Eli Lake joins the podcast crew today to talk about the stunning developments in the investigation into the 2016 efforts to demonstrate the Trump campaign's collusion with Russia—a charge we now know to have been entirely without foundation, notwithstanding the lives this false charge affected and nearly destroyed. Give a listen.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
some guy come to the Commentary Magazine Daily podcast today is Tuesday November ninth, two thousand and twenty one. I am John before it's. The editor of Commentary magazine with me is always executive. Editor, a Greenwald High senior writer christian Hi Christine, I can add see it at Renault Rossman high now I John and joining us today to provide illumination in many ways, but particularly on on the subject for which she has written extensively for commentary, the Russia Gate Hoax and the
the new twists in the investigation that are assuming em on the Clinton campaign and its Miss behaviors Eli Lake highlights. How are you re thanks for having me? Ok, we'll get They will get to this amazing. A turn of events in the Durham special prosecutor. Investigation of the cliff campaigns. Role in these. Steel dossier and will try to make sure, as we talk about this later on, that we will not get to find the way so that you can follow. the conversation costs that there are so many names and theirs it. So students so confusing that we're gonna try to separate out the strengths and make it clear what what is actually going on, but before we get there The news of the morning is that the governor, Christopher Snow of New Hampshire has decided not to challenge democratic incumbents, sent her Maggie Hassen envy New Hampshire senatorial campaign of twenty
twenty two half an hour. We having won the state in twenty sixteen by about a thousand clouds over Kelly. I add here's my quick take on this, so this happened. the dealt a blow, because, oh my god, this is absolutely obviously we walked wild stand, and so he does I do it and now you know now. This is a blow to republican hopes, are recapturing the Senate, and that strikes me as being whistling cast the graveyard for Democrats and people wanted who want the democratic having control of Santa, because ass. It was not a strong heavy to begin with, the environment is unfavourable. In that sense, this will be a right between has in any generic Republican as long as they can get a relatively generic Republican, including me Kelly, I out who wasn't the senator, whom she ousted Emma particularly and favour
the atmosphere and twenty sixteen and It strikes me that Haskins chances arm are better without in the race is, she might even have decided not run for reelection, had he come into the race, but that still has to be looked at as at best a toss up. And at worst, probably a win. A lean republican state for twenty twenty two do. You agree I agree, are the problem? Is that when these big personalities bow out, then they create a vacuum as already allow recruiting efforts to bring Calais out back into the into the fold in name might be successful. Who knows but the innocent logic was that it's really terrible to be in the Senate and in Washington, and it's really nice being a governor and that's what I prefer to be, and you can't argue with that as part of the problem is that they now have to the generic Republican to ride the environment and not be
crazy person, and there is no guarantee that you can win a primary without being a crazy person in New Hampshire is kind about volatile political environment. those tend to reward extent personalities. So I wouldn't rule out twenty ten style environment, in the primary electorate that reward. It's crazy! That's that's! What's that was the problem. When you turn it might be. The problem and twenty to twenty two that's recruiting issued. The real scary part is that Chris anew said that you know Is you got? I haven't ruled out going to Washington, just not as a senator index. thing that he will be one of the three hundred and seventy five Republicans will run for the White House and twenty twenty four thereby allowing somebody like, for example, Donald Trump to glide into the nomination, with all of nineteen percent of the primary vote. Who knows, but that was the problem. sixteen and is shaping up to be a problem, and one of my report
me it's not. That interested me what's interesting is criminal First, the son of Johnson himself, the former governor of New Hampshire. and- and the White House staff under George H, W Bush and the brother of another governor. like he has reason to doubt: wanna go to Washington and be a senator. I mean to be honest, you know There's a reason why a lot of these newly minted candidates for these things aren't people with extensive washing experience because it stinks in Washington, it's horrible to be a Washington politician. Now you know you sort of like the pull the plug
There is then purposes of being of being a centre. Congressmen are much much less than they used to be. We talked about this was Chris STAR Hope last week and if you're a governor of esteem Where are you actually have allowed power and authority in Camp Numb and cancer get things done? going into the center, where you're lucky to vote on three bills a year that that that really please you. I don't even know why you would want to do that. I mean obviously, if you're like a state senator in Nebraska, you can become the senator from the brass guy, that's just step up and and and You have the same problems in it in a state house that you do and it maybe in the you know, capital, U S capital, but but but your status is much higher. Erin your beer, beer responsibility is much greater, but I think going being a governor to being a senator. As that which is a very classic pattern. It is
that's something. We're just gonna see people wanting to try to do much anymore. Don't everybody down. I wish I had at once. I was going to push back a little bit. I know is very bleak view of the republican field of candidates because it it'll be really different this time round, even if we have a lot of people throwing their head in the ring, because because Trump is such a palpable known, Quantity, and so both beloved by it by a small group, of course, importers and absolutely loads by by others, and what this recent elections showed us that the people who held their nose and voted for me. I won't do it a second time if their independent minded voters in the suburbs in particular, and that Republicans can, when those folks and so they need to find, I mean all the talk is that we need to find a young girl. Like you know, candidate, twenty twenty four, I don't think it has to be a young could like candidate, but I dont think that a lot of people crowding the fields beginning is. Is the worst thing if their message is not trompe
because it'll show him to be just the same same old and he's been hinting in the last few days that that he's pretty much you know planning to run? So it's not, like you said, is not unknown. Quantity like he was the first time round. Oh he's pretty fair to say that if Trump runs, the only possibility for him losing the nomination is, if the higher rest of the party who hears around one person who can cast with him and say in the Canada the future, you are the Canada, the past, I'm the guy was them talk about what to do to get us out of the mess that we are in of which you helped create an idle. on a stand around talking about how the twenty two election was was judged unfairly. I want to talk about what we're gonna do to derail, coming of socialism more be now fix America's foreign policy posture whatever, if that
Messages and centralized, and in a specific person who has some kind of kryptonite against tromp alike, whom trump can't humility. successfully or bring down with nastiness successfully are all of that. Then then there might actually be a serious contest, but I think, I was right. That is therefore five or six people in a race against tromp. There is no. There is really no point that's just something that the best known quantity will will will will ride out. Assuming that the party the party were first past the post, most of the delicate rules remains in place you know looking toward midterms, I'm I'm less convinced that it's about eccentrics this time round. I really am, I think you know, there's somehow
because I think this is the case. It favours breaking on the left exactly, but because there's been a as vocal, outspoken and rejection of extremism and crazy ambition on the left. That happens William Concert with some sort of corresponding fact, on the other side- and I don't quite what it is yet, but I think things like you know young king and his demeanor his his willingness not to embrace Trump wholeheartedly. I think that speaks well that that that that bodes well for the for the possibility of their being unless eccentric.
GNP going forward, I mean. Certainly, the mainstream media is worried about this because, after the after last election There were a whole raft of articles written say like oh, I think I think Republicans figured out how to distance themselves from Trump and in the end, that could work for them, which I think is it is it indicate Maybe, but you know, splashing personalities count for Olaf's forever. You know I'm going on can there's also a Herschel Walker in Georgia, and that's gonna be a competitive rates, because the guy has a tendency, trip over his on shoes, any an arrest he has been courting Doug, do see in Arizona and importing Larry Hogan in Maryland, but should probably the only way they win Maryland and might be the only way to Windward Arizona, given that put the state so synonym gaps. it's it's an a bad omen. I suggest I guess for recruiting efforts in states
Republicans really need a silver bullet to Wednesday. Why? I totally get it- and I think you know good job How does is to have gone show for a while, but it feels different in that that was new of over past few years, so got all the. But what is happening here? We were getting these exceptions and it starts to actually feel little old. I mean I mean I think no one makes an interesting point like the test case would be Arizona right, cause, Doug, Deuces, the governor, he would be a solid candidate for senator and he would lot lot. He would likely be more Kelly who is running for the second time, because he filled up special actions. He asked and the second time in two years, but Trump doesn't like to see cuz Dulce didn't What Trump wanted him to in the course of the stop the steel efforts in November and December, and the Arizona Republican Party is full of psychotic. I mean it
say it is a lunatic freak show and we don't actually. No. I haven't, looked up. The rules to do see should be able to waltz in, but you don't know if that can happen. because you know Kelly Ward, who basically should be in a straitjacket and living in Arkham asylum. You know next to all the Batman villains is like a major figure in Arizona politics and though, as a problem with our society- that the only insane asylum you can think of is a fictional one, we don't a famous saint silence, any more in that part of the problem. I think that fair, that that's the exact of course work. You know an aggressive yeah, see back then I could. I just say that in our national action network,
so. We are talking about the crazed Republican Party in Arizona. I just have to say that what Gostar did tweeting out a joking video about killing one of his colleagues on the other side of the ILO is totally repulsive, and I we may find that Paul dollars. That's reblong, pogo, sorry guys, member of the house, one of the worst anti semite one of them, people's whore America than, and so he somebody made some weird dad Is it an immensely shoots Elsie where she would sleep or somewhere they only totally back as yet, and then he posted it like those in this hilarious areas, money funny. I mean sort of thing, then an in n out in a different in a different world and maybe not a different world like he could be expelled from from Congress. For that. That is a that. That is a genuinely
that is a says, celebrated saluting the idea that he that he might kill a colleague you know they're. There are extreme case in which the House Expells members expelled Elsie Hastings as a member and could expel progress are as a member. I don't know why. Whether policy is going upper not but but its island, but currently needs to needs to start with the leadership of the Republicans in the house. That needs to be in its be called to account by his own leaders as earlier as time has nothing Kevin Mccarthy does. That is just so responsible and thoughtful, and you know I mean it's pretty pretty. pray startling Eli, you are Europe, Europe, Europe, quiet, and template Evan. I know you have you have you have views on many of these matters? I keep them you know I mean you guys talk about all the time you ve all events. Great observation Congress is a platform and this is part of the brand and
unfortunately the Porthos our example again, you know points two. Why, in? If you wanted to sort of, I think- we enforce a basic norm, ups of not just civility but not threatening, or making light of killing your colleagues, which seems pretty obvious there- you know, you are effectively going against the will of the voters in his district. So your presenting this, the difficult choice there already is a substantial eyes. I would the majority of Democrats, it appears and the people on the January six Commission really, but There are members of Congress who were part of with, as I said, I've seen zero evidence of this organizing. but they were this insurrection or the failed in directing the capital riot and attach edition. Overturn those elections, which is, of course, an irony because president, our former president trappers
Firstly, the legitimacy of the election saying that you're buying the son, a legitimate president and the note for this on the other side, is to get people out of Congress who have been elected by their constituents. so there has to be some way, maybe getting beyond this lunacy in this moment, because it seems that doing things like that You gonna normal time would be totally appropriate, but only kind of make the problem. Worse proud if I'm wrong. But I agree that, yes, it would be nice to enforce the norm, but I'm not asked. I'm not saying that I think policy should do it, or should that I'm saying that I'm saying that it would be a it would be a summit The discussion on the fact that it isn't gonna love crises in Glasgow, doing whatever it is that she's doing Glasgow the fact they haven't, they hasn't serb, yet, but opposite as a major issue. It is only by less than twenty four hours in that, but it might
an indication that some thought is being given to the question of. Do you just? Are you just adding fuel to the fire by by by making a making a capital case out of us, because in both ways, because You know the last thing. The last thing you need is out, you know is an empowered go, saw them tweeting out more things about him, shooting policy and stuff like that. I'm just quit. One thing I did not quite comparable- and I forgot the name of him, but there was that ridiculous member of Congress, who was stripped of his committee by the Republic, I think two or three years ago, because he was giving support to these. crazy kind of white now the island yeah you're right. right right- and you know that was that was a great a moment for policing one's own side,
later when George W Bush now supported taking at a large majority leader I have been a whole lot of credit republican forty God for that. So there's no incentive structure in some ways for doing these kinds of responses. things on your own site of policing your own side, because that's not going to change the perception of you know the elite yeah and others in Washington have all this kind of cultural, institutional power to say. Aha seeking, Dorothy did this response the whole thing and maybe the Republicans are changing and then they are so they. So neither the narrative of of the Republicans me an authoritarian, Insurrectionists party which terrorism, prior to that area. But it's not entirely true that I dont think that anything that Mccarthy to do that would would cause them to try give that up at normal trade is now also in the crosshairs, because
read this morning that there is a move, a foot in the republican caucus to strip the thirteen Republicans who voted for the by partisan infrastructure package to strip but their committee chairmanships and things like that, because they gonna went against the because they help pass the bill. And- and this is apparently bubbled up and get our liberal, journalists or writing about it or so gleeful about this It creates an interesting think of theirs. There's a whole bunch of people in the Publican sort of thought. Commentariat who said these people must be made to pay They should be primary? They should be this. They should be that which has a little boy. There is to be honest because if, if your goal is to get the Democrats out of control of the house, you know like going at robot s
being a lot of capital in the next six to eight months going after Republicans for cast, a problematic vote that was also cast by nineteen The Balkans in the Senate seems like a ridiculous expenditure, a bad energy. None The question is: will get will cabin Mccarthy somehow this? Or will he go along with that? and if he goes along with it, then then you really do have an interesting scenario and twenty twenty two in which the Republicans and having staging a civil war disciplinary civil war against in L a their own Catarina serve hot heterogeneous member. Shep whatever is left of its heterogeneous membership. Rather than focusing like a laser on the goal of women, the House, in winning the Senate tat part of the same symptom and why when its, when big personal please likes anew who could have ended the primary before it
and bow out because that, neutralizes that impulse to wage in our ideological purge war on your own side, if Kelly I got into the race, for example on there's a lot of efforts to get her into the raised I don't get you warmer, Senator former republican senator from you know. She only lost by like a thousand boats are some thousand downswing. Sixteen, but she's also said that he or she is dumped. Allow a crap on Donald Trump and who is not a role model and how it took us in the wrong direction? That would be the singular issue around which the primary would revolve. it's probably gonna- be the singularity around which state my primary spur Senate in a lot of other races will revolve on the Republican this is this: is it the big looming issue of our time on the right He's got right, Emmy thirty in Europe, but I actually think we should be having those battles ruling out any lose them well. First of all, I don't. I
I grew to. I don't think it's good because again it focuses the party if it focuses on the past and I'm a supposedly a past wallner past injury as opposed to what is Joe Biden done in the last here, one of Joe Biden and the Democrats done in the last year. You dont, like that thirty to forty percent of American like what's going on in Washington and with dynamic? So let's talk about, let's leap: frog over that to have a fight over what happened between November forth and January twentieth. Any twenty twenty twenty one like that, that's just that is an impulse and, what's more, let me just let me just finish this thought in time. A ten and twenty twelve Democrats played a backdoor role in getting some of the crazies nominated, in particular Todd Aiken in Missouri, whom
Irma Gaskell's campaign and Clare Mechanical herself gin. In various ways, boosted the visibility, today can embrace way so that he was the guy she could run against and crush, and there is a reason to think that Democrats continuing their focus on trumpets were told his bad rights, bankers Mccall if didn't win, but Democrats continue to focus on Trump in a way that causes Republicans to focus on Trump and make two thousand and twenty two primaries a referendum on Trump and talk about Trump and all of that they might be doing the Democrats work for them by, We let the republican effort to make twenty twenty to a referendum on the democratic rule of America. Since the twenty twenty elections, that's when young gets a young can didn't make it about tat His opponent dead, and I- and I take your point both Noah and john- that if you're in a primary said
Why should you dont want all the Republicans only fighting about trumpet? There is an opportunity for someone who won't play a Duncan like candidate, even in a primary to say. Let them also about Trump I'm looking ahead and that's the candidate, but I think scares ah, but there wasn't, but there wasn't a primary emerging right right. The american dream he didn't have to face. The larger republican Elect there was guided basically by and I'm gonna smoke enough smoke filled rooms. That's how Duncan got the nomination and that What can be the case and in most days state? So that's where the problem wise. Let me talk to you for a minute about our friends at the Actin Institute and their podcast acting on wind. It's easy to get wound up over what's happening in a country in the world refugees, border walls woke celebs, socialist, Sheikh Social Engineering, colored locked downs. That's why it's time for action!
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I and an apple podcast school Pike, S, modifies, teacher or wherever pint, fine podcast are available that act and that works less commentary to subscribe, Eli Lake, so stunning developments in the in the matter of the the unresolved matter, not of the twenty twenty election, but of the twenty sixteen election as John Durham, the John ADD Ons, I should know that, since my name is John John Durham, these special prosecutor, appointed by William BAR to look into the question of the unresolved. issues relating the Clinton campaign to the Twenty sixteen claims of Donald Trumps, suppose it
connections to Russia and efforts to suborn are democracies as tramping? out of manchurian russian candidate, ah BAR pointed Durham and and Durham very slowly and methodically has now issued two major indictments and the big one. really big one came last week, rights are now going to try to go through this, so we can explain who what what happened, why it so important, and why the entire journalistic mainstream, stand in the United States now stands in the dark, accused of playing a wii the pernicious and evil role, both after the election in an effort to discredit the Trump illustration and to carry this information of their own wittingly their unwittingly. That that day,
many lives and end and appended many many policy discussion. So, let's start with this, who is ignored? Lunch Anko eager dance Anko is a former brooking institution researcher who The sort of makes a living working on projects in some cases, with private intelligence fur in this case of the twenty sixteen election. It was crystal steal, the former spy whose name is forever attached to the dossier and eager Densher Anko first of all, was suspected of maybe being Self, a russian intelligent agent or asset by the FBI. We know in around twenty ten or so, and in this period he was working for someone named Fiona Hill, who lay
serve the trump administrations. He had been the national intelligence officer for the Obama administration, and she is, but he who is one of their economy, best experts on the crime. in the West, the reason that's important, because her name has surfaced recently, because she is the person doing twenty ten introduced. Dance Franco to Christopher Steel so it turns out. The dancer go is in the context The steel dossier is sometimes called the primary sub source, but he was the main source of information and he was the person who gathered the intelligence to it up in this document. Ok now now it happened last week to Ivar done. He was indicted on five. Counts of lying to the FBI, and his wise were involving two things. One was he did not ignored,
his close working relationship with a long time them Braddock Operative named Charles Darwin, and we should break I want to get the door in a minute who fed him at the very least, We know for certain information that was in steel dossier, about the circumstances under which parliament afford. Quitter was fired, but was also likely a source. For some of the more alarming allegations against Donald Trump, including the infamous golden showers allegation in the mosque outwards. Carlton ok. So let's go: let's go: let's try to disentangle this tension though, is indicted for applying to the FBI lying essentially lying to the Durham investigation,
setting information on the provenance. Of this, the old Darcy at the steel Darcy being the document that was circulating around Washington in September or October of twenty. Sixteen alleging that the KGB compromise on Donald Trump, dating back at least lie Wendy what they re YE allegation for the purposes of the Trump years was that there was an active and well developed conspiracy between Russia and the trunk campaign to interfere in the twenty sixteen election right so and that that that relationship was who to trumps behaviour that the KGB was onto and therefore they had him compromised and produce him at well. According to what now now now, let's go to? Let's go to Charles Darwin, Rail, Charles
oh in a long time, democratic operative, it turns out, plays a like triple quadruple role in the creation, production dissemination and information contained within the steel dossier sought to start take us also working with Charles DAWN on putting together a conference in March now in the fall of twenty sixteen. So that's the first thing. The second thing is: is that true, appears to be a song for a lot of these allegations and Charles Darwin is in a position to know, because for eight years, between two thousand and six, twenty four and twenty fourteen Charles Darwin worked for catch him, which the pr firm based in Washington. I think, a New York that, at the time
represented the Russian Federation and gas palm their largest energy company and the best the most Delicious irony in all of this as well Chuck Ross of the day of the Washington Free Beacon has reported last week is the Charles. Darwin is an unregistered foreign agents, which is to say that he is working four catch him: he is submitting on fair forms for or a catch him submitted expenses for Mr Doorn north of one hundred zero. Is the foreign agent registration, exactly foreign agents for Croatia paid by foreign government? You must register as a foreign agent with the federal government and there were the the the fact that certain officials did not register with Vera or under Farrah Right Gay, Robert Mueller. What well
I use this as a weapon to charge people key initially believed were going to tell him about this active conspiracy that was in steel dossier violating this law, which has significant penalties among them. Call man of work, Michael Flynn, Fer a contract with Turkey, regain the deputy upon a metaphor in and so these that's the thing about animal will remember them. Just remember that wind metaphor was first indicted. His lawyer said This will never stand because he's being indicted on the basis that he violated Farrah at in the sixty
here is that Farrah has existed. There have been maybe for prosecutions, some like that said, of course, but six front in the course of sixty years for violating mass, which could be the violation of which could with would under almost all circumstances, reviewed, as at the very most a misdemeanor. You know that, even even if the law says it's a felony, it's like something. You didn't file the paperwork right in some way, so that the fact that this was the central that initially the central charge. Something that matter for its own lawyers. Viewed with horrified sceptics some, because there was no precedent for bringing basically, basically in the entire, fourth, the federal government down on a guy for not Frankfurt, not filing the paperwork that But if he was a foreign agents of Ukraine, there
case manifolds case of Ukraine right, it enables the earliest memoir Andrew Weissmann, smaller deputy states that when he first gets on the special Peters tamed. It goes to the fair office at the Justice Department and discovered that there is no one there who is charged with actually investigating violation of this- and he is like hot dog- maybe we can. We can really wrong with this thing, because the practice had been for generations and Washington that violation, so the foreign agents law was not something that was going to be dealt with by the criminal arm of the FBI, paperwork violation you had. You know, maybe pay a fine, but that was about it without the irony in the Dolan case. Them is that he is guilty of exactly the same thing based on based on cha crosses, invest,
asian. He is guilty of exactly the same thing for which man afford. That's not the only thing metaphor dead red several right was accused of embezzlement are convicted as acts of Asia and another thing to add embezzlement. So, but in this case he was convicted of fairer and send Michael Flint. Fairer, was used against Michael Flynn to control Michael Flynn, and there is there is Charles Darwin who seems to be a kind of behind the scenes figure of immense importance in this entire matter, and he himself the violator of fairer and no doubts as to violator all of the other Mahler indictments where for violations affair. That did not involve Russia. He's a russian unregistered foreign agents which makes it even better- and you know a person who is some kind of new could say in the Clinton inner circle. He was the chairman go Clinton's spats. It uses campaigns in the nineties. In his two elections he was appointed to
stay departments, Advisory board on public diplomacy by Bill Clinton, renominated. I think that your mamma, he was somebody who was involved in the Clinton campaign, and here he was providing rumours that here heard in his dealings in Russia to dance Anko. Who then gives it to Christopher Steel? And this then? finds its way into the steel dossier and has the FBI and the? U S, media, after trumpets elected, chasing its tail for two and a half years so again to separate these strands. Charles Darwin is a democratic operative and he is connected in some way or other problem. Plea to the Clinton campaign that were neither the indictment says if ye, while Avis Volunteer, he appeared on calls with The rapporteur is, he was somebody who was involved in the cap, it so the Clinton campaign, or some or
operatives the Clinton campaign engage this for confusion, GPS to higher. Christopher Steel, to investigate these ideas, Trump is, and the term campaign are in boots with Russia at its eyes, I must point out that this is part of a pattern with everybody involved in the steel dossier and the construction of this narrative just to go through a couple. Other data points
Are we have Charles Darwin, unregistered foreign agent for the russian federation? Christopher steel has a separate contract to work for a legendary Pasqua. Who is one of the major oligarchs who is mentioned in the Mulder report, as well as the Senate form of intelligence committees reporting, as somebody who you know, played a role behind the scenes in the interference he is working for? The repast got to try to find money that Paul Manifold owes Dara Pasqua said he's trying to recover the money he is working for Europeans.
Incidentally, this information never appears in the steel dossier, which is extremely suspicious. Now it's got a fusion gps. Fusion, GPS is long time. Client was Natalia vessel, the sky, it that's! The russian lawyer who had a fifteen minute meeting with DAWN Junior and Jared Kirshner and Paul man afforded Trump Tower and twenty sixteen to offer dirt that was produced by you, got it fusion, GPS, on eleven. So all of these people who are behind the narrative about trumps, dalliances and collusion and conspiracy, the leverage, the Kremlin, over overtime are themselves in business with various russian figures.
safer that irony, everybody. Ok, that is incredible, that it really does look at times like it was projection on the part of the Hilary campaign when they accused their opponent of being engaged in a conspiracy with Russia. Now I wrote almost a year ago, fur commentary apiece called framed and guilty which got into the various ways in which Donald Trump does have some serious blame for it. You know what he was doing in saying with regards to Russia, but none of it was ever coming close to this conspiracy, which we were told five years ago were almost five years ago. with something that would lead to impeachment and worse for the present. So let's just let's go the circle on then triple dealing so Dolan,
has a business relationship, privacy relationship in a relationship with eager bunch, Anko just indicted for blind to the FBI. Dolin tells then Genco stuff about Tromp rumours about Trump, including about the p tape deal dataset. Burma's cagey disregard Whizzing says is that Darwin was in the hotel and was given a tour of the room, were Trump staid and rising asked about The one thing we know that Dolan was the source of which he made up. He deceived and trinkets It was an item that said that matter for it was pushed out by Corey Lewandowski and twenty sixteen and he claimed to dancing
other. He had this from this Great republic and insider when in fact he had done it from reading the newspaper. ok, everybody lying, so that put the point here is that is that dolen, it turns out is a source for stuff in the dossier. Yes, that steel, effective. The queen was gotten from senior official Emmy email in the language of the dot, the and whatever the collation of the was somehow coming. the highest levels of intelligence, yes, and that in fact, it came from the sky. Dolen who was retailing a robot to dance shank, go who then told it to steal who then put it in the report.
right in some cases, period bright period. In some cases the indictment tantric I just make stuff up. For example, the confirming report about the ongoing and active conspiracy came from someone named Sergei millions This is a minor real estate developer in the United States is a born in Russia. Somebody who formed created something called the russian American or- U S, russian Chamber of Commerce, which is kind of a weird organization. Why don't Franco claims is that million confirmed to him the fact of conspiracy? In fact he never spoke two million he tried to get in touch with him through linked in and couldn't get him on the phone, but he decided to sort of make up and put it in a sealed off and apparently nobody caught it or checked it. So in some cases done trackers just making up these allegations, but just as I sure, no one
and you all would remember- certainly Million- was like an active investigation for the media for like the first year and a half of the trumpet Ministration people believed that the walls were closing in. So that's, like you know, a total made up thing that I guess you know it was. It was this information that then people took extremely seriously for the first year or so of the trumpet illustration it can. I just jump in and then at that point The media collaboration on this story is as yet led to zero retraction of all of this. We know now that this new information, and, in fact- Eric Wimple the washing poster going around asking yes. So now, what were you going to do about all these stores and that the amount of corporate media, bureaucratic responsiveness, is
kind of astonishing you're like we're looking into yeah we're we're gonna. Look into wigglin look into it. I will be shocked if we have a single retraction of any of these stories, which is exactly what they should do if they find that the sources were were corrupted or or untruthful. Look I like been smoothly New York Times. An old friend of mine he's an old friend of realise media reports New York Times does a great job was the editor Buzzfeed in twenty seventeen when Buzzfeed published the dossier. This is that biggest story in media. I don't know, what's going to happen at the Times cause, I don't help them right about this and ordinarily he would jump on this, but he, of course, is a figure in the story himself and the interesting thing about the media ridge of the steel dossier. Is that a buzzfeed across the Rubicon? I said this: the time and is even truer now, as you can see- that dust it was being retailed all over Washington in August September and October of twenty sixteen and nobody
in mainstream media would touch it because they looked at it and said, nothing corroborated here, I don't know what I'm looking at. I don't see any proof of anything and as the Obama, people themselves, not the Clinton campaign people. What is the Obama people themselves from what we can tell said when it was brought to them? I dont want to touch this with a ten foot. Pole if we start playing around in this, we're going to help get Trump elected because we're we're we're down just to have like throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks against them and we better keep our distance and the media kept their distance all that remains for me to have their distance until January. Twenty seventeen when Buzzfeed published the dossier and then suddenly all hesitancy that they had about the dossier went out the window and it became the route source for things, and this is the most important element of Eliza reporting. I think that does it became
This was all this incredibly circular way became the evidence. That was used to allow for the vice a court to investigate. that happened before that are before us. We published it. Ok, foreign firms are okay, so, but but but but the renewal of the face, a warrant in the case of Carter. Page, if I remember correctly, was there was this. Kind of weird thing where, where the renewal together, ninety days of better whatever cited news stories that were themselves source to the dossier, I do I remembering that, rather than that's that's right, there was ok. There were two pieces during the campaign. One was Michael S, cough wrote, a piece the which was true that the FBI was investigating a trip that part or page you taken in Moscow. He didn't reference the dossier or you know any of the stuff, but it
It was clearly he did his on reporting after he got this breathing and he and and his accomplice talk about them by the way is crop is one of the few members of the media. But who has had a kind of degree of sort of looking at this in saying, wait a second, this dossier was born. Can I he's a lot better than some here. Some time collaborated gave a corn who, right before the election for Mother Jones, writes a piece about this widely respected former British, and there is a british, a former western intelligence official who has done all this US stooping and come up with all these disturbing things about Donald Trump, somewhat, also bolstered by a letter from thence in it, I think, majority leader. Are you read? Who wrote a letter to seems call me that Public saying I you know, and I know that there are all these things that you know you haven't mentioned the public about Donald Trump. It seems pretty obvious that Harry Reed was getting some info about from the Stasi as well, and I would just say on your point:
that Buzzfeed and everything like that. The difference was is that when it was just presented, two journalists, as we have this investigator to looked at the staff, you can't use his name. You can't attributed to this thing, but you're. Some tips it you should look into this verse is we know that the FBI is now investigating this, and once the media learns. The FBI has an active investigation, then it's after the races, because that's no longer we have with the youth. The media doesn't have to prove or show that these out patients are true. We just have to say that the F B, I think, some seriously enough to investigate, and that is what I believe, that this whole thing my dorm is doing is gonna come down to, which is what the the the Clinton campaign in twenty sixteen basically try to join up investigations or the imperence of investigations, to then retail to the press,
to then say that Trump himself was being investigated because, of course, Hilary was being investigated for her private email server, and it was the reopening of that instigation less than two weeks before voting day, that you know probably cost her the election. So the idea was that they had several approach It's not just through the steel dossier, which the F b I took seriously protective leadership of the F B. I took it seriously, not just in the surveillance warrant for Carter page, but also, as James call me wanted, to include this information in the intelligence community assessment on the russian interference, but there was also Michael Cashman, who is a lawyer for Perkins Kofi who worked for the Clinton administration.
campaign in this period, who generated a funny story about something called Alpha Bank, which is a russian bank. In its mysterious communications, with Trump organization servers, there was also Sidney Blumenthal and Coty sure who had their own private investigation, who were trying to interest people at the State Department and other? U S, government agencies and their research that showed various Trump Russia spirits is all of this was designed to maybe you could get a journalist. Did you know right in themselves? But, more importantly, if you could just get journalists to write that
FBI was investigating the serious thing. Then that was the cloud that they wanted to hang over Trump and it was unsuccessful really during the campaign. But boy did it work after Trump was elected and that's that's how we kind of dot where we ended up, which is that they wanted to see. The they want to lots C c, that silly apply, launch investigations and then have those investigations be reported by the media and once you get that current media environment. That's really all you need, and you can print the dossier you can say. Well, we don't know if it's true but the FBI's looking into it and that's when enough happen. So so this this is a very twisted, complicated issue that involves the way things are framed in the mainstream media. So for two years
name would gallery. You know, gallery a village Jason Leopold, a Buzzfeed Natasha Bertram of the Atlantic, the people at Mccluskey very places where what the way would be framed is investigators are looking into blah, and there would be this allegation without evidence or without proof. And without any substance you know, and without any substantiation, particularly in relation to thirty million, whom you mentioned earlier, and that the only thing that could be said is the sullen who was looking into this, but of course anybody can look into anything. The Mahler investigation could be said to her and, looking into anything, and then, when the mother investigations were go had well I just want to contrast this. I mean the Ague Eliza
percent right that you know once they once the media can announce investigation, they can run with it. But contrasted with the way that the media treated the revelation that that there is an FBI investigation. Two hundred biden- yes, They they they didn't run with. That did they now within IRAN with a big surprise there, that's active at the beach where there are two different issues here, right, social me: it companies suppressed the articles that were being published material about in your post about or by an aunt, with the line being pop promulgated, that three hundred by story itself, was an act of russian disinformation attend out designed to get to get Donald Trump elected was actually sort of. Like said as though there was any evidence that that was the case
it was out by this point. It was ok to say anything and yeah, so we have us or rogues gallery history here of media this behaviour in relation to all of this that the Durham it? Here's a german destination which is not designed to go after that is nonetheless painfully and, only exposing to the extent that even Eric Wimple in the wash is imposed, though we have a problem with the New York Times since its own rapporteur is complicit in the development of this entire narrative that that they're, not really gonna be able to avoid bury Meyer. A long time. Investigative journalist at the New York Times wrote a book about private intelligence firms and the role that have increasingly played in american life called spoke to bury Meyer. Has a piece in New York magazine this week about the disaster of the steel.
In and the end, the and the nature of dirhams exposure of this weird world in which opposition Search, has now become conflated with intelligence and and and really dirty tricks going on, in particular, at fusion GPS and play my own Zella growl. I not only is Ben, but with a friend of my butt Glenn Simpson, who runs who run Susan GPS, is an old friend of mine, and I for one time colleague, he's a very commentary phrase. I would consider Glenn Simpson at this point to be an ex friend of mine right. I mean I've never had. I haven't had any division from from from from from but but yeah I mean that this is a world. This is a classic sort of internal Washington
and Media World Glenn worked at the at work with me it inside then he went to the Wall Street Journal sort of like he's all mixed up, but then he ran up for proper. intelligence adviser reaffirm that then God, self of the whole idea. Think of fusion GPS was, they would develop information for the Clinton campaign. The Glen his sources and media, could then we tale to the media without the Clinton administration, without the Clinton campaigns? Fingerprints on it? That was the whole point of view GPS. His role in this entire business was to December information to destroy Trump with out the Clinton administration. Fingerprints on is that before bringing on Christopher steal the fusion GPS opposition research was largely correct. They did a lot of the work on trunk university. They did a lot of work on pal trump.
was using illegal aliens in his various properties and so forth, all of which was supported by public documents, and you know for a very brief period right where a from college knowledge nineteen. Eighty four, I work on opposition research, its effective when it's true the people, you know you you get paid more because you get true information, They unusual step was hiring a former spy to basically telling you Staff that was uncheckable, which is inside stuff from the
and what we ve learned from the Durham indictments is that it was uncheckable, because a lot of it was made up a lot of it was rumour and a bit of it came from democratic operative used to who is an unregistered foreign agents for Russia. Civil in that respect that that sort of that that was a new part of it. But I also think that there is another element to this, just taking a step back, which is that we know what those of us in the centre right have really noticed in the context of racing gender. What might be a sort of style of discourse where, if you descent even a little bit from what is this new essential truth and then you're, you're you're, not just a cracker, contrary in here
self part of an age of disinformation, your somebody who is out to you know undermine the faith in these vital institutions and things like that and that there are serious social penalties for that kind of dissent. Well, that's style of discourse existed around Trump in Russia before it became so prevalent after mauler and in a sort of during the Trump years on race engender it's the same kind of thing, which is that it wasn't just that there was the media was picking up on it, because the F B, I was looking into it, and became this kind of circular thing. It was also that, if Everybody said wait a second: can we take a step back you're? We sure this happened, then you yourself were like enabling the Russian take over of the? U S, government, and I mean I can't help but notice, but it similar to the rhetoric that we heard from black lives matter and twenty twenty that have you question defined the police.
then you were on the side of a George Floyd's killer, and that is another part of it as well, and I don't know if to blame social media or if that was just sort of the moment that were in in this country, but that was a real problem as well. Okay, They live to a fantastic some summation and you know you ve had a lot of sleepless nights dealing with this sort of thing, and I want to talk to you guys about sleepless nights and the coming holidays. because you know, if you could give anybody a present, I think the present to be giving them would be. The gift of a better nights sleep and that's why I want to talk to you and no one's factory about Balin Branch, the maker of pure organic patch. it's that make it truly special gift that's the holiday coming! So Now you have bowling branch sheets. What is your experience with them?
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hired narrative about Trump being an agent of of Russia was so hard to deal with. Was that if you assume just serve elementary good faith on the part of nationals working in a you know in an industry that you know my case. I've worked on. We worked in firm, you know almost forty years and I know that people are liberals have another bad. My other been bad journalists forever, like I start it at Time magazine nineteen eighty to one of the first things I had to do was fact check a report on the sovereign shooting the massacres by the legendary british journalist, Robert Fisk and every single detail in this story was met in the article that he wrote for the times of war and was made up. That was what our correspondent,
on the scene said he's like. I don't know where that would have been it, what they would. There is no intersection like that in the Sabra Camp, where he says there was a good really doing X, Y and Z, that and so like from the outset of my career. I know that there are bad apples, and so you do that, but I am struck by the fact that, was an entire network of reporters at. Is supported by liberals media institutions from CNN Teghmus NBC to everything else in this cross. Over from, on the one hand, reporting on things too. On the other hand, essentially expostulating about them are delivering opinions on them. Who said we presume that mauler was going to prove the trump and and and his campaign colluded with Russia and when the Mulder report finally came out after two and a half years and could find no such connection all they could find in the second half of the report were complex,
It is primarily a national are moments of which it appeared that people haven't told them the entire truth about. You know and questions attempting to create a perjury trap that that nobody then took a step back and said. Oh, my god, I got this wall. There were people who were sceptical of it from the beginning, Eli being one Byron, York being another Molly, Hemingway being a third others, some of them very ideological inclined themselves to try support trump against liberal media, but the the expense Where was the experience of people going? Oh, my god. I've just spent two years peddling garbage that was being according to my ear by people that I can't trust who didn't know it, it include like and most alimentary Adam chef. There's a grey July has a great review of Adam shifts book in.
In in commentary this sub self aggrandizing memoir. That doesn't deal with the fact that almost everything he said in relation to Trump for two years on MSNBC in other places was a lie. There's been no revisiting, there's been nothing, do you think? Does anybody think, as Christine pointed out, there will be some kind of an internal moral reckoning with the fact that lives were destroyed. Carter pages life was part We destroyed George Papadopoulos life was partially destroyed, other people who may be sleaze bags and you know. I don't like Michael Flynn and I think, he's disgusting, and I don't like Paul Manafort. Nothing is disgusting and I don't know anything about Rick Gates, but like eat, can't do this like this. Is America not supposed to do this to people? Is there going to be any kind of a reckoning or just words? memory, wholeness no number
will the bull there not be a reckoning. I think a good chunk of the media will go forward remaining certain that there was some conspiracy between the Kremlin and Trump that they should that they that just was still never quite got into its in article four, If I think the means and ends here is, that is the challenge with the mainstream media right now right if it suits a narrative end the means for getting. There are really not their business once they ve printed. Sorry, if it's on their side of the Isle. Of course. Now it's completely reversed. If you're, if your investigating something The Republicans high, but I mean I'm kind of shocked. I really do hope to see. I mean, if not full retraction at least. A visiting those stories say: ok now we have all this new information of this new indictments, let's let's look into it, but what is the incentive for them to do that right now? every little incentive and certainly not gonna, sell newspapers or sell digital prince of Group since the New York Times to be to be right.
Is it in their areas? During the trip over my seeing a little bit of it, I mean there was a washing impose new story which included the line that said calling into question. Even this newspapers coverage of the dossier is, of course, the Eric Wimple columns your times a few months back when bury Myers but came out published in a lengthy excerpt from it in the New York Times magazine. You know I write for Bloomberg and I certainly have been writing about this and we're seeing again at a kind of burying the dawn of a kind of new media environment where prominent writers on the laughed like clean, Green Wolden, Mattei YE be have been unrelenting. On this point- and I imagine that there are some people air ideological sphere that you know I can't help it. He now begin to maybe reflect I'm not predicting a wholesale May, a cop on MSNBC or CNN. I don't think that's gonna happen, but there is some signs that it's gotta be hard to
done now on the other side of this doorstep. Monopolise in his new documentary serious just had an hour with Christopher Steel HU. We stood by his work, who snowed by his. Can I say it's worse than a standing by his work, because when he was asked about specific allegations like that, you pity he says I think its eighty five percent likely or gave this percentage So let us use the new age so much man, if only someone had looked into this for three years, looking found sudden if we or how we get it would do to keep this. There was a tweet from ABC News, would save some all him a fraud and others call him a hero. We get there What really? Who is? Ok, Mallingham Europe? So no let me let me let me ask you this in relation to it like this was a failed intelligence, operation against Trump. I mean
can say that they were distracted. Mahler was a distraction, and so we do Trump couldn't really focus on to another stuff, because he was so obsessed with the you dealing with Mueller and all that, but they ran campaign, he did, he did get elected day. We have joined up the mother. the it didn't go anywhere. He was impeached over, something that had no relation to this whatsoever. He was Should Ukraine and hit in and behaviour towards Ukraine in twenty nineteen, after after smaller investigation was concluded. That was the first impeachment this Peter request relating to two January. Sixth, this was that this was a disaster. This focus on Russia and Trump they disaster. I think in large measure, because it was not explain, trumps behaviour with it
The option of him saying nice, things about Putin was not reflected in Trump policy. Trade policy was As well as we ve said from the outset, hot toward Russia, the palace, was hawkish. The language was bizarrely friendly, but the policy was hawkish if they could approved at the trumpet ministrations policy towards Russia was uncustomary and oddly friendly, thus suggesting that Russia got something quid pro quo in exchange for it suppose it into turn to the twenty sixteen election there might have been some substantiation to the idea that Trump was a russian agent of influence, but there was none. Why why cling to the narrative give it up drop it, throw it away, because if you want to stop him in twenty twenty four, this is not the path to continue to go down as a director outlining they are throwing it away by not performing these retrospectively dar moving
but if they were to engage in some sort of a reflection on their own conduct than they would be adding fuel to the fire, why would they want to do that? They are moving on Pretending none of this is happening. Ok, fair enough Aramis, I mean, I think, there's one thing. That is that I think that there will be a public reporting in any Mccarthy's written this than, I think is correct. There will be a public report from Durham and that public report, I think, will be very will be damning to the media. It'll be damning to the Clinton campaign will be damning to Perkins Coie the law firm, fusion, GPS, Christopher Steele. It won't be good at all we're starting to see that from these indictments and
Tat in some way can be a touchstone for the historical record, even if it will be too much at this in this moment for the people who are kind of at the height of the media, now to read it and internalize its lessons, they're probably will not be as many trump fans. Thank you. No high level entitlements in a boy in bar the former journey general said, that neither Biden or Hilary were subjects in this investigation or Obama. So you're not going to see the kind of thing that Trump has said you know would become and a lot of people in Ireland are coming in. That. Did you not see the law and the Justice Department turned against? The democratic party in the way that so many Democrats had hoped that the Justice Department LAW would be turned against the prompt administration. None of those things are going
I've been what you will do get as a kind of correction of the record, and I just one other kind of point, its related to this week. When I mean I know it was a mistake, I listen to Peter struck on the law, fair podcast over them, and talking about all of this and the wider struck is the FBI agent, who was materially involved in the smaller investigation as well as well, and also the FBI, prosper right and then he was taken. Yeah. That's right, so we ve twenty sixteen. He was well. The FBI agents authorized to investigate the Trump administrations potential connections to Russia in the crossfire hurricane inventors, and they say that you know the malware. There is no mention of the steel dossier in the Mulder report. So what are we talk? about that's an indictment of the smaller team. The fact of the matter is that
smaller has a lot of detail of things that he didn't charge. For example, there was an effort by Republicans in twenty sixteen to try to find the deleted emails on Hilary private server. Then effort is show that there was classified information and then too obviously get that in front of the FBI, so they get savers, there's an investigation into Hilary misuse of classified information. It's under the espionage act,
in twenty. Sixteen, if you listen to people like Mark Levin radio show he would constantly bring up this idea of the espionage act in this. Isn't that in the other, this is exactly exactly what the Clinton people were doing. They were trying to manufacture the cloud of this investigation and the fact that the Mueller team didn't mention any of that, in my view, is evidence that them that Mueller himself and his deputies shows highly partisan attorneys for this project that they were going to produce a document that was as favorable to the Democrats as possible, and even with that, with those who speak state, they could not manufacture a charge of collusion or conspiracy or get any of these initial charge.
Stick, so they point to the indictment on the foreign agents, registration act and things like that. But in fact the fact that Mahler ignored all of this is why there needs to be the sky John Durham, to investigate it, and I would say that of all the people, all the attorneys in the Justice Department to do it. Dorm is really a very good choice, not he's known for two things: one is he investigated the CIA after the allegations of torture in the black sites, and he came away any didn't, prosecute any dna officers in that, but before that he was the bull dog that the justice Barbara brought in to discipline the FBI agents, particularly in passing that New England that were working with Whitey soldier in the nineteen eighties
and back home in what way Bulger was the Burma was the Boston Crime Boss, who was simultaneously the winter l gang. Yes, who is simultaneously left behind foreman and therefore was shielded from from prosecution for his own at multiple murders and and hundreds and thousands of crimes committed by gang in his name because he was having the FBI and local law enforcement in from valuable information on the italian mafia. Now I should say: what's interesting here: is that powers and that dorms indictments kind of portray the FBI as being the victims of these Clinton campaign deceptions, but dorms reputation is that he is one of these guys who was?
willing to take on Justice Department and while the FBI, in something that really mattered in the ninety nine days, and in that respect, I do think that it's not gonna stick tests, a sort of has restarted here from democratic. They say how is this bill bar appointed special counsel and he somehow tainted and he's he's just doing this to to appease tromp? I don't think you can. You can credibly make that argument about door and there has been any real leaks from his shop
and he's kind of procedure. On that, so I mean we're getting a taste of. I think what we're going to find an assertive final narrative report, and maybe that probably won't affect the judgments remote that the man culpas in the moment, but at least it's a touchdown so that one we can look back in a few years, maybe after pumping used to seeing and begin to maybe get back some sort of normalcy and SAM Mueller Lakes. Thank you so much for joining us Saturday and four slash eight Christina know. I'm John Podhoretz keep the candle burning.
Transcript generated on 2021-11-09.