Some guy Well so the commentary magazine podcast today's Thursday July nineteen, twenty eighteen, I'm John onwards, the editor, commentary these seventy, so my dear old monthly of intellectual analysis, political probity and cultural criticism from a conservative. Effective, we ask you to join us, live we're not asking you. We are offering making an offering that you can join us alive July thirtieth. In July thirtieth at six p m Comedy seller, Greenwich Village for the first ever lie recording of the Commentary magazine podcast for detail.

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to remain, and we all know- and those are the filthiest jobs. That's not true is true a couple of years of dirty jobs. Locally, no cleaner, jokes were clean, ok, disable, my my dirty jobs for my two and four four year old river end and, of course, senior writer Sarve Amari who, as a as a relatively recent and very passionate Catholic convert. Of course, I think, would you would you would be uncomfortable feel guilty telling a telling a dirty Joe could be my guest probably okay, so I dont like dirty jobs. To be honest, I I I I'm an enormous comedy fan and sound how many fan, but I never like the really were run a bad stuff, but that's sick jobs. I kind of well, I like sick jokes, about economic herds job. Since I was a teenager and of course I I love

the more like you know the dead baby Joe? I nevertheless Heller jokes. I thought we were talking about what that all. That is what happened I just as it serves. Upjohn robotic jokes. I never liked it baby, Jos really, ok, I have to confess that I am in the camp of if something it's funny. It has its own defence, like I'm, not part of the that's not funny. You know intellectually room with you. Yet I have a different reaction. I guess the dead baby, Joe, ok, fair, fair enough, fair enough. I've I've been revealed as a Fan of the dead baby, I've heard that Baby Jochen Fort Area, I haven't heard a chill out here. You haven't- heard hotels, judges, it's too dangerous to tell a job, that's what Chris Rock and Jerry Cycle and others have said they will not perform at college. Colleges colleges, which were that centres of the comedy business in the United States.

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July thirtieth and of course, subscribed to commentary magazine just gotTA commentary magazine dot, com and click on the subscribe button. You get a few free reads every month and then we ask subscribe one thousand nine hundred and ninety five for a digital subscription, two thousand nine hundred and ninety five for an all access approaching, including our beautiful monthly magazine in your mailbox eleven times a year, and I did not make the mailbox magazine solecism. So we are past that at least that hurdle for today, at least so guys we concluded on Monday by podcast. We were, we have a nice civil discussion, the many things and discussed the problem, an issue of the treatment of Teresa may by Donald companies that then we Walt Stout and everybody had one sham, as we were eating lunch. The new clear bomb of press conferences exploded in Helsinki.

I warned you know. I said we should like talk about something entirely different like we should talk about that, no flowers or baseball or something because we were Gonna get to talk about Helsinki in that things, were going to get bad, but we did it anyway and damned if the president didn't yeah. I read your validate everything that we said beforehand, because it, did not anticipate the depths of the horrors and which we were gonna find ourselves. I rarely give the president's more credit and he deserves. And it is my impression that the substance of the meeting would matter in the press conference would be bad but out. What are we gonna talk about about the press conference? As you said, the fall out is still settling over the posts. Nuclear environment that was devastated by this abhorrent display onstage, with Lattimer Putin in Helsinki

I get an egg we after I s Refresh Bobo, had it began to some a bit Abe. You know in that in the world in which we have been the subjects we talking about for the last couple weeks, all involving this question of separating out trumps, personal behaviour from his policy. Or can you like? His policy is like in his policies that outweigh problems with his behaviour has rhetoric or whatever, and I would say that you were tilting new tilts of closer to that. You like the policy side and Eureka, to overlook the bad behavior, but here I think we have a kind of you are expressing different thoughts about this just before

You walk in the issue here is aren't even though know how you tease the policy side out for, or the behaviour sighed out from the policy side. In this I mean the his whole appearance in Helsinki, was a manifestation of the personal side of tromp, of of of of who. This was not ace of thought out policy announcement. It was. It was a manifestation of how he wants to conduct himself, how we want to conduct themselves, these heavy Putin and another leaders and and his personal at war, with with our intelligence community. So at a certain point, it's the the dichotomy. The binary of Kant, Trump. Anderton and from policy. Actually breaks falls apart because with it at some point, they did the to serve come together with horrific results, rights

Oh I'm! Actually, the truth is what mattered here, where the policy implications not The personal behaviour, if he wants to in a press conference try to talk, nicely they care about the person standing. Next to me whether it is a bad burnt, that's not that's not ill, be it's a bad behaviour of it. It may bloody ill considered what matters here was what he said on policy matter yet, but but what he said on policy matters came up: as result of of not of his of any sort of ideological framework, it came, became what he said: things as as a result of of of his personal make up, and

The fact is, of course, than him things got more muddled and stranger and more depressing in some ways when he tried to sort of walk back some of this stuff incorrect, his own record on because as we support, none of it actually means anything when he says anything, and that that's why I say this was a manifestation of this sir personal corks and not and not, grounded in the enemies of ideas, but that he has about policy. So sort of way. We talk about him things, not meaning anything meaning He it's all evanescent to him and he does not feel constrained by his own words, mostly and doesn't feel as though his words established a temple there are precedents or anything like that. Therefore, he can say one thing and do another hour, breeder whew enact a completely different policy, from the one that he lays out, but I'm not, but there is something that has to do with his

the standing of his own presidency and what goes on inside the United States with the electorate that is, the way the present United States. Words are viewed outside our borders rise. So let me give a good example of this came from the post. Helsinki fall out as now would call it which was the interview recorded, while the president was still in Helsinki with Tucker Karlsson, a Fox news, and yet it aired after he returned and after his bizarre why back attempt and that, in an interview at one point, the Tucker posed the question. Look. Montenegro joined NATO in two thousand and seventeen last year and what, if Montenegro gets in a war, what why do we have to defend Montenegro and right away President said well, I'm not look. I'm not happy about it, either

and then he when I wondered that too, I wondered what did I too am I an enemy went on and said, and especially onto negro people. You know. Are it both of them by the way kept saying Montenegro, which drought drove me crazy? They wouldn't enunciate that the kind of party in Montenegro, but anyway he said there very aggressive, p, You know I saw they're gonna, they could start something and any good and there you are you're in world war. Three end it's the most kind of peace our statement about a nation. You know, who you, with with the size and population, roughly of greater Iowa that has as a military sub about one thousand five hundred standing and five hundred reserve is so all told. Two thousand troops there has for the Balkans is a remarkable thing. Has no beef with any of its neighbours for years has been essentially, allowing the line from Washington, which was, if you try to get into NATO and if you do what we,

For example, you recognised Kosovo as an independent nation, which mainly the mountain ethnic. Montenegro's and Serbs who live in Montenegro hate that, because Kosovo's this sort of Muslim enclave nevertheless they did, what Washington told them they're like the there. You know it's a corrupt little democracy, but nevertheless it's a democracy that has told the West Burn line for a very long time and was finally as a result of it rewarded with NATO membership? You tell her, Neither did I have we. Aggressive street, which may be They did in the eighteenth and nineteenth century when they defeated the the re repulse several kind of turkish invasions, I and occupations, and they were known as fierce mountain warriors, but it's like it's like a tourist country, a million tourists come to see the coast a year. Its tiny but it has massive implications when the present its it says that their aid aggressive and good start of war and b that he's not

sure why he has to defend them under article five of NATO. This has huge ramifications. Right and he doesn't even think about it. I just picked on Montenegro for bits, right. Well, I mean so First of all, no one's attacking Montenegro. That's the first thing, that's not lower started getting ahead of ourselves. We haven't even done. The press conference was resolved over the breadth of an example of the, but what I was trying to say is that so term goes the press conference. He brown noses Putin. He says that there was no russian interference or meddling in that sixteen election, none alone. He first, he said we deserved it, we deserve it, because, essentially as though this is like that, if this is like a cop comes your burgled right and in the police shows up and then the cop says. Well, you had hidden easily picked lock on your d.

Or so it's really your fault that you were burnt. That was the logic of this that here's, when it have that that that this, that the crime that, if Europe, if your raw, if you, if a crime is done to you, you are response because you you didn't, have five locks on your door, the fascinating elements of the Trump administration. The Trump era is the extent to which the pro trump right, which is contorting itself into this box that doesn't really fit has embraced. The non intervention is left and probably the most, the per Now Lydia looms largest in that wing of the of the Democratic Party is going and Stephen have Cohen. Now, if you're, a russian studies major in the early two, thousands as I was in college you'll have to This guy he's assigned reading. He is probably the face of a movement that blames the United States for any and every act of russian aggression and use all over foxes. These days

because that is essentially the posture. The present we should explain. Stephen have corners not only somebody who was oppressor printed out, Professor Russians, that very little, and he is the husband of the editor publisher and owner of the nation Katrina Vanden hearing of Ireland where yeah the nation, which was a soviet It was a communist, my apologies for the Soviet Union theories and fortys and is now apologists for potent right, Stephen Cohen rights articles saying that the magnetic ski act, which we will get to will later this ACT of Congress that sanctioned various members of the Putin inner circle for their role in the a jailing and eventual death of a Russian

Her name's Sergei magnates key that this act was you know it. Active hostility toward Putin and and the terrible- and you know monstrous in all this so he is a far left winger. Who is? an apologist for Russia, Nationalist Putin, going on Fox news. Particularly on talker Karlsson, show repeatedly to defend Putin from the perspective of a far leftist on these supposed Trump right wing all right. I'll Donald Trump has been so survival, both physically and rhetorically, towards Vladimir Putin that he is being castigated. Libertarians just in a marsh, is calling we need, then, is has the Martians Congress Jelly from Fishing Monsieur Sars and his eyes pretty much?

isolationist wing of the right, but not pretty much ease, I mean absolutely is so he's like this is set our cause back, because it makes conflict more likely now we're gonna get to Montenegro, because, while Donald Trump spent, all was ours. Onstage, emboldened in Mr Putin and went back stage, have a conversation where he he questioned american defence commitment. Rather, sent unambiguous, ambiguous signal about the extent to which America is committed to its defence comment. It's an hour in NATO and the Atlantic Treaty is probably- dangerous thing he could have done. I think the single biggest question looming over the first half of the twentieth century is: will Vladimir Putin exceed twenty first century? Our century Wilson you succeed in shattering the NATO alliance and the way in which he would do that is to test the alliance's commitments to the defence of its periphery. Explicitly probably in the Baltic Sea, and are you do that? Is you engineer in event? In America,

Kyle, ok, pause before you get before we get to that. We need to go into the preceding part, which is when Trump an Tucker had this conversation and Tucker horribly said: why should my son die for Montenegro? Thus, echoing, I think unconsciously The most notorious magazine, article, a twentieth century, why die for Danzig published in a socialist french newspaper in nineteen, thirty nine, because one of the treaty, of the Second World WAR, was Nazi Germany demanding that Gdansk Danzig behind and then over to Germany as part of this giant. Territorial Grandma polish restate and the idea was why

Ebay die for Danzig in this became a notorious raise because the ideas, if you don't die for Danzig, sixty million people die in the five years after you don't die for Danzig, if you can, if you can die for Danzig, in small bore you save sixty million lives or- and this is the key to all deterrent theory. If you are willing to die for Danzig, you don't have to die for Danzig and the Second World WAR doesn't start that if your adversary believes that it is a key. Annabelle possibility, not even it at certainty, but a credible possibility that you will die for Danzig, the cost of trying to take Danzig we'll be too high for him to take. If, on the other hand, he understands that you're, not gonna die for Danzig, then he'll go just go, take Danzig, he takes it and then you say what the cost of this is too high, Then you have the most ruinous war in

three mankind. So when they say don't die for Montenegro right, why should my Sunday for Montenegro another part no part of it that this is, of course, that if Tucker Sunward have to Montenegro would be that he had enlisted in the? U S armed forces by choice as an adult making an adult choice to serve his country and therefore was not being sent. Five months without Ito against his will to die. To serve his country and and and be at risk? But here's here's my point so article five of The NATO treaty obliges every member to come to the defence of their member who is under military attack, that is the heart the military alliance of our been invoked, as everybody says, only one to after nine eleven and therefore we have seen, is all these NATO members coming to our defence.

Fighting with us in Afghanistan, we have never been called upon to fight, Russians on the ground, but when we invoked article five they came and they see us so the Donald Trump Card, cross. An answer is why, we die for Montenegro because they die for us, they are the more of them have died. For us, then more than Americans have ever died for them since the beginning of the NATO alliance just added rich little detail, which is that Montenegro as we said, has a tiny army of fifteen hundred standing troops nevertheless before I was ever a member of NATO, it sent troops, mountaineer type scouts and so forth to Iraq and Afghanistan. Why? Because it wanted to show that as part of the western family, it's it's hard to fence, which is why they were subsequently rewarded with NATO membership. So Montenegro, in fact, were willing to

die for the. U S, troops have fought right: devil troops have fought in Iraq, they fought in Afghanistan, they fought in Vietnam, they fought in a book, border conflicts and, in other places that that we were involved with but gratitude dumbing only go so far and the argument I don't really care about that. We care about is american interests and the american interests are easy to explain. Nato has been streamline good at preventing conflict on the continent, really get the last seven, and not just between Russia and the continent, but fractious members of the alliance itself, Montenegro. The year before it ascended to NATO member. That was the subject of a failed russian attempt to decapitate the government russian military until Hence was involved in a plot to destabilize the government in assassinate the Prime Minister spoke out there you can look, it up is not uncommon the Russians to do really reckless stuff in order to prevent NATO ascension because nay

essentially means it's off the block they can provoke, but they can't do anything to reckless what What happened in Ukraine and Georgia into doesn't for was these countries were on NATO Ascension track, and then people got The line which has been bandied about by the Stephen of Colon Wing of the Democratic Party and has been accepted by many of the republican Party? Is that NATO eats the eastward expansion is provocative, is aggressive and destabilizes russian politics and a can lead them to act out and that's why? when they were on this track, it was sort of halted and in the interim, both countries have been invaded and carved up by Russia. They never before in Georgia and Ukraine. They will Ruby NATO members because an order for them NATO members you will have to absorb those complex thereafter, essentially taken off the board and that's the game. The game is taking these countries off the board and-

ensure that they are no longer in play from Moscow and the real epicenter of the event that we all fear would happen is probably Estonia, probably tall, and that is a country that has been subjects: provocations, military provocations in the past, both cyber activity and cross border events by russian personnel, and the question that will be presented to the latin american alliances? Do we really want to go to war and risk nuclear apocalypse, because these are really big nuclear powers for talent, for tiny, tiny talent? That's why the deterrence on the problem, is that I don't know the answer to that? I know what I know. Everybody doesn't want that, but a wine structures have a real logic of their own. Things, can snowball and get out of hand fast right, cascading cycles of reciprocal attacks and so the whole boys. You create a structure that it raises. This is what I said before. That raises the cost of doing business so high that it's not worth the risk to put right he thinks that there is even a sixty percent chance that NATO,

go to war with Russia in Estonia, then he's like. I was, however, that, because Russia loses a conventional, why not russian of the russian military is a paper tiger right, but I'm saying if there's a sick christian chance that it now, but if there's a ten percent chance and the ancillary benefit, is there's a ten percent chance that we got the nervous to war and the exposure, the fact that NATO is unwilling now, in its current interracial, to live by its treaty obligations and article five that NATO lapses, which is actually what would happen, which is why the poorest doing right now, so he doesn't Estonia, is that a strategic interest in Estonia, but it could be the pie of occasion that destroys NATO and Trump just made. That possibility, which would be a worldwide crisis larger. I believe, then, any that we ve

probably seen since may be the soviet invasion of Afghanistan. And me, we were so sick, as if we really are talking about this post war, post, world war, two structure of the planet and its collapse, and the right of conflict between nation state the EC is out of me that that would set off on a whole new cascade of complex, especially because everyone would prevent the fact that we had blown up and so therefore, what Trump did as insanely, irresponsible, unspent completely irresponsible because he just made thinkable something that should be unthinkable, and this is the about deterrents like when everybody said, why does the United States say that we won't that? Would we why the United States, say we're not going to have a first strike against the Soviet in the ninety days, we could, just we could say no first strike no first use because we're not going to launch a nuclear war

but at the Soviet Union, then that's thought US we we might have to retaliate, but we're not gonna. So why don't? We just say it and then we'll say it as its honest and the answer is, cause. If you say you won't do a first strike. You re the possibility that this, We will think you won't do a second strike they will launch weapons at us, they probably won't, but that there is no reason to increase the risk of nuclear war in that fashion trump himself. The campaign kept saying. I don't want to say what I'm gonna do. Unex wire Zeke as I wanna be unpredictable. Remember that in foreign policy It's like I wanna, be unpredictable. I want people want to know what I'm gonna do. Will you dont want to increase the possibility that you are going to be ineffectual in the face of militant, it is not a thing that you want to be unpredictable about. You want potent to think. If you attack

no country you're gonna get the crap kicked out of, So don't do it. That's the best way to keep the peace by the way that it just a really close the gate on the on the no nothing isn't that both Tucker Karlsson, who, you think would know better, would read more and president Tromp displayed in that, in our view, there are also others there. There are other strategic benefits to having Montenegro being a member of NATO. If you think, if you think Russia is red and NATO is a valuable deterrent which who knows, if you can assume that with with this president, but it there's a daisy cause. I did a lot of reporting when there was the x.

Debate, which is already. This administration was acting a bit hesitant when, when it was time to ratify whether Montenegro would join so I went to put greets. I interviewed the Prime minister right after the attempted coup is a phrase for the Prime Minister is first interview with a western since the attempted coup- and the first thing they say, is that we have a we have. We could offer Russia a fresh water, refueling naval, refueling port on the on the Mediterranean. So when you add Montenegro's Anita power. You lockout Russia out o the Western Mediterranean. It also. It means that one Montenegro joins with Croatia already being a member and Greece as well. You lock Russia out of the hinterland and Albania you lock Russia out of the whole western Mediterranean region, now again, you see, Russia is not a threat and NATO is worthless than all that's all bets are off, but if you're normal

and you understand how the world works, you know that debt it had a Russia is still a threat and be NATO's war. Therefore locking it out of the out of the western met is a useful thing which the Tucker should have known. If the does anyone know is another argument that they made. Is that you know the ball bought the Balkans, man we're pretty dangerousness like this is like the fourteenth balkan country to join NATO. It's also, reality, but young kids. I insight into how many countries are in the sizeable benefit rustics, but it's also important to note that this is the cheap way to do this for the United States, that is to say, if what you need is a protection against Russia having a freshwater port for Swoboda, Now I have no idea what reward you know and able to us or run ships and aircraft at an inn in various places.

Through through the waters of southern in over the southern Europe? If we have to be involved in some f to retard russian advances there. We ve gotta move aircraft, craft carriers. We would have to build base that we would have to pay Monterrey rebuild the bay and, U S, but whatever it is enormous. The expensive, if you have a military alliance- and this is where the two percent on defence stuff and all that gets a military alliance- the entire country stands as a bulwark against the against a potential revenge is right. And you don't have to occupy a you. Don't have to have troops there. You don't have anything the country its as an as an entity is the bulwark. That's cheap, not expensive, building physical bulwarks and and having physical barriers like aircraft carriers, and what that

insanely expensive. So simply as a practical matter of what costs us too much. Nato is the cheapest form of defence that we I have not the most expense that, which is why the Russians, in the lead up to two NATO accession for Montenegro Hatch, this plan, where during a like general election day. They would in a rocket that police officers, which were who were really russian and serbian operatives dressed as police officers, would rush government buildings kidnap then, Prime Minister Jakarta, which and essentially just just eat, was a coup. There was a coup that country would suddenly become a sort of pro russian state and First, the right, the serbian state, which often is closer to Moscow, denied it and was like now,

but even the Serbians came round and said: no, it was a real real prop plot and there is no way Montenegro's puny, not very good intelligence services, could have fake this. In order to, I guess, get get NATO accession and much more likely explanation is that Russia was bold enough to try to use military intelligence structures, Two to turn the whole government I have held you allowance that in that that's how to me tells you a lot that their willing to make such a reckless gambit in order to prevent ascension, because once ascension occurs, you can no longer perform those kind of activities. That's too risky to reckless. The last thing that letter Putin wants is to provoke a reciprocal comment, no response from the western alliance, that is again, but they will lose where anybody were everywhere in up to the edge, but not over there. But he does want to test where that age is consular and I met that's what makes it so date right and an let's. Let's just spent,

He laid on ten to fifteen years from now, when you know if we Going down this path in a linear fashion it to see how NATO was going to survive, this kind of assault the trumpeters gonna pull at. But let me that if we go down the road ten to fifteen years. You know who knows of personal solemnly and he may be out of her, and does that mean? If you think that put is succeeded by somebody. Who is less reckless potent could be succeeded by somebody who was vastly more reckless who wishes to put who wishes to Has this even more strongly they interview lock down. If you like down the NATO alliance in the way that we're talking about locking down the NATO alliance. You also forestall. The possibility of aid of a of oven openly. Openly wishes to reconstitute the great russian

empire and wishes to confront the west and beat the west in some fashion, and this is why I said that is the challenge the first half of the twenty first century, and that's why Russia is dangerous because it is declining power. It is power on the rise. It sees a very small window in that window is closer and that's why it's so dangerous, and so reckless and expansion is now is, it doesnt have that opportunity and ten fifteen twenty years, which I did not have a small window of opportunity for Russia, and that means that, despite a passing threat it's not necessary at that point. It's not necessarily declining power anymore. Is it maybe no I mean if Europe I had two how're, you mean that it doesn't have enough resources and it's not rich enough and all that. Well, you don't have to be the rich country in the world to be the great. It was true that both Dino Japan in Germany, in the first half of the twenty, century rose to being grey enormous industrial powers and thus have the equipment to wage

terrible war, but we don't know that Russia couldn't be in that it now In addition, I mean it badly run into it's a club, talker c, and they only have one major natural resource, but you know you have a bluff far empire, that controls alone your stuff, strange and oil become. So who knows you know we don't but they're always gonna be on the decline. China was immensely poor forty years ago and now its rich, you know things can happen. And you still want to walk down? If you, if you build the fort now, you don't there's a fort, and if you tear the fort down on the on the on the idea that you don't need the four while the aggressor outside is making it very clear that you need the fort, then you're gonna have him just sit there, waiting to eat the fort down here, comes in here's. What really, honestly?

here. I mean why no word it wouldn't were nowhere near out of the woods on this. Is that all reasons it where it with that that were elaborating on about. Why this was so insanely reckless and dangerous, ongoing trump grasps any of that his walk back to the extent that was what back is purely o. This didn't play well one little, so he could not on Montenegro the walk back on it. Oh no. I heard my balloon and prudent, so hills will step right back in it. It's a little complicated. To be fair. I mean you have to know at least a little bit about it. National relations and power dynamics, as president should have a twenty minute conversation that one hopes that there are people who are list into this eleven thought much about it. Who might- and it's only been about twenty five minutes. We might think that they know a little more than they did

Before and thus have at least a richer understanding will their accounts it that everyone around him was was really trying to prep him to do something different and the press conference yeah yeah denied that, apart from when I read there, was like thirty minutes, pencilled infer prep with Bolton and then not knowing when there was a briefing book and of course even he reads- airline book droughts. So I mean that those that those are his. Those are. You know here This peculiarity we haven't even got not the walk back of the press conference, which was the wood, wouldn't run there was a I meant to say wouldn't, but he said, would right. There was a tabloid. That's that had the headline lost in the Woods stubby oil dear, it certainly? Is it so oh bomb alike to it in a minute, so much more vulgar and and grotesque, but in some ways ye one of the big problems with a bomb is foreign policy was that he counts consistently sent the message to american friends that America won't stand by. You re an answer.

We had cast doubt on what's the value of banned wagging with the? U S lead bloc in the world record as they were. He ino whether you worth Japan in the Far EAST. Or whether you are Israel in Jordan. Whether you are Ukraine, you who could be abandoned because Bobby he had his whole other view of who should we should align ourselves with this? Is that on an wherever drive? You know that again, another point to bring our Montenegro is a dimension. We told for years Montenegro what to do you wanna, be a! U need to set up this kind of an anti corruption agency. You need to have free speech and you need to like not be like yours go yugoslav Tita, style like government, anymore and unity.

In any need to do various things in the Balkans. You need to be their responsible player and other countries as well. We kept telling him to do this kind of stuff, because the result was ended in the end. We would formally allow them to bandwagon with us and protect them What's the? Why wouldn't wine, if I were in Central Asia or one of the non NATO countries that remain in in east, central and Eastern Europe like Belarus, or something? Why wouldn't even entertain band beginning with the? U S when president is going well, you wouldn't you wouldn't now the one thing we should say after all, this is Trump aggressive, gets to resume grassed against Angela Merkel. You know he yelled at the head of the Secretary General, the Europeans, that the behaviour of the leadership class of your of of of Western Europe and of NATO

for the last fifteen years. That should lead to a little bit of. I told you so schadenfreude, because this whole notion that they have the day can go on making pot. You know with there. You know slightly anti democratic. You know the latest mindset where they They go against the wishes of their own people on a lot of things. They know they they go against. The the the best interests of the NATO alliance in some ways in It produces Angela Merkel case, and you know in the in the refugee crisis and all that and then I think that they then stand there shocked when there's a reckoning. I think Trump is wrong and It's all very bad, but he is the wreck

lot of this is the reckoning for their own behaviour. Yes, it and the European Cultural Class. I think back to this, terrible movie. The lotta people love for reasons I dont understand called love. Actually, there's that there's a bit in the movie, which is our three three different love stories, but there's a whole thing in thereabout about Hugh Grant, is essentially Tony Blair he's the british Prime Minister and Billy Bob Thornton is essentially George W Bush and George W Bush is bullying Tony Blair, Billy, Lanthorns or bullying, Tony Hugh Grant, and at the end of the movie, Hugh Grand get delivers. A speech which is like one of these wish fulfilment. Pop culture speeches where he says you know we're gonna, be. Friends worryingly, the kind of friends who tell you when you're doing wrong, tell you when you're tell you when you go to born tell you that you know you can't just take us for grand

in all of this, and everybody applauds and everybody every liberal in the world. Loves the speech and the scene and loves every part of it. Only that how it works in the real world in the real world. What happens is that Donald Trump comes to London crashes Teresa. May it is not that Tony Blair gets to gets to give George W Bush a lesson in how he's MR supercilious, it's that you're you're, own superciliousness and I would say. A misunderstanding in some cases of where stands in the power dynamic in the world and thinking it is more powerful than it is in thinking that is more important than it is, has led, et to offend people like Donald Trump, who maybe should overlook it because of the necessities of history, but don't and and then they have the nerve to be surprised that people in

America and elsewhere. Go that's pretty good too. Some giving it Teresa may or someone's and particularly to some may by the way, who still you know, who has barely been elected to anything in her entire. But you know, her entire premiership is accidental. Now she didn't really do anything to deserve what she's what she's getting. But there is this since that date, now. I understand where they all complicated problem for us from our perspective, is that the research in Europe that is proud and patriotic and spends two percent on military and expand. Tourism is also populist and right, leaning upon That's right, leaning, Europe is not an american interests; it never has been in the long term is not an American. This is again very complex. This is part of the problem is its very complicated because on the one hand it's not the Americas interests. On the other hand, everybody has reason to be said about the particular in Hungary, its

a frightening and hardly agree that Hungary has but environment with eighty PS surging, I'm in France was old and Poland is a little laws about right, but these countries, this doesn't hut according to. The most easily understandable, left right, populist, anti populist pro Russia Anti Russia for example, everyone says they're all anti semitic and a lot of mother also very pro Israel. It's weird like the lot of this Putin and Bush put an ambush potent entrapment agreed. On is real security. At the at the Helsinki summit, I mean there are Weird Cross pressures here that are hard to follow and like pop Poland's government is like in some sense- and he says Megan and its conservative, nationalist and populist, and yet it's you know, reluctantly pro NATO in, and it will disagree

It will also stand up for Israel in various international Adela, being anti semitic and pro Israel is necessarily a contradiction. Well, a cannon Hillel by the way that was what turtle was ethnic on was the idea that anti Semites would think that it was a good thing to get the Jews altogether and leave them alone in their own country. That was part of the calculation there's there's a jewish state idea, but but Poland, Obligated Coz its pro NATO, but it is, it is systematically the ruling parties is trying to destroy the independence of its judiciary. I mean these are not their good guys in that. But it's it's it's complicated there's there's a strain of the all right and and of the weather, the strain yet an end end of and of its equivalent abroad. That sort of view whose Israel, as a kind of f no state model that that of that that they admire trot invoked. The mule border barriers in Israel is to justify

wall, one on the baby in turn said he likes the wall idea. Remember right will be. We will say he likes everything as he should like. If there's anybody who should be obsequious and serve out to try frightened. I mean the silly thing about calling the Israeli. While the model was that everybody forgot, the twenty fourteen war when which was over tunnels. Of course, and ended. Go anywhere so give aren't gonna forget, Mexicans Zagreb, Mexicans already well according to them their Gaza anyway. Before we go on. I would like to tell you guys something very important, because we are all people who have to borrow money sometimes and for decades, crate cards have been telling us by now or pay for it later with interest, and despite your The intentions, you know that interests can get out of control fast with lemon club can consolidate your dad or pair of credit cards with one fixed monthly payments. Since two thousand seven lending club,

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a tempest, the teapot, but even if it is a teapot, it's a very bad teapot. Was this the news that somehow it came up between Trump and Putin that Putin wishes to question. Or have the United States government in some manner force. The questioning in various criminal and silver things in Russia of two people, bill browser the former head of Hermitage capital who is, was a bet basically a mark into lists, capitalist who went into Russia early after the fall of the wall when the collapse of the Soviet Union and bought up a lotta energy stocks. In a lot of this, in a lot of that and then famously the son of the ran a son, the rain ran son of the head of the American Communist Party. Earl browser who ran the party in the third

for his and ran for President nineteen. Thirty six as the whereas the Canada is a right of the Communist Party so bad Her goes and basically as one of those capitalists who tries to take advantage. Of the revenue newly capitalist young, Russia, friends, Yeltsin does various things and then as the clap talk receive grows, gets crosswise of different forces. There Putin takes over by the mid two thousands Putin and prudence, friends decide, they want to target him. He hired and sir lawyers and one of them is this. Guy named magnetically magnates he is arrested and basically is driven to his death in russian prison router at this point because her to death right what we do

That is an allegation? That's mopping Vassili prove that he was, but he was in any case. His is condition worsen significantly and he had he died. He had a medical condition and deprived of name is deprived of medical assistance right, so he died at which my browser realised that he was either that base Billy. He everybody who work from everybody knew was now at risk, will undoubtedly financially and possibly in terms of their lives and he became an activists and help push the creation of this act. The magnets reacted sanctions. Russians who were involved in magnets he's death he has now been he's, basically enemy number one for Putin. Who is suing him doing this doing that doing the other thing he lives in London. Having for reasons that do not seem all that attractive, Browed are having announced his american citizenship. He is now british citizen, so potent asked for trumps help with him

in getting him somehow to testify or something that's outrageous enough. What is in peace But in my view, if anything serious were to happen- and I mean literally unimpeachable and removed from office unimpeachable- is that Putin ask the same of Michael Nightfall, Michael Macfarlane. Is a professor at Stanford who was the head of? Are we a policy on the National Security Council under Obama and then became the american about? There are two Russia from twenty eleven to twenty fourteen, and whatever you think, of the fight any misuse Democrat, but he's incredibly literate on Russia. Incredibly smiled a good patron a good without he delighted that he was a Democrat, but you can be a nobody nobody's, in other words, could resolve it. Yeah he's at the Hoover and sees a scholar of the Hoover institution which is not, which is which is basically conserve institution on the stand for campus, so he is, he is

eligible, let's just say to both the right and and and the left even if you weren't that wouldn't matter because he was our powers of right, he was Bassett her to Russia. He therefore as diplomatic immunity. This is The existence of the notion that ambassadors need to be held apart from Lee the challenge in the countries in which they serve. Why Long predates the existence of the United States are barometer times right you're being that if you're gonna bring a letter from if you're, but if you're writing five hundred bring the letter to the roman emperor from the Gauls either. An emperor, doesn't have the right to kill you because them I would you ever more rights. On one hand and the latter. Like your view, you know you need to allow people free passage diploma. Community and

We now aren't sure whether Trump sad I'll look into this, or we know that asked question Sarah Sanders is press secretary said we think that looking into it or something like that, it is the weird thing to say. After all of this, this maybe the worse things that the Trump ministration has ever done. I mean tat Separations are horrible misled, but this goes too the literal existence of civil society and civilization that up Some representing the country in the other country, including by the way like this goes to things like murder. I mean honestly, you know if you cannot he is a representative, the country and attack the idea that you would surrender or force

as someone who was an ambassador to the country to be subject to the civil. Procedures of of of the kind in which he was an ambassador, is the most distant. Of all the disruptions. This is the most disruptive with no defence. What laughter an ignorant, botanist conservative Look. I don't understand why this is bad. You don't even have to imposed. For example, you now Nicky Hayley and ran over these situations. In order for you to to grasp why this is political and unproductive, there's nothing that could be productive under this arrangement. What russian there's the russian perspective? Is that not fall in twenty twelve, as America's ambassador was, oddly supportive, perhaps covertly of efforts to undermine Vladimir Putin's authority and in the country a sore. A sort of ours is an affront to his authority

and that's something that Americans do. Americans have interests in other countries and others big outcry about Rick Grenelle, supporting certain elements within Europe. He did so rather overtly that's.

Break and protocol. But the supporting of other elements that are friendly to administration is is not unheard of this sort of what they do. The Russians have this bizarre idea that Americans have been interfering in their elections for decades and but what they define as interference is very paranoid. One of their grievances goes back to the nineties when Bill Clinton, through this, this effort to in bold in and to solidify russian civil society in the post soviet world, in which the government had ceased to become the all consuming civil society mediating institution. They needed these other institutions, so we secured a ten million dollar M F loan. For, though, for the else and government, the Putin Kremlin regard that as a great affront and an assault on their dignity and sovereignty, as it was never to create political coalitions that they oppose

today is very similar. With this MC fall thing. We have lived work themselves up into this idea that America has been supporting elements that are against Putin and now, as we absolutely arbour over adversarial, but in twenty twelve. That was not the case in certain and then I ve navies. It's become this. This myth that has animated the Putin Sphere to appoint now that it that it has become paranoia. Entirely illegitimate, but that is their perspective. Ok in twenty eleven early, twenty twelve when MC fall had just come to Moscow, presented his credentials and become the ambassador, a group of opposition, Poland. The figures in Russia came. To the embassy door, at rang on the door bell and ass to be let in and have a meeting with Mc Fall and would fall and they were led in. They asked let the men they had a meeting. This is the source,

of this may be the source of Putin and Trump fall toll. Me. One sunday me in a bunch of people at a conference that you know the thing you have to understand that Putin is that he hated Hillary Clinton. Hated Hillary Clinton personally, and it could never entirely understand why what what what she wasn't particularly harsh on remember. She left her all those she left the state Department Thirteen like this wasn't she wasn't there to deal with the take over of Crimea, for example, and he thought there were some indications that basic. He thought that they had joined up Hilary and MC fall together. Because in his world, nothing like this would ever happen unless it work done by the leadership they had jined up this appearance at the embassy by the and

had done it to embarrass him and to give heart- and you know, strength to the to the opposition and that he now basically from that moment onward decided he wanted to destroy her as much as he possibly could and that, I think, explains the end. The continued antipathy towards might fall. Who, of course, not an ambassador either. It was an ambassador during the Crimea in crisis either you know I I as evidence of what you say, John, that this is the worst thing. Yet you will not fall Anyone Depew even the people who will defend aspects of what happened in Helsinki. Who all defenders of ad flattery, Color to the the Montenegro I don't think anyone will will defend

on the substance, the prospect of of helping Putin talk to talk to me, fall. But this is where, but this is where trumps ornery this could really be destructive, because he could decide that that's the lowest cost thing. Can possibly do right now, he's got a yell at Putin and scream Putin and data, because everything went bad need, says I'll. Tell him to stop in may I'll put on a new sanctions is to prove that he means it now that, but look it put wants to talk to Michael, but for what the hell Does he care who the hell is mighty? Some liberal out there who worked for him for crooked Lorraine. Maybe he should be locked up the way she should be locked up and you can see how his brain would work to say that this was kind of I am acceptable request, and these they don't know like like too thousand years of history, say you don't say fact you're an american ambassador,

the whims of a foreign government and then he'll solely wasn't my ambassador right Eminem just say you could fall tweeted yesterday, the I think very powerful thing or late last night, when trumps as Russia is no longer targeting America, which he said yesterday. Remember in, though, that this was the with this the. It? He did. I listen to it five times the answer. The question was ambiguous I know everybody in the room thought he was saying we somebody said: is he still targeting America knowing said? Because I think he said no anyway, some full rights when trumps as Russia is no longer targeting America, that's not how this American feels Putin is most Certainly targeting and intimidating me I'm an american and that something

trump should think about and that something that our friends in the anti anti anti anti trump right should be thinking about, because, even though outer one I mean the mic fall is so unthinkable to me is so unthinkable that are removed, I want to go there and yet we have to, but even broader you know this is. This is a party of Ronald Reagan browser. Is this activist? more or less, as is out there to shed light on the corruption of one of the most corrupt. Nurse regime on earth and basically ended. You know he sort of like ended his career as a banker in a somewhat motto: maniacal way to sort of expose and vindicate this lawyer, who need grown attached to You know, as is his friend, Sergei MAD Nevsky, and now the magnets key act is being enacted in numerous

parliaments and governments around around the west, so obviously taking a by and a thing, to say if your Sarah Huckabee Sanders you're you you're sort of the Voice of American honour million billions of people look to you and he say or work thinking about it. Are you serious you set your that you say hell, no it will not be able to say held now, but certainly indicates she could say you know. The United States does not, in the United States, respect the role of its ambassadors and protects its ambassadors and protects people again, This is high and I don't like that. It's just a trump is involved in his Russia Policy contrary to what everybody else simply reporting. The troubled ministration has invoked. The magnets key act didn't need Congress to do that. Its invoked Magnus gets thanks a lot of people very close. The Putin up to and including people like rats Europe was the strong

and in Chechnya, Chechnya and very close to Vladimir Putin. If it's bizarre the extent to which, if Donald Trump was aware of the fact that he has used this act in order to put pressure on Russia. Ague would be aware of it. Who prefer up bill? Browser was in what the magnesia ACT is in the background on it, and it wouldn't have occurred to this administration were at spokespeople to even contemplate the legitimacy of this kind of a request, but that the two political arm of this up to the president and the community wing and the State Department and the CIA when everybody else involved in the national security and of things often unlike completely one hundred percent distinct entities. This is one of those occasions, but that you this using this, brings back to my very first common: did it today's Punkahs, which is that I agree with you, it's as if Europe is not at all involved in his administrations. Russia policy, yet

things that he does and says about Russia and to Putin and about all the Associated issues end up having huge, concrete ramifications of this exactly why I said you cannot simply separate. Be the policy front. The appeal in the policy results from the conduct and the results of his conduct. Absolutely, while one last thing to point out Adam Shift, the household California has now- The main motion and has intelligence committee, which will not pass with the minority motion to subpoena the american interpreter during the summit. The only witness trumps meeting with Putin this extraordinary remedy but trumps actions necessitated Republicans voted down in case. I just. I would want to end on this, because all we do is only renewing its bashing.

Mostly band bashing Trump, and all that is that this idea that House Democrats are now this is a clear violation, most elementary violation of the separation of powers, the interpreter in room in a private conversation between Trump and Putin. What goes on between Trump and Putin, that is, the executive branch, has prerogative, Trumpkin talked about it or not. The idea that the house can subpoena someone who simply was there listening and translating to demand that that person inform the house of what Trump said to prudent and what Putin said to Trump. Is it? Is it in an indication of how the norm shattering exists on all sides right now, so this is something no no other so whatever no no minority or majority in the house would ever have proposed at any

your time they were. The constitution makes it clear that the president is you now has has power in foreign policy? Does not? The president does not work for the car risk and the people who work for the President do not work for the Congress, and here we are, and this stuff is only going to get worse and worse and worse, its trump trump as a norm violator, but they are norm violators also- and you know that that the idea that nobody, Nobody in this realm is standing up for the car is actually working to further thee. We have respect for the constitution is very disheartening. To me.

And with that cheerful known, I remind you to gonna commentary magazine dotcom, Slash, live podcast. If you wish to attend our life podcast on July thirtieth at the comedy seller at six p M in Greenwich, village tickets are going fast, so you better go. There commentary dot com commentary magazine, Dotcom, slash, live podcast and for a green while nor Roslin and sort of Mari. This John put words, keep the camel burning