profession, for reasons that have very little to do with their innate talents are built he's and everything to do with who they are. Whom they were related to where they went to school
his they got into school through wave your recent I'm fiscal, that's why some of us want to abolish legacy preference and elite higher education, but right so and so that that that complaint is not without merit, and some of some of what you have to say about that is the classic problem of you cannot prevent people from taking care of their own, and when I mean their own, I dont mean white people taking care of white people. I mean parents doing what they can for their children. I mean families doing what they can for people in their fans.
Please and neighbourhoods doing what they can for people in their neighbourhoods and friends, doing things for their friends right, but that's not a whole race right, and so, if, like the classic rule, which is that everybody wants a good education for their children and will do a lot of things to get a good education for their children. But they don't give a crap about your child. They don't care, they don't want. They don't want charter schools, because then they don't need to send their kids to charter school. So what are they care, though figure out there? They moved to a suburb leave them alone. They don't want to take part in that policy, for example. So, where, where we are in this regard, is if there is a way to raise consciousness about some of this, that's that's all
The good you know the meritocratic. There are two kinds of meritocracy says we ve been saying for a couple of years right, there's the meritocratic ideal, which is that people get ahead by their own. You know by their own merit and then there's the Baron Craddock Reality, which is that the meritocracy is a self perpetuating stock receive in the United States. That has figured out a method to you know too have intergenerational success through the domination of various institutions and in various ways, and a lot of us believe that the ideal, must remain an imparts to make sure but the ideal remains kind of have to smash the reality a little bit right because yeah, because why should somebody who, as you know, who's, whose great grandfather went to Harvard go to Harvard amidst on our business who goes to Harvard? But it's that general general idea
but you're gonna, make it harder not easier when you create a revolution against all merit or a revolution against all in our or or this idea that you know everything as a zero sum game and you got it, you get that job and not that other guy cause he's white, your black. You deserve it now more than he does, because your people were oppressed. Well, that's where I think The most recent, the more extreme articulation some of the protests were seeing in recent weeks is Strangely lacking and idealism right. If you ain't, if you're an idealist, you can often persuade others too to join in your pursuit of the ideal. But there there is at least a few how the found first looked at the beginning of this country, what they wanted it to be an hoped it would be. There is also a deep recognition of human frailty and and nature, and I think that's where I think knows, although its pessimistic, I think it's true, oh, there is the perfect
stability, narrative that we see that leads to literally people seizing streets in Seattle, declaring a utopia but then sending out earnest text messages asking people to please drop it vague in front. Could somebody stole all the food they had the doubts that dead. There's this, that there is still a lack of there's, a lack of the idealism that I think a lot of people want to believe their country can still nurture. And those clashing values are our. I think that that's about it, we're just going to begin to have because it is like Abe says you have to go back to sixteen thousand one hundred and ninety two to describe all this. That's a different order of magnitude in terms of the kinds of value challenges we're going to be having with each other as a nation, really amicus to Noah's point of mean about bringing things down rather than lifting up is if, if it's all starts with sixteen nineteen than the idea, the idea here is to just sort of have a new other Gub, a new start, a new found, a new discovery of of of the country. In essence, you know,
right. You know the greatest. Many of us think that the greatest short work of political philosophy is federalist, fifty one the Fifty first federalist paper, probably written by James Madison, possibly written by Alexander Hamilton, were not really sure which has this You know timeless passage right, which If men were angels, no government would be necessary if angels were to govern men Nero neither external or internal controls, government would be necessary in framing of government which is to be administered by man over Ben. The great difficulty lies in this. You must first enable the government control the governed and, in the next place, oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is no doubt the primary control on the government, but experience has taught mankind the necessity of
axillary precautions. So what we have here in the if men were angels in this you in this astonishing option nation about human nature is, is the exact philosophy that means that we need to beware of people like surely Mccrae the wife a bill. The plaza almost certainly run from air from your next year. Who said it would be no, honor. If we lived in a world without cops right, it would be Nirvana. That's what she told the time. One hundred luncheon her goal is to live in a world without cops Well, I suppose all of our goals is to live in a world without cops as we would all like to live in Eden, but controls will not govern men, and so it's not just that government needs to be controlled by other men
in an otherwise it will become a tyranny, but men need to be controlled by other men, because we are not angels. Also. This is the sort of a weird cognitive dissonance among people who You know, a step removed from Bolsheviks right, I mean they're. Their political philosophy is the ultimate control over the public in just about every aspect of private life. Within the absence of police power. To compel the kind of behaviour is that they will to see it simply doesn't make any sense unless you are actually adopt triangle marxist. Case eventually another stage, a sort of ceases to exist? It withers away, and your left with is utopian ideal, but it's It's not it's, not a philosophy that we should lend any credence to, because it is just so removed from anything resembling reality or intellectual consistency or honesty. And yet it has so much compelling power
moreover, our national conversation refresher. Airlines so heavily on compulsion and serve shaming the kind that the kind of moral language of shaming than that works that works not write, it. That's a private forest, that's the societies! That's that's! How lockdown was enforced in the valley where, through the pigment ASEAN behaviors that we can actually compel through is forcing through the monopoly on the use of violence that we bequeath to the state It was done through individuals, policing, other individuals, their behaviour in their actions and that's a sort of thing that a healthy society can do and should do, but, the society that these people ambition they invest and the verification of a number of behaviors. The mandating of behaviors that are otherwise that people are otherwise not predisposed to engage and naturally
to do so. In the absence of the compelling power of the force of the state simply doesn't work. Their philosophy has never worked. Ever since its ever been tried, you always need a power of the police force. And over extroverted police force that a sanction and an unsanctioned police force. It's the job done behind the scenes are adopted. Story of every socialist movement in history that's a good luck archipelago moment right wherever the first got to sit down and stop applauding what the party leader said is the one who gets caught, get off immediately server. Everyone just keeps clapping and out. Several people have brought that up as an example of what a lot of organizations, institutions and and companies are kind of feeling
compelled to do that's. Hence all of the signalling and all the wherewith you were with your will do more, will do more on the idea that they no one wants to be the first one to sit down and stop applauding. I think also. I think also it's important to note that this entire argument is about the notion that the authorities must be right, and so we have all seen. I think we all agree that officer Shovin did something terrible and should be punished for it but to go from there to go from these instances. To this notion that we live in a hyper least society that is, you know, targeting embryo, using blackmail for target practice, and is incarcerating them in number Is that are so horrible that we can even begin to? You know live in a just society with numbers like this acts as a way to excuse.
Criminal behaviour on a mass scale. It is not the fault of the american people or the american system that people act criminally, are arrested and then go to jail it is it is it is it there was a decision made as the country spiral out of control to be tougher. On criminals than they had been, you now from the nineteen sixty two, the mighty nineties, because we saw the consequences of criminality run rampant any justice system. That was actually too lenient on them and not too hard on them, and we have seen the results of what happened when things toughened up, which is to say a crime drop of eighty percent, and now you have a cohort of opinion, wishes to say that that act that of changing american life from being a life in many places of menace and discomfort and fear
into something much more pleasant and easy to lose through and safer that that was somehow. This has all been a terrible monstrous mistake that that's where somebody like Trump should be able to make Hey does not seem to have figured out the less does, though, the method or the of the means to do so, but as though assess says people like cops not such were the people, don't like cops Barack Obama, less cops people like cops and they like cops because they like America, I would say ultimately that they like cops, because they want to live a set, a safer, more peaceful life, and they appreciate the people who make that possible, including poor people, including black people, and they would not like they will, like the alternative, and we may be seeing the alternative upon. Sooner than we can even imagine cause as it's like,
version of that Mencken line. Now, when the american people want something they'll get a good and hard. So if the american public has now Turning to to this notion that policing is bad and and we need to understand and be much gentler too to criminals and let them loose and deal have social workers deal with them in all of that. Well, we're going we're going to reap the whirlwind we're going to live through. We already lived through that once I grew up in it and you know, talk about on learning an important lesson and having to be taught it yet again. That's where we may be heading so with that secular sermon, of crushing were we will bring. This will bring podcast to a close once again on brand on branch, we're This non brand. You know I gotta keep protect that brand so for Christine AIM, and no I'm John Upwards, kids caliber
Transcript generated on 2020-08-03.