welcome, the commentary magazine podcast today is Monday July. Twenty fourth, two thousand seventeen. I am job towards the editor of Commentary magazine the seventy two year old monthly, of intellectual probity. Political analysis and cultural commentary from a conservative perspective join us. A commentary magazine dot com, where we give you a few free reads and then asked you to subscribe. One thousand nine hundred and ninety five gets you a digital subscription, two thousand nine hundred and ninety five to an all access subscription, including a beautiful

If we make is in your mailbox eleven times a year with me is always a green, while their senior editor, high, Abe Hygiene and or Rossman are associated or high Noah, I John, ok, oh, not actual, is weak in involving the true change over the Trump White House, with the departure of short space of the press secretary of the arrival of Anthony's would. She is the new white communications direct, your former New York City, hedge fund, Majordomo, pretty cool customer smooth, funny, comfortable and further microphone, his initial press conference and then Sunday doing a bunch of Sunday shows and contradicting starting to get into the problem of any Trump communications effort, which is that you have to defend multiple contradictions at the same time and somehow harmonise them.

The other, and it's not not so easy. All of this, of course, relates to the Russia probe in the question of the Washington's obsession, with the question of whether or not the Trump campaign colluded with Russia and then obstructed it. And we are so deep in the weeds on this that we were sitting trying to prepare the podcast here, and we decided that we would try to figure out just exactly what probation, where it stands and we sat down and took some notes- and I thought maybe what we would do here- is tunnel

run through this. For you, we broken down the Russia issue, both as a political and a legal matter into three categories. The probe itself, the case for collusion and the case for obstruction, and so I thought we might do is lay out the general proposition and then go into the three categories. General proposition. Is this Donald Trump hates the Russia probe hates it? There are only two reasons that he hates this probe. One is that he believes it is correct. That the entire thing is wildly unjust from the get go? It's an effort to ruin him politically. It is unfair, it is a it. Is the swamp trying to swamp him

And he is justified in any and every action he him take to kill the probe because its cause, it's it's a witch hunt or- and this is the other case- he like a lot of you actually thinks that there's fire inside the smoke around the probe and is terrified and his improvising wildly against in that fight, it is unlikely that that fire involves him personally, but it could involve people around him, including his family, and so Oh, he is just tap

dancing. We now as fast as we can to try to get through it and around it and create as much distraction diversion misdirection and even thinking thee. What would be almost the unthinkable after Watergate witches firing, special pursue prosecutor may be firing. His attorney general firing the Justice Department and just like gutting it out with the promise it with the presumption that Republicans in the house and send it would not the guts to sort of go after so we thought, as I said, we would separate these strands out and try to make sense of what it is that is facing trump. So a green walled

please, if you would lay out the case that we have made or thee what what the probe itself is and what is alleged to be going on with the probe. Okay, so the probe itself anguish. Because a deal agenda, Mises him involves his family, which he is said is assured red line for him. If you take him at his word, there's no collusion, nothing happened and if the Russians were up offering up dirt on Hilary, anyone would have taken the meeting and sought the advantage being offered. So for him, it's just the sort of hard nosed political business. As usual, he's man attorney General Jeff sessions, for

using himself instead of standing atop the investigation protecting him, he was and is mad at now fired FBI director. James call me for leading the document in which it was reveal. The trumpet asked him to go easy on the central figure of the then central figure. The proper Michael Flynn he's mad at deputy attorney general Run, Rosen's rod, Rosen's name Rosen's time free for using the economy led to a point Robert Mahler Special Council on the Russia problem and crises and headed at Molly for hiring Hilary donors of of of whom trumpet himself is one, of course, and white collar crime glory suggesting they will attempt to establish some kind of connection between the trouble organization and Russia and collusion okay, so that is the that is the probe, the pro is a thing.

That is either legitimate or illegitimate. Trump is conducting himself as other Probus, illegitimate and Noah. What is the where the holes in this in this narrative that aid just serve through throughout? In other words, why is there? Is this exculpatory, more southern, yet or not yeah right? Well, I struggle with this frankly, because I don't think there's very much fear that that exculpate, the White House. It's all starting to look kind of bad. To me, I would say dad by bad. You mean that it looks like there was, rather than this being a kind of sad of mister Dixon, improvisations and bundles. Let's say that had bad odor,

that. Unfortunately, the number of the number of things here is suggesting that the that the smoke is base a fire. They all have the same. Bad odor is the poor and hence not as though we're dock work, hunting for the same smell and its all moving towards a peace, which I think supports the big question, I will go back to collusion, which is my segment and I think, there's a lot less. There, too port that? But this is a very compelling case that the president believes that he should be shielded more from this investigation by his subordinates? They have failed him. In that sense, he is very mad and aggressive about it and move to rectify what he believes it is enough together against his dignity, and I find it hard to believe that he believes that the special prosecutor will result in his exoneration

or, at the very least, the acceleration of the people around him. Ok well end up to and including members of his family, who, I think you would have very aggressive, defend. Ok, now too, Fair special prosecutors never exonerate anybody, they close out without issuing charges or the issue final report, if they dont let little lovely lovely charges that off

continues to raise questions. People are often left by saying things like when it. Where do I get my reputation back? It's bad. Have a special prosecutor named in your case, except usually special prosecutions, take a very long time to develop and they they go down multiple roads and things like that in theory of the present were keeping quiet and worth fighting this so actively. As some of us thought, when Mahler was named, he would have the advantage of of the story going dark, but one of the reasons is story hasn't gone dark is that he will not let it go dark and then bad stuff happens somewhere else like bad stuff, like leaks from the spot,

Council's office, which is bad. It's up. It's a it's an investigatory arm of the: U S governed the? U S, government should not. People should not be leaking stuff involving probes of the present rate body else, when they're doing it from the federal government is a bad thing, but he is involved in keeping stoking the fire or stoking the flint, that he didn't want To start a reason why we're talking about those now is because it became a fire storm of the weak and resulting from president trumps interview with the New York Times in which he threw a brush bag pitch at Mueller Office. Saying you know, don't investigate my finances or else team interview, he castigated Jeff sessions who is now on the outside, and the result was that somebody in this investigation or in the Department of Justice or close to it said Well, you know what guess what we are investigating your finances, we're gonna, keep investigating your finances and

led to some speculation as to how Donald Trump can execute the nuclear option. Against this thing. All of this stems from other options. Being the firing of Robert Mueller In theory, the only way that he fires, Robert Wheeler, is that he directs sessions or run, rose and slander. Agonized riots that he can't sessions is refuse, so he directs debutante General Rob Rosen's time to fire Mueller, thus putting Rosen the position of fires Mueller, and then he is viewed as somebody who is a potential. Structure of hired meal and the first, but right or Rosen Stein quits, because he will not accept the job which had them will fall to deputy associate attorney general. Whatever her name is Rachel, whatever tunnels Rachel brand. Who will- also be in the position to be their having to execute this order or or not,

there's a third option. That is completely fanciful, but I think that in the president's head witches he compels his attorney general to resign replaces and confirms him with somebody who will execute his directives without accusing him. However, it doesn't matter who does it? That's the point like in theory by the way organizational he doesn't have to have. He can fire Mueller. He is the head of the executive Branch research office. Is that right as way other than the sea are the congressional region? service has a piece on how you get rid of us prohibited still very weird, because first on the eve of an independent council, doesn't really exist anymore. Gunnar was a statute that mainly in the Berlin Council, entirely independent of offer of all political. You know, sir, But you know if rod, Rosen style works for Trump, and he can he fires Bueller effectively

Trump is firing Mueller like that's. That's why it's weird that you couldn't. I thought that I'm saying you're wrong and it's a it's a very convoluted thing that he, he can fire Rosen Stein. He can't fire Mueller like he can't fire secretary He doesn't like a secretary of the White House. He can't fire the Secretary issues too many steps below him. I mean I'm not saying that special councils are like your secretary, but it is also what we talk about. The political, education here! This is another thing where the probe is tat, is to end and trams. Feeding of it is turning his administration into this sort of like success, of suicide missions. I mean every area you know now if you, if you join demonstration of you, if you defend him or if you fail to do,

Due to to his satisfaction, you know: there's a year it just yours, now, spending a period of time before your your heads on the chopping. Well, if you defend them, me went up sounding like Anthea Scar, Muky did on Friday, which is you don't just say. While I support the president on cited about this in a straight line, produce. Do I love him? I love him. Anthony scrambled. You was attacking Trump last year, who came in relatively late in May or June to support Trump, whose supported JEB, Bush and Scott Walker before Trump. Who oh you have this notion that he just doors trump in every possible way. Maybe he in love with him between June? Sixteen and now when I buy it's perfectly plausible, but you know there is a way in which, remembering by saying I love Barack Obama, like I love them, is that you knows these, the any did it's something. No one else is every. I love him and I want to make out with them, and have as babies. You, that's not

normally scary and scare. Much too is linked to this whole Russia thing, because he is reflective of the presidency. Donald Trump wants to project into the world and its one that defend not only his tweets but also says that he's not sure whether or not he's going to sign this veto proof majority bill. Apparently that's going to be passed. Imposing new sanctions on Moscow contradicting Sarah Huckabee Sanders He's a guy held out. Let us look out because your we're too, in the wheat, so there is a bill from Congress pass by thousand that's about we passed by the Senate. I write blankly right So is an extension of the sanctions that were imposed in two thousand and thirteen as a result of the magnet ski act name so named for a russian lawyer and anti corruption. Where who was basically assassinated, obviously will almost certainly by Putin in and

and sir. How could we sanders? Who is the replacement this press secretary by for restaurants by sir, but now is firmly play said on Friday? The president would sign such a bill and on Sunday scrambled she said it wasn't clear that he would sign such a bill, which he probably will be compelled to do by virtue of the fact that it will be passed with the approved majorities and if he vetoed it, it would be overridden which is an embarrassment. Secondly, Anthony Scary Movie says that he is not sure the president believes that Russia would be responsible for these, intervention and meddling in twenty. Sixteen. He cited the president himself as an expert

ever meddling and there's actually some interesting reporting about where this, where this claim comes from the trumpet said that you know if the Russians were behind it than we wouldn't even know, exercise visitor so good at it right which, allegedly, according to reporting, came directly from Vladimir Putin. Who said precisely that now this contradicts everybody who is an appointed intelligence, official news, administration, The age ass director, if I'd or enter them, not just them there too. There are two aspects of this brought right, so Yea director. So we have. We have this gucci for two point now and we have Wikileaks and while Wikileaks good

the sort of what I was not just thought by us, but by almost every intelligence agency in the world, as I do that is being directed by by the former KGB and whatever the KGB. His colleague him every member has its efforts, be okay, so everybody thinks this is not an opinion of the United States are like an open secret and they are the ones who basically got Hilary. Emails. I think right. Don't we think that it was a general provision for to point out, as an intermediary believes to be an arm of russian Intelligent sent out was bad through. What will you do with your ex right? Ok, so another we know that Russia Tnc, like there's no quest the rush at the DMZ, so that Putin says the trouble look if we believe we have you know, because we would not never now, because we are so skilled at this. You know like

The image is repeating. What Donald Trump wants? The truth to be is indicative of the fact that he is supposed to be representative of Donald Trump sooner where you go and not a supernova irregular it is it ok the other way around. Yet we are here are he's the ego defending the it against the superego, which I have you got what own tweets on spice yeah. Maybe I doubts science by sir was a super ago. He was more like like a floating amoeba, Gmail women. In the consciousness seen out doing whatever it was. He thought he needed to do to survive, but Abe you're, gonna, say now. Look at the table. Investigated aims very commissioner. Nobody has a mouse in the kitchen is very distracted by the mouse.

You never had a lot of my russian rail email, the deed tweed able at every while the family advice on how you view the mouse, because this is very very strongly. Unless I'm gonna go. Ok, sorry, don't we don't do it? I m sorry. I apologise for that. That's not gonna go help. Ok, ok, Tweet me, and I will I will? I will try to be, and I will tell I believe, a better. This must wonder. I thought it was great twitter, so you don't send in pictures of mice, and staffing is very gross that I don't really get. Hey. So now we haven't even discuss the suggests that all issue with Jeff sessions right. So this starts on Wednesday, with this New York Times. Interview that started as a meeting agreed that then turned to try just getting very expensive and then putting the whole thing. You know on the record, including his granddaughter coming in and speaking in chains swinging a few words. Chinese. Everybody very convenient mom, yes, hello, grandpa.

Our about you, you how's gratifying about my views on the russian side dsl. But, yes, One of the great moments in all of transcript history is hello, grandpa, Arabella Cushion or colon hello. Grandpa anything about it? She six years old anyway, I wanted to say, was fantastic. Okay, so from now on Ok so session, so he says in this interview that he's at its sessions, that if he'd know When the sessions was going to accuse himself, he would have appointed somebody else now. This by the way requires time travel point sessions like him to me, after the election the, issue of whether or not anyone having conversations with Kisyak starts coming up about a month after the election? and sessions not revealing to the to the sea when he was in his confirmation hearing that he'd had a couple of meetings that were done, some form or other happen,

in January, so how sessions would have known upon accepting the job that he was gonna procure himself later in any possible probe. This is not a rash No criticism of sessions, I'm no fan of sessions, but I don't get a particularly now that he is sought to increase the power of the federal government to do asset forfeiture, which is one of the great evils of our time another. You know I know he is not a worthy person to be an attorney general. Nonetheless, knowing that he was gonna, have to accuse himself or something it wasn't. An issue at the time is Naturally, we owe guy using when you knew about this, but we're not sure how many people within the Trump administration knew it, because we had a leak this weekend. Very cool

general budget. We should all be concerned at the time of the meetings that he had to reduce himself on took place after Trump Nature Maternity general, or we only found out about this meeting which, until this meal one I haven and go to the assembly. So apparently, this is according to leaks, provided from the intelligence community transcripts of intercepts that wish, which, with which we should not be Familiar with are aware of these leaks are a problem. That being said, the information is out and has to do with the fact that apparently just sessions as it campaign surrogate, took in undisclosed meeting with russian officials during the campaign. Disgust issues discussed Paul, And it never came up, even though they are just sessions assured his Senate colleagues, that he was being as forthright possible. We need to remember that when James combing testified before the Senate Intelligence Committee after his league and everything like outweighs already out, and he was asked about sessions. He said something like what

We knew that sessions was gonna, have to accuse himself and then they said well, how did you know- and he said I can tell you- and I guess we- he knew because he had seen these intelligence intercepts. That said that we obviously follow and pay attention to it. Russian officials, and so we were following closely Achan said and swam into his cat now this by the way is another example of unmask king let's say that this leak means that the federal government, some of the federal government, has seen fit to expose the fact that a an american citizen, but also a. Then an elected official of the state of Alabama had somehow got then to a meeting with somebody and that's bad as knowest, Adam. We can't pretend that it's not it's a terrible thing, but it does. But it is something that he didn't mentions.

Oh so sessions had these meetings. Trump attack some in the New York Times, everyone says basically, I expected somebody implicit thing is I expected my attorney general to be there to defend me against. Ok, now trumpets now, speaking the sub text of the of the job of a change. Our often in the cases of people who are attorney general, they are appointed because they are a friend or intimate of the residents and they are. They are precisely as in the case of John Mitchell, for Nixon, and I think in the case of cold, maybe for four Obama, much much less much less clearly Are there admits for fora for Reagan that they are there in part to be to watch to make sure that the Justice Department does not start turning on their own.

Returning on on the leader, but that is a very implicit thing. It's not anything that anybody is supposed to. Serve say, is an explicit job. Deterrent Elk is eternal as a statutory position that overs These are launch our federal law enforcement among many other things and presence that was to be above the law on Europe's was too late, protect him, no way would protect other people. So that was alarming, but that's what said about sessions, and then this morning, Monday morning, the July twenty fourth, he tweeted at this thing. That said. Why aren't our congressional committees and our belief Third, a g. Investigating Hilary so This, in turn connects to a couple of tweets over the weak. In which he started openly, attacking Republicans for Beef disloyal to him and saying

so many of them wouldn't have gotten elected if I hadn't pulled them across the finish line by winning, in fact, There was only one senator who was up for reelection in when he sixteen, who was likely pulled across the finish line by Trump. That is Senator blunt of Missouri Almost every other republican senator, who one reelection ran ahead of Trump in this to every other. Senator except for blood, ran ahead of Trump in every state. So simply not true, but it's like a threat is like saying I got you elected you're, not protecting me and now he saying sessions is not protecting me. Ok, this is very weird. Sessions works for him. He doesn't have to tweet. Sessions Dealey analogy, I could come up with hell. No earlier is George Steinbrenner attacking his men. Your Billy Martin, nor his centre field or day when field in the press for like not making

effort or making bad calls or something like that. But then the differences that George Steinbrenner and and Billy Morton would would then. Naturally, meat in person have not down, drag out disputes about and then slime round would firemen and ride we Hiram two years later and he couldn't and what he did with Wingfield was because- and this is where sessions gets interesting, so he couldn't fire Whitfield, meaning he couldn't either dismissal from baseball or trade him, because Wingfield had a veto, who over where he might be traded in Whitfield, wanna, stay New York, so all the only way that he could like vent or make life unpleasant for Wingfield by attacking him in the media. I shall add. Sessions is fire sessions and theirs already today. Noah. That says, who is being actively considered while we do not know how much stock put into this, but apparently

Forming New York City may already Giuliani is in the running to be the new non were accusing attorney general, their memory Giuliani wanted to be secretary of state when the term administration began, that post might be open to there's a couple stories weaken that Rex Tiller, since gonna quit before the year is out which. I believe that. Don't think it's a great thing for the Trump administration that somebody has a confirmation hearing to be attorney general now. Ok, how we haven't had confirmation hearings for the next FBI director who was nominated. Like a six, we gonna get a hearing held a hearing in a committed. Well, it's a confirmation hearing we thought both for the full. Sadly isn't it Algeria is it. But I'm just saying, like first of all assume

The Republicans can carry the day, even though they are now only have fifty one votes by the way, because of Senator Mccain so tragically being laid up with his brain cancer treatment. May it's likely that they would line up and in our vote, for both for Giuliani. But you know five or six more revelations and the hearing. What's Giuliani, get a say in the hearing you gotta say things in the hearing in order to get past, that will put him on the record and legal He is saying yes, I will not interfere with the hope, but let's have it I get in say. Yes, I will, if confirm me, I will fire Robert Buller and you know actively seek to close down the Russia probe like.

Even fifty one Republicans are gonna have trouble you know coming together for that there are a couple of republican lunatics. You know like ran Paul. I think who, like would actively one vote against really Giuliani, but probably wouldn't anyway, not a great time for them to have a car. Patient hearing a justice when the progress heating up his arm, saying so pretty well established that the president has a real, but with this pro and now when I go to the centre question ok, but before we go to the central question between to discuss the eternal verities and central questions not only of our time but of all time with the great courses plus. Because with so many world historical things happening around us every day, things that appear to be new things that appear to be Entirely unprecedented, it's important to know now,

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retirement every time this comes up. He doesn't announces. Retirement people tend not to retire from the Supreme Court to their dragged out feed first, but we can peering that this might happen. He hasn't hardest clerks for some years, Le Blah Blah sewed Supreme Court. You know everything that conserves giving with one thing concerns agree on in relation to tramp is that the appointment of the Al Gore Such was and unambiguously good thing, and if you could get another, so require employment, or who that would be amazing, because then you could really make sure of the court doesn't go into the hands of people at you. You dont, like aid that the course the history, the Supreme Court, does it reflect on someone. Sir controversy we'll get. It does to the extent that the professor talks a lot about how sort of particular justices can really

set it set a direction for the court and and therefore for the country- and you know to to take an obvious example like the Warren Court and you know which- which obviously it was a liberal court, that that expanded civil rights and but but also expanded the reach of the federal government and and hat and be long term ramifications of of what that means. So this is one of the thousands, of course, is that you can take in the great courses plus which you can stream from your smartphone tab laptop tb. Or download them to watch offline great for travelling. So we want you to check out the great courses us today, you will love it they're, offering our listeners a full month of free video lectures. When you sign up using our special url, the great courses,

stay calm. That's all one word. The great courses plus dotcom, slash commentary start your free month now sign up adequate courses, blessed outcomes, lashed commentary, that's the great courses plus dotcom, Slash commentary, and we think that we horses plus fork sponsoring the com, Terry Podcast Mouth Noah, having been through all of the twist in terms of the problem and the problems of the probe trumps problems of the problem. The political nightmares had been created by the probe. The problem is, of course,

an examination of ever to examine whether or not there was open collusion between the Trump campaign or officials of the term campaign and Russia, and what is the case that we now know what in open from what we now know? What what details are that made this special prosecutor necessary or why IRAN doesn't steamed found it necessary to appoint one ok, well, the suspicion that there was some sort of effort to collude between the term campaign and Russia began in the campaign when you had a variety of leaks, as we talked about earlier from Wikileaks, that benefited the Trump campaign and in a conspicuous man. So where is the fact that trump himself? Kept saying nice things about Putin when he didn't need to, and it was actually seem to be harmful to him and

who said, by the way, Russia, if you're, looking until recently observers and emails, fine, fine, thirty thousand Indiana wasn't ready. Yet he had very little knowledge of any other countries, geopolitical interests, with the exception of Russia, with which he had a very detailed and understanding of what their national interests were, both globally and in the near abroad, and he was sympathetic to them and xenophobia annually. In December now fired national Security adviser MIKE Flynn took five phone calls in a single day from russian ambassador. Sergei obviously get those calls we were told by then Press Secretary Sean's by Sir were a variety of ways to express how happy they were to be in each other's company. They talked about how they wanted to have happy holiday, greetings, etc. That was a lie. Those the transcripts of one of those calls was again through one masking. The odious practice of masking was leaked to the reporters and which it was revealed that my plan was having conversations with his counterpart

about administration stuff, particularly about removing sanctions, and that was revealed only after individuals like MIKE Flynn had gone on television The said repeatedly that no one in the campaign had any contact with russian officials now sitting here nine months later, that looks quaint, because we now know of at least five individuals who, in the end, the Trump campaign who were in the campaign at the time of the campaign who met with russian officials. Until now the russian officials, but with lawyers who were effectively russian officials like this lawyer at tea in the June, sixteen meaning that had the meaning, with Donald Trump Junior. And Jerry Kirshner and And pay manager Paul man afford, and you know this, though cleaning. Lady from the drum tower and guy, from down the hall and my aunt many and it was like the state room seamen at the opera. There were so many people at this meeting once once the meeting in public so anyway that Michael and call wouldn't have been especially noteworthy.

With the exception of the fact that there was a lie around it. Why lie in his confirmation hearings in January just sessions said that he had no meetings with the Slovak and he wouldn't have their refusal of a believe. This, So he said that he didn't say: they're ready made. It is every eye is if and when it came. When it came out that there had been meetings with his lack that he had not disclose to the Senate Judiciary Committee, then he announced himself in any aspect of the Russia probe, meaning that his deputy rod, Rosen slime would be the person at the Justice Department, with Authority Ultimate authority or ultimate managerial authority over any

matter involving Russia, so sessions and as we were discussing earlier sessions, had multiple meetings with russian officials, including former russian ambassador, Costly ACT, MIKE Flynn light. As we said, pants defended him on TV might Flynn is fired, and then he apparently says to James call me that trumps proverb says that he should go easy on foot because he's a good guy and then he fires call me- and he tells russian officials Kisyak, and the Foreign Minister, Sergei Lever of whose about as close to Vladimir Putin, could possibly get he's been in this administration. Since Vladimir Putin served as Prime Minister and nineteen nine, so he says to them that this this discipline, this weight- has been removed from him and he is now free or to act because the Russia Probus before there was a special case.

Because the Russia probe presumably would be slowed down and hindered as a result of commies removal? so what does Russia? What are we know? What Donald Trump gets out of this, which is support from Russia his political according to the theory that there was a collusion? So what does Russia get out of it? What's Russia's deal here, Russia wants an end to the sanctions that work Post on the regime over the course of the Obama era. The magnetic act as one is very popular. We talk about it all the time because of this adoptions issue, which is reciprocity for sanctions from the russian side saddle twenty? Who I know there are several people. I know who adopted babies from from Russia and after the passage of Benghazi, active became illegal for Americans to a diet, abies but there is also sanctions are imposed on Russia after the invasion and innovation of territory in Ukraine. In twenty fourteen Annesley

of new sanctions, including the the taking back of some diplomatic property on in an american soil after the in December of twenty sixteen, after with firmly in established there Russia was involved in an election hack. So what does Russia wanting? Wants sanctions relief, but it also wants collaboration in syria- hasn't gotten sanctions relief, but it sure, as Hell he's gotten cooperation in Syria up to and including a couple of, I believe it was right before From a bilateral meeting with of Vladimir Putin meetings where other of which were just learning fewer than twenty four hours before he advised his see I to cancel and suspend any suspend any support for Anti Assad rebels. Syria, which was something that blood report very much wanted. They have this meeting. They is greased by those supply of this are the end of this programme and they both MRI

you're saying we have you no new agreement for a new sanction set ceasefire situation in Syria. I have thought you were talking about, wants what what what Russia wants and Anne and what Trump might want from Russia. But when we are to me the collusion issue is still elusive because they colluded on what exactly what? What is the project that they are suspected of having colluded on initially the collusion was about was suggested to be some type of tampering with the election that's no longer exactly where we are so I dont know what an end and the sub interesting here also, when we talked earlier about skirmishes statement that he got from tromp, trot reportedly got from Putin about how if there

This was Russia had done this you there you you never would have known about it. That is actually a type of dinner, I'll write that that that is, that is prudent, denying to Trump that he was involved with election tampering, which, which doesn't suggest collusion between the two under Well, that is the weakness of the case. Is that having kg even having extensive contacts with Russians in which there conversations about doing bad things doesn't mean the bad things were done more than anything happen like. Conversations are not criminal and we are not with Russia. So it's not treason. I mean we. Nobody is as negative about Russia. You know in the United States is commentary magazine is but war with Russia, so contacts with Russia not illicit even I've had contacts with with between foreign government Anna campaign or not illicit,

That's an enduring story, and you know in today commissioner, the sun, while the president and his one it was leading advisers in the White House Release statement explaining his role. All in all of this, in which he basically said that oh a after the election. There was interested in the White House in establishing informal. Back channels between foreign governments and the White House. That would not go through the state Department and there have been such back channels forever and you know back channels. Go read Henry Kissinger memoirs about the use of back channels. To negotiate things that don't become aren't raised to the level of ironically set not ironically, but set up a lot of these back channels for German Kirshner right. Ok, so there if they are back channels like we don't even know if they exist or if anything happens, ok so

The point is that if the Russian did not do anything that happen Cyril effect on the election. Then it's aren't you make the case to the collusion met Any collusion meant anything. The problem is that we could make It's on is unproven. Like did the DMZ leaks, which we know were the result of russian efforts. Be hacking. Did they have a role in a very close election? I mean you had the day. Had the Democratic National Committee in crisis replacement of its head someone's appointed cheap, everything's can see, everybody is, and everybody, including officials of the Hillary Clinton campaigners, sitting room waiting for the shoes to drop every day near attendant. Who was one of the leading officials like TAT, you know, get there's an email out where she says something: negative

at Hilary, so she cries and or office all day. You know me: it's like there are these things. You can't prove that a hundred thousand votes serb eighty thousand votes on three states would have changed if the Dnc hack having happened, but you can't say that it wasn't nothing in Crete sold chaos and confusion, though the russian hacking is real and terrible, but but it was the quest whether the Trump people had knowledge for knowledge or any reason to encourage dry happened except a trump openly encourage, that's the habitat is, though it wasn't collusion wherever know what that we care. He said in his speech on a rally in from twenty five thousand people that he wanted them to find. Hilary is thirty, three thousand scrubbed emails right and also just happened to come a very popular moment in this whole situation that were learning about through the Donald J. What from junior

females well, one thing that we do now which again gets us, so deepen the weeds, as others meeting between Donald Trump Junior and many in the night at the opera. With the lawyer with the magnet who said she wanted to have the meeting, could she had dirt? I'm Hilary that the FAO following week, Trump tweeted, something out about how Laurie was wheeled trouble now, and I would add, within hours of that meeting, right daddy site like bad we're. GonNA was about conference right, Hillary Clinton. What we ve learned about her which subsequently never happened What is to be accurately that all excited that they were gonna get all this dirt at this meeting and in fact, this lawyers, you know that this would then, but he never knew about the meeting. No one no one knew there was no longer has campaign manager nor his first born son, everybody to inform them about this meeting. That was occurring just down the hall all

He said in the New York Times interview that maybe he knew where maybe did I forgot. He doesn't know so so busy everything was others. So ok but Eve mayor that doesn't necessarily suggested, may have suggested a perfectly proper vague willingness to collude. It suggests lie is lying, is not collusion. Building lying upon lying upon the green line is not collusion, is is difficult. Day lie like they breed. They lie every day. They lie every three hours. They have questioned, whether but it was their comrades, that's ok! So here we go so a we discuss the probe. We discussed the case for collusion. The thing that will get him we'll get Trump is not collusion. I believe- and I think we all agree- since the weakest element of the case, proving at improving that it had a material effect on the election and that whatever conversations were had were illegal is very difficult.

The question is the probe and whether or not the behaviour of the Trump Whitehouse creates. Production of justice, the justice being J commies investigation as FBI director them following into Mueller RS special prosecutor role, as appointed by ROD Rosen staying. So what is the case that obstruction has gone on sure- and I know that some of us, but I wasted so there were, trumps? Leaning on James call me taking him privately, which was of verse very unprecedented and saying to him. I hope you can go easy on Flynn he's a good guy after which he fired. Call me

and then followed up that firing by sending some sort of vaguely threatening tweets. Two common about how he had Tate. Yet you better hope, there's better held. There are tat. There is any tapes of of trumps of trumps conversations with then. There is, of course, one can judge sessions misleading testimony before Congress lying about meetings with with with Russians flints having light pants, how about same Jared commissioners. Incomplete security clearance forms were where he left out information about their contacts with the Russians, no heat. What he claims this morning that the his S, eighty sex, the security clearance form has filed in error to early because of one of his

staffers assume that when told that one section had been completed that the whole form of who live in it was submitted? Rochester, clarify that point and then the trumps having just said overtly to two Kisyak anti russian Foreign Minister Lover of that he's gotten rid of call me was a nut case in there and that's take that takes pressure off him regarding the russian rush issue, so that Ok, can I have your guy? Could I don T often this commissioner? They because we haven't even talked about the fact that we had this letter that was released today. Were you married a second problem x which rolling it's a statement to the Senate. Hotel Joint committee is printed statement, so I'm not be able to summarize it's eleven that age long go way that you don't need. A very my take always are a here.

In no uncertain terms saying I did not collude but he's not saying nobody colluded these aside and do it and it's, it's not a statement that very friendly towards done trump. Junior Because, as well as many re doesnt mentioning so or support him in any way shape or form rapid, it's it's, Then there's this little anecdote in their which sticks in my ground. Where discusses his meeting with the head of a financial institution called National Column Bank, which is a state run russian Bank under sanctions. Venetian Conon Bank apparently had a meeting with commissioner. In December and Pusher, and the transition of savers set up by KISS Leah. Like his hair Kisyak Wanta meetings with Kirshner cushion said no, we didn't wanna means according cautionary, they want have means, were kiss your so kisses. Ex said

Well, we have a meeting with Sergey Goerck off the head of this bank. Why? Because off knows Putin's thoughts and is close to Putin and can give you a handle on Putin. And this is the back channel idea that I was mentioned earlier. So yes so, but according to the transition team, this was conducted entirely for diplomatic purposes. The bank has a different the banks, as they were, reaching out to a bunch of different places all over the world and Jared Kirshner and his family interests were all they were interested in getting touch with purely financial. Most likely. This has had to do with russian sanctions, but commissioner talks about his meeting and says this little homey anecdote about how Goerck of produced a bag of dirt from his,

home town in is grandfathers, home ran others yellows and Belarus, and its like a timid that to me this is the checkers, the dog line. This isn't my family loves. This bag of dirt and we're not going to give it up GOSH, Barnett and what's should be really frustrating to everybody here- is this meeting, but the injured, Kirshner and the head of this bank should have been a legally problematic and version the men attorney who told you couldn't do not take this meaning. Why? Because National Economy Bank has funneled third party intermediaries money. He too. The Trump organization for Trump organizations properties explicitly one in Toronto, and there may be more. This organ Take the trouble organization, International gonna bank have financial ties which are probably under investigation, because their power, hopefully released already to the committees through the financial

criteria are under title, Gladsome, wow! That's now right, if your term a trump and the and the bank, any probe was not taking place in Member of the vote, but the Treasury Department has all these records because the Treasury Department has already investigated the Trump organization. Frank Rubus connects to one of the things that makes Trump furious about the probe either because he's innocent or because he's guilty right, which is More has apparently, who is, who has almost unlimited hiring power, apparently. Has hired, apparently a whole bunch of white collar criminal attorneys, who or who are there, whose expertise is in establishing a follow the money paper trail on. Matters involving complex transactions with banks, so you

that- and you say well, they must be looking at the Trump organizations behaviour with since this is about the Russia probe. It's not just about everything with russian institutions and the russian institution. As we know in this regard that we know of is this very bank that chair cushion or have the meeting with the principle of now? It should be said that Jared Cushion or a not an official of though he is married to an official of the Trump Organization he has his own business called a cushion or companies. It is actually a larger real estate business than the Trump organization. It is the largest landholder New Jersey, for example. He owns three major buildings in New York City, for which he wildly over paid, and he says he's got his own, his own interests, which is what the bank said They wanted to meet him for right, which is to see if they but somehow.

Why would they want to have such a meeting with somebody was about to go working the witness to support him in some fashion or to get it to have a favourable relationship with you now, and we know that our commissioner- I'm not I'm- establishing nothing here, except speak of their Pierre Kosher- was going around in twenty sixteen looking for a billion dollar investment in his building its Sixty sixth avenue, a building for which the by which he paid for about a billion. Has it has a whole cockamamie idea could see the food the plans of turning it into a skyscraper. Twice as high with a mall leaded Hella a didn't. You know it looks like the avenger is building in the adventures. I don't know it's crazy so he was out there trying to get funding and alive funny outside the United States. Does he couldn't get it inside the United States, so they may have known Then he was on the hawk looking for this and they thought. Maybe we should take this meaning, because who knows what will come of it? Maybe we can scratch each others

Again it without any deal. As established by the does suggest that there that they were being probed I the Russians, to see where their weak points were, what possible seductions there could be because does not an independent bank in Russia. There is no independent banking in Russia. There is no independent financial sector in Russia. So that's the. Oh in Georgia, as a former KGB agent? Well, of course, I'm not everybody in Brussels, a former I mean who is, let's face their archives, Romania, the Ep S, bees clutches Is to sell, we ve gone through all the details here, so we ve got the problem of the regular case for collusion and we ve got the about and the obstructs the overarching question, Donald Trump AIDS, the probe. Is it because its legitimate or because he's trying to cover

something up now barely any closer to the sands. If you believe that it is a legitimate part of one of them, what you believe is A story about Washington and the media right So the story is that Washington S now Washington, the swamp and the deep state altogether too, for referred to as the swamp racket it's called the sewer read this morning that it should be a sewer, but let's say so, the swamp and the deep state, and the media altogether are seeking to deal legitimize and destroy the term presidency, because it is a revolutionary you, no effort to do the men. Under these conditions, if you accept this as a general proposition than by definition, almost anything the Trump Trump is accused of, is coloured by this and anything that Trump does to push back against. It is an active

their ordinary normal human desire, to not be accused of the wrong thing or actual heroism, because you were you, in a war for the country survival against these people who want to destroy the country. I believe that you cannot understand trumps behaviour on twitter or in the last six weeks, without understanding how important this second narrative is to him and people in the White House? Ordinarily, you would think in conditions that they now face in which they are looking at failures on Capital Hill, with the health care bill, and if the healthcare bill fails, then the tax reform bill will fail, because They need money from health care to pay for tax reform and various other things, and that it should be in a position where he is seeking to reach outside of his narrow base, to gain enough political support to put some pressure on people in the middle and put pressure on

Republicans who ordinary Republicans in from independence to line up with him and back him cuz we know, is that the backing of thirty eight forty percent of the country and that we know that sixty percent of country is hostile toward him and he needs to read, further, but that is not what he is doing, what he is doing as he is intensifying here, he is seeking to intensify his support at his base. This is politically very weird because he already has the support he doesn't need to intensify and it's not gonna help with this larger project of having a successful presidency ivory coast, is he more leveraging that support in sir of his defence for the problem or the war, is he more using his defence regard? the probe too.

Hence if this important his base, which witches, which is the yet the downs, rabbit YO, and I think I don't think this has anything to do with his base voters or any sort of strength, strategic thought at all. It's just about indulging his desire to have his his preconceptions validate that's all scary movie thing. Ok! So if that's the case, then that comes It's too are potential innocence here, because he's not like creating a zone of defence. He's just he's making it's just. Situational and he's just dodging him said. I'm not entirely prepared to be that exculpatory wolden to provide absolution heard, Donald Trump self, because I know I can't rule out whether or not the utterly you don't think I'm correct, but I can't rule out whether or not he believes it is family in their zealous urge to make their father proud overstepped about and maybe he knows that maybe he doesn't, but he's probably not so sure. Ok,

the only thing I would say about this, this whole line is scary. Movie himself said on Friday in his opening press conference that knows something about support that the rest of us down and that he is arbitrage. Incas support, meaning, he is both leveraging it and hedging it at this time. So you can. You can take from that. What what what you well, it could be that in our trump support intensity help somewhere doesn't help him. I just think it's interesting, because I think it is pretty clear that his determination now is to be in a perpetual war With the media and the swamp right, that is, that is his that's. Where he's going with us and its look, Republicans or perpetual ward media, that's and conservatives are too and justifiably so But if you are president in your present one with a minority, the vote and did not in fact when the popular

and only one but doesn't razors enlargements, restates anyway. The idea that you can succeed by intensive buying your base at the risk of a larger number of people who are. You are alienating by your continued hostile behaviour. Seen self destructive. The only solution for this is success. Right at me these that we does what every does, but if you know their economies is them, you know we do great and we have great things happen. But there's all these things is not doing is not building the wall is not doing every hundred infrastructure he's. You know doing piddling little things you notice or make his maiden America trade stuff happen, but you know, right now. Apparently they are putting a lot of pressure on people and the senator pass some cause some version of the Senate Healthcare bill. But if the bill contain

used to polish. Twenty percent is not going to succeed so just think it's a weird situation that he finds himself in that he is placing himself in politically and you trust his instincts, and he once doesn't want people say guessing his instincts and scam, which he himself said. That's. Why he's there to let Trump be Trump too he's the greater communicator. We have, he knows how to talk to people. He knows how to get elected. He knows he's one. The greatest victory in election history, in some of that is its a fair com, it was the graves of the greatest stunt. An american political history of this guy went from that escalator to being to living in the White House. That is in the White House. Managing the complications of being president is clearly something that not only doesn't he have a great sense of, but he is not learning on the job

because if you were learning on the job he would know it makes no sense to attack your attorney general, whom you cannot fire without creating horrendous. Conditions for yourself in the end up in a confirmation hearing with his successor. So you know that's just said There's no way to look at it accept being stupid. It's not that now no cameelious there. You know there were no closer to answering the umbrella question. What were we can't abhors? Nobody can write and with all the what'll happen, is this problem will result in indictments, ordered or were report that will cause Congress to get involved or won't, but I think we ve done a pretty good job of diamonds for those who are in the trunk camp. Who say this is a witch hunt or a soft coup, which you hear very frequently that this is not only legitimate but necessary broke. Look I

I am sympathetic to the idea that if there is no underlying collusion, that you have a real, the issue of whether or not the entire world stopping on a dime to discuss this whole matter is not simply a version of attempting to reverse the results of the elect Rights of not if it all innocent and wall we're talking about as Might Flynn having some phone calls and you, know, sessions forgetting a couple of meetings and Trump getting matted call me, because he should have fired him in the first place cosy. He behaved so bad billion in twenty. Sixteen that there's some have sympathy for better, but so what well I'll take your word them play play that out, but look let's per day this forward. So imagine at the end of this year that there, at the actual end of this probe, there's no collusion boy. Oh boy, DV there that the Trump supporters there that his base out there

I'm gonna take this and run I mean they are- will have every reason to write that you're, not only but you're, probably gonna gonna have that clear cut a message. You'll probably have something that's akin to how James Comin exculpating Hillary Clinton in by dieting her in every way, but maybe I'll go out again. The question is not whether goes the president himself. It's all a question of where who gets nailed for what and at what level they are and how how closer distant they are from him right. And we have gone gotten into the whole question of him using public about whether or not he just pardons everybody, including himself to the whole other. We started asking about pardons because you know you're just interested ass, the other spent as he's just talking about what has powers are zone,

but I will say that, yes, the president can tweet about limited nuclear exchanges, but its disconcerting. If he, basically, I will say this- I do believe that if the president were to pardon himself- and there is an argument to be made- that he does have the power to pardon himself- that he would not survive that he would in fact be impeached and convicted and thrown out of office. Because we are, we talk about crossing a red line. If we create the conditions under which a president is literally above the law throughout the country. Will that the country will you will have to vomit this out, and I think he will not. He will not. He will not in fact, he's not impress not that imprudent, he's rhetorically imprudent He's actually, maybe in action, less reckless, it's the words then the tweets the come out of his mouth it as we can see in the course of his presidency. He you know, doesn't really go further

oh, like you know, there's a lot of things that he's not going for that. He said he was going to go for cleaner, where, where, whereas effort to rewrite. Libel lie, didn't muffins going on there, for example anyway. So I I think at this is maybe our longest PA gases are right. What does it look like it's up there? Okay, so We better start because you're probably board we we'd even get to talk about the horrendous break out of a possible third intifada in Israel, in which, apparently, Israel is Has now is now been indicted by international public opinion for the horrible act of placing metal detectors at a wholly sight, after after three policemen were were stab there, which is apparently a new war crime to have metal detectors at at sight. So, apparently, if

but a Yankee Stadium and go through metal detector. You you have the right to stab police malls her wherever malls. You know that as I said, like my friend of mine, a runs a museum of the centre for jewish history. The issue we nursing museum- I went to visit them, went through a metal detector till I stabbed everybody because it was discussed such of offence against, might might my freedom mechanic and the Vatican can you imagine how often anyway, this is an impossible things talk about, because you actually have people seriously saying well, he's really got to de escalate the metal detector crisis I mean this is then them Netanyahu likely meddled sections are least possible thing you can do. The most possible thing to do is set up. Checkpoints roadblocks closed. Temple Mount I mean there. Thousand things are good for more aggressive. This is the least aggressive possibly could do in this is creating international crisis. I mean if if this doesn't prove that Israel, literally no do you know that

that there is a level of insanity to which Anti Israel hatred will will will not descend? You know that they're there is no. There is no level to which will not will not descend. So with that crushing Ross, Ade will say goodbye until Thursday, I'm John Podhoretz for Noah Rothman, Andy Greenwald, keep the candle burning.