The COMMENTARY podcast discusses the weekend of unrest that followed the one-year anniversary of white nationalist-instigated violence in Charlottesville, Virginia. Despite vastly outnumbering the white nationalists who showed up to commemorate the heinous anniversary, many of the anti-racist demonstrators were not content to be peaceful. The podcast explores what animates these violent movements. Also, the podcast unpacks the increasingly serious row between the U.S. and Turkey.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
some guy welcome to the Commentary magazine podcast today is Monday August thirty two thousand and eighteen, I'm John POD, hordes the editor of Commentary Magazine, which we as always agreement our Senor under high Abe, I John, nor Ross the rsoc that are high Noah by John and so are bamar a senior writer heights, or a back from a conference on religious liberty, and his he's freer than ever, unlike the red, us
speaking of freedom and liberty in first human rights, and all of that there was a classic pseudo, not event. Our set of events this weekend in Washington and Charlottesville to commemorate the delightful for one year anniversary of the Unite the right rally that turn into a nazi. NEO Nazi Riot had led to laughing lead the death of Heather higher end and the. Alarming side of tiki, torched losers, losers screaming you now the Jews will not take us over and all that so Everybody was so panicked leading up to this, and this could be huge thing. America was divided again, and so in D C, the the
night. The writers manage to draw the grand total of twenty people, whereas the anti unite the right part of the rally there were. You know, many orders of magnitude more than were at the June at the night, the right rally had a great way in the pressure of describing how small their numbers were, which is what the day just large enough that they, just big enough for their gratuity is included in the Czech, so Why you, where we had was days of lead up in in media circles, on what was going on. Who were these people what it happen, since Charlottesville. What's going on, how is it going to be? Who what can they be starch? Should they be Bob, blah blah blah and, of course, yet again as demonstrated that the the
american taste for extremist rally is very much a extreme minority almost come. Amethysts comic right, I mean they're. There must have been fifty times. Number of cops surrounding these twenty people concerned about. You know the white civilization being destroyed No, are you, however, is this? we get was not without incident. The thing was that the incident wasn t you wasn't the. Why power in a white nationalist NEO Nazis, doing things it was their antagonists. Yes, us so much so that it seemed like the the White Nationalist, rally was sort of ancillary adjusted earlier it ceased to matter, even it didn't really even matter
for the events of the night before the event where there was a series of Ethel episodes and then at some point in this whole rally, the White Nationalist slipped out the back door and left all their counterparts. Esters and policing journalist fighting with each other. Prior to this event, both in Charlottesville in Virginia and in Washington DC. There were gatherings Romero. I attended by the programme We peaceful demonstrators, the vast majority of which were peaceful demonstrators, but there was a very large contingent. Numerically significant over eighty five types who were violent, aggressive anti these anti american? That's just mommy, saying they're, saying that other third they're, the ones who are chanting slogans about how all police are racist and how there should be no USA, no borders and a wall nope, no more. There's no wall, No USA at all was one other fancy chance and the police were attacked another there. Is this a statistic out there? This is only one person over the course of these events was
I stood, and that is true- one individual was arrested for physical assault in the form of spitting on somebody by video evidence alone. For anyone He was following these events, for example, on twitter, so a variety of police officers assaulted both in Washington these. And in Charlottesville that did not work building arrests, but we nevertheless attacks and you saw media who were attacked their cameras attacked and one guy had his audio equipment cut viper. Test or in another see reporter was attacked by the these protesters, so it wasn't non eventful. There were event pretty disturbing events. I just hasten to add that from the cable news footage, it seemed that many of the police officers, who were the target of of this abuse from bluffing activists, as far as I can tell it, he's a significant number of whom were african american and hispanic and and and deserve supposedly anti racist anti racist
activists. Well, what can you do? I mean what we have here. A horse in the anti for movement is a through line that really began in the west in two thousand, with the protests in Seattle against the G20 summit, which people may remember devolved into a tens of thousands of person riot outside the suitability of the days with a dubious here, I'm sorry the G20 was the yet another one which I think was in Vancouver and ninety nine Seattle, the veto, and then we have included Vancouver later that this is really the birth of this serve like revolt against Contemporary capitalism and the idea basically are a revival of an idea that had been discredited really on the left. After that
spasms of violence in the late sixties and early seventies and the United States that it will just it was you. You were justified. The improving violence against these gigantic behemoth institutions and against the West in general, because otherwise you were totally powerless I think you know, as evidenced in the in the chance that that nor recounts here when yours when they're saying things like No! U S at all we're talking about a strain of of anarchist, active really and make sure you're not even saying that free forget about the fire in the anti file. Your at your your sings. No, no, no state structure at all here that at that it's it's it's very idea and concept is is wrong and he asked me about if you ve ever given I'm taking a dive into the intellectual movement that supports these. These sort.
Activities. That is precisely right is that they derive their rum, their intellectual foundations from there and there the ethos generally from early twentieth century left wing movements, anarchist movements, all of which were violent. And targeted assassinations where the objective and general social destabilization to achieve a political of ten and that's people like Natasha Leonard over at the nation mud, Jones is less than condemned the tory profiles of these individuals. It's it's! It's not! common to see some people site, for example, the website it's going down, which is a repulse, of Anti far outlet. If you ve ever read any of their material dear violent revolutionary screens that are beyond disgusting, the sort of things your girl, what is definitely a fringe movement, but it's one in which the press has taken. Our less interest than the white nationalist movements. We no definitive
leave the intellectual foundations for that sort of thing. Wait a minute I mean it depends on what you d find it ask as they take. They took eight enormous interest in it in an earlier form when it was the Occupy movement, which has some elements of this then morphed into the anti for anti when or how we want to pronounce it anti fine tee for movement. The occupied the movement was in twenty eleven. Twenty two was man of the year was time's man of the year, as I recall, and if you remember how that works here in New York, there was a vest pocket park down by Battery Park city that had we legal status that allowed at essentially to become an encampment, a kind of homeless, encampment, so Cati Park where people serve lived for months and then and were supposedly taking. We aim at the
capitalist system that has led to the meltdown. There were wealthy by the way that, on average, they occupy a people and occupy camps were more likely to be making more of the poverty line. While that arise group that an end as often has proved to be the case since the nineteen sixty them varies over every other reasons. Enormous numbers of them were under a helpless, I think when they finally broke up the occupy cabin, Zuccotti park it was like half of them were basically undercover cops were there to sort of make sure that nothing terrible happens and they were like lot. They were also sleeping sleeping bags line, passing rent paperback novels from nineteen eighty three and sitting around supposedly expressing their deep, belligerent, said to me: against american capitalism in capitalism in general and the antique upon and then, of course, occupy spread. There was occupy all over the country
all over the world, but there was that there was a particular northern California, as you might imagine, was a hotbed of Aachen, hi activity- and I think, that's actually where the anti form part of this. If you serve start in ninety million with the w here, you go through to occupy Wall Street. And then the occupy stuff elsewhere and then antithesis rises, particularly in California, and we have these events in in twenty six seem before, though, tromp election blamed on the Trump election, but which really were around San Jose, you think you're, referring to his eventful arcas by any means necessary bam, witches The organization behind the thing talk about all the time, which is this event in Sacramento, in which permitted white nationalist demonstrators diamonds in front of the state. Capitalism were met by these
this primordial organization that came to essentially become and the outfit of Anti Father ratify in every every way? can identify them. This, the the institution didn't exist at the time, but they became that when they re engaged. You know they rallied under hammer and sickle banners and that it brought no then blunt weapons in in the white nationalist, were ready for them and engage in a knife right in front of the California capital. Just but two hundred people just shooting now shooting fighting each other in the streets and drawing blood Oh, I think it's important to say the commentary magazine has since the birth of the serve the Trump movement in twenty fifteen and twenty six seem. We published article after article on the birth of the all right on the philosophy of the all right dangers of the all right on the mainstreaming of the all right now horrible. This was So we are next to no one in our condemnation and abide by the way, also deep, negative
Sperience, is of you now being hassle. Hold on social media and emails and all that so we extra, no one in our condemnations and experience instead of trying to warn against the threat of this intellectual movement. Gaining some kind of you know foothold in the United. Its, which I think gives us particular credit. Billowy when we say that, it is shameful how little attention has been given to the fact, That there is a rising threat of domestic violence and terrorism on the left that is gaining and we talked about it last week, gaining a certain measure strength from the idea that trumpets, so you equally dangerous, that rules of
regular civil conduct, an appropriately legal behaviour in protest at all. That should be suspended because something it's gotta be done and if any veto. What is that thing than that for good men to do nothing. What's all that is necessary for evil to prevent exactly is for good men to do and so that basically the day You have a phrase like that order, as Robert Moses used to say, if the ends don't justify the means, what does so I think we have a lot of as a way. So when we focus on. This are focusing on this with an idea that the breakdown is common right, the the the heat generated on the right. You know in defending the indefensible or whitewashing the indefensible has to be seen also in light of the same things being done on the left, with a great
feel less attention being paid them. And now. You think that because the vial once this last weekend was proud of exclusively on the left that the media that so it so focused on this first year anniversary may decide to reconsider in future how much attention they want to be paid, maybe because I think the internal contradictions are gonna be difficult to ignore. At the same time as we were having this cycle about violence on the left in Charlottesville in Washington DC this weekend, New York City Bill, mayor, build a lousy of appeared on CNN with brain still there, where he delivered a diatribe.
Against Fox NEWS Channel and the New York Post, saying that they are exacerbating racial tensions deliberately and provocatively, and that they are essentially fake news. It is something that he has been saying since two thousand and sixteen has been trying to ice out New York Post reporters for a long time calling them not real news outlets, picking up where the Obama administration left off again saying they are responsible for racism, Europe, which is a uniquely inciting thing to say This is again on Sunday tat. He had his security detail right visit glee remove a newer poster. I have ass, presents a piece in the back and that's gonna link All these things together. So dear dear listener check that one out but yeah, I at some point you're going to have this of Fortunately it might take a catalyzing event or some sort of a galvanizing event which I hope never occurs, but it will become very difficult for the press to ignore the extent to which There is a fringe on the left, which is
ignored and allowed to fester. That is an amazing, a particular wing of the Democratic Party in the liberal left, which has champions in the form of very prominent people like the mayor of New York City, no small by national beans there who are advocating a compromising line. That is the similar in fact indistinguishable from Donald Trump effort to demonize them call them enemies of the people and galvanise. Perhaps the unhinged you don't see through this is an act may be motivated to some sort of acts of heinous violence on the back of it. That similarities are too hard for me to ignore, and I think at some point there are gonna, be it's gonna, be possible for them to so participate rather shift away from it before the Hague confront them it's interesting as is no scriveners. It occurs to me that almost f magically as movements core gets more
climate is left generally is more radical, were seems view of socialism. Now is becoming common pot once mainstream right and left what so the movements for EAST Moon still needs has to have fringes, just by virtue of dynamic, so so fringes you're gonna get that much more radical. So I think we are certainly headed for gallop today, reported that in the Democratic party, socialism is now viewed more favourably than capitalism. Democrats right, that's not fringe self. So what what? What then? Where does that leave the fringe of Sis II? I wanted to give us a fair accounting of our of our friends, elsewhere in the media who have been arm were alarmed by the all right, because I've seen as John
two. We had experiences of the same thing, our selves over the period in two thousand fifteen. To doesn't sixteen when they all right really seem to be some movement poised to take over a large chunk of the right was, it seem very coherent, vague rescue and it was apparent when, if you are a conservative journalist who is critical of Trump, while Trump could so potentially be stopped doing the job you primaries. If you criticise tromp immediately, you got these. I dont know if there are bought or what percentage were Botz, but these responses where it was tromp in an S S outfit saying you need to go, and there was a gas chamber behind him or Pepe the paid, a frog with Donald Trump hair whatever, and it was really alarm I mean I remember, I looked back at my tweets and I said into doesn't fifteenth I said, the only people icy untutored defending trunk seem to be kind of outright cranks
And that was my experience I mean you know it turned out to be the that, as it happened, that it was about two hundred people who showed up and our lives. Will ten percent of that showed up to Washington unite the right this year? So as a physical movement where people would be willing to show up? is much smaller than it seen. But the alarm at the time I think was justified but then you won't see you know similar alarm. I dont think from similar quarters about Anti FA. I happen to M reading or I read a history of the year. Nineteen sixty eight for something that I'm I'm writing, which seemed we shall appear in our October issue, actually not this coming issue, but that Vienna, this very to give us historian of radicalism in the nineteen sixty is a document boats using statistics and anecdotes that a lot of the parents of violent sixty eight others who were themselves either of the sort of the responses
laughed or they were just mere liberals, whatever they were we're. Always their attitude was I dont support what my kid stands for, but I get his anger you know I like I wouldn't go out. I wouldn't use my freedoms the way my son is doing the joining Sds and what have you, but the kids hearts in the right place. That was the the attitude and I think he was Antifa. It's the same. I mean a lot of these guys in the responsible media like it's terrible but boys. You know, tromp is bad too. In Dino. It's the hard in the right place thing. I think that's that's very similar you're that all the time it is the hearts in the wrong place, and this is what an innocent man. So this was interesting about the collapse of standards and the and the the guard rails in the fact that there are no. You know that, but that we're we're increasingly living in a in a society and culture that that's scorns limits is that that's general TSO Donald
is there, an expression of a reflection of or an m an advance or over all three of the kind of distress of public trust in in media and an instant tensions that seem to be designed to Strict? Is freedom of movement in some fashion or other, including parts of the republican Party? That may not? You know fall in line with him. Similarly on the right. You have this on the line excuse me, you have this sense, weird blurring of the lines in which you, on the one hand, have Vienna the elected mayor of New York City or the elected mayor of Oak Lindore. These various other places active encouraging a kind
always civil disobedience, but are actively trying to block the ability of the federal government to enforce federal laws in their jurisdictions, and you know trying to block ice and others from doing what is legal. De there, not only the right but their obligation to do that. Represents another form of these guard rails, coming down and if you have a situation in which You have enough socialism starting to look good to people, because they don't really know what socialism has in part or now they haven't, there's no real world expression of it that they can look at it's all. A fantasy Similarly, I think, Some of you said the earlier. It's like there's a there is actually a great tradition of romanticizing punching nazis right, that's great punch in Lahti.
It's a fantastic thing. You know, but there are punching nazis. There the add to the anti for rally in Washington, the turnover Eleanor Charles, while leaving anywhere near now there this programme whenever mood punching cars. They were attacking hops who, in an effort, to make sure that nothing spiral out of control had been delete had been told deliberately by their police departments to stand down. Not defend themselves to let this burn out well because in their fear the world wide, ash analyse, and the few twentysomething cranks who showed up to unite the right merely represent the harder edge. The Morse explicit edge other or the face of a system itself, that is basically fascist. So we know that there is a real difference.
To their mothers, a blurring between the cops and the end of the war. The right in their might. I would also add I notice, in some of the cup, bridge. To on- and I happened to be in the lounge- their American Airlines lounge for much longer time that I had hoped for because of flight delays. I was watching CNN, which on Saturday at least, was wall to Wall coverage of this thing and a lot of the pundits they brought on and a lot of the anchors stop saying. White nationalism after a while they sort of just started nationalism, which I think is necessary if you want to create the impression that the disease is a much bigger problem than just the White Nationalist, because if you collapse all nationalism into white nationalism than a lot of Africans and are some sort of quasi fascist, so these distinctions are during both on the left and among their media allies. In fairness, though, I have to say that I recall
like you know on the right through public Steve Ban in particular, He was eager to sort of blur that line for his own reasons. He wanted. He won't yet he wanted say: oh no, I'm just a nationalist IDA, right now I have nothing to do with the White Nationalist Wink wink. It was. It was a way of of ingratiating aims, I remember banishing things like an american ashes can include a black man, who's been displaced by illegal immigrants, so I mean I think we have all come to the conclusion. Or there is this as we try figure out how identity politics has taken over serve a married, the american understanding of love, our public spaces and our public life, that you know the danger that the identity and did not perceive is in the is in the constant insistence that race- and you know, race was the foremost and paramount
in that matter in the world and that therefore you you were to count by race. You were right to judge by race. You were right to look to gag in particular legal advantage through race that event truly white people were going to develop white consciousness that the presumption was that race was only something that had meaning. To minorities and people who were not part of the larger white majority and it turned out- and I still think- that's mostly true- the United States, but a significant enough people have grown up with this bathed in this this fear that the idea that, if we want to find you your raise them. If your white, that's, your re, said you you didn't
it was to be born mile. I would submit- and I I read about this in my forthcoming book on the topic- that the people who think that way, I believe that white consciousness is already a thing, and now, whether you know it or not, you are steeped in and bathed in white consciousness, you have white consciousness and therefore some sort of retributive judicial system needs to be developed like a truth and reconciliation commission. In a sense, this is a post, conflict society and therefore a second track. Justice system needs to be designed in right who addressed that conflict. The United States is not a post conflict. Society is not like post reconstruction to marry which did have indeed design retributive justice aspects that are inadequate to the anglo american tradition. But they do believe that this is the case today. Eric inciting wow. They believe it, and so you have the counter attack from people who say I didn't do nothing. I'm just we hear live in my life and you
we're coming at me and telling me that I you know that this kind is no longer mine and you it's now your time and all that. Well, I don't see why you get it and not me I'm I didn't graduate from high school, you know I am living here in the you know, in the steel below in the in the rust belt, in the upper bid west and my life doesn't look so great to me. So I don't know you know, and I should be getting things too and looks to be like one of my favorite things that is said on the part of all right mix, and is fascinating. Is this thing where they say we want the same benefits that minorities get like food stamps food, Stamps are not racially tested of their only means tested so why people lower than why people get them and vastly greater numbers than than blackened hispanic people. But that is
not known to people who have been, who have been will lose around a victim culture that you know has centred on the victimization of minorities, and now they want their victimhood to nearly nearly not every, but nearly every sphere of cultural endeavour and of life. You are reward. For asserting asserting pieces of your identity, that you don't choose, whether that's race, sexuality or gender, and if that's the case at some point, you know why males are typical of whatever the Trump guy will would want. To assert his be. He wants to get his share of the agents, terrorism. It does make it sound like a sort of an avoidable condition. That's been imposed on these people and they made a choice to be white nationalist crime. Oh no! No! I'm not exactly aigrettes argument them. I'm saying that what's interesting about the world in which
We are now living is this birth of something that should not exist, which is why consciousness, and in that sense the people who talk about white privilege are correct. I mean, I don't believe, racial conch IBM. Look, I'm a Jew, and I have very, strong jewish identity and jewish consciousness? But I don't think that that as an American is not a defining attribute of my of my life as an American. However, you know if you in me in the world. Looking at you know who has white privilege em it's one of the comedies to me that people would look at me and say: will look. You are just a wash my privilege. Look at you, you're a classic, a classic. You know the recipient of white privilege, and I'm, like you, know how happy that would make my grandparents to know My grandparents, my father's parents who came over the ages of four team in seventeen from
Galicia and you now? Barely it out spoke It was with a thick in a shack, said and never felt themselves to be fully part of America. They were citizens, there is there, but they spoke give us all their like the notion that that there is that their grandchild would The world would run no distinction with him in a Rockefeller. That would be like the most amazing you could ever possibly imagine why, A country a country where a Jew becomes a recipient of Euro elite white privilege. Mean, and that is part of the story, of course, which is that the stories that we tell ourselves deny the people We are told the victim story agency and the ability to serve overcome temporary circumstance aboard my last week about Sarah John, the New York I'm opinion writer. You know that that, rather than tell herself holy cow, look where look look, what happened to me I was, I was emigrate from sir
of Korea. Five years old, speak English and wasn't even early twenty years later, I'm like on the staff of the most important newspaper in the world, but she's I have to tell herself there. You're not allowed to tell users was to look at the parts of you that support? Thirdly, are being held back and suppressed? It's a fascinating, not that. It's necessarily a thing that you can't look at an stress. It sort of like one of the objections. People have had over the last century to the therapeutic culture, which is that if you are in therapy or fear and talk their whatever that Is it really wise to spend time years going? over those parts of your life, in which you made unhappy in which bad things happen to you in which year you know, you'll. You developed internal conflict, neuroses is that healthy? Or should you sort of credit card,
stood off and try to focus on the? positive and look forward instead of spending time as an adult. Looking back at your youth and trying to isolate on the things that traumatized you and theirs and each has its merits like use, you can't just ignore you know if you have a If you have it in psychological terms, if you like, have a bolder chain to your leg and you're like the live going through life with this, you know, bolder chain to your leg, and you don't try to sawed off so that you can like walk freely. That would be stupid, but for all you have as the bolder and all there is to use your leg. Then you're now
seeing the world right. I also think there is this element, which are our friend rest shouted his. I think crisply formulary says if you dont, like the religious right, you'll you'll like see posts, religious right, even less, because you know the promise of let's Abraham I urge you to christian civilization. Is that, although we may differ in our race and in our gender, and are this that, nevertheless for all children of god- and therefore you know endowed with certain inalienable
rights and so forth. If you notice among among the outright- and I guess the left in their own way, but especially the outright is, there's this. Actually, this profound hostility to social conservatives any than genitals, because they'll say Chris, we should return to our kind of nordic pre christian roots which were on the gods, were essentially God of Europe. Geography and race was not an all, encompassing God to whom every one set of paid obeisance, but our God, our Nordic, whatever type of mythological creature and story, and they these specifically hey Christianity for its universalism improvise. Well, that's how they are enemies of the enlightenment apart, although most people now who talk about the most people who are now criticise, critics of the enlightenment are crazy.
Nightmare from a religious frame and which they say the enlightenment was was a secular, rising, revolution that ended up. Removing morality removing morality or the notion of pursuing the good either in aristotelian ways where you pursue the good to have virtue to have a good life for you pursue the good, because it's what God commands you to enter. There's a lot of takes of that on the on the right that that the enlightenment did bad things, but on the on the all right, not the philosophic, right, but the all right. The idea is- and this is where there very congruent with national socialists, Third Reich theory that there was a Pre enlightenment time, when in a pre enlightenment Hagen time in which people You know, worship the soil and had gods of the earth and gods of the water and gods and they and they had a
rear expression of themselves and damp device shouldn't to their into rationality, understanding that things are rational and things aren't fair and I mean all madness. I mean the there are serious religious, enlightened critique of m of the enlightenment. Is serious thing. I think it's very wrong, headed but its sphere. That mean that all right, guys these gothic on the idea of risk of a universal God whose both the God of Abraham Jacob in Iceland and the God of Jesus Christ day that that it unites people who shouldn't be united we have different interests as different races will that to write so, but I've been in the end, its all pre its pagan. Yes, I mean that the oddity. That's why it's gibberish, I mean you know the way that the third, the re, that the way that not the historicity was gibberish. You know this world that they were written, reinventing, didn't
never existed, it was. It was a delusional fantasy and yet led to great evil. Doubt it may be that the that that stuff, that guy was immense. Yes, Sir Gold Bonteen as a whole many sculled bugger that other guy. These two theorists who write rope. European, what European Yarmouth Right somebody Lawrence Jarvan anyway, they re quite brilliantly and an crazily. I don't think they wipe brilliantly. They mimic academic fair enough. Ok, forget it really overburdened prose. That is that intended that the the province of the academy in order to be taken seriously by people like us, when nothing is actually said. Ok, I appoint taken so, but the point is that you know they were trying try to develop a kind of alternative theory of Sicily.
Already in existence out of their bizarre us. That was an effort to create something go here, out of their bizarre set of hatred that our grievances right right and these and these deep grievances about how the World wasn't going the way they wished to and that, rather than maybe that storing them to understand that their understanding the world might be very distorted they wish to serve create. Some kind of Purifying fire at would bring things back to the and there is a right left. You know real convergence in the end. There philosophies. One of them I forget, where was, I think, was Menzies wrote about half of the year?
moral authority imputed to the allies was put completely an undue towards treatment. The indiscriminate korean and violent treatment and way in which the Germans were treated from both the air and land campaigns. When some Yosemite civilians were decimated by indiscriminate bombings and that there is generally this thread of technocracy through their writings about that. The need for a sort of aristocracy, a sort of citizens area that is, above not just in the genetic aristocracy, whether Techno, a technocratic aristocracy that will be able to to sort of guide society, as though it were a company like there, the shareholders, and there is a legal despot in the form of the ceo, and that is how these adage jumping, because you know in one of the most famous peace
of conservative popular cultural criticism of the twentieth century, which is Whittaker Chambers, Review of ATLAS, shrugged IRAN's ATLAS shrugged national Review, an extraordinary piece of writing vicious hostile enraged at at Rand His point was that if you followed Rand thoroughly, the end of her thinking her message, as to the gas chambers go now, it does mean that he meant that she was a Nazi. I ran was a Jew woods, but that the logic of the of her ideas about selfishness and atheists, em and answer like a world run by the Genius was if the world is run by a genius. The people who are not Jean Dean geniuses in the end are gonna, be marched into the gas chambers and euthanize, because there No value and no use and
If you ve never seen this peace, maybe Google! It is one of the most fantastic, take downs of anything ever to the fiscal of a lifetime. But you know it does come to that that where you have this, these weird convergence is of even Lapham, libertarian and libertarian. Send the coolest like able saying like the and the way the Libertarian take government and, on the other, in some way from the right and then, of course, you have. The anarchists analyse wait government from the left but in the end those movements are always taken over by I and anybody who devote themselves to two thought at this deep level is probably part of a very small minority of the life of the mind. Is The two, a narrow selection of of people in those people, have a tendency to work themselves up into fanaticism.
Ok, I want to pose one thing that I mentioned earlier before. The show that I this new invocation of violence or like the excuses. For violence, or you know both you now from serve Trump fans of that was funny that he would call on people to be the protesters around. Alleys, or this version of anti forbidding people up rallies that it dovetails with the only answer. There's this we'll violence, people excuse and then on everywhere you turn. You are told that things that are not violence, meaning arguments or speech, are vital. Once and must be suppressed because they are harming people as
they might have to be suppressed. The way you would support, we would arrest somebody for beating somebody else up and so that which is not. Violence is condemned as violence. That which is violence is excused as some legitimate form of expression Am I met you this possibility, which is that american since ninety ninety four, when the crime rate plummeted, we- now had almost a quarter century of living after after thirty years of living in a climb, riddled society in which everybody felt like they were at risk to period in which there there is a generation that has grown up, not knowing that there was a lot of violent crime or have to make any changes in their lives movements. Anything like that to deal with crime that that crimes
become aesthetic size. So, as I say like so, you can stand our college kids. Some say your words are injuring me because you ve never seen anybody injured. You never seen anybody heart by anything now. Unless it was an accident. You ve never had a family member in a hospital because they were mugged or shot or something like that, and so to you. Violence is metaphorical, and so It's fine, like you, couldn't have gotten away with rhetoric and logic like that in the nineteen eighties. If the, if the ideas had been present, big, as it would have been an offence against the tens, thousands of people who were victims of violent crime every year that hundreds of thousands of people and you you would be like belittling at you, be turning it into you'd, be turning it into some sort of comedy, but we ve lived now why enough in a world in which violence is relatively scarce or be no crime is relatively scarce. That we can put.
And the things that are in crime are, and we can also pretended an hour crime aren't because they they still have no effect on US number were also living. I mean I'm agreed I'm inclined to agree that we we live in a very delicate and age in that produces its on disorders, one of them being this kind of moral, flattening and ends of failure to see distinctions between merely demurely offensive and genuinely violent. On the other hand, we also live in an age of of unbelief, Oh brutality in popular media and it gets should have more so every year, so those same kids will watch the most horrific horror, movies and and regularly commit essentially a genocide and in view games on data a basis and we live in that I mean in the real world we ve lived with with a kind of ISIS like terror. Certainly in Europe are no as much in the U S, but certainly not
and these random shootings and so forth, but that I suppose, and that the victims of those are so in a way are so limited that it's not pervasive everyday crime like we had an cecy seventies, eighties, that everybody, everybody in the United States had to fear and legitimate that they might be a victim or their family met. Somebody would somebody that they knew something bad happened to burn. Marie Robbery. Mugging shoot it whatever all over the country everywhere. So that was one of the problems with the efforts to kind of gin up a kind of rage against school shootings, not the school shootings are the most horrible things in the world, but they are by definition, despite the fact that they seem like they're everywhere. They are, of course, not every
they are isolated events and their bit. They happen almost ran. They happen geographically, randomly so there's nothing you can do now. You can then say that will have. Weird psychological effect on people that they think maybe could happen or not but I think it's all very abstract, but you walk down the street in the city in the United States and nineteen seventeen, you were not safe. I, wherever you were whatever the city, was pure You were not safe, that's not to say that day, you're gonna get mugged, but you were there. This action was as though you were living in Hawaii, where the volcanoes we're going off at maybe maybe the lava was giving somehow role onto your without you knowing it, but I would say the same goes for hers spot. Fascism, everywhere or threats to democracy. These days. You know when when there's a political outcome that penal, my particular laughed it's it's it's
threat to our democracy. These are By and large people, Loo and twenty eighteen dont know from threats item I actually think that's limited to the left alone. I don't really isn't typical of the right wing. Dial up you, even among assuring proponents, throughout the Obama years, at every end, now branches of veto there? b, I is threatened right to deal the deep state right right if you like, but if they republic and I was absent, apps actually Tobin authorities and the people on the right talking at the deep state, they don't know from up a police state. You know like a deeply on the estate. You know why go to Turkey, I gotta. Do it right. We're gonna talk about Turkey in a minute, but before its arguer by Turkey. Let's talk about limiting club. Are advertiser on today's podcast for decades credit cards have been telling us to buy it now pay for it later with interest. Despite your best intentions, that interests can get out of control fast
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Michael Reuben away, I called Turkey from ally to enemy take over of Turkey by by even was wretched rigour, wretched red chap Tiree of air. To one the now, president for life, but you know the first successful religious Lee activated candidate end hundred years in Turkey. After the profound Lee Secular, rising efforts of added to modernize Turkey by being openly hostile to religion and trying to separate religion, every aspect of civil life, ETA wants or clause his way into power as a as somebody who is respect for love and echoing of islamist tendencies, eyes now and empower thing for fifteen or sixteen years,
Obama, tried to seduce them by by you say: we have similar route and stuff like that and that didn't work- and you know you them- declared himself president for late one three elections a basically ram election. That, Madam president, for life now is control of all the institutions of government he's been in certainly hostile to a free press as a response to the coup attempt in twenty six team, he arrested forty five thousand people, something like that and in another hundred thousand, who are police officers, judges, prosecutors, police officers? Ralph Iron were fired and why I mean it was like the law in some ways, the largest purge per in our numerically in the history of anything all at once and now. Finally, the United States is expressing its dissatisfaction and anger with Turkey's behaviour, but
slightly at in a way that is now all of a sudden causing a massive economic crisis in Turkey, just in the space of a couple of days, but it's weird, what its whether this is a member of NATO. This is still, you know, normally an ally, the United States, although doesn't feel like it so what's going on here, So this traces back to October or November of twenty. Sixteen, I believe, when one day an american evangelical pastor named Andrew Brunson, who had been preaching the gospel in them in the city of his mere on the western coastal. Turkey was called into it to a police station by the Interior Ministry.
And according to the pastor and his lawyers, he thought that the Interior Ministry was finally about to grant him Turkey or citizenship after he had spent more than two decades living there and enduring those two decades, even a model resident of Turkey, but instead he and his wife were detained. No explanation of what the charges were immediately. The wife was released two weeks later, but they help Pastor Brunson aims.
Of the initial in solitary confinement and then since then, up till now you know the more recently day they a week or so ago. They they release them into house arrest, but for about two years he's been in prison and the charge of the accusation is that he is a member of the Golan network. Grew land is Fichu local Annie's. This is Lompoc Guru, Slash Mystic, who had been an ally of president ART one and the his justice and Development Party for a long time together they teamed up and how purge the establishment secularists out of there. Out of the establishment, but more recently they turned against each other, because obviously they both want power as two rival islamic movements and many serious people, not just one supporters, believed it did
let us have some role in the attempted coup in two thousand sixteen. But the idea that pastor Brunson himself was a good leninist or cooperate with with gulags seems really sketchy. And, as secretary of state, my compare said, the Turks haven't produce any solid evidence to tie him to go there and there's no reason to think why he would write. So here we are many reasons to be angry, Turkey, you know implacably hostile to Israel. It seems to be up to no good in Syria, there's all sorts of stuff going out with the Turks that are bits, bad and and also era, one so area ones most of airlines political success. Where Turkey, famously there has been an economic that had been an economic basket case for ever I mean was the fragile sick d, accuracy and
we know of the east now, no longer democracy, but he, but whatever happened, and, however, he did it matter really know how, but though the economy Vastly really liberalisers, I mean he was initially clean, very much clammy. He was elected because he was the mayor, the elected mayor of Istanbul, and he did tremendous job. He beautified the city he cleaned up local government, you really mean any as it as an initial elected them, small, be democratically really one his chops. You know he really approve this job, so silly economy of the nation? Just you know like roared, particularly cap roaring, while all the rest of Europe
through these terrible gyrations after the two thousand and eight meltdown currency strengthen you know their use. For the first time I went to Turkey and in making ninety eight or thereabouts, a big MAC would cost you. You know three million turkish liquor, but because of inflation, and now you know more recently, it's it's a strong economy, five here too the dollar right. So so it's a whole. It's been a whole new story has brought prosperity to. Turkey is spread the wealth and a lot of ways, and all that, but in Russia, bonds to the jailing of the minister. Finally, in the refusal of the of the Turks whom
They have gotten out others ahead of their skeezers, a local official who went crazy or you know this often happens in some of these confrontations. Where somebody does something stupid or you know, and then can, and then the government can't back down for fear of looking weak or like they're giving in, and so there is the stalemate, and so the Trump Administration imposed harsh terror. Actually tariffs, punitive tariffs as an effort to pressure turkey into into letting Bruton go right, and so. And the lira. The turkish lire went bonkers. It like an hour's current you now, basically, country has gone base they either into some inflationary recession. In the space of
four days or saw the correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the currency crisis preceded these sanctions. The irish leading about WAR Sutherland Congo- it was at least two weeks ago that they prohibited the trade of dollars. Now I think or no, but it wasn't Turkey? Things have gone worse for Turkey, but even if things going bad, this worsening arena fell off a cliff at once now Turkey was very attractive for foreign investment and till air to one's sir. Dictatorial regime became clear and then you know a lot of western investors started getting cold feet for obvious reasons which is like you don't want best in Russia anymore either has who knows who was gonna nationalize or take your money away or around you're, turkish business part.
That's another when J, that's another huge danger here is the potential for this to spread, and when people get the jitters about emerging markets, it can happen in a more global way, that its statutory asian market yet down right now, because you feel Riah so so the question is: is, is the question you pose young? The pressure is United Justice and pass the runs cause me is the Trump administration acting in a strange way, by making this the focal point basically aging economic jihad against a nominal ally in ITALY. Is there a broader strategy here was just? Is this a sop? Look I mean I'm very sympathetic to pass runs We are raised about, as our commentary has four but and as are we all and we and and there is no question that the United States should take action- you american citizen, Is being held, you know
and what appeared? spurious chart, no charges, you just being held, you know. Turkish here isn't fears that we know about turkish prisons. There was a report on from midnight. Last Thursday, revealed pretty conclusively how around our trump, including jumbotron craft. It is a very meaty resolution that would be emerging from the NATO summit and then rushed to get everybody a NATO alliance, all twenty nine states on board before Donald Trump landed, so he couldn't make it up and the site. The signs statement was taken care of done deal long before Donald Trump became a part of anything we're people who watch foreign policy in the trump error have been confused by the extent to which Donald Trump Behaviour and statements and rhetoric do not aligned with the administrations policies, and I think it's fair to include two years at and that its because
Donald Trump is not the last word in his administration when it comes to foreign policy from everything from russian sanctions and the containment of a relaunch of Moscow to this NATO statement to possibly up to an income, link sanctions on Turkey, where from all accounts are we have don't troubles? Very admiring of everyone and his government and his particularly autocrat approach that he loves tariffs so you tell it only tell him. You tell me to put a terrified him. That's like get out like telling your kids, this there's an ice cream coach travel God with the door that case a cognitive dissonance right now there are lives, he loves autocracy. You buddy lessons tat good. There is Eric sections, but in general I think it's fair to conclude that animal trump has at least outsourced or passively, or otherwise the conduct of american foreign affairs to the people.
Around him and like them or not, that's not a great idea to have a president who is not believed to be the last word, and his administration and actors will take advantage of that of Haiti's a whole lot of this regulation, which is the worst. The very most dangerous thing in foreign affairs is is calculate well here. You have an example of a right and we have an example of it in Brunson stream and that this could the whole thing is likely, so What kind of a misguided, certainly miscalculation about how about how we were gonna, be a paper tiger and weren't going to respond, but where I am to what you said now, is that he's not the final war at last where it, except when he is so. There is no last word in the They, of course, is the last word because he's the present United States. That is not the last word because when he chooses not to enter, let things go, they work and trot.
Glee without his involvement, but that makes things worse we're like if you knew that basically foreign policy was being run by palm pale. For example, then Pompey. Oh then that would be fine, but if you don't know
were pompiers runs it until drums does not want to do that and then he has spent six months doing something they gets blown up in three seconds. Then that's not good. I think he hears the the upshot in terms of what the what's driving this sudden anti turkish thrust. One, I think, is the dead passer Brunson, rightly is a cause of labour among many american Christians and avenge Opel's, especially so you know it is partly a sop to to let a J suck cycles of the world and Jerry Fall. Well, maybe like me, who care very much about this particular case, but also, I think this is the culmination of frustration on the American right with Turkey. There was a time
Turkey was seen as in on the american right as a hope of the dead muslim democracies are islamic democracies where possible and any you could point to urge want as one about the flowering of that there was a time when You know Turkey was seen as an ally in the struggle against the iranian syrian Access, And it's all become scrambled envy in part because Turkey was gonna, be in the EU and it was ok. Ninety ninety eight I went to a conference in Istanbul organised by the former editor of Mass Review, John O Sullivan, the purpose of which, is to establish the argument that Turkey should be allowed to the into the European Union. Now John O Sullivan would not argue that Turkey or there should be a european or anything, but this was what is called the was called the Atlanta sister view, which also lead to the vote
basically opening up of NATO to whatever countries in Europe could join it The lambs this view was the extent that you could loop Turkey into folded in the west and them so it in that this week. Weird status that it had as the as a democracy, but not really democracy, because had this balance we have this dead democratic state, but it would get corrupt and then there would be a military coup, the purpose of which was to arrest, everybody who had stolen all the money and they when that, when they ve all been cleared out, then them military would allow another election. So was it I receive. All isn't that right. It was a democracy with a check on it, but the Czech seemed civilising and sensible, rather than you know, the authoritarian
and then era, one came in and upset the entire apple cart by changing the dynamic altogether purging. The military of of this a secular purity brigade am taking everything under his wing? But I mean there was a huge with it wasn't just the right. I mean it was internationalists thought in this heavy period in the nineties when there seem to be no counter argument to the west that the x extension of western institutions into a country like would be the thing that would fight, would finally and irrevocably make Turkey a western country and a western country Moreover, there was a muslim country so that you could then show the muslim world that that that Islam in the West were not incompatible, well, that's all I mean, and it's a that's all been upturned and you have is just
just done so many. It is annoying things from the from beating up having his goons beat up in a armenian protesters in Washington, the domestic purges to the constant threats to flood Europe with refugees every time something displeases him to the constant threats to such shut down who has access to the insurer lick merit military base rats. He did it so he hovered everyone down at the power, so they're a brilliant storm, but it was the real question from me from the: U S, perspective, Passer Brunson cannot be there. I still haven't. Greece is in principle. You have got what over two thousand Gregg, ok, we'll just have the northern rewarded It's ok to fair enough. That was the biggest ring rules that happened to the United States in some ways in the twenty five really reverberates knows you re right now, so just to refresh when we were in the run up to the Iraq war, We had our troops
a military one come at Iraq from your horse sides with North South EAST, the web and the water in the air and the way that, our troops, we're gonna get into Iraq, was from the north and the Turks refused to allow us to do staging the Iraq war. From the north and as a result, this was why famously the iraqi military was able to disappear. It just went north. The one place. There were no: U S troops, they they dissolved into the north, took off their uniforms and then they were ready three years later to stage the civil war that led to the horrible two thousand and five two thousand and six that by the way It makes the best case if they did belong in the EU
no is right. That's the worst thing we didn't even mention them. That's the worst thing by new AEGIS iraqi former Iraqi Revolutionary Guard members in Syria, getting as is re insurgents and during their very survival, either? We ain't hung down, have the fourth army him in a letter of blocking them his nails? Were there the redhead who refuse to die? Gotcha, Irish, I remember that names bright fiery red entire disease than now Minister, I block in his neighbour. You listener will remember when talking about. I think I recently confirmed its death but fur forever. His death was unconformably any turned up in Syria Rights Basically, if the fourth army had been allowed to come down, Saddam would have been capture. You know, like everything that took two years, wouldn't have taken two years and we would have had sufficient numbers of troops in Iraq, which was always the big question was. Have we gone with to let a footprint? There was no way to go in with a heavier footpath:
unless we had come down from the nordic questions, what what do we want from Turkey, because one not going away. He speaks proved his popularity at the polls, time and again Well, now you isn't even new poles, rising rice restructured, and so he is president for life and the opposition in Turkey's also just inherently weak and unattractive site. Do we do we want to just icily Turkey drive it out of NATO? Do we still do we want child these stabilizer Taiwan and have someone else come to power. The I dont have answer these, but I just don't want to stumble into it. That's that's it, but that is the ultimate problem with this like. I don't think that it was considered that we might be crushingly turn. Economy. Simply as a result of imposing these tariffs, the purpose of which was simply to squeeze them a bit to get them to give to give up Brunson. I didn't mean that
the problem with these. This is an unanticipated kind. Now, maybe good will come of it. Although you have to wonder what the good is aside from his release, I mean: does it help for Turkey It had become wildly unstable, no because they will decide that where an enemy- and they can make a lot of trouble for us there closer to overseer than we are. We still have as no, I know I know I says, there's a lot. Got. There are a lot of people very close to each other from a lot of different countries in Syria ouch shooting proxy in the ear or their make life, misery vague, make life miserable, and a lot of unanticipated consequences can result from that. That will require responses that will also lead to display the consequences. Does it hurt? I have you, are born with american military personnel in Turkey and assets heavy heavy weaponry. Yet so so
Oh, it seems, let's say ill considered or not. If, if there is a strategy, one doesn't really all be made clear by a Trump tweet. So our weird is displaying a disturbing lack of faith or I dimensional Chaz. The guideline is is in motion you guys we have got through. How long have we been? I now know what does it say? How many minutes I haven't read went away. Oh my god. Seventy eight minutes- and we have not mentioned oh morose herself, for Amory, while our Roslin and Memoriam John POT or its keep the candle burning.
Transcript generated on 2019-12-12.