Today's podcast features special guest star Andy McCarthy, who tells us about his important new COMMENTARY article "The Progressive Prosecutor Project" and schools us on what's really going on when it comes to the sentencing of Trump intimate Roger Stone. Give a listen.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome to the commentary magazine cast today. Thursday February Thirteenth we twenty I'm John, but towards the editor of commentary. Seventy five year old monthly of intellect Analysis, political probity and culture criticism from a conservative perspective. We invite you to join us commentary magazine where we give you a few free weeds, asked you to subscribe, one thousand nine hundred and ninety five for a digital subscription in twenty nine. Ninety five for an all access subscription, including our
the magazine in your mailbox eleven times a year. We are today closing our March issue later today, or just around the time you hear this we will have available for you the lead article in our arch issue. The progressive prosecutor project by Andrew See, Mccarthy. We are going to discuss that article in depth lay IRAN. In this episode with our guest arse, are second guest events in as many months following: Eli Lake, of course wrote the lead article in our last issue we are joined by and Dorothy, hello, Andy, Gent somewhere in great tonight, also here, as usual, a green wall sing. Hi I I don't know, often associated high Noah, I jump and in Washington senior writer Christie rose high, Christine I so before get to the reciprocity to project we have
Sultan New Hampshire and we're gonna have a little bit of a dust up over them. I think, because I argued in the New York Post on on primary night and will contain argue that, while Bernie Sanders one by appointing a half, it was a week victory and that he is a weak front runner. You prefer we are weak front runner, then not to front runner. Mitt Romney was a week front runner in twenty twelve and ended up winning, and you know if you had to bat based on what happened in Ireland. New Hampshire, you would say that the safer bet was on Bernie Sanders away by the Alps, but as Harriet and points out on me,
podcast on CNN, no one has done worse winning in New Hampshire in the modern era them Bernie Sanders with twenty six percent people with thirty five. Forty sixty what a her and the fact that no one it has never been the case that the three top candidate of have clear twenty percent in the polls centres did along with me, but a judge and Amy Club, which are so, I think, he's weak, and that's EP means that the the mess in the primary with Joe Biden prayed Ring Anna was with morons. Failure to thrive, leaves everything and might might might Bloomberg. Sir. You know Scrooge Macduff Sea of money that he is. You have novel easy swimming,
these pouring everybody else's head in oak. Coming up, you know from behind so Abe, but you, you think at the the idea that Sanders socialism is key him is overstated. Yeah. I it's not that I disagree with you that his actual showing is relatively weak. It's it's the line that its weak, because Democrats want a moderate instead and that the village drifts in decisiveness, about which moderate is is, is serve. You know building up and the denounce Sanders numbers I dont think about the idea that that Budapest, In particular, it has won them is, is pushing. Is these they? The moderate lane, I think, is problematic
because it's not he's not really a moderate. Well then, I know what I mean. I think it is fair to say no one is a moderate, including by that's my I'm right. You know that, like this, what we're talking about here, compartment right exactly or anything else running and that sort of aesthetics and by by static semi ass? Her do you know about the entire picture? Not just looks, but should sound in the surrounding. Believe me, it is a revolutionary nature of of the of the of the, but a judge Canada C is how being enow soft peddled in some odd way in which we were he to become the nominee and then were he to. Actually end up in the White House. Six years after or five years after the Supreme Court make constitutional eyes, gay marriage. There would be a homosexual in in the life is like
that transition itself as a social matter is it is it is. It is a radical change of american life that his own com, steady undramatic cell, presentation, I think, is the necessary component to make it seem as though it's not radical males are guided by the senior. I'm just add that I also think that it's just hard to call what what's happened would Sanders it when compared to twenty. Sixteen he's men to push the the party so far in his direction or bring it towards him Christine, and I think points really important to know. I had a while back written a piece about this and I think it's another example of in some ways, the way the political mainstream media has been shaping Buddha judges, image,
the past few weeks is very disturbing because his as a policy matter, he is not a moderate and it's one of the reasons. I think the closure get so annoyed with him, both in debates and in general with the coverage he gets, because not only is he a sort of young whipper snapper compared to her, but she actually is more moderate in some of her policy recommendations, more pragmatic, more governing experience- and I think that's one of the things it The deeply annoying about him, but I find it as a coming at this The conservative I find the Media'S- the trail of hit him enclosure lumped together as the moderate lane kind. Rather disingenuous, mean obviously there more moderate than senders, but booty judges is a fairly radical wolf in extremely moderate sheep's clothing. While there was a moment no right there was he tweeted earlier in the year that he would hey obeisance to Medicare for all to socialize single pair Care- and then there was this moment when Warren was challenge
to make up her mind about whether or not she was gonna side with the Obama CARE is sufficient and we just need Improve on it or whether she was going to sign on to the Sanders. You know we need to be Canada and then Dan, Cuba, probably more Cuba than Canada. Given his you know where he likes the honeymoon but and and put a judge, basically had she had to choose, and she chose America for all and a bullet judge in the single most important decision of his candidacy side to say he was for Medicare for all who want it right, which was the Biden line and we are now appointed which apparently, a bomb carries the conservative alternative in the United States. Really, if you think about it, it's kind of like half a loaf. It's not you know. I mean if we'd, if we have been told him twenty twelve, that about
I'm a care would be seen as some kind of a you know sell out to the man you know, I don't know where, where we would be at that sort of them, Dantes torture, to Republicans had been consigned is that they are now the essentially the defenders of Obamacare there. The defenders of the status quo in health care. Reform favours the argument on healthcare. Reform favours the status quo whenever the status quo may be. It's always an uphill push to reform health, particularly on any radical lines, mostly radical ones like taking. We all your healthcare but, as you said earlier, Johnny people who radiological like us, make a mistake by judging these candidacies on ideological lines, a lot more tonal and affect, and one of the things that Sanders has grown. Against him is the fact He has surrounded himself with people who reject the kind of civil engagement that It will remain something that we maybe
cherish necessarily cause it's eroding rather rapidly, but have some sort of an affection for you can see. In how Nevadas Cleaner Union has responded over the course the last couple of days, so their activated and their activated against Bernie Sanders at least leadership and sending out memos to there to their members? I dont think they're talking about how to caucus for particular candidates yet like they did in past cycles, but we may get there. But what happened? Was they send out these memos and those Bernie Sanders people his his people on the ground at work, hey as Bernie Sanders fans do. If you ve never encountered one of these people they have absolutely did they they they practice more political warfare, there are no rules of engagement, It turned a lot in them. Often they put opponents another statement, saying oh we're incensed by how we were treated. How horribly we retreated by these people, do not winning over and that you about that on the trail apparently campaign reporters. So we hear from people who energy
with Bernie Sanders people and they're, not civil, and they dont when you over, and they try to intimidate you and it's not great, and whether things in a peep it is simple borders and, to a lesser extent, Andrew Yang supporters. Had a lot of power to compel people over to this side, because their supporters reflected the kind of those that was evident at the top, which was much more civil, much more willing. To engage and to try to win you over as opposed to intimidate you into silence, and that really matters. Maybe it matters well, we'll see, will see how, if it doesn't it, doesn't matter will know but if it does matter it matters in the fact that the Culinary Union, which did stolen. The water now seems really eager to engage in this thing. Only because extremely online Journal Anders fans made them angry. We should explain the cure. Culinary Union is the largest union in Nevada? It is the union that represents people who work in the tourism in this
the hotels and in the casinos them in and everywhere else, and so they are bonanno me someone like ten percent of this or something like that works through Culinary union, and so they are powerful force and I also think that Noah's point is important. If you think about how the Democratic Party had there, you know, soul, searching moment after the Bernie Hilary debacle about gender right and sexism and all these Bernie brows. So the idea that this army man, Bun wearing Socialist Bernie Brows is still on. The attack is not a great look for the Democrats in your, especially since you're going to have a couple of old white guys up their onstage fighting pretty soon. So I think that there is. There is a kind of perception, problem for them. If that is indeed how his house supporters of behaving to say nothing of some of his surrogates, so we're ok, so is so every! Let me ask you as a blonde
observe all this map, so you have this situation, assuming somehow that this will not now wait. There's gonna be a debate before the before the Nevada, carcass, you will have. Seventy eight year old, Joe Biden, verses seventy eight year old, Bernie Sanders versus seventy seven year old, might Bloomberg and then you'll have Andy hardy and where are you how do you do whatever and then you'll, have you know I don't know it did though I may make a closure and my guess, Elizabeth WAR and will probably still be in it, and so the dramaturgy will be men. Yes, cloud verses. You know a boy wonder verses served to two women. What's the
What's the overall impact gonna be well either, this is to push back a little bit it at the lowest point about ideology. I really think that the dynamic in the race has to do mainly at this point, with what Sanders ceiling is because, whether its say a third verses, forty percent, forty five percent, fifty percent will determine how it seems to me the rest of the rice goes and whether what he you know, the relative, with twenty six percent, the audacity, whether that whether that's over performing underperforming or about where we should expect him to be at the eye? Everybody always compares this race to trot and Bernie Trump, and I was one of the the foolish people at
beginning of trumps run, whose didn't taken seriously you just said you know, look he's playing for a while and then and then he'll go away and by The time that it was clear that that wasn't true He not only was a jug or not, it was clear what his ceiling was and what needed to be done to beat him, whereas I don't, I don't see Bernie that way I've then this thing like, but is bad as you can analyze it. So I thought that I thought Corey border be a very strong candidate and I use the parting ass. He is Spartacus and so take this with what growing assault. Is I've always thought that if clove ashore goods around long enough because the very dynamic that just laid out describing these different candidates that there is at least a chance that the race could come to her which does it mean that she'll, you know, she'll take off
it means that you might have a chance to take off. You know she may get a moment. You know. I still think that might happen. The ceiling thing really matters here because of the structure of the democratic primaries trump one. The nomination on the first ballot easily with never getting more than forty, two or four three percent of the aggregate republican vote, because the states were winner. Most of this, all if Bernie Sanders is the delegates none of the Democrats states are winner takes all if Bernie Sanders is Trump, and he that's thirty to thirty five percent from here until you know until the the convention He will not have a sufficient number of delegates to win on the first ballot now that doesn't mean as no has long argued that if he's number one in the delicate count that that it will be-
to deny him the nomination of the White House opposite will it will either be impossible by the logic of the one man one vote, logic of the that the Democratic Party is completely party any institution there and there are no more institutional cereals, but I'm Literally, the Democratic Party believes in majority. Aren't you know? I mean whatever you want to call. It one man. One vote handling of everything right now to send its bad right, because, because an ounce, fifty three percent of the eighteen percent of people voted for impeachment and fifty three percent of the stairs Oh you know we aggregate seven. Hers, which is an anti Semitism anti democratic institution, bites there design Right- but that is not the democratic or liberal logic any more about anything- sack Accept Iowa, right except the. I will cause his way. You don't know when the popular vote to win what that's not gonna happen more. The ILO Caucasus, I M in wheat with if, if the Democratic Party has another caucus after twenty twenty, I would be very surprised begin again,
precisely because they have embraced this. You know most two way literally religious degree, this notion that anything that does not involve the counting of votes and the someone get b one vote ahead of somebody up. That's how you determine who wins, even though they do before representation as they also like proportional representation, to make sure that everybody is presented if you're minorities, on the one hand there one man one vote and, on the other hand, are proportional representation and they're gonna drive themselves as crazy as they have driven all of us, the winning leaving the Trump analogy is strong because the longer this goes on the more this, the effect of winning will choir. More support from from voters. We ve drill down into the second choices again more and more to the point serenity that voters are necessarily entirely ideological set, set Biden. Second choice: voters, most of them sanders
yeah, but you know that could literally be the fact that these are the only two people that the ban it would be a hold of run exactly, but that does not go as you go state by state where people when, when this, when This is what we learned in New Hampshire who have the most literate state of all, states, and they all they do- is weak candidates every four years in everyone's Ben everyone all this, and so club, which our terms in a good debate, performance on Friday and gets twenty percent on Tuesday they should have known club, which are by now we will you now we watched? Did the ice every minute of every one of these debates, people in New Hampshire was to be. You know, are supposed to go first, because they're, so incredibly, politically deliberately literate and it took one good they performance for heard it. To crush Elizabeth warns, hopes and to eat Biden Lunch. I mean that's weird and deny, but a judge
a victory which I suppose, if she had done badly in the debates, he would have ended up beating Sanders easily cuz. He only lost by a point and a half. Could I ask you guys a question? What what is the polling cuz? I haven't filed this closely, not on people who, for whom the most important thing is beating Trump and does that put aside to stop marginalize all these? Not everybody says it, but that doesn't mean we know what they mean by it. In other words, they can say, what's most important is being troubled, think that Sanders is the way to be trumpets clear that when Biden was dominating dominate whatever when he was at thirty percent in the polls entirety of his thirty percent, the pulses, the notion that he could be Trump and am was of appeal to the african american community and those are the two. Those are the two but Sanders voters also say that they want someone who can be Trump they're, not saying you know there
doing the gym, demand it. It's the single greatest thing ever said in politics, meaning by which I mean bad thing, but, like I said ass. The thing is when the Senator Jim demand them later, the now the ousted head of the heritage foundation. Said that he would rather have thirty, really good conservative Republicans in the Senate than sixty rhinos which is literally the dumbest thing anyway by politics, because if you have a thirty, could Republicans literally stop nothing including including by the way they can block in out they can. Deal with it overturned veto they can. They can do nothing. It was like the perfect stay of Sir idiotic the over sanity and there's reviewed at last at the head of a thinking, but there's a theirs there's a way in which the de the EU, Each way in which trump is crazy. Making for Democrats is is answers both what you're saying about.
And an annual you ve, said about who can beat Trump and No, I just said earlier about Sanders being people second choice in some ways that I think there are a lot of Democrats who would rather see a moderate with experience like Biden while cause- I moderate. You think that someone like that with gravitas whose messages normalization could be trouble. On the other hand, he's done poorly. So why? Wouldn't you take as you're as your backup hitter someone like Sanders? Who, as you know as volatile and screeching crazy and has the same hate? of the media that trumped, as you know, sort of putting up Godzilla in Malta. So I think they're both understandable explanations, but it points to a deeper confusion among Democrats right now. Ok, so with Nevada coming up fact is that we will have very little polling of because it's a carcass and therefore is in
only expensive to Paul. Well and of course, the last now famous the last caucus Paul the greatest of all pollsters the I will fall by the seltzer pull that was so wonderful in every possible way. Doesn't even released when I what's happening. I dont think and work going to still be gleaning all of this information I should say on the poles, and it is important to note in terms of like looking at the world clearly that I've been saying that for a week or two weeks somewhere, or a week you this Gallup Poll, says we ve been citing the Gallup Poll results. There were so incredibly favourable to trumpet the Republicans and and scale to national poles. Pack and Emerson, have come out that shit
absolutely no analogue, except for a modest rise in trumps approval, but dont show the swift and close closing in on fifty percent and the Republican Party outdistancing Democratic Party in the generic and all of that, so you know beat be cautious about You now be cautious about the triumphal ism that some conservatives have now engaged in over the results of the galloping because they don't seem to be parallel by by anybody else So, let's, let's move on to the unprecedented threat of all time leave of the burning of the Reichstag and the you I don't know what else the storming of the best deal in every that that represents some Donald Trump Firing, some people and then the, Roger Stone General. Apparently somebody over
overruling the wreck, mendacious of prosecutors and Roger Stone case that stone convicted of witness tampering and lying to come. Rests. They recommended seven to nine years, Andy are you talking about your piece for commentary and the second half, but we now talk about your splendid piece, national review where work yesterday. On the Roger Stone Sensing fiasco which I think is First, the last word on this matter. We should say that Andy, I I'm sure most of the people were listening. Now this, but and he's a former federal prosecutor prosecuted, the blind shake case and how long were if your tweets, twenty years twenty years before, before becoming a full time, you know writer for the public prince so
give us the wisdom of your accumulated experience. Well This is a really manufactured controversy in the sense that all week talking about here are non binding commendations by a pie. Thirty two, the litigation this case to the government, the Justice Department to the court under circumstances where The court is not only not bound by anything the prosecutor recommends. The court is not even bound by the sentencing guidelines, which is what the two letters disagree about. We should explain federal sense and guidelines, which I think we're first laid out. In the late eighty right in order to make sure that you know these things happen where, like a murderer, gets three years, but you know, but, like somebody convicted of pod use gets nine years, they try to make sure that ranges of terms right and the ideas that are similarly situated, people who commit the same
then should get roughly the same satin run for you had them, you know statutes that people get convicted on likes a burglary, have a vast expanse the potential sentences like zero to twenty years, so I want to have a situation where some guys get twenty and some guys. Getting zero for essentially the same thing so that with the guidelines are meant to address, but this record is held at their advisory. They don't bind the court at all and what's more in free case? Not only does the government make a recommendation with a sentencing guidelines, calculation and by the way this is not. This is not so What's the atmospheric nature of argument about how evil and offences this is number crunching according to a grid right The court also gets a sentencing guidelines, analysis from the: U S, probation deportment, which administers to the defendant posts sentence, and they get in but from the defendants. More so what
what is at issue here is how the guidelines apply. Two stones offence, and the nub of the issue is: he is Victor on one of the accounts of witness tampering and there is a what's known as the guidelines of fat enhancement for if you get convict of witness tampering- and there is a threat of I once too, but witness you and Greece, the sentencing level by a point which has the effect of changing a sentence. That would be thirty. Seven six months range guidelines sentence of ninety two hundred nine months. So The process is in theory, rights. If a mafia also says you know, if you do this, you know you're you'll get about a bullet in the back of your head. That taken that Mafia so's thread is taken as very incredible and serious, and an effort to sort of ruin. The justice system, bye, bye,
scaring someone into silence, whereas in this case this was stone, saying something threatening in an email to this radio shock Jock, who was in contact with wiki leaks. Blah blah blah right, so the so the exactly rights of the enhancement, literally applies, but the person to whom the threat, was directed didn't think it was particularly serious Annex I get is sixty eight year old man living and in Florida with a bad back like what's what's he gonna write, so that's. The issue are basically the the prosecutors on the case. Did a literal application of the sentencing guidelines had said this thing applies, and that makes the sentence. Ninety two hundred and eight months, the justice Portman said why Arguably that's true, which is kind of a concession on their part that these prosecutors did come. Actually literally apply. The guidelines they also said, which is also true that in every
ass you supposed to look at how the guy mine's apply and if its disproportionate, give what you understand to be the gravity of the offence, then you should the raise it or lower it without doing damage to what the goals of federal sentencing are and what the guidelines framework is so that very interesting argument and its interesting to find the Justice Department, which usually defends law as written taken the position that here something litter we apply shouldn't be applied because it has a disproportionate effect, but should understand taking a step back, that none of this matters because the Jew knows that under the statutes. He's got about fifty years of export, yet ass. She Amy Jackson, Burma yeah, maybe Berman, Jackson, frightened. Stone, has about fifty years of exposure,
she doesn't have to send some under the guidelines. She can set some two zero. She can send some two hundred and fifty years she can sentence him according to the moderate Justice Department, guidelines, recommendation or the more harsh one she can ignore, both which they frequently do in cases, and she knows she can can do that and she's coming lately informed about what the guidelines say. So all of this much ado about nothing and it there's also an additional point. You making your peace, which is you say that the stone sentencing or the stone case Jim really is the last gasp of the of the mother broke and and and do so, their framing but Stone as some not frame body, but they are there, the sensing is certainly been put in the framework
others being connected to Russia, as as part of the sentencing, a memo right. You say from the before prosecutors who them resign when their guidelines were over worser we're overridden ridden by the Justice Department. Mention Russia right and that is actually not part of right, but was not part of the prosecution of stone which was about lying to Congress and suborning and in trying to witness against, This is, after my point, about people who are concerned about politicized justice stone was indicted about nineteen months after Mahler was appointed. I'm convinced that, very shortly after Mama was appointed, it was obvious to the prosecutors to hours team there was no Russia Trump conspiracy.
There was no actionable cyber espionage. Conspiracy of the type that was the rationale for having the investigation in the first place So nineteen months later, they indict stone and if read the indictment, which is about twenty pages long does allow. A heavy breathing that goes on for the first eighteen pages. Are so that's basically sound I collusion fields. Collusion. It's almost collusion, and then you fill up to the last page and its seven process crimes and its disburd. Brain tellin this this guy Randy Credit, go You know I'm going to kill your dog. Remember. Frankie pen tangibly, remember Watergate get out of it. It's it's that I mean he's either about bastard and ridiculous figure, but the point is it has the thing to do, no matter what you think of. It's got nothing to do with collusion with Russia and, in fact
the stone case. Actually, if you took it seriously, always disproved the notion that there could have been a conspiracy, because the whole thing that d the action in the stone case is he's grow being to try to find some kind of connection to Julian Assange, which, of course, you wouldn't have to do with there was it up and running Russia's, it's been. So what do you make of the president's apparent intervention in this its foolish for him to do it now. You all I have to say I was s by someone this morning is inappropriate for the president to do that, and that is a lot of freight to that word. So, constitutionally prosecution? Is an executive function in this country and wall? I think, in all executive powers, reposed in one official, the president and everybody who acts on it is the president's delicate. So in a sense shore, can the President constitutionally way in on prosecution cases, yes, shooting
No, it's it's! It's not only improve to do it in the sense that the legitimacy of the criminals. The system depends on the perception that things are being run by the rule of law rather than political choices about who gets who gets charged and what charges, but also from the president's perspective He, for example, wants this investigation done of the investigators right and it being done if that ever yields anything if it, like the present. His manipulating the Justice Department and the investigations. Gonna have no right and ill at ease. I don't look: it's gonna, look like a political tool of the trunk and you're not harm to the durum you're afraid to the John DOE, the John Dormant investigation, where he's trying to figure out whether or not a bomb justice department or the I'm administration behaved in
improper or an illegal fashion. In pursuing this question of Trump, the truck campaigns possible infiltration or by cooperation with the Russians I stages. Quick question for anti? How common is it for prosecutors to resign publicly like this? This is obviously field. The stories you know being picked up and made much ado about what let's become more common in the age of Trump, You know this is like Sally Yeats more too, and I think you know what happened here with respect, especially to the two of the four I think a while leaving the Justice Department entirely. They had, one foot out the door and were we're pretty much waiting to wrap up the Rajah stone case and they were going to leave anyhow. So it's kind of a it. It's kind of a freebie for them right. They go out in a blaze of Dore Glory, doing something never going to do anyway, which is leave the justice depart The other two, I think are some
these stepping back from this case being reassigned to one to Baltimore, rising out of the room where right where he was detailed from right little on the knows that his name is the linsky. By the way I mean literally, the man's name is linsky. That's weird. Anyway, so he's going back in someone else's going back, but so we have is trump tweets that the broader stone case seems to be a miscarriage of justice and then for five hours later. The word is that sensing guidelines are gonna, be change. Sentencing recommendations can be changed, and then there is the other weird part, which is that the person who was gonna be appointed,
to a senior job at the Treasury department. Who was the supervisor of the stone case so Jesse LEO Jesse Lou rife it. It was the united, states attorney for the District of Columbia at the end of last year. Of nominated hurt to taken under secretary job at the Treasury Department dealing with the terrorism and sanctions and that sort of stuff she was post to stay as the? U S attorney and told her replacement was, was named but she was also supposed to have a hearing. I believe today, as were speaking here, was supposed to be her confirmation hearing at the track, ray in it, explore the in the sense that we don't have an explanation for it yet, attorney General bar moved her out
January thirtieth and named, and acting U S attorney rather than have her finish her term into, and it may just be that he did that because she needed get prepared for her hearing. There's a lot going on in the DC. U S attorney office and you want to have an engaging was attorney guys someone that that bar trust has been a long time adviser to him. So it's very you know those are their unanswered questions, whether they really have anything to do with what we're talking about. Who knows accept that The timing, try pulled her nomination hours after these assistant you or these prosecutors resigned and so, of course, the public impression. It seems to me that that creates is that she's befall guy in this whole thing, but that has yet to be right so and then this course coming on the heels of thee.
Reassigning are signing of Alexander Yevgeny Vinland back to the Pentagon, which is, I think, wrongly, being referred to as a firing, because they they are not like out on the street. You know those with no salary and their shopping being fired with cause, but then, but then Trump saying that Alexandrovitch disciplined the Pentagon. I mean I'm laughing, but I mean you know. One thing I will say is that term these things happen where ever every time, I myself emotionally start to approach saying where I'm like you not have was a trump the whole way, but I like the policies I like what he did and Israel you know I like, so I like what happened with some money I was not. I was not support a supportive of removal. I think there's a lot of the region, people or grey, and all this, and so fine. You know we gotta move on and he's done. Why, then stuff happens, and I'm like off like can kill.
Can you just give me a day to breathe and not have to know? I mean you know then these you feel like played for a fool almost because it because unless you embrace this idea that he is you equally being mistreated and that he basically has to be in total warfare with anybody who ever cross. I did him because otherwise he'll be destroyed, and this is you know. This is that this is the war of our lives unless you're one of those people and what you're looking for some blessed relief and the idea that you know from his own perspective, good economy. He got heap, he survived, impeachment Dolly survive. The parades. A lot of money often did wasn't hurt in the polls and all of this and that grants are having a terrible time of it. They screwed up Iowa that you know that there is a huge bunch of confusion. The top of the ticket nor all of this and then
he just comes in like Godzilla villain Gambie, meets Godzilla steps on your hopes and dreams, and not only that then that each Tommy does that that of triggers its own little cycle, and then You have a whole set of values of those who will now defend the bad thing that he's that done instead, instead of the good stuff right end and then, of course, the the Democrats and liberals acting as though the Reichstag is on fire. I mean you know, win win, as Anti says it is only a matter of fact that the president has you know already to remove people from his employ form Whatever reason, unless you believed by the way- and you know- that hiring for a job confers lifetime employment and that you're not allowed to be. You know for people to be given that they keep people bar. You can't fire. Somebody like
sexual harass them and they complain to you or something like that. That's illegal these actions and by consequences. These are political actors, not just constitutional officers Jack Goldsmith who essentially said. Look concern now have embraced the view that the conservative reaction to Brok Obama intervening in the case of Hillary Clinton was overwrought and frankly, That is a hypocritical point of view. That's very good and establishes a precedent right, because precedent begets precedent, so the next guys gonna do right away that old sentiment. May I just say, though, that, because of I've heard this comparison before as well, what Rock Obama. Didn't Hillary Clinton case was eviscerate. The case such that there was no case what the justice D, has done here is chain a nine year prison, foundation to a four year prison recommendation. On the circumstances where the president would like to see the case disappear, but the just
Department is in doing that. So I get the comparison. But I just think that absence of of almost intervention had would have a prosecutor, I think so I certainly think the case was strong enough to prosecutor okay, so ebbed The Goldsmith pieces at the bulwark of this morning, so you should do you should do you should take a look. Let me just take a pause here to talk to everybody about expressively piano. There are tons of Vp Him providers out there. You probably heard of couple of them in some of you may even use the vpn before, but I like to do research on my sponsors and I only recommend brands to my listeners that I believe- and I can say with full confidence that accept. So ppm is the number one ppm on the market hears. Why Spress weekend, doesn't log your data, lots of really people freely peons make money by selling your data companies expressway pm, developing technology called trusted server. That makes it impossible,
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Slash commentary, visit, Express WP and our commentary to learn more Andy. Let's talk that the progressive prosecutor project, which I think is one of the most important pieces that we have certainly published in a long time. It may be that we have ever published in which you lay out the really startling. New development in american criminal justice, which is the deal, the bread and nation wide effort to get elected to office district attorney's, who are actively hostile to the prosecution of criminal offences. Almost unheard of thing. Obviously, people became This is not because they wanted to pursue Justice in now help people gray and solve crime problems and all this, but all
because the politically this was concerned, a fantastic stepping stone to future office to be able the voters and say you prosecuted this. Gay prosecuted that guy you through this many people in jail. You do this. You did that Thomas Dewey America, that Europe their tens Hundreds of thousands. We have, how many do how many DA's do. We have in the presidential race, clover char come on, come on common Harris was in there. You know like this. A real thing this year they were all busy saying I dont prosecute you that's part right, and that is where that's. Where there s a prosecutor project is the fulfilment of a certain type of left, liberal dream, so can you can you laid out for us a bit? Well? It was it was a real eye opener for me, and I actually think I follow the stuff closely until you know you take it. Look at this phenomenon, which is really a testament to the fact. There's nothing like Executive Power
If you are hostile to the idea of prosecution, If you were Congress or a lot, the state legislature you'd have to try to enact laws to cut back on it and be politically difficult to do, and you wouldn't be well to execute them. Judge. Can only do so much damage because judges such issues as they come up in litigation, but though the chief executive, criminal Justice Authority and jurisdiction decides what cases its possible for the police to do in effect, because it is up to the prosecutor. The prosecutor doesn't take the case, there's no point: no police begging the arrest and doing the most certain ports of their jobs. So this is in a sense. This is kind of an ingenious strata g by progressives, because historically these days, the attorney
actions most district attorney's, I think nationally. Virtually all of them are elected positions, the federal government there appointed positions and in most eight and municipalities, their elected positions. Are traditionally contests that draw their often. One candidate contests is often the case that, especially in one party government like We have a lot of cities that the only competition is the Inter party struggle. If there is an if there's any right of his errand here in New York City, there was a point at which there are five counties in in New York City and I think in four of them. The ten year, the average tenure of the day was twenty five year so
This is a job knowledge you gettin get elected to, but you sort of like you basically stay there practically for like yeah. I think the Bob Morgan thought I remember was the: U S attorney in the southern district of New York in Manhattan, where I used to work rubies old office for about ten years and was probably four times that The district attorney of Ratan counting here. So the thing is cause they're so little competition for these jobs. The campaigns tend to be at most five figure affairs and what you now have is this progressive network. Of really mega buck fund raising that is picking out jurisdictions where they would like to advance the movement. Which very much includes a kind of a racial ized theory about press
fusion and why we have it and why its oppressive etc, but their picking out he's jurisdictions and they are flawed. The zone money for their candidates, such that the Opposition can compete so they're, throwing hundreds of thousands, sometimes over a million dollars into races that fifty or sixty thousand dollars previously would have been of a fairly robust campaign war chest and what they are doing is getting there guys elected and they are rolling back prosecution in a way that they could never hope to do by litigation or by legislation. They do this according to the peace, by the use of Thee necessary thing that drives everybody crazy, when you, whenever there absorbs about this, which is the view prosecutors
discretion right right. So, as you say in the piece you couldn't possibly prosecute every crime that is committed, there's just there's not enough time. There aren't enough lawyers aren't enough, there's not enough court, I'm all of that. So prosecutors have to pick and choose. So what can I get to the genius hear the evil genius? If you're us, is what, if you chose not to prosecute crimes, not because they were insufficient to require the red to need the resources and resources have to be applied elsewhere. But because Eddie illogically opposed to the prosecution of those crimes or you you didn't you or you thought that the prosecution of crimes and was unfair based on racial disparity, any prosecutor can just choose on his own. Without a chat. There is no check except the voter right. Yeah
night to prosecutor crime, so suddenly crime right. The tension is that executives the state municipal level. All taken out, like the president takes unlike executive officials, take to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, and this is obviously intention with prosecutors discretion, because there are certain cases that you're not pursuing that you could pursue so you're, not executing the law. In those cases, your your exercising discretion not to prosecute and the thing that rationalizing attention is that your having individualised attention to cases so that each one, and on a case by case basis, you're waiting to see whether it merits prosecution, based on the unique characteristics of the offender and circumstances of the offence, but nothing prevent you from programme
adequately, saying I'm not going to do ex category of cases, I'm not gonna do cases that have why category of offender, at really I'd think does move as from some and you can rationalize that has to be so, which is prosecutor, aerial discretion, cause resources a finite too something where, instead, what you have is the executive is effectively overruling the law, as there are enacted by the people in the legislature but it's improvable in it fundamental way unless they serve Leslie. Telling, often wave a banner and talk about how wonderful they are date. You can't, nail somebody for an act of its like the sin of Omission incentive Commission? Yet but how do you prove the negative that that that that that these cases are not being prosecuted because the decision has been made not to prosecute them and
even if you do prove that the right the only residence is either of some form of impede some form of the only real sanctions to get voted out at the next election right, if you're not impede each day I mean in theory, look they could cut your budget, but if you're prosecuting that's really not of cigarettes. None is big enough. So this is big, because I mean what will go into a couple of cases, but the two I think the leading Is that you talk about in the peace? Are the day Philadelphia wary crasser and then vote most. Most importantly, most most suggestively somebody who is now the DNA of San Francisco. Chess Aberdeen is quite a quite the story. So do you want tell anybody about Russia will just The grew up, without his parents being around his natural parents, that is because
say it one day when he was one they left. With a sitter while they went over and did the Brinks High Sea is the young, the son of a king people, Dean and drawing up like under the name of the area of the But anyway he's the Father is doing a life sentence that this brings heist and nineteen. Eighty one was a faint cooperation between the Black Liberation Army in the weather underground, where to police officer, Ozanna Security Guard David Gilbert they haven. T Oberon area were were murdered, David a life sentence he still serving in upstate New York, Cathy Pooh Dean, Sir about twenty five years, and naturally after she got out
she was hired by Columbia, university to run their criminal justice clinic and now specialised joining in had me, but he stepped parents were foster, parents Chess Aberdeen who are below and burgundy indoor reindeer and who are also equally famous some, whether underground car and in fact, bill airs did a lot of work, with Chavez in as well, which plays the trail for chess, ought to go to the Venice actually work for the show as route regime as a translator and sort of a think tank guy policy, adviser and Belarus. I'm sure again, just to just a jolt. The memories of people with Belarus is a game was a was a member of the weather underground, whose prosecution was bungled, so he was not in the end, might victim of a crime.
Ended up as a professor of education at the University of Illinois, Chicago Circle and served and was friendly with one Barrack Hussein Obama. Worse was, I think, ill falsely accused or whatever of writing dreams from my father Obama's book, because in fact, he's, a terrible writer bill airs and then some think he deserves the credit for it, but they served on boards. They were friendly and on September, eleven two thousand and one the new Our times published this fawning piece about, bill airs and his love wonderful life. After all that it was said and done, a peace that was then memory hold since at eight Thirty five that morning the sorts of people that bill airs and his friends actually defended flew planes into buildings and killed. Three thousand
such ass? A is the son of terrorists, the foster son of domestic terrorists and is now the dust. Journey of set not now sins of the father not visited upon the children, but he did yes work for a forty one the worst governments and of the twentieth century yeah and twenty four, and the agenda in San Francisco is essentially to roll back pay situation or, as I guess they would put it find turn active means, besides putting people in cages to address criminal conduct, so that, you know, one of the four I mentioned at the beginning of the peace one of them. Four things he was turning to do upon taking office was to begin an immigration unit which would be a fairly common thing in a persecutors office, accept that his immigration unit is going to specialise on investigations of the federal.
Immigration authorities and the local authorities- cooperate with them in order to pursue try to brush them back from pursuing cases against on Doc, did the aliens in San Francisco so I do I want to digress briefly and get right back to your piece. But since we ve been talking about it, I'm gonna get your immediate reaction on this. Jesse Lou has resigned. What do you make of that war? I don't think relational. Don't you think taste I think she just didn't have much of a future right. She she was. Moved out of the treasury. Treasury? While she was gonna, but she was not going to have her hearing today, which me she was not gonna get the job that she was but also suggests the portfolio that she was managing, wasn't so onerous that she had to remain in post, oh yeah. No, I mean she had to resign and resign from what even she was. She was no longer, U S attorney and she wasn't. She has a treasure undersecretary. She was
the treasure chamber secretary should answer she wasn't. She was not confirm she was supposed to have her nomination area today revenue. So there was that she was in. She was some as a total limbo, so she was never going to escape. I don't you know it's not like Trump said that it was pulling her nomination, but had a plan b for her clearly I mean, but enough to to here, one, the ogre, wedged Falcon peace, because I think it said constant that rat ideas end up hurting those they report to help the most hurt, most those they would help. You put on your piece. The problem without prosecuting all these crimes in the name of some racial as version of social justice, is that crime. Is this overwhelmingly disproportionately high in in
de the neighborhoods at that that the that these people are purporting to represent yeah? So that's right and it actually connects up. I think to the conversation we had about politics earlier, because we we now talk about how all these former prosecutors of walking away from their record, but in ninety. Ninety four, for example, when the big Federal Crime ACT was enacted, Bill Clinton has said again and again that it the congressional black caucus, with most of it, at least that lobbied him to pass that part of the reason that that that there was some much momentum for that and that people want to be associated with it back then, is because the neighborhoods but being riven by gang crime and cracked trafficking were black in his speech, neighborhoods in you know this is an area, and this is now we are now with my Bloomberg. Rising in the polls
the knives are out for below them. Anti Bloomberg stuff is now active, What The things is a speech has surfaced in which Bloomberg, Sir, in twenty fifteen. You know should you have to put cops? in minority neighbour? It's that's where the crime is and now basically ideas. You can't say that I'm also house by air. You wildly higher approval ratings among african american voters for now right lumber at the time of the day at the height of the rabbit over the debate, but I mean so. This is after he left the mayoralty him when he was asked about this. He said you know we flooded minority neighborhoods with with with police officers, because that's where the crime- it that's, how you do it at that
the real question about the way in which these matters are now perceived, at least by activists and in these communities, the The central problem is law enforcement, and saving lives, saving people, the neighborhood from crime and all of that, I don't know this is an interesting political moment in the Democratic Party will Bloomberg apart. Will Bloomberg now Walker apologizing for having said that he's proud He would have wished. He could have put more cops into into neighborhoods, whereby in out that, where they have, majority minority population so as to lower the crime rating further Yet, while he's already doing that right and he's being confronted? Finally, with some tough questions, that and he's gonna need better answers, because I saw an interview either
say yesterday or the day before, where he was confronted with with some of these statements that he had made about stopping frisk, and The answer was well. That was five years ago. I don't that's not gonna do it, but there are two different things here. So stop and first is a policy that was enacted by the by the and why p b, you know to serve to seize, hands off the street, nor that end and There is an argument to man, I think there's. Married to it now, given what we know about the crime rate that It had paid off enormous dividends, but that, but that the, dividends it paid off. The less effective it was gonna, be because you actually work. He walked the streets and there wasn't an infinite number of people that you were gonna need to get off the streets, and so they needed to do more stop and for us to find more weapons because They had already arrested a lot of people whom they had
wept in that, and so maybe it was losing its salience e aside for and therefore you know the The onerous nurse on minority populations wasn't worth wasn't worth the controversy, because the result word no longer necessary, that's different from saying pops to be disproportionately minority neighborhoods, because that's where the crime is because that's they are. The crime is a point that you make at the very beginning of your peace who is most affected by crime. Poor people, where terrorist crime, most most done. Oddly enough people don't go, rich neighbourhoods and try to you now commit burglaries, announced and mud people on the streets and still money still from there from stores there. They do it close. The home and therefore that's where you that's, where the cops need to be well, that the reason that we know that offence behaviour is disproportionate over different demographics of the population is D.
Is the untold part of the story or the unmentioned, poorly story that aim just mention which is that crimes have victims victims. For crimes. We know who is victimized by crime That's a we know crime occur so, the idea that the phenomenon of high crime rates traceable to to certain demographic so the population is a fund police attention, rather than an outgrowth of the fact that people report being victimized by crime is the biggest fallacy that we're doing So I got the impression and was only that's a correct me if I'm wrong from your peace, that you believed the first step back went too far. Its criminal justice reform Pass by Republican, signed by republican President, am I wrong, and if, if I'm not to what extent, no, I think the first Step ACT is a terrible piece of legislation. I I think
there are certainly some tinkering that could be done with now remember. With this we're only talk about the federal penal go right. You could see we make the argument, which is a tiny right. Yes, as a percentage also all amber I'm the federal system is, is you know minute a minuscule? On the other hand, what they do is very influential for the for the rest of the country, so I there's a lot to be said for the idea that some mandatory minimums are too high. But that doesn't mean. The idea of mandatory minimums is a bad idea, because it with when you mandatory minimums, which means as a minimum jail sentence. That must be sir for particular crime. That's because the public, through it, representatives in the legislature decides what,
a crime is worth in the way of incarceration rather than having a judge. Do it because judges attitudes about this tend to be out of the mainstream of of what the population thanks. So I think that you deal with mandatory minimum without getting rid of them. You could deal with overly at here penalties. If over time, you do you come to the conclusion like we did, with the difference between crack cocaine and cocaine powder hydrochloride, those that proportion without a wax, and now it's less out of work than it was before. What I object to and what these first step back completely closes its eyes, too is its built on a fantasy that our prisons, are teeming with non violent, first offenders or low affair, when the reality of the system is that you have a lot of fact, pleading it's not just we don't just have crime pleading. Now we have fact waiting. So we talk about the sentencing guidelines before if you
an offence, we're gonna use that triggers certain statutes and it also triggers enhancements under sentencing guidelines. What prosecutors and defence lawyers end up doing is a brushing those facts out of the equation like they didn't happen, so you have a fictional version of the offence. So the you end up having people who were violent. Offenders those violent factors are basically purged from the narrative of the offence as if they didn't happen, and then they go into prison because their case has been played down. They are actually quite violent offenders, but their their cases have been pledged down so that they end up less crime, they ve already gotten the benefit when they go, went to prison of having a very serious crime, reduce down to something for less serious and now we're talking about a springing, those people onto the street,
without any thought to what do what the consequence of that is, and I just think it's it's very foolish to to operate the whole legislative programme, on a fiction that we have this problem in our presence. If we have to point to me, in people in prison in the United States in a country, three hundred and thirty million, to call that mass incarceration, I think, is ridiculous. I think finally, the peace. Delves into the the horror that is now going on in New York, city or New York state with the passage of bill or form, which is also The agenda of this are the De Carson role system where now a violent, if ur bo polonius offenders are being in a released with. A bail on the grounds that somehow bail, is a financial system that favours the
wealthy, and so it's not fair cash bail was not a fair system and in a week These cases now over and over there's a new one on the front page of the paper today, where, where repeat, offenders are let go and then they commit crimes. The street and obviously the of the Bell system exists. Not have not told people in jail, because their violent but two since that there be consequences. If you believe, someone than their own we're cognizance or you know with with the bail the money, is there to make sure they don't flee and too skin in the game, so the date they keep their noses clean until they until they actually have to come back to come back to court. That's why it exists. That's why they're you can borrow money to get too to to get bail right. That's what bail bondsman are for. Poor people can use them
system if they have any kind of collateral Nothing like that and now we're we're basically a wash in this, and then this other fact which stop banal jazzy here, but that the district attorney's offices in in in New York City. Are now a wash in new rights relations that arm requiring them to provide materials to defence lawyers that are making the prosecutor king prosecutions themselves, all but impossible I am raising this is now not to progressive prosecutor. This is some progress. This is legislation that was passed but on through progressive legislators, that is, making the wives of prosecutor I do want to prosecute crimes unbelievably difficult. All of a sudden, the ancient and share to a concrete example, probably makes the
point- and I probably should have done this in the peace, but. Let's say you have a gang drug crime right for a fairly significant first street level. Significant amount of of narcotics would say a kilogram of cocoa The new rules require the prosecutor to make discovery within. I think it's fifteen days of the arrest very frequently. It will be the ace that, because this so much narcotics trafficking the ferment lab, will not have been able to complete its analysis within that window of time, even if you were to get that done, but the active, providing the discovery tat. To tell the different fence who the witnesses are. So
if you have a violent gang case- and you have to give the witnesses over, you know rapidly before you can take all the steps that you need to take to be able to protect people that creates obviously a whole others the problems right anyway. So the progressive prosecutor project. It is up right now on commentary magazine that come variant peace, we haven't even gotten into who's, paying the poos whose it was paying for this, which is five letter, five letter, panoramic name that will put that- will be familiar to many people who are distressed by leftist activism, and an end. Various other of these, The usual suspects adjoining joining with with him in his foundation. Andy
Thank you so much for for being with us, we lost once again we lost Christine somewhere in the middle here due to bad Skype connections, and for so for her for a principled in four nor Rossman. I've jump on words, keep the animal.
Transcript generated on 2020-02-25.