In the first COMMENTARY podcast of the week, Abe Greenwald and I survey the wreckage of Theresa May and point out that her disastrous showing represents the fourth major election in a year in which publics have rejected the idea that political professionalism is something to be sought in a leader. Why? They've forgotten, or have never learned, what the world was like until the fall of the Berlin Wall. Give a listen.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
some guy to the Commentary magazine podcast today, is Monday June. Twelve twin seventeen. I should know that, since yesterday was my daughter's birthday in its June eleventh. I should know that, but I was having trouble remembering it. I'm John Potter, the editor of Commentary commentary, the seventy two year old, monthly of intellectual probity, political analysis and cultural opinion from a conservative perspective, join us commentary magazine, we give you a few free reads, and then we ask you to subscribe for one thousand, nine hundred and ninety five, which will get you a digital subscription or two thousand nine hundred and ninety five, which gets you and all a
a subscription, including our beautiful monthly magazine in your mailbox eleven times a year. We are closing our July August issue with an amazing symposium on the threat to free speech readers, online and and and in hard copy will be availing themselves of that toward the end of the week and in next week. This is a great time to subscribe and get a chance to understand. The nature of the threat to free speech in the United States In our time with me, as always a Ringwald, our senior editor high Abe, high John nor Rossman, is on that. This week. So it's just the two of us with layer of mommy are notable young, sub suit producer sitting here at the keyboard, making sure that this is recorded properly so will see how we fair weather
no as dulcet tones and dj voice was always, as always, is a joint a pleasure for me to listen to what I would describe as having a dj voice, what and the kind of Dj Rona, meaning it out and knows no- is a sort of chipper, energetic, Cunningham wakes up puts it. Let's your step. Yes, if you like, One of those like early seven, these guys just now jazz there put her. This is really good when, when or net common devotee lunar label, like that everything up put you to sleep before get for forty gonna bet. Ok, sir. The big news says since we talk to last is the catastrophic result of the British Elect
for Prime Minister Teresa may, who of course called this a snap election with the expectation that she might end up with a hundred seed majority in the british parliament and instead lost fifteen seeds and. As newly empowered, the unbelievably irresponsible labour party, with its hideous head Jeremy, carbon, the anti semite terrorist lover insane left wing monster Soviet Bacco, effectively backer of this the union in its in its waning days, everything bad, you can say about carbon, you can't say bad enough and he is now the thoroughly empowered person who is not unthinkable will end up as the Prime Minister of Great Britain. So there are two things:
the british election Abe. One is simply the sheer insane political miscalculation that may made right yeah she didn't have to But I do have an election at all now and it's it's amid it's one of the things that sort of reminiscent about what goes what's going on in this country. In the end, your repeated recognise recognising of the basic lack of competence, political competence, being among it for it. So my friend and Roberts, the british historian commentators Porter Abrek said you know, said the problem. Wasn't the calling of the election. The colony election was a perfectly good idea. The problem was that was made the election and had literally no idea how to run an election. She was appointed prime Minister as a result of her party voting her in after David Cameron,
Who was a very skilled politician resign because he lost the brags at vote? He had wanted Britain to remain in the European Union, but you know Cameron's very skilful person in May was simply somebody who was the best person standing according to the people in the Tory Party but certainly gave no indications before that she had a national profile high enough for a Norway with people good enough. To prevail, you know: that's parliamentary systems are different from american systems, though people do nominally represent. We know boroughs constituencies, they are placed in those constituencies by the party, and basically these are party votes. It's very rare that people are, you know very specifically voting for a candidate and not for
the party overall. So nobody has any idea whether anybody is charismatic or has a following, or I sat until they really have to make a showing for themselves. In one thing that was sir, True, german carbon is whatever else you might say about him and thirst. As I said before, not much good, you can say about him and many bad things. You can say about him. He took over the Labour Party as a result of a populist reference system under which people were allowed to vote in four party leader of somebody by paying five pounds to join the Labour Party, and so he organised a gigantic young left wing romp that bought him. His didn't buy it, but I mean they bought into the party literally for five pound and voted a man, so he at least had a popular fallen and that not unlike sanders in some sense right, though it with his own microbe contributions, kind of right, I mean,
or let logistically. You know these parties theirs nothing more or less than a than a parliamentary political party in our decide on their leaders at a party get a closed party convention there is. There is of much partners now popular vote, but labor had the idea that they could organise. They could Bela Bus sort of Sanders like or American, like following by involving people in the party directly in the process by having them pay a few bucks to to join in. This was an incredible miscalculation in one sense, because it led to unexpected result of having this crazy person we have taken over the party and, on the other hand, though, and in the end labour lost and didn't with this election. He certainly did we
better than he realized? That means that other there were a lot of young voters with skin in the game, will join the party to vote for him and who turned up at the poles to vote for him. So you know I asked there's something in in maize bad performance here of the idea that everything moves so much faster today and it's end is moving faster still will be moving. best result tomorrow, and that means new cycles start and end more quickly in the one comes on, and if you have a political opportunity now that moment that window capitalize on it, is so small and can be snatch right out from only think about how small this window is. This is, I think, a six week campaign that is a right in american terms. That is not I mean in so that, but I mean again her mishandling of it was very specific too, like she decided to run. and then she as Stephen days leave sadden commentary both online line in an article in the June issue. Is she
her campaign with strength, verses weakness. It wasn't right, verses, left, it wasn't right, verses wrong. It was a moral verses, immoral, it wasn't the you no misunderstanding of the roots of terrorism in a way that german carbon would effectively be ache. Sympathiser with the people who blow up whom you know, Dr Off DR onto bridges, kill people in and jump out in stab me ideologically much closer to them than he is in some ways to western democracy, but she decides when a strength. Horses weakness campaign then turn that she wasn't particularly strongly release this manifesto with have with a cent.
bull American based idea that you know in in the United States, if you're, if you're old and you want to, I have the entirety of your health care paid for by the government in the right way. You are supposed to effectively impoverish yourself. Like you, you can't simply expect the government to put you on the doll forever, if you own property, for example, the proper needs to be near. You need to take care of yourself to some extent, so she had set up this idea that you know people pensioners should, after you know, use their homes to support their own decline, and then this came to be known as the dimensions waxen and while it is economically sensible, its politically psychotic and she backed off it. So that interfered with her strength, verses weeks, since she wasn't it
strong enough to hold she wouldn't debate, Corpsman, which looks weak, not strong and she's, really unpleasant, and you know the base of the Tory Party. We now say the surf thatcherite base. If there is one doesn't like, doesn't trust our cause, she's two left wing in or more left wing, and The people didn't trust that she was a hard breaks it here. I think a lot of people who may have like breaks it didn't really trust her technology, and then there was the phenomenon in London. Where, where you know the entire serve
economic class voted against May in the hopes, maybe that they there could be some kind of them take back of the brings about which you know this or of the banking class of of of England and a lot of other people just can't can't bear. But I think when we think about this, we now have this larger question. Ok, so may probably won't last that have made as last. It's likely that a politician, the more interesting, more dynamic public, like Boris, Johnson or something like that will take over the conservative party and will have qualities that she doesn't have and will possess other failings that she doesn't possess. But certainly this period of her prime minister ship will disappear proceed into the midst of time.
it's more what it suggests about the west generally. So this is the third election. Now you could say breaks it could make it the fourth, but so we have breaks at Trump Mccrone in France and now may in great Britain, and what do we have here? We have an overthrow in three of the foremost important democratic countries in the world. We have an overthrow of existing law arms. Let's say I mean, may one normally she lost fourteen seeds ought to think you can say she won the labour didn't win, but you can say that Jeremy, carbon. heading the Labour Party. Those resurgent functions effectively as a kind of victory for the weird outsider lunatic the what used to be called the law
left in Britain right I mean these. All these these countries have been robbed by this by this change and and the interesting question is, as winter, was elected here. There is a lot of discussion about this being a moment for people who wanted their voice heard and hadn't had their voice heard before and and There is on the right a lot of sort of thoughtful reflection about having left out certain people, the the white Working Class out of the political process and haven't to reassess engaging them and what not. But I am not entirely convinced that explains what's going on there to be more a case, and this is now
international or multi country phenomenon of public's just deciding that they don't have to bow to the status quo or napping impressed by it or so we were discussing this as a, we get old at the general framing. Now is it's populist, vs, elitist right which never quite make sense, because, while Donald Trump may speak as a populist, he certainly isn't the populist and then he classic understanding the market to list crook base. So I'm wondering whether the way to look at this is as a kind of rejection of classic,
The middle of the road idea that politics is a profession like any other profession and what you want from the person who runs the your political system is for him or her to have proved herself rising through the ranks, doing lots of different kinds of political jobs. Some legislative, some executives of there's enough experience, so they know how to deal with people how to deal with constituents how to deal with people who are your constituents, but without alienating Lamb had to do this. How to do that and that new serve rise in the party, approves you and then the public at large approves you and that this is served and an understanding of the way things work so that even when you had somebody, this
so much the ever saying the way things work that even when you have somebody like Ronald Reagan, who had been a to term governor of the largest in the United States. There were still some question when he ran and seventy six and eighty about whether or not he had sufficient experience, because he had only been a governor incumbent. He come too late and he didn't really have the ground or whatever some of that was simply the illogical, but it wasn't entirely until you have idea that all things being equal, you want somebody who knows the rules of politics and it is now clear without scintilla of doubt that public's do not care about this at all. Now you could say something they don't care, because Hilary got more votes than prompt, you know in May got more votes than carbon than the Tories did better. All them, then labour, but
close enough to say that any appeal, HU, a larger public on the grounds that you can't give this guy. This job he's never had a job like this before he won't know what he's doing, which is essentially what were the case was against Mccrone and was the case against tromp and would be the case against corpsman. Aside from is of no interest there are tens of millions are hundreds of millions of people in the world who do not care the way we saw the case, we saw the situation in its micro form in Obama, who had little experience but not everyone, South South America, and also in him. We in his report, was that this sense that all other cases. Share which is people are hungry for sensation. They one be dazzled and they want firebrands and they want ideologues. They want to be pollution as of one sort or another. Well, ok, so you can go back and
recent american history and say that this whole thing abandoned expertise and everything is way more. The exception and the rule of Jimmy Carter was a one term governor of Georgia, who became President say that Carter's total incompetence, as president was a mark that this was a dumb decision by the vote by the electorate. you could also say that that you know that came in wake of a of a system shattering, will crisis. In Watergate end and that you know. Washington seem so sorted that this guy from nowhere with no record, was you said I'll, never lie to you, and you know, was a good christian and all that we don't leave the ice and clean, and you know how to wholesome. That was a good moment for one thousand, nine hundred and seventy six Reagan As even though is a tutor was a good moment in nineteen. Eighty and Obama was a good model.
Nineteen in two thousand, eight George W Bush had been somebody who came to governorship blade, though we had a famous name. He had not even gonna gotten into politics until late forties really in and was thus had served one and a half terms as governor of Texas. So maybe this is a rule that is really a rule, but it certainly feels different now I mean says something as yet has given. I don't feel like the system is being that it. None of those cases didn't feel like the system was being overturned or deliberately handed to people who said I hear blow this they might, they might have set up your clean it up, I'm here to fix it, I'm here to get things back on track and though that is part of Trump trumps message. Certainly was I'm here to blows up mccrone. You know, invented a party and you know basically watched as the two major parties.
France committed cereal suicide to lead him to let him sort of emerges the possible bulwark against this NEO Fascist Party, but I I think that we do. We have the situation in which there's gotta be a reason why the public's have decided that the rules don't apply when it comes to people knowing their jobs, and we know that that you know we would have said the presidency's non entry level possess. Before and now the presidency is probably more an entry level position than any other job in politics and think makes. The in the analysis tricky is that this would mean a lot more sense if you could really point to sort of terrible living, standards and any just just read for results of business as usual politics for these decades. But things are not that path. Things have not been that bad well or
do they have, in other words, so I posited last March and March of twenty sixteen that the way The only way to understand tromp was that he was the reckoning very delayed reckoning for the financial meltdown that that that we would have happened. Election, we would have had a sort of a shattering election had them had the financial meltdown health in two thousand, seven two thousand and eight would have been the Trump election or something very close to it. But since the meltdown happened seven weeks before the two thousand and eight ballot in old Obama became the only way to vo2 and then two thousand and twelve became a referendum on him. So it had to wait, and then we had these two totally topsy turvy in elections, where the Republicans one hundred and sixty three seats, hand in the house at nine seats in the seven twenty fourteen presaging that there might be a topsy turvy election and twenty sixteen
and that the major issue of the of the decade of that time was that people thirty five percent of the value of their stock portfolios and then their pensions and everything like that and by twenty sixteen, it lol gotten back to normal, but there has been a lost decade of earnings and that's pretty severe. I mean that you know it's not it's not. You know the great depression, but it's not good and you now in Europe you had you had the Greek melt down. You have his constant bail outs of of of poor Southern Europe by rich Northern Europe, and then you had the refugee crisis, and you know feckless management and heavy handed Brussels- and you know On the one hand, you have this old, terrible migrant crisis kind of throwing things out of work, and then you force had the still March on Russia Man on rush of the notion that it was ill
I to say anything about whether or not having a million refugees all at once in the country of fifty five million people was a good idea, particularly if you didn't know who they were. They were coming from a war zone where their people were being trained in in radical terrorist behaviour So if I mean that's, when we look at it, if we are still in fact in this post financial crisis universe, when do we cycle out of that went windows? What what what is the what's what's the facts? What when do? We know that where we can breathe easy now, well, meaning
I think the only way that will know I'm there, two things, one of which is we could have way. We have economic grow. We can. We can return to a more sustained economic growth, although of course, the years before the economic crisis did not show much emanation fine, but slow to two and a half percent economic growth which were at again I'm an. Obviously we have other problems in the country that crime way. We don't have that's what we have an, albeit we haven't alkaloid crisis. We have a mobility crisis, we have you know we have this general idea that we are incredibly divided as a nation and that in our people hate each other people hate the person of the other party people, don't just dino, don't like their ideas, but they actually have affirmative dislike of people who think differently from them and that that something new
and then in Britain, you have your Chris Caldwell of the weekly standard move right about this constantly that we just don't understand the degree to which the feeling that leads have betrayed the interests of the not well off how that colors everything. Now the question is: is that class consciousness or something else, because classically there's one class consciousness throughout the nineteenth and twentyth centuries in which mass movements like communism, fascism, others all depend on the notion that the poor being done hard by the rich? And you know it is time for a reckoning in which
Richard Overthrown and the poor, given the given the mantle power. But that's not that's not our dynamic anymore right right. It means standards of living for, for those, for the poor have risen dramatically. I mean you know in the United States we know there's. This does is no hunger Emmi, there's, there's thirst hunger due to pathology and things of that nature, but there's not fino institutional hunger and bend, and there has been people have televisions air conditioners and and and automobiles, and you know the washing machine rise and video games and Netflix. You know you know a level of sort of material that export expected level material comfort that has so far beyond what anybody had just sixty five
five years ago that in new everybody takes it for granted, which is fine. That's what you're supposed to do when you have a rebel when you have rising expectations, but I'm thinking more in terms of if we don't think by class right. What are we think by we think by these new qualities of class right? What people generally call identity politics, we sort out out by the collar reserve. Colors of our skin by our sexual preferences by are ethnicities generally are gender by are fluid of gender and all that and and that you know, of course, the great painful discovery for the people who invented but peddled identity politics over the last forty years was that if you push it and push and push hard enough,
the declining majority or the plurality in America, that is, the white Working class may develop identity politics of its own and that you may think that it's only fair for identity politics to be from minority groups and then, if the Georgie thinks well? Why are the minority wire minorities getting all its attention where we're pretty screwed? Also, then it turns out, they can be a pretty potent forts right I mean, and I think that that that is what through that's what the way working less resents about the elites. It's it's not it's not this idea. It's not that it's not material want that that that their angry about. I think it's it's it's being corralled and forced to care about what what these institutions tell them to care about, or they say basically you matter less you matter less man, you know and L Gb
you person are you matter less than a black person, you matter less than a hispanic person, you matter less now, when p we say that it's it's ridiculous. Less for the majority to say, I need someone to say I matter more. The reason that nobody should now on the basis of their. You know gender, or sexuality or the color of their skin like we live in a this. Is employer bassoon him we live in we live in a society in which the individual's was to be paramount. Not not a and your accepting the basis of this thing that you hate. When you give into it and say what about me
where's, my as we say, is as people do we give us it where's my covet where's my covered where's, my where's, the respect that you owe me, and that was what Trump understood right. So when you have this thing with great joke on the right, is this whole like trap you now you make a joke about something I got. That's how you got trump, because you made a joke about that and that's offensive to somebody in young town. Ohio once like. Well, ok, fine, but everything is how you got trump and everything that is in the universe of how you got Trump is something that seems to accept that the prevailing social consensus of fifty years ago was bad or in need of renovation or change or Vienna warm evolution or something like that. But you know what people need Abe. Please help me.
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You have no idea, it's a great mattress. Have we need a new matters, it'll be so helpful to ask as they keep advertising that we get other advertisers and then we'll have money for Snapple. Like I said last week, I'm good I tunes and give us a rate review clause, human rate about that that's good, but go and buy a cask Rapturous W W W Casper that comes last cometary. We thank Casper response. The commentary magazine podcast now Abe, yes, ape talk to me. I'm looking at my notes what there is. There is another aspect of yes although we haven't touched a Kasparov actresses, though about populism and leaders of a trumpet array, and yes, please and a rash of electric police- is that working away from it from a point in time from a point in history where we where everyone had this common understanding of why certain detentions and norms among among these democratic countries were important and safe to hold on to wreck. There is now this
historical literacy, that's kicking among voting public's right. So let's lets us will take this with Bernie brows mccartin. The Corbett voters just very soon right, so radical leftists, young Ralph left us, don't know as many young right wingers in areas as in those of the of the creation of the Post war, liberal order that bull objective. They don't like data. They don't like the World Bank data like this. They don't like the EU. They don't like all of these institutions that were created twenty, whatever were created to knit. the economies and the harmonised, the foreign policies of friendly countries to create the can actions under which radically
Millinery and regimes could not rise in the Centre of Europe and in various places to pose a direct threat of another war in which fifty or sixty million people could be killed so that we understood that something had to be done to create a not a world order, but a liberal set of common conditions around the world that country's couldn't hear too. That would benefit everybody in the largest sense and and it has been spectacularly successful, the most dangerous place on earth for the last thousand years was Europe WAR torn, wouldn't even begin to describe,
What went on on the european continent pray much from eight hundred to nineteen forty five and if you think, constant war and if you think using inequality today, yeah right. so Europe, we know, with the exception of you know, of of the outbreak in Bosnia. Europe has been a pacific place for seventy five years for the first time in world history was the epicenter of instability, crisis, unnecessary death. no seizure of other people's asset, seizure of other people's property and land, and all that it's been a spectacular success. Success for us, successful Japan, successor Southeast Asia, success for you now and so the Trump arises and others arise and say all of this is bad for us or there's something fundamentally bad for us and trumpet
seventy one years old, so he has no excuse but its understandable that people who are third now or are you now around the age of our friend last sitting here, do being the producer? Have no to have no recollection of or much historical grounding in that which that was with that which was the norm, before we establish new more of more decent and more organised norms right and similarly The far left, the younger members up Or left both here and in England are now too young to fully understand and appreciate the failures of the kind of policy. and ideas d, as someone like Orban, is, is proposing that the fetters that those already seen in his right well,
joke in England was people that Teresa may in the Tories and stuff we're saying: hey Britain's you don't want to go back to nineteen, seventy nine and there like what was nineteen, seventy nine I'm there I was born and nineteen. Eighty six I was born and night Me too, I don't know what happened in nineteen. Seventy nine Britain was reduced to three. They work week. There, massive strikes there were, there was called the winter of discontent. James Callaghan, the Prime minister, was essentially take. down by Margaret Thatcher who instituted a radical series of privatizing economic reforms and a confrontation with the Looney left in Britain, both on foreign and domestic policy that brought about this while There was a point in the nineteen seventeen when Britain had the same gdp as or per capita income as Puerto Rico. Britain is now the third or fourth richest country in the world, so it was in it was going.
our fast and it was turned around. Similarly, communism as a wonderful idea of socialism, communism were dealt this group blow in the Sixtys and Seventys by the cambodian hall. cost by you know the revelations of social needs than the glove archipelago, which change Nature of french politics, for example, when less radical leftist french intellectuals read the gulags archipelago and realised that they had been fronting for barbarity that, when even beyond the Nazis, in some way What else the revolution in IRAN? We all these? You know that what happened in Vietnam education camps in Vietnam, after the desired wish of the left that the north enemies subsume South Vietnam, like all of this, created it
giant crises but much of the african communists, dictators yeah. So all this creates this. Why? cries continents the left any when it and a surge of voter enthusiasm. For you know what we were called. Conservative governments were actually just liberal governments from England to the United States stood other places and the surgeon democratic confidence, so that you now there were fifty more democratic countries. At the end of Reagan's term, then there had been when he became elected rights that was three years ago and now classical liberalism is smeared as NEO liberalism, answer idea and and called a force for evil. Yet a force for evil because it seeks to you know it seeks to harmonise the relations between countries instead of create constant confrontations within and without them, and, of course, the argument that made on the basis of Bonn the behalf of the p
who want all this is that the existing, the currently existing world order, that is being overthrown, is not fair because it simply its. Enriches the already privileged and that the privileged don't understand that, while they may think that would happen was a democratization of things, it was actually just the way they would reach the privileged and you are privileged in your privilege. And yet we know that, because of liberal trade, scientific discovery. And advances inventions over the past forty years and all that that a billion people, a billion people across the globe have have emerged, from starvation and subsistence into not. We would consider the middle class in the United States, but what would be globally considered the middle class and certainly in the one thousand eight hundred would have been considered almost unimaginable wealth.
But that's all due to this liberal order that is now being hacked Dat by by people who have no idea what it was like before and are willing to. You know like topple the foundations, to see what his neck strike. Any free trade aside from having having been a boon to the West also lifted the develop Bing world out of just rushing tragic poverty and is now free trade, as I consider the enemy of of the Bernie Broken and whoever else it's it's it's an evil, neoliberal! Right prevention, so the real question is whether this, whether these violet reading the old norms and
creating new norms, theory that gave rise to you now trumpet the more theoretical the American Affairs Magazine Ban, UNAIDS. You know deconstruct the administrative state. You know to provide this new populist revolution, whether what we're gonna see over the next three years is a discrediting of that by the manifest and competence of the Trump peons empower and Lee you know, and the fact that they can achieve results that they can go. They can in fact improve the lives of people. One of the reasons that Hillary Clinton was so clueless and bad in terrible is that in the end She had nothing to say about how she was gonna, make things better. All she could say is I'll, provide you with Turkey leave I'll make sure they do. You get the right health care I'll do, but it wasn't like. I will leave office.
When you do Ex Whimsie, because things are like this and they will be much better. So Trump said everything will be fantastic, but Hilary couldn't even poorer, What's that things in general would be much better, because and this is part of what makes her distasteful to so many people, because she she knew full well and knows- full well everything we're talking about in terms of the benefits of liberal world order and free trade and what not, but she played by these new rules return. regulation where she's she speaks the language of inequality recently and and- and She was an identity politics right, I dont harpist right, so his pitches bake, Amerika, great again and winking doing dog whistling and winking to the white Working class. Saying I'm with you now with them.
she was the them. She was the I'm with time with with gaze I'm with women. I'm with you know, minorities I'm with this and all you call minors. You need this me with that people like you're, not my people right, you're, deplorable You have terrible you're, you know, and we just need to watch. You die off. That's not what she said, but there is a whole bunch of thinking on the, but we do need to put you out of work. She did say that, but I mean there's a whole bunch thinking on the on the left. That says what what is going on here, as we have a gigantic demographic shift going, and we need to accelerate to the euthanasia of this terrible set of a pin, retrogressive opinion so that the you know, brave, new world of identity. Politics can run
run the world right and that debt. The scary thing, is there a sense of inevitability to these ideas that it's just it's a matter of getting back ever ever closer to this perfect ideal, which of course connects them inevitably to that is that is the origin of you know. Leftist materialist dialectic is that you know history moves in that direction. Right now, if there is one thing we can say about, this weakens of history is not moving in any direction. Nobody knows what this directive they do now and we could be more than just a ditch. dead, short or straighten rehearsal exactly so so once again, I think we have left left people wanting to state a state really deep happiness and contentment summer after
It is somewhat that's right, lady, say two degrees in New York, so you can forgive us for four apocalyptic sense that you know the heat will never die out. But that's: ok, don't see the Mummy, that's my main Tipp to ok, to saying if you need to go boot canal, if its choice, we get a route canal, the Mummy will join the come out more than the money, and that's all I'm gonna say so for a report drawn up by.
Transcript generated on 2020-11-05.