On today's podcast, why liberals can't let the Mueller probe go and why Trump fans wrongly think the report is good for him, and why, in spite of everything, we still need a meritocracy. Give a listen.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome to the commentary magazine podcast today is Monday April, twenty in two thousand and nineteen, I'm John path towards the editor of commentary, the seventy eight year old, monthly of intellectual analysis, political probity and call ro criticism from a conservative perspective. We invite you to join us a commentary magazine dot com where we give you a few free, reeds and then asked you subscribe. Ninety, maybe five for a digital, Subscription and twenty men only and five for an all access subscription, including our beautiful monthly magazine in your mailbox
eleven times a year. I hope you had the further listen our listeners who celebrate or observe. I hope you have this and pace of, and that and that you're saviours did not go on two long or conversely, if what you love is a really really long, sadder that Europe safer when went on longer than you could even possibly have wished for so with me. As always. I also see that no Rossman high now I John Senior predator, a brunwalde hi hi John and senior writer, Christine Rosen from Washington, high Christine, so where four days were t plus four from the release of the Mulder report we did most of our last oh and the Miller report. To now we have really is the question of the reaction to the Mulder report, though I know it give me your own quick, quick overview are so at the risk of basic
doing everything that I'm writing of bright now for Harry magazine that come true spoiling way on post there's been to reactions one from the programme side and one from me, Andy Trump sign that are, I guess, indicative of the the partisan extremes on the programmes sides response it sort of a test them at their head. Democrats have really failed to manage expectations around this report because it demonstrated pray thoroughly that, while there was no conspiracy, obviously to conspire with a hostile foreign power, the Non state intelligence agencies that we're working on its behalf, the president and everybody on down, was pretty welcoming of that behaviour. They were not repulsed by the notion that they were being assisted by a foreign power. They sort of embraced it Mauro, where the president would have. Fifthly, subverted this investigation had it not been for the fact that nobody listens to him, that's something that anybody should be too proud of, in fact give all of them, and then
National Review Road, pretty smart peace talking about how, in the absent a crisis, this is just kind of disturbing, but in a crisis situation which these non responsive, unelected elements of the President's administration are simple, ignoring the president is something that could be really deeply problematic, very troubling and I could have some real sit in a real, terrible implications in a crisis situation which time is a factor. This is I think that the programme elements are wrapping their arms around and touting is as evidence of their vindication and sort of phone. There damning themselves with their own faint pray. Ok, Cellarway, so innocent ones. Ok, that's so the rope or it, I think it is unquestionable. If you read the report, as I said in the blood in a blog posts on our side, the report, it is a- is an exclamation of trump in this sense, which is that the people who wrote it clearly hate him so much and are so disgusted by him in every particular
that, if they could have found the slenderest of reeds on which to say that he had colluded conspired with Russia and thus has given some. Aid to the possibility of impeachment. They will have done so in a heartbeat, so the tone of the report is unbelievably aggressively hostile, particularly in the second part, which is the stuff that deals with obstruction. The other part is that it is understandable why it is so hostile if you were spending two years going through the process of investigating this, because trumps behaviour understandable in the largest sense, if he believed that he was being persecuted unfairly, but not understandable in terms of somebody holding the most powerful office in the world and the most important job in the world was just unconscionable amidst terror.
The report is terrible. It makes him look terrible, it's awful it's awful, they went reads it. You know Hasta, which means that the anecdotes in it, assuming they are not fabricated, which I don't think they are just make you and credibly uncomfortable with the fact that the guy is the present. The United States. As I say, maybe if you looked through it entirely through the lens of him thinking, this was all unfair. That's one thing, but then if he thinks it's entirely unfair, asking p bull to lie in the big. The biggest anecdote right as the anecdote about them began his lawyer. There were a couple of years now, but the big this I would say that the juciest one let's say, is that Mcgann theirs. Fourth, it says again that Trump told began to fire Mahler and Trump goes too again and says issue
statements say it's not true in these, like. I can't do that. You told me to fire him, and then trumps as when did I say, fired debate were say fire and then began its denotes than trumps Trump says no good lawyer ever takes note, so he's directing somebody to lie on his behalf who, if, if you were to lie on his behalf, a be indicted for perjury and be be disbarred from his profession. Only interest of of being loyal to Trump, who is our no loyal, who has aside from simply being his boss and being president, has earned no loyalty from again so that just that bad right, but but his eyes, I think it is screw way, makes the point that Trump is not impede trouble because the thing on which they wanted to impeach him. They could not find the guy
and to do so despite a desperate hunger and desire that gets us to the second part. So again, if its Democrats had more manage expectations, not prejudge this process, and so let's see what the rope comes out within this comes out. The president says: I'm completely absorbed you're of any wrongdoing that they might have said the grounds on which to make the argument that they're making so the democratic grass roots now has demonstrated that it didn't matter what the report would have found. The recommendations would have always been the same. Witches impeachment. The democratic grass roots, as indicated by an exemplified by the press, wants to see impeachment proceedings on the basis of what the mullah were pout report found regarding obstruction which an obstruction per se but attempted obstruction. I would say more than that I would say I was seeing stuff all week about how the reports
there was no collusion or conspiracy with Russia, but it details that there were no ten twelve people who had contacts with Russia. Therefore, if you multiply the number of tax by the number of people, there were like more than a hundred contacts and the fact that people had contact people from Russia is itself impede. It is itself implanting that that's sad Abrams, internet or now, but it's not just set Abrams and territory that was like having imposed that vocs in other reserve. A couple of things in the Washington Posts opinion section this idea that got bread that any any community mission with somebody from Russia is pre facie evidence. That Trump was that they, when a conspiracy with Russia, is fast aiming to me, because you know I'm the anti Russian as you can possibly get, but
unless we are in a declared war with Russia having a conversation with a Russian is not treason period. Yeah that's the stuff, I saw all over the all over social media all over the weekend in an indefinite, the Washington Post in some coms acting just two If the whole collusion. Half of the report that didn't exist, judges just dismissing just just staying on message about collusion Christine one of the interesting things is the in the rear action is that I think we all come correctly share these sense that there is just a huge amount of unseemly behaviour from Trump and many allies. But an seemliness. However, distasteful is not criminal obstruction and that's basically, what the report said. I'm kind of
needed by the focus on all of the people who, in the administration, refused to do what Trump either implied or suggested they do in terms of obstruction, because those people are all gone now. Some of the questions I have going forward is isn't just what the Democrats in Congress are going to do with regard to possible impeachment proceedings, but what we think about, if those forward, how trumps administration will behave when that happens, because he's got in place now more people who are perhaps a little more morally flexible than the ones that we saw before. One of the people who is implicated in that situation was court Lewandowski without Give declined, took to. Execute an order by the President out of an instinct for self preservation so I mean as long as that prevails than well. That limit Lewandowski story is very, were that's the story, the Trump told Lewandowski to tell sessions to unrecognised himself, and then Lewandowski, Thought
ass. My friend, you know Joe smiles like Dearborn, who worked for workforce, sessions. They asked the guy's gonna do that, so maybe you know, and then I reminded him in Dearborn said: the Ultra church, all China Custody and these orders Witherspoon and dropping the situation, I think, in the end, the interesting portrait of Trump that that arises from this as somebody who not only hadn't, he worked in politics before but he had never in his life worked outside of a context in which he was not the sole proprietor and in which case everybody who worked for him. His interests did not divulge Dixon diverge any way, shape or form from his companies interests or for anything else in this idea that you know in government, you hire people they to take an oath to the constitution. They can't just
do whatever it is that you tell them, because they our legal risk for doing so. This is not just. These are not private transactions that are being worked on. This is the work of the. This is the work of the public servants who administer our government, and he I build. My guess is that now two and a half close two and half years into the presidency, he now sort of get this in a that. It was impossible for him to get because, of course, not only did he have the circuit experience that he had no, that but a book, but the particulars of his own psyche were this notion that somebody I told them that error colder, you know was was Obama's wing, and so that means the attorney general. Is your Roy Conan he's there to protect you and then, if somebody says well, you know it's not quite the way who works. He doesn't. You know he wasn't
curious enough about the way the world works, even getting into presidency, to sort of makes sense of a new set of realities, including its like. If the from organization has ever gone public and become a publicly traded corporation, you know a lot of the things that he could have expected from his people. He couldn't, he would not have been to expect if it was a publican incorporation, because then he's not to put either the stockholders other proprietor and and there's a whole different set of laws and principles governing the behaviour of the corporation. The people who work for it. Well anything this, I think, that's a very good point, because it touches on something that anyone who watches any White House is always questioning in terms of staffers, which is what is a definition that working assumption and working definition of loyalty. I think Trump brought with him from the beginning, a very different notion of
national loyalty than perhaps previous private presidents have and that it has to change for him or it will be doubled down on rights of that's. The question is: are these staffers who are there now? Is there a version of Trump loyalty that they now understand in the wake of the Mulder report? That is more akin to what his most rapid? the voting fans are alike or is it more like the professional loyalty that we see, which is, as is no suggested, often glossed over the little bit of self preservation by the people who sign onto these administrations? It's it's the truth. The particular brand of trump loyalty by his suffers is a fascinating thing to me. I have to say so much of this, though I think has to do with this with the the the situation itself, at the faith in you, The idea that true may now get it I I am somewhat persuaded by them. At the same time, I feel as if we're
need to be backed into a corner again like this. You know a similar like have this world coming down on him, accusing him of this of this made her thing that that, in fact, you didn't do I I could see him going going in the same correction, all over again handling it just as badly and then perhaps but not maybe we should move into the into the town, A Tory aside from the stuff I said about how they so wanted to find collusion and couldn't Mahler staff and brushes stuff, but that the the Democrats and the left r R. It seems to me in a state of delusion, four days after the release of the Molitor report that is quite striking at some professional politicians, particularly the two leading members of the house. Pelosi employer, have both made it clear that they think impeachment is off the table, that it would be self destruct. More than just that,.
During Adler. They had a judiciary that we're not going on this. Original shortcomings have oversight. No annoyingly Cummings was closer cloak, Cummings was very half in half you ve got. It doesn't matter, but ok, so bunch of people said this is not on, and so is quote because he was political. But he's essentially said that we have to be very clear that we have to be there. I think we have to be very careful here and said that he didn't think most Americans believed that the president had executed attacks on democracy and therefore impeachment was unwise, ok, so, but then we so we have now the phenomenon which is an interesting phenomenon, one worth crediting that the the
polling, suggests and we'll see where the polling is this week. That you know of significant majority of Americans are against impeachment. I think it's five thousand seven hundred and forty and that number could go up this is before, but I think before the release of the report with leading Democrats saying they don't want to and then we ate so we have two forces still pushing right. One is what you might call the liberal, the activist class and the liberal left commentariat, who read the report and say it makes even did, makes it even clearer that Trump must be impeach removed from office such Charles Blow of the New York Times. That's around ten or fifteen different people, and then you have the sir activists clever than you have this of the
moneyed class, the activists class, which is the people who have made their living now for a couple of years off Trump paranoia right that you mentioned set Abrams and before that the sub weirdo at the University of New Hampshire, who, I think is still now, is now in number fourteen hundred of his tweed storm about the Mulder Report or something ass they saw their tweets from was in the four twenties and it had something to do with his musical tastes. Ok, so I'm not a german either that this is a guy by the way who have a two hundred thousand notable contract and there's a big book. Even gotta boards immobile and see his book on white terms should be impeaching older. So it's not as though his madness, which I think is an and on display for everyone to see hasn't, has improved. You know lucrative and made him a well known person when he was deservedly obscure before, but so you have the womb culture like the intellectual class of the left,
believing that the report justifies impeachment and removal, the politicians going woe and then some of the politicians going whoa whoa whoa get off this train. Okay, we need to focus on Lake B, Trump and other ways and. Still, by the way, it's not as though those people don't want to continue on the fishing expeditions right looking for whatever bad stuff, they can that's what the tax return stuff is about. Others now going to be months and months of litigation about whether or not Congress can should or should be able to or will or get get their hands on trumps tax returns by the I would just like to intercede is here and say that this is one of those circumstances in which people are because of their interest. In one specific thing are threatened
everybody, civil liberties- we do not want it that the that politicians and everyone can get their hands on individuals tax returns at will. Tax returns are our personal leave. This is our deepest darkest per matters, and people are worried about Alexa you're worried about Lex worry about, descended the House Judiciary Committee. You know by calling up the IRS and say you know, I'd really like to see a green worlds. Tax returns, he what are really nasty piece about me. I really like it. So we have no Rossman wrote a terrible thing about me. Soak it would you just send me overstocked return, so I can see you know what you know how, but she gave to charity and then leak how he didn't give enough for a gay with us or give to this group or whatever. This is the slippery ass of slopes. I understand that it has been a convention that people that politicians have been giving up their tax returns publicly forever have said that I don't care,
Giving politicians the right to access tax returns at will is a hugely dangerous precedent. Ok, that's so briefly on that dynamic which is about to prevail in the in the Democratic Party, is, I think, is probably the most fascinating. So you have the grassroots saying you have to have impeachment the causes are secondary. The impeachment is the most important thing you have the political class sang with smartly that that's not the right way to go, not because they they don't desire impeachment, but because Congress is is acutely aware one they have to demonstrate high crimes and misdemeanors constituted by attempted obstruction of justice, which is a very nuanced arguments, going to get very legal and very complicated quickly and won't turn on boat very quickly. Similarly, it puts the spotlight on Congress very unhappy our institution and takes it away from the twenty twenty race in the democratic parties. Eventual nominee, which is gonna, be the more popular avenue from which to mitigate the case against the president.
Smart about that, but the demands are such on the democratic parties. Twenty twenty field, and so broad and so vast that somebody has to capture this boutique issue, and it wasn't long before we saw someone Elizabeth Warrant came out, said I'm. I demand that the House inaugurate impeachment proceedings now, because it's a smart thing to do, but because it captures that issue for her, where nobody else is willing to do it, giving people a quarry Booker who couldn't be trailing more Poles and is really lagging fundraising, declined to endorse this course of action, because its politically stupid, but it might so give you good news like Lord too, can I do say by the way that we were wrong. Like six months ago, we talked about or form their whenever we said before the elect. We have this conversation. If the Democrats, when will they impeach trump- and I think everybody around the table said, we would then a word that it with that the logic of the Democratic Party was going this direction, but here's ultimately where this year this has to go because the
we'll be unresponsive to this, then the ultimate logic of this argument is to campaign against the House Democrats as democratic, by a bunch of quiz links, they're, not gonna, listen to the demands of the people and obviously not going to defend the rule of law. So after not only campaign against Donald Trump but campaign. Again, Ella Democrats, we, but also welcome to twenty two have always agreed bubblegum when they dwell with, but I'm just curious John about that points. So what happened? What what wide? Why did it stop? Why did change direction the sentiment? Well, I think I don't know that's an interesting question what it! What do you think? I think that the election of success in the election itself had some kind, a slightly sobering effect in other words, the argument that we have to get him out of there. Orbs it's a fascist country. Suddenly the voters did what they wanted them to. It may be that that was left as our age range, which, by the way again. A kind of miraculous
the expression of the virtue of of the of the French is right, which is that there was a kind of impotence, rate crazed, you know Ray Jim Terror and fear, and then, when the people got a chance to express themselves, they express themselves in it constitutes surely appropriate a precise manner and made it clear that the political realities of twenty sixteen were not static. Es I don't know or that the thing was going on and on and on and it wasn't delivering. I mean that was the other thing. Is it's not for people paying attention the Mahler probe, I'm sorry did denied with all that stuff. Everyone kept saying. Well, we don't know what Mahler knows and he's got a map of his head and while it turns out every we knew everything Mahler knew there is nothing half of this report. The footnotes go to not
grand jury, cataloguing of washing, let's watch but to news stories. They did. The grass can reflect on that two weeks as yet, because looking so back a little bit back to the rights reaction to this sort of situation, this has been the the day in which to settle all family business for a lot of the anti anti trump right which has been, an unleashing, a torrent of abuse on reporters and saying that the notion that a lot of stuff was already well known in the press is nonsense, because the context in which these reports were released was that this is Donald Trump colluding with Russians, and this is the smoking gun, guess, contextual. We know he managed expectations in the press. The substance of these reports, a lot of them really did die in this way. Will we already knew? We already knew about them again stuff. We already knew about a lot of stuff, I'm so yet, when you reading volume, one of this report, and even some of owing to a lot of it didn't come as a surprise to reporters, had been doing a little bit of a sordid, perhaps victory lap, but its kind.
Do any of them. The reaction from the right to delete the the anti anti trump right to go after the press for a term of their behaviour here, as is more than a little bit, What we have to villains right, we now have two on unquestioned acts of journalistic malfeasance that that have to be accounted for, but we have the Mccluskey story claiming that Cohen. That implies that they proved that Cohen men in Prague with a russian right and then the second was the butt tweed story by the horribly discredited Jason Leopold. Now on his third or fourth in out false story. Saying that Trump told CO into lie about the term tower meeting which Mahler denied the night that the story came out and which is his debunked in the Malo report. Specifically. Those two stories- I wouldn't we see them Eclat, U story was a bombshell. It was a bombshell when it came out and then, as
no other journalistic institution was able even to come close to confirming it a kind of just fake, it by the you now by the side of the road and Leopold. Of course, you know that story was discredited that night, but Buzzfeed few to retract still refuses to retract and and people still site it. That's part of the thing here, so there were these two that was those are two huge things. The interesting question is why why, in the New York Times taking his victory lap on the story did the week before the election saying after much investigation, there are no clear ties between the Trump campaign in Russia, member that now notorious story that the left went totally insane about in. I think the fur we give November twenty. Sixteen. That said, we there there are no deal. There are no connections between the I'm campaigner, Russia G. That was right.
That turned out to be the most right story of all. I don't see you now. I dont see age and ended Dean Paquette everything was doing it three dance about that story because acting as though the term campaign had had ties with Russia lead to a two million, Sir Population increase for them. Our times denounced huge marketing it further I'm so they actually, they actually had this thing their rights before and do not want to take credit for it. Here's what I want to take credit for, however, you guys, I won't take credit for using the quip, toothbrush, I use this morning. I will use tonight user you every day of my life, so one of the most important things we do for health everyday, brushing their teeth. Yet most of us don't do it properly. Quip is the better Electra toothbrush created by dentists and designers. Quip was designed to make brushing your teeth more so affordable and even enjoyable.
It sends to the site: migrations del enough on your sensitive gums, a built in two minutes. Tyner pulses every thirty seconds to remind you and us which sides helping guy to full and Clean, a multi use cover amounts to your mirror, love that love it's right there and sounds to slide over your bristles are on the go, brushing brush heads automatically delivered on a dentist recommended schedule, every two months or just five bucks, and you know what I did I saved my new brush had to change it when pass over came so that I didn't have a hum its brush. On my non summits, teeth, and if you don't know what that means, trust me. That means I'm going to Heaven, because I, as I did I quit, is one of the first electric toothbrushes accepted by the American Dental Association and as thousands of five star verified views, so get it just twenty five bucks, you gotta get quipped outcomes, less commentary right now you get your first refill pack for free with a quick lecture toothbrush. You could say
that first refill pack for next year's pass over. If you want to follow me or you can just do it when you have two brief fill it, that's your first refill pact, free at G, T you IP dotcom, Slash commentary. I write so Noah. Make fun of Elizabeth warrant? I already did a little bit I'll do more. So, yes, sir, she comes out as being the first Billy, imprudent Democrat to emerge this impeachment strategy, which ultimately, I think, as we said in the earlier segment, will pit Denmark, some twenty twenty side against House Democrats ultimately for during the party, but securing for Elizabeth worn, some a family I'll advantage in the new site that she has so far been unable to secure
Elizabeth warrant is touted in the press as having a really policy oriented campaign. She drops a white paper about every two days on this or the other progressive wishlist item, but their incredibly superficial and silly. I mean a lot of Democrats really really want it to be possible to have a wealth tax in this country like we had they haven't in France and Sweden, but its very frankly, unconstitutional, unenforceable entirely, but likely unconstitutional constitutional, because it pretty much violates the sixteenth amendment as a tax on wealth and, in other words, Ex expropriated property, and not attacks on a transaction like the income tax or nowhere literally. Sixty amendments says that it is illegal to levy taxes on income and when the only the word income appears in the six amendments and the Supreme Court upholds Well taxes, inheritance taxes, their taxing the transaction and that the wealth itself,
but it really Dell's into the details of the policy proposal. It just sort of sits there in the everybody touts. This is being this wonderful, laudable funding mechanism which, by the way, would amount to about half the national budget when year about two trillion dollars we and about four trillion dollars in a year. It's not this big pool money that everybody thinks it even though two trillion as a lot over a deck over a decade. It's not really, but ton and then she comes out today with her her latest policy proposal, which is essentially to eliminate debt. I mean that sounds great right. We're just gonna student loans, yeah That guy decline to actually make the distinction there, because we really did the distinction- is a fine one when you get down into it. So the notion here is that soon loan that rules- should we be all, but forgiven up to fifty thousand dollars for people who make less than a hundred thousand dollars and then up to two hundred thousand dollars every three dollars you make up to two hundred thousand dollars. You have a declining series of of debt, so you can essentially forgive,
and then also college is gonna, be free, free tuition, so uh. You know that if she too, if you don't like that, she's got more cause. There's really utterly until there to anything of a rational or objective here is just essentially thrown out something little generate some traction somewhere and it's it's really enjoyable. That does not work let's try their money, although there she wants says she wants this is this is a big issue for my buddy millennia procedure, but they're not interested in order with warned if they wanted to get free, anything that can give didn't, get Bernie Sanders and go full socialists, but this is her. This is her millennium version of the fanned answer I she's gonna wave in and around their hoping that somebody finds that appealing and it's it's it's actually sparks. I think she is more likely to spark a kind of generational war as if, if you're, only going to target soon Mon Dead, and everybody else come all the older generations comestible. Why not more got about me? What about me? I had decent work three job when
by the way, is why not making the distinction there's no limiting, principally removing you're, not you're, not allowed to say that Elizabeth worn is not likeable has it that access that access right right. What, but then I oppose this question. Why I then on earth? Is she doing all this? This is it. This is absolutely the place of her like ability, a few euros. Desperately saying like me, like me, like me, ok can I just say first while number one that. I don't know how many ten, the millions of people have retired over ten fifty in years, their student, London Bright Europe also looks so great. You know, fan aspects, so seventy million people pay their loans back and now you know just by a quirk of birth and the fact that you know it's twenty nineteen european and not have to pay back your loans. Ok, for so
that is an equity of an almost you know, you know unprecedented degree. Secondly, you are playing with fire with proposals like this, because people forget- and this is why worn worn is foolish. My view people forget two thousand and nine in them. In early, two thousand, eight doesn't on when the meltdown happened and people defaulting on their home loans, because the balloon, the five your arm, would balloon up and they couldn't afford it that sort of what caused the meltdown in the first place right and the melting down of those financially elements that were based on this on the sub prime mortgage. Is that recalls, including in respect places like the weekly standard by Larry Lindsey, who was the who had been the head of the Council of Economic advisers syn the economist that we should either right down all mortgage debt to four percent or some like that or forgive massive
numbers of loans in order to stabilize the housing market? This is what began the tea party. This is what people forget. It was the proposal to forgive mortgage debt that lead that I Peter wrecked within Rick Sin, rigour, something SAM Tele cameras and tell him to go on CNBC and say what about an eight percent of peace, Lord defaulting. Ninety two percent of people in this country are paying their mortgages back on time every month. What about them? Why is the entire system going to be going to be we designed to help the people who are not fulfilling our contractual obligations, and why are we not helping the ninety two percent of people who are busting their tails to fulfil, to live within the rules and do what is right?
That's why we need a new tea party may be. What we need is a new tea party. That is what began the tea party populate predominant people do not like the idea that the rules get we written in the middle of the game for our people, and nor should they, nor should now I happen to think that student debt and that student loans system is it. It is a chance that an embarrassment, a horror that people are goldens the idea that they should go to college when they shouldn't or that take or that its or that it's a good bet go to college, because you can borrow money and then pay back over time or whatever then they find themselves in over their head or they find themselves beginning there professional lives in debt, it's terrible its reinforced the inflationary cost of education in our system that the student loans system exists altogether and something should be done about it
exactly not the way to do it and what's more Democrats are going to feel exam same way, because you know you pay back a hundred thousand dollars and loans, and you pay back your kids hundred thousand those in London, Alice, weren't, gonna, say: ok every for everybody. After you, it's free because that is another to the market. As you you're, not the credit risk. There is not the borrower. Witches distorts the market and reduce results in too many people taken too many loans as that that's because everybody thinks they need college, which you know I mean that's pretty true. Actually, a lot of things that the demand for skilled labour is increased, demand fur and would reduce by the way, the value of the undergraduate degree, but is also the fact that the market is in taking the terms of these loans are the payment scheduler or even the info rates on it. So you know you, that's really more government interference its disorder,
distorting the market blow and how they relate more government interference to address the government interference is I'm not a prescription? We also have been mentioned. The fact that part of this plan involves a fifteen billion dollar suspension, federals federal for historically back colleges and universities, just like a kind of you know a pool of money that will just be given to them tubes to strengthen who, by the way, I wonder why that's why I wonder why? That's they and African Americans get undergraduate degrees at greater. Numbers proportionally then wait, Americans right when african organs are proportionally in terms of percentages, the mode likely to receive an undergraduate degree in America. At this point, I really It's important for people to understand. If you don't understand this, how few people in the country actually have get college degrees. How many people graduate with college degrees from colleges starting them? It's something like twenty seven percent, so
the word: seventy percent of the population, people who take some college, the twenty seven percent of them end up with a diploma, is a gigantic scam on the american people. From a too oddly enough, we have two large the university system, but smaller system at the top, which is why the so they blew scandal happened right. There just aren't enough slots, for you know, for people who are desperate for a penny, greed, education, and so this gives you the incentive to you now try to find the side door. Clearly, there are way too many schools in the country, and they are largely being supported by this college loan system, which which acts as a he offered to them to keep them open and a and a drag and people who never finish, who never finished. So they d get to go to an employer and say I have a ba from
you know, or even though I have a community college degree, they don't finnish, and so they don't, they get all the cost and none of the benefits, but also plug my piece in the magazine about how inequality the kind of inequality that these reformers seek to address. As Ex I surveyed by free college, we ve seen it on the state level and in places like the UK, where the effect was to until her from performance the incentive for colleges reform, so the college's at the top there we have the same sense of everybody wants it. College is at the top. They continue to improve, but all the mid level schools kind of stagnate is there no longer incentive based. They no longer contribute as much as they do to their to the facilities. That is the primary driver and also our primer driver of of application, while the while the driver of costs continues to balloon in that a twenty year period. I think from MID eighty six thousand five did not admit. None faculty administrative staff in colleges exploded
by almost three hundred percent and are not doing their work. Jobs are navigating the labyrinth of regulation recitals and that is what's increasing. College costs Christine. So you have great piece in the magazine called a meritocracy blues the deal's, not with the college loan subject, but with the scandal involving you know, illicit admissions. You wanna talk a little bit about it. Yeah. I think you know it's fun,
because we have even talked about this on the part of many times about whether decide the ideal of meritocracy is something that's some worth defending, even though its this as the verses blue scandal, showed it it's never something that we can have a perfect achievement, and I actually in the coming down kind of not enthusiastically but but resign ITALY to the idea that we do still need an ideal of maritime policy, because if you check that than it really will be kind of a Darwin Ian Race for college education, college agree that will in fact benefit connection and wealth verses. Any opportunity to achieve. So. I think this,
and I'm not as its fastening for its insight into the kind of extremes of the wealthiest psyches in their their sense of status and how that change over time, and certainly for other little Hollywood tidbits that we get in it. But ultimately, I think we still critically. Conservatives need to try to find a way to defend an ideal meritocracy. I think it's. Why were we follow this case at Harvard the asian students, for example, were following all these all these instances, where the ideal is being threatened, whether by wealth, privilege, connection or racism, and when I do try to make us somewhat term, beleaguered defence of the ideal waiting for me to be a defence of the ideal in this regard, which is that if, on the one hand, if what you have is a is a darwinian system in which part of it is also that of the
that is our people with the fittest. Parents who have the fittest wallets and all that you have you have you have a system in which the only in a proper way to destroy it? If that's the soul or by the largest part of the system, it literally is multiculturalism. That is ok. So if what you have the benefit of your parents, your apparent edge in Europe and Europe, you know your parents wallet their pedigree and all that, then that's not fair, so it has to be everybody's parentage, everybody's pedigree area than you serve divide up the spoils. Those based on your background right and so that we can understand to be in the case, at least of the education is a wildly destructive, because it's enough this is these are not sort of like this is
the wizard of Oz School of the diploma, where you just pin something to someone's chest, and then they right. That's the thing that happens with her with it. The scarecrow right is, you know he has no MA. Am he has many Bray? Has no more brains are most your brains than the leaders of the mare and the leaders of most countries do, but he has a diploma any pins. The he puts a hat on him and then suddenly the the scarecrow can, you know, can start speaking Latin, but that's one and then the second is the man autocracy, which is to say system in which kids are people get into school and get go through schooling on the base, some of their own perform, and it is the it is. The was the effort I think to mix mountain in it. To sort of, I urge all these things together. The corrupted meritocracy right yet
you'd. Think part of the difficulty here is that it is in the fact that the Mare talk, RSI, has kind of come down to schooling and academics, because that now said the it gives you a place to look for four credential. So becomes you a question of being credential than that's? That's an indication of a place in the meritocracy before be the rush to to get him undergraduate degree. There is doing things like gum and are now apprenticeships, and there are ways to sort of strike out and demonstrate merit that had to do with skills. Other then test taking are studying or or whatever is only one other right as we that we know of which is the military in the United States right. That is the only other path for a young person, with no particular skills to make clear that
he has matured and as somebody who can be trusted to take a role in your company, your corporation rights right. So now it's become very narrowed. You know you have to demonstrate a very specific but of skills to two to place in the met in the meritocracy that that's that's. If it's all fair, that's you not in the best possible, such as I said, because this this corruption of the meritocracy there, with the way that I mentioned before, witches that somehow you have an institution and some of its meritocratic right, But then some of it is legacy driven and they are not obliged because they are private institutions to tell you how much or which are how or what it, what standard they use for, what it's just that they don't want to the change too much they wanted to be. So much. So if it goes when it when it was Jews who are threatening the status quo, they put quotas on for Jews when its agents through this task with it now includes Jews, they put a quota on four Asians. They don't have to tell you
they're doing it and they they can muddy the waters through all sorts of weird subjective standards right so there why? In the end, if you go now to the famous New York cities, the scandal over the New York City single test, that people take an eighth grade to go to the selective high schools in which nothing matters but the test score and then well. That's not fair either, because a lot of kids are being opened. Their staff been staying for the test for for two or three years, but the problem, then, is there is no way to make everything fair. The questions is the most fair in a week. Well, then, which unfairness is kind of what the everyday participation there is. No absolute fairness, what's more, you could make the claim those cases that the parents want to spend two years drilling their kids to dwell on the test are exactly are the kind of parents who will have kids who do well in school and do well in college and who will be proud?
The members of the serve the the american elite, precise, because what it it matter, their families, how well they did in school and where they went to school and how they didn't school, not not for the reward I mean not for the not for the pet agree, but because they, so the people who see education as the clear path ahead, which is having a different matter. Well, I was that there was distinctively not the case for these. Firstly blues parents right I mean they didn't see that need the path of education that it was more like icing on the kind of wealth take that they worry all sitting on its status marker just like buying a certain brand of refrigerator is for people, Are you doing there kitchen where it will? Let me let me put it this way. So someone I know who was an observer missions officer for for many years. I talk to this weekend,
and so I said to you know this: there is this: what there's one guy in the case Kaplan the the managing was the managing partner at Wilkie Foreign Gallagher. You know white, shoe law firm, fifty two years old, wildly successful and he saw he I think he was was at the proctor. He was the one s. Eighty guy took his daughters test for something like a way he resigned. He pled he resigned. He plaid here ass his job at the firm you know he said I need to men, my relationship with my family, my daughter in particular, whom I feel so terrible that so you go and look at his pedigree. Here's what s interesting about him. So he went to Fordham LAW school. He didn't go to Harvard LAW School, even go to Yale LAW school. He didn't go to Stanford LAW school. You can go to the University of Chicago LAW school. He went to Florida, which is a good law school. But is not a school that you have to buy your way into and his school that you know, and he made it to the top of the greasy pole from Fordham. Now what what it was
should this have said to him and said to him my kid doesn't need, let's see what happens MIKE can make it on merit and though you can make it I'm GOTS or whatever the hell. It is that he made on apparently not a very nice person than kind of a killer, but so what? But he did so. I said to turn to my friend and emissions. What what what's the story- and she said I think it is like that you get points like you know I can just by it. That's what I have money for is to buy things I can just by this, and then I had this weird thought about this thing. That happened when I was a kid remember: if you were collector baseball cards, you collect baseball cards by buying gum, tops these. The package, a baseball cards and all through the year you'd by when you got enough money together, you would buy a pack of baseball cards and laboriously try to get all the baseball cards of that sees, and it was thrilling you traded with your friend
You did this and you did that was kind of it. It was thrilling and it was also enraging cousin. You get three, he knows. Manny Motors and you'd only needed one and tat, and then some point when I was a teenager, you could buy all the cards at once tops issued a package. You could buy all the cards at once and that ruined it, you can buy all the cards are. One of the whole fund was not being able to have all the cards at once. Old challenge of collecting baseball cards was collecting them, not owning them all at once, and that somehow this this some active, avoiding the pain or are just being To do it, I just be able to eat ease of it ruined dead. I'm not saying that you know captains D there's career is like collecting baseball, but there is some sense that it's the jury,
not a destination right, that education is a journey not getting into a college, is a journey not a destination like it. All of these things are about maturing and growing in getting to a point at which you then can live your life, which also doesn't n. You don't just get something, and then stop has that for a bizarre analogy, it's a useful and that because it's the opposite of what I think, a lot of people's focuses, which is a much more instrumental view of education, and you have to blame in part higher education itself for promoting that. You know it's all about what skill in what will our graduates get jobs to do that that the emphasis it why you see the destruction of a core humanity's curriculum? It's it's! It's explain, since the instrumental approach to education and our current meritocracy can be blamed on I mean that's it it's an fort. I think yours is the humane and virtue
approach to education, but I think the other is the system were living in Armenia. You know in in talking about it. Problem is, and this is this is this- is always the problem with a meritocracy, not not that it's still not be ideal to shoot for is now we would certain. What do the varsity blues cases are? Speak too? Is that their actually Sir purchasing Pyrenees or titles right? And it's the it's the very opposite of meritocracy? There's zero injured, it's ninety, it. It doesn't say anything other than it's like being a counter can't involved people for noticing that America's top institutions are populated about with people from the ivy. Where can I read it or not, and most interesting people ever met are out of date, acts from what level schools, but there are also not that they had him that in the spring court there are also not I mean
Now, I'm reading, I guess a generation removed, I'm reading the memoir of Michael O, that's the guy who created the modern agency system with so he went to U S c, but he went. He will see what it was really bad. You know gay certain jobs didn't graduate from college. You know a great many people are real. Ordered by not having gone to the top at eighteen. I mean that's just a fact: but a fact, but you know you live in a system of which you cannot get to the top, because is it socially stratified literally buying a peerage is totally sensible thing to do right in the eighteenth and nineteenth century in England, because you couldn't you you, you were always trapped at a lower social strata but but jumped the wave that be that the entertainment industry work right for them used to work with
for a long time, a left over of a system where you could have a kind of apprenticeship or you could start out in the mail room without any credential other than other than you are yet, although everybody was somebody's nephew in the mail room in the William Morris Mailroom, everybody was somebody's nephew None of that everybody. Nobody, I now became says in the book. It's like you know nobody was not. Everybody was a math, but there were allotted nephews, but they did have shovel, but nor is poor. The point like and you know when you said you want to send your kid to a college and you try to sweeten it when she doesn't want to go by saying you'll get to go to a lot of tailgate party. That's the up set of I'll help. You get job in the William Morris Mailroom, but then you're gonna, then you're gonna like work a hundred hours for twenty thousand dollars a year against, and to have to demonstrate that you're any good at your job right. I'm just saying that even the meritocratic reward system
is it she too, because it's not clear for the most exceptional people, maybe maybe it's great for mediocre, people who then can end up being really successful. By dint of the fact that they have good family, then they went to Harvard, but you know the classic thing that was instead about a bond p m. This very least israeli guy who came to arrogantly did the power rangers. There he's a huge democratic donor, and all of that is, if you shot Haim Subject into a rocket ship and New sent him to Mars and he got out on Mars and they're all these little green Martians walking around in six once he would be selling them genes, because that's why he'd, this heads who he was, and he was not ever going to be stilled from doing that and and so that that's the other part of the joke here. The famous joke involving
Laurie, laugh ones, daughter, Olivia generally, is that she had already made it. She had already circumvented the hierarchy, patients system. She was an influenza and instagram making. You know where hundreds of thousands of dollars at the age of sixteen or seventeen, so this debt buying her the peerage was unnecessary baby, it's maybe to her parents. It seemed like a fun thing to do, but it was unnecessary. Will accept, except to the phase, for the fact that you know title families, Mary other title families in you. You know you, sir, if you use, keep the whole system intact and reinforced in Vienna. Will that's that other AMOS thing about this idea, which I don't know that there is any actual demographic proof?
over sociological. But this is a fantastic theory that there was up. There was a process in the in the in the first half of the twentieth century. That worked as follows: Oh there's a guy in an office and he gets a very young, attractive secretary and he marries broteri secretaries of working class girl. She is now Mary to an upper middle class manager and by dint of the fact that she marries the upper middle class manager, he provides her relatives who are irish immigrants, jewish whatever, with an example of a person who made it and he gives them advice, he tells them how what's test to take. He tells them what businesses to apply to get a job and he provides a path that no one in the family had before and that you have these mergers of classes. My marriage
to man, Mary somebody who is a step or two down and class from him, and that process elevates the next generation of her family. Now, there's all their sociological literature about this. It so sound. So much like a novel that I made did not really true, I don't know, but but in the myth, those of the meritocracy it. It has interesting aspect to it because, of course, part of the idea here is somehow people you just don't even know how things work so me you should just make it clear to them how things work. So they're minimally competent to get themselves started. Then you started and then they can go on their own and then they have to stand and fail on their own and that's why the violations of the meritocratic ideal or so horrifying to everybody which Christy and why there still important, because at some point F,
possibly that doesn't say people stand and fall in their own is terrible. Social, socially. That's also why you know multiculturalism so dashing because it It reinforces the idea that the only thing that matters is you know are the circumstances of your birth and therefore gives people a reason to think that they mean try. Try was very preachy, then ended kind of preachy. I'm sorry mean to get preaching Ok, so what will love will brings the clothes? I'm just going to say one thing, which is that I think the second episode of game with runs very disappointing. Nothing really where the there were no plot development, nothing before last mile, ok, so you're, probably supposed to I'll, be emotionally invested in all these people's interactions in their like they're coming. Heather now combine moment, because all of them are gonna die right debts.
Think either setting up. So while everybody invests, I don't know out of what six episodes Imelda to medicines at nothing's happened. Yet Nothing's happened. I dwell. We wholesale slaughter, John Snow sleeping with his aunt and shipowners, and we issued at the end of last season will, but she didn't know so some of the first episode of the Seas and he found out that he leaving with his hand on the second episode she found out that he was that she was sleeping with her nephew. That's the plot. Development. All this is emotional manipulation. I don't mind a good emotional mandibular. I like the first episode and then the set an episode, nothing it's like they're coming they're coming die. Let's have sex. Let's have a drink. Tell me why you're crippled you know, oh my god you're my nephew, and then it goes to black
and no dragons and male dragons rights item out anyway. I'm sorry, too, you know I'm sorry to have to vent here because I I adore the show that includes spoilers. I guess I wish I had spoilers. That was the whole thing. This episode had no spoilers somebody who had watched it. You must send me an email and Susan Israel, semi missing. I couldn't see it's. What happened? I'm like nothing. Nothing happened, then. So, with that moment of turning into the sub beacon for three seconds, we bring to a close for Christine Noah, enabling John passwords keep the candle learning.
Transcript generated on 2019-12-07.