Welcome to the Commentary magazine daily Progress today is Monday doom. First, twenty twenty, I'm John Paul words. The editor of it's very magazine with me, as always, senior editor, a green wild high Abe. I jump. Associate at a real Rossman high Noah. Our and from Washington senior writer Christine Rosen, who was directly involved in last night's right:

ring and looting Christine you wanna tell us what happened to you and your sons and everything showing. Nor does it not as a pirate. Spent and the writing on voting, I what yeah? No, I mean, I think what would happen to me last. I happened to lots of people all over the DC, which had a really really long. In rough night, the mayor had issued a curfew. Pretty lately A four eleven p m, which made no sense because the sun, as soon as the sunset is when trouble started the PD fairly p. Oh protests have been going on around White House became a lot more like writing than and destructive than than they had been early in the day when the sun went down, and so I live in Georgia, which, according to Twitter, is, is full of rich entitled white lips,

Also, I am none I and the White I'm way, but other than that I have not any of the rest of the things we had at ten thirty by half an hour before curfew, several cars pulled up on our streets, large groups of men, got out there with hoods in masks and and started heading towards Wisconsin Avenue, which is a main commercial thoroughfare about a block from my house, how many? How many cars? First two cars about Fort for five people came out of each of those cars and a third car came up in a fourth around the corner so? Basically, there obviously were coordinated groups of p all going around the city to coordinating looting what happened very quickly thereafter is even more joining on foot. You know down are running down. Our street friend of mine, who is son, is a cop texted. Him he's like then this is going on around the city. The the we heard sirens.

Pretty soon thereafter there also gunshots. It turns out that the police found them looting. These CBS around the corner and shots were fired its it. We're still not exactly, certainly sounds like by some of the looters, not by the cops. Also man was who they came across walking down the street and they be pretty severely there is looting and writing all up and down Wisconsin and End street. Someone asked this morning which businesses rooted in the response was, which ones warrant some had been boarded up beforehand. And so you know helicopters, police presence still looting going on throughout the night. In fact, I was checking in with them is this morning. Lot of them were fined people on their outdoor nest. Cameras in their home surveillance cameras. Up until two and three in the morning they were looting of of stores and upper northwest. This is miles from them where the protests were actually happening again with groups that were clearly coordinating while the key,

swear busy, downtown dealing with protesters to just rob and great mayhem, and it was it was in parts of the city word. There had not been any protest and you know kudos to the cops who came very quickly and exquisite. Couldn't many these instances and I will say this, it is. I still I still support the peaceful protestors in what they're doing. Happened last night in this city and in a lot of other cities, though, has starting to already be excused by people who say well. What do you expect their angry? They have to express their anger. That's ridiculous is lawlessness. There is no excuse for it, and and when this happens and people say things I was just property, your insured or oh, you know these are rich people who can recover. Even if all of that is true, the case of a lot of these businesses owners, who, I know it's not true- they don't have insurance to protect against civil unrest which right is, but even if it as true what they have just wandered

A lot of us is the kind of a good will and and and the idea that it's good to make people fearful and angry at the same time and then say well now, you know how we feel this is not the way to deal with this situation. So I'm pretty annoyed with some of the people talking had types and media types, hoo, hoo, sort of shrug trunk. This off, as noble deal it's terrifying is terrifying when you're trying to protect her kids and you have to move them to the bedroom in the back of the house, because their gunshots being fired, and yes there, people in this country who lived under those conditions daily. I understand that. But that is not what we as a country should one for anyone, So I it was a really is a terrifying experience, we're all safe, we feel pretty pretty lucky armed with our homes were not damage were very concerned about. What happens when the sun goes down again tonight, and I do think that that I have heard Georgetown where I live? Is definitely, the very wealthy neighbourhood, although now

everyone who lives here, wealthy and not other homes or mansions byword says on Twitter. I it is very politically role, and I have never seen so many people talk about wanting to own a gun ass. I have spent the last twenty four hours so there is definitely a mood shift in this town and John. I know you have relatives in in DC as well, who also saw some of the looting and rioting there Robbie CBS, they did their robbing stores the rubbing banks, the rubbing clothing stores, there's we walked around the morning, lotta property damage in the store a lot of stuff. You find on side streets a lot of merely sir. Really abandoned naked pannikins, where they ripped the amount of clothing stores and took what's on himself, not great seen here, and I really hope for everyone sake that that tonight is much more peaceful. Story that I have from my niece who lives. About a mile up, maybe a mile and a half up from where Christina.

Other on an entirely residential avenue, with large apartment buildings and some houses and and a couple of houses of worship. She was out walking her dog for the we know evening walk and she saw two gangs of people converge, one basically from the north than one from the sat or one from the east and one for it's impossible to tell Geography in Washington DC, one from up and one from down, let's say, and they kind of converged and then formed into out of a single mob and then started to move up from her street two Wisconsin Avenue the same street, That Christine lives off but again about a mile and a half further up and

she said it was terrifying beyond belief, and she now she was. There was no way for her to go or high because she was out walking her dog. And so that that that was heard. That was her tail from from last night, I am reminded, but by all of this, of an event that was not triggered by you know a an incident like the killing of George Floyd, but total happenstance, which was the New York City, lock out of nineteen. Seventy seven on July, sixteenth and I happen To be in at home, I was sixteen years old. I happened to be at home that night with my mother. My father was elsewhere and me

sisters were elsewhere. So it's just me and my mother, she got trapped in the basement because the power went out around nine o clock go down and to help them find her and forget away. To get her upstairs and then looting started. This is on a hundred and fifty broadway on the on the upper West side, and I ended up standing in front of our building, which was newly Co. Op Co opt with ten or fifteen men. From the building with baseball bat to keep the key Just stand there on guard to keep people from coming up the block and also to protect the businesses in in the building and as we stood there, and I was there until about two o clock in the morning, you couldn't see anything unless a car like less of a car drove up and that, therefore the headlights could could

luminary what was going on, but the din was Unbelievable there were hundreds of people across the street and down street Smashing windows screaming taking things There was a liquor store on the corner that got destroy. There was a met food on the corner that got destroyed Oddly enough, the only business that seem to be lost Lee Unmolested was a level always store a little in jewelry store called me sin that probably had the most expensive goods on the block, but that did not look particularly appealing to the looters anyway. So there were no cops. There was no, not nothing happened to interfere, intrude on this and then in the morning, when all the style and the sun. The sun came up took a walk down, Broadway with a family friend from behind

Britain fifty eighty a street and it was like Dresden? I mean it was it was total wanton destruction. Now again. This was not part of a. This is not a looting events that that piggy back off a political, social, moral protest. It was entirely a situation, a thing, but after it happened the reason I'm tongue, but this is an after it happen. The a cognitive shanty in New York attempted to frame what had happened. This billion dollars worth of damage done, solely by leading in the city. That's about five billion dollars in print and current dollars. In one night in like seven hours as an expression of despair, ah high teenage unemployment. All of that that that there was a hunger to excuse,

the event, and I'm not sure why, except that every. We always wants to make political hay and particularly, if you believe, America's an unjust society. Wanna use things to make can form, but also because, you're, seeing something- and we ve been seeing something over the last couple of days that is so heart rending and depressing and emotionally destructive of any understanding of the social fabric. That, aside from all the political reasons, people might wanna be using this They would also like to explain it away and say that you know were not looking at is huge, kind at its most barbaric and that this is a possible. William every society at any moment at any time, which I think is the fundamental conservative understanding of of

of human kind, as it happens that were not in a perfected will beings we are, in fact you know sinful and have a lot of evil. When I send an and push about and then the wrong way. The right move in the wrong moment and anybody can become a monster and that's what we're seeing and it's just horrible abs you ve been serve like I've got. Why does like come in on this? First of all, is that why? of the many maddening things about what's been happening. Is why Achieving the media push these completely contradict narratives on this point on the one hand, there is massive effort. Explain away as justified rage all the bee violence on that's going on. At the very same time, the very same voices in the media sake. Well, that's

who is doing the violence anyway. This is this is the result of a small group of people who have infiltrated and hijacked the otherwise peaceful protests. To do that, violence got any idea enjoying event will switch to a bunch of young african american kids. Alluding store rights of this. This is actually important point because it true that in DC, we ve seen lots of different kinds of destructiveness. Some of that I do think are small groups of I mean some people submits its anti father a deafening some organized groups of people who are not african american and not protesters corner and causing trouble, in fact, is wonderful. Video of some very peace a black lives matters protesters. Seeing one of these guys trying to break up some rocks on a sidewalk to throw it cops, ends up. They literally he'd take him and he deliver him right over the cops you like he's not with us, and we was. It was actually nice to see that, however, so in my neighborhood at least- and I you know- I can confirm, with eight bird's eye view

because I watch it out but all night, it was entirely african Americans, looting, they're, probably were some non african Americans among the groups that were in there, but everyone I saw everyone my neighbours are reporting was the same ethnic group. What does that mean? It only means we're in a city that has a large american population is not. This is now not making a statement about criminality here, except to say, if I'm being asked as a white person in the looked in the legitimate way to be responsible and thoughtful and think about my privilege and talk about police, injustice, which I am being asked to do, and I think I should do in the wake of what happened. I also think the african american community in my city needs to speak to that, because, if I'm being asked to take collective responsibility, as I should be entered into question my own beliefs and privileges. I do think that there is a similar conversation that needs be happening there and so that I

for a lot of people in the city, which has always been very racially divided and a box in some ways. That's out there, some frustration there. Because I ve seen it on my local is served this morning where and he's a first generation american of hispanic origin. Who who risk putting on what he was seeing and sort of warning friends and saying moral turn organised to help the shop owners clean up, use the word thug and was just called out by by some a couple of angry white. Ladies, you can't say that that's racists and he really schooled that he did. He said no, I guess I'm gonna say that tonight, because this is behaviour I'm describing it's not race and we have seen thuggish behaviour by people of many different colors in this country in the last few days and that's what I think we all need to be able to say and in what I hope will stop so If you are, you have been collecting the timeline or the anecdote, Sir, how you

describe it, you want to serve, go I'll I'll catch up a little bit on and it will remain the main events since we last been convened. So it's been six nights so far of increasingly violent protests and to urge slowed down. Please does any Minneapolis. On Friday after we got off the podcast actually officer, Derek Chopin was was taken, its police custody, in charge third bring murder and secondary manslaughter which, as we know, now slowed nothing because the protests really picked up over the weekend. Hundreds of demonstrators in Atlanta on Friday night around Centennial Olympic Park they attack the CNN buildings versus surreal moment of watching CNN talk about the attack on CNN

serve make some of the kind of excuses we were just talking about. I'm for the very people who were attacking CNN headquarters also on Friday, and I was the beginning of the massive crowds at the White House- were protesters stood face to face with police and secret service, taunting them ripping barricades for from the from the from their hands secret service had to put the by NASA, down to the president in his family to a bunker under underground bugger under the White House. Also, on Friday, New York picked up. All five burrows in in Brooklyn Molotov cocktails were thrown in white p d vehicles. Three people were arrested for this, including- and this is in this- is tat- met. The mix of people involved a white woman from Upstate New York Young, and

lawyers varying ethnicities forwarded, saw a woman from abstain. York into lawyers were arrested for forthcoming Molotov cocktails Nypd. These vehicles on Saturday in all continued large and small cities in Pittsburgh, now. There's an arrest warrant out for a twenty year old who cops, they started rights. They are. He appears in pictures decked out with an anti fa logo on his clothes this clause mask on his mask, rose mass, with an embassy the math. I remember it throws up

it's either a massacre, a turtleneck, I other no were both. Yet them could have combination mass turtleneck run so with it is it's all mixed bag everywhere really is. In Dallas protesters came out at City Hall, cops responded with with tear gas. There, often California Oakland San Francisco, Santa Monica, you name it lines of of burned, destroyed, defaced these cars on the street, kept protests kept going in Philadelphia, mass looting and arson, then answer on Saturday. We should mention so

General Bill BAR came out and said the protests were being driven by far left extremists. This got some push back in the media. I remember it right after commentator saying well, there's also some intelligence. That indicates that it's some far right elements as well would but are only chose to mention the far left yesterday trumped to Edith did the one thing you did he treated at that to you designating Antigua domestic terror organization. It's it's entirely unclear how that works as we leave only designated foreign terrorist groups and in the U S and in all five people have been killed in this. I'm five innocent people since the initial horror in Indianapolis Detroit Oakland Chicago Saint Louis, in Dallas. Theirs,

Horrible footage that I don't recommend anyone watch where a man looks have been beaten with an inches of his life, and he is now in critical condition. On that story by the waves interesting that story we originally told at that guy was a shopkeeper who had been beaten to death. It turns out. He apparently was brand it was somebody who had come to defend debt to attack the attackers and had a machete and was threat. Remember the machete, and so they they beat him with a stab in UK. It's on watchful, but it's not what we it's not what it was originally said too. You shall honors in Rochester New York in Syria, small woman who is beaten with the two by four by US failure, the eminently horrifying that that's been on video in that any they were, they came out of their shop. They beat up the manner than they beat this. This tiny woman's gonna buy more than five feet tall with the two by four

did they were walking away that that footings even more because they were walking away and then decided they just couldn't leave her there almost like they couldn't leave their because she would I and apply them or something so they took a two by foreign faster over the head with and I dont know what her or her husband or the other the person conditions are. If oh yeah, the updates on their condition. And also when I did so and protests from spreading to London. Berlin in Toronto may take that route for what it's worth right. So The footage from Philadelphia, I thought was the most jarring, because there was this one shot somewhere. It sure, where of a line of police cars that had all been trashed, had it somehow up lined up kind of it as a kind of Splay, almost like a junk yard.

And then you saw these thoughts you know sort of dancing around these cars and kind of experimenting with how to destroy them. Pick up a garbage can see what happens if you throw it at the window, jump up in that region to the trunk, pulled the trunk open and then like take a hat. Take the verbal approve vast from the trunk. Like it was. It was a remarkable kind of display of what you would imagine would happen. You know in some way disappear after the zombies had left. Then you just some went around and took whatever you could take, or something no are you had it interesting observation by but which I think is is is is both could be easily misunderstood, but, as it is, a key point infringes never

be easily. My services are kind of denial of the seriousness of what we're seeing, but that my opened up to throw clearing paragraphs in order to S evade that could take, that is being made, professionally obtuse. I may we have. This country has been pushed inside and most of these cities. People have been pushed inside for months and, we ve all been saying there. We're gonna be bad consequences from this, and I'm not saying that the bag consequences from this didn't result from the horrible behaviour of of of the police and media boys, but that this is some kind of when we, Well, when we were saying like the lock down is sustainable. I don't think that we thought that that meant that it would. It would conclude with six days of riots, and hundreds of millions of dollars of pride

damn it I know means, but I definitely entertained that idea early on in this thing, and I wish I had the strength of my convictions of the times I did mention, and even on this podcast and and was terrified by the even the prospect of my own projection, but there was not a foreseeable that this would Dorothy civil unrest as a result of this, and I think that's a lot of what you're saying. First of all, the data, it suggests that the people who are engaged in this sort of violent unrest are likely to be over represented by people who report pandemic. Financial hardships, fifty seven percent of African Americans, forty two percent of Hispanics forty percent of people making under forty thousand per year and age, eighteen to twenty nine, thirty nine percent. We told those people for two months that you can't work. You must be indolent, we told them that you cannot have pro. Contact with your elders, who might be moderating influence. We will At them only to languish in the warm weather outside drinking alcohol

and commiserating with their peers about the injustices that had been visited upon them by the professional elites for whom these hardships are purely academic. What did we expect and beyond that UNESCO? This is AIDS. It's not it's not a theory of everything, because in places like LOS Angeles and Miami, there's no distinction to the character. The riots, even though they ve pursued very different, locked out strategies, thirds, there's no unifying. The period of the cause for this riot, but a surly is exacerbated by the fact that we have decided to forego just about every social stigma that we imposed on the public. In the wake of this pandemic overnight, the exhortations from public officials admonishing people for going to pull parties in from going to the beach paraded in it. The enforcers of that stigma suddenly switch their imperative to the virtue of demonstrating against racial, systemic, racial abuses and police violence,

and so it became a socially acceptable way to evade on social distancing guidelines. Walked down measures and that, in my view, a partly lanes why you're seeing it across the. Western world it doesn't make? a lot of sense to see these kind of. I know the people who want to have them. She's further in other than self Conception, flattered Billy. But it's totally in purely ideological sympathy across the planet with the plight of the protesters, but it makes less sense than the more logical explanation that this is again a socially acceptable way to evade lockdown and not have anybody come down? for, as you said in your various do Posten, then your posted, a John they. These protesters understand the game.

They understand the language that is being spoken to defend their actions and excuse the reactions any feet quarters in part, because the rover educated themselves right freed up in others. The thing that people who are horrified by you know the violence and the looting, r, r, r R. I need to do is separate out the looters and the violent from the. U meaningful. Serious political protest against the the injustice, sir, the police and justice and that is a given and I'm wondering how much of a given it really ought to be, which is to say that every time not at whatever every time,

in this country, when there have been terrible moments of racial confrontation of some sort around and there is a moment of deep up up a political protest dating back more than half a century these, Events inevitably devolve seem inevitably to devolve the violence and looting I as fifty two years ago, it was the riots after the assessed Mr Martin Luther King Jr, which in in in Washington D c- at least led to the destruction of The entire neighbourhood that took forty years to recover, itself. The eighth street northeast corridor, which was the commercial heart of african American DC was destroyed and was a sham

with itself for decades, because No one wanted to go back and reopen, and none of those businesses there was no such thing as insurance, then practically, and nobody will to go back and none of them one internet for one second, to say that that is actually a very important reminder of should be for people who I was passing around it. I was raging that tweet itself. Surveys, but Amanda Mall, whose writer for the Atlantic treated something on a shingly obtuse. And she was saying: oh riots are at aren't a choice are a choice that are made by those in power, not the people who participate in them. So if you build society that exhaust and abuses, people and privileges capital over human life- I'm not each other imaginary, and she puts the word civil and scare courts civil options. You expect people to exercise, but what struck me about that was exactly what you said: John Privileges, capital over human life. This is not a dichotomy. The people in that corridor, in that part of DC needed cat

at all to rebuild and it did not come, and it wasn't it. There are a lot of reasons why? But this is going to happen throughout this country where these neighborhoods are destroyed. It's not as if you know protecting a privately owned business is, is a choice. You means you do not support african Americans who are fine against police brutality? That's not the choice on hand here, but I think far too many eunuch, especially elite commentators, like people who write you know like Amanda Mall, think that that's that that's the truth, that's out the choice is both air, you know it's an individual's should still be held responsible for their behaviour. It's all It's also an abstraction, it's an effort to take real world events and make them abstract rather than real. That is say: okay, you know what, if you're, going to, if you're, going to advocate or say that violence? Is you necessary or or organic to an event like this because of the problems of privilege in capital over

people, then you have to say well, ok, so there's all this destruction has happened. Now cares what I'm going to do that to how do you leave out the problem? Afterward? That's not! What's going on it's a kind of it as a it is an interesting human impulse that therapy who revel in the violence and destruction. You know it's like the air is a species of that. That's been annoying me on foreign policy. Writers are places like the Washington Post, secondary to authors of the post, who decided the hip trope now to try to cover these events, as he would cover them if they were occurring in Somalia. So you write about The country as though this empty embattled regime is facing an existential threat from the underprivileged masses whom they have delayed, distanced enfranchise for years and the regime faces now a choice between collapsing ascending to build new water and justice,

noxious nonsense that- and these are ostensibly foreign policy writers who are present committing themselves to ignore how protest actually are covered in western countries. I mean in order to establish that set of this the set of guidelines that give you permission structure to write that sort of thing you have to pretend that the entire country, France, doesn't exist and hasn't had never experience violent riots and has never been covered in the press, because that's not the tone that has struck in stable western democracies that experience is kind of, and asked. I didn't do that because their foreign policy writers- and they do know that well like come. Susan Glasser of the new Yorker. On Friday friar Saturday, Lee Nypd common dear in Brooklyn, near the Barkley Centre, which is where the the the nets, basketball and is basically it's the mob, Madison Square Garden of Brooklyn

and there was riding and looting of going on around there and a massive police present showed up and they commandeered some New York City buses to put people that they had arrested and zip tied in a two handcuff to book them and you take them. I guess somebody Brooklyn, because there were so many of the yoke is there were hundreds of them and where were they gonna put them because they don't? You know Patty wagons, don't we exist anywhere. You want to get you know, so they common these buses and then someone said I've never seen anything like this before commandeer buses to do blah blah blah will first of all we have seen before, but now that not, though, might Susan Glass, New Yorker, said I've seen it before in Russia, because she had been.

She and her husband, Peter Baker had been the New York Times and wash impose correspondence In Russia, as Putin was, you know taking charge in in Russia, so there is a giant outbreak, social disorder and criminality in Brooklyn, overwhelmed than your pity am I pity the best police force in America, the most the best trained the largest. The most serious, the most practically successful. Comes up with a relatively inventive way to find a way to how's the people that it's, a rat not less leaving them standing on the street or forcing them to get out why on their stomachs or whatever, This is then likened to Putin's authoritarian Russia, as though is what the cops wanted, there is also another interesting thing about what's going on in terms of the way in which people are talking about, the police, who are being forced, had been forced over the weekend to confirm

these riots and rioters, and things that you think they want to be there in the cops want to be on the streets with larger mobs of people who seem to have gone insane and they know that every decision that they make their someone with a cell phone cat whatever it is, you think they want either Wanna, be home on their off day, watching huge part of the effort on the part of the worst elements in the protest is devoted toward trying to get the cops to hit them with the club to write to tackle them to grab them. To talk to you know I mean that that is what they're there. They are trying to trigger them into that right, and you know so. Yes, it appears that there is a sickness at the heart of the Minneapolis Police Department. And yes, if you extrapolate from individual events in individual cities that

and seem to happen disproportionate, we at least really and dispassionately, two black men. You can say that there is a problem with policing in the black immunity, but there are ten thousand police departments in the United States, a teen thousand of them, and in the events happened in various cities, but not all of them, and this notion every cop in America is now show them of the app was or as a potential chauvelin or should be treated or Brazil, to be show them and that there are people who are trying to turn them into show them, and this is something that the people who would call the police, if I think I think Charlie Cook, said this

In our view, Pike asked if somebody next door to them played a loudspeaker at their pool too loud. You have no compunction about calling the police to say, there's a there's, a noise violation that is disturbing their afternoon cool party, but then say well I mean the police are just terrible and we have to do something about the police, like that's, also a form of the form of privilege that that is a task that that attaches to this notion that forcing police back into their police cars forever and doing what was called Niven when policing so that their crime rave can spike in all of that whose most protect from that who benefit from across who'll who will not benefit but who will not, who will be least injured by crime spike and by the stuff. It's the people who airily talk about how now they really now they really are confronting their own wife

privilege, but they don't really think that confronting their own. My privilege, they want white, cops to be punished, working class people who we empower to protect us. They want them to be punished for the behaviour of a bad few, and there are two things that we should note here. There several stories that people are posted on line that have made the rounds showing cops and protestors you to their infant Michigan, the chief of the sheriff, I think that you know asked What can we do and they said March with Us- and they did they peacefully march together and there wasn't a lot of violence and recklessness on either side, and we have seen you're in Miami. There were sorry said that there are these examples of just what you're saying where the cops are short of saying they are play. This is what this isn't. What they want. An and most cops are not violent. Sociopaths

There are violent, such a peasant, every profession. I do think where the the black lives matter argument is extremely compelling is, and we ve talked about this before in the pot gas, because we could police, so much more authority and power over other human beings lies. We do have to hold them to a standard that is, that is quite high and that's what this is about and should continue to be about. I get I've been getting a little frustrated lately with that. The weird sir statistic abstractions again you're saying earlier, join but the obstruction of the statistical arguments, the percentages of view, no black people's interactions with, ops compared to the percentage they on the population. Ok, that's a discussion we should have. We should also discussion about violent crime rates in this country and the percentage of people of various races who commit them. If you, Wanna go down that path then go down that path fully. There are, but this is an extremely complicated issue and I think what we are seeing with love the protest. Is it

if you're, if you, if you want action immediately, it's gotta be simplified right. So what I've seen in the DC process, in particular, is for every person whose, like chicken firecrackers at at the the secret service and the cops guard, the White House. You also have fellow protesters going knock it off. Like there- and there really is we among the protesters. There's that there's an a dispute. Not about how violent it should be, but I think a lot of the mega funds and mouthpieces sending out their so called message tend to err on the side of your justifying violence, rather than all the many protesters you're like, let's just see Anti, because the people back to find the message think that peaceful protest is no longer effective and that's a big shift in the in the attitude in, and tactics of the civil rights movement in this country. My experience in New Jersey Let's talk about New Jersey, because, as my whole identity is something very different star is going to sound like new jerseys, your whole identity, you are so not cliched New Jersey, an elegant,

your public prison Elsevier only acts, icons, No generally, I mean that in places like Camden and Newark, where there is Trans generational memory of riots and protest and how destructive that can't be There really has not been this kind of outpouring of violence. You ve seen public officials and demonstrate earth and police arm in arm Tor operating towards the same cause, and you said something very similar in Flint Michigan, which has again a very recent experience with civil, Siberia, ensign and public unrest and done. We know that the absence that kind of very recent experience, reason in the forty units. Sixty seven was a long time ago. But people in positions of authority and Newark are are quite acquainted with it.

Air of it and have their memory have really have reacted to this situation very differently. I've been I've been pretty surprised by the situation in Jersey. I definitely expected this place to the light up. Well, Newark by the White Newark Newark is an absolute power So what I was talking about in relation to aid street after that Martin Luther King Rights of the Newark Rights, where a year earlier and more, not we're not triggered by by the by catch his death, they were the approximate cause of the famous Colonel Commission study new never recovered Newark was a Newark, was a eyes there major american city, that basically appeared as a major american city in about two years and was gone. It had begun to come back in the twenty first century, but an athlete century was lost yet no for it was, you know it was. It was

city of other of six hundred six hundred fifty seven eighty thousand people were got depopulated by half every. Basically, every white person left at it. It became a bit of a very sad Place with you know, amazing housing, stock and beautiful neighborhoods that were basically ruined and destroy, some of that was economic. What a lot of it was what happened after the riots. Witches were gone, but the disparity between places like Jersey City, which is right over the river path right from Manhattan and Camden, which is your wife.

Across the bridge from Philadelphia are really night and day, and it is shocking. The extent to which the violence that you ve seen perpetrated by a crowds that are by no means monochromatic, let's say very mixed race crowds in Philadelphia and New York City, causing this kind of devastation with primarily brought black activists in Camden, Jersey, City and Newark, not be anything that way. Well, I mean I think, it's very clear that you know when you have. It is understood including by AL shorten at least and do you know, rhetorically absorption, who literally created race riots in New York in the Eightys and Ninetys and and and his behavior led to the death of seven people at a store and a hundred twenty fifth, Freddy's fashion mark, which was set on fire by somebody who

you know I was triggered by AL sharpens, complaining about white interlopers, owning businesses and black neighborhoods. Seven people were killed in that fire. I shall now speaks the language of this is not right and we need to come together, and you know the violence and helping and all of that, his entire public career it was created by being up of a possible violence and decay and disorder That journey, I think, suggest something about. I think it is Candy thing to do. You want to look at another way to say, look we're all for the good parts and we don't like the bad parts. I not sure. I don't I'm not sure that you can divorce the good parts from the bad pie

well, and particularly in the last couple of knights of unrest, you seem less and less eagerness to do that in a fairly vigorous defence of the destruction of property and violence. As long as it's aimed at rich white people that you know, there's someone wrote, eat the rich on one on the fancy restaurant in DC, and so there is that there is a kind of ass element here too and Some neighbours were kind of following what's going on social media, about George Sound, an alarm People were like: where do we made up? Yell is burned to the ground. Let it burn. I mean there was plenty of absolutely nihilistic acceptance and celebration of violence and destruction. Fit was being done to someone and it's the kind of thing where, if, if white nationalists were putting that hunt social media about black neighborhoods, it would be absolutely all over the new so again like this is not the it's wrong. Whoever does it. I think there's more people have either gotten immune to other people who who want to see peaceful protests in change, are not going to speak out

about what's going on there in their own movement right and in the same way that I think you know the right is, is called to account to to address things like white nationalism and, if when trumpets cobbling, why NASH Lesser using rhetoric that we know is meant to reach out to them. It is incumbent, even more so on conservatives to speak out and say that so I think the left is having a similar challenge. Right now, with Antigua and with some of the more violent groups who are protesting, and I am not, seeing something some, but but they should. You know they need to speak out about the interesting effort to again separate the good part of the programme. The bad parts of the protests have led to an interesting parallel to like early sixties, The unrest where the people who serve supporters of this of the protests. Or are you now

everyone a slice. It are very girl to come up with a villain. An external villain right is at an end, so you have this term that we haven't you that was used by segregationist in the sixties to describe wife, things were white. Why why things were bad in Montgomery, Alan Emma were you know at the university of out wherever was outside agitators, So the outside agitators can take many forms a depending on whose being spoken to write. You have the mayor of Saint Paul, saying that he heard that nobody who was arrested was from Minnesota, which turned out to be, Entirely untrue. Eighty, you, I think you you ain't a eighty. Eight percent of those arrested for looting and vandalism were from within the state, and then you know that than the next day the governors said. Look I wanted, and I want to believe that

We, the worst elements of this, are have been, but you keep your met. People being busted had been bustin from out of the state, but I think that's part of the problem. We need to actually looks barely more than that. You seen plenty of influential current and former democratic officials in an office seekers suggesting that this is all the work of russian propaganda. Oh yeah, that's right, this is because guided incited acts of violence by a foreign power back on measures and without any effort at long last and the organised crime. Also that was another one though it then I don't know how to get real sixties. We, why? Let your mom, you ve, had white supremacist coming in to get the cops to attack them because their true to pretend to be anti further, not really anti fa, they're, just white supremacist pretending to be anti fa to target

leftists and then you have Susan rise, warm or national security adviser, saying she isn't seeing the intelligence, but she knows a russian playbook when she sees it. That does that mean that the Russians are here. Because now we're in John Birch Society territory. Russians are showing up russian agent You are showing up at anti aggregation rallies as outside agitators to destroy the social fabric of America. That is the exact rhetoric of parents, of the paranoid style and american politics that Richard Hoss Standard Serve delineated in. Nineteen sixties and an we're talking about Evelyn Farkas, the former under Secretary of State Susan Rice, the former national security adviser, are blaming russian interference like it's like

Anything they don't like now include from trumps victory to looting is, is the fault of Russian. I wish You know where were they when we were trying to blame the Russian simply for trying to infiltrate our vocabulary in the nineteen seventies and eighties? Did you know that the left liberals are in a bit of a bind here because the nation of have to find up parties responsible who are removed enough from what they care about like it's, it's if they say well, this is Antigua there, the comical they were defending Antigua and all sorts of other contacts very recently, because that, because the the phenomena of over educated, comfortable white, young, suburban knights and urban nights

in writing and perform. These actions is a combination of critical race theory in the academy which holds that there is no institution in the United States that is exempt or absolved from perpetuating white supremacy and everything needs to burn that is, critical race theory as it not in the academy, and it has become mainstream among these people, for whom they have consumed, perhaps far too much educated educational products, and it is isn't, it I their philosophy, the world be at their Holy Ology, one the most surreal things caught on video in the last day, or so was to white girls tagging a Starbucks with black lives. Matter. Of fact, the police are my friends there

and in a black lives matter, protester walking over them and sank. Stop it like knock it off. I'm we're gonna get blamed for that, and this is not what we're doing. We are peacefully marching down from point a to point b, stop tagging stores in, and you know, causing destruction and an put black lives matter, and that that is not what we're doing now. Look in DC. There been plenty of protesters who were happy to note that they turn to burn Saint Johns Episcopal Church last night. You know the church at every president is worshipped that, since the founding their public that so their definite protesters you're doing this, but I was so struck by exactly what you said: no alike are you have these these two white young women who clear, they feel like they are fighting the power here by doing something that the very person they claim to be speaking for his asking them stop doing with our neighbour

it's a lecture, the person who is it, who admonishing them on her lack of sophistication we're on the look out woman? She was so patient with those girls. I don't think I could have been that patient shoot, but she was wrong. She was so tat. She was traumatized in that event and by how this head spun out of control beyond the scope of its original intentions, and it was heartbreaking too, to watch them. So this is a twenty year story. I think in the United States on the left that's out. There are different twenty your stories, there's a twenty five year story about the right and white supremacy and and web dating back to Timothy Mcveigh and wake up, and all that There is a twenty year story that really begins or really has its moment of explosion with the anti Globalization protests in Seattle at the G, whatever Gaed number, it was in two thousand and one right so

That was when you had giant mobs of Shaggy Post hippy, post grunge white people. You know protesting in a semi violent fashion and having entire phalanx of apologists and defenders I believe that what they were doing was the Lord's work and from there moving on to occupy and then to all of it Jeanne together. So occupy was about money gateway, stuff- was about money, then Adam critical race theory and Ferguson and Baltimore and Travel Martin and all kinds of stuff, and you you of a generation of growing anonymous. Yet remember them. Let me know

oh anonymous, there's a whole digital. Whole online aspect writes about information, and so I heard Bill Breton on morning, Jos Morning, the former, the fur former commissioner of the New York City, police department, saying that their there seem to be a level of organization, at least in New York City, to how the looting was going. That was different and then anybody had ever seen before- I'm not sure what that means. It means that certain what it means I wasn't in real time I'll get out and they have a social media up and they text each other where they are where they put their car and where they would sore they're gonna hit, and then they move when they went up and they retreat they get back. Did they go to the next place? Now they did so. Right and they have the ability to organise swiftly an entire it's the flash model for crime this is about. This is the this. Is the outgrowth, as I say, of two decades of activism. This is not the

not new, and it's not. It is a kind of blending of all of this stuff together right, anti globalization, the notion that the richer destroying everybody, the two thousand eight meltdown. Confrontations, between police and and and and and the citizenry in, the twenty tens and development arise of of grass. Fruits are organizing on social media and through social media there all kind of Berge together there. This is some kind of aid, an explosion of that, we could all see it coming Noah and twenty sixteen you rode extensively for commentary both in the maggots, in Amman, on the website about anti FA and how anti fraud what we see what we are seeing in twenty. Sixteen. There was a out of concern about violence at the Trump rallies and things like that, but the but the true violence that was going on in the streets of the United States was being triggered by this far left anarchist. You know

this movement, particularly in San Jose, California, right oh, he knows all over them yeah, and there was definitely, I think, was early march of twenty. Sixteen. There were definitely more episodes of violence perpetrated by pro trump supporters, then Anti trust the borders, but it was generally mixed and, as the year went on, you didn't see any programme violence anymore. You saw exclusively organised anti from violence, which was excused as a response to stimulate, by and by people in positions of authority in and media elites and opinion makers, who always saying that this was the culmination of a series of stressors that anyone should excuse, or at least understand and get you buy, was one of them. The people. At the time who was saying? No, there is no excuse for violence, no matter what, and unfortunately you seen you ve seen this progressed

two when it is now, but it is it is, it is not a dangerous and it is not a response to justice local stimuli alone. There is a support structure of permission structure that excuses this sort of thing and gives it permission and allows it to evolve into what we are seeing today and those long is the people who are responsible for those narratives refused to confront it. We're not gonna see at an end in part, you know back to the lockdown stuff because of the state imposed indolence on an entire segment of society, many of whom are responsible for this violence. I don't see how this ends anytime soon in a normally these things laughed for two or three or four Is it then they sort of burn out when they're not put down? You know I mean in the case of eighteen, sixty three. If the navy come and show the city. You know I don't. I don't necessarily see weirdly off ramp is to this thing, because all of our elites have advocated anything remotely

I'm responsibility will know you mention France and twenty nineteen. I mean the yellow Jack, the the yellow jacket. Protests in France didn't stop when they went on six months and they had a date. They didn't happen every night for six months, but we do have. We do have the suggestion here in recent history, in a democratic country of a kind of you know, endless protest at this end. This actually speaks to that. Another thing: I've seen a lot more in this protest and in previous ones, as in the past ten years and that's d- and this really is the saddens me this this its despairing. But people say we ve tried everything. We ve tried peaceful protest. I don't care, don't throw Martin Luther King Jr. In my face it he was killed and now people are still getting killed. So we're done we're done doing peaceful protest,

we're going to turn to violence, because violence is the only thing that gets people's attention, which we know from you know. Political scientist has studied this for decades. We know from history, that's not true, but that, but it it. What's this ere it with what makes me so sad reading. That is that people really believe that they really think you know and end, though those strangely the example that keeps getting brought up, which is strange, because I find it bizarre that you didn't change anything when calling Capron took an EU just mocked him like well, I mean she's kind of remarkable figure, but a lot of us did mark when he stood or, like I mean I think you have every right to do what he, if the protest in that way and what he was protesting, was a legitimate concern, you can still believe that and think he wasn't there best spokesperson, but this idea that this this history of peaceful protest should be checked out. The window now in favour of violence is is for me was concerning going forward because we do not right now. Have someone in the White House who's gonna be able thread that needle I mean

There is a bizarre situation, is happening even on the part of the president's critics or saying. Where is the president? Why does act globally, ass, dress right now, as though there is any indication, that would help anything. This is of the president, who is predicated his political strategy on division on, by forgetting the political spectrum and benefiting from having fifty plus one of that by vacation. He catches pivot on a diamond and somehow, The country with some great oratory is, though, that was even imaginable pleasantly repay me that they don't even money. They don't mean that they're just pointing out his his absence by, but by saying at him and what it is that you Thank you should expect from a leader that he's not not gonna provide. I mean the interesting thing about the Martin Luther King, parallels of course, in the nineteen sixties, as king it out was were was had become this or moral conscience of the name. It's not as though, within the black community there weren't altered

voices outward dismissive and hostile to him, Malcolm X, being the most obvious, but also stoking car Michael up. Let the black Power movement itself said that that the the non that the approach, the nonviolence approach, was self defeating that it was giving in that what was needed was confrontation and violent confrontation, because the only way that you could get you know the powerful to change was to scare them kings idea was no, you get you you you view it can change from the inside. You shame them into change, and here was right and they were wrong, but the human there is a deep human belief in the euro. What what? What is that

among the many bad Thomas Jefferson quotes the worst. Thomas Jefferson quote the one about: how does the seeds of liberty nutriment referred? The case law by the blood of martyrs. I mean that is a that is a deep human impulse to believe that violence is his clarifying and purifying. I may look. Not it not to go up is silly popular culture as an example, but how many more movies have been praised. Universal in our lifetime then likely do the right thing and what is the story of Spike Lee? Do the right thing, at hot summer night, a race riot riot on this block in in in Bedford, Stuyvesant, Brooklyn and a guy who works for and has had a good put some good life working at or working for this pizzeria owned by this very right

weighing italian guy finally hostage pick sides and he takes a garbage, can and throws it through the plate, glass window of the peace area, that has been working for, since he was a teenager, and that is supposed to be a moment of liberation. Catharsis. The he goes to violence is the combination of the movie, that is in small form, what we are seeing here that idea that glorification of violence as the purifying fire again like it's not to get too like his crazy about them, but it is, despite Jefferson, being the source of their quote. You know this is the french Revolution versus the american Revolution. The american pollution. Ultimately, even though it there was a war involved, was about the building of new institutions of liberty, The french revolution that be was the ratification of existing institutions that wasn't it

pushing at all was justly established the illegal establishment of the institutions that already essentially this we on the ground right, but in any case, that that's right, but in it Here's the french Revolution was the Clara I violence that then descended into a tyranny totalitarianism was ultimately up ended by dictatorship, veto viability dictatorship- and that was the end of that, and so these are the two major trends and revolutionary thinking in the asked over the last two hundred, and you know it's out the classic Garber versus Thomas Pain. How we want to slice it and we're now in our clarifying fire moment end for me. This is, and we haven't like gone thirty thousand feet here in the analysis, but I dont know that I've ever been is depressed. I bet I thought of the virus.

Was terrible, but it was exogenous and Guenaud was something you couldn't control or contain, and to that nay, was awful, but it was. You know what it's something that. I mean I just you know having lived through what I lived through a nineteen seventy seven as a sixteen year old, which was a witch say a moment in time that you now, as has fixed my political and ideological and moral sense, pretty much in place since the notion that I would see this having seen little bits of it before right. We saw in Ferguson, we ve seen it here and there, but I'm in This is the worst thing you know I've seen I can't even think of a way first thing that I've seen going on in our country. You know in in in my lifetime, I mean they're my my adult lifetime cause

It lives through nineteen sixty eight, which was still worse than this, but we but nineteen sixty two twenty, when he has a while to go yet it's only. And also part of the depressing thing about this and the scary thing about this is this comes at the end of this? long, discrediting and lack of belief in instead in our institutions, right which we ve been talking about. Long showed their serve no backstop. Here there is no there's no framework that people trust to get us back into some normal shape, its its its absolute chaos, the most Morton tumors, about this was to say that twenty slash twenty trying to be one thousand nine hundred and eighteen and one thousand nine hundred and sixty eight. At the same time, we're running long, but this is probably an episode in which we can. We can feel comfortable running running a little long. So maybe we should just

with a little as as Jonah, causing rank rank pundits tree. Ordinarily, I would say that a a fight between you, no law and order and and the forces of chaos was should benefit the candidate who largely took over the Republican Party and twenty sixteen by talking by time, like almost a caricaturist lawn order candidate, I'm not so sure about this. This time I think, as the incumbent and preside If it appears that the nation is spiralling into decay and disorder that he that that here, presidency, neither are prevented from happening, nor, as it were, seems powerless to dressed in a manner that will that will have it, have it stop itself,

I don't see how this doesn't end. The term presidency I don't know how else to say it, but it's Flatley is that it's got it. I'm not even talk about what's fair and what's not fair what he deserves or what he doesn't deserve. I just mean the feeling, we ve had enough that this is enough? There he doesn't really seem to want to engage with a particularly and he could change may be, but I had to start You come back from these two blows of the virus and the end this. I loved the economic criteria, the economic. But that's part of that. That's part of the virus seminar. I would a sign that the general, the general prices caused by by by our This is ultimately, where I come down. There is very little that the president can do National guard at state level instead of its institutions. So I mean

attempted to insert himself in this without really Kalis tweet about the notion that women, when the looting starts the shooting stars we'll talk about that last week, I'm so he was trying to take advantage of this situation in a political context, because that should be understood as a political statement, but the pandemic demonstrated that the reservoir sympathy for this presidency shallow, even though those conditions were not his were totally exaggerates, keep had the shall at one of the shallowest, in short, lived approval bombs in the western world and even though these conditions are likely exogenous as well, it would take when I wrote methods for NBC. It would take a monumental feat of cognitive compartmentalization, apart of voters, to be able to catch the poles to ratify this incumbency. Even other surrounded by all these suboptimal conditions. He is not responsible for them, but he never less presides over them, and that might be enough while also

this is where his absence, apart from being the calls of the people who don't like him for him to appear this in his absence, is hurting him because of you. If you are, if you detested, what's going on here your eyes for law and order type, american motor what what? Where on earth is the present during this? What what? What did? What does have wise so so AWOL so any attack it? He attempted to establish mega night outside the EU, the White House right that you run counter, instructions. I didn't occur right so in DC when he did his what a year ago, his big fourth of July Parade- and we had all these trucks, rumbling and cost a lot of disruption was clearly this. It was shall write. It was bluster One year later I mean we he's he's. These bluff has been called and he in the bunker of the White House, and I know there's a lot of people in Africa. He's afraid he's afraid, but I dont think we

underestimate someone who, who kind of that made his way on reality, television not really? No, I mean that there is a kind of paralysis that must set in when, when your real life becomes, this surreal mean forget the pandemic mean there are literally people pushing to bear. Kids around the White House, and I think that he knows right that, in terms of calling out the National Guard, that sort of thing heat, there's not much, you can do in the inner they called up last Last night, they called on US federal marshals and the agents to have back up for the local deasey police and others who were dealing with the leaders in the writer, so their small things that can be done here and there, but I agree with China. I mean, I think that this is he's gotta be toes, and- and this is exactly the money we did the conceded that we get the leaders we deserve, but we both gotten terrible circumstances. The terrible leader- and that is its not sustained

and these the leader we deserve a beginning of aid. We are thereby you haven't written an emanation. Yes, he on the public mood of the country. Yet, and that's just the It is, I mean I was mumbled. I think, moreover, really non loans, grief. Brief point about his opposition. I mean Joe Biden. The biggest obstacle during the primary was the notion that he was too hard on crime that its and die ITALY and asset at this point as we enter the general election right well, so there are a couple of political, simple political fact. One of them is tromp is now in the Arcy Poland,

literally exactly where he was on this date in twenty. Sixteen he's at forty two and a half percent Hilary at this point in twenty. Sixteen was at forty three and a half per cent. Joe Biden at the state is at forty eight and a half per cent Biden, so the the notion that will we're gonna see as somehow redux, twenty twenty sixteen and sixteen and the trumpets gonna pull a rabbit out of the hat. Here. He may and Biden that by numbers there's no, you think that's all that solid and his, but there is every reason to think that his number a solid and that Absent, a dramatic change in his behaviour? We ve all thought that he could maybe benefit from a change and binds

you're right at or change or like a more exacerbation of binds weaknesses, write his doddering nurses factor can't speak all that. Well, internal contradictions in the democratic parties, any illogical platform where by seems more moderate, but the party is obviously too radical, really tat when the presidency and all that but, in the end, the notion that the elections Gimme a referendum, the EC on the accompanying Nazi challenger, when where we are, through a time. A period of President crisis in the sense that we have the virus ends and urban riots. At the same moment, and no clear wade how we're gonna get out of either crisis means that the ink The referendum on the incumbent is a given, and so he either the changes behaviour radically or he's over the over with an

There is no sign that he will ever. He will change its behaviour radically, not it not. Even that I know what that that would mean I mean I, you know, I rushed out there what a brilliant comical we so, which he said that it is the proof that Trump isn't Lee authoritarian Bringer of the end of democracy, that the left thinks you as is that, she keeps having these occasions on which he could seize more power in an emergency fashion, and he doesn't want to do it because he doesn't want to be that president. He wants to be. The p wants to play president and now, since February, there's no play. This is all president. This is all crappy choices, horrible conditions under which you have to make terrible decisions. That will make no one happy and the only way that you succeed in that is being contain, controlled, deliberate seeming to be in control of things,

and somebody with a vision of how we're gonna get through this and provide comfort leadership that provides comfort, not not empathy, not. I feel it pay not I'm, really sorry for what you're going through, but the comfort that there is a steady hand on the till and if you sitting on the White House for four days with his mouth, so stones sown shut in a bunker, say goodbye to him, and I say that to everybody who loves him and everybody aids him in everything like that's got thing to do with that. It's got nothing to do with even how you feel about him, but the notion that this is enough and he's had a shot, and things have not gone well how he gets out of that by trying to tell people that they can't possibly like Joe Biden because Joe Biden is an idiot or a or senile people could get to the point worth.

I don't care, I think, he's an idiot and senile and I still don't care because I'd rather take my chances with that than with what'll happen in the next crisis and twenty twenty one April, you were, I mean, I think, that's all true. I also think at the same time- and it was said this over the weekend- that this is creating a lot of right, wingers good, which is now the same thing as saying it's helping, Trop necessarily was so the job he could have a visa shaped recovery right. That's exactly right! They have a really terrible twenty twenty and then the Democrats take over and then they do at home. In two thousand aid they overreach and then twenty twenty two is that there is a big others another while Ito Republican Wave everywhere that destroys the next democratic precedency attract other essential science to suggest an attentive, specially extensive. But there are social science to suggest that there is a inverse correlation.

Between the number of violent demonstrations and a particular regions. Democratic vote share that there's actual studies that suggest that you have more rights. You get more republican voters and I could play out, but against the backdrop of pandemic economic calamity again, would take it. Would it would? This would have to be the conditions that prevail for several months in order for voters to, for those can those adverse conditions to be subsumed under this week. And super prevailing of concern and anxiety. But the thing is it: these conditions won't prevail as they are Seattle, morph wharf into something else, and then what there's something else becomes may or may not trouble. It may not be able to whittle through. In other words, if we up here with a sort of list of demands. You know that

I'm just making this up, but you have something like reparation right reparations where ups and others in the countries of choosing sides about some radical ways forward and Trump puts himself on the side of not supporting such things that that can change the debate sufficiently. We could we can move past just the bear being chaos into a kind of framework where he could begin to benefit. Again, I don't know nothin I'll. Tell you what's interesting will be that the entire nations focus the entire pundits hock focus from here on in should be on Minnesota. Why Trump loss Minnesota by appointing a half Hillary won Minnesota Minnesota by point the half you could have some bazaars circumstance.

Which the suburban item Minnesota flip back Republican Minnesota goes republic him. While everything else goes democratic, I mean you quit there. There are kind of weird scenarios here, because how how the political establishment Minnesota handles this and deals with this, they are seen. I believe, if the, if the suburban knights, who started getting afraid that people were gonna, start storming. The suburbs of the twin cities get terrified of of that happening over the course of the next week and they want guns and that it I've dealt they'll go with be crazy, authoritarian over the inept senile guy, because what what choice they have between the two but I I mean I don't know what how that you know. I suppose Pennsylvania could have the same effect to maybe in the Pennsylvania, in the pits in the Philadelphia suburbs. Maybe, but I don't know.

Anyway. So well, yes, crushing Moreau so the achieved, though, in this case, not on our part that the country did it to us, we were There are going ahead. We are exciting to cheer up like those that girl here's. The thing well will finish by saying that the krona virus numbers look very look good, relatively speaking, were down to you. Don't like a relative handful of deaths in in New York, the epicenter, I think we had, six hundred des nationwide on Saturday and Sunday, which is the law was in a world where were trailing off as we go into the summer, and there was this story out of ITALY that suggests that the that the viruses low the viral load is some radically decreasing as the virus ages, and, if that's true, then, then this is only good news, and yet we can't even focus on the good now

Yeah we're talking about attenuated strange a couple of days ago that this is the natural course in which these sort of epidemics take as though the really brilliance hence lose their ability to continue to have new hosts right, It's just a natural evolution, this sort of situation, but I mean it's: it's staggering: how everyone in the EU professional class of elite, opinion makers and political authorities who had dedicated themselves for two months to shaming people who went outside it was their entire identity and it suddenly just evaporated there is that concern does not exist. Anymore, if it is if it returns in the form of policing people who are not engaged in this misconduct, you'll you'll. So the seeds for some very interesting political backlash.

Well, it's ok yeah so basically have to create the conditions for a political rights. In order to see your friend the F B, I I I I go for that I'd love to see. You never heard some people, I'd really love to see. I'm sorry. I think this is our longest podcast ever where I think we're approaching eighteen minutes. So if you, if you ve, come to the end, if you ve reached us all the way to the end thanks so much The last thing well we'll try that will try to contain ourselves tomorrow for a Christina. Now, I'm John passports, keep the candle burning