Welcome to the Commentary Magazine Daily podcast today is Tuesday. May twenty six twenty twenty I'm John public the editor of Commentary magazine the seventy eight year old, monthly of intellectual analysis, political probity and cultural criticism. From a conservative perspective, we invite you to join us. Commentary magazine dot com, where we give you a few free, reeds and ask you to subscribe, are June issue. Is up and available for your perusal, as I was telling you last week with some really extraordinary art,

calls among them Terry teach, shouts account of thee of here remarkable marriage to Hilary and her passing during the pandemic. Article called my Gallant Gal. So please take a look at that. You can take a look at no arrangements, personal account, of the madness of living under quarantine with two small children called the quarantining and Christine Rosen on the we'll standard pertaining to accusations of sexual assault in the media. When the act when the accused is a Liberal Democrats running for President any other things. So please take a look there and

as I mentioned, Christine Rosen senior Writer- is here with us today, high Christine John, and of course Harassment are see the other high on our agenda, and the man who shepherded those pieces into printed on line senior editor a Green Waldheim, Abe. How John so, I was struck by the stunt publishing moment of the week. The New York Times is a list of the hundred thousand people who have died or the approaching hundred thousand people who have died of the corona virus, and what what struck me was that, of course, they decides publishes piece on Sunday two days ago and we had ourselves done a podcast on Monday,

of last week, in which we highlighted the fact that during this week during that weak, we would hit this horrible milestone of a hundred thousand dead. Only we have hit the milestone and why, the things we haven't had it yet today and one of the things that that indicates, I was so sure a week ago, Monday eight days ago that we would headed in the in the upcoming next couple of days. Is that the death toll is slowing not growing, because if it had fallen the same pace that it had been in the previous. We would have headed on Wednesday or Thursday, which is what the times expected also, since they put their project into notion and this raises an interesting question which is: is that, though, is the stress her on the on the death toll or Is that right, stress or is the stress her on?

the fact that we are seeing all kind encouraging signs that the term the slowing that that the virus is not. Exploding elsewhere in the United States that measures that we have been taken May in fact have worked remarkably well at slowing the growth of the virus, in the sense that. Even though not everybody's wearing mass of matter. Who is doing this matter, based doing that where the where the pen MIKE was at its worst. People did adapt change and alter their. Cave you're in a way that may have? material effect on making sure that this did not become the Asian flew of twenty eighteen. Why first you could have foreseen this in the data. It was foreseeable that this was the death rates word declining

and that it would take another week and a half or so before. You got two hundred thousand, not remember, saying that at the time and a lot of other people are saying it. So the fact that nobody could just their priors is disconcerting on a different level when it comes to the pandemic. In other death rates are lagging indicators in a new its premature to say that that's really means much of anything because we could see them uptake again sooner or later. But if we did see the attack, then we would see a lot of leading indicators that would much more disconcerting life hospitalization rates and that new infection rates that were not tied to increase of the testing regimen so and you being the lagging list of lagging indicators here is. Robert Wade, the weakest metric that you could use to say where were you

one success or another it when it measures accurately as outcomes in american hospitals are better than they are in much of the industrialized world, certainly in the developing world, which is something people have been discounting from the beginning of this pandemic, that comes in. American hospitals are routinely outpace their competitors in there the world's. Why we have so much medical tourism here and one of the things that the Medicare for all brigade look agitates in favour of nationalizing all the american healthcare system routinely, is count to their own detriment. It sets a parity failure on our part to fail to understand how optimize. The american healthcare system is when it comes to treating people ok. So now I that's Trusting perception that that that the death toll is lagging because I suppose it could increase. Again, if there are if their outbreaks, but it also does track the fact that their haven't been the

is blooming new blooming of New York elsewhere and in that sense it's not a lagging indicator because it would have to be. Will only be lagging indicator, if you had like him, a break somewhere, and then the death toll from that outbreak was significantly better than the death toll from. Outbreak in New York, because treatments have gotten better or you know, hydrochloric one was working better or Where did we learn more about how to make sure that this doesn't get terribly fatal? That's it doesn't seem to be the case exactly and I'm just saying that there is a part of this entire process that seems to want and I feel this myself- which we can go into- have I've mentioned this a little but here and there but seems to want. To see this as the worst possible set of facts and circumstances every single day

from now. Until there is a vaccine seen ape, would you have me There is no question about that. Its I saw someone had posted something on Twitter, Facebook last night. About a recent death death toll It was. It was Rony us that I don't know they had gotten it from a site that it made a type or something like that, and it put the put the most recent death toll at like gum, a thousand in three debts of in a twenty four hour period and dust, He said well looks like we're back to square one to me. There was almost dissatisfaction in it let with which is kind of what you're tired with reserve waiting for Things to fail were waiting to move backwards because at least, if it If we had a sort of responded to this day as a total failure. It would be Something decisive, we could say about an almost it's almost like it with weak week. We can,

was diagnosed things as opposed to the sort of a quite knowing where we stand reality of it. But I don't get me wrong that and also the relevance and we ve been from a certain contingent, I think you're referring to witches it doesnt phone neatly along political line, but it's much more on the left and it is on the right the suggestion that place- is that were beginning to open up to soon were inviting catastrophe in mass death. I didn't materialise, they didn't go back and examine their assessments and the assumptions that led to that assessment, they moved on to the next catastrophe that was supposed to materialise. That also didn't material, as that was constant, election half a dozen other things winter, when you're perceptual, you're you're it there's an identity here that is tied up in your home political structure, your belief system is tied up in the notion that every he's getting this wrong you don't get it wrong. You would after reassess your entire identity.

Your personality is building. If you're personalities build the people for not wearing masks, you can't back and then say: ok! Well, you know. Maybe my entire activity here was was flawed and operating under false assumptions. Well- and we saw this with the other new times- peace over the weekend- the long weekend, which was about red versus Blue America, where the cases are writing very, very distinctly tried to say the reason Trump and people who support trump, don't care about this. Is that it's on affecting them, and this is horrible, it was. It was a pretty simplistic way. Simplistic approach at the same time were also in this period of time, with this pandemic, where we are emerging from these in a huge operates with high casualty rates and now

going into this question of whether to open up and saw the other story that we were all following over the weekend. Were you know these on social media? The images of pull parties there is. There is one in that the lake, the ozarks that was making around there's another one in Houston. These are places where people were not only not practising social distancing, which they were doing. A lot of the nation speeches I should add, their people were being pretty care, careful and cautious, but at some of these parties people were not, they were largely young people, they were very. Almost none of them are wearing masks and they were you don't write in each other space. They were they look like. It looks like a petri dish and in some cases and said there was a lot of judgment that actually, though I mean I feel like there should be non partisan judgment if we're not at a stage in a place where that safe to do then, let's be

Judging about that, but let's be consistent and not try to make it your red versus Blue America judgements as no was saying it's not really about politicizing this, which were far pass. That point is gonna, be especially dangerous in this period of transition back to whatever the new normal is going to be a good thing about the good thing about the coverage of that Lickety Ozarks Party is that they got it right from the perspectives things. So I ve been talking about how to have these like fish. Islands is where you get down to the level of a human being, and you look out and like three miles, and it looks like you in the sea of people when everybody is on not really on top of each other without one got a bird's eye view of this. Is it really people making out in poor regions exactly with no mass and dislike, and I mean you're, surrounded by chlorinated water? So maybe that's something of the of the help. But I can't even imagine you got it gave me no I'm not one of them more risk. Averse people here in this in this pandemic situation, without one made my skin problem.

I don't know I mean. I know that part of the thing about the the sir, I make is that there are regional differences in the contain and and its just that it serves sitting around hovering over every invisibly over every gathering. People in America, and therefore everybody in America needs to behave exactly the same way that we were behaving in Manhattan that It seems like the demand. For that is more a kind of demand for national social solidarity that that there is something untoward about. You know having a big pool party when people in the northeast can't have a big pool party and- that's understandable. That's where the Red versus Blue America thing comes in that somehow ready Erika is showing insufficient care for,

The pain and suffering of Blue America and therefore read America is in a bad and and I a moral or foolish, or something like that. But you know it's like one of those things where when I was in high school. I like her high school, you know when you wish, you were the surface of who didn't do drugs, and then there were all these people in high school who did drugs, and you were like well they're, going to. Their lives or just gonna be terrible. You know they they're gonna pay If it's a movie or tv show they're going to pay they're going to end up. You know it rehab or they're, going to be on the street homeless, or something like that. And then you got your ten tie. School union and the drugs are all working on Wall Street. Fine and it's like that's nice, There was. This wasn't be like that. There was, it was to be like Twilight Zone morality, you know, if you just misbehaved or slip the moral frame in which he whispered,

of God was busted deliver his judgment upon you and there's a little bit of that. You know in in in the world in which its like, they'll see you know these people, the lake of the ozarks. Wait till it hits them. Will it probably isn't going to hit them? So it's not that you want them to die. It's that this is some kind of cosmic injustice that you are

spirits and link that other people are getting to have fun. While you are still in a place in which you can't even go into a store its, we don't. We are very uncomfortable in this country it for good in a good way with inequality right. We actually, for all of these heard of politically correct talk about how terribly unequal our society is, an house structurally racist, sexist, etc centre. It is, we are actually deeply disturbed by obvious inequalities and that's a good thing. It's what forces social change it went at. People rallied tend to make things more open and operate, give people opportunities, but in this case, when it's something you can't control like a pandemic, the inequality is extremely frustrating to witness, and I think I think John, that's absolutely spot

there. There is a sense of your post, I'm leavin, you read me. This would sometimes laugh at. You know that the middle of nowhere place that was demanding federal funds to create a memorial to nine eleven, but, on the other hand, that's kind of wonderful right. There was a sense of we are all Americans who suffered the consequences of this attack. We're not reacting that way this time, because a lot of our individual choices come into play here and that's where the inequality versus the personal for. Stuff is really clashing. Goes both ways. The right on the red. America feels the exact same way about Blue America that feeling this level of resentment that their imposing these conditions on us that bear no resemblance to our own circumstances. And are judging us based on behaviors that they can engage in and are imposing these standards on us that do not and should not apply, and therefore we will rebellion against them. The envy but know it. The identity question that you referred to before about applies. Reverse there. In other words, for they are the people whose identity

to police the non mass wares and then they as also is very robust sense of identity, wrapped up around sort of finding the tyranny that David the tyranny. How right right now well, and you know and that's why it's in reverse. Also because what this triggers is the you're telling me I have to wear a mask, You are the same person who's going to my neighbour and saying you have two baker, a cake for a gay wedding, or my county clerk Hasta. It out believe you demand that my county clerk issue ISIS were gay marriages, or something like that that that's my already view, even where people are expressing at units of the identity, politics of the right on blues dates. Imposing mare, morality on on red said: that's where the connection comes into masking

also because the way people talk about masking is the way people talk about second hand, smoke and a lot of other things. That is that day. They invest behaviors with a moral tinge that a practical like there's a moral necessity to wear a mask. It's a practical matter, it's Whether or not you are do you're gonna act in ways that are still somewhat inconvenient to you. Even then in a whirl setting or something like that, simply as precautionary matter to do it, you can't kill the virus off so that it doesn't kill you or your grandmother or something like that. You know and and therefore its it. It's it's a request For you, the inconvenience yourself, but people than invested with this, put this moral

what you call it like overlay on top of it and then that triggers all of the culture war stuff that is frankly unhelpful because that lesson: social Solidarity that makes it harder for people to believe that they need to do this in order to be a good citizen and to be part of a common effort to radically the virus now want to move in a slightly separate direction. In this conversation,. Because As I keep saying, I keep moving between camps every five minutes on masking not mess Is this the worst thing ever? I have we overreacted. All of that cause. I read a piece by Scott ATLAS: a commentary contributor, doktor, doktor medicine at the who and who is a scholar, the Hoover Institution and Scott.

Peace in the hell about the dangers to the economy and end to mental health and all that by the lock downs witches in one of his. Signature issues and has been for a couple weeks. But then he went into this description of why the viruses and so bad in historical terms. So he mentions the avian flu one thousand nine hundred eighteen killing millions. The fluids, seventeen eighteen nineteen, then he mentions, flew fifty six to fifty eight and then he mentions the Hong Kong flew from there. As for years of the nineteen sixty something like that, all of which have much larger details, then then, what we see now. But looked at in a slightly different way. This was another story which is that all of those flues with hundreds of

thousands to millions dad went on four way longer than we ve been at this flu, and I words like in this, the first death. From kroner from what we can tell her, that we registered was in March, and so that's March, two may that's three months and a hundred thousand people have died and these other flues, like there were six hundred thousand people who died from the Hong Kong, flew over four years. And so, when a reading that a peace was attempted to convince me that we ve overreacted, put me in exactly the opposite frame of mind that we Overreacted, because a flu they can kill hundred thousand people in three months, where

almost from the beginning of the flu, except for the first four weeks people were taking intercession Mary measures to try to halt it spread suggested a had. We not done that the death toll be much worse and B. We still don't know how far this is. Gonna go. As I said, the signs. This week are encouraging, in terms of the slowing of the death toll, but there's the second wave there's this theirs. Who the hell knows, and so I continue to be live in this mindset or frame of mind where Any argument than anybody makes puts me on the other side of the death toll, the death rate. All all deaths in New York during this period have been five times greater than normal right. That's that's all all debts, so you you have to account for

massive spikes somewhere in your argument? If yours, if someone is saying that either it is just like the flu or an end, and that covert debts are really this bookkeeping function whereby medical professionals lump other debts in is covered in it's it's a hoax. Therefore, none of that can account for the fact that debts in the New York area went up to a five times as normal spike at the height of this thing, and thus of the evidence suggests that there still under counting covert death because plenty of people were not long discovered debts. When they died at home and we're not send tested post mortem, so yeah yeah it also. It also seems I mean I am very much concerned about the the longterm, mental health deaths of despair, consequences of the economic slowdown and all that basically based on

We saw after the economic meltdown in two thousand and two thousand eight and I think that is a real concern going forward, but it sleep beggars. Belief. To think that some of these- I'm sure there are hundreds- and maybe, You know a thousand cases in the country. People who might well have died, where it had terrible things happen to them, because they did not seek medical attention because they were they'd misunderstood or that Miss Red or they they. They re acted in the wrong way to the idea that they should stay away from emergency rooms or because their doctors had shut down. But this ocean that that somehow equals the toll from covered and that we are therefore you know we're over counting the deaths from covered, because maybe other people died from other.

Things and that's not fair in there just shoving things in because there because medicate or Medicare, had some formula to pay hospitals more for listing death is covered, thus occur. Sing people of committing rapid in acute accusing those routinely of committing Medicare fraud or medicate fraud in order to collect extra money, which is a pretty serious accusation when you think about them and understand the danger of of something like that if we know creating an incentive to report, but you know like who gets that money like it's not like it's an individual practitioner, who's, gonna, defrauding the federal government, you're actually saying there was a systematic effort to defraud the the healthcare system by hospitals and large scale providers to you now collect a couple extra thousand dollars on you know honour on american bill and that that that seems like an extreme no

at a conspiratorial notion that should be. That should be discarded so and in that sense, is much more likely that were under counting decimal covered than the we are over counting them, despite the fact that this is enough it has become a favorite talking point of the. I don't know when you caught me people say corona, truth errors or something like that. I that's not quite the right term. I know it, but the sceptics right, the locked down sceptics or the something like that, but we you start going into that level of pay Well, I really just you know stealing from the system, and that's why we think in there that people have an incentive. Have a personal financial incentive. Nobody who worked at a hostile, the hospitals, not a human being, is not like a doctor. Committing men are fraught like it's a joy. Organization with a lot of people were in word, who don't necessarily need to show profit. You know what I mean like nearly the head of the system does, but like that

administrator who was filling out. The form to send to the government does not there. It there's a lot out of this. To be honest among among the the M more staunch anti lockdown folks and I am anti lockdown, so I'm I'm on the look out for the conspiratorial elements. You know in my midst and another aspect of this is also the story that will this oh really done to get to Trump. We wouldn't locked down to this degree under another president, but this was a way of killing the economy getting too Trump, which of course, makes no sense, because what on earth basis, then did all these other countries shut down here economy? Was that with that to get to tromp as well and also did Trump gets a trump right. I mean Trump Trump announced essentially

small, a version of national lockdown in March, based on the advice given him by is by his epidemiological exports while that so he did it to himself and we eat. Although we also said like the lockdown was happening, naturally was naturally occurring from and particularly in New York, where every work commercial activity was down. Eighty percent, before they lock down so effectively. There was a locked down before the lock down right now, Probably we are all anti locked down by this point I mean effectively That is to say this is emotionally and purse we and economically unsustainable, though it can He sustained now boiled threw up, kind of entropy, including the

aggregation of the system that is represented by the concept of entropy, but that nominally you could continue it forever warp as long as is necessary. I do wonder- and I wonder what you guys think of this there is. We are talking about this, although this will happen in the colleges or go back in August and changing the schedules, but then they'll be the second wave and then we'll just have to do this all over again. Anybody think We can do this all over. I'm anybody think that it would be. You know that that there were be a way to do it all over again. I mean I think the only way to do it all over again would be that if the recovery, the snapped back after Say July, First, when, let's presume all the lock downs or ended nationally, say July, for some snapped back was so dramatic,

that the notion was. You know what we can afford to do it again, because we already seen that the snapped back is just so powerful that will have a thirty percent growth in a month, and that'll. Somehow you know he'll, the wounds I think, aside for that. I dont know how any politician will be able to go particularly if we're in the middle of an election it lit with risk, would election in November, the early November. For you know that didn't see the house- and you know a third of the Senate. Let this is. Kind of occurring organically, and this is what we have anticipated. What I had anticipated and its begun. My governor the other week announced that filmer fake bakeshops are are now open, Hosanna. You know you can go by a bicycle. If you want to you, can't I'm bicycle by the way. You know this.

Are no bicycles left in the United States. There is that there is literally. There is a bicycle shortage in the United States. Everybody went out and bought a bicycle, and that's the cannot order that. I'm sorry I apologize, Storage, I have there was a this is what happens when you don't do pre, so we d prep resigning essentially due to stole my thunder, but there was a lying around the bike shop for about a week and a half prior to the announcement of this reopening suggesting Commerce had been restored in the absence of an executive order that nobody was willing to enforce in the first place. So it homer There was essentially survey the conditions on the ground and announced that he had created them and took credit for them. That's the pathway by which democratic governors who are guided by the science and the science will engage in the reopening of economic activity, not because it smart policy, not because

It's it's safe policy, but because it is the conditions that prevail at one, and they will simply assume credit for that. I want there also be in some places, and I think this is gonna- be one of these places. They'll be this weird limbo period where they try to do some sort of seemingly thoughtful policy requirements for small businesses are for schools in particular. You know what we are talking here about doing in a bee schedule where, like some kids come in Monday, when they Friday others choose a Thursday and then they switch Ed and is very complicated way of limiting the number of kids in a classroom for not wear, masks, etc, etc. I could see a version of some. You know seemingly public health responsible approach to reopening that. Then just people can't manage or fails utterly and then there's a new kind of argument going back and forth about what should be done to shut down again Russia and even if there's a small spike in a city like DC that will launch a whole other lockdown. Given how browser-

and having her in this crisis is also presupposes that we're going to have the exact same strain of covert that we're dealing with a march in November group were mostly left with what is likely and were saying epidemiological evidence along these lines that we are seeing attenuated strains, because the only by rival deadly strains. Actually lose their hosts after a certain period, has just have the trajectory of epidemics like this, Sars kind of went away all by itself. So you know, there's it's a hopeful take, but it in one. That's not your bereft of all support of evidence. Look. The question is: why is it always goes to incentives in this sense, and I don't mean incentives like to cheat I mean: are you gonna be blamed for tens of thousands of deaths or not if the culture where's indications that you are not going to be blamed for those DAS.

The political incentives to create the conditions under which you, a pot elected politician, want to govern in a recession or depression, and deal with all of the consequences of that like having to cut massive, make massive cuts in your state budget. Raising taxes whatever it is it you have to do to deal with the stream shortfalls. In money that you're gonna get as at the federal level. But the state level at the local level. The incentive to shut up country down because of disease, has to greater than Europe We're standing that you are putting yourself in a position in which your problem, How can we get reelected? Your part he's: gonna get blamed, they're gonna be terrible, lasting consequences, and even if you are, it is not gonna be fun to be a governor in twenty twenty one,

it is not going to be fun to be a mayor in twenty twenty one. It may really not be fun to be president or a member of Congress and twenty twenty one. These are not good times to be a politician trying to dole out favours and do things. Big, a claim that you are helping the country, it's bad and so the condition the disease conditions are gonna have to be fairly extreme. Maybe we worse than they are now to call. Somebody to want to inflict that kind of pain on themselves. I don't mean the country I mean the politicians. They have to really think like Andrew Coma, that this is something that they are going to get credit or because they are going to get Blaine. How I mean that, just just by just by dint of the fact that everything is going to be terrible, there could, you know, left disconcerted. It's gonna to be demanding things that they're not going to be able to get because there's gonna be no money for it,

conservatives are gonna be upset because they're they're gonna be tax increases like everybody's. Everyone will be in a conspiracy, the other to make sure There is not a second lockdown. I think I am I mean I have to believe that any second wave of this has to be less threatening than the first just based on the facts. That none of it will come as a mystery to us their will. Well, we know officials time not to wear masks. Everyone will have their masks. Everyone will big book keep. De I mean everyone in a given area. You know a bubble will keep their distance from its. There is a preparedness now that I think has to mitigate against taking off

Jen in anywhere near the same numbers as the first time answer, and therefore I think it would be crazy tomb to impose another lockdown, I do what, whether or not we have only at this time but location. Let me let me let me just take it. Take a pause here and talk to you guys about today's sponsor Quip, my tooth brush my tooth brush for years the toothbrush I'm going to recommend to you now. Look I mean you know, I think, for a lot of people their morning and evening. Routines may have may have changed changes in bedtimes personal behaviour, kids, people being back at home- all of that, maybe the bathroom being more crowded than it was before, and that may have, in effect on your oral care, including by the way getting a lot more food delivered, or you know, a bad comfort, baking and cooking, and all of that that means that you know maybe red no more sugar beet, its take better care of your teeth. All of that. So what is

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toward happened to this woman who died at her desk at the age of twenty eight of of what Her family and everybody else seems to think was a was a was of a heart disorder and trump has time and again brought up the possibility that you know something happened and Joe got off Scot free. There needs to be a reopen, invest. Negation, the the widower, the woman's husband I wrote a letter to Jack Dorsey of Twitter of a very heart rending letter asking him to remove trumps tweets on this matter. It's very clear to me that this is, you know, trumped just pushing. Another one of his buttons Warren media. You know Do something it outrageous lip it up. Liberals friends of Joe Scarborough

I was, and people like that this is pretty bad bright. I mean it. Is it? Is it it's extremely bad, Is it? Is it that no one? I both are our aims? we seek tributaries and Joseph MSNBC and with where we're on his show so where we may not be the best people to really talk about this. Just a friend of mine, but simply is not come, and I intend to intend to put an end to paper on this thing, because this is not the is not like you he's, doing this out of a sense of justice he's criticising job Scarborough, because Joe Scarborough criticizes him in the hidden doesn't think that there is any boundaries in his efforts to denigrate the people who criticized him. He does this all the time. This is his em all, and it is grotesque, but it's not just this. I mean this is what's putting him in political peril.

These job we're all rating is what it is today, which is what it was back before the pandemic when the economy was fantastic, we didn't these conditions that prevail. He had one of the least sustained bounces of job approval, the western world, clearly this about every governor and the country, because, his personality of his compartment it was never about. The economy was always something referendum on him and his personal conduct, and that's what's going on. And if it does undue him and we go back unless NGO and twenty twenty one twenty twenty two is trying to revive his political career, which we all think this probably gonna be the case. If you were to lose in November Then everybody will miss the the signal here for the pandemic that will blame it on this these conditions and say that the president was wrong, but this was always probably going to be the trajectory of his political career, because he was

always he always was elected in spite of his behaviour. He was always supported in spite of his behavior. It was never because of it and if he's undone his company

and his personal conduct and this kind of noxious behaviour. These distractions will contribute mightily to his undoing and it's actually so that their two things here that are uniquely awful about this situation. One is that actually young people I went to high school with a wonderful boy who did in his twenties, have a similar problem. Yet an undiagnosed heart condition and he died. He just died in his very just suddenly this happens. It's a tragedy, it's just it's horrible that he's trying to make a conspiracy out of prison and endorsing the conspiracies of others to the twitter point, though, I find interesting right with there's this there's, then this ongoing debate since Trump won the election about whether or not he should be given a platform on on twitter and and what Jack, Dorsey and Twitter should be doing about this in an Dorsey. Actually didn't wasn't good about making a decision. Personally, I think the more he exposes his it on Twitter, the more information voters have about the kind of person

he is and whether they want him in a leadership position at all on the state of his mental hell. I think it is so I'm I'm I'm for just look. Let him treaters heart's content shows who he is. So I think what Europe has done here is vile. I think there's absolutely no question about it. I do wonder, who the people are, who have found in his a north, that's behaviour. Up to this point, into their assessment of the presidency and have accepted it up till now, who would say well, this is this is a step too far. I'm not even I'm not even sure that those people exist. I mean, I think I think Do you know what you're dealing with here and you and you you take the awful with the good with with what you perceive to be good and, and you go

or you rejected him a long time ago, based on his conduct. I don't I don't even know. I don't know that anything grasses a threshold. At this point nah. I completely agree. I think that the numbers and the data is pretty clear- that there's a lot more people in the reject him category than there are in this important categories. What will this little, we know brought? based on, had two heads and job approval ratings, which are all very static. Point in one very clear direction, while I'm here? We know. We know that there is this one interesting staff that some people are are relying on were or think as interesting. That's more maybe em dick? It is, then, the question of who were the trunk Obama Trump voters that may be Biden could get back, and that is this thing that says that when you asked people who disliked both trump and that people who disliked both Trump and Hilary broke for Trump and twenty sixteen at the end, though, if

if, if it was a choice between the people that you disliked- and you really did have to finally make that binary choice- Trump got the mature if those- and that was one of the things I pushed him over- the top That is where I think, if that, if that is true, if that with calculating things, is true- and that's not it Well, that's too small really to make a merit measurable difference in the electoral college. But let's say it is that's where he's really endangering himself is whether on he's giving people leave to vote for Biden because they're, just gonna diesel, baked by they dislike him, whereas a Hilary as in the end, people disapproved of trumpet they didn't like Trump and they also disapproved of Hilary, did like Hillary remember at this point, which is appointed Harriet and making at this point in time,

Sixteen, despite the fact that we are all like. Oh my god, this such a disaster, the Republican Party and you know- I went to the republican convention. Having these conversations about, what it would mean with senior very senior Republicans elected officials. You know at at at off the record meetings like well enough: Trump loses by three will lose this money huh, if he loses by ten- will lose. This will win this note. He thought he was gonna win and I'm talking out, in the senior precincts? And yet at this moment in twenty sixteen they were tied were tied in Poland. I'll think about how he was always losing of then he won When, though, everyone thought he was gonna lose. He and Hilary were basically tied or one point or two point separated them, and he and

six to seven to eight points ahead of them? So this is not the same as two thousand and sixteen and that need to get people to vote for him. Affirmatively is still going to be very important and I don't know how you get a vote.

By attacking Joe Scarborough, either way. Ok, but that I can, I can make out argument eminent and agree with the area, but I think there are others a sense in which this this recent Scarborough thing was a kind of fan service that the trunk was doing for the for the rather large percentage of the conservative world, of which we are currently would include ourselves in. I think with somebody scandals he's he's servicing is base about about media bias right so there's a way in which people will overlook the details of the story and how horrific it must be. For the survivors of this, this woman, who dry, died tragically young and simply say off we're going to add that the many long list of examples of media biased against trumpet how unfair it isn't. Eight, they just keep adding that the collection and look over the weekend economies from your times, tweeted out a picture of of Trump golfing. Next, to you know Joe Biden, it

oil day service and set up two very different approaches to Memorial day course. The picture taken of tromp was taken several days earlier and heat Trump. Obviously did you ever hear good evokes yet so I'm, but the point is that I think there's a kind of fan servicing the trunk does for for the conservative world that that is, he speaks their language on that issue and there is. There is truth to that too. That argument he just makes it in this completely egregious and excessive way by conspiracy, monk. As he did in this case right, but we gotta get out of here. It's not just the Scarborough thing, even though that's that's really repulsive example of this kind of behavior, where he does sort of it is you go fuel but he's also. In over the course of this pandemic, not really covered

self in much glory. There are some shining woman say you can point out, would enable talked about one in particular, which was the Save Ii C News interview work is very noble and in our view, in asia- and I share that view balanced d- the facts of this kind, which is the distinction between life and liberty, and that we are going to have to accept the loss of both to some degree which is something that must politicians do not say to his credit there's been many more examples of how it's just gone completely off the rails. Like you know, you ve shine, the light on yourself at the risk of melanoma or that you should consider the the intake of certain disinfectants and your veins of that sort of thing. Let leads people to say I don't. I can't trust this arrangement, I'm in it needs

it has a period in which trust in public officials is of paramount importance. Ok, so I think this is where so ably like who's gonna change their mind, right who's, the questions whom it helps them, words that the p people who are inclined to believe Joy, arid speculation, but whether or not a tv host they don't like you know, might have somehow been involved in somebody's. Hidden murder, are there people so numerous that it really is a benefits, his electoral prospects. By doing this, or is it just general form of intimidation that that he is saying that it's not about any of this, but it's about saying, come after me,

John Merman of Snow or John Berman of CNN or John Oliver, whoever it is- and I will you know I will whatever is the worst craziest accusation that some lunatic on Fourchan makes against you. I will publicize it and make your life living hell for a while. So you know why don't go there? That is part of what I think is a kind of raw do kind of political genius on his part, which is that It is mostly done its politicians ought to people in the in the media actually, but it's like Jeff Flake or Bob Corker, or these guys, whose political careers on his own side, he has destroyed in a way that benefited him, because it so scared every other republican that they became. They were

not gonna, do anything to split themselves off very far from him, because the consequences of that we're gonna be so extreme and the benefits of being served. Relatively speaking, on his side, were originally, you know better for them than than than than the alternative but there is no evidence that it works for anybody else, but Republicans right. That's what I'm saying accurately Welfare republic, but that does not happen. We get started backfires when he's trying to leverage that kind of behaviour, the other side, because it has the procedural effect on the other side of having a rallying them around. Running. The opposition around who ever is in his sites on the other side of the Isle, run a story about a presidency has been one of democratic ascendancy right now. Let's move onto job, I'm and Joe Biden going on the interview the radio interview show with Charlemagne Rape got the God

He wants me to that end and Apparently, moreover, mother, apparently There have been quite cars, banking, yes, thank you. Contentious and then shut down early by by the press secretary. That Biden Serve concluded interview by saying, if you vote for trump you ain't black, which he has since apologize, for which, let you know, social media on fire and again my question is: whom did it hurt four Biden to say you ain't black, if you vote for Trump aside from America at Hurt, america- to have these kinds of a group: identity, attitudes being reinforced by the candidate for the present United States by them ragged, and an that kind of thing

A lot of conservatives like jumped on this and then a lot of people who Sir professionally african American on the right and the left saying he's got no right to say what a black person should thank and all that then he apologized for that. But does it hurt him, I don't see how it hurts them in any way she felt the well. First of all, we all recall Bill Clinton being declared the first like presence. I thought, we'd ended those like this. This should be a scandal that that the thing that really was, I thought more outrageous that he said was to claim an endorsement from the end of lazy peanut. He hadn't receive like tat to me is what should outrage people any dinner ready under police appeal which quickly comments and none other that's Andrew, so him will be

because we had to say was not true, because if it were true and the boys, we would no longer be a tax exempt organisation. I mean, I think, is a cab out of Dorothy irresponsible of him, but that sort of resignation, fallacious of of his own recorded that struck me as more concerning as a voter than anything he says about amid the edge any politics of his is ridiculous and good for Charlemagne together. His show is really interesting. I mean he's he's kind of a. He does a version of the sort of Jurgen thing where he he lets his guests kind of talk themselves into a lot of trouble, sometimes and is quite good at getting do that its ways. Incredibly, entertaining. Are there was a startling moment, rob mentioning Joe Rogan with them very Weiss friend of ours at the New York Times? Who did a profile of Joe Rogan or a column about Joe Rogan Thee libertarian former Stanhope comedian podcast her

is the number one person in podcasting almost two hundred million downloads a month for the jargon experience a bro heavy, but political kind of Howard stern wish. The Howard Stern upon casting you might say in some ways and back published this peace, and he Rogan at some point, said properly podcasting that a part of it is it's it's kind of unpolished and that's part of the job. Yes, podcasting? What are the reasons that I resisted? Doing podcast commentary was that I thought that the lack of polish a podcasting might interfere with. Are our commitment to serve doing things at they've in the best possible, most Pa was possible way. So this is something it's on my I'm, my my, but that's not what podcasting, as it served deliberately reference the edges in some ways and a later named Taylor, Laurens, took umbrage and goes on twitter and

as this is inaccurate, and but essentially. Attacks bury for quoting Joe again saying that podcasting as unpolished and Tailor Laurens works for the New York Times is a colleague, so they don't work together in the same sex. But it would be almost as though Abe went on Twitter to attack Noah Work, you know Christine or something like that- and this is an interesting example of Liberal media toto. Terrorism because because bury is idiot, logically distinct from other people at the New York Times, apparently, it's ok, the New York Times to attack, bury or Brett Stevens, where

as long because their conservative and you dont get in trouble and nobody says, delete your tweet and nobody does anything like that. It is staggering. I worked in nine different major media organisations and the idea that it would be acceptable for you publicly in a speech in an aren't. You could write something with spectral, disagreement or like take a counter view in an odd bad from another up, Ed writer, but to attacks, funds are bad and say it's inaccurate or that it spreading a falsehood or something like that on the basis of nothing. No one would ever do she would never have the tailor Lauren but never done such a thing. If she were writing about Paul Krugman, I can guarantee here's. A pet theory I'm working on. So in the trump error there has been, this journalistic new journalistic beat, which is too

RO reporters into the most fevered of swamps of online conspiracy theories on the right well summer, at the daily bees stand the what people NBC News have do their speed and until Laurens, whose whole job is to decipher internet speak for people who are otherwise unplugged in a much more sane and gratifying fashion, explain this world to them and you're. I feel like it's not quantifiable, but by reading these those coverage and how they behave on line is that they adopt quite a few of the traits that they are forced to witness to. To catalogue for posterity on the side of a bunch people who are crazy and otherwise do not deserve a microphone and are lent this leverage in this microphone because they are perceived to be part of a movement of which the president's is apart, or at least sympathetic towards a justifies this level.

Coverage, but it's making them crazy while and because these people are crazy. It's a really good point and I think that your Rogan praise for Joe Rogan brings out the worse than those people, because Joe Rogan is appealing because If you will listen to issue which I have here, he comes at his guests and their topics with a kind of

First of all, he knows how to entertain any lets. Them speak at length, but he also understands the he's he's the amateur asking the expert any. Does that with everyone? Does that with both hunters? He does that with politicians. It there's a reason why you know the interesting tat bit that very had your piece about both Elizabeth, worn and Joe Biden. Ask you begging to beyond Joe Show and were turned on, is that you know that they had prepared questions that he was allowed to ask any, doesn't do that, so he doesn't pretend to be something he's not and that's a huge part of his appeal and his particular his discussions of of sort of traditionally masculine things is is why he has a much you know them more men. Listen to him, the moon, but women listen to him too, and I think it must frustrate to know when the highly polish professional New York Times right pod castors- to see this guy with the massive amount of success he has in it was built organically and he's also not an overnight. Success has been doing this for a long time, not only the demo, the demo, eighteen, forty nine men is wildly underserved

my Blackmore but little commercial world and in the press, but look anybody. Anybody who taps into that demo unapologetically and appeals to what that them at once extremely well and confused The heck out of every other media venue who does not do not not only does not cater to the demo resents without them, So take it. Take a guy who gets two hundred million downloads a month from a podcast that he invents, that until when on Spotify, four hundred million dollars, which was the reason that this peace by bury was done disk it goes from zero to two hundred million podcast downloaded a month, and he says you know what podcasting is his axe and Sir reported. The New York Times gets offended because the New York Times does a highly polished, highly produce podcast, and she says this is accurate, because many of the most successful podcast are highly produce like the New York Times is

or Mp Ares well yeah, because they are profession old news organisations with hundreds of millions of dollars to throw at podcasting Joe Rogan has a microphone. And you know I guess he as a video camera now and he did it, for eleven cents and he got two hundred. You got to two hundred million downloads month. Why? he says, should be listened to not attacked. That is stupidity that Taylor Lauren should be fired for being an idiot Like she should stop is definitely not a been. Neither should ever right about this again. This would be like but that's not her, be to talk about what you know We are doing on Tik Tok, which has an audience and is not irrelevant, but that's just not her field, but but also, but the

The anger you see. The whole point is that she was angry about it because it was a piece by bury about Joe Rogan and therefore was not hostile to Joe Rogan, either from the guild perspective of the New York Times going at an going at amateur that his beaten everybody at their own game or from the perspective of somebody who was trying to explain why a populist. Clearly heterodox streaming video, largely complicated bro. Who would vote for Bernie Sanders? is willing to listen to Brett wine steam and the intellectual dark Webber's as people, which is one of berries, subjects Why you might wanna like just let him talk and discover what it isn't he does so that you can understand this cultural phenomenon instead of trying to choke it in its veto in it. Crib what you can't do anyway, cuz it ain't in crib anymore. It's now he's a

million dollar business that he created from nothing that this shows. This reveals the sort of innate condescension of what the critics like Taylor Lorens reveal in their remarks and criticism of berries, peace, which is that you don't they dont, like they always bring up that he's had Alex Jones on you know, he's had he's had people whose who traffic in conspiracy theories on, and they talk at length that I listened to those shows in particular, because I actually think that the bigger than megaphone you give to someone whose it was completely bonkers about something like Alex Jones is the more they reveal themselves, and I have actually faith in human kind in this sense to figure that out and got my coffee skies, and that is like listening to the guy on the street corner. Ranten Reva she's, if you walk, I m everyday start to think was the matter with this person. So, but the tiller warns, New York Times is approaches to say we have to protect people from this dangerous information because stupid to realise its a conspiracy,

there's a profound profound misapprehension of their level of authority here in this debate, as well of the been this, this group of people who came up through the US through these media organisations and has been lent great authority over the direction in which Those organizations evolve in the aggregate because they knew and we'll talk about it in the meantime movement that there is this, as some rose a group of young millennials who are changing the social norms, these organizations behind this in doing so is it with a collective voice? Go out there. In assuming this metal on your own individually, makes you a target and demonstrates the weakness of your endeavours. All authority. As you know, the tick Tock columnist, you don't have the power to take what the editorial page does answer, is it's the? I bet you would not make that calculation in your own head on the reveal the extent to which

you're, more of an impotent player, then than somebody can actually change the shape. The course of events here is some of its illustrative of something that I'm not sure I can put my finger on, but certainly in a misapprehension of your own authority in your own input will ever get it speaks to why it speaks to the needed that Rogan his filled itself right, I mean like is he's the ultimate anti expert in an age when people have had it with the experts. You know and then sell for him to then assert something trick is the exact dynamic that he's benefited from you know which, as you know, some no nothing elite ray you know restating reality in it had no one actually things as viable, but I mean I'm broke generally speaking, I'm I'm very torn to be honest with you, I don't I I I appreciated the anti expert.

I bent and the need for that. At the same time, I think he contributes to culture Ok, us in a way that camping I don't want to silence and unwanted, you know, but I think I think there is something serve unfortunate and about and am I wish. I agreed Christine with you entirely that that that putting people on like Al Jones and and and a few other cranks than that that are you he also caters to that that should contribute to their diminishing in the in the in the in the public eye. I don't think it does. Sadly, I Commodore. I dont want shutting down, but I think I think it's it's a mixed bag. I mean it's. It's just I think, he's more barometer of where things are. I will say this, which is that

Forty years ago, before CNN and before Larry King became a CNN guy and then the serve figure of fun and Sport Larry King was, the first person really to be a nation wide bra, causticum broadcaster and he D show from midnight till five a m five days a week, and if you were an insomniac as I as you listen to the show. First, dad Hours were interviews, and so the last two hour and with a lot of colleagues in the last two hours were just King dealing with with the whip, collars, and it was the show that you wanted to put down. If you had a book, for example like in the nineteen seventies and I reckon would never. He was a fantastic interviewer. Then I guess he was pretty good later, but he this fantastic and again he never read the book and he said he never read the book because he wanted to be like the audience that was listening, so he would say what you like about

Where are you coming from like defeat out? He wouldn't read it and then try to engage it, an egg mg. It's the author or whatever, in a conversation, about something where he had more knowledge, his listener, he was the stand him for his listener and was trying to ask what since the way listener would who was interested in the subject those being asked about- and these were fantastic in views and it's a style of interviewing the I think can be increased. Really valuable and and does not are taken an odd, where maybe he would obviously talked celebrities whom he knew about, and so we would ask them famous celebrity questions wallet, but its away, Listening information from people by saying tell me who you are tell me what you think tell me who you know why I should pay attention to you

and yet, when you're dealing with figures of high controversy, that really can crack open a perspective that up there, people who go through pre interviews and have questions prepared for their men? You know go through as a way of breaking through the UN authenticity to me, getting to something more authentic and I take apes point that He also like he. He that term geronium sponsors kind of like medicine theory sometimes, and all that, he's a big are undoubtedly whether fanned and he's not he's not hostile talents to HANS he's he's there now they're buddies right, yeah, it's interesting? As you know, he was a stand up: comedian and Anne and an actor like he was on the sitcom news. Radio for for seven years, like Markham

Erin adds a stand up, who you know somebody who spent thousands of ours performing and clubs and therefore developed some kind of an ability to think and talk and move on his feet that you know whoever it is who runs the daily at the New York in I was it at two very skilled show, but Toto and this whole thing where these shows last for two and a half hours, he sometimes leftism. The tenants beat it with. This is the skill he has that the politicians and the people who want to write that the ten allowances in the world who who write from their perspective, don't understand. Santa comedians can go for two and a half hours, but they are constantly thinking about their audience, which is different from thinking about the people in the abstract wishes. But a politician as rights, and that's why he's so appeal? I mean there's a way in which his interaction with each guest is interacting with that ought with an audience that specific that he's a tune to in a way

even a regular skilled, Rita politician is not, I think, right well, so we we had some technical difficulties The middle of the show assuming that we can fix them the sir, I just wanted to say that last week a couple weeks ago I came to talk to you guys about how there was a kind of a dip in listener ship. There we were getting too depressing into same whatever, and we may change it up. Whereof. We changed appraising like that, but though the last two weeks are, our audience has been growing by leaps and bounds and dumb we, you know, Basically, we are now almost triple where we were when we started this day. The? U podcasting in March.

So I want to thank everybody for listing, I hope a apparently you are enjoying it enough to keep coming back. That's how you This is an unvarnished podcast. Is that any other professional broadcaster would lie to you Tell you that our audience is growing by leaps and bounds every day and were never any technical difficulties. It is unbelievable. Show we we don't do that. I don't even know what I am saying this, because of course, if we have massive technical devices, we're just gonna have The show over again for all you know by the way. This is the second version of the show, and I'm just repeating myself from the first version, even though we don't have any technical difficulties as that for yeah yeah, so this is like my daughter, I doubt I'll come home this. My my I said you know. I have this theory about the virus and everything

so she she had. I should have a concussion last year and passed out. She was like what if none of this is actually happening- and you know this is after my concussion I passed out- and this is all going on in my head during the concussion less last may and I was like well, Your heart version rush. You like, I said well, you know that I know the whole point about this filthy. Dick theory is that its unjust provable, It's likely we're all actually living in a simulation. You know that that either that that there's that which who wrote about that for us a than at Peace- About the various ideas about consciousness was are caught the anyway the big article about consciousness, and human consciousness. Was there anyway a difficult area? Yes, there

There is a theory, a broad that you know we are all living in a simulation that we just don't know it right and the whole point about that SIRI, which is, of course, the center of a schizophrenic world you and all that Is that its fundamentally undiscoverable there's no way to get outside it. To show that it is not true, so my daughter could be. We could all just be inside my daughters, You know the period of time between when my daughter, fainted from a concussion- and you know em an end came to say, has that four, and that has that for my benefit, look. I got it. Ok, Christine for Noah, Christine ABLE jump upwards, keep the camel