On today's podcast, we sift through the Mueller report and find that while it ends the Russia-puppet storyline, it is considerably more problematic for Trump when it comes to obstruction—even though any obstruction would have been without an underlying crime. And we discuss the horrid takes on the burning of Notre Dame. Give a listen.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome to the commentary magazine, progress to these Thursday evening teens twenty nineteen- I am John Put words: the editor of commentary, the twelve twenty seventy eight year old, one sleeve intellectual analysis, political probity and cultural criticism. From a conservative perspective, we invite you was always to join us, a commentary magazine dot com, where we give you a few free reason and ask you to subscribe, one thousand nine hundred and ninety for dealers, corruption, Twentyman, a five for an all it's a subscription, including a beautiful monthly magazine in your mailbox eleven times. Here we have just closed
our may issue, which I believe is online today or was online yesterday the three of us in this room, Socio uttered no arrangement. I now I John and senior right editor of a bug. Ringwald high Abe Hygiene Christie wears off today have the as her share the lead article dead of the leader of the issue. The cover line is the Democrats are going crazy. No, as peace examines the pent up policy madness of the left. Having spent pretty much almost nine years in the wilderness in policy terms, after Obama, loss of the house and twenty ten. What this has meant in terms of their wish listing of ideas that are so far out of the mainstream that they in they endanger the Democrats position aid written our neurotic pie
it takes about how most of what we talk about now in politics has literally nothing to do with the problems that ordinary people face, but are all either symbolic or were kind of color selected. There were elections of the real matters that politics can't handle, and I a piece about how the Democrats are crazy, so basically, or are they crazy and many? And if the people you think, I'm crazy like your Cortez and Ill Hano MAR are not the crazy ones. They are the determine ones there, the ideologically extreme ones, but they are not to create the crazy ones, are the people who are the bedding and attitudes, who scared of them to stand up to them? Ok, so that's
that is a really great issue. Go online, read our pieces Red Christine Rosen's, amazing peace. On the on the meritocracy, varsity blue scandal, Terry teach out on Henrik Gibson are or new feature by Rob long. My co host ungloved culture called Hollywood commentary which is about why it is that today's Hollywood to Executive camp get their mistresses in good parts and movies, and why on earth that happened and a lot of other good stuff? So please please check it out. Well, what's going on today, not much right, the news that love very slow lose day. We come to you after having spent an hour perusing what we could of the Mulder report, which, by the way, is not as long as everybody said it was its basically a hundred and seventy pages with a lot of appendices. So
it's not the four hundred page monster that and in its quick read because read it all read most of it, I would say an end at two things, one of which is this whole hysteria for two weeks about the reductions and other gonna be it was gonna lie. Like some ridiculous rejected thing. There There are many reactions and all the reduction seem to be about. Either ongoing cases like the metaphor case, which Pollyanna forts prosecution, which and quite resolved itself, has a lot of. Foreign intelligence matters interwoven into it and the other is the Russia, Russia intelligent stuff, all of which being rejected either because their direct grants ray testimony or because they would reveal sources and methods and threaten the lives of people who are speaking towards elegance agencies. But them. But on the most important matters there is literally no difficulty in
reading the heart. I almost everything right so so that that ludicrous tests for weeks of nonsense, hysteria least been retired. However, I would say that reading the report that no amount of nonsense hysteria will be proved to be retired, whereby we're back in we're back in the. Sort of swampy really different phase. So the report, as it is, is the piper created into sections. One collusion and two obstruction and collusion bed is really pretty Sensitive and wish the most surprising, I would say, although heartening element of it, was the Trump Tower Meeting, which was essentially non event. According to the findings of this to this region, man afford seemed kind of collusion in a minute,
an established so that the quotas, the office, did not identify evidence of a connection between men for sharing appalling data and Russians. Russia's parents in the election, even the robbery skeptical of whatever pulling. Data demonstrates collusion. Will we find man affords me alias? Sharing private pulling data is an act of colluding with a foreign power bags, but they are holding it's not. You know it's not like the gig. You know the codes to Fort Knox as it was damn. It was done with the intent and knowing intent that it would be transmitted to get a coverage. Former russian linked president of Russia, who would coop would insure his reception in Russia quote at a very top level. So there was we some understanding that this would he and I have pulled transmuted ladder mere in the word level. You matter here is Paul D C. Hillary Clinton there may wary unpopular with the white, the males, the males, where the unpopular,
our thinking. If it were something worth something one goddamn pole I mean, am I taking crazy pills? People you know did not for release embargoed forever from the Mariposa this the office determine that certain individuals associated with the campaign like two investigators about camping contacts with Russia and, if taken other actions, fear with the investigation right. Ok, let let's put it this way. Ok,. We ve said on this podcast them now said they could have. Spired with Russia to win the election. They probably would, if their. If, if there is a modality in which Russia was offering the key to winning the election and the key to destroy Hillary Clinton or whatever it all this they would. They have concluded. The ads looks like they would have, because they were also give no the key
couldn't you do the game, it couldn't should straighten, didn't know what they were doing. People were running campaigns. It would never on campaigns in the matter four case a man of war. It wanted to do stuff and do it for free and do this in order to get back in the good graces of the of of his ukrainian funders because he was broke and you know, enjoy gauge and gigantic ponzi scheme against the IRS and everything to get he needed money. He lived this insane lifestyle. And though she was using it just to say, look all these good things, I'm doing for you. You know pony up, let's put me back on the payroll, but that has nothing to do with Trump. It's bad that he hired a Ukrainian. He hired a bad ukrainian asset to be his campaign manager, but that doesn't right to impeachment level yet knows initiatives
Thank you, but he was received. No, he was bright use bragging to draw a business right, ok, so the consider the collusion side, the conspiracy side, the idea the Trump is a russian puppet, though, why the attractive to a great many people be, of course it would establish the illegitimacy of the presidency right- and this is the very emotionally very important thing to people who cannot cope with the fact that Trump became president. That is almost certainly gone or its. It should be enough gone that only really crazy people continue to believe it. The obstruction of justice part is where the report does not, I believe, fulfil the claims that were made for it by William BAR the attorney general are or at the very least. I am not saying that he must characterizes it, but the report is, I would say, totally and spiritually far more hostile,
two trump, the question of of struck him than one gathered from bars original letter. But just me bar did not lie of facts. Factually port says we. We were unable to continue to come the interest that anti German also said, and that first letter he quoted the last sentence of the report, which says we could not find that he obstructed. But neither are we exonerating him from the charge of instruction that did appear in bars original letter, but I press conference, if he gave this morning in which he said they examined. Ten cases in which Trump might have obstructed and did not find obstruction in any case is. I don't have described it in the is actually accurate, but totally not act quote the president's
for to influence the investigation were mostly unsuccessful, but that is largely because the persons who surrounded the president declined to carry out orders or a seed to his requests. The report demo rates on a couple of occasions, and you can argue with what the with the US fact of these orders would have been, but it is illegal a couple of occasions have the people around the president were ordered to do something that would have been pretty. You know, would have its obstructed this investigation and they said now rice. It was a hero in us than the thing now. Ok, so, but Nick out to go to drugs and down again trumps sitting in a room saying you go, tell him to go screw himself. You go tell him he's gotta. Do that, like he says to somebody. You oh tells Rosen's time that mauler has gotta be moved off this. The instructed reconciled to lie. Ravenstein
declined to lie right, but Mcgann will it's either again arose in style. He said you go tell him. To move Mahler off this ok. Mcgann refuses to cooperate and nine months later, a story comes out in the New York Times and the Washington Post. That says the damn again, who was the White House Council, wasn't directed to fire Mahler and did not do so. Tromp has this is all in their report. Trump has a fit. I was going to use an adjective before fed them. I saw site two calls began to office and says you tell that's not true and began says I can tell them. That's not true, it is true and he said TAT I ever used the word fire. I tell you to fire. Am I never used the word fire and the port goes into send in a sense of detail, saying Trump weak
discerned intent here, because Trump Mcgann in fact did not say the trump used. The word fire. He said in a move them off number one and number two trump may have forgotten me said it Trump want began to do it. He was just blowing off steam, they did. They can't establish, intend because he did not use the word fire. It's a fascinating little portrait of what it must be like to work for trump when he flies into a rage, because he says to me again what we're taking notes another guy- that's in funding Nokia, this survey, so we said what you were taking notes and began. Siege was taking notes because I'm a quote real lawyer what nobody said. I'm a real lawyer, because Trump said I have had. I had great lawyers, I'm very like Roy Conan Roy COM Net it took a note: okay, so there's some contradictory stuff about the colony stuff. So there is some relevant quotes. Mcgann and Dylan said. That said, the fact that night
sessions, nor Rosen, seen objected to replacing call me gave them peace of mind that the president's decision to fire Commie was not an attempt to obstruct justice later mechanical and urge the president to permit calmly to resign. But the president was adamant that he be fired. Right, ok seems to be a bit of a contradiction here in terms of the nature of fired. What does what will I already, but first while we were talking about getting smaller, fired, not call me fire. The first thing with Mcgann was about getting Mahler fired. So this is now the question of what happened with common rights or the co me which, which happens before, there's a mala right, because it was the coma firing that led to the appointment of Mahler. So oh Trump says to call me. I go easy on Flynn. For five months later, they have some other sessions. Call me whatever Trump decides who wants to fire call me
Jared. His son in law tells them. This will be very popular because democratic homely, because of how he can mountain gave. That statement about Hilary then reopen Anna and other things. Just a brief. Ok, it's just a brief aside, We have all read all this stuff. All of this is none of this is all of us who followed this really closely. This was all report, in fact, to the point where it cites. Basically, all the reports you ve already read. Yes, said the Washington Post, bright Pisa. It's basically an account. It's like a book, so short book count of the butler. Rob from inside them all approve what were the movements of this administration right and what they looking for, what they were looking at, nor all that so here's here's here's bottom line, and then maybe you should death. So my bottom line is that. The report says we can approve instruction, but we can't exonerate on obstruction. Tone of the report is.
Boy in a bunch of these cases, it sure doesn't look good that Trump in trying to obstruct, but we can't we, he had come up with intent and in any case this is a very complicated matter and in the third hard case which they dont, really talk about, except to have a twenty five page constitutes argument at them at the end of the report about why what they we're doing was legitimate. They for investigating obstruction of something weird was, according to the first half of the report, no underlying crime, so that, in effect to what they were investigating, was the behaviour of Trump toward them, the mob investigators and the mob our process altogether and not Russia, but they did with Russia. They found very they indicted. Fourteen people
they found the internet research agency had been mucking around our elections and not a bad stuff, but they did they did they pretty much say there was no conspiracy between the term campaign, Russia. So everything goes to how people related how hump handled mauler period pretty much longer than that done. I'm Junior comes off in this looking portable, but he's not you. So how do you know me wasn't, but who is actively working with Wikileaks? Wikileaks tells him to do something, and he does it on several occasions, but they didn't charge him with anything now because he was not because in order to be charged with a conspiracy, he had to be injured. Really, you part of the consumer, see the steel, these documents not to publish them. That doesn't mean I had a sordid horrible human being for working with these. Be I'm not talking about that. In fact, the report- I would say you know you- can
with this report without thinking that the Mahler people hate Trump he'd, disgusts them their disgusted by his conduct. They ve never seen anything like some somebody publicly trying to get people to stay quiet and not after them by you, know theoretically, may be floating pardons and all that, but they could, and so the report there's a tone of frustration throughout the obstruction section that its life. We really wanted to get him. We wanted them so that we want to him so badly, and I would say ultimately that's the most exculpatory thing about the report for Trump really as a literary matter really literary critic. Is that the rope it suggests that its authors desperately wanted to find that here that serve to justice and could not do so. That's the esoteric they want it. Yes,
I think there are a couple fascinating things you're, one of which is used to say we stay briefly. The whole idea that there is nothing new here is amazing, because how long and how often we heard we we don't know what Mahler has there's thereof things we have to. You know I'm, which is which was at the fine inference. You know it was a but, but it turns out, we can't did known for a long time. I feel what is so fascinating about their inability to get him sub substantively on obstruction. It kind of those back to this trump come you occasion, style and camp in question of sugar be taken seriously. Should it be taken literally, should he be taken symbolically it it it when he is in sort of tantrum mode and what not it's there it. There is a real question about. Do we listen to him? Do we do what he says? Do we brush it off and I
in a bizarre way it served him will help right. So this raises two interlocking questions. I would say one is theirs. This ongoing argument on the right, among particularly among p, obviously among people who don't like Trump, whether or not Ellie cone brought this up at the very beginning. You go into the administration to work for the administration, because you are an american patriot and even if you dont like trumpet, no trust them or whatever the country you when you should do it right. That then came up a cropper against still Bannon others, making sure that nobody who didn't like Trump wait and see ministrations extent possible. I think it's clear from what I know a sad and wave, and what a lot of this revealed is is that, if anything the norm all of the norms, the trump has broken. Ah, he.
There were lines that were not crossed because the staff obeyed the norms, even when he didn't write. He then, for it is replete with Trump saying: don't do this go. Do that go do the other thing and it not happening. Now it has Trump was aware of these norms, but everybody around him was why or they were like, or I remember, I don't want to go to jail like I'm not doing this, you can't make order me to do something. That's gonna make me go to jail or I'm not doing it, because it's crazy given and maybe tomorrow, you'll we you'll, be. Think yourselves, you that's that's. I think that this report on resolve a bold murky questions on shore and if your work inform your saying, does even really want me to do that. You know that we know there ve been policy things where he announces way to sort of
Hey draw drop. My Syria that's right logistics. Here I write so Jim took seriously. Is that we're pulling I'm Syringa medicine I met. That's it. I'm done here right here. It is six months of five months later and fill in Syria we're going to keep people in Syria. Of bad ass. You know, hadn't blown is cool. You know we could have stayed if you wanted to stay. I am perfectly you know. If he couldn't stand anymore, he couldn't stand me more, but so It turns out that this that the two hundred and forty years of american democracy wasn't destroyed by trumps, elect because enough, among other things, because enough people working in trumps orbit would not do would not behave in ways that would have been destructive of of the system and protected the system in some fundamental sense they were all the deep state they wouldn't just to Trump told them to
they. They they held off radio and contrary to what the tramping wing of the party would like to believe. The deep state was dedicated this case. If we define, must repay me just joking, no but yeah, but does this the the opera, nickel appointees and the bureaucratic apparatus around the president was dedicated to saving the president from himself right the destroying this presidency, but to protecting- and this is where the parallel- which I think is a constant in some way, with Richard Nixon is so clear. Although trumped up, drink and x and drag as the famously Nixon would get drunk at six thirty and call Haldeman, Ehrlichman in and say bomb palmed, the Brookings institution, and what to do this and the Jews are doing? I go investigate the Jew, whatever whatever he said, and they knew perfectly well not to not actually to effect any of these cycle
schemes that Nixon was em cause. He was just raging employing off steam as a policy, Gordon Liddy, who was himself psychotic fork. Four was happy to do whatever I'm just saying like it's an interesting so trump. With very few people around him whom who knew him right? I mean you know right and not for a couple of months, banded normal little bed No one really knew him except his kids, who did Jerry? Who d who seem to have not excess, could judgment and stuff, and so they were also getting to know each other in this incredibly hothouse difficult atmosphere in which Trump could say spot in a kind of trompe in shorthand, which is to say that he would say acts, but he didn't mean it because you know he lies like he breeze and so
five minutes later he'd forget the lie that he told in the first place, which is why it so hard to discern intent according to the account that is, that is in this report that you know he didn't say things definitively. He put nothing on paper. You know he was often serve emotionally. Creaky hated leagues was emotionally crazed and Bob, and so you know how can you discern what his purpose was? Sufficient coltan insanity defence rights, but I think I am a friend of mine- has of propose this somebody, you all know, but I'm aka cause hope you'll probably want to flesh about himself, but he said the following, which is that. So, there's all this small great, these six or seven cases where they serve go into what he might have wanted to try to when it was too much might have wanted to try to obstruct
they couldn't get a moderate in part because, let's say he's floating pardons for common and man afford but he doesn't pardon them so where's the obstruction. He doesn't do this sudden, the deep he says be strong, but then Flynn turns on him, so he didn't do anything to help Flynn. So how you know, maybe his intent was to get Flynn not to cooperate with smaller, but Flynn does because Trump doesn't give him anything. It would have to be the quid pro quo that created the obstruction and so he's sitting there now totally lost my train of thought. It so bright and please move on someone else say something I hold in point my forgotten. So there your moment we embargoed over his keys little bed when it comes to the obstruction thing I made it sound very exculpatory. I don't think it's a special exculpatory. The fact that people declined carry out the president's orders doesn't to me exculpate,
let's not prosecutable, but that doesn't mean that he's planning ain't, nobody he put in he left in the part that says it's not exculpatory. I'm I'm I'm sympathetic here, because I dont know what bar could have done. Otherwise, the obstruction question, because it is a murky it is, it does serve. You ve, been do, throw everything added and then come up with this conclusion about about not finding not there to have been observed. So I don't know what really he could have done other than to sort of gear that bottom line and then let the report speak for itself a mature. Well, when I was gonna saying that what we can do better, we probably should is that give this press conference before this came out, which was in everybody prejudged it before it happened. He had this little aside and which you talk. How Donald troubles essentially the victim here that he felt very persecute
by this thing that he would see, knew he was innocent and, as a result, many press. It was an unprecedented situation leading us. His presidency and our but a leaks in the investigation just made him feel like it was a prisoner in his own administration, and you knew I was gonna drive people crazy, I'm absolutely did and he was later asked by CBS Rapporteur Paolo read where he drew that from was he editorializing and dumb. He said now that in the report, so there's probably other evidence of that. In the report I found only one thing that suggests tubes to support. It spoke evidence. The case of the president was anger by both the existence of the rush investigation and the public reporting that he was under it. Education is by the way before Mahler, which he knew was not truly long. Commies representations, the president It is a virus advisers that, if people thought Russia helped him when the election would detract from what he had accomplished. All of this is not especially knew you know this.
Talking about it for two years now and the president comes, but the person, the perception that he was under investigation, was hurting his ability to conduct for inhalation relations, particularly with Russia. Again. We all knew this, but that's that sort of supports what would bar was saying so seems likely. Average directed at home was razor. Ok, but look so again to the obstruction its own most like Trump would have been happy if the if the investigation were obstructed, but that he didn't lift a finger to obstruct it. Let me let me explain to you what I mean there The passage about Michael Cohen, the weeks before Michael Cohen, decided that he was going to cooperate. Helen was talking every day. The president's personal council and the trunk organization was paying his legal fees at this time, which was
important to him. Obviously, because work was promising to or whatever who gets a list before Cohen began to cooperate with the government. The president publicly and privately urged going to stand message and not flip. We remember this part from Cohen's hearing corn recall the pay thence Personal Council telling him tat is telling him that he would be protected so long as he did not go. Rogue. Ok, so then, after it was reported that cone intended to quote with the government, however, the present accuse cone of making up stores in order to get himself out of an unrelated jam called calling a rat multiple occasions. Public suggested the cones family members had committed crimes. So what is this tat? What this tells us is. It was like my don't cooperate now by the way. Cooperating doesn't cooperating. Corporal does not in itself mean obstruction, but don't go operate, dont, go, don't flip, don't go rogue, but
I'd from paying as legal fees. He was doing anything to help Cohen didn't do anything to get Cohen, not go rogue or to stay strong and not flip. He didn't act, no way to obstruct justice except to say boy really, love it. If you two x wire z and at some point it occurred to Cohen dead, it was a Patsy. I mean that was basically what he said when he testified, then he was a schmuck, though you, the ultimate schmuck. He was like. Carrying dirty water, trumpet Trump was gonna, do absolutely nothing to help them stay out of jail or anything. Wasn't gonna help him get out of his financial, whatever he went and seldom had, he said you know what I'm a schmuck, I'm not doing. Setting more trumped then turns around cause, I'm a rat and says he's terrible, which also doesn't exactly so.
This kind of the parrot diplomatic thing here, which is that prompt, would have been happy if nobody talked to you now know you talk to work, you know Mahler and ended stonewall them and did all that right. You would have been totally happy. But he didn't do anything for it and by the way, there's precedent for this too, like a bunch of people went to jail during the why water investigation, because they decided they weren't gonna talk they they weren't, they weren't gonna, talk to love there can star and whoever pray them now blocking and whoever proceeded can star. Oh and am work were found guilty of contempt of word and stuff, like that. Macdougall went to jail for eighteen months simply for refusing to testify after being subpoenaed. So the big thing like you, you have to
do something in order to obstruct justice. And that's the thing in the report is a conscious, be attitudinal Canada's, not attitude. Now, that's a that really on. That's that's doing this report in a disservice. If they demonstrates on a couple of occasions that the President asked his two people around him to do things they did not do and if they had it would have cost. You did something that could possibly I actually correct. That is correct, but the question then is did this is work goes too intent. What they could prove was at the end the intend to have them do it sooner than he that it didn't Mimi wanted them to do it. You know it's. I do know if your friends as jump off the empire state building, do you jump off the empire state building. Emily has that I mean some something some other things are that if these we're talking about a bunch of different things here, but I'm occasions they would have constituted an incentive for other concept. It would have been ambiguous. The affair it had actually occurred, Rousseau
did to pound we're talking about a bunch of different epithets areas. Like tens separate episodes yourselves in writing among them are just the people around them down again and and shot spices, rights, previous and others just not doing what they remember there, also in testifying, which is where they got their information on this aside from press reports thereon I'll try to keep themselves out of jail too. So one of the things that is in their interest is in saying he may have to they did do at, but I didn't do it. I ended an end there. We can presume that they're telling the truth. People don't lie under oath very often all this, but it was in their interest to say I do it right out, which is in fact, as I say, one of the things that protected that as per day did our system from Trump. If you think it the protection part partially, I think again is where it doesn't say this in the report, but we, the bizarre unprecedented nature of trumps presidency comes in, which is
we don't know what he didn't know. We don't know he seems to have thought that the role all of the attorney general was to be Roy. Cone was to be his personal lawyer in government. I mean he literally seem to believe this. He kept saying I want Eric hold, it will Eric holder. Yes, our culture said that he was. He was a bomb as wing man and he protected him in various ways, and olive tree generals have done this here and there, in the other, what he meant Heath. He was right, Coon. Now the attorney general's, not Roy Coney statutory responsibilities, including at some points. You know that things that would require maybe to be at loggerheads with the White House but Trump. I know that. Most every other politician that America knows this, but Trump who has ever spent fives, didn't spend five seconds thinking about government or how everything works didn't know now, so his intent in some of these cases
could have been entirely out of ignorance because you have to knowingly obstruct justice. By definition, you have to have corrupt intent. The report goes and in enough most detail about corrupt intent and how its very it's a weird standards, a high standard, but you still have to show corrupt intent and they just couldn't do it and they wanted to that's all I'm saying about the time. The report they wanted to. They saw wanted to have negative, just said in the most discredited port now of the asked five years if they could have just said that as feed was right and Trump told Michael Cohen, to lie about from Tower Scottie adds to the house. They would have done so eagerly. So funny about that report is that there are many instances in in the Mulder report where things are so clear, cut about Trump, not having done it, but that, but in that case Trump card
they didn't instruct Michael, come to delay the Congress so right eye. I so on say mean so this. The standard that we have here is for trumpets is great, because it such a low bar were sent his ease exonerated by this, only in so far as he is not directly implicated in a criminal conspiracy. Every element of this report demonstrates that he's both incompetent and really generally not not be bored kind of guy. Maybe you didn't break the law. Buddy probably wouldn't minded it had it been broke. No is son, was Jason was working with conduit for russian intelligence. Sarah Sanders lied to the press through her teeth and admitted as much too your council under an under oath investigation. Everybody looks terrible, it is
tat. Look. The report is terrible. It is terrible, it is embarrassing, and, and while it get frustrates the end and should silence crazies, who believed that Putin has been Marian adding Trump, and that belief is that you know all Trump has been a criminal enterprise out of the White House. Pro trump people should not be looking at this, and thinking that this is good for the country that the president has been revealed after you know, five hundred thousand hours of investigative testimony to be as a moral, unprincipled, solemn, cystic and and caring about what is and what is not an appropriate act for the leader of the free world. It's bad! It's a bad report and
it's not a witch hunt. If it were witch hunt he would and they would have Seti obstructed justice. I mean the very fact that it that it cannot come to the obstruction of justice charge, absolves mauler of the idea that he was on a witch hunt, because if he was on a witch hunt, he reveal that there were no witches, but even reveal that there was. You know, a wonderful. You know. Norms respecting good person sitting in the oval office either and with that I need to because we had such an anxiety riddled morning. Looking at the time to get through this report, we could all use some com and that's why I want to talk to you, but the common comfort blanket from opera image, because there's we need to suffer through another sleepless night. The luxurious waited blanket, I'm talkin about, helps you relax, so you can fall asleep and stately naturally designed
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one more point before we move on to the tragedy and note, madam, which is since the report part one finds that there was no piracy with Russia. The wheel key point. Aside from whether or not he obstructed justice is, there was no underlying crime right in Watergate. There wasn't underline crime, which was a burglary at the Democratic National committee. Various other campaign finance relate. You know, sir we'll doggery at the committee re elected president over over monies. He they prove that there was no underlying crime and its so easy to simply in diet and assume, as an aggressive prosecutor, that you can get it fiction when you allege obstruction against a person who has now remember in impeachment, is Nata. The ordinary legal proceedings and Trump, if TAT, the issue that it would be impeachment Nata and not a court case, but
if there was no underline crime, I am stand that there's this idea: it's not the crime, it's the cover up, but there still has to be a crime obstruct so question, then, is what is he? What what was he attempting to obstruct and they can't theorize on this? The theory might be that you know. I think I said that that other he was worried that the that that Mahler would go rogue and just to investigate everything and find that did something in two thousand and seven and whose taxes and data for that, and that would be the end of it. He also the question is what happens next and don't think this is a debt issue, because, unlike the attorney General Motors as that Congress Cannon, has the capacity to and should validly regulate the
notion that the President obstructed, just as they can establish it, but it wouldn't have in their purview to prosecuted, even if they could, according to the attorney general bar, is the prevailing legal theory and Justice Department that they can't prosecute the president. This is a constitutional matter. There is one remedy for a president. Well, it's a long while they couldn't establish it that couldn't not establish it. So the bar all has been punted over to the house, and I aren t you. There will be a call all in a cry and Gue among democratic activists and therefore among democratic twenties too, have something happen in the house relating to impeachment along and shrubs reaction. The I think I think on the obstruction question. There's there's just too much too for them to sink their teeth into to be too to resist at does yeah I got it I haven't. I can imagine that they would say that no over just gonna talk about HR one from now on right, but it will not play
the way. The leap, Russia Gate story did I mean I mean. People are absolutely exhaust and put the story. I mean even the even if there are also fascinated but there's definite fatigue here, and it's not a sexy story because at specially because it's the details of our murky, we have to go through and sort of pick pick through things that were said to whom and who acted new didn't that that is at its also not a sexy store in its also not obstruction. It's up tempted obstruction right as obstruction didn't occurred. Nobody where we want acknowledges that nothing was impeded in the conduct and conduct. Some will say it again: impeachment political manner, not a legal matter, meaning that the finding of a high crime or misdemeanor by the house, Edmund on the charges of high crimes in atmosphere, but by the house can be, can follow any model,
including saying he had tat. He wanted to obstruct justice and that's bad enough because he runs illegals whatever. If they can a vote and get a majority vote, they can impeach him and then the Senate will the Senate will will not convicted. On the basis of what, in this report, the Senate will knock and victim. Now, policy clearly does not want to go down the road to impeachment me whose sensible people and our should want this to die this time again, with what I started with our articles on the Democrats going crazy pursuing the Russia obstruction angle into two twenty nineteen and twenty twenty, when they do when the goods were not gotten, is a suicidal act. People should remember, including Democrats, should remember what happened when Republicans impeached Bill Clinton and ended up
you're getting over nearly losing the house in ninety eight New Gingrich having to resign Bob Livingston having to resign and Bill Clinton Skating, loose and free. Through the rest of his presidency, this is not a good political move for them, even though everybody's amen corner will be aiming so high man of Democrats who want this to happen, a huge amount of republicans who will prove. Firstly, we want this to happen also because they will want to use it against democratic, including outing trump, wants to be impeach, but I think he you now certainly can see how I give of him now being able to take on the Clinton mantle and sank. Can't we get. It cannot go back to work, helping the
african people. What is wrong with you all you're trying to do is make is make it impossible for me to do the job for which I was hired. That's wrong of you and you should stop it now. You had two years to get me and you didn't get me now, go back to work and solve our demographic problem or something like that. That's a very potent message and support, a potent message now, as it was in ninety ninety, eight or ninety. Ninety seven, ninety eight and each and I dont know Trump trumps weird, so I don't know that he would follow it, but it's like such a such a lay up. I can't imagine that he wouldn't now, Monday night. Obviously we want in horror as noted on, but caught fire who even knew you know that somehow. I didn't really understand that that that it soup
structure was based on would that that was like a new one. I guess I somehow forgotten that it was built before get out. The great dome in Florence made unnecessary to have joint wooden structures holding up building, since it was build three centuries before brutally he's down. But but there was, there was on fire and. The astonishing thing to me is that we we are such a hot, take culture now and we are so and the west and the end leftist liberals and leftist thought leaders in the West are now so committed to an anti western anti christian Anti in our civilization all mandate that the bench Piero saying that wanted this great hallmark of western civilisation was blue. Bring down was taken to be white supremacy by italian Levin right,
but not just she, others other said it, and then I eleven is completely discredited and deserves to be removed from reposed a clear and occupy. She teaches journalists. A professor of architectural history of Harvard P low Del Rio said there was something liberating in the fire because we were being liberated from a symbol of a stern domination that has lasted for too long talk about Bolshevik right well, Bolshevik. I remember what that is its Taliban, that seed outlets? Let's, let's outlets, destroy the let's destroy the statues, let's burn down. You know this is. A hot- and this is a professor of Architecture
Harvard university- there was a fantastic marked twitter account with a couple hours after this happened. That said, you know we need to preserve the history of this, but we also need to move into the future and the urban mixed use space that could be designed. Edison s, hand, initiatives, yeah, really clever as a parity, but it didn't take long for that parity to mimic already we are already taken overtaken by people actually began to envision. You know they arrive in mixed you space, so we could develop out of this kind of this tragedy I mean there was there. Was there were some lunacy on the right is well. This idea that you know that this that this fire represented the year was some with some kind of symbolic representation of you know our secular age. If, in fact, it was euros solely the result of a construction accident, the construction being done not to destroy that destroy the cathedral butter, but to save at him
membership replenishing, which is not exactly the way you destroy it now, and then people's Assisi Peck, nor the professor at ethnic, universally saying that what we? What what's revealed here is that the culture in which the cathedral was built, meaning largely twelfth and thirteenth century. France was superior to our own because it was signed. So much connection so connected to you know the divine and all of us a lot of these courts by the way confinement Commentary magazine that com, where Christine Rosen has written a great piece about they react to this. She has an end, but I mean so if you go from right to left. What you have is this this tragedy, that by definition, sort of has no meaning that to say again, unless
we discover that it was arson or something like that which apparently you know which we have no reason to think it was. This was an act so then to end and and starvation lee- and this was a powder keg- is for some reason the way that the scaffolding was built to help renovated. Put it exactly in the place where the whole place don't flames of something went wrong. It doesnt have meaning tragedies, don't have meaning they are not that the whole point of it and and and too we have invested with symbolic metaphorical, meaning, is an act of infamy spiritual, infamy in some way. Because then you, then you are removing. You know the a man of of chance and bad luck and and how that is a real thing that happens in the world you're. The only thing that does have- meaning, I think, is what happened in the aftermath witches and its when it's good will, which is all
pledges to give money to the hills, bad, even that is that, because the penalised, because, at the piano family pledges hundred million euros and then its rival family pledges? Two hundred there were others already pledges. Like seven hundred fifty million dollars in twenty four hours to help refurbish the cathedral, that will obviously go away way up, and so what a people immediately said. Oh, what were you doing this in Mali You know it's like you're, so it's bad added to help rebuild a cathedral. Then there was serve amazing moment. The the sort of gadfly journalist Yasser Lee says: hey, let's raise money for the three burnt churches in Louisiana on Twitter. When, where did six only one point, eight million dollars were raised in two days by this. Basically by this one too, the guy's impulse.
But an animal rearing rating, also the the capacity for compassion and sympathy for this horrific series of church mornings and Louisiana exactly, but I mean what why one does not this notion that life is a zero sum game in which somebody somebody putting up money to restore one of the great building he's on the planet. Earth is by play, that money is doing something bad because he's not spending it on. The thing I like is just repulsive human and end. The problem is that our identity, politics now rewards people for having these ideas, but also a huge part populism on the right. Don't why why we wasting money over there or on them when it's all right, Lings version of it and rendering it s? Only guess you, as a white christian mail, are discriminated against and wrote down upon, and obstacles are poorer for your path and success. Right. So
is that right, but in this case we are talking about one, the remarkable things that humanity at Americans and and whatever, but which is there that something really horrible happens and p pull our stirred too. You'll, mercenary generosity of a sword that you now based on the way people talk about how horrible everybody is and how terrible everything is selfish, everybody is and how we all bowl alone in everybody's a monster. Nobody cares about everybody's now watching porn on their phones. You know Suddenly everybody on earth serve unites in horror and and purpose in the should that this cannot be allowed to stand, and obviously miracle of them. The real miracle here was that the fire was put out and that the cathedral didn't collapse and that the superstructure is now still there.
You really can rebuild it and rebuild it, and then, of course, is the fear friends. Our memory, as in others, have that you know somehow a bad architecture. People are somehow take this over and you know put an. I am pay pavilion. Without moving from the Louvre onto the top of how to download, I don't owe my eyes, I imagine this will be a restoration and not as an end, not a reconstruction, but the spy are there having the design? Yes, I'm not going to rebuild it as it was designed in the nineteenth century, not originally part of those that twelve fourteenth century structure I think, Well, not restricting the up, but take another might also be an element of selection by his here, because in a week when we come to all these hot takes most on twitter sometime. Are published, but nobody nobody's makes a lot away with by saying you know, this is tragic
rebuild it as it was. That's, probably the vast majority of people's response. You just don't see it because it some enormous. It was so interesting watching in switching unchecked channels, as this was happening, because there's nothing to say right and there's a cameras on Notre Dame and really what you're watching is to see the moment at which the first day that someone got video of the spire class and go to see whether or not the building was going to was going to collapse in on itself so the cameras, IRAN and then you have you no vampire just honor Vampa thing and NBC was great because it have George, why our friend George Waigel on talking about the spiritual meaning of the cathedral and Elizabeth Lever, architectural historian, who was quite not a bit if you went out it's like why You know it's it in their view, met with their been movies about at em you now, with Victor Hugo, where road death hunchback of note, madam,
and which, by the way, is not to be pretentious. That's not actually the title of the novel. The novels called noted on the party that the hunchback of knowledge, about which is the witch they vulgarized title four or for fruit for the book no like also everyone's of testing at their theories about fighting fires. To note that everyone, including president, I now that was great- it's like I don't understand. Why are they going in lieu? What about the relics of anyway? Oh it's, it's up at the vampire thing. It's like, I don't know serve like when you used to watch it. When I was a kid my would occasionally watch you know like the India five hire some some race. Like two hundred lap race and sickly you're, watching it for the crashes right. That's her watching you not watching it goes. The cards are just going around and around that around Iraq that boring your watching to see of a car crashes and Jack he steward and everybody else I'm Euro would just serve like have to say you know, author,
a great effort to change the wheel there. If the pits thought you know cause, they had nothing to say as they were just at all. You know they were just waiting to talk about the crash, and that was a little bit what this was watching. This was like there was something ghoulish Lee weird and then just to have these inane tv people who talk about a subject about which they have no capacity to speak great architecture, bit medieval architecture, gothic architecture, catholic practice. What goes on inside a catholic church? What the relics are, what the relics areas? This is not their topic. You know there. They all went to like give out communication school at the University of Arizona, I'd really there in a position to get out to provide. As I say, that's why George ways of Amazing Tier George Waigel talking on NBC and everybody else like had nothing to say. So.
This is a terrible tragedy and you know there will hopefully be a glorious restoration and everybody who said stupid things on the engine. It should be ashamed of himself and with that we can bring this to a close, Christine, we'll be back with us for all of our launching listeners, have existed and pays off and and
healthy and happy and dead, remembering are terrible times and eating a lot and drinking lot and wolves talked here Monday. So for aid and Noah and jump onwards, keep the camel burning.
Transcript generated on 2019-12-07.