Well, well, why commentary magazine par guys we're here against a brick wall in Greenwich Village at the committee, so the village on the room at the comedy cellar the foremost location for comedy in Manhattan and we're gonna make you cry,

for we are going to make you laugh today, I'm John onwards. The editor commentary. You can say it along with me if you want the seven some of your old monthly of intellectual analysis, political probity in cultural criticism. From a conservative perspective, we invite you to join us. A commentary magazine dot com where we give you a few free reads: ask you to subscribe. Ninety. Ninety five for digital subscription

many five for an all access of virtue, including our beautiful monthly mailbox magazine eleven times a year with me, as always to my right. No arrangement associate letter, Hyena crossly, eight Ringwald, our senior editor, high and senior writers, or of a Mari Hazel, Rob TV bit liquor it up serves the only one of us. Who had a drink before he's the only one of us without a drop of juice blood cells. I don't know what the correlation is by its great to have. You a little liquid up, Sorra, okay, so

So basically, here lie. We are just going to do the podcast the way we would ordinarily. Then, when, when we're when we close out will love will open the Florida them some some questions? We will we. I think become coming about names of this, because of course we end. I usually end by saying, keep the candle burning so able Maybe we should call the post, show Q and a after, after I said we could call it the wax think about it, hours afterwards. That's right audience acclamation. Has it as after burn? Ok! Well, so we we, we speak Do you today interesting couple of days have passed since on Friday,

constantly area, Michael Cohen, let it be known or someone let it be known to see an end that Michael Cohen, was prepared to say remarkably didn't say just was prepared to say that Donald Trump knew of advance of the meeting at Trump Tower in June of twenty sixteen. Where's the russian lawyer Irina Arena. This on that scale we got vessel nets guy we had that down. Patents are first name let us remember getting wider. First, will collar rebellion us we're gonna collar arena and, if were wrong, she cares of islamic world like take out a red notice against us with Interpol is something anyway health so calling says that that Trump do in advance of the trunk tower. Meaning thus leading to a weekend- You talk about collusion, and is there

it was what is collusion, does collusion rise to the level of unimpeachable offence if it can be proved that there was cool and there is no legal standing or legal condition called collusion, but impeachment isn't a legal process, but a polluter the process and so on and some of our friends in erstwhile colleagues, who are, I think, more firmly in the Trump camp. Actually went on tv and on Twitter over the weekend and started to test the theory that even if there had been collusion so what right it might be, the other way around colleagues in erstwhile friends obtaining those relationships of well. I mean I'm I've been trying to try very hard to maintain those relationships there. They they may be a little less interested in maintaining them.

Than I am that we are but but so Molly Hemingway, tweeted, something Andy Mccarthy, a contributor commentary and a long long time friend got himself tripped up and confuse trying to answer a question. Lord Ingram show about this saying. As he has said, for more than a year, there is no legal terms called collusion, There is, however, such a thing as conspiracy and that you know you after prove conspiracy and so far, no one has any evidence that there was any kind of conspiracy. Well, ok, bye. Now, it's not that there is evidence, but if someone close to trumpet starting to get willing to talk about whether or not he might have known in advance about a meeting, it was very clear, his team, his son and his son in law. His campaign manager wanted to take with a russian some unknown close to the Kremlin. As they were hoping that there would be information that they would be handed juice

pieces of information, as we know, from emails between Donald Trump Junior and the bizarre. Where that bizarre agent manager person from England Goldstone, the one who did the big dance, and the pan. Do you remember that was for my friend then rose over their loves, the loves the Abbe panty bet. You can look it up if you want to we know that he was like who we're gonna, get a good stuff from her. Aren't we like that we know they wanted to, but then we were told that all she wanted to do was talk about Sanctions act on Russia, the magnetic the act and limit and how Russia was retaliating by not allowing adoptions and they were board and they were they were dawdling, and everyone Donald and no one paid attention. Ok, so that's now, then, today and no one may be, can take it from here Cohen is abused on television twice today by Julie Ali.

Once in the morning and then once at about noon on for once and worrying CNN than once a new non fox and what did broody? Yes, yes, we ve been going Andrews character for a couple of days now I've I forget there is no. I don't think there is much news made on the fox and friends hit, but he apparently while he said he did the whole collusion- is not a crime sort of thing, which is not a great defence. Politically, it's a little fraud. So everything blew up during the day and he had to call in a new and by the way we should we should say what he said. It was so interesting on the morning she was, he said. Cohen is a snake in a rather betrayer he's like Iago like Brutus. Okay, now that lets Let's game this out. What happens fellow and what happened Julius Caesar, so Rudy trying to tell us the Trump ends up dead. At the end of this I mean it was it was one of the headwaters analogies

so then he goes on on outnumbered on fox. Even before that there were a couple of days in which we had stories from people who are close to my calling. What that means saying. I want my legal bills paid ready to talk to Mahler, basically strong, arming the president, the United States, through the media, which is again a frog prospect, so now he's apparently at least we're not really really hearing from him. We have these tapes that came from him were hearing from sources close to him that the president knew about this meeting before the fact, and then we have the spin over the weekend. That was the president didn't really know about this meeting until after the originally was he never knew about the meeting now it was sort of when he knew about this meeting then back to rooted, really only calls in for some damage, control, outnumbered and Fox NEWS in noon and he's he gets out in front of the MIKE

story, saying that my Cohen is going to say what is he going to say? I think he said that he is going to say the Trump. That there was a meeting before right said there was a ok get. So there was a meeting before the meeting, which was the big meeting. That was a meeting where they were going to end these. All these principles, who were in this meeting, including Rick Gates, is cooperating with the special councils authors briquettes being metaphors. That parliamentary rights that we parliament of what goes on trial starting tomorrow and gates, is cooperating. So he presently will please. Guilty. They will lesser offence, and in this way from your PA metaphor, Rick Gates and Don from Junior and Michael Colon, Michael Michael Cohen, according to Rudy, says he. This week, and they say that this is where they talked about what they were going to get from the Russians. And how are we going to use it? anything more about that really is getting in front of that story. That's real! It seems like a pretty big deal, I'll, jumping Jack,

I would say that Rudy is to damage control, as Ms Cassio Cortez is too rapid capital is especially of late applause. I'm a comedy states laugh, and then you got the applause without the live. Let me go with the idea that the Trump that that collusion is not conspiracy is not technically crime. Ethics perfectly true, and if this were a legal matter strictly in. If, if all trumps defenders were speaking in a court of law that might work as some kind of defence, I think The court of public opinion there is absolutely no way that anyone in the approach from camp benefits from the confusion, neither the very constant public confusion between

collusion conspiracy. I think I think, having those two melted together again and again, whether or not someone's trying to draw a distinction between them is a very bad thing for the president, but the line is now everybody pollutants right, illogical included, Gloody it's just something you do well or, let's be, let's be honest, the consequent when Trump Centerville O Reilly like what we're so our hands are so clean, were murderers. Do just like Putin. Remember that there is this people Actually, Bali Hemingway actually said on Twitter. I dont care whether we collect negative information from forest horses, and but if I cared, I would care be Hilary hired a spy to look into top, which is I don't can't get to the bottom of that going down. A rapid hold and has no bottom, because.

Hilary is bad for having hired Christopher Steel, but trumpets, ok if they were going the Russians to basic as somebody who might be a SL we are or GR in our or dear you agent, but that's ok, but it's not ok for the DMZ, not Hilary to hire private tractor, who used to be a spy to look into trump that we have that. I think that's her argument. I think that the legal political distinction matters somewhat and that's to this extent that if the end point of all this is potential impeachment and undoing the result of a democratic outcome, which I think the idea that, but for some russian interference, which we now happen, Donald Trump wouldn't be. President, is preposterous. So, if he's going, if the outcome of that of a legitimate democratic vote is going to be at risk, then I think, even if we say that impeachment is only a political procedure, I think

serious people and maybe the avenue the average American I dunno, but Suit Sears people will expect that there be some nexus between the political claim. Your sleazy for having said that, I agree with so sleazy when he said if your elbows emails release them, but there has to be some sort of juridical basis to to. Macro present, right, ok, so, and I think, looked at the bar to remove american President is so high that it's never been cleared by ever in american history right. So there have only been too impeachment and while the bar for impeachment is theoretically low, the bar for removal for conviction by the Senate is astoundingly high and two thirds of the sun

have to vote to remove the president for him to be for his presidency the end, and so that the the bar itself is creates the condition that you lay out. That would be necessary for for such things. Whether or not we were debating the off if the Democrats, when the house in November there will be, enormous emotional pressure on them to impeach as quickly as possible, and no I had a disagreement as I said if they went a large margin. In other words, they need to win twenty three to take control the house if they went forty or forty five, which doesn't seem likely, but you never know, then maybe

something they can just jump right into, but if their margin is two or three seats, it will be very frightening to the democratic leadership to do that, but knowing you think it would have to have, I think, they'd hadn't very little choice. The democratic base, the activist base is not ruled with Nancy Policy. To begin with, if Nancy Policy were to say, this is politically untenable and trying not to put a resolution on floor and impeachment articles of impeachment because it would pass by a very small margin that party line vote. I think she would get real doubt by the democratic base. I think her position would be in trouble and starting in trouble from two different such trouble from a centrist susan trouble from the far left far left is clearly ascended and I think they would exercise enough political pressure on members to horse some sort of conundrum within leadership by nonfiction.

I certainly be removed, but there would be enough pressure on her to actually be a crisis within the Democratic Party. I agree entirely x. I think the debate would also then be saying. The reason that victory was so narrow was because democratic power, are not responsive enough to the activists base I mean, and so yeah that's a pretty we plausible scenario, and anyway, the process does you said it would be a political decision of the impeachment process. La Democrats will say Elliot impeachment process is already politicized, but it would be of a definite corruption of the process and it would open the door to. Impeachment is just a matter of course, yeah. I think that's that's an interesting point that people have reflected on very deeply, which is that so There was no one. There was an impeachment in eighteen, sixty seven that failed, and then there was no I've been Nixon. The way we vote out impeachment grounds on him and he resigned. So there was no. There was no,

so there's impeachment ninety ninety eight, that was a colossal failure politically and answered of genetically let's say: okay, so now we move ahead at night, you may now we move ahead twenty years trumps him peached? And I mean it's very easy to see that if the opposing parties, from now on, throughout the course of future american history. The opposing party has a majority in Congress Del impeached, the Belle impeached, the president is that we should say is not based on the assumption that I think we all share that there really is in any case smoking gun here, and they have something is truly ingredients that has uncovered. Then all bets are off in. There could be a really really legitimate impeachment process and a removal went and that's what happened this week in which I think is what we want to get to this call Of whether or not the Trump defence is moving to the notion that its eighty as any Mccarthy said it's

but it does not rise to the level of you, no constitutional crisis for there to have been collusion. You know where it is that, where, where are we If that is a serious argument on the part of the Trump defenders, are they throw it on the defensive, or is this simply going to become? Is this where the arguments going in there, for you can expect that eighty percent The Republican House and Senate, let's say, is there are totally silent or a hundred either totally silent or basically starts echoing this thing by the last speaking of the the idea that transporters claimed that Hilary can do so, bird Hilary, should do so, but from can do something similar, this type of defence, the sort of half defence that it's a key but doesn't rising levels of crime is very containing. This is a this is very mishandling records is not.

Crime is handling classified documents of Istanbul. The crime is not a crime. Sexual relations is not or not. Relations is- is hurry hurry I mean so so anyway. What's what what interesting to me- is that Trump is pushing the limits of his support here and I think he'll be fine with it, because it is now clear that there is this chasm right. There's the trump supporters and there are the trump haters. And if you look at the polls, nine percent of Republicans say they've support trump and ninety percent Democrats hate him and there's

nothing in the solid gazer I am it. There's no one that no one has that. Are you now really liar whatever you know? No one to go back to nose point I think even depends on it and on the smoking gun. I've citizen on other up, says of the package that, if something like I dont, know trump himself having a call with ahead of the russian military intelligence unit. Saying yes, go get em. Gimme the emails whatever that something that would be incredibly stupid. But I'm just saying I just saying: if, if mauler comes up with, there was a deal

in Malaysia in nineteen. Ninety nine and part of the financing was underwritten by a russian from who at which had a shell company within which you know Trump had some interesting above above about. I think that would be a political disaster from the left and, more broadly, I think it's. I still think it's broadly liberals and the left that that are the weaker position in the sense that there I find not just in the U S, but also in Europe increasingly when, when they lose elections, they seek to sort of undue the result. Police, procedural and that a work only to an extended. But at some point you have to be able to win elections. Could you explain this because you just got back from England in your seeing something along these lines with Gregson, yet so

I live in support Rex it. I was a web based in the UK at the time of the remains supporter, but I have friends who were leaders in the bricks of programmes that campaign who are now facing a new enormous pressure from the from a centrally the UK, savage man that was deeply wounded by breaks it, and so there unleashing all the powers that an establishment can can throw at a bunch of insurgents. So there was, it is literally a missing check box in some filing that the brick projects I did and it was filed by some twenty four year old activists and the Electoral Commission there is- is going at this guy with all the women you know he's facing thousands of dollars. A fine of fines. Sorry has the pounds in fines. Others are having to quit their jobs and devote devote themselves full time to defending essentially what they

which was to bring about an election campaign in which the largest voter mandate ever voted in favour of leaving from Britain leaving the European Union. So I find this all very dangerous owners. I there's a it even more ridiculous parallel, so there is now this idea that the Russians were mysteriously fondling money to leave campaign, Thirty million dollars and secret russian money from a mysterious that came from somebody was supports UKIP and might have got it from Russia data that so we actually have a. Power collusion, Trang collusion thing now. This idea as well, because now there such a statement such a shadow over over the leave campaign abreks it that, with their should be another referendum, now remember

this is really astonishing, because a minute at the very least Trump lost lost the national popular vote and only one by eighty thousand votes in three states brags, it won by four percent in the largest vote. Vitaly Britain's history, so the notion four percent is not wasn't somehow mystically induced into being by. You know some russian money that problem almost certainly doesn't even exist, so that- and that is not likely to happen like you can see how it may happen that there will be another referendum, ethnic and it can be now. The questions will be diluted and maybe a multiparty question and then, over a long period of time, you'll see. Maybe Britain not formerly leave the European Union or leave it in some complicated way, whether a village will of the voters that was exercised in a very clear fashion and twenty

Sixteen is has been undone because the establishment wasn't prepare. It says you probably the more real back to american politics a little, but I think the problem. A realistic scenario is not impeachment, and removal from office boring some really, reaches thing, perhaps not rising to the bar of a presidential level call with the head of the Ministry of Defence and in Moscow, but something still have nevertheless pretty significant, at least for knowledge or complicity along those lines that could be unimpeachable offence. What more likely, in my opinion, is something that politically neutral him that that the mother profile, somebody within his immediate circle or perhaps even within his family, his subjects to a criminal crib, an indictment being diagnosed and necessarily been convicted, and that would the bottom would fall out of his credibility and Republicans would find him a toxic presence to be around and his agenda would be something that you couldn't touch that to me sounds like something else,

feasible is not that you will be delivered from the Trump error on the back of you know a lot of wicked horse, but it will nevertheless be the end of the trumpet era. The legislative phase, and even the political phase of the chamber, will be basically mooted right. So we have all sorts of potential scenarios that seat from falling and then there's the to prevent that then there's the like their scenario, which is that nothing is found on hit. Various people are convicted and I, the various things and mother says he can find no evidence of any direct connection between Donald Trump and Russia and liberals are crushed and conservatives rat. Rally in the boot. Maybe they start celebrating Mahler this horrible Mahler is the greatest thing ever could happen. I mean you know, look at look at regionally. Otto said that Michael Cohen was a great lawyer, loyal friends- and that was about five seconds ago- so I mean you don't know

Owens. Opinion of anything is fixed in this in this world and then we get to the question of the ownership of lives. This this week's outer owning the lips question, which is, is it the case that if this Football is pulled away from the Lucy in the form of whatever fate karma the football away for Democrats who are waiting to kick it yet again trumps going down, don't kick in Mahler. Let some that enough happens. The Kohen thing turns into nothing even if stuff comes out like it turns out that their p tape which by now you would say well, we all knew there was Peter Jerry, followed, say that that's pray,

in an area that appear to spell? If, if that were to happen, how Trump might even think this is because this will drive trump haters crazier and more impetus like in, when the impotent rage, the likes of which we will have never see right yeah, I'm not sure that, because I think part of owning the lives that part of the thrill of owning the lives is one thinks ones doing it. From at least some position of righteousness that you yourself Tromp is being misunderstood: you're you're, you're you're just set against him, Nothing is actually as bad as you think. I think, to the roof. Lives by saying: oh, it's! It's plenty bad! You just didn't get us to rethink

is this sort of same dynamic? It's pretty delicious I said this is not really it righteousness, as is right, nowhere, but it also strengthens the position of strength so long you survive the charges. You know you're untouchable your straight their strength there. If the. If there's I've saved us There's is a wipe out in November. For Republicans, the strength position is diminished significantly, so that just jabbing somebody on Twitter looks kind of pathetic and not really Now that's an interesting point. We ve gone back for the better so that you know trumpet be really wounded among Republicans, if they, you know if they have a terrible election, but you know that didn't happen to a bomb like a bomb. I had the worst midterms early in american history, practically And I wrote a peace that week after the midterm saying will know what is this was shot?

Repression and me, and I'm usually not that good depression. So that's why I'm that will know about the health of the Democratic Party. If, as a result of these midterms someone fields, a challenge to Obama from the left, or you know, from wherever, because he's wounded in the Republicans have new life. And yes, it will be bad for Obama. The way tat you can really against Bush. Ninety two was bad for Bush, but be a sign of strength in the party that not that it wasn't just an Obama, worshiping Party- and I might my candidate for that person was Russ, Feingold Wisconsin and not only mine, but people were whispering it or talking about it and in November two thousand and ten and Feingold said he wasn't going to run and no one ran against

Burma and, in fact the hollowing out of their democratic party just continue to pay lingers. Why? I don't think that their everyone, it there's gonna, be any big shift among Democrats, even if the smaller probe sort of fizzles or they don't even deliver on the honour and the wave as much as they think that they're going to because the lasted for three out of four consecutive election cycles. Democrats have had really bad cycles and at no point Have they ever convinced themselves that we need to change that? Something needs to happen on our end that were going in the wrong direction? I think that gets us towards doing your times at a torrent. Beth, yes, because it is indicative of this bizarre fixation, is wrong word, but it's sort of an idea that they are this hidden majority, that they represent the majority of public sentiment in the country. Even if it's not didn't elections? There is always something going on there: the gerrymandering hackers, voter suppression there's a real bad stuff in channeling, Donald Trump. That is bad stuff going on. We know on, but they

really feel like? They have to change in order to appeal to the new electorate for since twenty tacitly right? Ok, so that what knows referring to are these dueling up ads in the New York Times dueling, because bread, Stevens wrote one and then unhappily David Leonhard decided to write the opposite number, because he felt bread, Peace made him feel bad, so red headed we're, not a rat of course spread. Of course, longtime commentary, contributor, longtime colleague, of absorbs a good Friday dear old friend of mine was the you now is this sort of that ever tramper who is gripped. Who is grappling most seriously with the fact that Trump has done things and said things and acted and ways of which he approves, and that this is having some effect on how he thinks about this, but it may still negative tromp. So he wrote this up ad.

Last week called how Trump one reelection and twenty twenty I'm going to. Read it, but basically what's interesting about it. Is that he's arguing against interest? That is, you know, he probably thinks Trump should lose and twenty twenty, because it would be better for the country because he's such a terrible yell when role model and in our opponent of truth and all that, but he looks at he says if he wins will win, because the economy is good because he hasn't gotten us into any wars, because you know he's he's old enough of the promises that he made that everybody who voted for last. I will vote for this time and he may win one more And that is an argument against interim strike. Then David Leonhard, who is a who is another communism, was hired explicitly to bees, are reliable, leftwing calmness, even though he was an economics reporter before there. So you can really tell them has eaten

Ex coverage was nice and balanced solution arts piece which came out today. I think, or yesterday says in and it was a lot simpler than it seemed in? What he lays out is a scenario in which everything he wants to have happened, happens, so it's great Elizabeth warns. The nominee Eric holder is the vice presidential candidate, the normal rules of politics do apply. Donald Trump is zero, was really unpopular and people really didn't. Like him, and he didn't fix things because of equality the solid GDP growth has not translated into middle class income gains The women women don't like and manure is online, so there is a restaurant all every thing. It's all was all a dream

how does a nightmare and we're waking up and it's all over, and this, I think, speaks to us terrible intellectual weakness on the part of liberals and the left, which is they don't like reality. Now they don't like the fact that they lost a thousand legislative and lower. You know in the municipal seeds and low level seats in the in the Obama error. They don't like Heaven was the house like having lost the Senate. They don't like having lost the presidency and their version of where that is to say what didn't happen. I just want to add one thing to the description of lean arts, peacekeeping. It's important forever, exactly what you were saying. Also he he talks about trumps, actual twenty. Sixteen, when, as a fluke as a sort of perfect storm, and that that that's that's why

brought us trouble, which is inches where's. Dismissing all the other reasons that might have contributed to transplant, including problems within the Democrats. So when republicans got into trouble. In eighteen, ninety, United nineteen. Eighty Republicans Bush was at night one percent, the Poles and nineteen. Ninety one and looking thirty. Eight percent of the vote sixteen percent off his margin for fifty percent of its margin in eighteen. Eighty eight loses the presidency, the Bill Clinton and I wrote a book about how terrible the condition of the Republican Party was big. How this happened David from. One called dead right and we started the weekly standard magazine and, in part, a sort of help guide. The republican Party through its it's dollar, even though it had won this big congressional. And there was a lot of intellectual ferment and the idea that you need it

criticise and go at your own side and try to dig into what was wrong to try to find ways in which to make it right, and I see almost none of that. Others on the democratic and liberal sign. I see it, but it's terrifying. I mean It is the others the. Obviously. This is the opposite of that of the deal c of the ninety nine to push them triangulate nice and get with the centre and they get away from the Jimmy Carter years. It is we need to be more, I simply liberal than upon the was upon the was too centrist too willing to compromise. The weird thing that I noticed when you're talking to people were partisans really aggressive partisans is that Democrats will contend that all Republicans ever did was obstruct. They said no to everything, and all I did was when elections that entire times all we ever need to do is obstruct you talk to a tea party republican and

will save the precise opposite Republicans capitulated at every possible turn? They were too accommodating? They had nobody's interests in mind, but their own re election campaign, and that means getting really good with lobbyists in Washington. It is this bizarre sort of. I don't know what to call it. Just as this construct that you work out for yourself to justify your own aggressive, partisan, ideological, regional, wave, saying either those guys they did it the leadership that he was banner Eric Canter invader. They all Mitch, because this is the great remember there was a whole right wing hate on which Mcconnell from ninety, from twenty, like twelve to twenty sixteen Mitch but Connally, wouldn't fighting was its blueberry with the data should be Eric. Eric society should be kicked out. People were supporting his Republican. Rival in twenty four team for the Kentucky Santa enough for the cadavers is that now Mitch Mcconnell is the hero, macroeconomic who's, the guy that tell them

to eventually mile, while this year, which will call you screw with much Mcconnell cocaine, and what are the same people, The same people who wanted to slice his throat open because doubt now they liked what he's doing so. It's it's them it's. Never there It's never, therefore, now because the answer is that they do needed. The Elsie is that they do need to moderate and be more centrists, and I remember that, just a day after an end not even really in ideology but in appearance and probably just abandoning the ideological commitment to the identity, politics that suffices for ideas on the left. That is the very first response. It Donald Trump Foe State of the union, the joint session that he had they had Kentucky Governor Steep Bashir, whose a

a guy with a southern accent, delivering a pretty democratic, liberal message. Any dimly lit grimy diner somewhere South amazing Dixon was not an appealing placed eat, but it was it was. It was the kind of message that they were going to strike it. I saw that I said this is this is terrifying. They got the message of this election, one hundred percent, and this is the direction they are going to go and the democratic response to that responds to Donald Trump was to say what is this? Who is the southern White guy pretending to talk for my democratic party? They drummed them out,

haven't gone, that back at the russian sense. Look after the last election, Hilary supporters light Hilary or loved Hilary because she was Hilary they they liked her celebrity. They they were into whatever they. They believed. Her personal story was Bernie supporters loved his substance. They love, but he had to say they loved where they believed his sympathies light. They look they they they wanted that future. For the party, it is twenty eight July twenty eighteen. What has changed? There's there's nothing, there's no Hilary vision that is now being discussed, we consume a lot of opinion. I really do believe that there is the the rights. The intellectual right is more vibrant, more interesting, more willing to engage in contradictory ideas and argument and argue amongst each other and even entertain some ideas that they want the severely like. Then the left is, and you could get the opposite impression from just the data data on cable news, for example, where it seems like everybody's spry. Mary interest is to be as pro Trumpery Anti trumpets possible and is really only to pull

That is not my daily experience. I think, on the on the right. There's a lot of vibrancy. What on the left? There is vibrancy of the kind that I think syrup previously said, was terrified, which is to say that the that all the passion and all of the intellectual fire power is being brought to bear? on slicing the identity, politics, pie, thinner and thinner and thinner and thinner and using the cultural power that they have to shame and silence and blackmail and threaten people who are not falling in with the programme at the obvious, easy locations spot. This is on college campuses, but it's happening in businesses. It's happening in

You know a grass roots organisations everywhere in which, whatever over arching mission, you might have ends up being so soon in the need to check off every pc box, and you know so, like the Anti Defamation League, which is an organization death, I suppose, We created, in the wake of the LEO Frank, lynching to fight Anti Semitism it now has a task force on massage any, and it's not you semitic lithography, either its sovereignty writ large or small

there's a lot of that, and that is where the energy is going. It's a kind of a moment of self criticism, you dose of stalinist self criticism. Everybody is being forced to go through Noah's right that there was this brief, maybe two month period, where suddenly there was this flourishing industry of of ribbon liberal reporters and and. Writers going to Trump country. Him answered me nice. I want to listen, we listen worry, but it, but it ended. I would find it very well. They were like they don't like what bill. I think here's the problem slicing dicing that much identity grounds is were actually heading. I think, as I see it, it toward an age of of cultural consolidation. Were Americans want a kind of collective

solidarity, the nation state as a sort of organizing principle for responding to the challenge of the times borders. Some ways are coming back, not just in the U S and around the world and say that there has to be something that you can appeal to the set of sort of symbolism set of national consolidation that then you can get around an eye on his enemies. Really, maybe that's the one single glass of wine that had, I think from still gets that in his with his weirder of animal intelligence, gets that in a way that I think left doesn't. While there were others there was hilarious, little bits, e thing that happened a couple of days ago, where there was a piece about a very leftwing guy. In that we can't remember how to pronounce I've, never say, shot macklewain, but I think you, Miguel Metallic, so whatever recalling Song Sean, is the founder inventor popularize or extend

of the genius phrase: abolish ice, ok, so He's the one now risk Job and saying, abolish ice, and this one is saying, abolish ice and that one thing abolish ice now ice. The immigration in customs and customs enforcement agency is which was created. Two thousand three is now a bug bare of the left. However, is it really a great idea in a world in which they Democrats need to win those? Eighty thousand it's back in the three states for leading figures in the Democratic Party to call for the abolition of an agency that wants to enforce emigrations. Long slits, dissect Hazael bananas in that. But now we have to go to what happened in ok, we'll gravely this distances. Ice thing is regrettably, stupid what they mean by abolish ice, is abolished. Cp, be they don't have

problem with any Phoebe is the customs and border protection? This is these: if the agency responsible for that breaking up the families at the border, which is what inspired this whole campaign, has very little or nothing to do with ice, which is enforcement in the interior. This is on the border, which is what they want, but they can't say, break up boredom Foresman China, away consent, brick melt I'd date that play ball, but the actual politicians can arrive at a liberals hate ice because ice is now getting kind of aggressive and it's going into the inside of the country and going after people were here illegally and arresting them. And you know this is not acceptable to too liberal opinion which doesn't like it. But southern crazy thing that happened is that there is a mother group of far leftists who pod cast under the name chop a trap house. Don't ask me why

But it's called travel trap house. They are outraged because they feel that shown. The Callaway has stolen. Therefore gone main street by getting actual politicians to support. There's data, what death it's their their pure hatred of ice is being corrupted by the fact that mainstream politicians have decided to take the main chance. I think this will help them get support. In the party for four twenty. Twenty, that's insane. If you want your policy to come to fruition and for ice to be abolished, you want leaving democratic pop pop party figures tis to chant your slogan, so then it becomes.

The democratic platform and of the Democrats, women, twenty twenty. You can actually abolish ice, but they don't want to abolish eyes. Do they they wanted just attack isles. This is, I think this is the self described dirt bag. Am I right. That's right that gets the sub targets that are really interested in building coalitions. I'm thinking it's pretty much more about owning. The cons only weakens their does. Everyone. Just owning each other, but nobody but they're, not only anybody, because this is the worst issue. I've ever heard of. Abolishing ices the war I mean there have been bad political issues before, but you know when report set abolish the IRS, like everybody, hates the IRA you know enormous numbers of people think that enforcing imago,

should law is a good thing and not a bad in Oakland somewhere there was a raid where ice was interdiction, a human trafficking ring, and so that's one of the things I stars and all these liberal activists came out with signs. Basically saying: don't you know: our neighbours by law and will open the mayor of Oakland contacted the city government of Oakland to say they were staging this rate and the mayor vocal in called activists, group Told them where the rain was gonna, be I mean that's, not gonna help them

Let's get elected twenty to enjoy the Baron stories Resident Iceland, though it's in my inner libertarian, picks up when we have these conversations- and I do say that ices has some problematic elements to it, like any law enforcement agency, there are too many of them there too. Many over brought agencies at police powers, ices implicated in warrantless raids, some of them violent. The agency could stand to be reformed and have, moreover, site, but abolishing it isn't necessarily with cars, I would say, however, that if democratic gonna come to the table and say we need to start abolishing federal agencies, I have a list somewhere that baby don't go circling. But the interesting thing to me that the Democrats written in such a place that not Do they not have someone earth big figure coming I'd say saying: ok, we need to moderate and in the ways that we're talking about don't even someone like say, Obama, who was great at speaking as if he was talking about moderation,.

When he had in mind and succeeded in doing some very, very ambitious and somewhat radical thing. While having all his defenders. So what are you talking about? The man is a moderate he's, he's right in the Middle EAST, not he's not being rather than working with him. Why are you working with? it is it's now point of pride to sound radical. Forget forget that you that you want to actually do radical things. That's where you were you you have to be part of the political theatre on the left is now wrapped up in being in sounded at the risk of, however, agreeing with David Lee ART Leonard. It does seem to me today if the elections are held the day, that it be very difficult for Donald Trump to perform, as he did in the upper MID West. Now there was a public him out, couplet is go, it's got some problems with that there was some bad waiting. Issues would have

but the guy was under. I think, twin. Almost twenty points underwater as far as approve of real really was a lion authority. The very real and Minnesota was concept and Michigan, and so breaths proposition is, he wins all the states he ever one end of honour- and that's just strikes me as really really unlikely. Today. Everything could change in two years, but I mean those perfectly distributed. Eighty thousand votes the government West are very, very difficult to replicate, even in the best of circumstance, law enforcement. We is yet and add because of the way they were, they exist in a funny way. If you think about it, it's not that hard for Democrats to zoom in almost like you know, radiation Dulce on a cancer. The way you know it. Acts of this sort in Rio and go figure out. We need to get to seven thousand african American, more african Americans to vote in May again then voted last time and we will spend,

hundred million dollars to get those twenty seven thousand votes, and if we get them in, has the same number of votes, we win Michigan back and the same in Albania and the same. You know in in in Wisconsin and that's the ballgame and it's over and Trump does half do. Democrats have in that sense what brats argument is that all things being equal assuming no terrible crisis and the economy sort of pearls along at this level? That Democrats won't have an argument to take trump down, but you could imagine eight We technically run election the way Obama's, twenty twelve election was technically really run and the way Hilary was exactly not technically brilliantly run. Who would they would say? Okay, this is

all we need to do. I mean I once spoke to end after twelve. I spoke to during and after bill burden was important: Obama, figure and on the real act and he said we knew that we had to depressed these vote in Ohio. We knew that Ohio, If we want Ohio, that would be it and we needed to depress Romney's vote no high, we spent a hundred million dollars in Ohio, and what have we say? We didn't do healthy way to do this. We said day, Bain a vain did, this being killed a woman with cancer, Bain Pain, polluted that bet you're, rich guy, spun monster throws people out of work. We can you, don't consolidates businesses and and and eliminates jobs, and it worked like a charm

because there are ways technically, if you understand the electorate and what you need in a trump has given them that mappen we set for two years on this podcast. Almost he doesn't expand the map feed. Doesn't better than he did last time. He is not going to win and that's the one cigarette your site, but I'm in breadth, says he'll win because he'll do fine, like things will remain fine bright and that we don't know that what they did me as why owning the lives and so delicious deserve. But if you look up there about companies, comfortably smuggling and he's gonNA unveiling, this is how you speeding, you may be here. Smuggler you here is the serious, more in New York. I know some years a question for everybody. If you, if you put a lot of sodium pentothal in a syringe and gave it to read Stevens, would he say I really believe everything? I wrote there

Ok, ok, I well many people in the front or saying bread doesn't really believe said. I believe it because I he's right. In other words, I think you know the absence of a knowing who the person is who is going to be the democratic nominee? assuming, as you can't you sort of have to assume that things whereas they are because you can't imagine one unexpected crisis is gonna arise, the other problem, a trump is that he creates crises right, which is the last thing we're talking about. Is the Trump created crisis that he then resolves and then says that he solve everything, so the Soho, the trumpery of Christ? there were several trumpery vices. The bait. The crisis with data was the biggest one of the last month. Where he went and said now does exist. From their pull out everything they, then they also widely lids, and these, like NATO, has never been stronger

strongest. Nato has ever been and sort. What did he say the early today was it about NATO Was it was going out of his back and business now? Data was going out of business, but now it's back in business. While he was the only one who was trying to draft so doubts back in business. Gesine! Stop these no longer trying to out of business, but in some sense now show me if it's not for the United States, NATO's pretty weak alliance, but Well, yeah, I've. Ok, that's true, that is no argument for what trumps it does not the border crisis was another right because of what the Borg has got away from home, because they thought that this was a great political message that would not hurt them. There would be no unintended consequences from announcing that it

we. If you come to this country illegally, we will arrest you and take your children away, but are we at other good way of saying that, which is to say it is american policy that, if you cross illegally border. We will arrest you, we do not arrest children, we do not put children into our penal system, so we will you so we rest sure that children are not going to become. You know we're. Not three role does not going to be in in a prison in jail in Texas, but that's not what so. They ended up with Americans. Thinking that you know they were gleefully separating children from their parents but I mean I don't even that. That's not really the crisis, then solution and then everything is great. It's just This weird thing where he has a fat and then Somebody says: oh, do you have the names like, though, is also the one he's creating and not really solving is the trade in other ways. Keeps multiply, but you know he likes it. We ve had a couple of of.

Rather Asia there's a couple of whether this is that's another one that you you had. This press conference with younger it at the EU, and he said, he's gonna buy more merciful means and all our soybean problems are solved are certain problems are not solved. This waiting rooms are in Asia, have nothing to do with Europe, and that's really just, as you know, a set of proposes resilient perfunctory nod towards the desire to have an agreement. There was no agreement there, but you would know that from talking to download drums defenders are watching them in the media, at issue is worth the gorge or trump himself at me. That's when we say he solves the crises he creates. He often Serbs declares themselves that's up at their actually. Yes, all right this is jeez talking about soybeans, I just want to point out that never before have Jews,

talked about soybeans worthy ten seconds. We just did thirty seconds. That's the kind of content that you can expect. A commentary magazine podcast. So for sorrow memory, a Green Walden harassment, I'm John POD words keep the candle burning.