Michael Brendan Dougherty of National Review joins us today to discuss his controversial NR piece, "Convincing the Skeptics," which caused a firestorm on Twitter for supposedly showing undue sympathy for those who aren't getting the vaccines. We also talk about bad polling and the very bad Kenneth Roth of Human Rights Watch. Give a listen.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
some guy. welcome to the Commentary Magazine Daily podcast today, Monday July, nineteen, twenty twenty one. I am out towards the editor of comments. Ray magazine with me, as always: executive, better every waldheim, ajar senior Christine Rosen High Christine associate editor nor Rossman high on our agenda and joining us. Today, national review writer, author of the brilliant memoir, my father gave me Ireland, Michael Brenda, Dougherty High Michael. How are you I
on first time. Long time has the same. The radio businesses now, of course, you may know him as as the notorious envy d, as he has referred to on the editors podcast at National Review so I'm just gonna call you Michael. I mean if you Emily, ok great, add Michael produced a a peace that was published on
Friday on National Review online called convincing the skeptics, and it's a very, very interesting and flavored view of this problem of vaccine hesitancy and what we should do about it, and because it is because it is a complex and a hard to sum up. In five words it. He was trashed within an inch of his life on Friday, on twitter and elsewhere, and accused of all sorts of crimes against humanity. And I will say that the the the idea that he expressed in this piece at he and I have have briefly exchanged offline by email,
course of the last six or seven months having to do with what to do about people whose attitudes toward the vaccines are. Vaccination generally are more hesitant. Man. Embracing- and People now listening to me over the last month, I lost my patience and lost my temper in relation to this whole. Question, and I too I took Michael's peace as a refreshing counterpoise to my own you're, all idiots vaccinated or die attitude. So I thought I invite him on the show. Today we are talking today about his ideas about what to do about this problem, so that is my introduction taken away. Mister
So I wrote this peace because I have lots of friends and family, who are hesitant about the vaccine for one reason or another, and we talk about it and some of the reasons I think it out I can understand, and some of them may be less so and what I noticed was that another discussion publicly among people like us tended speak to them, where they are and even the campaigns. The public messaging campaigns were not addressed to them in any signify, way and not really dress to their concerns and in fact seem to me and to them counter productive in that it seemed like the
here the commercials that run during baseball broadcasts for things like that, almost conspicuously avoid the topics that sceptics most often bring up and don't address the root cause of their scepticism or hesitancy about the max,
and further like in in our circles, people that right about this is a public issue. The dominant theme is a vaccine. Sceptics are being manipulated by Tucker Carlsson and Alex Barrington, and we got a crush the sources of disinformation up the the campaign of censorship and censure, and that's how will solve this problem? I don't think that's actually. I think that would be also hugely counterproductive, because when I talk to sceptics, censorship raises their hackles. They think
this makes me more suspicious the fact that you're trying to ban discussion of this you wouldn't be doing that unless there was something wrong, especially when you're not addressing my main objection. So what are the main objection that I hear from vexing sceptics basically runs this way the simplest way to understand at all, I'm not afraid of cove it. I am not afraid of it, as maybe you are. I am uncertain about this vaccine, so I more fearful of the vaccine than I am of covert. That's that covers most and I've actors. They ve a variety of reasons for thinking ass, some of them among you know, my friends, they would be stated like I already had come, and I got over it in two days. I have of diesel immunity
Why is my boss, wise my company, trying to pressure me to take the vaccine? I mean I've already had this. I dont need to take this risk, I'm fine being the control experiment or you know they might have some other medical thing in their life. It could be I'm thinking of getting pregnant this year or at my feet there has kind of paradoxical reactions to drugs. So I'm a lot more uncertain and the fact that there is no long term testing- and I know there can't be long term testing. Maxine during a pandemic. You know I'm uncertain. and because you know, ninety nine percent of people were
greater survive covered. I just dont want to take it. Why are you making you take it and further? You know they have this built up distrust of the media and public health authorities, which I fear has been well documented in shared on the commentary daily. Podcast that public health authorities Roy similarly say stupid things and that in this they have tended to over hype the dangers right to not recognise quickly that no outdoor transmission is rare or that children are not at serious risk, and so, when you can and all of that together. That is what produces I most vaccine scepticism. Is there be some
and usually was made last year that I'm not that afraid of covert, and I a lot of the just the public talk about this phenomenon, we'll just refused to grapple with this world You will say like, while you are not doing your civic duty, you know we're trying to get are these restrictions and you're holding us back, and the vaccine sceptic would think no it's your excessive fear of this disease, that's the cause of these restrictions on business, I'm trying to model a life on ruled by fear and p s. If you think the vaccines give you. percent protection against death. You take them, you don't have to be afraid of me, so don't make me, take them.
And so that's that's kind of what I get and when you see all these public health messages, millions of dollars being spent not quite grasping the worldview than its it's trying to talk to. it just seems like a waste and into the into this back sceptics themselves. It seems sinister in some way and just like you, said, Agnes General Suspicion- and you know, for some people, like I will be totally frank. I kind of sympathise with some of the people getting your person that says I already had covered. I got over in two days. I had wanna one fever. You know why am I doing, as I have a friend who is in turn up to give it away, I'm sure if they listen, they'll don't know who I'm talking about, but a very close friend
a long time who was raised. A christian scientist he's never been vaccinated for anything you doesnt practice, Christian Sciences and adult exactly but this is just sort of an inherited thing in him and he feels he's being manipulated by the his employer to get a vaccine or to file a religious objection to it, and he so my objection isn't exactly religious, and yet there saying, if I dont get waxed, tell them I'm relaxed or fire objection by a certain date. Hr is going to happen. talk with me about whether my position is tenable at the company any longer, and he feels like if Europe, if you're afraid you can get this my own view is that you know somebody's
resisting people in my own life, their pro backs for their parents right my parents over sixty five. I not only got him axed but made him get a t, sell test to make sure that he developed immunity from the vaccine, but I'm Pino thirty five unhealthy have other priorities, and or ah I'm really uncertain, and I've heard things like one other thing. I think he's under appreciated. Is that commentator overrate, Tucker, Karlsson or AL experiences influence, whereas most of them Seeing sceptics in my life. Don't even have cable television. They know they don't even watch this thereon Instagram and they may be found for a couple of other accounts or friends, and they will share things like
here. Someone who had an adverse reactions and the doctors are telling them it's. Not. It couldn't be the vaccine. An inn you're so my advice and I'm I'm gonna, wrap up this monologue shortly. My advice is that at this point, a public health best bring campaign should emphasise the limit. of its knowledge, almost with reckless candour and say yes, you're, absolutely right. There are no long term studies. So when you say that you're probably right you you're, not misinformed you're, not you don't have any. information, but here is say a medical, a medically plausible reason why you should believe the chance of a law long term side effect that pops up years from now
is such a remote possibility that you don't have to worry about it. Just say that. That, I think, would go a lot further than what we're doing currently. So that's that, it's basically where I am and then for the says. I didn't mean that the peace, to be a test. But I'm worried that it is, has been a test which is that. if you are unwilling to meet these people where they are right, the hesitant- and actual eyes, the information they have absorbed in some of them are super high information. People. If you cherish you were just animosities towards them, it more than you cherish campaign to reach out to them and get the MAX
Maybe you yourself aren't as afraid. Of people being on vast, as you claim to be like, Maybe you actually are fun, like you said John go ahead and die, that's on you like that. Actually is a more reasonable response and then saying, go to hell Stupid idiot just get waxed like that's that's gonna. He says that tell just to clarify your button, but but so Diagnostic Lee. I think what you are suggesting is that. This is a reasoned and reasonable position at the people that you know we're taking I don't see how, after seven months of the vaccine regime that can be, altered. So what you might actually be preaching here is stopped the public information campaign, it's over people
people who believe it believe at the people who don't doubt you're, not gonna convince people who have a. Seemingly reasonable objection to vaccination. You're talking about literate, intelligent people, who are being driven by misinformation. They have they I considered view in their country serve. You is hit this point and breathing. What's going on now, may only be driving them further away from vaccination, but it's not quite clear that you or anybody else, has any idea about how to closer rail axis or an annex they may have a reasoned view. That includes some infamy misinformation. In it right or include some in numeracy in it right so, but what I'm saying is like most of the people who Express hesitancy me express it in terms of, I think my risk from Mister
it is really love. Here's a reason why I think that is I'm younger unfit, I'm the now. I am. You don't. I know someone who got it and even though they got kind of bad, they went to a compound pharmacy and got ever met them in the doctors not talking about that. I myself, I know someone who got covered very early and was treated with Hydroxyl Chloric when who felt it made a big difference and then had to watch as that drug became demonized of people have died are these impressions over. You know sixteen seventeen months now and they gave me and in tat they may be feeding that impression with something false. They saw Instagram or something they saw misinterpreted Or a study that was retracted, you know that there may be, there may be defined
some information, but in general the they can't you not gonna, Then, if you say you're, just being reasonable because their experience of this their objection is not. I'm being an unreasoning person is another factor that you have mentioned, which correlates, I think closely with particularly the GNP side of this letter. First of all, we talk about this in terms that are not especially helpful. Talk about it and in racial and political terms. I think those are particularly unhelpful but nevertheless, Keyser Framework Foundation Polar June found there. To quote, wait and see. Population which are very distinct from the definitely not we'll never get out of my face. Population is overwhelmingly Libra rural, which is it perfectly rational risk assessment on their part, the notion that they will encounter densely packed related areas represent a risk. Factor for transmission is poor,
well. So they make a rational, reasonable risk calculation that pull also found that the status that was most correlative to not wanting to get them covered vaccine is now when they get. The flu vaccine is generally not a vaccine kind of person, I'll persuasion and we can conclude roughly here that of the waiting population, which is also less weight and less Republicans Britain, that the partisan breakdown theirs is not doesn't tell you anything about that population at all The persuasion is good. Persuasion will work on the margins, but it'll only work on the margins. That's fine! That's important, but there's a population in that in the polluter class. That needs to accept the possibility that they will never vaccinate This fairly large subset of the population and by talking about as in two different terms, the republic inside of the ledger- which is odious and contemptible and conspiratorial and paranoid, and the Non white cited. The letter which
as recent and rational concerns about the vaccine, and this is the sort of thing that dominates the public discourse an soothingly people notice, because it comes out of the same side of her mouth and we're talking about this. These thoughts are expressed within the same breath and you can't think that the people who are poor boxing hasn't in our so dense, don't notice that distinction, the tunnel distinction when we talk about when we engage and persuasion efforts, in two other things to that point, one is that when an I've had debates, friends, who are very left, leaning, very pro vaccination, very problem by the administration policy on persuading everybody get vaccinated and they do the frame and very distinctly. When I raised the issue of how are you dealing with, you know, communities that are democratic party concessions like African Americans, who are clearly very hesitant and until we get the vaccine there. counts as well. You know their as Noah says there is a real issue in working to reach out and were quite sure. It's really not their fault. It's inequity issue.
However, on the right, it's you know, if you look at these GEO Predominated states. This is a right wing political campaign now and then they point to tuck across into such a sucker. What they dont speak too are. For example, I hear from a lot of young women who, as you said, that you are getting pregnant, who, when you is the issue that or public health officials raised the issue. They don't acknowledge what they don't know, and I think that those women could be persuaded if they said this isn't a little mind, for example. This is. This is a different kind of of thing: Here's what we know, here's what we don't know, but the risk assessment is still here for you for your age range for where you live, they dont trust, they don't say
I don't know and given that you know as well as you said my gold your sixteen months ago, it was commonly Harris and left wing opinion makers who are raising concerns, asking a few questions about the safety of vaccines when they were being produced under the aegis of the top administration. Monogamous raising concerns, Comma Harris said in Surinam trusted worthy. She would not trust a vaccine produced under the trumpet ministration visit. She was. She was the vice presidential candidate of the Democratic Party, the United States. I would add to this point about the arms get in the way it works. One side of vaccine scepticism is talked about that, as opposed to the other. So you often hear this idea in media social media, that black Americans have this condition
and one distrust of american institutions because of the history of things like that Tuskegee experimental. Syphilis experiments allowing well Americans did to go untreated with syphilis too, to see what happens and all that now I they argue that those things obviously true in their horrors, but those are part of the church. just that are made by. Liberal, media and academia against the? U S, I dont know that that, and so it's very easy for them to talk about what's going on. In those terms, I don't know if you took you know five average Americans of any color of any ethnicity out there and asked them about these things.
that they want that they would necessarily even be cognisant of them. So I would almost argue that there is some case for it for saying that, there's a pull that there's a political stance. That's been formed on the left about distrusting these vaccines. That continues even I work now, even if they were cognizant of this history as odious as it is too Fear of that outcome today. Now as paranoid and conspiratorial as the people who think they're injecting chips in your bloodstream Bible. But with him, oh don't have my colored one thing. I mean they pick those because they see when, but they dont say you never hear liberal say like a. We have to be sent if there is a porter wreaking, hesitant about this vaccines, because in there
In eighteen, sixty is when we were experimenting with the pill. We killed a lot of puerto rican, girls with the birth control pill or meat rendered them, infertile, that's never brought. It sounds like, and that was more recent than moves the Tuskegee experiment which finished up in it in nations only to officially but the because we're talking about the thirties and Fortys fifties. So yeah it's definitely liberal academics talking to themselves look the the the world in which medications, drugs, pharmaceuticals that have gone through a decade of rigorous testing and then come under pressure. Twenty years later, illegally, with arguments being
aid that they are to blame for Ex Wires Z, including medical implants like silicone, breast implants and stuff, like that, that is a liberal democratic world, that's the tort bar that is not the world. Of Vienna, conservative deregulatory blah blah blah being scared, government scepticism, the world of people who looked at from from the eighties through relatively recently. Of I mean it's not really the same as it was, but who looked at things that had gone through this saying regulatory process came out. Other side and then were mark in them, were became, used and then Where's hunting for money deterred looked for patterns that they could bring before George
he's enumerate or be no scientifically illiterate juries that they could that they could get either settlements, because the companies wouldn't trust that the jury could understand the science or whatever. That that was a backbone of the different parties, most important donor base, which was the tool bar. I mean the torrent bar state by state by state the towards bar was the single largest donor to democratic party politicians and democratic party causes. for decades. Everything changed after says that the various other things, but I mean, let's, not outweigh if we're going to rewrite hit. If we're gonna talk bout, the world of hesitancy, about the efficacy of things created by farmers.
local companies, that is not a right wing delusion that is, that is in the course of my lifetime. There's something that where you heard was where you hurt, where you heard that kind of thing was from the left and where you heard people saying what are you talking about? This stuff is great, in fact, there's it's too regulated was the Wall Street Journal, let it boil page which of course carry for. Fought against Anthony Voucher in the eighties, on the grounds that we needed to allow. Experimentation with aids, drugs, Remember I mean this again were Roberto Anthony found. She was on the wrong side of the were how to investigate how to find a way for people to live. AIDS or he was looking for a cure for aids. It turned out that there were mitigation strata,
these for AIDS and heap actually tried to were roadblocks and their path. Fruit for for a decade now turn that that was the way too we could cure. eliminate aids or eradicate aids, but we could treat people with AIDS and their their wives would continue and that they wouldn T have die from proposes sarcoma. So this is a real thing that people have conveniently forgotten, not by the way that there isn't that, then you don't have a weird holistic libertarian world of vitamin takers at like MEL Gibson, and was one of these guys at all like when they were say: oh you can't just you know, sell anything Aegean Sea to remember this is all thing where the FDA wanted to start regulating supplements, Yan L Gibson before he started. You know screaming about cops and Jews, like
put tens of millions of dollars into defending the rights of people to take whatever supplement they wanted to take. So they re there is. There is the stuff on both sides, vile and and so we are seeing something a turn as as what we ve seen a lot of these terms, where, as for who you would classifies right, leaning or right wing populists as they feel or come to recognise that, all the major institution, of our society. seemingly are dominated by progressives, who hate them and who they dont and with whom they dont trust. In a baby, you know one thing I will hear is like well, you know these pharmaceutical
companies like a vaccine that eventually gets added to the schedule for children. That's a huge money maker for them, so they have tons of interest to lobby. And now there I have a less oppositional relationship with the FDA lefty I like in it and ends up one, to defend them, so we're not getting the real dad other throwing out the real dad are released. I suspect they are that there's there's this. Financial incentive for corruption on this matter, and so like as more kind of populist thinking comes into the right that idea of the corruption of our institutions. I think has a lot more power on the right like it used to have on the left, there were talking about a numeracy. We're talking about statistics, we're talking about people needing to understand the effect of of of
a rod numbers on their lives and that's why, once again, I'm gonna tell you to pay attention to the product. The things produced by the bond some group are things that by coastal financial management service, Burma, three billion dollars under management run by David Bonds and every day a in the Dc. Today, our common every week in the dividend CAFE in Dividend CAFE: dot COM, David crunches numbers crunch, members macro economically, he crunch heap. He did a lot of his done a lot of work on uncovered. He he tries to look at the interplay of politics and policy and how The wrong numbers are sometimes use and misuse to make political arguments that are macro economically foolish to stupid. This is in
valuable material for people who want to get a fresh look at the We're number of statistics that come out from the federal government that are very hard to tabulate and sort through and David. Does it free you gotta dividend, CAFE dotcom sign up for dividend? Cafe, I've come and the desire to data come that's the bonds and group the antidote to the intellectuals we any of the financial services and management world, so My friend downcast text me this morning and says why are wise and the world blaming the by demonstration for its failures that industry this. Why are we blaming the by demonstration for failing to come up with creative and effective ways to overcome facts? Hesitancy, isn't this failure of imagination and to be honest, so binds been present for seven months
all we ve been told, is boy? Did he really got a handle on their city? Really you now day, calm down and there's a focused and Jeff Z, and send you, the Andes least of these people are, you know, are just fantastic in there just doing such a great joy. Avenant focused and serious, and all of this and and you know, I think we can literally tag the moments when vexed hesitancy slammed into the- overwhelming rushed to get the vaccine with this. To sort of the panic over Johnson and Johnson and this aid cases of whatever as some serious heart disorder in out of seven million people who had been vaccinated, eight out of seven million
that happen under the by demonstrations AEGIS lavishly. You know, I really wonder like how, if there's a if there's a corner virus task force, like did not come up in the meeting of the facts for taskforce. that afternoon before you know, the federal government made an announcement that they were suspending the Johnson Johnson vaccine to link up the flagpole to the present United States on the most important issue facing the country. Where did it or didn't? We no idea, and I think there is. It really is the case with. I think they did a good thing last week at a Livia Ringo, the biggest Starn America right now, particularly among teenagers hat at the White House to say should get the vaccine. That was a good thing if you believe in getting the vaccine in particular teenagers, but what's their strategy I mean they're strategy does seem to be to say: Facebook is killing people which is
not a strategy that is a we don't know what to do it was so we're just gonna blame Facebook, but on that and where the Facebook Comic comes after months of Buffalo Place, will go social media army to those very much you didn't say well hind the scenes the binding ministration has been putting pressure on all the big tech platforms about misinformation in a way that should concern every free thinking. America knew who wants to protect the first amendment, but I will say: look I ate an interesting question that you're asking, but we already know the answer. The binding ministrations approach has been where the grown ups we're not trump so everything's fine. Meanwhile, they had Governor Cuomo who'd, kill almost more people than any anyone else who was in charge during the pandemic, as as the head of their governors task Force, me. There wasn't any serious rethinking of the strategies that were used. It was just the good guys are back in charge. No one needs to worry anymore, and I think that speaks to Michael's point in his excellent piece, which is the people who see that
behavior, but no the actual facts about what has happened throughout this pandemic say, going on. Why should we trust these guys? I would add that they have another big idea, which is to return the mitigation measures status quo Ante win The scheme was having its bike CDC director. a very public pressure on Gretchen wit to re, impose restrictions, Turkey, twenty twenty, which she terribly declined to do this week, the city of LOS Angeles, Canny, LOS Angeles, reimposed, its mass mandate and the surgeon general is out there applauding this move things absolutely necessary and important, which we can all interior it will have the singular effect of masking up vaccinated people One of these and in one of the places in your times, described as mean mostly upscale places Imposing these restrictions on live on shoppers, for example, quote cafes, pastries pit
history is I'm sorry and brunch spots in Beverly Hills attaining a pronounced, the word it so upscale. This is the everything that we'll talk people who are already vaccinated and because there is a fair amount of hesitancy in places, arable redder in LOS Angeles, we'll be all the opportunities in the world for people who are in fact needed to want to go. Mass must have just go. Patronize us places to congregate amongst themselves, which will only exacerbate the problem that the way has a seeking to avert here, to the extent that the body ministration has failed here, doesn't it confirmed something that conservatives have always felt, which is that you can govern behavior? You can't do that that this is in fact, at the end of the day, not what the governess good at work. For why can't compel
Avian I've been. Obviously, conservatives like, like let em talisman, believe believe that government can do things to incentivize good behaviour, let's say or behaviour that we think is socially strong. That's why you have tax credits for kids agreeably you fuck around with the tax code to favour certain kinds of behaviors it you thinker, civilization, enhancing as opposed to other side of the conspiracy. It's only libertarians, who think all of that is like is, is bad but having having said that, I think what you can't do is skull you. You can't scold everybody into being too into doing the right thing like you can't wag your finger at people, particularly if they are people who are not part of your team and then assume that they are gonna. Listen to you now I dont know this gets.
To the ultimate point, I think in relation to Michael's piece which, as we may have reached the limit of the public information campaign, that an end that, from here on in all your doing, is exacerbating the tensions in the country. When you can actually convince people that what should happen is that they should get vaccinated so there they there are there not and if you start keep yelling at them, at them, yelling at them all you're doing is getting their backs up. Getting the people who don't like them, either to like them. Even less and making the social compact in the country worse, when you have no effect one way of securing your aim and the other way of looking at this- and I just want to point this out because we keep talking about this- is though it's a grotesque failure and the vaccination campaign is. Should we look
at an a different way. I'm looking at the numbers today- ok, Americans, teaming up and remember. We we didn't even have vaccinations available, two Americans younger than eighty or younger than sixteen. Until what April, I think or meat may may a in up, Six, the as of today, sixty eight percent of had at least one dose, sixty percent. Fifty nine percent are fully vaccinated in the total population. I'd say it's. Fifty six percent have one dose forty eight percent of fully vaccinate, which means that in two weeks time the eighteen it up now it will be well over. Seventy percent and fully vaccinated number will be well over sixty percent of the total population that is at least one those will be over. Sixty percent.
of everyone in the United States at three hundred and thirty million people. That's like to underline this is that this is a phenomenal accomplishment. It's just that have established a baseline that it's only gets only gonna work as a better, public policy if we achieve heard immunity solely as results of the vaccination regime. I think emotionally than a lot of the people who got really upset with me in my peace is add emotionally they their victory. Is I want research. stirs and conservatives to say uncle like I want them to expire like some level submission to the expertise and that's all are there focusing on Tucker Karlsson, Re Trump saying the vaccine a couple times in April and may that wasn't satisfying enough.
so I dont know if it all it will ever come to them. You know, and it's it's it's possible, some other, the hesitant they're gonna get you know. They're gonna get natures vaccine which, maybe it's more dangerous, but that's it out. We know. We know that there are thirty. Six million people have gotten covered in the United States, of whom six hundred and twenty thousand of died you already six million people right, that's like twelve or eleven percent of the population has gotten covered. We have. We are on track to having sixty percent of the of the people, who are really at risk that has ever people over the age of eighteen. Will have been vaccinated and even a what number that, as that's like you that way so were work, hard immunity,
the number that was thrown around seventy percent or eighty percent or seventy five percent whatever. If you add up the vaccinated and the people have had covered you're, getting close to the number, we were told meant that we were going she heard immunity, but we are turning- and this is the interesting question cause I'm not sure why we are in the process, because we surrendered ourselves too. public health and media regime of understanding of how this works. We are turning what may be a colossal and fantastic success into something that looks like a failure when Lhasa, It was county which had nine deaths or eight deaths the day that the public health officials announced that they will imposing the indoor mask mandate for every, including the vaccinated when they do that they are saying.
It's not working well, whatever we did not work. I dont know why a baby- it's maybe its people in Mississippi, but its not working what we promised. You isn't working, that's insane that when, in the course of human of hens, Do you take a national mobilization, then, which you are going to be able to aim that more than sixty percent of the voting population of the United States agreed to do thing voluntarily to do it and then say that it's a failure in it kills the cynicism and scepticism that Michael, Was writing about among people who might be on the fence, and I mean honestly the I know. Public health folks can never bring themselves to say this, but they could just say version of what we ve kind have been arguing on the package for weeks now. Which is the risk, is now entirely on the on dioxin. It they take it upon themselves, they might get sick and
We know that almost a hundred percent of the people who are hospitalized for covert thou are hot, are unboxing aided? You have you ve seen on social media people who were in their thirties and fortys get berries? and say I regret not getting a vaccine. Should a garden really really can abundant and I'm quite sick. That's a public health message. It might or might not reach the people that we are still trying to reach with any sort of products message but tests, but I dont think it's it's in helpful at all both to the already vaccinated entered. reach those who are socially signal by putting on mass again I mean I'm not gonna, where one, but these cultural battles, I think make people dig in their heels, not rethink their their private. But You'Re- not going to wear them now, but, A lot of people are going to wear them and then people I wanted to wear them again around where I am on the EAST coast, without without benefit, because and we're time a vaccinated people simply because here's what they know they
are they here? Well, you know in Israel there some evidence. You got Pfizer that little breakthrough, that the delta very will break through Pfizer. Israel is thinking of reimposing locked down. They have almost no cases. The public health world likes locked, let likes locking down, because it is a. It is a simple trio's measure right Here's how we have we did, the absence of having everybody go and get vaccinated put on a mask. We have. We have to do something and that's what I think Also like it, because it's evidence that they are right. You know it's like sick told you know now we have to lie down using right. Well, you now. Let me just pull back for a minute and talk to you about Our second advertiser today, the Ex chair, while some of us are getting back to
officer us find ourselves in a new normal at home. Future work is chain sows. The future seeding ex chair is at the forefront of home office sitting during this transition that now ex journalist, innovation, Elam acts. Temperature regulation will take your seat, upwards or hold the level patent. Bending Ella MAX allows you to experience, cooling, massaging your low back failure, but why? the Somerset Euro MAX the cooling, the air conditioning, your home, our office, cranked up too high set your element the heating warm up and soon tired muscles feeling stressed from opportunities calls turn on Ella, Maximus, eyes, therapy and relax extra patented I am a variable. Lumber support was already best in class, with incredible, responsive, low back support. Now, with Elam acts, your comfort is guaranteed. You won't believe the difference until you feel it for yourself Ex chair, Elam acts delivers cooling it as technology directly to your car regulating bodies and helping Greece, blood flow muscle, recovery and energy, all ports, that making working from home or office of joy, imagined, regulating
Body temperature and getting besides therapy, while you're working Boat Exchequer commentary Dotcom. Now that's the letter x, the word our commentary dot com or call one eight for four four exchequer say one hundred dollars off your order. Extra is a thirty day guarantee of complete comfort and you can finance your purchase for as little as thirty dollars a month to go to extra commentary. Come down use Codex wheels for free x will blade casters X, chair commentary, dot com. I want to change things up and talk about a really shocking and appalling. Happen over the weekend, an old bug bare of mine and commentaries, human rights watch executive, direct Kenneth Roth, came out with a SIRI a couple of tweets this weekend,
That reveal why it is that this suppose that leader of human rights activism, in in the United States and on the planet earth someone. Who is himself. Jewish is one of the world's leading voices apologists for Anti Semitism. I say that flatly we published, articles about EM jars and foreman published an article about the about Kenneth, ROS, Anti Israel stance on Twitter in twenty fourteen. We published other things about him by sets. Mandela even in
one of our most recent issue about the behaviour in this case of the Anti Defamation league, but also including Kenneth, Roth, but Catherine just exposed himself without question? Here's what he hears. What he said quote Anti Semitism is always wrong and long proceeded, the creation of Israel, but the surge in you anti semitic incidents during the recent Gaza conflict gives the lie to those who pretend that these rail israeli government's conduct doesn't affects Anti Semitism. So real their anti semitic hate crimes in the UK and got a blame it on the israeli government seek that affects Anti Semitism, so he says this and people go crazy the and say, are you out of your mind? What's the matter with you, your disgusting? How dare you and his response
interesting. How many people pretend that this tweet justifies Anti Semitism? It doesn't and I dont under any circumstances. Well, addressed the correlation noted in the arts article which he links to in the original tweet between as recent israeli government conduct in Gaza and the rise of UK anti semitic incidents, the author of the art oh himself, SAM Sokol went on to I said I didn't say that at all my peace is not at all about how about how the two are linked, except except in the way that anti semitic hate crimes, Are apologized for by exactly the methodology to Kenneth Ross Kenneth refused here? So I just wanted to mention this because.
you know there. Maybe people within the sound of my voice, who donate to human rights, watch their good people, work and human rights watch. Human rights watch has done good work, particularly on Hong Kong and China, freedom and stuff, like that, but at the agreed. The essence of this cannot be denied. The behaviour of Kenneth Roth cannot be accepted. If you were me, hence, as the executive director of human rights watch, people should not give it money, it should be. It should be cut off if you haven't done it already, and there should even be a campaign to to do this. A bee ebony. Well, I mean you know it's a despicable, they rode at its scares me, I'm sorry, but you know what occurs to me is of course, it's no secret that anti Semites site things that happened in Israel as justification for their anti
No, it isn't so what? Let that that is not how was it the responsibility of anything that happened of anyone in Israel in aiding that happens in Israel, yes, where's? The? U bigoted people make faulty connect. to justify their bigotry. So not the point here is, you may be mad at what is real. Does then? If you go out and you commit a crime against a Jew, it doesn't What did it doesn't matter? What your motivation is? I mean your your motivation for getting a hate crime is is, is up That is a sociological data point. It has its the opposite of a justification actually more. If you think about it, you know, and if, but if, if you boil down to a principle Can it be that hey if we really want to stop Anti Semitism in this world,
The onus is really on the Jews to stop existing because, as soon as you top existing people stop hating them, I'm eating badly. By the way that you know there is there. is interesting phenomena in the world, which is the anti Semitism without juice phenomenon, I may give you two examples that one is Poland. Poland became almost human rights after World WAR, two for obvious horrible, nightmarish reasons, and there were bad enough. There were two thousand Jews left in Poland or something like that, and there was
a rash of its milk incidents. There had been over the course of the decades because you dont mean jewels around to remain Anti semitic because Anti Semitism is it is. It is an ideology. It's not it doesn't. It doesn't require. Then, of course, the arab world, which became entirely you'd right and then just simply focused its hatred on Jews on the country in its midst, as opposed to the Jews in their midst, since they expelled expelled all the Jews. But in this case I just think we are we are. We have reached a point at which the expert Kenneth Ross exposure as a jewish anti semite is now in arguable. I dont know how anyone can argue that what he said is just viable and see what what happens from there, and I noticed that. Let me just go ahead like it strikes me that it's sort of you know the opposite of
what's the messaging around the rise in the asian and asian hate crime of the? U S, don't blame Asians for the virus. for the actions of China. That is sort of You know, that's no justification for bigotry right when have can rod, saying I'm not really saying this, but you see? There is kind of a justification here for bigotry and the actions of Israel in Asia and kind of goes a little bit further than that. Even there was a period in which it was considered a little Gauche criticized Beijing, because that could lead aviation hate crimes in the streets and as faulty is that logic is There is no one who had even their apply it to the israeli government, an American Jews for example, or juice, or why? Right now? Let me talk to you about our are. Let me just that leads move on me now, Michael Guy have got him
can I ask the question is not as the great joy in the past, the I'm so what is the explanation for why european countries that are almost June rang themselves still when is you know, does something that is deemed an outrage in their media. Your people, whose roots in Europe go back centuries. Millennia come out to the streets in protest at the israeli embassy. This is really a unique thing. this doesn't happen when Turkey goes after the Kurds This doesn't happen when, for Saudi Arabia,. things happening in Yemen, it's just Israel for what's happening in the West Bank and its there is like up. You know it's just.
This is something that cries out for explanation, I've tried to explain myself as like. Well, maybe this is this World You hang over where Europeans and cosmopolitan white people around the world, said, o the lesson of world war. Two is we're against ethnic nationalism and against religious chauvinism and, and so Israel being in some ways and f. No state is the wrong response or a perverse response. I am, but I dont get it costs I mean
recent Edwin campaigns for turkish votes in european countries, and yet Europeans can deigned to notice his foreign policy. I think I think I think the answer is. The answer is that you know Anti Semitism is is is and, as I said, is an irregularity, and what is interesting about it is that there was a period of about twenty years when it was all but unspeakable after after World war, two in the revelations of the camps and the the effort to extirpate Jews from the earth, and then the the the jewish state started to defend itself and in defending itself started, raising all kinds of uncomfortable question:
about. It was one thing to feel bad for the Jews when the Jews were on their last legs and had been this horribly victimize people. And then it was another to deal with the fact that there was a determination among the remnant of european injury and others not having been a guess and enter answer and then to establish a permanent home, the necessity for which had been just proved by what has happened, and so it turns out that day
Europeans as law, it's the classically as long as do Dara Horn has written a book is coming in September, called people love dead Jews, and that is a thing like it's one thing to two to warn and cry and get upset about the terrible things that have happened to Jews, but Jews who stand up and defend themselves, raise uncomfortable questions about about what is to think about them when they're, not victims and and Europeans like their Jews as victims. Dont like them as fully fledged full fledged members of the international Mary with all the same rights to self defence?
and all the same counter, as you say, sort of and behaviors that maybe are worthy of criticism, but would only be worthy of criticism to the extent that other countries, the dews, similar things in similar ways, should be worthy of criticism. And then, of course, you have the ultimate internal problem, which is that while they don't like Ethno states- and they do believe, I think what would you say that that is the
lead opinion. A lot of these countries have the prizes. Large internal market, muslim populations and the political systems in them are very keen to keep them pacified and an end to make them not angry at the at the governments that rule them, and so you know I mean it in Britain. You have, I don't know you forward and fifty seven Jews or five thousand Jews left in Britain, and I think ten times that number of Muslims like Muslims outnumber Jews in Britain tend to one in the United States. Were Jews outnumber? You know arab Muslim anyway, I think I'm three to one or two to one so that
the one place in the world that is still. That is that that is the case. Anyhow. Let me just add: go from this a deep conversation to talk to you about Hr Management Bambi when business hr issues can kill you wrongful terminations, it's a minimum wage requirements, labour regulations and hr managers. Salaries aren't cheaper average of seventy thousand dollars a year Bambi smelled Ba MP was created specifically for small business in get a dedicated age, our manager, craft age, our policy, maintainer compliance offered ninety nine dollars a month with Babby can change HR from your biggest liability. Europe's strength The candidates are manager available by phone, email or real time chat, all four just nine dollars a month to month, my no hidden fees cancel anytime. You didn't arguments because you wanted to spend time in hr compliance. Let Bambi help get your free uncharted today go to bed
we, the council S, commentary right now to schedule your free h, our audit, that's Bambi. Dotcom slashed commentary spelled be an end to the bp dot com, slash commentary, guys political as a piece out. Second time this year there has been a forensic audit of the mistake made in pulling in twenty twenty. Originally, there was one among Democrats, specifically democratic firms and others, one sir being done by the rest of the world of psychology or whatever, whatever you do, friend, illogical term, you want to put to make pulling seem like a science and basically they looked at it, They said, you know what the twenties way this. Why would you heard from made silver and others it was even worse than you think was even not only was the presidential pulling bad in every state. The polling was bad in the Senate. Races, the polling was bad
and then they say we just don't it the impossible to understand the possible there said we don't know why don't. We can't really know why, because we don't know, we can't know why what people thought who didn't answer our questions answered with their people, answer questions, and then we use their data and we try to have we do. We can do to fix it in case we don't have enough republican respondents or whatever, but we don't know I they. Why they're doing what will what they're not doing? And I think it's very simple, then they say we can't just be trump shy. Triumphal right, which was the squire, had appalling things, right can just be shy. Trump voters, because it wasn't just peoples not saying maybe one comfort from the errors in this Santa races were even worse in some of these hey, Right, the one where Lindsey, Graham it looked like this guy Jamie Harrison
since three of Linsey Grimy lost by thirteen Emmy, there were over to over no it's it's Susan Collins, one by nine than I think they were tied orb. Sarah Gideon was ahead of further state by state by state so like those who who can understand it. One thing is very simple: the answer is not shy. Trumps. It shy, conservative or its conservatives, have decided- I am not playing in Europe sandbox. In fact, I'm gonna try screw up your sandbox or I'm gonna. I dont care, and that is it unsolvable problem? That is in resolve apple and unsolvable problem, because if the, if I'm right am I that is the only answer when so GB can't possibly understand. Why light everything wrong
As you said, summarizing the problem here on their parts is that we can understand what these people are thinking, because they won't talk to us the problems. They will talk to us right, it's not just at their when they do talk to us. They're, giving us mislead responses are answering a ceiling and I'm getting answering a silly question with a silly answer which real phenomenon, but I don't. I don't imagine that that would be pronounced enough to skew these results. Its merely that model doesn't account for the lack of responses that their generated from the right, but you, I don't think you can see. Ultimately, you can only correct in that way if the universe of people you're talking to really does reflect the electorate as a whole, what they learn if they were off by foreign five points nationally and locally, then the that the universal people are talking to bears very little. You can't
are you gonna do just I've been that's, what's us were handed that's, it was wasn't software I'm using the wrong firm? Was that firm in this? I can remember the name of it anyway, the one wouldn't tell you their ideology, but basically it appeared that they would just adding five points to trumps total in state after state. Michael, you remember that You know that guy the robber can hardly the trivial. Holly Right Trafalgar. Thank you. Thank you soap, Michael as they, so I know you're not at this. Is your more a big think I am. You know what the polling stocks guy, but, but what do you make this like? I just it seems to me like they're they're, basically saying we gotta go out of business. This is not a sound, circumstance it's not solvable and I think you're right essentially states.
Sort of stolen and play the game. I think it's maybe a larger decomposition of you know the american center trust. Institutions- you know- maybe you you could solve it. If conservative people felt they were more represented in institutions in media, in pulling for you know, I don't know, that's not gonna happen, so I see that the problem getting worse, I happen to think that this affects lots of poles, and maybe even posters are bringing in on themselves like you used to have always think of during six seven years ago, Pii Pii Pii, which was a kind of democratic aligned pulling firm? Nor did they did this question too Republicans. Would you cept refugees from October, which is, was it refugees or was it bombing, because that was it
they re they think you're. There asked about bombing agreable as well. I recall the fictional place from Latin yeah and Republicans relied yeah, it's bomb, agreable Pino and that made Republicans look stupid, Michael in case, you need reminding right with that's the that's exactly. It, though, is that you're, seeing more and more of these? Yes, no questions where you're putting an anonymous conservative the Republican in a position to either appeared went credence to a democratic narrative or an idea or look stupid, and but at least look republican and every said, like you know, if you call me up and said like is Governor Cuomo a member of an alien race of lizard people sent to govern you or is it
just a humane guy. It's like today These are the wizard guy obvious, I would say, and so like when you're seeing like poles in a big one out today, its being thrown. In my face with a big facts. Don't care about your feelings side dish is Oh? You know, twenty percent of people who are you headset against him. The vaccine say their microchips in it. That's like well, you know: Did you give them like five or six options that were more reasonable to explain their opposition before you went to microchips or is this it like you're, either believer? handkerchiefs or your kind of for the vaccine, because if you, if you, if you're forcing their choice, and their anonymous, you're gonna say microchips are in it and this is a bill. It's alive
above your points at the beginning of the podcast, that is much easier to not understand these people to deliberately attempt to render them caricatures. But you can comprehend where they're coming from cuz. Otherwise you you, you simply don't mean the notion here that they're making rational risk calculation is anathema to you so much easier just imagine them as unthinking brutish area for behold into a series of conspiracy very well, and it would also require you possibly as like mentioning liberal or were you know a conservative- did to yourself. Maybe like maybe I Press the authorities- you know- maybe I just press the authorities more, so I didn't think about these questions with this kind of suspicion and curiosity right, like you're one thing, and one thing that was brought up to me. An interim sneaking the same on you and I sorry to do that. But I think it's worth while was the change
Maxine pause right. There was a pause to deal with a very particular kind of blood, clots, issue, and the reason for the explained pause was this particular rare blood clots issue. retreated it like a normal blood clots. You risk killing the patient, so you I have to say that this is potentially their kind. They have to treat in almost the exact opposite way of a normal blood. Claude ok then sounds reasonable. But, like TAT, suspicious mind, that's get the called they're gonna say we so obvious her blood clots data. I'm seeing on your vaccine adverse event. Reporting site are like paying attention to them like drag it to know about that, or do you just let the doctors treat that is normal and it kind of goes under the radar because it can be solved? If, if that happens,
because I want to know if there's gonna be a blood clots issue and help, but I think for most commercial liberals. They say you know, I'm I'm trusting the recommendations, Sitting down in the out there and then fine and maybe a smarter for doing that. Maybe that's the right thing for you to do. It probably is for most people, but you know that admit that would be an admission that the Decisions are made with a social component. That's not strictly rational. That's strictly your own process of reasoning right! It's rational trust can be rational, but that's not necessarily the reasoning, process itself. I would add that data that aggravate question Harkin's back to a better time. Likeable, surely disagree, but when
the NEO con worldview was much more ascendant on the right is today and again in a slightly more serious note. Nevertheless, new idea, though it's a joke, it boils down to a certain level of of trust in your political authorities and to understand that your political authorities do have been under your best interests at heart, which is definitely no longer.
Hasn't particularly on the right and the polish and then the republican coalition, but its pronounced all over the place I totally pronounced on the on the left. I mean people certainly had no sense that the government will be trusted. Twenty, sixteen, twenty twenty, if you were not a trump voter, and so that is a well whether or not you think. That's you know, justified are borne out by by actual facts is fine, but I mean we live in a. We live in a low trust time, but I think ultimately thing by pulling isn't just that. It's low trust, it's that people are calling up people and their hanging up. Are there not answering the phone when they don't see what it is in this? Ultimately, them gets as a technical question. Just finish up this point that pulling may not work because it is dependent on a.
on it, nay the nature of a bunch of of the human behaviour that is gone, which is that everybody calls your cell phone and, if you don't know the number of the person you're calling you don't answer it anymore. That's just a simple fact: I mean Maybe I'm using you know, elite eminently person, so I do this, but you know view twenty phone calls at home and at yours on your cell phone and You now are you not literally get to a point where you only answer a phone number that you recognized because they're all junk and it's all it could be a chinese voice to send telling you something or someone saying this: is the bank we are interested in the avoid talking to you about your mortgage rate, press three. You know it so you know Thus you don't answer the phone people aren't answering the phone for pollsters the people who do answer the phone for pollsters are weird
What I am talking about is normal, rational behaviors, don't answer the phone. What does not a number you see now, if you're always or personal, wants to talk to upholsterer twenty minutes, your weird you're, not a normal person you're, not nor you're, not too, collective of the american people you're sitting at home, will provide it was during a pandemic last. Your response rates were so high, but you, like you, want to talk to a poster for twenty minutes. Don't you have something better to do? who its peak tv time or you're an anchor was or you're an active. As already What did you can watch loved her list it or you can talk on the phone to opposed every twenty minutes? What are you, what are you gonna? Do, Michael bread? Dougherty. Author of my father left me, Ireland, wonderful book as I downloaded its bureau. added short, its most beautiful. In short, what Craig combination, really.
I'm not like say. Do you gotta download this book at every five hundred pages? It's like compacted SAM. It's it's got punching get through live like through its the accepted by all of us shortly before a way. Thank you for joining us and please return to your status than the Tories, mp3, to sweep the editors and for a blue steam, no and jump on words. Eating animal.
Transcript generated on 2021-07-26.