In the first of this week's COMMENTARY podcasts, we go through the series of bombshell revelations this weekend about the heretofore undisclosed 2016 meeting between Donald Trump's son, son-in-law, and campaign manager with a Russian lawyer that evidently began with promises of Kremlin information about Hillary Clinton. Noah Rothman thinks this could be curtains for Trump. I say wanting to collude and colluding are two different things. Abe Greenwald says we're both right. Then we take up Trump's Poland speech and its defense of Western Civ and the moral idiocy of those attacking him for doing so. Give a listen.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome to the commentary magazine podcast today is Tuesday to light weapons. Twenty seventeen, I'm John POD words, the Litter of Commentary magazine the seventy two year old monthly of intellect it will probably political analysis and cultural criticism from a conservative perspective join us. A commentary magazine dot com, where we give You a few free reads and then ask you to subscribe. Nineteen. Eighty five get to a digital subscription, twenty men and if I get you in all access subscription, including our beautiful monthly magazine in your mailbox eleven times a year,
you're with me. As always, a green while our senior editor high aim, high John and nor Rossman, are associate other high. No, I John So the big story, the moment as we as everybody who is listening to me knows, is a meeting undisclosed. Was previously and would have remained, undisclosed had the principles there were hay in June twenty. Sixteen between dolls, junior Jared could son in LAW, Donald Trump and Paul metaphor to the a campaign manager then of the term for President campaign, with one Natalia vs L, need skier a lawyer with informal, but one presumes, substantial ties to the Kremlin. The question that arises from this meeting, which was not only now
disclosed publicly that the press, but that Jared Commissioner, did not disclose the form that he filled out seeking his security clearance, called it s F, eighty six Donald Trump. Junior did not anybody about it and Paul metaphor. It apparently did not tell anybody about it either. In, of course metaphor, it is, I believe, the person under most active investigation likely under most active investigation by Robert Real or for the question of his ties to the Russians, while he was running the term campaign Noah As far as an author of aid Blog post, this more on the subject Can you give us they said The narrative of what was going on here, ok well, beginning over the weekend
he had the initial bomb drop on this story. The revelation of this meeting, one that Donald Trump Junior, was solicited to attend and accepted the solicitation for what reason. Well, that was later, I'm going to the targets so that that was what we heard and then revelation number one was there was a meeting undisclosed, talked about it and it involved Russians and evolved commute camp. In officials at undermined and contradictory statements from the campaign, that'll from Dunedin denied just said that you know nothing serious happen and then the following day. We had an update on the story that this meeting was taken with the promise that there would be some compromising information on Hillary Clinton or the Democrats generally, and that's why this meeting was engaged
and at the meeting they talked about adoptions. The russian actions in response to such sanctions imposed on the russian government at the result of the maiden twelve magnates key act, which shut targeted elites and that kind of board everybody, and that was the end of the conversation and then last night, we had another update that those meaning was engaged with the promise of information regarding Hillary Clinton and Donald from Junior Heaven, You ve been email from the intermediaries, who is set up this meeting, saying very explicitly that this event, she was coming from the russian government with the intention of advancing the Donald Trump campaigns prospects, be warned that was no obstacle to taking this meeting and that's where- The stories sort of has stops today, with the exception of the fact that we saw this attorney, give her side of the story on NBC News, and it's very much is unworthy of the data and the russian version of events that we shall be very cautious rights
the russian version of events that we should all be cautious by now, We are still needed skier, that does she didn't say she was gonna, give them compromising information on Hillary Clinton granted that they asked her at the meeting, for that. Compromising information. Therefore, this right, is is she's like what me I didn't do anything and that the if you were to follow the trump them, most innocent prospect here. It would be that there was a hint, or more than a hint that they would be here. Information that would be useful to them on the campaign they go to the meeting and all this all Natalia vs Alien skier wants to talk about, is
reversing or overthrowing or overturning the Magnets Gay ACT so named for a russian banker who murdered by essentially by agents of Putin, and the passage of this act was a very Important took six years for it to get past after Bangladeshis death, and it was a very important moment in which you know. The idea was that the soviet elite had become completely corrupted body of oligarchs, serving Putin who was not averse to killing people with ties
West at will. So she only wanted software that and sold as Donald Trump himself said. He found this boring and it wasn t leave us on this guy's an admission. She says that everybody sorted tuned out on her Jared left the room metaphor didn't look up from his phone like she was. They were not receptive. Tear her solicitations regarding the illusion of this. So the question is: do you know, did she scam them or with somebody somebody scam them with this promise? So here is the issue. It is gross. To think that Donald Trump Junior and his people would be eager to take a meeting with a Russian with ties to the Kremlin because they were hoping that the Kremlin would help Donald Trump against Hilary and get Trump elected. That's gross unseemly and tasteless, and it may,
You sick, if you're a person of any sensibility and seriousness whatsoever, having said that, Donald TUSK, senior himself in a speech in a rally in August of twenty sixteen openly said he wished. The Russians would find Hilary Females and publish them so. The head of the campaign is Trump Trump himself openly, encourage the Russians to help him defeat. Hillary Clinton, if they're having private, meetings in which their that their conversations about them, helping Trump against Hillary Clinton, I'm not quite sure what the what the boss, Shell is except for the lies, except for a cushion or lying on his as of Asia. Which has nothing to do with Trump. Well, the bombshell is, if I could,
some say, and we have the email it has confirmed has been released as young as, and it says very explicitly that this information is designed to quote incriminate Hillary Clinton and it could come from the russian government, and that was no obstacle to taking this meeting. So if, where that the narrative from Democrats, that is the real, if the real hope fervent hope that we can sort of undue twenty. Sixteen somehow is to establish collusion between the trunk, pain and the russian government and its activities involving hacking of decency, and this is a very clear step towards that. Now. Ok, ok, I think actually less clear and I think what it shows is these shifting definition of collusion here because initially the idea of the trunk campaigns collusion was that they were. Somehow complicit aware of the e g Dnc hacking.
Emails being released. All that kind of thing. I think I think they should have changed the way that the target. Now, I think I think trumps enemy looking at any and every instant of content. To conclude this not strike me as pollution, even even with leaving with that language. I'm I'm sure it is true that the goalposts are moving, but I mean we're talking about the words quote. The russian government attorney unquote quote very high level and sensitive information, but is part of a Russia part of Russia and its government support for Mr Trump Unquote- and we are talking about something that is very clear here- in its intent. Okay, so let's put it this way, you can even establish from this vantage that I'll? Try Junior was not averse to the notion of colluding with the Russians to get his father elected. What you can approve is from this or from what we're learning
is that there was actually any cool russian right so I'm saying that drummed himself open We called for collusion openly said. I would be delighted to collude with you. You would just do this. Let's collude together self doubt there is case to be made again in terms of propriety defending the integrity of our electoral system and just simply like being a good citizen in the United States that getting an email like this, what Donald Trump Junior should have done was contact. The FBI and said there are poor Those who are trying to suborn are election. Do something about if he did not do that. He's a bad person he's a bad american. He stinks he's. Stupid as he looks and he's as gross as he seems an that's it, but that
and make him a criminal and it doesn't make feel it does not invalidate the results of the election is important, believe on the right, when the as these revelations come up that if your, if the practice, the sort of Fox NEWS, this practice is to defend Trump and the Trump family and the Trump families behaviour as being normal and acceptable because they do not wish to. Participate in the invalidating the twelve sixteen election they are working across This is the right way to do. This was to say Donald Trump Junior did was indefensible. However, it does not rise to the level of collusion, I'm sorry like. If it did, he they should lay should be he trumps should be. Each them removed from office you have to able to hold two thoughts like that in your head. If you're going to defend this kind of conduct as Sean Hannity, apparently is and fox- and and apparently is and all that
then you make the second argument impossible to sustain and as is the nature with, with all these cases, theirs Yeah skating information keeps rolling out keep rolling out. There's there things look worse by the day and each in and all these stories silk do. I'll, not away and so definitively given moment. I I think they should have the mandate off. I think the minute this came out. They should have released these emails and not made it a four day. Story, and let's establishing assume that there is no legal trouble for the for the president that this is not an unimpeachable offence. This is politically nuclear. Really saps us administration of a lot of authority in legitimate. Ok, I'm going to disagree with you on that, because I think that it is How been almost six months of this collusion talk or even longer than six months of this collusion talk and
the thing is now going into a great more in which the people who are in stayed in the story because they wish to be true, no it backwards and forwards and can come and can sit down and draw timelines for you and note the seventeen different Is this an eighty differences of that and the people who do not wish this to be the determining factor? our tuning it out and saying this is all just all part of a campaign against. Administration, and I don't care till. They show me that Trump, you know, trumpet Putin sat down and Trump said. I will get no. I will change american policy to help you. If you screw up elections. If that happens, then I'll buy it. If then I'm just gonna keep my, and that is my. I am. I think that the more detail comes out about this, the less convincing it is for certain types of people that collusion have
in other words at some point. If it's all smoke and there's no fire, then everything every detail is simply another piece of sale. Think that's exactly the problem that Hillary Clinton face. She had accusations hanging over her head, which can neither be confirmed, nor does proven and as a result, it destroyed or political career. No he's already president- and in other words the people who are in the trump is bad camp are in the trump is bad camp and the people who aren t you know tat is being given a hard time by the media and by Democrats and there's a conspiracy to invalidate the results of the election camp therein. Care when they are not really there. We want the union to have a lot smaller than the other camp and the present a mean that have to win another election, although it does, but he certainly needs little capital, to get anything done in his declaration, but were beyond that we'll just argue, that will be ok. Why I think I think, there's there's a different Hilary comparison, that's up, which is at
This reminds me of the fur narrow, Benghazi scandal, which was that she was ineffective didn't, do anything and lied about the attack in Libya. At dragged on with with David stories and got to the point that became this fog and everyone got sick of that dead. For a time, seemed less convincing to a great number of people by virtue of the fact that for for all its links. It didn't come up with any smoking gun. I think that is more like what what we're Levice opening or lead to, but it led to write. Tiredly knows tertiary, airy rights issue that had no connection to been causing migration. We let our thing than there I ve mail system, so that's the thing about special prosecutors of examinations like this model.
Out there he's doing stuff? Something may come out of this. That has literally no election. You know no were relation or connection to any of this. No reflection, Levin aware that limit, trusting solaces in there, but You know nothing whatsoever, but will be the thing that takes him down. I've there's an especially high risk of that with with his group, because they're so reckless, because they do things like lie about the emails lie, but the context that those those will be the sort of tertiary look like this one, where we ve got it in. You got a paper trail now that establishes that Donald Trump Junior, his son dragged the the most important person in the West Wing Jared Kirshner into him. Eating in which he had in writing information. That said, this is coming from the russian government in the effort to help you ok, that'll doesn't: what is that some sort of a huge political problem? Somebody's gonna die Edison? No, here's winding someone's gotta go here's what I think. I think that the
The decision of this administration is not to seek grey. Support from a larger group of people but to but to increase the intensity of support from their supporters. That is why you know they have vaulted to the media and attacking the media, which is a republican mainstay and at which they basically say. You can't believe EVA comes out of the mouth of anybody with not Fox or has not leave me alone. Tens of millions of people were who who seem perfectly willing to accept that as the as the way that they should apply things and unless the story shifts the same story now. Does it help him get healthcare pass, no does have helped them. Does it strengthen em with you, though? Whatever to do you know, people in the middle does do anything to help him get Joe Mansion dibs. You know. Cross Party won
to vote for his bill? No, there is no such hope or no such connection, but they're, not looking for that that the oddity, what you wrote about this over the weekend that Noah that. Right now, the intensity of interest on the Public inside in the White House is too Make sure that potentially straying republican senators and certain senator the candidates and twenty eighteen get punished. For their disloyalty, which is That's like they shouldn't want. The inhaler, Nevada and and Jeff Flacon Arizona to get primary than D like you know they. He only a veto. Has fifty two votes now use you up? the apple cart and who knows what's gonna happen so The interest isn't even necessarily imprisoned majority. As it happens,
we're dealing with a different set of political incentives from what we would ordinarily think are the political incentives of a functioning. Organization. This is a call to personality. It is not a political organisation that is coming to the notion that we have that he's, gotta show results or he's gonna get fried. That is not how they operate if they operated that way. He wouldn't have a vanka trump sitting in his chair when he goes to the bathroom. To me is the big thing about all. This is not the reason that there is jeopardy here is at the fact that his son took the meeting is the important thing because he trusts his children more than he trusts anybody else, so of his children are doing things are significant.
If you heard that a second level, you know operative, that in the end, the Trump campaign had a meeting with some russian lawyer who promised something didn't deliver it. You got that bad, it's Carter, page Bob LAW. But you know he certainly say: hey dad, I'm about to go, have a meeting with. Does Russia lawyer who's gonna, give me all the dirt on Hilary? So let's say he said that that would contradict the statements of Donald Trump returning who says it is only this one sense, but the president was not aware of and did not attend this meeting right now. The fact that we have established that's where their hanging there had on this thing, which is a real low, barter, clear, ok let's say that that's the only thing that we can establish Now let me also say that that is proven untrue, that it turns out that the president was told surprise, surprise by either his campaign manager his most trusted adviser his son in law, or his first born son, that this move.
Was happening and that it was designed to advance has campaigned. Let's say that that happen, Mirabile, a dick to that would contradict, is turning. That is an appreciable events, milkman Are you serious, you didn't think contrary what his attorney his attorney saying something s undergrowth. There is no. There's no one here lying there has to be an underlying crying underlying crash with Georgia. Resident high crimes at misdemeanours is the standard in the constitution. Engagement as we know the Congress that enlargement is a political question, I'm aware of that, but first of all is not going to get impeach by Republican Congress. We weren't established that the Democratic Congress will impeach him for any reason right, so That said, however, that these aims and countering the issue of twenty eighteen than is the issue Democrats run on and I think a bit too pretty of convincing gates. Well, it could be it vincent. If you're in the weeds about it, I'm not sure it's convincing if you're late or have to be in the weeds about the times are we get on with? This? Is that this is the big deal is because this is a one sentence. Scandal we had in right.
The russian government wants to help you here. It is and then the rest: so that is you got it. Nope because they showed the right now, because you have to show that it happened However, we only know we're demonstrating intent and we ve establishing ok, but It is not the intent collude with the russian government. Is not itself collusion and what's more so somebody wants to give them information. So what like? I mean, that's what that's in fact, what you know, from junior said- and I again I think it's despicable, but I dont necessarily think its criminal ran and also by the way and a lawyer can lie. You know what I mean a lawyer can lie. Trauma lie he's not under row, but but also was impeach for lying under oath? And you know I didn't get didn't get What also there's a detail in this, which is that the campaign was
absolutely not interested in quid pro in a quid pro quo, at least the DV potential quid pro quo. There would have been sort of floated women is the idea of doing something about the magnets bet magnates GAD right, leaving didn't they. They paid no more probably didn't even know what it was upon. Metaphor tin, look from his phone. So I've have said repeatedly that you have to take the man and the administration in two different context. You have to take them wholly. You can't look at, for example, that this speech in the G20, which was hard on Russia and ignore the fact that the president has been really deferential to Russia inconspicuously aware of its geopolitical interests. Nor can you, discount. The fact that the administration has been a lot harder on Russia than we thought it would have been in that during the campaign, and these things are all kind of self predict gut contradicting, but the creative full port written if you're only being honest, if you take it all together and no cherry back from those I've,
since your question, is it collusion if she showed up with the goods on Hilary gave it to and and they used it in their campaign and did nothing in return. We ask that would certainly be collusion, but others. I reiterate what I have to say: we are wandering of stolen goods, so yeah I mean the point is that if they had a meeting because they would have been happy to collude being happen, include, doesn't mean collusion. Unfortunately form you know the narrative. Why now all? But I'm Saint, where were the disagreement? We're having here, is over perception and you, be right magnetic value, but we we don't know I'm arguing that the damage to Trump has been done by the story. The words he is Aqua faced or what is that? Whatever happened? Six send to his administration he's
not going to get his approval raving over forty three percent or something like that, just not gonna happen, he's turned off too they people in seventeen different ways and the story is one of them and then the question what will the attempts at EU level of his support be among those who aren't in that you now fifty seven percent we disapprove, They believe in apparently Steve Bam in his back. White houses good graces, because he is running this campaign. They believe that they can. Jim up or they can entail so five republican dislike of all the anti too the institutions of the country, the media, universities. You know where the democratic, all that too, such a level, that not only will he you now be protected from the downside enough from serve like falling down into the twenties. Low thirty's in his approval brought, but that they can
You know use that as a as a enforcement mechanism against Republicans who might be on the hill, who might be looking get themselves the hell away from him right and, and so brain themselves, because their worried about cataclysm and twenty eighteen right now? It appears that the safer bad, if you are republican, Capitol Hill in most of the states in which they function except me Amy or something that is too they closer to him and not to separate yourself from the Senate To ensure that the house to write them in the house talking about Alabama, where there is a primary rays on right now and the key defining feature of it is who can be more program right, of course, light. That's what I'm saying, I'm saying that you know the set its the big here in the house, is actually better question you could. The question is what do you do when things get desperate? If it's A number of twenty eighteen ever looks like September two thousand and six. When the republic
parties numbers or in the toilet and bushes. Looking like a drag, what you do do you say I'm sticking with one another. When you bring me a dancing with one o Brien, we're do like head for the hills and do whatever you can just to get her you're just to get too of fifty point. One percent in the polls write another betting that they can use the threat of republican intensity against Republicans to keep Republicans law That's all, and whether or not you know the story, the bombshell issue here is, and we haven't even too at the South Pole metaphor, was in the meeting ripe Hamas for was the campaign director from April two, beginning of August, I believe, and the whole per head metaphor is that he had to go because his ties to his tea as to the Russians were to disturbing. You knows secret twelve million dollar
payment from a Ukrainian, you know with basely craning puppet of Putin's you know weird stuff going on in that. The more Sir family and others basically said to treat you ve gotta get rid of this guy, bring bring ban it get rid of this guy he's too much trouble after he had run the convention to have Fino TED crews boot down and all that stuff. Because metaphor: it's the one. If you really looking for a collusion plod man for it and Flynn or where there are the collusion, plotters, write em and that's the idea there. Both they, both paid by the Russians. We know they were paid by the Russians. Man afford you know, head Money for the Ukrainian Flynn have at least five hundred thousand dollars from Russia today, and the tv cable network and vat other things, and so the idea was they had already extent financial interests were they using their positions in proximity.
The trumpeted advance, their own financial interests and the interests of their patrons of Moscow. Assuming that man effort has patrons of Moscow. That still the major issue caused, however, now coming around here the thing, actually, I'm not exactly sure how much legitimacy or authority they had yesterday. They don't have today regarding this during. However, we are, we now have five people who are part of the campaign and some of whom are members, the administration who lied, either on earth there in writing about meetings with russian officials we also have these little bits of stray detail, but again, like you, have to be in the weeds to know this Eric camp, I believe was Eric Trump. Maybe indulgently writhing was Eric. Who said in two thousand, two thousand and nine look if we ever need money will always have the Russians we'll give us money in this. Scandal right. The
the intermediaries between Donald Junior, and Natalia vs Elites Gaia was this guy this wacko guy, English guy Rob Goldstone, a music publicist who, as they publicist for em in a Russian, pop star, who is the son of billionaire arrests of Belarus, and who is our Us Aguilar? F R S Aguilar of was Who wanted to build a Trump tower in Moscow? So we, I presume that senior knows our Us Aguilar off as one of the Russians that he knew and maybe, as one of the people that Donald Young, Donald or Eric was referencing. When they said look, if we ever get into money troubles, we always have the Russians to bail us out.
What actually happened, and we had a third, the road. The Wall Street Journal had a big story detailing the ties between a russian state linked bank B B, which provided through third party intermediaries, support financial support for a Trump tower in Toronto. That's it. That's happened right now. The other thing that one of the reasons that that comment may have been innocent by the Trump son, whichever one it was like I remember, is that he could have been referring to the fact which as well, documented that high and ultra high and real estate in New York City was being bought up in the years between two thousand six in two thousand fourteen disproportion we buy Russians who were looking to get their money out of Russia hard currency out of into a liquid assets in the west and were willing to pay proper stir sums of money for apartments, including apartments and from tower their willing to repay simply so that they could have property
outside of Russia that if they fell into Putin's bad graces, he could not expropriate from them inside Russia. So there are fifteen built in New York City that are sitting- empty, you know in which parliament's worse were bought for a hundred billion dollars, like literally hundred million dollars, and the apartments are empty because they were so we bought as a an illiquid asset, a form of diversification, against the possibility that the dictator was gonna turn on you, so that that is, but Trump Junior, which, whenever one of them was could have been talking about it with more innocent, then that they had ass. They have spigot. They had a way to go to Moscow to get a spirit of cash if they meet with it. So it's none of its good. I just wanted spit specify and weaken officially higher the idea that the special council makes the story call underground, Well I mean that's where we're early that has come from is the other question that is really weird, because they d
else were initially before they the times get their hands on them and then Donald Trump, Junior, pre, empted them and publish them. They were just described to the times. According to the reporting by three separate individuals now we're does this come from? Is the West wing leaking on Donald Trump Junior and who would that be and for what purpose Thus we are perhaps this comes from russian soil sources, sore people like Goldstone and close to him. We don't really know but Why should we re, nor is coming from his justice interest you I'd say that one Can a star was the independent Council investigating Bill Clinton that office leaked like a sieve to friendly were borders, was, I journal coming from the Justice Department willing, yes, they one where the other you just don't know, there's. No.
Knowing, but I'm just saying if you think that, because all Miller so pure and proceed in all this and new laws, there were people leaking like crazy. Most of it was not was to be published but I heard stuff from reporters about what I once was saying and what someone so saying and how they they had it, but they had a bead This aspect of the white water blown in that part of the white water process and all of this And then, of course, you know the fair, the very fact of Monaco Lewinsky's Linda you know Poland is sensible was it was? It was some kind of a leak from the independent council, so how could it could I think we can presume that you know the more people are employed by the independent counsel, the likelier it is that somebody in that office is going to is going to have a speed dial on on a on a burner phone to
you know, Maggie Haber, man or Glenn Thrash or whoever it is, it does actually Parker at the Washington, post or whatever. Now, gentlemen, with this continuing controversy in our political life. There is nothing that we need more of them and understanding of our system, its background, its greatness and the ways in which it is being stretched to the breaking point. And how we can make sure that it doesn't break and one of the ways to do that is through study and one of the best ways that we now have available to adult learners and people who go through life? Wanting a continuing education is the great courses plus one of our advertise answers. We find it so satisfying to learn from trusted engaging experts
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So a give us a sense of what you get when you watch the great courses plus history, the Supreme Court very interesting top. I love fastening Peter irons I'm only in the beginning. First few letters of it. He talks about I am particularly compelling the idea that the good, the cases that the that there that the court hears are all ultimately the elections of conflicts that are going on in our country. Even among the people have a have a sort of the major conflicts among our diverse country, work their way up to two to the court and and get settled. But now there is some. There are some things about which I disagree, but that's good disagreements fun. I like discrimination and its it takes its as a spur to edge
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so we want you to check out the great courses plus today, you'll love it they're, offering our listeners here at commentary a full month. Free video lectures, when you sign up to see and up you need to use our special url? It is the great courses plus dotcom. That's all one word. The great courses plus dot com, slash commentary, so stop you're free months now sign up at the great courses. Whilst I can remember all one word, Slash commentary, the gray courses plus dotcom slashed commentary, and we thank the great courses plus four sponsoring the commentary Maggie. In podcast? Now, gentlemen, I was pretty much Last four days in the North West Woods of Wisconsin visiting my kids at camp and out one of the many features of this glorious part of the United dates along with fine institutions like covers ice cream and and
Berger Shop and various other places. Is that I had very bad wifi. So, as I was unable to read aloud that's going on, including both the Poland. The speech Donald Trump gave in Poland and the the I got a little bit of a hint of the reaction to it from some things that people who seem to have The wife exits than I did around me were able to glean. So Nobody wanted to give a sense of what Trump seven Poland them. Maybe we can talk, give me a sense of what in a speech which was hailed, am also criticised at a higher level. I would say the most Trump speeches have been ok. Well, I'm going to pull up my reactions to them, because I wrote them down in two separate posts believe it or not sad commentary magazine that come where we get a few free reads. We ask it to subscribe. Ninety. Ninety five for a day
The solution to our amendment five for an all access absorption, including a beautiful monthly magazine, your mailbox eleven times a year, go there read these, but but no is gonna, give you a sense of these posts from last couple. Ok, so it was my initial reaction to this speech a generally a critic of Donald Trump and ACE vehement critic of speech. Writer, Stephen Miller too, along with others drafted this address anti immigration activist immigration. Sceptic, I suppose, would be the charitable notion for those individuals world view, but it's one with which I take a significant amount of exception. I found the speech to be enlightened, informed graceful
on the most lettered defenses of liberal values and specifically western values that I've ever heard him deliver. And I like to quite a bit. He was talked about faith. He talked about how the the west as a set of traditions, not we don't put government and bureaucracy at the centre of our lives. Unquote, he quoted Pope John Paul nineteen. Seventy nine addressed to the polish people when he observed that the people still cry out. We want God, which prompted a very funny reaction from people who had no idea what he was referencing two, who were very much exception to that. The invocation of of the of God in that speech- and he also was very hostile towards
Moscow. You talked about how Moscow should give up its support, for quote hostile regimes, including IRAN and Syria, that it should abandon its destabilizing its attempts to destabilize places like Ukraine. He suggested it represented a significant threat, any back. Some of this up with action on the head of the G20 he provided are some recently had of the G20. He acted deal to provide liquid natural gas to Poland, to decouple it from Moscow and energy and recommitted to age or W. Bush era deal to provide and missile defence interceptors to Poland the spice russian objections. Some, not only did I think that the the speech and the policy were good, but I thought they were pretty enlightened and you could see coming that. There was going to be some criticism from the left and democrat as it was so undiluted with any sort of self conscious apologetic about western racism and colonial.
And oppression and undignified treatment of people's outside the western sphere of influence. So you saw them coming a million miles away in boy. Did that wave crest? So can you Some sites reaction, while the rest in some sense. It was kind of speech, was kind of these sort of opposite of the Obama age, everyone's exceptional exceptional, because they think they're exceptional he was making the objective case for what's exceptional about the West Yeah they reaction on on a huge part of the left that the issue was. That the West wind when someone like Trump or were, I suppose, any one of a conservative bent? about the West, its code or even not so coded language for racism it. So it's it's about her white day, european chauvinism. I think this is very Danes.
There's been a long war against western sort of supremacy and and western ideals on the left, but the idea now that West's is simply the west is simply acquainted with racism. I think put this issue in a new scary. Well, that was the position of people like Peter Barnard, who wrote for the Atlantic that the west is only understood not as a set of political traditions. The heritage of the enlightenment, republican governance of freedom of speech and expression and
Listen, we worship, etc. It's a set of its an f no religious heritage run, and that's the extent of it and to invoke it and some passages which were cited by people like CBS News, political analysts, Gmail Buoy, who noted that these pages were suddenly racist, call out to people like at the american Renaissance who, by the way loved the speech. Therefore, we should all hate it day. They said that this, these were dog whistle call out to people who heard the expert somehow there able to also decipher these dog whistles run and the people whom their directed are but the rest of us. We mess it sir what's interesting to me. Hearing about this is that the idea that the West represents an and ethnicity that is a counter ethnicity too. To Asia, the South Asian Africa, South America, the Indians, the Mayans, you know
the other great civilizations that have come and gone. Is demented in the extreme, because you know at least until the mid, the late nineteenth century, if you told, an italian that he was of the same ethnic mix as an as an irishman if you told an irishman that he was the same ass ever told Britain that he was the same ethnicity is an Irishman. They would be a Frenchman was not the same or by either. Someone from France was not the same as someone from Germany. Someone from Russia was certainly not the same as somebody from you know. Bulgaria or something like that. This notion that the West, which was this you know essentially collection of hundreds and hundreds of different tribal whew group of tribal origin, the Franks, the mayor of Indians, the reed, I'm ok, you can't even they enumerate right at ends The notion that now, because the last hundred years, all these other places have set themselves up or other.
Realities of atoms ourselves up in and out in an opposite She went to the west that the west is one thing you know of granite. The essential values would taught this famous class of western civilization, western civilization was tat, was viewed as the that which the tenuous that began in Jim Greece through our aim. Rome you now serve started die down the middle ages was kind of revived by some. Civilization a new awareness and the rise of sort of medieval full flaws late, medieval philosophy, quietness and others through the renaissance which we arrived. Whether this thousand year, in others, the gap of a thousand years. This explosion of creativity in new thought that then spread its past
through the civilised world, as it was then thought and that all of this anchored in a series of universal list, ideas that the Greeks. You know along with basically, Hebrew Bible had had I never originated the notion that do now there are there are, man has a unique in any individual man shares characteristics with other in visual men and women and that there is a there is of Anne S. To humanity that that tens toward the desire for knowledge, hunger for justice, all of that that, even when its quelled and explained away and so this this notion that we have now gone two point: twenty first century, when an idiot like Peter Binary can can can assert, appear barkers apparent at by at you. Don't we are centre
the same school so get. I want to see him in the elevator. I say hello and he doesn't say hello back, so I will now say that he is an immoral idiot, which I Let us also personal idiot Peter by hurts. You know, We can now assert that the west is itself a military conception is, is it is but it's a conception based on ideas not based in person. Hood right and this angle to this you made this growth manners, but I wanted you didn't like my turkey example before night. I take the hut but the idea that the West is and in that and that what's best about the west is only confined to why western would till yet westerners is naturally what's take for sample, Japan, modern modern day, Japan Right arrows, Edward Postwar Japan, after world war to it when they were, they were defeated. The principles by which the EU has put together
gun constructive dead than new japanese government, those doubt those come, straight down the line or not stray deserted, circuitous led down the line from from the from all these sources. That John was just talking about that. That is it. That was a the flowering of the western tradition. Up until that point, and then the Japanese been Japan now enjoys the that reality What's an that's a western that that was made possible by the way, Spain, are very explicitly- brings up Japan as well as India in his peace, making the case that nobody would ever consider these two democracies. The west did demonstrating that this is it. This is not a
thus a set of ideas, but in ethnic construct, oh yeah, I give them because they drew. The japanese constitution was fundamentally written by Douglas Macarthur Whelp itself. God knows that has nothing to do with the West LAW, because I come from from the West, from a student of geopolitics in international relations and when the West, as referred to in that in that context, is referred to as a block of nations that were opposed to the soviet sphere raw. It was had it strictly jewel local definition in that geopolitical definition were India's sort of fell in and out of that, a little bit over the course of the cold war towards the eighties in the nineties indefinite today. It is certainly considered part of that. The GEO political sphere, that is the west with its shared heritage and shared values of egalitarianism in, to an extent and democracy and Japan absolutely certainly falls into that contracts. On the post war period, the West has a very
narrow definition, at least in a in a political sense set them miracle of the west that allows moral idiots like Peter Viner, to come up with this ludicrous conception. That is itself a bat. Utilization of Edward saves even more ludicrous conception of the west You're standing of the east in his book Oriental ISM is that the west was in itself If there is a west, it was in a state of pitch total civil war for a thousand years trying the Euro being continent was, was a place of total and perpetual. There were thirty or wars hundred year. Wars Alsace, Lorraine, was being traded back and forth between France and Germany. There was no Germany, there was no ITALY. These world nineteenth century constructs you know, and then there these two wars within twenty Una within twenty five years of each other, that nearly took the entire world down and nearly destroyed everything and what happened in their wake. The imposition
a set of universal list. Ideas and assumptions spread be in part because of the threat of it. Solitary, an enemy to the east, spread through this world, you know twenty eight countries or something like that were imbued in you know at the risk of their own? You know futures with understanding of the need to approach things in a different way to come into alliance, and how would that be done? That will be done through the impulse through the assertion of of democratic and republican principles of self Government freedom of speech, freedom of the freedoms that we take for granted in the United States that were not taken for granted in it or even before these these so for seventy years, there's been a west? There was no west as a whole, in the sense that that Peter binder means countries hated each other, no, no
oh two nations could have been more in opposition to each other in France and the Germans, or even France, and the Britons for abuse hundreds of years, even before these enlightenment notions we're popularized in the end, the eighteenth century. And then the very idea of statehood in the West trillion sense was a construction of european and western values designed to get away from me the perpetual war, Petrol Warren, these semi ethnic feudalism that had characterized Europe to provide Europe with the five hundred years prior and by typifies quite a bit of the world by the way, just as the threat of sir. We had to tell terrorism serve, snapped the west into political being. You know, after nineteen forty five, let's say it was in fact the threat of a you know of a force from the outside? You know that you know the the Muslims at the gates,
yet in sixteen eighty eight that led to the creation of the Westphalia. In system which is the idea that if we don't get around, together and don't make these rules so that we know so that we can make sure that we are not over. You know we're not serve overtaken by people who are you know even more who come from civilization, entirely different from our own right that serve Islamic. Civilization, that at least what they haven't common, was that they were all christian were so there is this a commonality there and certain commonality, having just adjusted to expand on your point about the warring factions. I mean what the west is, is prepared, Billy shaped by these conflicts. I mean what, when you know both. He bought the victors and the losers, their culture? ideas end up getting
what about it, as as the result of wars have, when all its even even barbarian ideas by the way, and what about the incredibly fruitful distinction that was made in the west between the American Revolution in the french Revolution, one hundred years after the Westphalia system came into being, which was there's no. But there was a way of doing this in an orderly faction fashion in wood to the interests of people were to be expressed through the political system, and then there was you now the burning flood of view, no sort of populist destruction. That wouldn't you know, is a tidal wave that would I'll, throw the corrupt old order out of power which only lead to greater are we not, which only lead to destruction and chaos and murder and death in the regional Mason totalitarianism of the Jacobin and then led, of course, to the first modern dictator, only Bonaparte. So you know the these. These things are present. Also the the fact that this speech, as you describe him, pin
I mean the other thing is a Poland's an interesting case right, because Poland, was the subject of one of the great screwing of all time, Poland and the Czech Republic. In two thousand and nine, when Having made a substantial, how you are talking about another great screwing, appalling slightly surrender magnitudes, I rather but nobody. Two thousand nine, when you know when Obama Iraq Obama, in an earlier effort to reset relations with Russia, basically announced that you know he was pulling. The battery of missile defence that was going to be placed in Poland that him agreed to during the Bush administration. With enormous political implications inside Poland, because it essentially led to the overthrowing of a kind of much more friendly or much more westernized political.
The party it s a system in Poland and now they have as much more nationalist there, much more authoritarian you now using extra political means, tubes. Violence, adversaries and political opponents and the press and look what I said before we started what Woodbine or have said. If Obama had made a speech method Obama would have made the speech he would have said. Even After this great speech defending the West Obama is the enemies who who consider him. An enemy of of the west was right, does won't come around they once there will be a vote. Both continue to think that he's, you know a bad guy, that's, and this is why you know, aside from the fact that it was determined to be chauvinist because it didn't apologize for western heritage and fur western abuses of other peoples under the,
colonial period. It. It nevertheless said that the West has traditions and heritage that need to be defended, and the question of our time is whether or not we can embrace western heritage to an extent that will be willing to do and it from both within and without, and the within obviously refers to in the minds of people. It Peter by Norton I'd be willing to concede that the influx of refugees from the muslim world who don't embrace western their values and european values and the without days from regimes that are hostile and from in ITALY actual heritage that is hostile towards western values and in the rest of the world, but it's also from the people like Peter Binary who don't believe the West is worth defending, whose zeal
I fear that deserves to be criticized January would think to west by thing. That's aims, pointy with four think the west was permanently worth, defending if Obama and raising a certain concept when that is regular, Nell Manila Conditional love, someone or sell. So when it went, you know when things are going, his way loves. You lay bleed totally fine with it, but when they're not then it's you know it's is it's a moral and you know what political evil I mean if it only takes an election one election. That has a result that you don't like to turn to make him turn on the fundamentals of Vienna three thousand years of the of the the greatest flowering of human kind. Then you know than the hell with you is what I say: tragically, I think, to conclude Europe in the tragic problem with the speech him with Trump in general. Is that you I assume that this speech reflects his views of anything or that it or that it or that it represents a ghetto change in tone for the better somebody
because, as he said, to mark Leibovitz children of the New York Times as observe amazing piece in the New York Times magazine those now on line. No, he said and he said Twitter is my medium and they're. Trying to say they are trying to silence me they're. Trying to take my voice away is what he said so great a trump. The true trump is the Trump on Twitter. It is not. From the speed is Poland, it's not his behaviour at the G20, its nobody says and press conference in London, and I think it is what he says impressed operative caused back when we have had the right before he delivered this speech? She had a press conference in which he said you know I think I'm not sure whether or not the Russians hacked us, and even if they did, Obama choked and also this is the joke that I'm gonna ratifies official american policy. It was utterly in Bulgaria. Learners undermine his speech anyway that Turkey, so so ordinarily, and I speak as a former presidential speechwriter, the president's the views
the presidency are codified laid out, and you know stablished at least the principles of it, even though the principles are not offer their sometimes not lived up to in the formal dresses at the President makes- and I would say that just simply is not the case here, so that it's a good that he makes a good speech instead of a bad speech. Just has far less meaning. Then yeah than other presidents speeches do. And with that we come to the clothes of another. I would, though, not so not so crushingly, not that such crushing were also the we as waited talking about Delhi's in him, sandwiches, which was of yes. We did a penny, that's right! The group were made sandwiches, that's why that's my very good friend David Brooks are not going to make, but you know no intriguing elder lace and no one should go to may sandwich sharp, have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich you know have you now have
have a good pastrami. You know on rye, with coleslaw and mustard a russian dressing, and that's it don't put it in the press and don't melt it and then, with the I see I go cheese. I don't want to hear about it. That's all I'm saying you you have Some of the worst is now. This is the decline of the west. The west says one: Peter Butter. Chilean wonder press ahead with has said that it is all a post, colonial postmodernism, where you deconstruct the sandwich. Yes, multicultural launch, that's exactly right! Ok! Well, anyway, so things were listening for every while the north, when I'm John passports, keep the candle burning.
Transcript generated on 2019-12-13.